>> Announcer: Live from Anaheim, California. It's theCUBE, covering Nutanix.NEXT, 2019. Brought to you by Nutanix. >> Welcome back the theCUBE's live coverage of Nutanix.NEXT here in Anaheim California. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. Along with my co-host John Furrier. Here we are, we're at day two, John, this conference, I gotta say it's pretty cool. 6500 people, we're steps away from Disneyland, and, you go to a lot of these things every year. I also do about a dozen or so for theCUBE. So in other words, we're veterans of this kind of thing. This does seem to have a different vibe and I think it really gets to the kind of company Nutanix is, and where it is in its journey. >> Nutanix is still a small company even though they're 10 years old, as Dheeraj talks about. The numbers aren't massive, I mean, we go to a lot of other shows where it's 15,000, Amazon Web Services just had an event in London, Dave Vellante was out there covering, Stu was covering Red Hat summit in Boston this week, tons of events going on. Amazon Web Services' summit in comparison was 12,500 people, 22,000 registered, that's a summit in London. It's not the re:Invent main conferences like 30,000 people. And that's always sold out, so they got a lot, in terms of attendees numbers they're still in the entry level, mid range growth. But I think that's okay, they like that culture and I think the story here at this show is intimacy, they would rather err on the side of better content and more intimate opportunities for their customers to really get the straight scoop. And I think it's less of a conference slash trade show, more of an intimate relationships where they can provide feedback, for customers to give feedback, and for Nutanix to figure out with the customers how to connect to them. So, I think the story here is, Nutanix is growing up as a company, they're 10 years old and they gotta go the next level and the management team has technical chops, and they have a long term view. They have that 20 mile stare, they can see out and they're trying to figure it out. I still think that the numbers are light on their forecast I still think that there's some sandbagging going on there, I'm not saying they're sandbagging, but I mean, I think, you look at Essentials, which is the enterprise and then multi-cloud, the numbers that we're seeing at Wikibon are much bigger, and Amazon reflects that. So I think they're being cautious but smart about how they execute off their success they've had in the first 10 years to go the next 10 to 20 years and I think that's clear in the management team, that they wanna build a durable company. >> Well exactly, and I think that that's what's really coming through, is that this is, as you said, they're growing up. This is a real coming of age moment for them, they've celebrated the 10 years. Okay, so what kind of company are we? Who do we want to be? And what's coming through is that from the technology side, they get it. They say, I'm sort of reminded of the Henry David Thoreau quote, our life is frittered away by detail, simplify simplify simplify, that's what customers want. They want this one click data recovery, they want their credentials to be assumed. You know who I am, I'm safe to be in here. Fixing things, dealing with that. So I think that they get that, that simplicity is key. They also get customer service. I mean their Net Promoter scores, as we've noted, are in the 90s, that's just unheard of. >> It's monster, monster numbers. >> It really is and so they get it. We need to be responsive to customers, we need to have a personal relationship with these, because it's not just organizations, it's people at the other end of these transactions. >> I mean, I think Nutanix, one of the stories that's popping out in the hallways as I walk around and talk to customers and people and the company and partners, is that Nutanix has a lot of headroom in their growth. I think Wall Street is interesting and you heard Dheeraj talk about that yesterday, about having a new customer, you asked him about his management style and he said quote, I have a new customer called Wall Street. And I have to balance that against mainstream enterprise which is his core business. And so he as a CEO and the company are dealing with this new stakeholder called public company customer retail stock buyers. That's a short term cycle and I think, if you look at their stock, they had a big knife edge drop in the past quarter. And I think the shorts are circling, it's a whole nother dynamic, it's a whole nother theater for Nutanix to deal with, and I think that's something that they gotta get used to. And he was clear, he said I'm addressing it, we're gonna balance it, but they gotta be thinking long term because this company has a lot more to do and their customer base are risk takers. Because everyone we talk to has this different style or persona. They're smart, they're usually engineering oriented, they love engineered solutions. And they're taking chances. And everyone who's taken the chance with Nutanix, has paid off. That seems to be the theme. And as we were talking before we came on camera, Mark Hamill, Jedi knight, you know, Star Wars, was on stage giving the keynote, their customer base, is a lot like the Jedi order, right? I mean they see themselves as, elite, technically, they're not afraid to take organizational risks and push that DevOps culture. And we heard that from Sunil, the chief product officer that they're really looking at, this new way to do things, like they did with hyperconvergence, they pioneered that, set the table on that and foundationally built that. They wanna take that same playbook of HCI, hyperconverged infrastructure, and apply it to the cloud. And provide an abstraction layer advantage and I think that is clearly their strategy and that's, to me, the top story here. >> I couldn't agree more and I also think that, what is also coming through is this idea of we don't wanna be safe. What's clear is that, consumer technologies have leapfrogged IT enterprise vendors. The things that we hold in our pockets are so much more sophisticated than what businesses and organizations, multi-billion dollar businesses and organizations, are using, what their employees are using on a day to day basis. So we expect a certain kind of design and ease of use, in our personal lives and they're bringing it to enterprises and think that that is really what's exciting and interesting about this company. >> What's interesting about their story is that, the consistent theme about the customers is that it's kind of a consolidation story but that's not the real story because back in the old days of IT, consolidation was the strategy. Consolidate vendors, consolidate footprint to reduce cost, clearly a cost reduction. With Nutanix what they get is they get consolidation, and they enable advantages so the real value of Nutanix is to be positioned for those new kinds of app developers, so. This is like, you get consolidation as a side benefit for enabling the value, and that's the theme that's coming out of all the customer testimonials and interviews is, we gotta do more, we gotta create more enablement for the app developers and we gotta provide more performant storage servers and software for the customers. And that's their main focus and they consolidation as a benefit. That's gonna scare a lot of people and customers that I've talked to said, hey I got all the stuff but I can't just throw it away tomorrow, I gotta move it out over time, so, this is the Nutanix sales challenge, how do you move faster with all that incumbent, legacy stuff in these datacenters, while enabling the multi-cloud capability? >> And we're gonna be talking about that more today with Chris Kaddaras on the show. We have a lot of great guests, we have the CIO, Wendy Pfeiffer, I was reading an article about her today, she answered an ad as a teenager to work for NASA. She had an idea for NASA and so we're gonna hear much more about her story, we've got a lot of great guests. >> Well what's your take? I mean, you've been here, you're getting immersed in. What's your take of the show, what's your analysis? >> Well, what's really interesting to me is that we're having this conversation against this backdrop where, the technology industry is really under fire. I mean, we heard Ayanna Howard here on the show yesterday and then she was up on the main stage today, talking about the good, the bad, and then the really scary elements of AI and how it really has these powers that can do a lot of wonderful things and help children with special needs and help workers be more productive and engaged and collaborate. But yet, there's also this much darker side that AI's really only as good as its creators. And then the other difficulty is that, because we have become so trusting of these machines, we disregard our own intuition. And that is a really scary element, so. What I think is exciting, and it goes back to this risk taking mentality, that Nutanix has, is, we're gonna talk about these things. We're just going to forget about them or they're gonna be a sideshow, this is really on the main stage, let's talk about our values, let's talk about the humanity of technology and this is really an important part of the conversation. >> It's interesting, the culture, we talked about the culture a lot yesterday. And you can see from the mix of the guests we've had here and how they're putting their content together across the show portfolio, it's not just speeds and feeds. There's a lot of tech for good angle but they're not tech for good stories like hey, look, here's a tech for good story. Look how good we are because we promote it. They're authentic people that have a great story that has a tech involvement. But it's not a pure Nutanix messaging kind of thing. >> Right, and it goes to back to their values, the humble, hungry, honest, and have a lot of heart. I mean I think that that is, you really see how important culture is, when it is top down. When Dheeraj embodies certain characteristics and traits, you see that employees then look up and they say okay, this is what we're about, this is who we are. >> You know, we also talked yesterday about our analysis in the keynote, what's interesting about culture is, there's also a culture shift going on inside their customer base. And again, it's back to this kind of Star Wars theme, Jedi knights and the revolution continuing for Nutanix, their opportunity is to continue to stay on the course, and this is gonna be a big bet for them, they gotta make some big bets on the technology side, which they're making, but also they have an opportunity because a lot of their installed base are rebels, right? So you have this rebellion IT guy, generational shift where you have DevOps coming in and Gene Kim who wrote the book on DevOps, runs the biggest DevOps event in the world, series of events, DevOps Enterprise Summit, he's even saying it's about 3% changeover. So I think there's a big tailwind coming for Nutanix. Around DevOps, operating models, in the enterprise and cloud where, the convergence of those two worlds coming together, and it's gonna be a younger generation, it's gonna be a different world. If that happens, I think that's gonna be something that Wall Street might not see. I think that's kind of an area. And that's gonna be a good tailwind for Nutanix. The other notable thing that I would point out from this show is, the presence of VMware visibly in the conversation. And I think Dheeraj was talking about, hey we don't mind talking about VMware because they validate the marketplace, they're the big 800 pound gorilla. And we're gonna continue to innovate around them. We don't need their Hypervisor, customers don't need to pay their vTax, that's his messaging, so that was a key notable. The other one was the challenge that Nutanix has, this is, again, might be a Wall Street insight for some of the Wall Street folks out there is that, their challenge has been getting new logos. Their cost to sales is a little bit high because they require POCs and once they get in there they usually win. And then their cost per sales, cost per order dollar on the sales side once they have a customer, is very low, they get more renewals and they have more net contract value so they have great customer economics on that side. The Hewlett Packard Enterprise deal for them, could bring them a tsunami of new logos. That could give them a lot of leverage and bring their customer base well above their 12,000 number now. And bring them up into a whole nother level. So I think the HPE deal will be a tell sign on the numbers, and if they can get more new logos in there, the big accounts that HP has through their channel, that's a big story. So VMware, HPE, culture, all the main story here. >> And of course we had HPE on the show yesterday, talking about that very development, so. We have lots more great content, great guests to come today, this has been just a ball hosting with you, so I'm really for another day. >> Very intimate show, I mean, Nutanix are a very intimate show they don't really care about the big numbers, they want the right numbers and that speaks to their culture. >> And they know their people. Because as we talked about many times, Mark Hamill, up on the stage yesterday, so, they know their community. Please stay tuned for more of the coverage from theCUBE of .NEXT here in Anaheim. I'm Rebecca Knight for John Furrier, stay tuned. (electronic music)

(uplifting music) >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and welcome to a CUBE Conversation. Really excited to have a start up in the serverless space here in our studios in Palo Alto. Welcome to the program, first-time guest, we have Nate Taggart, who's the CEO, and Farrah Campbell, who's the Ecosystem Manager, both with Stackery. Thank you so much for joining us. >> Stu, thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> Farrah, I know you're just in from Vegas and from the DevOps Enterprise Summit. Why don't we start there a little bit? DevOps, this big wave, a lot of changes, what's the energy you're hearing, what are people talking about what's exciting them these days? >> A lot of things are exciting them. I think that the whole ecosystem is changing. There's so much happening it's almost like the 80s and 90s, you know what I mean, where there's like the dot-commer I guess. There's so much new technology that's out there and it's available. I think that people are really trying to understand where they should go. Maybe I've already started with containers, now people are talking about serverless. What do I do? >> It's a great point. These waves of technology come so fast. When people write their strategy, you might now even want to write it in ink. (Nate and Farrah laughs) They may be drawing because Clay Christensen always says it's something you should revisit. You should go at least once a quarter. It's directionally where I need to go, but things change. All right, Nate, Stackery. Bring us back. First, give us a little bit about the team's background, yourself and what led to the formation of the company. >> Yeah, thanks, Stu. My founding team actually comes out in New Relic. We were early employees there, stayed 'til the IPO. We've worked building, DevTooling for a long time, hand-managing at scale infrastructure. One of the things that we found was, I mean, New Relic was a high-velocity engineering team and the bottleneck, in many cases, was infrastructure. After New Relic, I worked with the data science group at GitHub, again, building massive data infrastructure and the bottleneck was not figuring out what to do. It wasn't the work in front of us. It was the underlying, un-differentiate heavy-lifting of infrastructure. Chase Douglas, my co-founder, and I, when we saw AWS Lambda come out us, it's the first example of a wave of serverless services, we got really excited and realized this took away a lot of the barriers and a lot of the burden of building new applications, started playing with it. This was three years ago. Over the next few years, we've been working with all the serverless pioneers figuring out what are the changes that they're experiencing from their operations cycle from managing the life cycle of an application, how are their teams in the dynamics changing the workflow. We took those best practices and built it into Stackery, which is now a software product to accelerate serverless operations. >> We've been watching this for a while. Give us a little bit of a perspective first. There's some things different about this serverless wave or functions as a service. I'm an infrastructure guy by background and we've always wanted to not have the boat anchors of network and storage slow us down, but I lived through the virtualization wave. (Nate laughs) I've got the scars of over a decade. >> Sure. >> Working in the ecosystem of trying to fix that. Everybody got super excited when containers in a Docker helped bring that to the mainstream, but it was tools helping us move up the stack a little. Serverless, to me, when I look at it, it really starts from the application level down and there's still lots of infrastructure stuff. It's not like it disappears. I've got the great T-shirt from the cloud guru people. (Nate laughs) It's like there is no cloud of someone else's computer, they have the longer version of that for serverless. I love your viewpoint 'cause, New Relic, they'd seen, they track, they monitor that, you had a great way to look at it, GitHub of course, but what's the same, what's different about what's so important about serverless and what it does for companies? >> Fundamentally, we're looking at just two different patterns and neither one of them is right or wrong, but they have different use cases, different applications, areas where they excel. New Relic was a big champion in early pioneer of Docker. We used a lot of containers, a lot of orchestration technology, so I'm still a big proponent of that. I think when I look at the serverless marker today, it's tempting to look at it as an abstraction layer, disfunction as a service, there's maybe micro-container type view. It's not really the pattern we're seeing in industry. What we're actually seeing is people are saying it's a manage service and it's not just Lambda, it's not just compute as a manage service. It's me stringing together the manage components I need to develop quickly and deliver business value to focus on business logic instead of the plumbing. I think API Gateway is manage service, I think there's manage databases in their manage service, there's event streams. You pull all the pieces together and Lambda may be a component of that. In that way, it actually fits in and compliments a container program. >> Absolutely. What I was trying to say is containers kill VMs and serverless kills this. It's kind of like cloud is more of an operation model. >> Sure. >> Serverless is more of how I build my applications and services that I can use, not the unit of how I build something. Farrah, when I look at it, the conversations I've had with users, it's not the okay, let me take the person that did some silo and teach them to code or put that together. I've talked to marketing people that are like, "I got involved and I can do this." What are you seeing from the personnel and who's using it, how is it very different from what we've seen in the past? >> I think it opens up a lot of doors. I think it makes the unattainable attainable. You see people that go from front end to full stack. It takes you to the tip of technology. I'm mentoring a woman that is using serverless as a way to get app out. She doesn't understand infrastructure, she doesn't understand all the ops and how to set all those things up and it would take a long time to figure all those things out. Those are harder doors to open. Everything's been done the same for a very long time. There's like this free knowledge is shared here. Serverless has an ecosystem. It's kind of like a community where everybody is working together, sharing knowledge and trying to actually build something bigger and better, something that feels good to be a part of. We have a lady that's working at our office coming out of code school and she is a killer engineer. You can talk more about what Anna's doing for us at Stackery, but she's coming out of a code school and is operating as if she's a full-stack engineer >> I think that's really the compelling story behind serverless, is focus on business value. >> Yeah. >> And that's the mission of every software engineer. It's the reason most of us got into software engineering was 'cause we wanted to solve puzzles, we wanted to work with logic and idea, we wanted to build. We didn't want to sit and configure infrastructure as code templates in order to stand up some basic EC2 server, so that we can run our application, right? >> Nate, maybe you troned a little bit for us. What does Stackery do in this ecosystem? What are you helping customers? If you've got any customer examples, we'd love to hear that. >> Absolutely. First off, the development model is changing. If you want to do serverless, serverless, again, is a manage service. I can't replicate all of AWS on my laptop. In order to work with these manage services, in the development cycle, I'm shipping code to the cloud. I'm provisioning resources in the cloud. Maybe in my own account or a developer account, but I have to know how to provision those resources and then configure those resources. If I'm doing this in a professional environment, then it means I need to do this in a way that's automated, scalable, I can hand off to someone else, they can replicate and this is the workflow to tooling, the guardrails that Stackery brings to your serverless program. We make it so that a developer can take a branch out of version control and deploy their own instance of it in their sand-boxed environment within their AWS account. This was kind of automation workflows, handling of configuration templating, being able to pull a resource off the shelf, I need to put my database in a VPC (Nate snaps fingers) and boom, it's pre-configured and ready for you to go. >> Okay. >> Stackery also enables you to work on your core problems. I'm not busy trying to research how the 1400 services are going to interact with each other. I don't have time to do that. I'm trying to focus on one of my projects. I'm focused on a deadline. I'm trying to get a specific task done. I don't have time to research for a week to try to get that, to figure that out. Not only that, it's not a language, so focusing time and trying to figure out and formulate cloud formation, it seems like a waste of time. >> The flip side of this is that that is some of the most important mission critical work that teams are doing. You can't provision into your production AWS account if you have misconfigured IM roles. You don't want to open access to that account to every single person in the organization. You don't want misconfigured resources. This new model, this new development change, where the application is at the heart of the life cycle, if we're not helping people to quickly stand up correctly configured resources then we're putting more load on the ITT, more load on the operational team and actually slowing down development. >> Bring us inside. When do you usually get engaged, who's driving those engagements, when you talk about write, what were they doing before and what does this enable them to do once they're engaged? >> Even though serverless feels like an infrastructure solution, it's actually the application development side of the house that tends to be the leading adopter. A lot of cases, they're trying to un-bottleneck their operations team or not send them low-criticality work loads. A typical entry point might be something like a cron job. We have this little function that just needs to run once a day. Do I really need to have a capacity-planning meeting with the ops team to get this out in production? They go, "Okay, we'll write the code, we'll ship it as a serverless function and we'll get it out the door." That works really well when you're a single-principle engineer with maybe elevated privileges in your cloud accounts. It doesn't work so well as a replicable process that you can then scale across the org. I don't think ops leaders want just like let's open the gates to our kingdom. Instead, what we see is that four companies to go through a maturing curve of embracing this technology where they go from background tasks, data pipelines, cron jobs, low-visibility work to maybe more core services that can extend their product or deliver more customer-facing value. They have to answer a lot of questions in terms of how do we change our process and our culture in order to embrace the velocity of serverless without losing the control that our ops team's been providing for us. >> Also, setting your team up for success. Anybody knows that if I'm working on a specific task or we get a project I'm working on, if I don't understand it and can't figure it out, I'm going to get frustrated, I'm not liking my job anymore, I hate this problem that we're working on, this initiative is dumb, I don't want to be a part of this, but Stackery allows somebody, it made me feel good about it, all the things that you can accomplish. We have a customer that's using this right now that they are moving faster than they ever thought that was possible and it's been so much fun to see their excitement and more things that they learn about that they're using it like, "Look what we just did!" They were going to pull out the whiteboard. He was like, "Let's not pull out the whiteboard, Let's just pull out Stackery." That's awesome. >> It's really fun. We opened Slack channels for some of our customers and it's so exciting to watch them get so fired up about being able to self-serve, being able to actually deliver value and hit their milestones very quickly and successfully. You were talking about what segments are driving this. One of the interesting patterns that we've seen is that it's not like the cutting-edge infrastructure team. In a lot of cases, it might be the under-served software teams in an organization. One of our first customers was an enterprise company doing retail and it was their marketing enablement team, a business enablement team that says, "Hey, our work is important. It drives revenue," is critical to our business, but it feels like a busy workload to the ops team and it's hard to get priority on this. For them to be able to self-serve to relieve some of that back pressure, but then deliver the business value, it was like an immediate measurable win for 'em. >> We often talk about the future of jobs so often, it's like oh, well. Really, you need to be a data scientist. You could go get all this training, you need to get there. It sounds like the bar is kind of low to be able to jump in here and don't necessarily need to go through certifications to start getting real results. >> I think maybe instead of saying, "The bar is low," we're opening the doors wider. We're saying that you can be successful by being able to write software and deliver business value and that you don't need to learn, also, how to configure cloud resources or write infrastructure as code templates or manage an operations lifecycle, personally, to be able to ramp up and add value to your organization. >> All right. Nate, how many people in the company, tell us what you can about funding and which expect to see from you and the team throughout the next six to 12 months. >> Absolutely. Officially, our company is now two years old, we're a team of 15 and we've raised seven and a half million dollars led by Voyager Capital and Hummer Winblad. >> Okay. >> I want to add that I had been involved in a number of startups. This team is different. We have five women on our team. >> Yeah. >> When I joined 10, there was four. We have one in ops and three women engineers >> We're up to six now. >> I know, but that's what I'm saying. I'm talking 'about when I started and that is like you don't see that. >> I wonder. There's certain shows I go to when I go to the Cloud Foundry show, when I go to Kubernetes show, when I go to, more of, the developer-centered shows, I do tend to find a higher percentage women. Are we seeing it or is that really? >> Oh, for sure. My first conference, when I started Stackery, was Serverlessconf. It was awesome. I walked into this hackathon actually scared to death because I've been to them before and was basically laughed out of there like, "What are you doing here?" I asked to be a part of a team that had to build a product and we to demo it and I went up to 'em and told 'em that I knew nothing about. I'm not an engineer, I can't write code at all, but I did understand business problems and I was trying to understand where serverless could be useful or what service would be useful. They were like, "Let's find you a team," and they had me working on the business plan while they were doing all the coding and I was like, "Let's do check-ins every single hour." Just that feeling like a welcome. You felt welcomed there and, as a women working in tech, I haven't felt welcomed at a number of conferences or a lot of hackathons, but I definitely felt welcomed there. >> It's great to hear. I saw on Twitter the other day and it was like, "Could you just imagine if for the last thousand years, we'd actually use the brainpower of the entire human race, (Nate laughs) not having kept 50% of the population from contributing." Nate, want to give you the final word. Serverless, it's growing fast, there's a lot of excitement, but what do you see as the biggest challenges. What does the industry need to work on? What's exciting you that, when we come and sit down in 2019, you're hoping we've moved the ball more? >> I think that one take-away that I want to make sure your audience has is that if you're sitting here saying, "We're not doing serverless," you're wrong. Someone in your organization is doing it. If you have this self-served model where pockets of the organization, this is the old shadow IT, where they are self-serving their configuring resources, their provisioning and it's outside of your peri-view, you're going to want to start putting practice steps in place to make sure that they're able to be successful with that mission. If they're not successful with that mission, they increase risk on your cloud strategy as a whole. They put more workload back on the operations team if that team ends up being a bottleneck for these needs. I hear a lot of IT leaders going, "I don't know if we're doing serverless today." It's like, "No, you are. I've talked to two of your engineers. I know you are." (Nate chuckles) >> Absolutely, right there. When I interviewed Andy Jassy, we had him on theCUBE last year, it was serverless becomes the underlying foundation for everything that AWS is doing. It is going to leave the audience with it is not a single product, or unnecessarily a single tool, but this is what all the cloud is doing and it's moving there pretty fast. It's something that the users can get involved with even more. All right. >> Absolutely. >> Nate and Farrah, thank you so much for joining us. Look forward to watching Stackery and seeing the updates. Make sure to check out thecube.net for all of our coverage. We'll have a big coverage of course from AWS re:Invent in Las Vegas. Lots of other shows. I'm personally always excited about what's having in the serverless and emerging trends. Thanks so much for watching theCUBE. >> Thanks.

>> Announcer: Live form the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California, it's theCUBE. Covering DevNet Create 2018. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Hi, my name is Lauren Cooney and welcome back to theCUBE. Today we're actually at down in Mountain View at DevNet Connect where we're talking to folks about Cloud, DevOps, things along those lines and really what developers are looking for in today's environment. Today I'm here with Curt. And we're going to talk a little bit about what Kurt is doing and why he's here and what's going on in your world? >> Thanks Lauren. I'm excited to be here. This is, being at a DevNet Create, where IOT is sort of a major backdrop is a change of pace for us and something that we're very excited about to get involved in. >> Great, so what, you're here for IOT, what're you really looking at within IOT? What is interesting to you? >> Well, so I work with Sonatype and our, sort of, passion and what we bring to the world of IT in general, is software supply change. We saw a gap in virtually unlimited supply of open source components that are being used to develop modern solutions and we've been helping our enterprise customers solve this problem for a while and it now occurs to us that it's just going to explode and get much bigger with IOT. >> Lauren: And all the types of devices. >> And it's all the same problems and it's the same sorts of things that we need to think about as a traditional IT, if you will. Traditional applications. >> Great. So what's an example of a customer that you would help with regards to your solution and with IOT? >> So, it would be generally a large enterprise that's looking to put some governance around what's flowing into their organization in terms of these free components: libraries, utilities, that are being packaged together and delivered. In the world of IOT, what's interesting is we also need to be very careful about what we put in there for possible exploits. And we need to be thinking about how are we going to keep them patched and updated, right? >> Lauren: Mhm. >> We have a saying at Sonatype that software ages like milk and not like wine. So it's generally just a matter of time before components start to show their age and suffer from known exploit patterns. And so we're going to need to get in front of that problem and make sure we're thinking about it as we start to develop, you know, the millions and billions of devices that are going to start to proliferate throughout our lives. >> Exactly and so how do you decide, kind of, what open source you support or what devices you support inside of that supply chain? >> Yeah, so we're focused on it. So we're looking at just the open source, right? So, it's not the proprietary stuff. It's not the commercial stuff. So we're watching like the 60 million github repositories and we're watching a million events a day trigger. And we're just looking through the forums and through the commit logs and a variety of others, you know, like a thousand plus other sources. And correlating all that data into something that's very specific and actionable, so that our customers can ultimately make an informed decision about what they're using, right? So half of the battle of managing risk is simply being aware -- >> Oh definitely. >> of what you got. The goal is not necessarily to be perfectly clean but to have really good awareness of where your weaknesses are so that you can sort of prepare or brace yourself against it or put up other mitigating controls. >> Great and so do you guys provide a dashboard, for example for a compliance team inside of a company? >> What we provide is a fully automated solution that embeds throughout your software delivery life cycle. It's designed for the modern world. It's designed to be very precise so you can automate against it and that's where traditional tools fall down. They were, sort of, built for a waterfall era, where people could take days to go through an approval process. We feel it needs to be done in a matter of minutes, so it fits in a modern pipeline. So yeah we provide that intelligence feed and then we're tied into your build and delivery process and then it does surface. It can break the pipeline and surfaces as a dashboard report where you can drill into the details and then figure out what you got to do to move forward. >> Great, and that tracks licenses and things along those lines as well? >> Yeah, licenses is sort of the original concern of open source. >> Mhm, it is. >> It's been overshadowed by more recent security concerns but licensing is a very important part too if you want to protect your IP, you need to be careful about what you're putting in these devices. >> Oh by far. Now, I was looking at your LinkedIn a little bit earlier and you have a lot of experience with DevOps and actually driving DevOps environments, tooling, things along those lines. Tell us about that. >> Yeah, so I started getting involved in DevOps sort of, when it was very first a word, if you will. I literally rebranded my team, the DevOps team and it was meant to provoke conversations. It was fairly effective at that. But I did develop a high trust team. I actually was able to implement the cultural part of that within my team. I couldn't change the whole Fortune 100 insurance company but we could demonstrate the art of the possible. It was an awesome ride. I was also inviting security to the table long before DevSecOps came on the scene, because I intuitively understand it was holistic and we needed to get everybody involved. So yeah, I'd like to think I was a little bit ahead of the curve there and had an opportunity to do some great work with some great people that continues to serve me well to this day as we as a industry mature into it. >> Yeah, I think it's really interesting. I remember going into a large customer and we were talking about, kind of, a solution for this customer. And at one end of the table was the infrastructure developers. The other end of the table was the app developers and in the middle sat the tooling guys. Right, and so it was always interesting to see how they kind of flock to their different sides and when they started working together, how, you know, a couple people would sit together and they morphed a bit. And I think that's really interesting in terms of the culture element. >> Yeah, I mean that's essentially what my team was. We were that tooling team. But we acted as the team that was bridging those relationships and bringing those teams together. The middle ware team in particular, along with our development team. Ops was a little bit further down the line. But also getting security and audit involved. Stuff like that. So yeah, it was an interesting role. And it's just neat to see that we're maturing as an industry and this is starting to become very real and the tooling now exists to make this stuff very doable, unlike five years ago. You know, there just wasn't quite the tooling there. Conceptually we knew what we wanted to do, but until the tooling shows up, it's hard to really automate it and do it the way you want. >> So, what kind of tooling is exciting you right now? What are you seeing out there, just, you know? >> So what excites me is, in addition to our own product, which is in a family of products that I would say is automated inspection. Right, and so gone are the days of late life cycle, you know, heavy lift, manual inspections and here today, now we have an ability to inspect continuously, early in the process, you know, in that CI pipeline where things are happening ten times a day. We can get that feedback to those delivery teams when it's most timely. And then so you combine that with containerization, at least in the regular application space, which gives us a converge supply change. So now my OS, my midware, everything is flowing through that pipeline, as opposed to when I was doing it. I was taking the application and ultimately deploying it to a statically provision environment. No two of which of those environments ever look quite the same. Now with containers, that problem, sort of, goes away and we have all this inspection tooling that helps us build quality in and not try to inspect it in later. >> Exactly and just, one of the things I'm looking at when I look at supply chain, the question comes to mind around Blockchain. And are you looking at Blockchain as something you might integrate into your solutions at some point in time? >> I'm personally not looking at it yet but it's hard to imagine that I won't be looking at it soon, because I can't read three articles, and one of them not be about Blockchain these days. It seems to hold a lot of promise in terms of providence and you know, basically, chain of custody type things, which are also important to this whole supply chain issue. So yeah I think it has a future. I think I've got a few things on my plate I need to get off first and then I'll have to start looking at Blockchain. >> That's great. Now, is there anything that was really wowing you from the show? I mean we've got, there's Meraki here, they're giving away something like 1.2 million dollars of equipment. You know, were you surprised to see anything or really, you know, outside of just IOT, what're you really seeing pop? >> Yeah, like I said, this is a bit of a new venue for me. I've been attending DevOps days and DevOps enterprise summit and local meetups and I've been really narrowly focused in that space in this last year. So now I'm getting more into the cloud and this is my first IOT based event. It's great to see Cisco in their second year, having such a successful event. It's really grown a lot. It's in a terrific venue. But in terms of wowing me, I think it's just access for me personally to the folks in the IOT communities, so that I can start to wrap my head around it and share our story with them, which I think is a raised some eyebrows and got some interest to think about supply chain issues in that context. >> Well I think it's absolutely necessary that you actually enable the software across the enterprise. I know that my experience in many enterprise organizations would've been a lot easier if I had had your software and the ability to do that. >> Curtis: Yeah. >> You know, I think that's great. So, you know, one of my other questions is are you partnering with DevNet? Is there a relationship there or is this just educational for you? >> No we definitely, we have a relationship with Cisco and we like to support events like this. It helps us get out. It helps us build these types of relationships. Yeah, I mean, I think this is a emerging relationship between Cisco and Sonatype and obviously IOT has such a big future. There's a lot of potential there for both parties I think. >> That's awesome. Well thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for sharing everything that you did. And we will be right back from Cisco DevNet.

[lively music] >> Man: Live from Santa Clara, in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's theCube, covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2017. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation and Pivotal. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost, John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program, actually a former colleague of mine, Cornelia Davis, Senior Director of Technology at Pivotal. Cornelia, it's great to see you. >> Thank you, thank you for having me. >> All right, so why don't you fill in our audience a little bit about your role at Pivotal, you've been involved since before the foundation in early days of everything happening. >> Yeah, and in fact I have been working with Cloud Foundry for longer than the Pivotal Company's existed. As you know, Stu, you and I used to work together at EMC in the corporate CTO office. >> Yeah, I remember a company named EMC. [Laughing] >> Yep. And I worked in the architecture group and we did architecture in emerging tech. And about five years ago, my boss, who you know, Tom McGuire, said, "You know, this platform as a service thing, I think is going to be pretty disruptive, and I want you to start looking at it. And so naturally we were EMC, VMware was incubating Cloud Foundry already, so I started playing with Cloud Foundry. So that was way back in the days of Cloud Foundry version 1.0. I'm one of those people who got to raise my hand and say, "Yes, I've been to every single Cloud Foundry Summit." [Stu Laughing] But fast forward then we had the Pivotal spin-off, and since the Pivotal spin-off, I joined the Cloud Foundry team proper, and I've been in a role working the product organization, working with James Waters, who I know you spoke to earlier today, and helping our customers kind of get their arms wrapped around what this...this isn't just the next application platform. How really, it's radically different, and how the applications, it enables a completely different style of application. And so really helping customers grok the differences about that. >> Yeah, Cornelia, I want you to help us dig into this a little bit, because when we look at any of these massive changes, a lot of times we say, you know, the technology is the easy part. It's really the change in mindset, the change in the structure, new skillsets. What are you seeing, what's different now than it was, say, three or five years ago, and what are those customer discussions that you're having? >> Yeah, and that's a great question, and I will say, and thanks for the opportunity to say this, is that the technology isn't always the easy part. [Stu laughs] So let me give you an example. So just earlier today I was on a call where somebody was talking about some user interviews that they had done with some programmers, and what they concluded at the end of that was that programmers really weren't comfortable with the "asynch" model for this particular API, and that they really wanted to just deal with the synchronous stuff. And the answer there is not that we say, "Oh, okay, we'll let you keep doing synchronous." The answer is that yes, there's a technology thing here that's hard, which is starting to think asynchronously and changing the way that we design our applications. So the technology's not always easy, but we have to go there, because in the cloud, where things are so extraordinarily distributed in a way, and the cloud is constantly changing in ways that it never did before, we have to adopt new technology models. So that's the first thing I'll say, is that we definitely, the technology parts are sometimes hard. That said, certainly over the course of the last four years, as I've worked with those customers, in the beginning, I spent a lot of time, as you know, I'm a technologist, so I spent a lot of time at the whiteboard, and sketching out architectures and talking about changes in the architecture of the platform or changes in the architecture of the application, but then I very quickly found myself talking to customers about the other things that are going to need to change around the edges. So if, for example, you want to start deploying software multiple times a day, you're going to have to change your processes, because you can't have the security office have to do a full audit of every change before it goes into production if it's going to happen three or four times a day. And if you do that, then does that imply organizational changes? So I spend a great deal of my time really talking about the whole DevOps and the people and process side of the equation as well. So last week, I was just - I'm part of the programming committee of the DevOps Enterprise Summit, and we just held that last week in London. And there we spent a lot of time talking about those elements as well. >> I spoke with somebody who was at that conference, and they said it was a little bit sobering, because there are people who have adopted a lot of these practices, and then there are people who are trying and then probably people who have not started yet. >> Cornelia: Yeah. >> As Coté calls them "the donkeys without the unicorn horns yet. >> Cornelia: Ah. >> But as you go out to the customer base, obviously part of what Pivotal is doing is really this huge Pivotal Apps push about showing people the culture. I mean, do you feel like it's a push or a pull, does the technology come first, and then the culture, does the CIO yell, or do the developers say, "We want this"? >> So we definitely get a little bit of both. I would say that I have had the great opportunity to work with a great number of these customers, so Allstate, for example, we've seen Allstate here at CF Summit year after year, and Opal spoke about Andy Zitney talking about this three or four years ago. Well, that was IT saying, "Hey," and that was more from the operations side saying, "Hey, we're going to build you a new platform," and then will they come? Now, they of course had to couple that together with, "Okay, we're not just going to build the platform, we have to put things in place to enable people to use it properly. So there's certainly- and that came a little bit more from Andy Zitney's vision. So it was a little bit more from the top, "Hey, we understand there's a better way, we're going to start making this available to you, and we'll teach you along the way." We absolutely see the opposite as well, though. Where we see the groundswell, which sometimes comes from a bunch of really smart people starting to play with the open source things. And saying, "Hey, there's got to be a better way," or the shadow IT. They're frustrated with the three-month cycles, and those things. So it isn't one answer, it's really both. It comes from both sides. >> All right. So Cornelia, you're good at understanding some of those next generation things. One of the terms that we've been talking about for the last couple of years is "cloud-native." Could you help us really kind of tease apart what that means in your customer base, and the way you approach and explain that? >> Yeah. So the term "cloud-native" is brilliant from the perspective of having a term for it that has really taken ahold. Because I would say that three years ago, I used to say to people, "Hey, cloud is not about where you're computing, it's about how you're computing." But in fact, that's not exactly accurate. And so, now that cloud-native is a term that's taken hold, I have modified my statement. And the statement that I like to make now is that, cloud, in fact, is where you compute. It could be a public cloud, it could be a private cloud, but it is more of a location. Cloud-native is the how. So I like to also characterize the cloud and cloud-native, really cloud-native applications, as two fundamental things. One is that cloud-native has reached levels of distribution that we have not seen before. We've been dealing with distributed systems and heck, in universities, there have been courses on distributed systems for 40 years. But even when I started my career 30 years ago, I started my career in aerospace doing embedded systems, and I remember working on a system where we had three processors. You know, that was as distributed as we got. And we actually mapped out on a whiteboard, okay, we're going to run this on this process and parallel with this on this process, and the point there is it was distributed, but we knew exactly what we had, and we could count on that being there. Now, it's reached a completely different, many many orders of magnitude more, in terms of the number of distributed components, as we go to microservices and those types of things. So that's one of the things that I characterize cloud and cloud-native, is highly distributed like we've never seen before. Couple that together with the other thing I just talked about with the embedded systems, that's very different from that, is constantly changing. Always changing. And whether that change is happening because of some catastrophe or that change is happening because we are doing an upgrade, a planned upgrade, it's constantly in flux. And so we have to do things differently for that. And so that, I think really, is what cloud-native is about, is the how, and like I said, highly distributed, constantly changing. >> All right. And what about the role of data, when we talk about that? Distributed architectures, storage is really tough in that kind of environment. >> Cornelia: Yep. >> And therefore, how does data play into it? >> Cornelia: Yeah, so cloud-native apps were really, as an industry starting, and here at CF Summit, people are really kind of grokking what that means. Highly distributed, small, loosely coupled components that we've put together, we'll talk about that collective in just a moment. But they're generally stateless and so on. So we understand cloud-native apps, but cloud-native involves data as well, as you said, now most of our customers that have, as you said, some of them are a little bit further along whether it's DevOps or it's cloud-native architectures, they're a little further along. And those that are quite far along, have a lot of microservices, and so you look at them, and if you look just at the microservices, you think, "Ah, beautiful. Loosely coupled, independent teams, and so on," and then you pull back the curtain, and you realize that those microservices are all tied to a shared database. There's this monolithic Oracle database or SQL server, something at the back end, that they're all tied to. And so in fact, when a team wants to make a rev on a microservice, they might still have to go through some of that planning and lockstep with lots of other teams, because, "Hey, I want to change something in the data." So the data, remember we just talked about highly distributed? Well, on the data side, it's not so highly distributed. Yes, we've got multi data centers, but we have, again, a predictable number of nodes. We know what we've got deployed. We have very rigid architectures and configurations and so on. So when we start to apply cloud-native to data, we look at the same goals we had with cloud-native applications, which is autonomy, so being able to have the different cloud-native components evolve independently, resilience, so that we have bulkheads and air gaps between them, all of those same goals, let's start to apply those to data. >> And you feel that that's not happening today yet. We're earlier in the process yet? >> It hasn't been happening. That's right. We're far far far earlier in the process. And so what we want to start to do is take that monolith that's sitting behind the curtain and we want to start breaking it apart. Now, the industry has definitely gotten to the point where they're starting to tackle this. And that was, I kind of had an epiphany about a year ago, I was working with a customer, talking to them about DevOps, talking about all these cloud-native patterns and practices, and the punch line was it was the data team of this organization. So they didn't understand the solutions, but they were understanding that they had pain points that were very reminiscent of the pain points that their colleagues in the application server teams had had, had been tackling for three or four years. So the types of technologies that we're starting to see emerge and the types of patterns we're starting to see emerge are things like unified logs, like applying Kafka to that problem of having a unified log and that be the source of record. And event-driven systems and those types of things. Every microservice gets its own database, which, yeah, we'll get some of that, but that's a kind of purist and not pragmatic way of looking at things. Caching plays a pretty big role in that, so caching in the past has been all about performance, but now when we start to look at patterns, how can we use caches to help us create those bulkheads and those air gaps so we get additional resilience in our microservices architecture? If we can put caches and there are companies like Netflix, like Twitter, who have done that, who have embedded caching deeply through their entire architecture. >> Well, do you think these technologies will come from the database or, well, let's call it the database projects and vendors themselves, or is that something, those patterns can get built into a platform, say, like Cloud Foundry? >> I think it's going to probably come more from the platform community, which is not to say that database vendors aren't thinking about that, but again, they are keeping the lights on with their existing product, so they have those quintessential business school constraints that are holding them back. >> A quick question on nomenclature. So a few years back as cloud-native was being coined, you also heard about 12-Factor apps, and that was one particular manifesto, and certainly the ops folks, I would call it at the time, said, "Well, wait a minute, that's great for your front end, but where are you storing your state?" >> Cornelia: Exactly. And so I love this conversation about >> Yep. cloud-native data. So that is what we're talking about here? >> That's exactly what we're talking about, is doing that. And so it allows us, it's interesting, because as soon as we take a model where we say, "Okay, every microservice gets its own microdatabase," then of course everybody in any large enterprise says, "Wait a minute, what about my data compliance, my data governance, how do I keep a customer that's stored in this database over here from diverging from the customer record that's stored in this other database?" I mean, we've spent decades talking about the 360 view of customers, because we've already been somewhat more fragmented than we wanted, and our knee-jerk reaction over the last several decades was, let's consolidate everything into one database. But with that comes slowness. It's the proverbial large, large ship that's hard to turn and hard to move. But what's different now is that we're starting to come up with some different patterns of doing that, what we call master data management in the past, we're applying completely different patterns now, where those individual microservice databases are really just seen as a materialized view of some source of record, and that source of record is just a time series of events, and you can always rebuild. You know, it's very interesting, because databases have had a log as a part of their architecture forever. For a very, very long time. And in fact, the log, arguably, is more important than any of the database tables that are stored on disk, because you can always recreate the database tables from the log. Now take that concept and distribute it. That's what cloud-native data is all about. To take what has been a single fabric, and now create a highly distributed, constantly changing fabric for data. And figuring out what those patterns are. >> Cornelia, I want to give you the final word. You've been to all the Cloud Foundry Summits. Either the customers or the event itself, what are some of the things that are kind of new and changing, that people that aren't at the show should know about? >> You know, I was walking down the hallway this afternoon, one thing I'll note that has changed, like I said, I was walking down the hallway with a colleague of mine, and he said, "I have 12 people from a single one of my customers here. 12 people." I spoke with somebody else who said, "Yep, another customer - not a vendor, but a customer - sent 30 people here." So we have- Cloud Foundry Summit in the beginning was a whole bunch of people who were the hobbyists, if you will. So I think we've reached that inflection point where we have the users, not just the hobbyists, but the true users that are going to leverage the platform. That's one thing that's changed. Some of the things- the other interesting thing I think that is really brilliant is the touch that the Cloud Foundry Foundation has. So I'll tell you, I submitted several papers here three years ago, when it was still the Pivotal Show. I could talk about whatever I wanted. I don't always get my papers accepted here now. And that is a good thing. That's a really good thing, so we have really democratized the community, so it truly is a community event. I think that's another thing that's happened, is kind of the democratization of Cloud Foundry, and I love that. >> Cornelia Davis, it's a pleasure to catch up with you, thank you so much for joining us. And John and I will be back with a couple of customers, actually, here at the Cloud Foundry Summit. So stay tuned and thanks for watching theCube. [lively music]

>> Voiceover: Live from San Francisco, it's The Cube covering DevNet Create 2017, brought to you by Cisco. >> Welcome back everyone. We're live here in San Francisco, The Cube's exclusive coverage of Cisco's inaugural event DevNet Create. I'm John Furrier with SiliconANGLE. My cohost Peter Burris, general manager of wikibon.com research. Next guest is Damon Edwards, co-founder of Rundeck. He's been on the crowd chats and does event DevOps and the enterprise, the content chair, co-founder of Rundeck, welcome to The Cube. >> Thank you. >> Great to meet you. >> First and we've >> Good to be here. been in line chatting away. Quick though from you, Cisco getting into DevOps, the conversation's pretty straight forward. We think it's awesome that they're doing this. >> Damon: Yeah. >> Good direction, right in line with DevOps, things looking good, middle of the fairway. What do you do next? >> Damon: Yeah, I mean ... >> Where does Cisco take the ball from here and take it home? >> You know, I think it's just more of the same. I think that you can't underestimate the split that's happened in the DevOps have and have nots, that sounds kind of odd, but a lot that we talk about are the unicorns, the high flying special built organizations that really grew up with this in the last five to 10 years. I think where Cisco really plays is in the other 99% of commerce of the world, which is the core classic enterprises. DevOps really hasn't made that deep of a dent yet into that, I guess we call it dark IT, right? The rest of the world the people have to deal with 30 years of, in some places, different technology, skills, acquisitions, mismatches, all the legacy, all the bureaucracy of large organizations, and Cisco has a path into that and a voice of authority into that. So happy to see they're putting such emphasis on these DevOps and Agile ideas and help to drive them into that. >> And they got the app dynamics things going down too, that big acquisition. Their slogan is Where Apps Meet Infrastructure. We always just talk about infrastructure as code. They're talking about programmable networking, which is the same thing. We want more programmable. >> Damon: Right. So how do they make that transition to this new operational model? I mean, networks used to be very fragile, set in stone. >> Damon: Yeah. Someone used to joke, "Hey, they're called NoOps," because they would say no to everything from a developer standpoint. >> Damon: Sure. >> How do they transition from NoOps to a new operational model that's agile and adding value? >> The bigger issue here is that Ops is getting squeezed, right, so it's an existential crisis for them. The reason why they were always the no folks is because they're always spending their time protecting that capacity because they're overrun, they're always outnumbered, first of all, then they're being overrun with all these tickets of new stuff coming in plus incidents happening in the middle, the capacity has always been an issue. Now with this new DevOps, and really digital transformation inspired pressure, it's go, go, go faster, open things up. At the same time the same business folks are saying from the other direction lock things down, don't be the next hack. Don't be the next breach. Don't be the next major outage, right? >> John: It's really a lot of pressure It's a pressure cooker. >> Right. >> So they're squeezed. So the biggest with crisis, how do we relieve that, how do we relieve that pressure? And the key technique is to be able to actually allow other people to participate in what traditionally was only operations tasks. If you allow me to go one step ... >> John: Democratization of operations in a way. >> It is, and what they're doing, you see the organizations that really nailed this, they're dividing up the idea of an operations procedure. It used to be everything was in operations. You defined it, you ran it, and you have all security and management audit control over it. In these new ways what they're doing is they're breaking it up into three pieces to say the ability to define these automated procedures, the ability to execute them, and the ability to have that management control and oversight, let's make those in three discrete parts and let's move that to where the labor capacity makes the most sense. By doing that, operations can free up those bottlenecks, start to decouple more, allow the rest of the organization to move a lot quicker and not be in that horrible position of being squeezed to death and having to tell everybody no. >> There's a number of reasons why it's happening. Sorry. One of the key ones is that, and it brings us back to the Cisco conversation we're asking about this, is that is used to be that operations was tied to a particular asset. The server more often than not. And so a single individual could pool all those things together because a single individual, or single group, had control over virtually all the resources >> Damon: Right. >> that were a part of that. Now we're talking about applications that are inherently distributed, and so we can't look at the process of operations in the same way. This comes back to Cisco. Does the world need to think more discreetly about these new highly distributed, deeply distributed, applications differently, and is that going to catalyze the diffusion of more of these high quality DevOps principals? What do you think? >> Yeah, it has to. If you look at the business driver, which is this digital transformation, a lot of people scoff at because it's like wait, is this 1999? You need a website? What are we talking about, right? But you realize what it is is saying all these disparate systems we used to have, right. I could get my cable bill, but it's just online, it's just a PDF of what they send to the printers, right. But now on it, everything I could do when I call up the customer service agent, I want to do it through my phone or I want to do it on my laptop, and that means all those formerly distinct systems that lived in different windows on a customer service agents desktop and after the little things to check the router status blew up, well I'll just talk past it, right. But now it's really going to matter in this digital world. The business is driving that integration, so where things don't live in isolation anymore, and because of that the complexity and this distributed nature of these services is rising. >> John: Yeah. >> And when that that happens, that makes the operations inherently more difficult and just contributes to that squeeze even more and we got to find a way to relieve that. >> Great point and great analysis. That just picked off what we were talking about on our intro package of the redefinition of what a full stacked developer is. >> Damon: Yeah. >> Now full stack implies you're talking about a distributed application model where there's no isolation anymore so you could almost argue that that's going to be obsolete. It's a full horizontal developer. >> Well logic used to be full stack, but how they connect will be different. >> Which just brings up the notion of, okay, things were in isolation >> Right. >> built to the database, now I go down the network, now a whole new developer category potentially is emerging. Do you feel the same way? >> Damon: Yeah. >> I mean, we're speculating. We don't actually know. >> Sure. I mean, if you are Netflix, who prides itself on it's ability to go out, pay top of market, which means they are the top of market, and attract the best talent, only one can win that game. For everybody else in the world, this idea of we're going to have these polyglot, super human, I-know-everything engineers, it's never going to happen. We have to find a way to use our systems and our processes to allow that kind of integration to happen, and allow those people to define the control procedures and policies for the things that they know about, and then allow that all to integrate to where then we can have other folks operate it and run it. Again, that idea of moving those part around to where we can best take advantage of the labor, otherwise you're just ... You're never going to find it. Go to any conference, NASA DevOps Conference, and ask people how many LinkedIn spam messages do you get a day because the word DevOps is in your profile? >> Yeah. >> Everybody just laughs because it's dozens. You're never going to have that idea so you have to build the systems to recreate that full stack capability. >> And have people that have access to be one, rather than super human that becomes democratized at that level. >> Damon: Yeah. >> It's interesting. One of the things that you guys did at the DevOps Enterprise Summit, I know you were in the content chair. >> Damon: Sure. >> I made a note here for my ... Make sure I get this question to you, was I like this thing you guys touched upon. Is DevOps best left to grow organically or is there a growing need slash desire for an agile manifesto? (laughs) The top down, do the manifesto, or organic ... Thoughts? >> Yeah, I'd say no, because what DevOps is is a series of problem state- It's an umbrella over a bunch of problem statements and a bunch of solutions that keeps evolving. This is why the Devs conferences are so interesting because it's practitioners talking about what's worked for them. I feel like at the highest level, if you really need to have a definition, go ahead and read the Phoenix project or the DevOps handbook. They've done a great job of collating all of that, but at the end of the day it's not one thing. It's not a single practice. There's no single thing you can do to say I'm going to transform a major global financial services company into a fast, nimble operation. There is no one thing. It's a series of things that you have to try over and over again. Look at DevOps as a movement where you can learn from practitioners, apply it to your own organization, see what happens, report back, try some new stuff, and so on and so forth. >> So you could basically have a manifesto, but it's really just more of marching orders. Organically, it has to form on its own. That's basically the same. >> I think there already is. >> You could say hey we have a manifesto, but it's not like this is the playbook. You can get >> Damon: There is >> the handbook to learn. >> no playbook. >> Exactly. Okay, cool. Well, appreciate the insight. Let's talk about your business. What do you guys do? >> Damon: Sure. >> What are some of the things that Rundeck's doing that you're the co-founder of? Share a little bit about the company. >> Yeah, Rundeck is at the what is it, it's an orchestration and scheduling platform and it's used by operations organizations. Generally from large startups, but also large DevBox unicorns, but also a lot of large enterprises. What they're using it for is for defining and improving their operations procedures. What happens after deployment? Where do we define all the procedures to manage all these disparate systems, all these islands of automation. Chef and Puppet was the hottest thing around three years ago and now it's Docker and Kubernetes and everything else, and now we still have our old power shelf stuff, our late logic over there, some OpSquare stuff over there, so what are we going to do? We need a way to define the procedures, expand all those and allow people to participate in that operations world so they can relieve that crunch. We see a lot for automating the creative standard operating procedures like classic Runbook automation, with a next generation twist, we'll say, but we also see a lot of self service operations, meaning that let's let other people participate. Let's let developers define these procedures as Rundeck jobs, and then let operations vet them ... >> That's where you're talking about the operational being relieved a bit. >> Yeah, you have to. You can't just say there's one little group here that's going to deploy and run all of these things in this world. We have to let other people participate in that. Not just for deployment, which is big in the DevOps world, but for what happens after deployment that nobody wants to talk about. All the escalations, all the interruptions, all those problems, Rundeck really plays in that area help people to get that under control. >> Damon, thanks so much for sharing your insight. Congratulations on your startup and great to meet you in person. >> Yeah. >> We've had great chats in our crowd chat. You guys have been awesome with Gene Kim and the community that you're involved with with DevOps for the Enterprise Summit, practitioners sharing. That's a great ethos >> Damon: It's a pretty >> That really aligns >> awesome bet, yeah. >> with what's going on in the industry. Congratulations. More Cube coverage here exclusive of Cisco's inaugural event called DevNet Create, an extension of their DevNet core classic network and developer systems at Cisco. This is an open source one. This is out in the community. Not all Cisco, all part of the community. And of course we're bringing it to you with live coverage. I'm John for Peter Burris. Stay with us. (upbeat music) >> Hi. I'm April Mitchell, and I'm the senior director ...