>> Announcer: From the VMware Campus in Palo Alto, California It's the CUBE. Covering Women Transforming Technology >> I'm Lisa Martin with the CUBE and we are on the ground in Palo Alto at VMware headquarters with the third annual Women Transforming Technology event. Excited to be speaking with Kathy Chou, the VP of R&D Operations and Central Services from VMware. Kathy, nice to meet you. >> Nice to meet you, as well. >> So, third annual Women Transforming Technology event. Sold out within hours. It was standing room only in the keynote this morning. We got to hear from Laila Ali. So inspiring. What a strong female, who used the word purpose a lot during her talk this morning. You're a mom of four boys. You've been a female in tech for a long time, now. What is it that has kept you in tech and pursuing a career in technology as a leader? >> Well, I have been in tech for over 25 years. And it has been an absolute amazing journey. From early career to mid career to now, I'm going to say mid-to-late career, it's just a passion that's I've had. When I was a young girl, I was just good at math and science. And I pursued that passion and ended up with a mechanical engineering degree. And there are many steps along the way where I was getting discouraged. "Why do you want to do this tech thing? "You should maybe drop out, do something else." But I'm so glad I stuck with it. And really, as you mentioned, the four boys. I want to be an example for my sons because I want them to understand there can be women with all sorts of talents. And if they happen to find someone who is technical and wants to do something in this world or do something in hi-tech or management or whatever that is, that they support them in every way, shape, or form. >> How have you gotten the coveted or sought-after work-life balance? What are some of you tips and tricks we can learn from? >> Well, first of all, I call it work-life integration. Because it's really not a balance. You've got to integrate it. And one of the things I've also ... First thing, I've chosen companies that really believe in that. VMware is a company that really believes in this bringing your authentic self to work and making sure that you can integrate your work with your life. And you need to have that balance. In fact, I do a career journey. And when I talk about my career journey, there's above line, below line. And above the line is the work stuff, and below the line is the life stuff. And you need to make sure that they're equally full. Because I believe that if you have a very, very full and busy life outside of work, it'll actually make you a better employee. So I encourage my folks, as a leader now, I'm finally a leader and I manage a team, that if folks have to go and do something in the middle of the day, doctor's appointment, do something with the kid, go do it. Because as long as you get your job done, you can integrate both work and life. >> Lisa: I love that. I think you're absolutely right, that it isn't about ... It's integration. They have to work together. So, from your career in mechanical engineering, what were some of the things that ... Were you just sort of born with an innate, "I'm really interested in this," in terms of keeping your head down and focused and getting into a fairly male-dominated industry and field? Was it just sort of that innate, that you were born with, "Hey I like this. "Yeah, I'm in a male-dominated field, but I don't care?" >> Yeah, it kind of was. Because, you know, my love ... So I had two focus areas in mechanical engineering. One was material science. I just loved material science. And so I ended up working for my first job out of Stanford was Instron Corporation which was a materials testing firm. My other love was robotics. So, I had actually worked for GM on the production line and helped program some of those early robots. And so, I was able to combine those two passions when I ended up going to Instron and developed their robotics line. Now, here's the thing. As I'm going through all of this, am I looking around and realizing, "My goodness, there are no other females here?" That was the case. But my passion for learning new things, and doing something, and making a difference seemed to outstrip the fact that there weren't females. And now that, as I'm getting, again, more advanced in my career, I'm realizing that I have a duty to play as a role-model to say "Hey, you can do it. "You can have a family. "You can have a great job. "You can have a great life outside of work. "You know, as long as you integrate all of those things." So I think with that perseverance, that's how you can get through. >> And I think that there is such a need for those role models because like we were talking about Laila Ali this morning who clearing was born with this natural confidence, which not a lot of women are, >> Kathy: Yes. >> Not a lot of people are, in general. So, I think it's really important that you've recognized you're in this position to be a mentor. >> Kathy: Mm hmm. >> What are some of the ... How do you advise, either women that are in their early stage careers or even those maybe in the middle of their careers that are pondering, "Hey, I don't see any "or a lot of strong female leaders "in the executive suite. "Should I stay here?" You had that internally, but what is your advise to women who might be at that crossroads. >> Yeah. I think the first and most important thing is that it takes courage to stay the course. I know that sounds a little odd, but don't care about what you see around yourself, right? Just know about what do you love? What is your passion? And, you know, I always say that there is something I call the sweet spot. It's where your passion meets your talent. And if you're in a place like that, you're in a very special place. Because that means it's a strength of yours that you also love. And if you do that, it doesn't matter who else is around you. You know, one thing Laila said that I really loved and I really, really believe in myself is preparation. You have to be prepared so as long as you are prepared that's what gives you the confidence. We don't ... Okay, maybe she was born confident. She came out of the womb confident. I certainly wasn't. I was someone who grew up with ... I really lacked a lot self confidence. I was painfully shy. I had trouble speaking in front of people. I worked very, very hard. I was prepared to get over that fear. You know, I put myself ... She mentioned this thing about being uncomfortable. And I think I put myself in a lot of uncomfortable situations as well. I was really resonating with what she said. Speaking in front of large audiences. In fact, I used to memorize a lot of my speeches and then I remember I would forget it in the middle of it and- (gasp) I would be horrified. But you know what? You do a few of those things, you get better and better at it and if you just get out of that comfort zone and you have those little butterflies. I always say if you have those little butterflies, you're stretching your learning and that's what helps you achieve. >> I couldn't agree more. I think that, you know, I think that I always say, "Get comfortably uncomfortable." >> Kathy: Yeah. >> No matter what you're doing. If it's above the line or below the line as you were saying before. But you're right, she talked about preparation, being prepared and we talk a lot about imposter syndrome. >> Kathy: Mm hmm. >> Often times at Women and Technology events, just because it comes up, it's something I didn't even know what it was until a few years ago. And I think just simply finding out that this is a legitimate issue that many people face of any industry, gender, you name it. That alone, knowing that that was legitimate, was, "Okay, I'm not alone here." But if you can go, "Let me prepare and get prepared for what I need to do." That preparation part is, I think, a huge key that, if more people understand that just work and be prepared, you're not alone in feeling that. Sort of maybe setting the level setting there. I think that can go a long way to helping those women in any stage of their career just get that little bit more courage that you said. >> Yes. >> That you need to get out of that comfort zone. And I agree I think goals that make you a little nervous, are good goals to have. >> Totally agree. I have some tips on how to get out of that comfort zone, Or get out of your comfort zone. So, I find, okay, there's always the smartest-person-in-the-room thing you hear about, and, forget about that, okay? Ask questions. You always here this: There's no such thing as a dumb question. And there really is no such thing. I know how many times someone has asked a question say, "I asked that question." >> Lisa: Absolutely. >> And actually it's a brilliant way to be heard. Because a lot of times, a lot of women ... Actually, it doesn't matter. A woman, unrepresented minority, it could be a white male who's shy, right? In an inclusive environment, if you don't speak up, you're not heard. And a lot of the brilliant things that people have, are those questions that people have. Because if they don't understand something, I'm sure there's someone else who doesn't either. And so if you just ask some questions, you'll find that you'll get that courage to ask a few more. And then eventually you get to the point where you actually can advocate. >> I agree. You have to be willing to try and I love that. So, the theme of this event, Inclusion in Action. >> Kathy: Yes. >> I'd love to get your perspective on how do you see inclusion in action here at VMware in engineering, for example in R&D. >> Yes. First of all, I'm on the Diversity and Inclusion Council. So I represent R&D. Yes, I just had a meeting with Betsy Sutter. We had our Diversity and Inclusion Council for VMware so I was representing R&D. So it's something that is very, very important to us. One thing I will say that I've learned at this conference is it's not about the stats. It's not about the fact that you have meetings or goals. It's something you must internalize. It's something, as a leader, I think it's my job and duty to exude it, you know, through example, through being inclusive, to making sure, like I was at an event the other day here at VMware I was talking about I was at the Watermark Conference, and I was basically doing a replay of what I did at the Watermark Conference. And in there, I saw three men. And I said to myself, "You know what? "We need more men at this event." And so, even at this conference today, I want to see more men. It's all about inclusion, right? And I think people sometimes forget that, even though it says Women Transforming Technology, men, women, whatever your sexual orientation, whatever that is, we all care about how women can transform technology. You don't have to be a woman to do that. >> Right. Well one of the things that came out today was the great news about this massive investment that VMware is doing. 15 million to create this lab at Stanford. >> Kathy: Yeah. >> This innovation lab. And we were talking with Betsy earlier. And actually, in the press release, it cited that McKinsey report that states that, companies that have a more diverse executive team, >> Yes. no stats or anything, more diverse, are 21 percent more profitable. And it just seems like a no brainer. Every company wants to be profitable, right? Except for an NPO. So, if all you need to do is to increase that thought diversity alone and you're more profitable, why is this so difficult for so many other organizations to culturally adopt that mindset? >> Yeah. What I find fascinating is that diversity and inclusion is obviously a very hot topic in Silicon Valley, right? Every company is either fearing having their numbers publicly outputted or their working on these things. And yet we're doing a lot of things, but the needle isn't moving, right? So, I think it was mentioned today, by a professor from Stanford. She was saying there's not a silver bullet. Some of these things will take a long time. One of the things that we had talked about was this pipeline of, it doesn't matter again, young women, under-represented minorities, whatever you say in the STEM fields. We need to encourage more of that, okay? And so, what's interesting is there's more, well certainly more females than males that are graduating these days, yet, when you start off in a hi-tech company, you will see quite a bit of balance between male and female, I'll just use that as an example. It's even worse as far as under-represented minorities. But as you move up the chain, what happens is the numbers just fall off. And, one of the root causes that I see as an issue, is that when these women look up at the top and say, "I don't see women." Or if I am a person of color, "I don't see a person of color in this leadership position. "Why should I continue?" And then you see just a lot of attrition happening at those levels. And so, what it takes is every single one of us internalizing how important this is. And I think when that happens, when it's not a, "Oh, it's a project." Or, "Oh, it's an initiative." Or, "Oh, it's a goal." And this, by the way, may take a decade or more. But once we all internalize this, I think that's when the needle's going to move. >> Yeah, we talked a lot earlier about accelerating this. Because you're right, the attrition rates are incredibly high, much higher for women leaving technology than leaving other industries. And a lot of women are looking for those role models, like somebody like you for example. But, I think the more awareness, the more consistent awareness we can get ... And also the fact that, you know, in the last six months we've had the Me Too Movement explode onto the scene, getting this unlikely alliance with Hollywood, Time's Up, Brotopia coming out a couple of months ago, and was something that I actually put off reading because I thought, "I don't think I want to know", and I thought, "Actually, yes I do." Because there's no reason that these things should continue. >> Right. >> But, to your point, it's not just about getting more women involved. It's really about integrating and including everybody. >> Kathy: Absolutely. >> To move the needle, but much faster. Half of 2018 is almost over. There were no big females onstage for CES five months ago. And there's really no reason for that. So the more we can all come together and just identify role models and examples and share the different things that we've been through, the more I think we can impact this acceleration of this movement. >> Totally agree. I actually have a thought that you just triggered around perhaps accelerating this in the best way we can. Knowing, again, there's no silver bullet. But I was at my business school reunion and I was shocked to see that 80 percent of my business school graduates were not working. And what happened is many of these women had taken jobs in consulting firms, investment banking firms, that weren't that friendly. And when they started to have children, they stopped out. And they didn't want to compromise their family. Who does? Nobody wants to do that. But when they wanted to come back, they found that they had either gotten off, they call it the mommy track, right? The train left the station, they couldn't make it back on. Or they weren't willing to take a lower job. And so, because of that, many of them ended up not working. And, you know, that's sad. Because these are really, really smart, brilliant ... >> Lisa: These are Harvard graduates, right? >> They are. Harvard Business School graduates that were not working. And so, like you said, it requires everyone to understand, right? It's the employers, a lot of these men, need to understand that women, if they want ... And by the way, it's not even women these days. It's young men who want to be with their families, as well. Paternity leaves, time off with the kids, those sorts of things. If you allow those people that freedom. You know, when I was young, I felt like I went through this by myself. So I had three kids five and under. My career was not progressing. I was just doing lateral moves and I didn't feel like I was successful in anything. Not successful in my job, not successful at home. And then I had no friends, 'cause I was too busy and work and home. But if I had more of a support network at the time, fortunately I didn't drop out. I could have. I think many people do. So, if we can provide more support at that really important time when they're raising their families, people can see that, "Hey, I can have a great family life and also a great work life." >> So key, just for support alone. And that's one of the things that I think is really exciting about Women Transforming Technology. It's this consortium of organizations and industry and academia and non-profits, coming together to identify and tackle these issues that we're facing. 'Cause the issues that women are facing are issues that corporations, profitable corporations, are facing. But to connect on these challenge points, provide that support and that network, and also, to your point, maybe even providing an unlikely mentor to somebody who might have in your position where, "I don't think I'm being successful anywhere." But you stuck with it, and you might have at times gone, "I don't know why I'm sticking with this." But you had some intestinal fortitude to do that. More of those supportive and mentoring voices and people, the more we can elevate them, and show them to other people who might be struggling, the better we're going to be able to move this needle. >> Completely agree. And you know what? They always say "it takes a village," right? It takes a village to raise a family. It takes a village to work and do what you need to do and make a change in the world, and we all need to do this together. And, by the way, there's nothing more inclusive than that, is there? >> Lisa: Right. >> We all have to deal with this. It doesn't matter your sexual orientation, your age, your gender, your ethnicity, doesn't matter. We all share in this common bond, right, around how do we integrate our work and our life. >> Kathy, brilliantly said. Thank you so much for stopping by the CUBE and sharing your experiences and your wisdom. I, for one, was very inspired. So thank you for your time. >> Thank you, I was inspired as well. I really appreciate it. >> Oh, thank you. Thank you for watching the CUBE. We are on the ground at VMware for the Women Transforming Technology event. Thanks for watching. (music)