>> Announcer: From San Francisco it's theCUBE. Covering Red Hat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back, everyone. We are here live in San Francisco, the Moscone West for the Red Hat Summit and we're covering three days of wall-to-wall coverage. I'm John Furrier with my co-host John Troyer. Our next guest is Jennifer Cloer, creator and executive producer of The Chasing Grace Project, formerly CUBE alumni, was on at the CloudNOW awards at Google. Great to see you. >> Great to see you, thanks for having me. >> So obvioulsy Open Source has been amazing growth, okay, and it has kind of democratized software. >> Right. >> You've got a project in my opinion that I think is democratizing, getting the word out on the tech issues around women in tech and more importantly, it's inspirational, but it's also informational. Take a minute and explain what is the project Chasing Grace? Obviously Grace, Grace Hopper. >> Right. Right, The Chasing Grace Project is a documentary series of six episodes about women in tech. The name does lend itself to Grace. We named it after Grace Hopper because she really exemplifies the grit and the excellence that we're all chasing all the time. It's also this idea that we're chasing the idea of grace in the face of adversity. It's not always easy but the women who we've interviewed and talked to exhibit amazing grace and are super inspiring. So the series doesn't shy away from adversity but it certainly focuses on stories of resilience. >> And when did you start the project and is there episodes? Is it on Netflix? >> Yes. >> Is it on DVD? >> (laughs) Let's hope. We hope so. We started the project, excuse me, about a year and a half ago. I put a call for stories out in a number of women in tech forums I belong to, was inundated with responses. Women are ready to share their stories. Spent every Friday for about four or five months on back-to-back calls with women, produced the trailer last May, a year ago, released it in September, and since then it's been a whirlwind. Lots of interest. Lots of men and women wanting to share their stories, as well as people wanting to underwrite the work, which is fabulous because it relies on sponsors. So yeah, we're about a year and a half in. We just finished episode one and screened it. We've got four or five more to go so we're early. We're early, but it's happening. >> And share some stories because I saw the trailer, it's phenomenal. There's women in tech and the culture of the bro culture, people talk about that all the time. It's male-dominated and you're seeing here with Red Hat Summit, there's women here but it's still dominated by men. >> Right. >> The culture has to evolve and I think a lot of men are smart and see it. Some aren't and some are learning. I would call learning a bigger (laughs) percentage. >> Sure. >> What are you finding that women who are really driving the change has been the big trend line? And how's the men reacting? Because the men have to be involved, too because they also have to take responsibility for the change. >> Absolutely, absolutely. I would say that by women sharing their stories we are starting to change culture. I'm actually keynoting today at the Women's Leadership lunch at Red Hat Summit. I'm going to talk about that, the impact of story on cultural change because there's a lot of reasons cited for the decline of women in tech, because we've gone backwards. There's actually fewer than ever before. But many things are cited. So the pipeline issue, poor education, but the biggest thing cited is the culture and the culture has changed over the course of the last decade in particular. So the women we've talked to, their stories of resilience are starting to change that culture. When people talk and share experiences and stories, there's empathy that comes from both men and women who hear those stories and I think that that starts to change culture. It's starting to happen. I think we are pivoting, it's happening. But there's still a lot of work to do. >> John Troyer: Jennifer, at the keynote, or at the luncheon here, the Women's Leadership luncheon, anything else that you'll be bringing up? That sounds like part of your message here that you're going to be bringing today and you want to share right before you go up? >> Yeah, sure. So like I said, I'll talk about the impact of story on culture. I'll talk about the stories of resilience. I'm going to share a few stories from women who we've actually interviewed and featured in episode one. Because you can't see episode one online because we're in discussions with distributors, I'm going to share those stories with this audience. And I think folks can, like I said, learn from those and gain empathy and walk away hopefully with action. >> That seems great. The storytelling of course is key, right? We're in an interesting place in our culture today and I think social media, the 10 or 20 years of social media that we've had is part of that. I know my feed is filled with incredible women leaders in tech and frankly it's much better for it. But you know, you do sense a sense of almost weariness in some folks because this is one, they get shit on, can I say that? >> Hey, it's digital TV, there's no censorship. >> But also you'd like to eventually, if you're a woman in tech, you'd like to be able to talk about tech, not just being a woman in tech. >> Right, right. >> I guess, is that just at the part, is that just where we are in society right now? >> I think so and you know, it's a marathon, not a sprint, right? It's going to take a long time. It took a long time to get us to this place, it's going to take a long time to move us forward. But yeah, women do want to build tech and not have to advocate for themselves. Hopefully projects like The Chasing Grace Project and other work that's happening out there, there's a lot of initiatives that have sprung up in the last few years, are helping to do that so that the women who are building can build. >> What's your big takeaway from the work you've done so far? It could be something that didn't surprise you that you knew was pretty obvious and what surprised you? What's some of the things that's come out of it that's personal learnings for you? >> I think the power that comes from giving women a platform to be seen and heard for their experiences. Almost every woman I've talked to says I feel so alone. They're in an office with mostly men. There might be another woman but they feel so alone and when they share their stories and they see other women sharing their stories, they know they're not alone. There may be few of them but the stories are very similar. I think that men learn a lot when they see women sharing their stories, too because they don't know. The experiences that we all have are very different. We're walking through the same industry but our day-to-day experiences are quite different. Learning what that's like, both for women, for men, there are men that are going to be featured in this series, and women of other women. Just the power in that. Most women tell me I don't really have a story. Well, you both know that when you dig a little bit, >> They all have stories. >> everybody has a story. Everybody has a story, multiple stories. So, yeah. >> So let me as you a question. This has come up in some of my interviews on women in tech and that is is that it kind of comes up subtlety, it's not really put out there, like you said, aggressively. But they say there's also a women women pressure. So how have you found that come up? Because it's not just women and men. I've heard women say there's pressure, there's other pressures from other women. Do more or do less and it's kind of an individual thing but it's also kind of code, as well to stick together. At the same time, there's a women and women dynamic. >> Yeah. >> What have you found on that? >> Mostly I've found, I think there's a shift happening, mostly I've found that women are forming community and supporting each other. Everyone has a different definition of feminism or womenism (laughs) as some women have called it, but I think there are some women who have told me, usually the older generations who have told me there's only room for one woman at the table. One woman makes it to leadership and she's very protective of that space. But we're seeing that less and less. >> I don't want to turn this into, you hate to turn this into a versus scenario, right? Especially online I see a lot of interaction of men coming up and saying, either trying to explain to women what their problem is or, but also saying educate me, like take your time to educate me because I can't be bothered to figure it out myself. Or also trying to stand up themselves and lead the charge. So one of my personal things I do, I sit back and let the women talk and listen to them about what they want to do. >> Right. >> Any particular advice you have for folks who are listening and who might want to, you know, what do you do? I guess sit down and pay attention. >> Yeah, I'd say listen to the stories. Listen to what women need and want out of their male allies and advocates. And listen to the women who you already are friends and colleagues with. What do they need from you? Start there. And then build your way out. I remember when I first started The Chasing Grace Project, I was actually advised by people, well don't feature men at all because they can't speak for women and that's very true but I've decided that we will feature both men and women because we're all part of the industry, right? When I talk about the future is being built by all of us. We need more women in leadership. We don't need just women in leadership, we need men and women. So I think though, right now at this moment in time men should listen and ask their, like I said, their inside circle of women that are friends and colleagues, what can I do? What do you need in terms of my support? >> And it's inclusion, too. There's a time to have certain, all women and then men, as well. >> Right. >> Kind of the right balance. >> Right. >> Well, I have to ask you obvioulsy, Red Hat is an Open Source world. Community is huge. Obviously tech has a community and some will argue how robust it is (laughs) >> Right. (laughs) >> and fair it is. And communities have their own personality, but the role of the community becomes super critical. Can you just share your thoughts and views of how the role of the community can up its game a bit on inclusion and diversity? And I put inclusion first because inclusion and diversity, that seems to be the trend in my interviews, diversity and inclusion, and now it's inclusion and diversity. But the community has some self-policing mechanisms. There's kind of a self-governance dynamic of communities. So it's an opportunity. >> It is an opportunity. >> So what's your view? >> There are a lot of things that are talked about within the Open Source community in terms of how to advance inclusion in a positive way. One is enforcement. So at events like this, there's a code of conduct. They've become very popular. Everybody has one, for good reason, but everybody's doing them now. I worked at The Linux Foundation for 12 years. When you have an incident at an event, if you don't enforce your code of conduct, it doesn't mean anything. So I think that's one very tangible example of something you can do. We certainly tried at The Linux Foundation, but I remember it was a challenge. If something happened, what was the level of issue and how would we enforce that and address it? So I think the community can do that. I think start there, yeah. >> What's your take on The Linux Foundation, since you brought it up? Lots going on there. >> Right. >> You've got CNCF is exploding in growth. >> Jennifer: Right. >> Part of that, Jim Zemlin is doing a great job. As you look at The Linux Foundation since you have the history, >> Yeah. >> where it's come from and where it's going, what's your view of that? >> My goodness. I was part of The Linux Foundation before it was called The Linux Foundation. It was called Open Source Development Labs, way, way, back. But you know, always impressed with what The Linux Foundation is doing. CNCF in particular is on fire. I watched my social media feeds last week about KubeCon in Copenhagen, a lot of friends there. You know, Open Source is the underpinning of society. If the world we live in is a digital one and we're building that digital existence for tomorrow, the infrastructure is Open Source. So it's just going to become more and more relevant. >> And they're doing a great job. And it's an opportunity with the community again to change things. >> Yeah. >> There's a good mindset in the Open Source community with Linux Foundation. Very growth-oriented, growth mindset. Love the vibe there. They've got good vibes. >> Yeah. >> They're very open and inclusive. >> There's some projects that are really prioritizing. DNI, one of which is Cloud Foundry Foundation. Abby Kearns is doing an amazing job there. The Node.js community I think is pretty progressive. So yeah, it's encouraging. >> Abby was on theCUBE. We were there in Copenhagen. >> Right, right. >> Thanks for coming on. >> My pleasure. >> What's next for you? Your life's a whirlwind. Take a quick minute. >> Yeah, I'm in Chicago next week for a shoot. We're shooting episode two which is focused on women in leadership roles. There's only 11% of executive positions in Silicon Valley are held by women. So it's a provocative topic because a lot of women haven't experienced that so we want more to do that. >> Well, if you need any men for the next show, John and I will happily volunteer. >> Okay, wonderful. >> To be stand-ins and backdrops. >> Fantastic, thank you. >> Thanks for coming on. It's theCUBE coverage here live, Moscone West in San Francisco for Red Hat Summit 2018. We'll be back with more coverage after this short break.

you hi I'm Lisa Martin with the cube on the ground at Google for the 6th annual cloud now top women and cloud awards event and we're very excited to be joined by our next guest jennifer clora the executive producer of the chasing Grace Project welcome to the cube thank you this project is so interesting I was telling you before we went on that I watched the trailer for it and tell us a little bit about the chasing Grace Project what your plans are for this dunkey series being being released and really the the inspiration sure so it's a documentary series of six episodes about women in tech it really talks about the culture of tech the adversities that women face doesn't shy away from those but moves pretty quickly to inspirational stories of women who have navigated a successful path in tech so that other women can learn from those experiences and join us in tech and for those women thinking about leaving maybe inspire them to stay and give them the tools they need to navigate their own paths forward I love that I was very impressed with some of the women that are featured even in the trailer of how honest they were being did you find that they felt either intimidated to share or maybe liberated to say this is what's going on there needs to be voices and faces to it yeah I think there I think women are feeling empowered right now to talk and when they share their stories they're even more empowered by the community of men and women that come around them and give them support so the women that are on camera volunteered to be so I put out a call for stories in a number of places Irish I was inundated with responses I spent four months the beginning of the year interviewing over a hundred women and trying to understand what the collective experience is for women in tech and so these women are not intimidated they're they're powerful amazing women who I am in awe of their courage what were some of the common maybe that the top two or three kind of common challenges that you heard over and over again that women in tech regardless of if they're in marketing like one you and I are or in engineering that they're facing access to opportunity they seem to feel like they hit a wall you know there's the talk about the ceiling but a lot of them talk about they hit a wall that others don't see but all of a sudden they can't go any further a lot of microaggressions that we've all heard and read about dismissiveness being overlooked in medians and for promotions our first episode is on the pay gap we've heard stories about women who have found out their male counterparts are making more than them and the differences and when they confront their bosses and when they don't so a lot of different examples we have some very explicit stories about online harassment there's some of that in the trailer one of the women Cassady shares a really amazing story about that so they vary but certainly it's happening right and we don't want to shy away from that because I think once you acknowledge what's happening and tell those stories you can start to chart the course forward I agree I think that awareness is incredibly important you are also in technology tell me a little bit about your career path in technology did you always aspire to be in tech were you interested in engineering in software or was this sort of a zigzaggy path to where you are now it wasn't a zigzaggy path I went to journalism school and studied communications and my first job out of college was during the dot-com bubble if you will and so I went into tech it was a lucrative you know career path and I fell in love with it at first it was very intimidating because I didn't speak the language but I learned the language and I learned to work with entrepreneurs I've worked with a lot of startups and translating really amazing vision into stories that anyone can understand and so that's been my pathway through tech and I'm grateful to be here and like I said I think one of the one the the mission of the chasing Grace project is to recruit and retain female talent because we as an industry needs you know a diverse workforce but also women need opportunities to these types of careers they're the most lucrative careers in the world and so that economic opportunity for women as individuals and the need that we have in the industry just put underscores the need for these types of stories to be told definitely so we're at the cloud now six annual top women and cloud awards event how did you come to be involved with cloud now and what are some what if some of your perspectives of now being involved with it yeah so I met Jocelyn the founder of cloud now just a few months ago we were introduced through mutual colleagues and she watched the trailer of the chasing Grace project and said you have to come to the event I want to share your project with our community which was so amazing to hear and so I'm super grateful to be here and to be sharing the trailer a little bit later at the event as well as exhibiting for the first time our photo exhibit called persistence that accompanies the documentary so we will host a photo exhibit at every screening of each episode and that will grow over time as more and more women are photographed for the project but the very first showing is here at the event so we were really excited to be able to do that exciting yeah so uses a six-part series correct when can people expect to start seeing episodes so the first episode is is expected around the end of February 18 2018 exactly we're in post-production now on Episode one we shot it a couple weeks ago and we're already planning episode 2 and when our shoot will be in early probably the first two three months of the year so we expect to release episodes every eight to twelve weeks so that people kind of stay connected and and we can bridge episode to episode for example the first episodes on the pay gap the second episode we think may be on female founders and there's a bridge between women who feel like they aren't being paid fairly to wanting to become the owners of their own companies so they can determine their own worth so so we want to make sure there's continuity in the episodes so as you've gone through and and you said interviewed 100 plus women in the last year what are some of the things that inspire you with the chasing grace project that you feel like we're gonna make a difference here yeah I'm inspired by the courage of these women you know there's so much more awareness about women in tech now among both men and women but a lot of times when women speak up they become that women in the office you know that woman who you know is talking and causing trouble and complaining and that's not the case these women are sharing stories that are important for all of us to understand to build a better future through technology so I'm inspired by their courage because it's no small thing to go on camera and talk about your personal story in hopes that it can help other women and help men also be a part of that conversation so I'm inspired by the courage of the women and that's you know I get notes now you know back from women who are part of the project when they see something go live the trailer the photo exhibit today that are just like I'm so excited to be a part of this and I feel empowered and I found my voice I didn't even know I had a story most the time they tell me and they do so I mean I'm inspired by that I love that and it's so great that that they're not intimidated that they are feeling empowered that they have a voice mm-hmm they matter and what they're doing should be valued there should be no differences would be great if we actually get to a world where there aren't it right we're headed there being more attention and eyes to it thank you I'll get there Thank You Jennifer thank you so much for joining my pleasure where can people find once that the episodes go live where can they find the chasing grace episode they can find them at chasing grace film calm we will have an exclusive media partnership or they will also be distributed online but they can always find them on our website excellent well I'm looking forward to watching it I thank you for sharing your story and for inspiring I'll say inspiring me and probably many of our viewers thanks so much thank you for having me I'm Lisa Martin on the ground with the Cuba Google for the cloud now top lemon and clouds award event stick around we'll be right back