(upbeat music) >> We're back at AWS re:Invent 2021. It's the biggest hybrid event of the year. One of the few physical events and we're psyched to be here. My name is Dave Vellante, and I'm really pleased to bring back the host emeritus, Stu Miniman, somebody I worked with side-by-side, Stu, for 10 years in a setting much like this, many like this. So, good to have you back. >> Dave, it's great to be here with theCUBE team, family here and re:Invent, Dave. I mean, this show, I remember back, Dave, going to you after the first re:Invent we talked, we were like, "We got to be there." Dave, remember the first year we came, the second year of re:Invent, this is the 10th year now, little card tables, gaming companies, all this stuff. You had Jerry Chen on yesterday and Jerry was comparing like, this is going to be like the next Microsoft. And we bet heavy on this ecosystem. And yeah, we all think this cloud thing, it might be real. 20,000 people here, it's not the 50 or 75,000 that we had in like 2018, 2019, but this ecosystem, what's happening in the cloud, multiple versions of hybrid going on with the event and the services, but yeah, phenomenal stuff. And yeah, it's so nice to see people. >> That's for sure. It's something that we've talked about a lot over the years is, and you remember the early days of re:Invent and to this day, just very a strong developer affinity that AWS has done a tremendous job of building that up and it's their raison d'etre, it's how they approach the market. But now you've been at Red Hat for a bit, obviously as well, developer affinity, what have you learned? Specifically as it relates to the cloud, Kubernetes, hottest thing going, you don't want to do an OpenShift commercial, but it's there, you're in the middle of that mix. What have you learned generally? >> Well, Dave, to the comment that you made about developers here, it's developers and the enterprise. We used to have a joke and say, enterprise developer is an oxymoron, but that line between developers doing stuff, early as a cloud, it was stealth computing. It's they're often doing this stuff and central IT is not managing it. So how do the pieces come together? How do apps and infrastructure, how do those pieces come together? And it's something that Red Hat has been doing a long time. Think about the Linux developer. They might've not have been the app developers, the people building Linux and everything, but they had a decent close tie to it. I'm on the OpenShift team. What we do is cloud, Dave, and we've got a partnership here with Amazon. We GAed our native cloud service earlier this year. Andy Jassy helped name it. It is the beautifully named Red Hat OpenShift Service on AWS or ROSA. But we've done OpenShift on AWS for more than five years, basically since we were doing Kubernetes, it's been here because of course customers doing cloud, where are they? A lot of them are here in Amazon. So I've been loving talking to a lot of customers, understanding how enterprise adoption is increasing, how we can enable developers and help them move faster. And yeah, I mean the quick plug on OpenShift is our service. We've got an SRE team that is going to manage all of that. A friend of the program, Corey Quinn, says, "Hey, an SRE team like that, because you don't want to manage as an enterprise." You don't want to manage Kubernetes. Yeah, you need to understand some of the pieces, but what is important to your business is the applications, your data and all those things and managing the undifferentiated heavy lifting. That's one of the reasons you went to the cloud. So therefore changing your model as to how you consume services in the cloud. And what are we seeing with Amazon, Dave? They're trying to build more solutions, simplify deployments, and offer more solutions including with their ecosystem. >> So I want to ask you. You said enterprise developer is kind of an oxymoron, and I remember, years ago I used to hang around with a lot of heads of application development and insurance companies and financial services, pharmaceutical, and they didn't wear hoodies, but they didn't wear suits either. And then when I talked to guys like Jeff Clark, for instance. He talks about we're building an abstraction layer across clouds, blah, blah, blah, which by the way, I think it is the right strategy. I'm like, "Okay, I'll drink some of that Kool-Aid." And then when I come here, we talked to Adam Selipsky. John flew out and I was on the chime. He goes, "Yeah, that's not hybrid. No, this is nothing like, it's not AWS, AWS is cloud." So, square that circle for me, 'cause you're in both worlds and certainly your strategy is to connect those words. Is that cloud? >> Yeah, right. I mean, Dave, we spent years talking about like is private cloud really a cloud? And when we started coming to the show, there is only one cloud. It is the public cloud and Amazon is the paragon of, I don't know what it was. >> Dave: Fake clouds, cloud washing. >> So today, Amazon's putting lots of things into your data center and extending the cloud out to that environment. >> So that's cloud. >> That's cloud. >> What do we call that cloud? What about the reverse? >> What's happening at the edge is that cloud is that extension of what we said from Amazon. If you look at not only Outpost, but Wavelengths and Local Zones and everything else like that. >> Let's say, yes, that's cloud. The APIs, primitives, check. >> Dave, I've always thought cloud is an operating model, not a location. And the hybrid definition is not the old, I did an ebook on this, Dave earlier this year. It's not the decade old NIS definition of an application that spans because I don't get up in the morning as an enterprise and say, "Oh, let me look at the table of how much Google is charging me or Microsoft or Amazon," or wake up one morning and move from one cloud to the other. Portability, follow the sun type stuff, does it ever happen? Yes, but it is rare thing. Applications oftentimes get pulled apart. So we've seen if you talk about AI, training the cloud, then transact and do things at the edge. If I'm in an autonomous vehicle or in a geosynchronous satellite, I can't be going back to the cloud to process stuff. So I get what I need and I process there. The same thing hybrid, oftentimes I will do my transactional activity in the public cloud because I've got unlimited compute capability, but I might have my repository of data for many different reasons, governance or security, all these things in my own data center. So parts of an application might live there, but I don't just span to go between the public cloud in my data center or the edge, it's specific architectural decisions as to how we do this. And by the way the developer, they don't want to have to think about location. I mean, my background, servers, storage, virtualization, all that stuff, that was very much an infrastructure up look of things. Developers want to worry about their code and make sure that it works in production. >> Okay, let me test that. If it's in the AWS cloud and I think it's true for the other hyperscale clouds too, they don't have to think about location, but they still have to think about location on-prem, don't they? >> Well, Dave, even in a public cloud, you do need to worry about sometimes it's like, "Okay, do I split it between availability zones? How do I build that? How do I do that?" So there are things that we build on top of it. So we've seen Amazon. >> I think that's fair, data sovereignty, you have to think about okay. >> Absolutely, a lot of those things. >> Okay, but the experience in Germany is going to be the same as it is in DC, is it not? >> More or less? There are some differences we'll see off and Amazon will roll things out over time and what's available, you've got cloud. >> For sure, though that's definitely true. That's a maturity thing, right? You've talked a bit, but ultimately they all sort of catch up. I guess my question would be is the delta between, let's say, Fed adoption and East Coast, is that delta narrower, significantly narrow than what you might see on-prem? >> The services are the same, sometimes for financial or political things, there might be some slight differences, but yes, the cloud experience should be the same everywhere from Amazon. >> Is it from a standpoint of hybrid, on-prem to cloud, across cloud? >> Many of the things when they go outside of the Amazon data centers are limited or a little bit different or you might have latency considerations that you have to consider. >> Now it's a tug of war. >> So it's not totally seamless because, David Foyer would tell us there, "You're not going to fight physics." There are certain things that we need to have and we've changed the way we architect things because it's no longer the bottleneck of the local scuzzy connection that you have there, it is now (indistinct). >> But the point I'm making is that gets into a tug of war of "Our way is better than your way." And the answer is depends in terms of your workload and the use case. >> You've looked at some of these new databases that span globes and do things of the like. >> Another question, I don't know if you saw the Goldman Sachs deal this morning, Goldman Sachs is basically turning its business into a SaaS and pointing it to their hedge funds and allowing people to access their data, their tools, their software that they built for their own purposes. And now they're outselling it. Similar to what NASDAQ has done. I can't imagine doing that without containers. >> Yeah, so interesting point, I think. At least six years ago now, Amazon launched serverless and serverless was going to take over the world. I dug into the space for a couple of years. And you had the serverless with camp and you had the container camp. Last year at re:Invent, I really felt a shift from Amazon's positioning that many of the abstraction layers and the tools that help you support those environments will now span between Lambda and containers. The container world has been adding serverless functionality. So Amazon does Fargate. The open-source community uses something called Knative, and just breaking this week. Knative was a project that Google started and it looks like that is going to move over to the CNCF. So be part of the whole Kubernetes ecosystem and everything like that. Oracle, VMware, IBM, Red Hat, all heavily involved in Knative, and we're all excited to see that go into the CNCF. So the reason I say that, I've seen from Amazon, I actually, John and I, when we interviewed Andy Jassy back in 2017, I asked him a follow-up question because he said if he was to build AWS in 2017, "I would start with everything underneath it serverless." I would wonder if following up with Adam or Andy today, I'd said, "Would it be all serverless or would containers be a piece of it?" Because sometimes underneath it doesn't matter or sometimes it can be containers and serverless. It's a single unit in Amazon and when they position things, it's now that spectrum of unit, everything from the serverless through the containers, through... James Hamilton wrote a blog post today about running Xen-on-Nitro and they have a migration service for a mainframe. So what do we know? That one of the only things about IT is almost nothing ever goes away. I mean, it sounded like Amazon declared coming soon the end of life of mainframe. My friends over at IBM might not be quite ready to call that era over but we shall see. All these things take time. Everything in IT is additive. I'm happy to see. It is very much usually an end world when I look at the container and Kubernetes space. That is something that you can have a broad spectrum of applications. So some of my more monolithic applications can move over, my cool new data, AI things, I can build on it, microservices in between. And so, it's a broad platform that spans the cloud, the edge, the data center. So that cloud operating model is easier to have consistency all the places that I go. >> Mainframe is in the cloud. Well, we'll see. Big banks by the next site unseen. So I think Amazon will be able to eat away at the edges of that, but I don't think there's going to be a major migration. They claim it. Their big thing is that you can't get COBOL programmers. So I'm like, "Yeah, call DXC, you'll get plenty." Let's talk about something more interesting. (Stu laughs softly) So the last 10 years was a lot of, a lot about IT transformation and there was a lot more room to grow there. I mean, the four big hyperscalers are going to do 120 billion this year. They're growing at 35%. Maybe it's not a trillion, but there's a $500 billion market that they're going after, maybe more. It looks like there's a real move. You saw that with NASDAQ, the Goldman deal, to really drive into business, deeper business integration in addition to IT transformation. So how do you see the next decade of cloud? What should we be watching? >> So, one of the interesting trends, I mean, Dave, for years we covered big data and big data felt very horizontal in it's approach thing. Hadoop take over the world. When I look at AI solutions, when I look at the edge computing technologies that happen, they're very vertically driven. So, our early customers in edge adoption tend to be like telco with the 5G rollout manufacturing in some of their environments. AI, every single industry has a whole set of use cases that they're using that go very deep. So I think cloud computing goes from, we talked about infrastructure as a service to it needs to be more, it is solution, some of these pieces go together. When Adam got up on stage and talked about how many instance types they have on Amazon, Dave, it's got to be 2X or 4X more different instant types than if I went to go to HPE or Dell and buy a physical server for my environment. So we need to have areas and guidance and blueprints and heck, use some of that ML and AI to help drive people to the right solutions because we definitely have the paradox of choice today. So I think you will find some gravity moving towards some of these environments. Gravatar has been really interesting to watch. Obviously that Annapurna acquisition should be down as one of the biggest ones in the cloud era. >> No lack of optionality to your point. So I guess to the point of deeper business integration, that's the big question, will Amazon provide more solution abstractions? They certainly do with Connect. We didn't hear a ton of that this show. >> Interestingly. (Dave speaking indistinctly) So the article that you and John Furrier wrote after meeting with Adam, the thing that caught my eye is discussion of community and ecosystems. And one of the things coming after, some, big communities out there like, you and I lived through the VMware ecosystem in that very tight community. There are forming little areas of community here in this group, but it's not a single cloud community. There are those focus areas that they have. And I do love to see, I mean, obviously working for Red Hat, talking about the ecosystem support. I was very happy to hear Adam mention Red Hat in the keynote as one of the key hybrid partners there. So, for Amazon to get from the 60 million, the 60 billion to the trillion dollar mark down the road, it's going to take a village and we're happy to be a part of it. >> Hey, great to have you back, enjoy the rest of the show. This is, let's see, day three, we're wrapping up. We're here again tomorrow so check it out. Special thanks to obviously AWS is our anchor sponsor and of course, AMD for sponsoring the editorial segments of our event. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in tech coverage. See you tomorrow. (bright upbeat music)

>>Hi, buddy. Welcome back to the keeps coverage of AWS 2021. Re-invent you're watching the cube and I'm really excited. We're going to go outside the storage box. I like to say with my lawn Thompson Bukovac, who's the vice-president of block and object storage and Wayne Duso was a VP of storage edge and data governance guys. Great to see you again, we saw you at storage day, the 15 year anniversary of AWS, of course, the first product service ever. So awesome to be here. Isn't it. Wow. >>So much energy in the room. It's so great to see customers learning from each other, learning from AWS, learning from the things that you're observing as well. >>A lot of companies decided not to do physical events. I think you guys are on the right side of history. We're going to show you, you weren't exactly positive. How many people are going to show up. Everybody showed. I mean, it's packed house here, so >>Number 10. Yeah. >>All right. So let's get right into it. Uh, news of the week. >>So much to say, when you want to kick this off, >>We had a, we had a great set of announcements that Milan, uh, talked about yesterday, uh, in her talk and, and a couple of them in the file space, specifically a new, uh, member of the FSX family. And if you remember that the FSA, Amazon FSX is, uh, for customers who want to run fully managed versions of third party and open source file systems on AWS. And so yesterday we announced a new member it's FSX for open ZFS. >>Okay, cool. And there's more, >>Well, there's more, I mean, one of the great things about the new match file service world and CFS is it's powered by gravity. >>It is taught by Gravatar and all of the capabilities that AWS brings in terms of networking, storage, and compute, uh, to our customers. >>So this is really important. I want the audience to understand this. So I I've talked on the cube about how a large proportion let's call it. 30% of the CPU cycles are kind of wasted really on things like offloads, and we could be much more efficient, so graviton much more efficient, lower power and better price performance, lower cost. Amazon is now on a new curve, uh, cycles are faster for processors, and you can take advantage of that in storage it's storage users, compute >>That's right? In fact, you have that big launch as well for luster, with gravity. >>We did in fact, uh, so with, with, uh, Yasmin of open CFS, we also announced the next gen Lustre offering. And both of these offerings, uh, provide a five X improvement in performance. For example, now with luster, uh, customers can drive up to one terabyte per second of throughput, which is simply amazing. And with open CFS, right out of, right out of the box at GA a million IOPS at sub-millisecond latencies taking advantage of gravitas, taking advantage of our storage and networking capabilities. >>Well, I guess it's for HPC workloads, but what's the difference between these days HPC, big data, data intensive, a lot of AI stuff, >>All right. You to just, there's a lot of intersection between all of those different types of workloads they have, as you said, and you know, it all, it all depends on it all matters. And this is the reason why having the suite of capabilities that the, if you would, the members of the family is so important to our guests. >>We've talked a lot about, it's really can't think about traditional storage as a traditional storage anymore. And certainly your world's not a box. It's really a data platform, but maybe you could give us your point of view on that. >>Yeah, I think, you know, if, if we look, if we take a step back and we think about how does AWS do storage? Uh, we think along multiple dimensions, we have the dimension that Wayne's talking about, where you bring together the power of compute and storage for these managed file services that are so popular. You and I talked about, um, NetApp ONTAP. Uh, we went into some detail on that with you as well, and that's been enormously popular. And so that whole dimension of these managed file services is all about where is the customer today and how can we help them get to the cloud? But then you think about the other things that we're also imagining, and we're, re-imagining how customers want to grow those applications and scale them. And so a great example here at reinvent is let's just take the concept of archive. >>So many people, when they think about archive, they think about taking that piece of data and putting it away on tape, putting it away in a closet somewhere, never pulling it out. We don't think about archive like that archive just happens to be data that you just aren't using at the moment, but when you need it, you need it right away. And that's why we built a new storage class that we launched just yesterday, Dave, and it's called glacier instead of retrieval, it has retrieval and milliseconds, just like an Esri storage class has the same pricing of four tenths of a cent as glacier archive. >>So what's interesting at the analyst event today, Adam got a question about, and somebody was poking at him, you know, analysts can be snarky sometimes about, you know, price, declines and so forth. And he said, you know, one of the, one of the things that's not always shown up and we don't always get credit for lowering prices, but we might lower costs. And there's the archive and deep archive is an example of that. Maybe you could explain that point of view. >>Yeah. The way we look at it is that our customers, when they talk to us about the cost of storage, they talked to us about the total cost of the storage, and it's not just storing the data, it's retrieving it and using it. And so we have done an amazing amount across all the portfolio around reducing costs. We have glacier answer retrieval, which is 68% cheaper than standard infrequent access. That's a big cost reduction. We have EBS snapshots archive, which we introduced yesterday, 75% cheaper to archive a snapshot. And these are the types of that just transform the total cost. And in some cases we just eliminate costs. And so the glacier storage class, all bulk retrievals of data from the glacier storage class five to 12 hours, it's now free of charge. If you don't even have to think about, we didn't even reduce it. We just eliminated the cost of that data retrieval >>And additive to what Milan said around, uh, archiving. If you look at what we've done throughout the entire year, you know, a interesting statistic that was brought up yesterday is over the course of 2021, between our respective teams, we've launched over 105 capabilities for our customers throughout this year. And in some of them, for instance, on the file side for EFS, we launched one zone which reduced, uh, customer costs by 47%. Uh, you can now achieve on EFS, uh, cost of roughly 4.30 cents per gigabyte month on, uh, FSX, we've reduced costs up to 92%, uh, on Lustre and FSX for windows and with the introduction of ONTAP and open CFS, we continue those forward, including customers ability to compress and Dedoose against those costs. So they ended up seeing a considerable savings, even over what our standard low prices are. >>100 plus, what can I call them releases? And how can you categorize those? Are they features of eight? Do they fall into, >>Because they range for major services, like what we've launched with open ZFS to major features and really 95 of those were launched before re-invent. And so really what you have between the different teams that work in storage is you have this relentless drive to improve all the storage platforms. And we do it all across the course of the year, all across the course of the year. And in some cases, the benefit shows up at no cost at all to a customer. >>Uh, how, how did this, it seems like you're on an accelerated pace, a S3 EBS, and then like hundreds of services. I guess the question is how come it took so long and how is it accelerating now? Is it just like, there was so much focus on compute before you had to get that in place, or, but now it's just rapidly accessing, >>I I'll tell you, Dave, we took the time to count this year. And so we came to you with this number of 106, uh, that acceleration has been in place for many years. We just didn't take the time to couch. Correct. So this has been happening for years and years. Wayne and I have been with AWS for, for a long time now for 10 plus years. And really that velocity that we're talking about right now that has been happening every single year, which is where you have storage today. And I got to tell you, innovation is in our DNA and we are not going to stop now >>So 10 years. Okay. So it was really, the first five years was kind of slow. And then >>I think that's true at all. I don't think that try, you know, if you, if you look at, uh, the services that we have, we have the most complete portfolio of any cloud provider when it comes to storage and data. And so over the years, we've added to the foundation, which is S3 and the foundation, which is EBS. We've come out with a number of storage services in the, in the file space. Now you have an entire suite of persistent data stores within AWS and the teams behind those that are able to accelerate that pace. Just to give you an example, when I joined 10 years ago, AWS launched within that year, roughly a hundred and twenty, a hundred and twenty eight services or features our teams together this year have launched almost that many, just in those in, just in this space. So AWS continues to accelerate the storage teams continue to accelerate. And as my line said, we just started counting >>The thing. And if you think about those first five years, that was laying the baseline to launch us three, to launch EBS, to get that foundation in place, get lifecycle policies in place. But really, I think you're just going to see an even faster acceleration that number's going up. >>No, I that's what I'm saying. It does appear that way. And you had to build a team and put teams in place. And so that's, you know, part of the equation. But again, I come back to, it's not even, I don't even think of it as storage anymore. It's it's data. People are data lake is here to stay. You might not like the term. We always use the joke about a data ocean, but data lake is here to say 200,000 data lakes. Now we heard Adam talk about, uh, this morning. I think it was Adam. No, it was Swami. Do you want a thousand data lakes in your customer base now? And people are adding value to that data in new ways, injecting machine intelligence, you know, SageMaker is a big piece of that. Tying it in. I know a lot of customers are using glue as catalogs and which I'm like, wow, is glue a catalog or, I mean, it's just so flexible. So what are you seeing customers do with that base of data now and driving new business value? Because I've said last decade plus has been about it transformation. And now we're seeing business transformation. Maybe you could talk about that a little bit. >>Well, the base of every data lake is going to be as three yesterday has over 200 trillion objects. Now, Dave, and if you think about that, if you took every person on the planet, each of those people would have 26,000 S3 objects. It's gotten that big. And you know, if you think about the base of data with 200 trillion plus objects, really the opportunity for innovation is limitless. And you know, a great example for that is it's not just business value. It's really the new customer experiences that our customers are inventing the NFL. Uh, they, you know, they have that application called digital athlete where, you know, they started off with 10,000 labeled images or up to 20,000 labeled images now. And they're all using it to drive machine learning models that help predict and support the players on the field when they start to see things unfold that might cause injury. That is a brand new experience. And it's only possible with vast amounts of data >>Additive to when my line said, we're, we're in you talk about business transformation. We are in the age of data and we represent storage services. But what we really represent is what our customers hold one of their most valuable assets, which is their data. And that set of data is only growing. And the ability to use that data, to leverage that data for value, whether it's ML training, whether it's analytics, that's only accelerated, this is the feedback we get from our customers. This is where these features and new capabilities come from. So that's, what's really accelerating our pace >>Guys. I wish we had more time. I'd have to have you back because we're on a tight clock here, but, um, so great to see you both especially live. I hope we get to do more of this in 2022. I'm an optimist. Okay. And keep it right there, everybody. This is Dave Volante for the cube you're leader in live tech coverage, right back.

>>From around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. >>Hi, this is Dave Volante. Welcome back to the cubes. Continuous coverage of AWS reinvent 2020, the virtual version of the cube and reinvent. I'm here with David foyer. Who's the CTO Wiki Bon, and we're going to break down today's infrastructure keynote, which was headlined by Peter DeSantis. David. Good to see you. Good to see you. So David, we have a very tight timeframe and I just want to cover a couple of things. Something that I've learned for many, many years, working with you is the statement. It's all about recovery. And that really was the first part of Peter's discussion today. It was, he laid out the operational practices of AWS and he talked a lot about, he actually had some really interesting things up there. You know, you use the there's no compression algorithm for experience, but he talked a lot about availability and he compared AWS's availability philosophy with some of its competitors. >>And he talked about generators being concurrent and maintainable. He got, he took it down to the batteries and the ups and the thing that impressed me, most of the other thing that you've taught me over the years is system thinking. You've got to look at the entire system. That one little component could have Peter does emphasis towards a huge blast radius. So what AWS tries to do is, is constrict that blast radius so he can sleep at night. So non-disruptive replacements of things like batteries. He talked a lot about synchronous versus asynchronous trade-offs and it was like, kind of async versus sync one-on-one synchronous. You got latency asynchronous, you got your data loss to exposure. So a lot of discussions around that, but what was most interesting is he CA he compared and contrasted AWS's philosophy on availability zones, uh, with the competition. And he didn't specifically call out Microsoft and Google, but he showed some screenshots of their websites and the competition uses terms like usually available and generally available this meaning that certain regions and availability zone may not be available. That's not the case with AWS, your thoughts on that. >>They have a very impressive track record, uh, despite the, a beta the other day. Um, but they've got a very impressive track record. I, I think there is a big difference, however, between a general purpose computing and, uh, mission critical computing. And when you've got to bring up, uh, databases and everything else like that, then I think there are other platforms, uh, which, uh, which in the longterm, uh, AWS in my view, should be embracing that do a better job in mission critical areas, uh, in terms of bringing things up and not using data and recovery. So that's, that's an area which I think AWS will need to partner with in the past. >>Yeah. So, um, the other area of the keynote that was critical was, um, he spent a lot of time on custom Silicon and you and I have talked about this a lot, of course, AWS and Intel are huge partners. Uh, but, but we know that Intel owns its own fabs, uh, it's competitors, you know, we'll outsource to the other, other manufacturers. So Intel is motivated to put as much function on the real estate as possible to create general purpose processors and, and get as much out of that real estate as they possibly can. So what AWS has been been doing, and they certainly didn't throw Intel under the bus. They were very complimentary and, and friendly, but they also lay it out that they're developing a number of components that are custom Silicon. They talked about the nitro controllers, uh, inferential, which is, you know, specialized chips around, around inference to do things like PI torch, uh, and TensorFlow. >>Uh, they talked about training them, you know, the new training ship for training AI models or ML models. They spent a lot of time on Gravatar, which is 64 bit, like you say, everything's 64 bit these days, but it's the arm processor. And so, you know, they, they didn't specifically mention Moore's law, but they certainly taught, they gave, uh, a microprocessor one Oh one overview, which I really enjoyed. They talked about, they didn't specifically talk about Moore's law, but they talked about the need to put, put on more, more cores, uh, and then running multithreaded apps and the whole new programming models that, that brings out. Um, and, and, and basically laid out the case that these specialized processors that they're developing are more efficient. They talked about all these cores and the overhead that, that those cores bring in the difficulty of keeping those processors, those cores busy. >>Uh, and so they talked about symmetric, uh, uh, a simultaneous multi-threading, uh, and sharing cores, which like, it was like going back to the old days of, of microprocessor development. But the point being that as you add more cores and you have that overhead, you get non-linear, uh, performance improvements. And so, so it defeats the notion of scale out, right? And so what I, what I want to get to is to get your take on this as you've been talking for a long, long time about arm in the data center, and remind me just like object storage. We talked for years about object storage. It never went anywhere until Amazon brought forth simple storage service. And then object storage obviously is, you know, a mainstream mainstream storage. Now I see the same thing happening, happening with, with arm and the data center specifically, of course, alternative processes are taking off, but, but what's your take on all this? You, you listened to the keynote, uh, give us your takeaways. >>Well, let's go back to first principles for a second. Why is this happening? It's happening because of volume, volume, volume, volume is incredibly important, obviously in terms of cost. Um, and if you, if you're, if you look at a volume, uh, arm is, is, was based on the volumes that came from that from the, uh, from the, um, uh, handhelds and all of their, all of the mobile stuff that's been generating. So there's billions of chips being made, uh, on that. >>I can interrupt you for a second, David. So we're showing a slide here, uh, and, and it's, it's, it, it, it relates to volume and somewhat, I mean, we, we talk a lot about the volume that flash for instance gained from the consumer. Uh, and, and, and now we're talking about these emerging workloads. You call them matrix workloads. These are things like AI influencing edge work, and this gray area shows these alternative workloads. And that's really what Amazon is going after. So you show in this chart, you know, basically very small today, 2020, but you show a very large and growing position, uh, by the end of this decade, really eating into traditional, the traditional space. >>That, that that's absolutely correct. And, and that's being led by what's happening in the mobile market. If you look at all of the work that's going on, on your, on your, uh, Apple, uh, Apple iPhone, there's a huge amount of, uh, modern, uh, matrix workloads are going there to help you with your photography and everything like that. And that's going to come into the, uh, into the data center within, within two years. Uh, and that's what, what, uh, AWS is focusing on is capabilities of doing this type of new workload in real time. And, and it's hundreds of times, hundreds of times more processing, uh, to do these workloads and it's gotta be done in real time. >>Yeah. So we have a, we have a chart on that this bar chart that you've, you've produced. Uh, I don't know if you can see the bars here. Um, I can't see them, but, but maybe we can, we can editorialize. So on the left-hand side, you basically have traditional workloads, uh, on blue and you have matrix workloads. What you calling these emerging workloads and red you, so you show performance 0.9, five versus 50, then price performance for traditional 3.6. And it's more than 150 times greater for ARM-based workload. >>Yeah. And that's a analysis of the previous generation of arm. And if you take the new ones, the M one, for example, which has come in to the, uh, to the PC area, um, that's going to be even higher. So the arm is producing hybrid computers, uh, multi, uh, uh, uh, heterogeneous computers with multiple different things inside the computer. And that is making life a lot more efficient. And especially in the inference world, they're using NPUs instead of GPU's, they conferred about four times more NPUs that you can GPU's. And, um, uh, it, it's just a, uh, it's a different world and, uh, arm is ahead because it's done all the work in the volume area, and that's now going to go into PCs and, and it's going to, going to go into the data center. >>Okay, great. Now, yeah, if we could, uh, uh, guys bring up the, uh, the, the other chart that's titled workloads moving to ARM-based servers, this one is just amazing to me, David, you'll see that I, for some reason, the slides aren't translating, so, uh, forget that, forget the slides. So, um, but, but basically you have the revenue coming from arm as to be substantially higher, uh, in the out years, uh, or certainly substantially growing more than the traditional, uh, workload revenue. Now that's going to take a decade, but maybe you could explain, you know, why you see that. >>Yeah, the, the, the, the, the reason is that these matrix workloads, uh, and also, uh, the offload of like nitro is doing it's the offload of the storage and the networking from the, the main CPU's, uh, the dis-aggregation of computing, uh, plus the traditional workloads, which can move, uh, over or are moving over and where AWS, uh, and, and Microsoft and the PC and Apple, and the PC where those leaders are leading us is that they are doing the hard work of making sure that their software, uh, and their API APIs can utilize the capabilities of arm. Uh, so, uh, it's, it's the it, and the advantage that AWS has of course, is that enormous economies of scale, across many, many users. Uh, that's going to take longer to go into the, the enterprise data center much longer, but the, the, uh, Microsoft, Google and AWS, they're going to be leading the charge of this movement, all of arm into the data center. Uh, it was amazing some of the people or what some of the arm customers or the AWS customers were seeing today with much faster performance and much lower price. It was, they were, they were affirming. Uh, and, and the fundamental reason is that arm are two generations of production. They are in at the moment at five nano meters, whereas, um, Intel is still at 10. Uh, so that's a big, big issue that, uh, Intel have to address. Yeah. And so >>You get, you've been getting this core creep, I'll call it, which brings a lot of overhead. And now you're seeing these very efficient, specialized processes in your premises. We're going to see these explode for these new workloads. And in particular, the edge is such an enormous opportunity. I think you've pointed out that you see a big, uh, uh, market for edge, these edge emergent edge workloads kind of start in the data center and then push out to the edge. Andy Jassy says that the edge, uh, or, or we're going to bring AWS to the edge of the data center is just another edge node. I liked that vision, your thoughts. >>Uh, I, I think that is a, a compelling vision. I think things at the edge, you have many different form factors. So, uh, you, you will need an edge and a car for example, which is cheap enough to fit into a car and it's, but it's gotta be a hundred times more processing than it is in the, in the computers, in the car at the moment, that's a big leap and, and for, to get to automated driving, uh, but that's going to happen. Um, and it's going to happen on ARM-based systems and the amount of work that's going to go out to the edge is enormous. And the amount of data that's generated at the edge is enormous. That's not going to come back to the center, that's going to be processed at the edge, and the edge is going to be the center. If you're like of where computing is done. Uh, it doesn't mean to say that you're not going to have a lot of inference work inside the data center, but a lot of, lot of work in terms of data and processing is move, is going to move into the edge over the next decade. >>Yeah, well, many of, uh, AWS is edge offerings today, you know, assume data is going to be sent back. Although of course you see outpost and then smaller versions of outposts. That's a, to me, that's a clue of what's coming. Uh, basically again, bringing AWS to, to, to the edge. I want to also touch on, uh, Amazon's, uh, comments on renewable. Peter has talked a lot about what they're doing to reduce carbon. Uh, one of the interesting things was they're actually reusing their cooling water that they clean and reuse. I think, I think you said three or multiple times, uh, and then they put it back out and they were able to purify it and reuse it. So, so that's a really great sustainable story. There was much more to it. Uh, but I think, you know, companies like Amazon, especially, you know, large companies really have a responsibility. So it's great to see Amazon stepping up. Uh, anyway, we're out of time, David, thanks so much for coming on and sharing your insights really, really appreciate it. Those, by the way, those slides of Wiki bond.com has a lot of David's work on there. Apologize for some of the data not showing through, but, uh, working in real time here. This is Dave Volante for David foyer. Are you watching the cubes that continuous coverage of AWS reinvent 2020, we'll be right back.

>> Presenter: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders around the globe, these are cloud native insights. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, the host of Cloud Native Insights. When we launched this program, we talked about, how do we take advantage of the innovation and agility that's in the cloud? And of course, one of the big components that we've talked about for many years on theCUBE is, how do we empower developers? and developers are helping change things, and I'm really happy to welcome to the program first time guests that helped build many of the tools that developers are very well familiar. So Tom Preston Werner, he is the co-founder of Chatterbug, he is the creator of redwoodjs, we had an early episode, the JAMstack Netlify team, he's also on the board for that, and we'll talk about those pieces. People might know him, if you check him out on Wikipedia, you know, GitHub, he was one of the co-founders as well as held both CTO and CEO roles there. I could go on but Tom, thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> All right, so let's start there, Tom, you know, when I live in the enterprise space, how do you take advantage of new things? One of the biggest challenges out there is, let's go to something new, but let's do it the old way. And we know that that really doesn't take advantage of it you know, I think back to the oldest, some of the older technologies, it's like, well, you know, if I talk to people that are riding horses, what do they want? You know, well, I want faster horses, not the, you know, let's completely change things. I was hearing a stat that, you know, back in the early days of cars, we had like, 30% of them were electric cars, and now it's one. So what's old is new again, but I digress. One, as I mentioned, you know, GitHub, of course, is, you know, such a fundamental piece when we look at in the technology space over the last decade, you know, get in general, GitHub, specifically, of course, has created so much value engaged, you know, just millions and millions of developers and transform businesses. Take us back a little bit and you know, like to get your philosophy on, you know, building tools, how do you do it? How do you think about it? And what's inspired you? >> Yeah, I think it goes a long way back to just wanting to build things for the community. One of the first big projects I worked on was called Gravatar, and I remember laying in bed staring at the ceiling, just trying to think up some idea that that would contribute to what we then called The Blogosphere, and I came up with an idea for avatars that would follow you around and I coded it up and I got it out to a few bloggers and they started using it, and it caught on and it was really, it really introduced me to this idea that no matter who you are, where you come from, or what your background is, you know, I grew up in Iowa, things are very different there. And with with the Internet, and the ability to code, you can impact the world in really significant ways. And so it follows on from there, and I think GitHub is an extension of that desire to really put things into the world that will be useful for people, and knowing that, if you have the ability to code and especially with the advent of web applications as a common tool, there's such power in that you have global reach, you just need a computer and the ability to code and you can create these things, and GitHub kind of became that. It was just, it started out really as a side project, and I hoped that someday it would be able to support me to work on it full time. But I, we started building it just because we wanted it to exist. And that's most of what I work on is, is just ideas that I want to exist in the world. >> Yeah, it's been one of those great trends to watch at, you know, there were certain technologies that used to have to be a nation state, or, you know, one of the one of the global 50 companies to take advantage of it. Now, tools like GitHub, making it so that, you know, the smallest company or even the individuals can participate in communities, can create and build you know, the building is such an important theme. So Maybe, let's fast forward a little bit if we would, I mentioned Netlify and JAMstack, you talked about the blogosphere, that team is helping to really reinvent how we think about the web, you know, it's real time, It's high performance, and you know, we need to be able to get that to where everybody is. So, you know, back in the early days, web pages, you know, relatively static and, you know, had certain criteria, and now, of course, you know, edge devices and the global population change things. So, you know, you, you've been engaged in a, you know, huge supporter of that project, and that'll lead us towards the redwoods discussion, but maybe bring us as to how you got involved there, and what got you excited? >> Well, like you said, Everything old is new again and I think that's true in fashion. It's also true in technology, in a lot of ways, and the JAMstack really is taking these old ideas where the web started, taking files and just serving them as static files and it's super fast, and it's extremely secure. This is how the internet started, and now we've sort of come full circle. But we've added a lot of really nice things and workflows on top of that. And so my journey into the JAMstack, I suppose, started more than a decade ago, when I started working on a project called Jekyll, that's a, I called it at the time, A Blog Aware Static Site Generator. So you would write your blog articles, and you would run it through Jekyll, and that would take your markdown, you'd write your articles in markdown, and it would combine them with a, some kind of a theme that you would have, and that would output static pages that represented your blog, and then you could serve those from any kind of static blog serving system. GitHub had has one built in called GitHub Pages, and so we ended up adopting Jekyll for GitHub Pages. So everything that you put up on GitHub Pages. would be run through Jekyll, and so it was a really natural place to put your blog. And so I had a blog post, one of my blog posts using Jekyll was called Blogging Like A Hacker. And it was this idea that you don't need WordPress, you don't need to have a database somewhere that's, that's hackable, that's going to cause you security problems, all the WordPress admin stuff that constantly is being attacked. You don't need all that, like you can just write articles in flat files, and then turn them into a blog statically and then put those up to serve them somewhere, right? And so when I say it like that, it sounds a little bit like the JAMstack, right? That's not how we thought about it at the time, because it was really hard to do dynamic things. So if you wanted to have comments on your blog for instance, then you needed to have some third party service that you would embed a component onto your blog, so you could receive comments. And so you had to start gluing things together, but even then, again, that sounds a little bit like the JAMstack. So it's all of these ideas that have been, evolving over the last decade to 15 years, that now we finally have an entire tool chain and adding Git on top of that and Git based workflows, and being able to push to GitHub and someone like Netlify can pick those up and publish them, and you have all these third party services that you can glue together without having to build them yourself. All of the billing things, like there's just the ecosystem is so much more advanced now, so many more bits are available for you to piece together that in a very short amount of time, you can have an extremely performant site capable of taking payments, and doing all of the dynamic things that we want to do. Well, many, I should say many of the dynamic things that we want to do, and it's fast and secure. So it's like the web used to be when the web started, but, now you can do all the modern things that you want to do. >> You're giving me flashbacks remembering how I glued discus into my Tumblr instance when that was rolling out. (laughing) >> That's what I was referring to, discuss. >> Yeah, so absolutely, you talk about there's just such a robust ecosystem out there, and one of the real challenges we have out there is, people will come in and they say, "Oh my gosh, where do I start?" And it's like, well, where do you want to go? There's the Paradox of Choice, and that I believe is one of the things that led you to create Redwoods. So help explain to our audience you know, you created this project Redwood, it related to JAMstack, but, but I'll let you explain you know, what it is in life needed? >> Yeah, Redwood is a response to a couple of things. One of those things, is the JavaScript world has, as everything has evolved in tremendous way, in all kinds of ways and almost entirely positive I think. The language itself has been improved so much from when I was a teenager using view source and copy pasting stuff into you know, some random X Files fan site. To now it's a first class language I can compete with with everything, from a ergonomics perspective. I really enjoy programming in it and I come from a Ruby, Ruby on Rails background and now I'm very happy in JavaScript that was not true even five, seven years ago, right? So JavaScript itself has changed a lot. Along with that comes NPM in the whole packaging universe, of availability of modules, right? So most of the things that you want to do, you can go and you can search and find code that's going to do those things for you, and so being able to, to just pull those into your projects so easily. That is amazing, right? The power that that gives you is tremendous. The problem comes in when, like you said, you have the Paradox of Choice. Now you have, not just one way to do something, but you have 100 ways to do something, right? And now as a as a developer, and especially as a new developer, someone who's just learning how to build web applications, you come into this and you say, all you see is the complexity, just overwhelming complexity, and every language goes through this. They go through a phase of sort of this Cambrian explosion of possibilities as people get excited, and you see that the web is embracing these technologies, and you see what's possible. Everyone gets excited and involved and starts creating solution after solution after solution, often times to the same problems. And that's a good thing, right, like exploring the territory is a good and necessary part of the evolution of programming languages and programming ecosystems. But there's comes a time where that becomes overwhelming and starts to trend towards being a negative. And so at Chatterbug, which is a foreign language learning service, if you want to learn how to speak French or Spanish or German, we'll help you do that, as part of that work, we started using react on the front end, because I really love what react brings you from a JavaScript and interactivity perspective. But along with react, you have to make about 50 other choices of technologies to use to actually create a fully capable website, something for state management, you got to choose a way to do JavaScript or sorry, CSS. There's 100 things that you have to choose, and it's, it seems very arbitrary and you go through a lot of churn, you choose one, and then the next day an article comes out and then people raving about another one, and then you choose, you're like, Oh, that one looks really nice. You know, grass is always greener, and so Redwood is a bit of a, an answer to that, or a response to that, which is to say, we've learned a lot of things now about what works in building with react, especially on the front end. And what I really want to do is have a tool that's more like Ruby on Rails, where I come from, having done years and years of Ruby on Rails, what GitHub was built with. And Ruby on Rails presents to you a fully capable web application framework that has made all the choices or most of the choices, many of the important choices. And the same is kind of missing in the JavaScript TypeScript world and so, when I saw Netlify come out with their feature where you could commit the code for a lambda function to your repository, and if you push that up to GitHub, Netlify will grab it, and they will orchestrate deploying that code to an AWS lambda so that you can run business logic in a lambda but without having to touch AWS, because touching AWS is another gigantic piece of complexity, and their user interfaces are sometimes challenging, I'll say. That, that then made me think that, here finally is the ability to combine everything that's awesome about the JAMstack and static files, and security, and this workflow, with the ability to do business logic, and that sounded to me like the makings of a full stack web application framework, and I kept waiting for someone to come out and be like, hey, tada, like we glued this all together, and here's your thing, that's rails, but for the JAMstack, JavaScript, TypeScript world and nobody was doing it. And so I started working on it myself, and that has become Redwoodjs. >> It's one of the things that excited me the early days when I looked into Serverless was that, that low bar to entry, you know, I didn't have to have, you know, a CS degree or five years of understanding a certain code base to be able to take advantage of it. Feels like you're hoping to extend that, it believe it's one of your passions, you know, helping with with Chatterbug and like, you know, helping people with that learning. What do you feel is the state out there? What's your thoughts about kind of the future of jobs, when it when it comes to this space? >> I think the future of jobs in technology and especially software development is, I mean, there is no, there is no better outlook for any profession than that. I mean, this is the, this is where the world is going, more and more of what we want to accomplish, we do in software and it happens across every industry. I mean, just look at Tesla's for instance, right? You think about automobiles and the car that you owned, you know, 10 years ago, and you're like, I don't know, I know there's a computer in here somewhere, but like, I don't really, you know, either the software for it is terrible, and you're like, who, when was the last time you actually use the navigation system in your car, right? You just like get like just turn that off because it's, it's so horrible. And then Tesla comes along and says, hey, what if we actually made all this stuff useful, and had a thoughtful interface and essentially built a car that where everything was controlled with software, and so now cars are are basically software wrapped in hardware, and the experience is amazing. And the same is true of everything, look at your, look at how many things that your phone has replaced that used to be physical devices. Look at manufacturing processes, look at any any element of bureaucracy, all of this stuff is mediated by computers, and oftentimes it's done badly. But this just shows how much opportunity there is speaking of like governmental websites, right, you go to the DMV, and you try to schedule an appointment, and you just have no confidence that that's going to work out because the interfaces feel like they were written 15 years ago, and sometimes I think they were, written that long ago. But there's so much, there's still so much improvement to be had and all of that is going to take developers to do it. Unless, you know, we figure out how to get AI to do it for us, and there's been some very interesting things lately around that angle, but to me, it's, humans will always be involved. And so, at some level, humans are telling machines what to do, whether you're doing it more or less directly, and having the ability to tell machines what to do gives you tremendous leverage. >> Yeah, we're big fans, if you know Erik Bryjolfsson and Andy McAfee from MIT, they've, you know, are very adamant that it's the combination of people plus machines that always will win against either people alone or machines alone. Tom, what, you know, right now we're in the middle of a global pandemic, there're financially, there's a lot of bad news around the globe right now. I've talked to many entrepreneurs that said, well, a downturn market is actually a great time to start something new. You're an investor, you've helped build lots of things. We talked a lot about lowering the bar for people to create and build new things. What do you see are some of the opportunities out there, if you know, you had to recommend for the entrepreneurs out there? Where should they be looking? >> I'd say look at all of the things in your life that have become challenging, because where there's challenge, where there's pain, there's opportunity for solutions. And especially when there's a big environmental change, which we see right now, with COVID-19, obviously has changed a lot of our behaviors and made some of the things that used to be easy. It's made those a lot harder, and so you see, certain segments of the economy are doing extremely well, namely technology and things that allow us to do interviews like this instead of in person, and so those industries are doing extremely well. So you look at the you look at the stock market in the United States, and it's it's very interesting, because while much of the country is suffering, the people that are already wealthy are doing very well, and technology companies are doing very well. And so the question for me is, what are the opportunities that we have, leveraging technology in the internet, to where we can create more opportunities for more people, to get people back to work, right? I think there's so much opportunity there. Just look at education, like the entire concept of educating kids right now and I have three. So we feel this very much, it has been turned on its head. And so we so you see many people looking for solutions in that space, and that's, I think that's as it should be. When things get, when things get challenged when our, our normal daily experience is so radically changed, there's opportunity there, because people are willing to change more quickly in a crisis, right? Because you need, you need something like any solution. And so some choice is going to be made, and where that's happening, then you can find early adopters more easily, than you can under other circumstances, and so in economic downturns, you often see that kind of behavior where these are crisis moments for people, you have an opportunity to come in and if you have something that could solve a problem for them, then you can get a user where that may have not been a problem for a person before. So where there is, where there is a crisis, there is always opportunity to help people solve their problems in different and better ways to address that crisis. So again, it goes back to pain, you know, and it doesn't have to be the pain from a crisis. It could be a pain from from anything. Just like with GitHub, it was, it was hard to share code as developers like it was, there was too much pain, and this was, we started it in 2008, right after the housing crisis. It was unrelated to that, but it turns out that when you start a company, when the economy is depressed in a certain way, then at least you can look forward to the economy getting better as you are building your company. >> Oh, Tom, Preston Werner, thank you so much for joining pleasure talking with you. I appreciate all of your input. >> Absolutely, thanks for having me. >> I'm Stu Miniman, thank you for joining this Episode of cloud native insights. Thank you for watching the theCUBE. (light music)