>>From around the globe. It's the cube covering Fortinet security summit brought to you by Fortinet. >>Okay. Welcome back everyone. To the cubes, coverage of Fortinets championship golf tournament, we're here for the cybersecurity summit. David got a great guest, Ruby cutoff CEO, and co-founder of Tufin great to have you on. Thank you for coming on the cube. We were chatting before. Came on. Camera, big talk. You just gave it. Thanks mom. Thanks >>For having me >>Not a bad place here. Golf tournament, golf and cybersecurity, kind of go together. You know, keep the ball in the middle of the fairway. You know, don't let it get out of bounds, you know, >>And it's a beautiful place. So, uh, very happy to be here and be a premier sponsor of the event. >>Congratulations and a good, good to have you on let's get into the cybersecurity. We were talking before we came on camera around how transformation is really hard. We went to the cloud is really hard refactoring. You're just really hard, but security is really, really hard. That's true. So how do you look at how security is perceived in companies? Is there dynamics that are being amplified by the rapid moved movement to the cloud? You seeing apps being developed really fast changes fast. What's the, what's the barometer of the industry right now? Sure, >>Sure. It's interesting. And this hasn't really changed in the past, but we've seen like exacerbated getting worse and worse. I think a lot of companies security is actually seen as a blocker and frankly security is probably the most hated department in the organization because a lot of times, first of all, the security says no, but also they just take their time. So if you think about organizations, enterprises, they run on top of their enterprise applications. They have applications that their own in-house developers are writing, and those developers are changing their apps all the time. They're driving change in it as well. So you end up having dozens of change requests from developers want to open connectivity. You want to go from point a to point B on the network. They open a ticket. It reaches the network security team that ticket might take several days until it's implemented in production. So the level of service that security provides the application teams today is really not very high. So you can really understand why security is not, um, looked upon favorably by the rest of the organization. >>And some organizations. My perception is, is that, you know, the hardcore security teams that have been around for awhile, they've got standards and they're hardcore, a new app comes in, it's gotta be approved. Something's gotta get done. And it's slower, right? It slows people down the perception. It could be slow. How is it changing? Yes, >>So it changing because when you're moving to the cloud and a lot of organizations are adopting the cloud in many ways, private cloud, public cloud hybrid cloud, you know, they're working in cloud native environments and those environments, you know, the developers are, they own the keys to the kingdom, right? They're managing AWS Azure, Google cloud to managing get hub. You know, they got the place to themselves. So they're pushing changes in their apps without asking it for permission. So they're suddenly exposed to this is how fast it can really be. And while anything that they do in the on-prem or sort of traditional applications is still moving very slowly unless they're using an automated approach to policy. So one of the things that I spoke about today is the need for organizations to adopt a policy centric approach. So they need to define a policy of who can talk to whom and what conduct to what across the entire organizational network, whether it's firewalls routers, which is cloud platforms. >>And then once you have that policy, you can start automated based on the policy. So the concept is somebody opens a ticket, a developer wants to make a change. They want a ticket in service. Now remedy that ticket reaches, uh, some system that's going to check for compliance against the policy. If you're able to immediately tell if that change is compliant or not, then you're able to make that split-second decision, which might take an analyst a couple of days, and then you can design the perfect minimal change to implement on the network. That is really agile, right? That's what developers want to see. And a lot of security departments are really struggling with that today. >>Why, why are they? That seems like a no brainer because policy-based innovation has been around in the network layer for many, many years decades. Right? We'll see, makes things go better, faster. Why would they be against it? Where were they? >>Yeah. So they're not really against it. I think it's just the sheer complexity and size of today's networks is nothing compared to where it was 10 years ago. So you have tens to hundreds of firewalls in large enterprises, thousands of routers and switches, load balancers, private cloud SDN, like NSX and ACI public cloud Kubernetes. It's just a plethora of networking. So we're thinking of it as proliferation of networking is getting worse and worse, especially with IOT and now moving to the cloud. So it is just so complex that if you don't have specialized tools, there's absolutely no way they'll, you'll be able to. >>So your talk must so gone over well, because I do a lot of interviews and I hear developers talking about shift left, right? Which is, you know, basically vernacular for do security in the dev CIC D pipelining. So while you're there rather than having to go fix the bugs later, this seems to be a hot trend. People like it, they want it, they want to check it off, get it done, move on this policy-based automation, help them here. >>It does in some ways, I mean, so you need a policy for the cloud as well, but there's a different challenge that I see altogether in the cloud. And one of the challenges that we're saying is that there's actually a political divide. You have network security folks who are managing, you know, firewalls routers, switches, and maybe the hub to the cloud. And then inside the spokes inside the cloud itself, you have a different team, cloud operators, cloud security folks. And those two teams don't really talk to each other. Some companies have set up centers of excellence, where they're trying to bring all the experts together. But most companies, network security, folks who want to understand what's happening inside the cloud are sort of given the Heisman. They're not invited to meetings. Um, and there's lack of which I think is tragic because it's not going to go over well. So there's huge challenges in security in the cloud. And unless these two departments are going to talk to each other and work together, we're not going to get anywhere near the level of security that we need. >>The cloud team, the cloud guys, if you will, you know, quote guys or gals and the security guys and gals, they're not getting along. What's the, what's the, is it historical? Just legacy structures? Is it more of my department? I own the keys to the kingdom. So go through me kind of the vibe, or is it more of just evolution of the, developer's going to say, I'm going to go around you like shadow it, um, created the cloud. Is there like a shadow security, but trend around this? >>Yeah, there is. And I think it stems from what we covered in the beginning, which is, you know, app developers are now used to and trained to fear security. Every change they want on the on-prem network takes a week, right? They're moving to the cloud. Suddenly they're able to roam freely, do things quickly. If network security folks come by and say, oh, we want to take a look at those changes. What they're hearing, the music is all we're going to slow you down. And the last thing cloud guys want to hear is that we're going to slow you down. So they have they're fearfully. You know, they're, they're rightly afraid of what's going to happen. If they enable a very cumbersome and slow process, we got to work differently. Right? So there's new paradigms with dev DevSecOps where security is built into the CIC pipeline, where it doesn't slow down app developers, but enables compliance and visibility into the cloud environments at the same time. Great stuff. >>Great insight. I want to ask you your, one of your things in your top that I found interesting. And I like to have you explain it in more detail is you think security can be an enabler for digital transformation. Digital transformation can kick the wrong yeah. With transforming. Okay. Everyone knows that, but security, how does security become that enabler? >>So, I mean, today security is a, um, as a blocker to digital transformation. I think anybody that claims, Hey, we're on a path to digital transformation. We're automated, we're digitally transformed. And yet you asked the right people and you find out every change takes a week on the network. You're not digitally transformed, right? So if you adopt a, a framework where you're able to make changes in a compliant secure matter and make changes in minutes, instead of days, suddenly you'll be able to provide a level of service to app developers like they're getting in the cloud, that's digital transformation. So I see the network change process as pretty much the last piece of it that has not been digitally transformed yet. >>And this is where a lot of opportunity is. Exactly. All right. So talk about what you guys are doing to solve that problem, because you know, this is a big discussion. Obviously security is on everyone's mind. They're reactive to proactive that buying every tool they can platforms are coming out. You're starting to see a control plane. You're starting to see things like collective intelligence networks forming, uh, what's the solution to all this, >>Right? So what we've developed is a security policy layer that sits on top of all the infrastructure. So we've got, uh, four products in the two for an orchestration suite where we can connect to all the major firewalls, router, switches, cloud platforms, private cloud SDN. So we see the configuration in all those different platforms. We know what's happening on the ground. We build a typology model. That is one of the industry's best apology models that enables us to query and say, okay, from point a to point B, which firewalls, router switches and cloud platforms will you traverse. And then we integrate it with ticketing system, like a remedy or service now, so that the user experiences a developer opens a ticket for a change that ticket gets into Tufin. We check it against the policy that was defined by the security managers, the security manager defined a policy of who can talk to whom and what conducted what across the physical network and the cloud. >>So we can tell within a split second, is this compliant or not? If it's not compliant, we don't waste an engineer's time. We kick it back to the original user. But if it is compliant, we use that typology model to perform network change design. So we design the perfect minimal change to implement an every firewall router switch cloud platform. And then the last mile is we provision that change automatically. So we're able to make a change in minutes, instead of days would dramatically better security and accuracy. So the ROI on Tufin is not just security, but agility balanced with security at the same time. So you like the rules of the road, >>But the roads are changing all the time. That's how do you keep track of what's going on? You must have to have some sort of visualization technology when you lay out the topology and things start to be compliant, and then you might see opportunity to do innovative buckets. Hey, you know, I love this policy, but I'm, I'm going to work on my policy because sure. Got to up your game on policy and continue to iterate. Is that how do they, how do your customers Daniel? >>So listen, we we're, uh, we're not a tiny company anymore. We've grown. We went public in April of 2019 race and capital. We have over 500 employees, we sold over 2000 customers worldwide. So, um, you know, when customers ask us for advice, we come in and help them with consulting or professional services in terms of deployment. And the other piece is we gotta keep up all the time with what's happening with Fortnite. For example, as, as one of our strategic partners, every time fortnight makes the change we're on the beta program. So we know about a code change. We're able to test them the lab we know about their latest features. We got to keep up with all that. So that takes a lot of engineering efforts. We've hired a lot of engineers and we're hiring more. Uh, so it takes a lot of investment to do this at scale. And we're able to deliver that for our customers. >>I want the relationship with 400. I see you're here at the golf tournament. You're part of the pavilion. You're part of the tournament by the way. Congratulations. Great, great, great event. Thank you. What's the relationship with food and air from a product and a customer technology standpoint, >>We're working closely with Fortnite, where they're a strategic partner of ours. We're integrated into their Fordham manager, APIs. We're a fabric ready solution for them. So obviously working closely. Some of our biggest customers are fortnight's biggest customers will get the opportunity to sponsor this event, which is great tons of customers here and very interesting conversations. So we're very happy with that relationship. >>This is good. Yeah. So that ask you, what have you learned? I think you got great business success. Looking back now to where we are today, the speed of the market, what's your big takeaway in terms of how security changed and it continues to be challenging and these opportunities, what was the big takeaway for you? >>Well, I guess if you were like spanning my career, uh, the big takeaway is, uh, first of all, and just in startup world, patients think things come to those away, but also, um, you know, just, you got to have the basics, right? What we do is foundational. And there were times when people didn't believe in what we do or thought, you know, this is minor. This is not important as people move to the cloud, this won't matter. Oh, it matters. It matters not just in on-prem and it matters in the cloud as well. You gotta have a baseline of a policy and you gotta base everything around that. Um, and so w we've sort of had that mantra from day one and we were right. And we're, we're very happy to be where we are today. Yeah. >>And, you know, as a founder, a co-founder of the company, you know, most of the most successful companies I observed is usually misunderstood for a long time. That's true. Jesse's favorite quote on the cube. He's now the CEO of Amazon said we were misunderstood for a long time. I'm surprised it took people this long to figure out what we were doing. And, and that was good. A good thing. So, you know, just having that north star vision, staying true to the problem when there were probably opportunities that you are like, oh, we, you know, pressure or sure. Yeah. I mean, you stayed the course. What was the, what was the key thing? Grit focused. Yes. >>Looking to startup life. It's sorta like being in sales. We, we got told no, a thousand times before we got told yes. Or maybe a hundred times. So, uh, you gotta, you gotta be, um, you got to persevere. You gotta be really confident in what you're doing and, uh, just stay the course. And we felt pretty strongly about what we're building, that the technology was right. That the need of the market was right. And we just stuck to our guns. >>So focus on the future. What's the next five, five years look like, what's your focus? What's the strategic imperative for you guys. What's your, what's your, what do you mean working on? >>So there's several things that on the business side, we're transitioning to a subscription-based model and we're moving into SAS. One of our products is now a SAS based product. So that's very important to us. We also are now undergoing a shift. So we have a new version called Tufin Aurora Tufin Aurora is a transformation. It's our next generation product. Uh, we're rearchitected the entire, uh, underlying infrastructure to be based on microservices so we could be cloud ready. So that's a major focus in terms of engineering, uh, and in terms of customers, you know, we're, we're selling to larger and larger enterprises. And, uh, we think that this policy topic is critical, not just in the on-prem, but in the cloud. So in the next three years, as people move more and more to the cloud, we believe that what we do will be, become even more relevant as organization will straddle on-premise networks and the cloud. So >>Safe to say that you believe that policy based architecture is the key to automation. >>Absolutely. You can't automate what you don't know, and you can't people, like I mentioned this in my talk, people say, oh, I can do this. I can cook up an Ansible script and automate, all right, you'll push a change, but what is the logic? Why did you make that decision? Is it based on something you've got to have a core foundation? And that foundation is the policy >>Really great insight. Great to have you on the cube. You've got great success and working knowledge and you're in the right place. And you're skating to where the puck is and will be, as they say, congratulations on your success. Thank >>You very much. Thanks for having >>Me. Okay. Keep coming here. The Fortinet championship summit day, cybersecurity summit, 40 minutes golf tournament here in Napa valley. I'm John Firmicute. Thanks for watching.

>> It's The Cube covering Fortinet Security Summit brought to you by Fortinet. >> Hey and welcome back to the cubes coverage of Fortinets championship series. Cybersecurity summit here in Napa valley Fortinet is sponsoring the PGA tour event, kicking off the season here, and the cubes here as part of the coverage. And today is cybersecurity day where they bring their top customers in. We got Glenn Katz SVP, general manager, Comcast Enterprise Solutions. Glenn, thanks for coming on The Cube. Thanks for taking time out of your day. - Thank you no This is great. This is great. >> Interviewer: Tell me to explain what you guys do in the Comcast business enterprise group. >> That's our Comcast business. We're a part of Comcast overall. I always like to explain what Comcast really is. If you look at Comcast, it's a technology innovation company by itself that happens to focus on communications and media type of, of markets, right? And if you look at the Comcast side there on the communication side, it's really everything residential with customers. Then there's the us Comcast business and we're the fastest growing entity over the last 15 years within Comcast. And we started in small business, voice, video, and data to small businesses. Then we moved up to provide fiber ethernet type of a transport to mid-market. And then my group started in 2014. And what we do is focus on managed services. It doesn't matter who the transport layer is for enterprise Fortune 1000 type companies. And then when you layer in all these managed wider network services. So that's my business unit. >> Interviewer: Well, we appreciate it we're a customer by the way in Palo Alto >> Glen: Oh great >> So give a shout out to you guys. Let's get into the talk you're giving here about cybersecurity, because I mean, right now with the pandemic, people are working at home. Obviously everyone knows the future of work is hybrid now you're going to see more decentralized defy and or virtual spaces where people are going to want to work anywhere and businesses want to have that extension, right? What people are talking about, and it's not new, but it's kind of new in the sense of reality, right? You've got to execute. This is a big challenge. >> Glen: It is - What's your thoughts on that, >> Well it's a big challenge. And one of the things that I'll try to, I'll speak to this afternoon here, which is at least from the enterprise perspective, which includes the headquarters, the enterprise, the branch locations, the digital commerce, everywhere else, commerce is being done. It's not just at a store anymore. It's everywhere. Even if you only have a store and then you have the remote worker aspect. I mean, they do that to your point earlier. We're not in that fortress sort of security mentality anymore. There's no more DMZs it's done. And so you've got to get down to the zero trust type of network architecture. And how do you put that together? And how does that work? Not just for remote workers that have to access the enterprise applications, but also for simple, you know, consumers or the business customers of these, of these enterprises that have to do business from over the phone or in the store. >> Interviewer: What are the some of the challenges you hear from your customers, obviously, business of the defend themselves now the, the, the attacks are there. There's no parameters. You mentioned no fortress. There's more edge happening, right? Like I said, people at home, what are the top challenges that you're hearing from customers? >> So the biggest challenge, and this is, I would think this is, this is mostly focused on the enterprise side of it is that the is two interesting phenomenons going on. This is sort of beginnings before the pandemic. And then of course the pandemic, the role of the CIO has been elevated to now, they have a real seat at the table. Budgets are increasing to a point, but the expertise needed in these, in these it departments for these large enterprises, it's, it's impossible to do what you were just talking about, which is create a staff of people that can do everything from enterprise applications, e-commerce analytics, the network. How do you secure that network all the way down to the end users? Right? So it's that middle portion. That's the biggest challenge because that takes a lot of work and a lot of effort. And that's where folks like Comcast can come in and help them out. That's their biggest challenge. They can handle the enterprise, they can handle the remote workers. They can handle their own applications, which are continually trying to be, you know, have to be it's competitive out there. It's that middle area, that communications layer that their challenged with. >> Interviewer: Yeah. And John Madison's EVP, CMO Ford. It's always talking about negative unemployment in cybersecurity. Nevermind just the staff that do cyber >> Glen: That's exactly right, that's given. If you're a business, you can't hire people fast enough and you might not have the budget for you want to manage service. So how do you get cyber as a service? >> Glen: Well, so it's even bigger than that. It's not just the cyber as a service because it's now a big package. That's what SASE really is SASE is Secure Access Service Edge. But think of it where I think of it is you've got remote users, remote workers, mobile apps on one side, you've got applications, enterprise or commercial that are now moved into different cloud locations. And in the middle, you've got two real fundamental layers, the network. And, and that includes uh, the actual transport, the software defined wide area, networking components, everything that goes with that, that's the network as a service. And then you've got the secure web gateway portion, which includes everything to secure all the data, going back and forth between your remote laptop, the point of sales. And let's say the cloud based applications, right? So that's really the center stage right there. >> Interviewer: And the cloud has brought more service at the top of the stack. I mean, people thought down stack up stack is kind of like a geeky terms. You're talking about innovation. If you're down stack with network and transport, those are problems that you have to solve on behalf of your customers And make that almost invisible. And that's your job >> That's our job. That's our job is to service provider What's interesting is though back in the day, I mean, when, I mean, back in the day, it could have been 10 years ago in 20. You really, you know, you had stable networks, they were ubiquitous, they were expensive and they were slow. That's kind of the MPLS legacy TDM. Yeah. So you just put them in and you walked away and you still did all your enterprise. You still did all of your applications, but you had your own private data centers. Everything was nicer. It was that fortress mentality right now. It's different. Now everybody needs broadband. Well guess what? Comcast is a big company, but we don't have broadband everywhere. ATT doesn't have it. Verizon doesn't have it Charter doesn't have it. Right. So you need, so now to think about that from enterprise, I'm going to go, I'll give you an example. All of our customers to fulfill a nationwide network, just for the broadband infrastructure, that's, you know, redundant. If you want to think of it that way we, we source probably 200 to 300 different providers to provide an ubiquitous network nationwide for broadband. Then we wrap a layer of the SD wan infrastructure for that, as an example, over the top of that, right? You can't do that by yourself. I mean, people try and they fail. And that's the role of a managed service provider like us is to pull all that together. Take that away. We have that expertise. >> Interviewer: I think this is a really interesting point. Let's just unpack that just for a second. Yeah. In the old days, we want to do an interconnect. You had an agreement. You did, you have your own stuff, do an interconnected connect. >> Glen: Yep. >> Now this, all this mishmash, you got to traverse multiple hops, different networks. >> Glen: That's right >> Different owners, different don't know what's on that. So you guys have to basically stitch this together, hang it together and make it work. And you guys put software on the top and make sure it's cool is that how it works? >> Glen: Yeah. Software and different technology components for the SD wan. And then we would deliver the shore and manager all that. And that's, that's where I really like what's happening in the industry, at least in terminology, which is they try, you have to try to simplify that because it's very, very complicated, but I'm going to give you the network as a service mean, I'm going to give you all the transport and you have to don't have to worry about it. I'm going to rent you the, the SD wan technology. And then I'm going to have in my gateways all these security components for a firewall as a service, zero trust network access, cloud brokerage services. So I will secure all of your data as you go to the cloud and do all of that for you. That's really what we, that's what we bring to the table. And that's what is really, really hard for enterprises to do today. Just because they can't, the expertise needed to do that is just not there. >> Interviewer: Well, what's interesting is that first you have to do it now because the reality of your business now is you don't do it. You won't have customers, but you're making it easier for them. So they don't have to think about it. - [Glen] That's right. >> But now you bring in hybrid networking hybrid cloud, they call it or multi-cloud right. It's essentially a distributed computing and essentially what you're doing, but with multiple typologies, >> Glen: that's right. >> Interviewer: I got an edge device. - [Glen] That's right. If I'm a business. - [Glen] That's right. >> That's where it could be someone working at home >> Glen: That's right. - Or it could be my retail >> Or whatever it could be. So edge is just an extension of what you guys already do. And is that right? Am I getting that right? >> Glen: Yeah that's exactly right. And, and, but the point is, is to make it economic and to make it really work for the end user. If you're a branch, you may have a, a application that's still being run via VPN, but you also need wifi internet for your customers because you want to use your mobile device. They've entered into your store and you want to be able to track that right. And push something to them. And then you've got the actual store applications could be point of sales could be back of house comparing that's going up to AWS. Azura whatever. Right. And that all has to be, it all has to come from one particular branch and someone has to be able to manage that capability. >> Interviewer: It's funny, - Its so different >> Interviewer: just as you're talking, I'm just thinking, okay. Facial recognition, high, high bandwidth requirements, >> Glen: Huge high bandwidth requirements >> Processing at the edge becomes huge. >> Glen: It does. >> So that becomes a new dynamic. >> Glen: It does. It's got to be more dynamic. It's not a static IP end point. >> Glen: Well, I'll give you another an example. Let's say it's, it seems silly, but it's so important from a business perspective, your quick service restaurant, the amount of digital sales from applications are just skyrocketing. And if you yourself, and particularly in the pandemic, you order something, or that goes up to the cloud, comes back through, goes to the point of sales. And then the, the back of house network in a particular restaurant, if that doesn't get there, because one line of you only have one internet connection and it's down, which sometimes happens, right? You lose business, you lose that customer. It's so important. So what's being pushed down to the edge is, you know, reliable broadband hybrid networks, where you have a primary wire line and a secondary wire line, maybe a tertiary wireless or whatever. And then a box, a device that can manage between those two so that you can keep that 99.9, 9% availability at your branch, just for those simple types of applications. >> Interviewer: You know Glenn, you as you're talking most people, when we talk tech, like this is mostly inside the ropes, Hey, I can get it. But most people can relate with the pandemic because they've ordered with their phone on - [Glen] Exactly right >> With the QR code. - [Glen] That's exactly right >> They see the menu - [Glen] That's right >> They get now what's happening - [Glen] That's right that their phone is now connected to the service. >> Glen: That's right >> This is not going away. The new normal. >> Glen: No, it's absolutely here. And what I've seen are there are many, many companies that already knew this and understood this pre pandemic. And they were, they had already changed their infrastructure to really fit what I was calling that network as a service in the SASE model, in different ways. Then there were a bunch that didn't, and I'm not going to name names, but you can look at those companies and you can see how they're, they're struggling terribly. But then there was this. Now there's a, a much bigger push and privatization again, see, I was sending, Hey, I asked for this before. It's not like the CIO didn't know, but management said, well, maybe it wasn't important. Now it is. And so you're seeing this actual amazing surge in business requests and requirements to go to the model that we're all talking about here, which is that SASE type of implementation high-speed broadband. That's not going away for the same reason. And you need a resilient network, right? Yes. >> Interesting. Best practice. Let's just take that advice to the, to the audience. I want to get your thoughts because people who didn't do any R and D or experimentation prior to the pandemic, didn't have cloud. Wasn't thinking about this new architecture got caught flat-footed. -Exactly. >> And they're hurting and or out of business. >> Correct. >> If people who were on the right side of that took advantage as a tailwind and they got lifts. >> That's exactly right. >> So what is the best practice? How should a business think about putting their toe in the water a little bit or jumping in and getting immersed in the new, new architecture? What advice would you give? Because people don't want to be in the wrong side of history. >> No, they don't. >> What's your guy's best practice? >> I may sound biased, but I'm really not trying to be biased. And this'll be some of the I'll speak about here later today. You have to try it. You, as the end user, the enterprise customer, to, to fulfill these types of needs, you've got to really probe your managed service providers. You've got to understand which ones, not just can give you a nice technology presentation and maybe a POC, but who's going to be there for the longterm who has the economic wherewithal to be able to give the resources needed to do what I was talking about, which is you're going to outsource your entire network to me and your sh, and a good portion of your security for the network to a service provider. that service provider has to be able to provide all that has to be able to have the financial capabilities, to be able to provide you with an operating type of model, not you have to buying equipment all the time. That service provider has to be able to have teams that can deliver all of that 200 to 300 different types of providers aggregate all that, and then be there for day two. Simple thing. Like if you know, most companies, if you're not a really large location, you can't afford to, you know, double types of routers that are connected. And if one fails you have fail over, right, most of them will have one router and they'll have, but they'll have two backup paths. Well, what happens is that router or switch, single switch fails? You need to have a meantime to repair a four hours. I mean, that's kind of basic and well do that. How do you do that? You've got to have depots around the entire country. These are the types of questions that any enterprise customers should be probing their managed service provider, right? It's not just about the technology. It's about how can you deliver this and assure this going forward. >> And agility too cause when, if, if things do change rapidly, being agile... >> Exactly >> means shifting and being flexible with your business. >> That's exactly right. And that's important. That's a really important question. And the agility comes from this financial agility, right? Like new threat, new box. I want, I want this old one. I'm going to upgrade to a different type of service. The service providers should be able to do that without me having to force you to go get some more CapEx and buy some more stuff. Cause that's number one. But the other agility is every enterprise is different. Every enterprise believes that its network is the only network in the world and they have opinions and they've tested different technologies. And you're going to have to adapt a little bit to that. And if you don't, you're not going to get out of this. >> It's funny. The old days non-disruptive operations was like a benefit, we have non-disrupt- now it's a table stakes. You can't disrupt businesses. - You can't. You can't at the branch at the remote worker. If you're on a zoom call or whatever, or you're on a teams call, we've all been there. We're still doing it. If it breaks in the middle of a presentation to a customer that's problem. >> Glenn thanks for coming on the cube with great insight. >> Oh great. This was fun. >> Are you exciting and plays golf? You're going to get out there on the range? >> I played, I played golf a lot when I was younger, but I haven't. And so I have a few other things I do, but I guess I'm going to have to learn now that we're also a sponsor of PGA, so yeah, for sure. >> Great. Well, great to have you on - All right thank you and great talk. Thanks for coming on and sharing your insight. >> This was great. I appreciate okay. >> Keep coverage here. Napa valley with Fortinet's Cybersecurity Summit as part of their PGA tour event, that's happening this weekend. I'm John for the Cube. Thanks for watching.