(upbeat music) >> Welcome back, everyone. It's theCUBE's coverage here in Las Vegas. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE with re:MARS. Amazon re:MARS stands for machine learning, automation, robotics, and space. Lot of great content, accomplishment. AI meets meets robotics and space, industrial IoT, all things data. And we've got two great guests here to unpack the AI side of it. Manoj Suvarna, Managing Director at AI Ecosystem at Deloitte and Arte Merritt, Conversational AI Lead at AWS. Manoj, it's great to see you CUBE alumni. Art, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. >> So AI's the big theme. Actually, the big disconnect in the industry has been the industrial OT versus IT, and that's happening. Now you've got space and robotics meets what we know is machine learning and AI which we've been covering. This is the confluence of the new IoT market. >> It absolutely is. >> What's your opinion on that? >> Yeah, so actually it's taking IoT beyond the art of possible. One area that we have been working very closely with AWS. We're strategic alliance with them. And for the past six years, we have been investing a lot in transformations. Transformation as it relate to the cloud, transformation as it relate to data modernization. The new edge is essentially on AI and machine learning. And just this week, we announced a new solution which is more focused around enhancing contact center intelligence. So think about the edge of the contact center, where we all have experiences around dealing with customer service and how to really take that to the next level, challenges that clients are facing in every part of that business. So clearly. >> Well, Conversational AI is a good topic. Talk about the relationship with Deloitte and Amazon for a second around AI because you guys have some great projects going on right now. That's well ahead of the curve on solving the scale problem 'cause there's a scale and problem, practical problem and then scale. What's the relationship with Amazon and Deloitte? >> We have a great alliance and relationship. Deloitte brings that expertise to help folks build high quality, highly effective conversational AI and enterprises are implementing these solutions to really try to improve the overall customer experience. So they want to help agents improve productivity, gain insights into the reasons why folks are calling but it's really to provide that better user experience being available 24/7 on channels users prefer to interact. And the solutions that Deloitte is building are highly advanced, super exciting. Like when we show demos of them to potential customers, the eyes light up and they want those solutions. >> John: Give an example when their eyes light up. What are you showing there? >> One solution, it's called multimodal interfaces. So what this is, is when you're call into like a voice IVR, Deloitte's solution will send the folks say a mobile app or a website. So the person can interact with both the phone touching on the screen and the voice and it's all kept in sync. So imagine you call the doctor's office or say I was calling a airline and I want to change my flight or sorry, change the seat. If they were to say, seat 20D is available. Well, I don't know what that means, but if you see the map while you're talking, you can say, oh, 20D is the aisle. I'm going to select that. So Deloitte's doing those kind of experiences. It's incredible. >> Manoj, this is where the magic comes into play when you bring data together and you have integration like this. Asynchronously or synchronously, it's all coming together. You have different platforms, phone, voice, silo databases potentially, the old way. Now, the new ways integrating. What makes it all work? What's the key to success? >> Yeah, it's certainly not a trivial feat. Bringing together all of these ecosystems of relationships, technologies all put together. We cannot do it alone. This is where we partner with AWS with some of our other partners like Salesforce and OneReach and really trying to bring a symphony of some of these solutions to bear. When you think about, going back to the example of contact center, the challenges that the pandemic posed in the last couple of years was the fact that who's a humongous rise in volume of number of calls. You can imagine people calling in asking for all kinds of different things, whether it's airlines whether it is doctor's office and retail. And then couple with that is the fact that there's the labor shortage. And how do you train agents to get them to be productive enough to be able to address hundreds or thousands of these calls? And so that's where we have been starting to, we have invested in those solutions bringing those technologies together to address real client problems, not just slideware but actual production environments. And that's where we launched this solution called TrueServe as of this week, which is really a multimodal solution that is built with preconceived notions of technologies and libraries where we can then be industry agnostic and be able to deliver those experiences to our clients based on whatever vertical or industry they're in. >> Take me through the client's engagement here because I can imagine they want to get a practical solution. They're going to want to have it up and running, not like a just a chatbot, but like they completely integrated system. What's the challenge and what's the outcome first set of milestones that you see that they do first? Do they just get the data together? Are they deploying a software solution? What's the use cases? >> There's a couple different use cases. We see there's the self-service component that we're talking about with the chatbots or voice IVR solutions. There's also use cases for helping the agents, so real-time agent assist. So you call into a contact center, it's transcribed in real time, run through some sort of knowledge base to give the agents possible answers to help the user out, tying in, say the Salesforce data, CRM data, to know more about the user. Like if I was to call the airline, it's going to say, "Are you calling about your flight to San Francisco tomorrow?" It knows who I am. It leverages that stuff. And then the key piece is the analytics knowing why folks are calling, not just your metrics around, length of calls or deflections, but what were the reasons people were calling in because you can use that data to improve your underlying products or services. These are the things that enterprise are looking for and this is where someone like Deloitte comes in, brings that expertise, speeds up the time to market and really helps the customers. >> Manoj, what was the solution you mentioned that you guys announced? >> Yeah, so this is called Deloitte TrueServe. And essentially, it's a combination of multiple different solutions combinations from AWS, from Salesforce, from OneReach. All put together with our joint engineering and really delivering that capability. Enhancing on that is the analytics component, which is really critical, especially because when you think about the average contact center, less than 10% of the data gets analyzed today, and how do you then extract value out of that data and be able to deliver business outcomes. >> I was just talking to some of the other day about Zoom. Everyone records their zoom meetings, and no one watches them. I mean, who's going to wade through that. Call center is even more high volume. We're talking about massive data. And so will you guys automate that? Do you go through every single piece of data, every call and bring it down? Is that how it works? >> Go ahead. >> There's just some of the things you can do. Analyze the calls for common themes, like figuring out like topic modeling, what are the reasons people are calling in. Summarizing that stuff so you can see what those underlying issues are. And so that could be, like I was mentioning, improving the product or service. It could also be for helping train the agents. So here's how to answer that question. And it could even be reinforcing positive experiences maybe an agent had a particular great call and that could be a reference for other folks. >> Yeah, and also during the conversation, when you think about within 60 to 90 seconds, how do you identify the intonation, the sentiments of the client customer calling in and be able to respond in real time for the challenges that they might be facing and the ability to authenticate the customer at the same time be able to respond to them. I think that is the advancements that we are seeing in the market. >> I think also your point about the data having residual values also excellent because this is a long tail of value in this data, like for predictions and stuff. So NASA was just on before you guys came on, talking about the Artemis project and all the missions and they have to run massive amounts of simulations. And this is where I've kind of seen the dots connect here. You can run with AI, run all the heavy lifting without human touching it to get that first ingestion or analysis, and then iterating on the data based upon what else happens. >> Manoj: Absolutely. >> This is now the new normal, right? Is this? >> It is. And it's transverse towards across multiple domains. So the example we gave you was around Conversational AI. We're now looking at that for doing predictive analytics. Those are some examples that we are doing jointly with AWS SageMaker. We are working on things like computer vision with some of the capabilities and what computer vision has to offer. And so when you think about the continuum of possibilities of what we can bring together from a tools, technology, services perspective, really the sky is the limit in terms of delivering these real experiences to our clients. >> So take me through a customer. Pretending I'm a customer, I get it. I got to do this. It's a competitive advantage. What are the outcomes that they are envisioning? What are some of the patterns you're seeing with customers? What outcomes are they expecting and what kind of high level upside you see them envisioning coming out of the data? >> So when you think about the CxOs today and the board, a lot of them are thinking about, okay, how do you build more efficiency in those system? How do you enable a technology or solution for them to not only increase their top line but as well as their bottom line? How do you enhance the customer experience, which in this case is spot on because when you think about, when customers go repeat to a vendor, it's based on quality, it's based on price. Customer experience is now topping that where your first experience, whether it's through a chat or a virtual assistant or a phone call is going to determine the longevity of that customer with you as a vendor. And so clearly, when you think about how clients are becoming AI fuel, this is where we are bringing in new technologies, new solutions to really push the art to the limit and the art of possible. >> You got a playbook too to do this? >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We have done that. And in fact, we are now taking that to the next level up. So something that I've mentioned about this before, which is how do you trust an AI system as it's building up. >> Hold on, I need to plug in. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> I put this here for a reason to remind me. No, but also trust is a big thing. Just put that trustworthy. This is an AI ethics question. >> Arte: It's a big. >> Let's get into it. This is huge. Data's data. Data can be biased from coming in >> Part of it, there are concerns you have to look at the bias in the data. It's also how you communicate through these automated channels, being empathetic, building trust with the customer, being concise in the answers and being accessible to all sorts of different folks and how they might communicate. So it's definitely a big area. >> I mean, you think about just normal life. We all lived situations where we got a text message from a friend or someone close to us where, what the hell, what are you saying? And they had no contextual bad feelings about it or, well, there's misunderstandings 'cause the context isn't there 'cause you're rapid fire them on the subway. I'm riding my bike. I stop and text, okay, I'm okay. Church response could mean I'm busy or I'm angry. Like this is now what you said about empathy. This is now a new dynamic in here. >> Oh, the empathy is huge, especially if you're say a financial institution or building that trust with folks and being empathetic. If someone's reaching out to a contact center, there's a good chance they're upset about something. So you have to take that. >> John: Calm them down first. >> Yeah, and not being like false like platitude kind of things, like really being empathetic, being inclusive in the language. Those are things that you have conversation designers and linguistics folks that really look into that. That's why having domain expertise from folks like Deloitte come in to help with that. 'Cause maybe if you're just building the chat on your own, you might not think of those things. But the folks with the domain expertise will say like, Hey, this is how you script it. It's the power of words, getting that message across clearly. >> The linguistics matter? >> Yeah, yeah. >> It does. >> By vertical too, I mean, you could pick any the tribe, whatever orientation and age, demographics, genders. >> All of those things that we take for granted as a human. When you think about trust, when you think about bias, when you think about ethics, it just gets amplified. Because now you're dealing with millions and millions of data points that may or may not be the right direction in terms of somebody's calling in depending on what age group they're in. Some questions might not be relevant for that age group. Now a human can determine that, but a bot cannot. And so how do you make sure that when you look at this data coming in, how do you build models that are ethically aware of the contextual algorithms and the alignment with it and also enabling that experience to be much enhanced than taking it backwards, and that's really. >> I can imagine it getting better with as people get scaled up a bit 'cause then you're going to have to start having AI to watch the AI at some point, as they say. Where are we in the progress in the industry right now? Because I know there's been a lot of news stories around, ethics and AI and bias and it's a moving train actually, but still problems are going to be solved. Are we at the tipping point yet? Are we still walking in before we crawl or crawling before we walk? I should say, I mean, where are we? >> I think we are in between a crawling or walk phase. And the reason for that is because it varies depending on whether you're regulated industry or unregulated. In the regulated industry, there are compliance regulations requirements, whether it's government whether it's banking, financial institutions where they have to meet Sarbanes-Oxley and all kinds of compliance requirements, whereas an unregulated industry like retail and consumer, it is anybody's gain. And so the reality of it is that there is more of an awareness now. And that's one of the reasons why we've been promoting this jointly with AWS. We have a framework that we have established where there are multiple pillars of trust, bias, privacy, and security that companies and organizations need to think about. Our data scientists, ML engineers need to be familiar with it, but because while they're super great in terms of model building and development, when it comes to the business, when it comes to the client or a customer, it is super important for them to trust this platform, this algorithm. And that is where we are trying to build that momentum, bring that awareness. One of my colleagues has written this book "Trustworthy AI". We're trying to take the message out to the market to say, there is a framework. We can help you get there. And certainly that's what we are doing. >> Just call Deloitte up and you're going to take care of them. >> Manoj: Yeah. >> On the Amazon side, Amazon Web Services. I always interview Swami every year at re:Invent and he always get the updates. He's been bullish on this for a long time on this Conversational AI. What's the update on the AWS side? Where are you guys at? What's the current trends that you're riding? What wave are you riding right now? >> So some of the trends we see in customer interest, there's a couple of things. One is the multimodal interfaces we we're just chatting about where the voice IVA is synced with like a web or mobile experience, so you take that full advantage of the device. The other is adding additional AI into the Conversational AI. So one example is a customer that included intelligent document processing as part of the chatbot. So instead of typing your name and address, take a photo of your driver's license. It was an insurance onboarding chatbot, so you could take a photo of your existing insurance policy. It'll extract that information to build the new insurance policy. So folks get excited about that. And the third area we see interest is what's called multi-bot orchestration. And this is where you can have one main chatbot. Marshall user across different sub-chatbots based on the use case persona or even language. So those things get people really excited and then AWS is launching all sorts of new features. I don't know which one is coming out. >> I know something's coming out tomorrow. He's right at corner. He's big smile on his face. He wouldn't tell me. It's good. >> We have for folks like the closer alliance relationships, we we're able to get previews. So there a preview of all the new stuff. And I don't know what I could, it's pretty exciting stuff. >> You get in trouble if you spill the beans here. Don't, be careful. I'll watch you. We'll talk off camera. All exciting stuff. >> Yeah, yeah. I think the orchestrator bot is interesting. Having the ability to orchestrate across different contextual datasets is interesting. >> One of the areas where it's particularly interesting is in financial services. Imagine a bank could have consumer accounts, merchant accounts, investment banking accounts. So if you were to chat with the chatbot and say I want to open account, well, which account do you mean? And so it's able to figure out that context to navigate folks to those sub-chatbots behind the scenes. And so it's pretty interesting style. >> Awesome. Manoj while we're here, take a minute to quickly give a plug for Deloitte. What your program's about? What customers should expect if they work with you guys on this project? Give a quick commercial for Deloitte. >> Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, Deloitte has been continuing to lead the AI field organization effort across our client base. If you think about all the Fortune 100, Fortune 500, Fortune 2000 clients, we certainly have them where they are in advanced stages of multiple deployments for AI. And we look at it all the way from strategy to implementation to operational models. So clients don't have to do it alone. And we are continuing to build our ecosystem of relationships, partnerships like the alliances that we have with AWS, building the ecosystem of relationships with other emerging startups, to your point about how do you continue to innovate and bring those technologies to your clients in a trustworthy environment so that we can deliver it in production scale. That is essentially what we're driving. >> Well, Arte, there's a great conversation and the AI will take over from here as we end the segment. I see a a bot coming on theCUBE later and there might be CUBE be replaced with robots. >> Right, right, right, exactly. >> I'm John Furrier, calling from Palo Alto. >> Someday, CUBE bot. >> You can just say, Alexa do my demo for me or whatever it is. >> Or digital twin for John. >> We're going to have a robot on earlier do a CUBE interview and that's Dave Vellante. He'd just pipe his voice in and be fun. Well, thanks for coming on, great conversation. >> Thank you. Thanks for having us. >> CUBE coverage here at re:MARS in Las Vegas. Back to the event circle. We're back in the line. Got re:Inforce and don't forget re:Invent at the end of the year. CUBE coverage of this exciting show here. Machine learning, automation, robotics, space. That's MARS, it's re:MARS. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)

>>from around the globe. It's >>The Cube with digital coverage of IBM think 2021 brought to you by IBM Well hi everybody john Wallace here on the cube. Thanks for joining us here. As we continue our initiative of IBM think a chance to look at what IBM thinks in terms of infrastructure, we're talking to you about a hybrid cloud kind of the new trend. The thought that's going to the hybrid cloud, what's the future look like and help us cover that waterfront. A couple of experts from Deloitte Terry Cobb, the IBM Alliance lead at Deloitte Terry. Thank you for joining us. We look forward to this time together. >>Thank you so much for having me. You >>bet. And also introduced Dave Knight quickly, your colleague who is a senior solution architect and IBM Alliance cloud leader at Deloitte. Dave good to see you as well. Thanks for being with us. >>Thanks for having me. >>Alright, so maybe it's just for the two of you set the table for our viewers here in terms of your specific roles of delight. I talked about IBM and your connections there, but in terms of what you're doing there, how you work together and ultimately what kind of service you're trying to provide your clients terry? Why don't you jump on that first? >>Sure. So I've been with Deloitte for 16 years, I believe, maybe a little longer and focusing on the IBM like our strategic partnership. Um and so what that means is I work day in day out with our practitioners to identify and understand where our clients what are some of the critical business needs. And so I work with are leaders and and collaborate with IBM and we we look for ways to solve really unique critical business issues. Um and so part of my my background, so I've come from, you know, at my 30 year background and strategy management consulting. So it's really exciting. I get to use my uh consulting skills, my strategy skills to, you know, look at where we are in the market, what's what's happening in the market because that's a great example. There was a huge impact on how businesses, you know, work, how they work differently and how they handle their workforce. So it was a very interesting time. And and so bringing these two great firms together to solve some of these critical business issues. As for me, it's, you know, it's it's critical and it has a positive impact on, you know, for our clients. >>All right, dave from your side of the fence. >>Yeah. So um I sit in a similar place within the firm. I actually joined the last century. I've been with the firm for 21 years, so uh in a variety of roles, but all with with sort of a technical last solution architecture um, slant. Right, So, so just like Terry mentioned in the alliance function, we try to find opportunities to work together specifically between IBM and the Deloitte, you know, go to market services, uh my role as a solution architect and then as the cloud lead is to make sure that we've got the right mix of technology that we solve the client's problems uh efficiently and cost effectively. Uh and then, you know, sort of translate those, those business problems into technical solutions and then those technical solutions back into business solutions. So the business sees the value and its valuable not only for Deloitte from the services perspective, but also for IBM. >>He just almost just blew me away when you said you've been there since the last century. I haven't heard it quite put that way. And it's really that was really good, uh >>1999, to be fair, but still, it >>certainly implies a lot of experience. That's for sure. That's it. But that was really, that was a unique twist. So, kudos to you, let's talk about your client's first a little bit. So you talk about problems and we're talking about obviously technology and deployments and what capabilities are. So today, right. You've got on primary got off Premier, you've got private cloud, you've got public cloud, you've got edge technologies, you've got this really just this maelstrom basically of opportunity, but also confusion a little bit right? Um with different kinds of capabilities, different kinds of challenges. So Dave if you would, you know, let's look at it from the macro level then, in terms of how you start dissecting these kinds of decisions that the, the C T O. S and with your within your client list have to make and and how you help them chart their course in terms of determining priorities and what the right steps are for them to take. >>Okay. So I mean you sort of summarized my points actually quite nicely. We we help customers find their path, what's there, right approach to their digital transformation journey. Um We do have assets that help them, you know identify workloads where they might might run the best. Um We certainly have approaches and experience in the market having done this for for years. Uh you know it's the number one cloud professional services firm globally. We we we've garnered a lot of experience working with customers again helping among this journey. Um What we've learned is that one size does not fit all. Um Clearly cloud and more specifically public cloud is a game changer. It's here to stay, but it's not necessarily the right answer for every workload for every customer even. Um And so what we're starting to see is is a shift towards hybrid discussions and hybrid architecture discussions. Um and just as a quick, very simple example, um you wouldn't go purchase a mainframe to be a web server, right, That's that's significant overkill. And similarly, um the cloud is great for its, you know, capacity and and all the things that come with an economics, that sort of thing, but it's not necessarily the best platform for a credit card clearing house. Right. The transactional volume is simply too great. Right? So, um and that sort of very simplified example. Hybrid we think is the answer. And we're seeing lots of customers now that they've shifted a lot of their workloads to cloud that our cloud suitable. Um starting to ask us the more difficult questions, right, the core of my business, it's a high risk move. Can you help me sort this out? And in many cases the answer is don't move it, it's too extended at the edge. It's to augment it with cloud technologies such as AI and and enhance your service rather than replace it or move it to a different location. >>So you recently published a report that you did the mainframe market poll survey where you're looking at really, I guess migration plans or an appetite right to make these evolutions to, to to explore this hybrid cloud model that you've already detailed for us. Um, give me an idea if you would and our our viewers an idea a little bit about some of the key summaries of that in terms of what the appetite is for that, what the desires are, you know, are we ready to cut the court on the mainframe and let it go? Is there too much involved? We want to hang on. Um, you know, what's kind of, what's the mood out there right now? >>Yes, so we, we commissioned the double blind survey, we had a belief that we really wanted to explore it further, um, and that belief was, you know, a little tongue in cheek. The death of the mainframe is greatly over exaggerated. Um, and so again, this double blind survey, we commissioned it and, and we, we found a lot of interesting results. First and foremost, um, the mainframe for many customers is not going away. The vast majority of our survey respondents uh, indicated that was the case. Um, there was a couple of other interesting to, that's that, that we, we found in the results as well. Um uh, the first one is this isn't just a technology issue um It's a human capital um issue as well with the aging workforce. Um You know, mainframe not being quite as sexy in the age of java but coming back to IBM investments in the platform. Um And then another key point that we we found was security continues to be a key concern of business I. T. Uh and business, you know, owners. Um and that mainframe is seen as is the pillar of security sort of, they hold it up as sort of the example of security in the industry. Um Another interesting too that we found was that Um you know, one specific question asked about future growth plans and um over just under 60%. So over half answered three questions um that most people would think are at odds with each other and that is you know, are you expanding your mainframe? Over 60 said Yes. Um, are you advancing into cloud? Just under 60 said yes. And then there was a hybrid question which over half said they were going to look at hybrid. So that sort of marriage of mainframe and cloud in a hybrid way was an interesting thing that we weren't exactly expecting, but still quite interesting to explore. >>So >>when >>you hear this right about these, I mean not conflicting, but certainly, you know, interesting of uh survey findings, um, what do you make of that? What what are you, how are you reading those tea leaves a little bit about what people are saying about not ready to leave, but yet they're interested. And and so the concerns that they've brought up about security, about the asian workforce, I mean, you know, a lot of challenging uh, positions here, they have to be considered for your clients. >>You know, for me it was very interesting and and I believe, you know, one of the reasons we launched the survey was really to find out what is really going on with our clients because we're hearing a lot of, you know, there's a lot of news around clients migrating all their all their applications, >>I say all >>to the cloud and but yet we were spending a lot of time with clients that had mainframes and we were solving some of their mainframe issues and so we we were a little confused, so that was part of the impetus from really getting out and enjoying market sensing and figure out what our clients really doing. And we didn't target, you know, the mainframe, you know, clients, we targeted main from clients but we didn't target mainframe users. We were looking at really the business users of the mainframe and the executives that have mainframes. And so we were, it was surprising to to get the information back and hear how important the mainframe, so us. Uh and and then when you start digging a bit deeper into, you know, what does cloud really mean? Your hybrid cloud comes to the surface and then you have people that have different meanings of hybrid cloud. So, really understanding what is hybrid cloud really mean and what does it mean for your business? And that's what we're solving today. It's like how do we how do we go to market around hybrid cloud and what benefits does it have work for our clients? >>Yeah, so, Dave yeah, to touch up on that, to follow up, I mean, so, how are you a Deloitte then taking these results and and kind of ingesting them and distilling them and deciding. All right, this is how we're going to define hybrid cloud perhaps. I mean, I don't know if that if that's a bold assumption, but I think you're probably trying to draw some parameters around it, Right? This is how our clients see it. So this is how we're gonna talk about it and then this is how we're going to take them on that journey. How instructive was this survey for that and actually what are you doing with it in terms of shaping your practice? >>Yeah, so it's a great question and it is driving um you know, not the survey by itself, but a lot of the market trends and including the surveys is driving um some reevaluation and refocusing quite frankly on on hybrid cloud um as an offering within the firm. Right? We we define hybrid cloud generally is, you know, seamless integration of data and applications across on and off premise. And with with the wave of five G that's coming at us, increasingly we're looking at architecture is that include edge uh into that that hybrid definition? Um you know, I've said this to a lot of folks uh for me, mainframe was the original cloud. So it's only natural that it should be part of solutions now. And what I mean by that is when it was released it was virtualized, it was virtually unlimited. Somebody else managed it for you. You you you you only paid for what you use. Those are all characteristics of the cloud as we know it today, but those were implemented in the 70s, the mainframe um and so, capturing those characteristics and newer technologies and then integrating those into architectures. I think it's going to be sort of the next wave of what we see in the industry and, and Deloitte is certainly positioning to help our customers on that journey. And >>before we sign off, I do want to touch on security issue again because you did bring it up a little bit earlier, but let's just talk about it holistically here, depending upon where you are, doesn't matter right edge on off private public. I mean security's gonna be first and foremost. And so what are you suggesting or what are you saying to your clients? You know, terry and dave on this. In terms of their security concerns, the awareness they have to have in that and the allocation of resources to make sure that, you know, whatever solutions they deploy, their their credible, they have integrity and and they're sustainable. So let's hit on security before we head out terry. If you don't mind jumping >>first, I'd like to address security. But even stepping back a little bit. So as clients for looking at moving applications to the cloud for hybrid cloud, it's really about, you know, making sure you have a strategy unless you address some of the underlying data infrastructure, you're gonna end up with you disparate data everywhere and you're not going to be able to, you're gonna have data silo issues, you're gonna have security issues. You also have complex architectural issues. So, you know, some of the work that we're doing with IBM and internally with our firm is trying to help clients understand like you take a step back and really evaluate their business requirements and making sure that they and your dave can you found on this. But it's really making sure they have the right strategy in place to address, you know, their data, where the data sets, how to innovate some of these applications and of course security, security is a huge concern. We see that from all of our clients and needs to be on prem and secure. Mhm. >>Just a final word. >>Yeah. Thanks. Just to add on to that. Right. So security is absolutely critical. As terry mentioned. Having a strategy is absolutely critical and having security be integral to that strategy is equally critical. Um As you said, it's everywhere, cloud on prem on the edge. I would even go so far as to say, you know, in your personal life and your professional life, it should be as pervasive as we like to think it is. I think the reality is that maybe isn't but that's part of the job of architects like me, is to make sure that it gets built in at its core. It's not an afterthought, it's integral. I've got some fantastic technologies around that, specifically in the Z space. Um you don't wanna get too too wonky here, but you know, Phipps 1 40 dash to level four encryption, which is unique in the market. Um, you know, data privacy, passports, pervasive encryption, all these things. Um, interestingly enough live in the mainframe but extended ideas cloud and um from my perspective, I think it's one of the unique uh, connections intersections where mainframe could actually help drive the growth of cloud um, in that hybrid model and even getting into future looking things like home, um, or fixed encryption, there's a raft of technologies coming out of IBM um, that help us ensure we have, you know, secure transactions, secure hybrid architectures as you put our security everywhere. >>Well, you can get a little wonky. That's okay. David terry, thank you for the time today. We certainly appreciate it. And thanks for shining light on your work at Deloitte and of course, that partnership you have. It's working so well with IBM. Thank you both. >>Thanks for having us. >>All right. We've been talking about hybrid cloud, the future of a hybrid cloud and the mainframe and it ain't dead yet. All right. John Wallace. Thanks for joining us here on the cube.

>> Announcer: From around the globe. It's theCube with digital coverage of AWS re:Invent 2020 special coverage sponsored by AWS Worldwide Public Sector. >> Hi, and welcome to theCube Virtual in our coverage of AWS re:Invent. I'm your host Rebecca Knight. Today we are joined by Shawn Snyder. She is the managing director at Deloitte and Cloud Migration market leader. Thanks for coming on the show Shawn. >> Thank you, Rebecca. I'm glad to be here. >> So we're talking today about cloud migration in the public sector in the COVID era, but I want to start by having you introduce yourself to our viewers tell them a little bit about what you do at Deloitte. >> Sure, I'm Shawn Snyder. I'm a managing director based out of Atlanta. I lead our cloud migration offering for our government and public sector clients. So that really means that I serve clients in the government, both public sector local government agencies, as well as federal agencies and helping them move to the cloud, and I'm also responsible for building out our capabilities, our tools, our resources, and people to help clients do that in a very fast and accelerated way. >> So even putting aside the pandemic for a second, shifting to the cloud is such a big and daunting undertaking for so many organizations, including federal agencies. How do you help CIOs and clients think through the processes and what they need to do and how they need to do it? >> Yeah, I mean, it all starts with where are they at on this journey, right? We actually have a show our clients like a typical journey to the cloud and, you know, we have a method and set of tools that we can work with them depending on where they are but if they're just in the initial stages of exploring, moving to cloud, it typically starts with a strategy and really understanding what, you know, how engaged is the mission and the agencies in supporting this. Are they really looking to continue to build their own talent? What is the end state look like? Do they want to build cloud skills and cloud engineering skills within their organization, or are they looking to do more of a managed service model? So a lot of these conversations happen and also around what platforms they want to use and then we typically look at their portfolio of applications. So it could be, you know, they're looking to move out of a data center and go more to a cloud virtual environment. It could be that they're looking to move a couple of mission critical applications that are highly complex with lots of data and sensitive information, so. It really kind of depends on what they're trying to achieve and what is the business result that they're looking to gain. >> And how do you help them think through the business case for this? Because I know that that is definitely an imperative. >> So we take a couple of, I can give you an example. So when we were working with a state in local agency, looking at a big mission critical integrated eligibility system, they wanted to be able to move because they were, the technology was getting a little dated. It was eating inflexible to maintain and when they were looking at the maintenance costs that they were spending on both the infrastructure and the application, it was starting to, you know, take up to 90% of the budget and so the lack of ability to be able to do new capabilities and new innovation when you're talking about especially post COVID, which I know we haven't gotten into, but when they're looking, there's actually more and more products and aid that's being made available. So they need more flexibility, and so what we did was we actually did a bunch of analysis around what does that technology stack look like? What's the cost drivers and then we built out what the future would look like on the, in this particular case was the AWS platform. How could they take advantage of some native services and reduce some of their licensing costs? How could they upgrade through our products? We have a seamless way to upgrade to cloud suitable operating systems. So in this case, they were on an outdated Windows and Linux platforms. We were able to update that to cloud suitable, which allowed them to, you know, save a lot of money in terms of their infrastructure costs to maintain some of that outdated infrastructure and then we get them on end state tools around security monitoring, around infrastructure monitoring and so they can really streamline some of those infrastructure costs as they are spending tremendous amount of money just on the tools when they're managing all of that on-prem, on a complex system. >> So thinking about now we are in this pandemic, which has changed everything about the way we live and the way we work, moving to the cloud was a business goal. Something that a lot of organizations sort of had, in they're two and three year, two and five-year plan. Now it is an absolute mandate. What are you seeing? What are you hearing? What are organizations saying to you now? >> There's just such a, there's such a demand for speed and doing it at scale very fast. So prior to COVID, like you said, it was a multi-year journey. We'll get to it when we can, but there were other priorities that automatic, always got in the way of that and also just the cost justification, right? When you're talking about migration and a lot of times these systems that's portfolio systems are outdated, they're not cloud suitable. So how do you have to refactor them? That can get pretty costly pretty quickly. Now our clients want to move fast and they have a virtual work workforce, they need more scale. They need more storage for some of the data. They need to be able to integrate with other partners, especially in the healthcare space, whether it's at the state and local agency level or in the federal space, that ability to create that ecosystem of being able to transmit and share data in a very secure way at a very large volume is becoming, you know, mission critical with combating COVID with being able to protect our citizens. >> Speed is the name of the game, as you're saying. So what, how is Deloitte investing in automation and what kinds of migration accelerators are you bringing to clients now? >> So a few different things. One, we are partnering with AWS, both on a professional services perspective, as well as with some programs. So we've integrated our methodologies and we've been certified by AWS for our methodology around migration acceleration program. So that's the map because of our qualifications of the amount of migrations we do globally, as well as our methodology and tool set, we're able to offer this joint map program, which allows us to team with AWS. Go on site in quickly use our tools to diagnose what applications are actually at cloud ready to move, how fast can they move? And it gives a lot of information around technical configurations, what servers they reside on, and all of basically the affinities, all of the information you would need to be able to move those applications and if it's not cloud suitable, we can detect if it, how quickly we could get it cloud suitable. What would need to be done is an application code, or is it database, or is it operating system? What are those things that need to get upgraded to move it to the cloud? And is it worth moving to the cloud? So we actually look at the business value that each of these applications are providing and saying, you know, this might be more suited to stay on-prem for now. So we work with them through this map program to really come up with that detailed migration schedule and plan and we then use that information that we collected during that diagnostic phase feeds into our migration tools. So the migration is actually automated with the information that was collected during the diagnostics and the landing zones, and all of the sizing of the infrastructures able to be sized appropriately based on the information that was collected. >> I want to ask you about innovation. In a lot of these Cube Virtual conversations that we're having, we're hearing from a lot of executives that the pandemic has been a forcing mechanism in sort of forcing people to think more resourcefully, more ingenuitively about how they solve these pressing problems. What have you experienced, and have you seen in particular examples of innovation that have been inspiring and exciting for you? >> Yes, absolutely. So I actually work in the federal health space most, and our ability to be able to stand up an application or a service, whether it's a Salesforce service, the AWS platform, but we've been able to stand up contact tracing for local agencies, for state agencies. We've been able to set up cloud native services that allow the data that's getting collected across these different organizations to be able to make meaningful information using machine learning and some of the other native services that are available within cloud and they can be stood up very quickly and very cost-effectively and I think that's the other value that cloud is unlocking for organizations and really now starting to realize that they can move towards innovation and start to spend much more money on innovation than what they were doing previously on spending most of the budget on maintenance. >> When you're talking to clients now about the future, what are they thinking? What's on their minds in this sort of this 12 to 24 month plan? Are they just thinking we just need to get through this next period and cope with this uncertainty? Or are they thinking about the future. >> Moving to cloud isn't just an infrastructure move. I think that's getting your head around what does it mean? What does your workforce have to look like? What does, how do you collaborate with the business? What are the, what is the future innovation use cases? What is going to, how do you actually start to use those use cases to demonstrate early value and start to do things much more in an agile and iterative way instead of, you know, delivering something in a, you know, several months or years. So it, it really is shifting, it's a transformation for how the office of the CIO or how they actually operate. It's creating integrated teams within the CIO organization. We're actually embedding different disciplines like engineering, infrastructure, IT operations, security operations, risk management, financial management, these disciplines as part of these, what we call DevOps DevSecOps type teams, and be able to deliver an end-to-end product on a particular platform in a very agile way. >> In thinking about the future of the workforce and how the pandemic is changing people's careers. I know that you serve as the technology campus champion at Georgia Tech, and you're very active in recruiting bright young business talent. Can you talk to our viewers a little bit about the changes that you foresee in terms of how people plan their careers and their professional development and anything in particular that Deloitte is doing to make sure that the pandemic does not have such a damaging effect, you know, from a lot of statistics that women are dropping out of the workforce in large numbers. >> Yes, so let me unpack your question a couple of ways. So, you know, first of all, you know, I'm really passionate about talent development and recruiting, and I've learned recruiting efforts at the undergrad for many, many years, and I've always been a technologist. So now, like just seeing how technology is embedded in all of the business that we do and it's so mission critical, you now, I'm very focused on making sure there's more women and more minorities going into technology oriented degrees. There's so much you can do with a technology degree and the of career careers that are available, you know, are unlimited. We can't hire enough people that have the right skills. There's just a war on talent for people that have the right security and cybersecurity skills, cloud engineering skills, and just the analytical skills. I mean, this is very complex stuff that you're trying to, you know, build stuff and create stuff that hasn't been created before. So I find it extremely fascinating and I hope that people can see the creative side of things and the scientific it's really bringing it both together and that's what I try to mentor a lot of the recruits on campus. In addition to that, so I think that there's tremendous amount of opportunity for folks going into those types of degrees, as well as for women I, you know, it's been a challenge because people are, you know, some schools aren't closed are not open. If you have a dual working family, it can be a big challenge if you're taking care of children or elderly parents, for example. So at Deloitte, we actually recently implemented a dependent care policy for folks that could take advantage of additional stipend to subsidize, you know, childcare or dependent care. So that's helped a little bit, we're also really focused on diversity inclusion. So, you know, really having candid conversations, individual conversations around what are your boundaries at work right now? Can, do you have to be off right now from, you know, dinner time till bedtime? What does that look like? And we're trying to really help people have the tools and feel comfortable about having those conversations, 'cause it's not just women, it's men, too. I mean, this, these are difficult situations that we're all, you know, co living with our spouses and our significant others and our children, and potentially, you know, extended family members and trying to work in the same environment and is very challenging, and so we're trying to create space for people to be able to have those conversations and make it work for them. >> Don't I know it's Shawn. So just in terms of thinking about the future and what is next for Deloitte, and you've just talked about how you are a technologist at heart, and you see so much excitement about bringing in different disciplines, different functions to solve these urgent and pressing problems. What do you foresee for yourself and for Deloitte over these next couple of years, as we emerge hopefully out of this crisis situation. >> I think Deloitte, you know, one reason I've stayed at Deloitte for so long is that we've always been really focused on how does the technology solve the business problem, the mission problem? And so we have a real opportunity to continue to be able to bring the IT and the technology enablement and make sure it aligns to the business strategy and so the business use cases, you know, we've invested a lot in our labs Capabilities where we're able to bring different disciplines, whether it's, you know, HR and talent thinking about workforce of the future, you know, that technology stack and the architects together, as well as the thinking about across the ecosystem, what are some of the future use cases that you're not even thinking about? So we're able to bring a lot of these different disciplines or subject matter experts together. Now I'll be in a very virtual way, but we've been able to take these lab concepts and it really helps kind of get that out of the possible defined and really strong alignment across these different constituents across the enterprise. So that is really exciting to me. I also think the investment that we're making in our cloud engineering practice, in our alliances with companies like AWS, it really gives us insight into where the technology is going and making sure our staff and our tools and our resources available to us are aligned to that more than investments are being made in the technology. >> So well Shawn thank you so much for coming on theCube Virtual. It's a pleasure having you on the show. >> Thank you very much Rebecca. >> I'm Rebecca Knight stay tuned for more of theCube Virtual's coverage of AWS re:Invent 2020.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. >>Hey, welcome back already, Jeffrey here with the Cube coming to you from Palo Alto studios today for our ongoing coverage of aws reinvent 2020. It's a digital event like everything else in 2020. We're excited for our next segment, so let's jump into it. We're joined in our next segment by Andrew Rafa. He is the principal and zero trust offering lead at the Light and Touche LLP. Andrew, great to see you. >>Thanks for having me. >>Absolutely. And joining him is Robbie Deval. He is the AWS cyber risk lead for Deloitte and Touche LLP. Robbie, Good to see you as well. >>Hey, Jeff, good to see you as well. >>Absolutely. So let's jump into it. You guys are all about zero trust and I know a little bit about zero trust I've been going to are safe for a number of years and I think one of the people that you like to quote analysts chase Cunningham from Forrester, who's been doing a lot of work around zero trust. But for folks that aren't really familiar with it. Andrew, why don't you give us kind of the 101? About zero trust. What is it? What's it all about? And why is it important? >>Sure thing. So is your trust is, um, it's a conceptual framework that helps organizations deal with kind of the ubiquitous nature of modern enterprise environments. Um, and then its course. Your trust commits to a risk based approach to enforcing the concept of least privileged across five key pillars those being users, workloads, data networks and devices. And the reason we're seeing is your trust really come to the forefront is because modern enterprise environments have shifted dramatically right. There is no longer a defined, clearly defined perimeter where everything on the outside is inherently considered, considered untrusted, and everything on the inside could be considered inherently trusted. There's a couple what I call macro level drivers that are, you know, changing the need for organizations to think about securing their enterprises in a more modern way. Um, the first macro level driver is really the evolving business models. So as organizations are pushing to the cloud, um, maybe expanding into into what they were considered high risk geography is dealing with M and A transactions and and further relying on 3rd and 4th parties to maintain some of their critical business operations. Um, the data and the assets by which the organization, um transact are no longer within the walls of the data center. Right? So, again, the perimeter is very much dissolved. The second, you know, macro level driver is really the shifting and evolving workforce. Um, especially given the pandemic and the need for organizations to support almost an entirely remote workforce nowadays, um, organizations, they're trying to think about how they revamp their traditional VPN technologies in order to provide connectivity to their employees into other third parties that need to get access to, uh, the enterprise. So how do we do so in a secure, scalable and reliable way and then the last kind of macro level driver is really the complexity of the I t landscape. So, you know, in legacy environment organizations on Lee had to support managed devices, and today you're seeing the proliferation of unmanaged devices, whether it be you know, B y o d devices, um, Internet of things, devices or other smart connected devices. So organizations are now, you know, have the need to provide connectivity to some of these other types of devices. But how do you do so in a way that, you know limits the risk of the expanding threat surface that you might be exposing your organization to by supporting from these connected devices? So those are some three kind of macro level drivers that are really, you know, constituting the need to think about security in a different >>way. Right? Well, I love I downloaded. You guys have, ah zero trust point of view document that that I downloaded. And I like the way that you you put real specificity around those five pillars again users, workloads, data networks and devices. And as you said, you have to take this kind of approach that it's kind of on a need to know basis. The less, you know, at kind of the minimum they need to know. But then, to do that across all of those five pillars, how hard is that to put in place? I mean, there's a There's a lot of pieces of this puzzle. Um, and I'm sure you know, we talk all the time about baking security and throughout the entire stack. How hard is it to go into a large enterprise and get them started or get them down the road on this zero trust journey? >>Yeah. So you mentioned the five pillars. And one thing that we do in our framework because we put data at the center of our framework and we do that on purpose because at the end of the day, you know, data is the center of all things. It's important for an organization to understand. You know what data it has, what the criticality of that data is, how that data should be classified and the governance around who and what should access it from a no users workloads, uh, networks and devices perspective. Um, I think one misconception is that if an organization wants to go down the path of zero trust, there's a misconception that they have to rip out and replace everything that they have today. Um, it's likely that most organizations are already doing something that fundamentally aligned to the concept of these privilege as it relates to zero trust. So it's important to kind of step back, you know, set a vision and strategy as faras What it is you're trying to protect, why you're trying to protect it. And what capability do you have in place today and take more of an incremental and iterative approach towards adoption, starting with some of your kind of lower risk use cases or lower risk parts of your environment and then implementing lessons learned along the way along the journey? Um, before enforcing, you know more of those robust controls around your critical assets or your crown jewels, if you >>will. Right? So, Robbie, I want to follow up with you, you know? And you just talked about a lot of the kind of macro trends that are driving this and clearly covert and work from anywhere is a big one. But one of the ones that you didn't mention that's coming right around the pike is five g and I o t. Right, so five g and and I o. T. We're going to see, you know, the scale and the volume and the mass of machine generated data, which is really what five g is all about, grow again exponentially. We've seen enough curves up into the right on the data growth, but we've barely scratched the surface and what's coming on? Five G and I o t. How does that work into your plans? And how should people be thinking about security around this kind of new paradigm? >>Yeah, I think that's a great question, Jeff. And as you said, you know, I UT continues to accelerate, especially with the recent investments and five G that you know pushing, pushing more and more industries and companies to adopt a coyote. Deloitte has been and, you know, helping our customers leverage a combination of these technologies cloud, Iot, TML and AI to solve their problems in the industry. For instance, uh, we've been helping restaurants automate their operations. Uh, we've helped automate some of the food safety audit processes they have, especially given the code situation that's been helping them a lot. We are currently working with companies to connect smart, wearable devices that that send the patient vital information back to the cloud. And once it's in the cloud, it goes through further processing upstream through applications and data. Let's etcetera. The way we've been implementing these solutions is largely leveraging a lot of the native services that AWS provides, like device manager that helps you onboard hundreds of devices and group them into different categories. Uh, we leveraged device Defender. That's a monitoring service for making sure that the devices are adhering to a particular security baseline. We also have implemented AWS green grass on the edge, where the device actually resides. Eso that it acts as a central gateway and a secure gateway so that all the devices are able to connect to this gateway and then ultimately connect to the cloud. One common problem we run into is ah, lot of the legacy i o t devices. They tend to communicate using insecure protocols and in clear text eso we actually had to leverage AWS lambda Function on the edge to convert these legacy protocols. Think of very secure and Q t t protocol that ultimately, you know, sense data encrypted to the cloud eso the key thing to recognize. And then the transformational shift here is, um, Cloud has the ability today to impact security off the device and the edge from the cloud using cloud native services, and that continues to grow. And that's one of the key reasons we're seeing accelerated growth and adoption of Iot devices on did you brought up a point about five G and and that's really interesting. And a recent set of investments that eight of us, for example, has been making. And they launched their AWS Waveland zones that allows you to deploy compute and storage infrastructure at the five G edge. So millions of devices they can connect securely to the computer infrastructure without ever having to leave the five g network Our go over the Internet insecurely talking to the cloud infrastructure. Uh, that allows us to actually enable our customers to process large volumes of data in a short, near real time. And also it increases the security of the architectures. Andi, I think truly, uh, this this five g combination with I o t and cloudy, I m l the are the technologies of the future that are collectively pushing us towards a a future where we're gonna Seymour smart cities that come into play driverless connected cars, etcetera. >>That's great. Now I wanna impact that a little bit more because we are here in aws re invent and I was just looking up. We had Glenn Goran 2015, introducing a W S s I O T Cloud. And it was a funny little demo. They had a little greenhouse, and you could turn on the water and open up the windows. But it's but it's a huge suite of services that you guys have at your disposal. Leveraging aws. I wonder, I guess, Andrew, if you could speak a little bit more suite of tools that you can now bring to bear when you're helping your customers go to the zero trust journey. >>Yeah, sure thing. So, um, obviously there's a significant partnership in place, and, uh, we work together, uh, pretty tremendously in the market, one of the service are one of solution offering that we've built out which we dub Delight Fortress, um is a is a concept that plays very nicely into our zero trust framework. More along the kind of horizontal components of our framework, which is really the fabric that ties it all together. Um s o the two horizontal than our framework around telemetry and analytics. A swell the automation orchestration. If I peel back the automation orchestration capability just a little bit, um, we we built this avoid fortress capability in order for organizations to kind of streamline um, some of the vulnerability management aspect of the enterprise. And so we're able through integration through AWS, Lambda and other functions, um, quickly identify cloud configuration issues and drift eso that, um, organizations cannot only, uh, quickly identify some of those issues that open up risk to the enterprise, but also in real time. Um, take some action to close down those vulnerabilities and ultimately re mediate them. Right? So it's way for, um, to have, um or kind of proactive approach to security rather than a reactive approach. Everyone knows that cloud configuration issues are likely the number one kind of threat factor for Attackers. And so we're able to not only help organizations identify those, but then closed them down in real time. >>Yeah, it's interesting because we hear that all the time. If there's a breach and if if they w s involved often it's a it's a configuration. You know, somebody left the door open basically, and and it really drives something you were talking about. Ravi is the increasing important of automation, um, and and using big data. And you talked about this kind of horizontal tele metrics and analytics because without automation, these systems are just getting too big and and crazy for people Thio manage by themselves. But more importantly, it's kind of a signal to noise issue when you just have so much traffic, right? You really need help surfacing. That signals you said so that your pro actively going after the things that matter and not being just drowned in the things that don't matter. Ravi, you're shaking your head up and down. I think you probably agree with this point. >>Yeah, yeah, Jeff and definitely agree with you. And what you're saying is truly automation is a way off dealing with problems at scale. When when you have hundreds of accounts and that spans across, you know, multiple cloud service providers, it truly becomes a challenge to establish a particular security baseline and continue to adhere to it. And you wanna have some automation capabilities in place to be able to react, you know, and respond to it in real time versus it goes down to a ticketing system and some person is having to do you know, some triaging and then somebody else is bringing in this, you know, solution that they implement. And eventually, by the time you're systems could be compromised. So ah, good way of doing this and is leveraging automation and orchestration is just a capability that enhances your operational efficiency by streamlining summed Emmanuel in repetitive tasks, there's numerous examples off what automation and orchestration could do, but from a security context. Some of the key examples are automated security operations, automated identity provisioning, automated incident response, etcetera. One particular use case that Deloitte identified and built a solution around is the identification and also the automated remediation of Cloud security. Miss Consideration. This is a common occurrence and use case we see across all our customers. So the way in the context of a double as the way we did this is we built a event driven architectures that's leveraging eight of us contribute config service that monitors the baselines of these different services. Azzan. When it detects address from the baseline, it fires often alert. That's picked up by the Cloudwatch event service that's ultimately feeding it upstream into our workflow that leverages event bridge service. From there, the workflow goes into our policy engine, which is a database that has a collection off hundreds of rules that we put together uh, compliance activities. It also matched maps back to, ah, large set of controls frameworks so that this is applicable to any industry and customer, and then, based on the violation that has occurred, are based on the mis configuration and the service. The appropriate lambda function is deployed and that Lambda is actually, uh, performing the corrective actions or the remediation actions while, you know, it might seem like a lot. But all this is happening in near real time because it is leveraging native services. And some of the key benefits that our customers see is truly the ease of implementation because it's all native services on either worse and then it can scale and, uh, cover any additional eight of those accounts as the organization continues to scale on. One key benefit is we also provide a dashboard that provides visibility into one of the top violations that are occurring in your ecosystem. How many times a particular lambda function was set off to go correct that situation. Ultimately, that that kind of view is informing. Thea Outfront processes off developing secure infrastructure as code and then also, you know, correcting the security guard rails that that might have drifted over time. Eso That's how we've been helping our customers and this particular solution that we developed. It's called the Lloyd Fortress, and it provides coverage across all the major cloud service providers. >>Yeah, that's a great summary. And I'm sure you have huge demand for that because he's mis configuration things. We hear about him all the time and I want to give you the last word for we sign off. You know, it's easy to sit on the side of the desk and say, Yeah, we got a big security and everything and you got to be thinking about security from from the time you're in, in development all the way through, obviously deployment and production and all the minutes I wonder if you could share. You know, you're on that side of the glass and you're out there doing this every day. Just a couple of you know, kind of high level thoughts about how people need to make sure they're thinking about security not only in 2020 but but really looking down the like another road. >>Yeah, yeah, sure thing. So, you know, first and foremost, it's important to align. Uh, any transformation initiative, including your trust to business objectives. Right? Don't Don't let this come off as another I t. Security project, right? Make sure that, um, you're aligning to business priorities, whether it be, you know, pushing to the cloud, uh, for scalability and efficiency, whether it's digital transformation initiative, whether it be a new consumer identity, Uh uh, an authorization, um, capability of china built. Make sure that you're aligning to those business objectives and baking in and aligning to those guiding principles of zero trust from the start. Right, Because that will ultimately help drive consensus across the various stakeholder groups within the organization. Uh, and build trust, if you will, in the zero trust journey. Um, one other thing I would say is focus on the fundamentals. Very often, organizations struggle with some. You know what we call general cyber hygiene capabilities. That being, you know, I t asset management and data classifications, data governance. Um, to really fully appreciate the benefits of zero trust. It's important to kind of get some of those table six, right? Right. So you have to understand, you know what assets you have, what the criticality of those assets are? What business processes air driven by those assets. Um, what your data criticality is how it should be classified intact throughout the ecosystem so that you could really enforce, you know, tag based policy, uh, decisions within, within the control stack. Right. And then finally, in order to really push the needle on automation orchestration, make sure that you're using technology that integrate with each other, right? So taken a p I driven approach so that you have the ability to integrate some of these heterogeneous, um, security controls and drive some level of automation and orchestration in order to enhance your your efficiency along the journey. Right. So those were just some kind of lessons learned about some of the things that we would, uh, you know, tell our clients to keep in mind as they go down the adoption journey. >>That's a great That's a great summary s So we're gonna have to leave it there. But Andrew Robbie, thank you very much for sharing your insight and and again, you know, supporting this This move to zero trust because that's really the way it's got to be as we continue to go forward. So thanks again and enjoy the rest of your reinvent. >>Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for your time. >>All right. He's Andrew. He's Robbie. I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube from AWS reinvent 2020. Thanks for watching. See you next time.

>> Announcer: From around the globe. It's theCUBE with digital coverage of AWS re:Invent 2020, sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. (upbeat music) >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're coming to you from our Palo Alto studios today with our ongoing coverage of AWS re:Invent 2020. It's a virtual event, like all the events in 2020, but we've been going there since 2013. We're happy to be back this year and we're excited to have for the first time on theCUBE, our next guest, she's Kelly Herod the US SAP Offering Leader for Deloitte Consulting. Kelly, great to see you. >> Great to see you as well, Jeff, thanks so much for having me. >> Absolutely, so first time on, on theCUBE, you guys have a really interesting concept at Deloitte, you call it the Kinetic Enterprise. What is the Kinetic Enterprise all about? >> Yes. So if you think about the past, organizations built their technology infrastructures to be what we would call built to last, the future though is all about built to evolve. And that's exactly what the Kinetic Enterprise is. It's really how we're helping our clients create the right technology infrastructures that evolve with their business. And Kinetic Enterprise is focused on four key pillars. The first, that we're building a technology solution that's clean. That means we want to have reduced amount of custom code or things that we may have built that really rack up your technical debt. The second pillar is that it's intelligent. So we're leveraging all of the technologies, artificial intelligence, machine learning, to really automate and change the way in which an organization runs their business. The third pillar is that it's responsive, and that means it's on the cloud and this is where AWS comes in. And then the last pillar is that it's inclusive. So it uses all of the technologies and microservices available to really optimize and achieve a company's business value objectives. >> So that is a great summary, and I've got the list of the four pillars. It's just interesting you lead with clean. You know, there's a lot of conversation about digital transformation and move fast and be dynamic, you know, would be kind of an opposite to static. But clean, interesting choice of words. It runs with core... Core clean ERP with minimum technical debt. Why clean is such an important thing? I get kind of intelligent and responsive, but clean is an interesting attribute to pick. >> Absolutely, so if you take a step back and think... (Kelly hangs) when comes to ERPs, when ERPs came out, there was... (Kelly hangs) how you're going to run your entire organization on this one solution. What we've found is that as companies have put ERPs, they've gone through and created so much customization, that it's that which makes it very difficult to be able to keep up with technology changes or actually migrate to the next versions. So the concept here is if you're going to go in and put in brand new ERP, such as an SAP S/4HANA, this time around in order to achieve the promise of ERPs, let's make it clean. Let's stick to as much standard functionality as possible within the core, and then we innovate on the edges. And so that will allow us in the future to maintain that flexibility or dynamicism of a Kinetic Enterprise. >> Right. So I have to tease you Kelly 'cause SAP R/3 and ERP is not necessarily synonymous with digital transformation, speed, agility, and embracing change. So you've been involved in Deloitte's SAP practice for a long time. Why should people start to rethink about SAP in terms of being responsive, in terms of being able to change quickly and to your vocabulary, more kinetic? >> And you're right. You know, I've been doing SAP for 20 years. So I actually did start back in the R/3 days. And, you know, I would just say that things are changing, is evolving. You know, SAP themselves has been going through a transformation, a revolution. You look at the ERP landscape as a whole, all of the ERP players are moving to the cloud. The technology is the backbones are changing. Now the reality is, you know, going in and actually changing out your ERP, no matter what solution you're using, it's a big endeavor or undertaking. The goal here, and why we're partnering with SAP, partnering with AWS is really focused on how can we make this more efficient for our clients? More importantly, I like to think about it as how can we make this less of a one and done, and more of a let's keep transforming the technologies and the business as things are changing in the market, along the way. And using technologies to even change how we implement, allows us to do that. >> So, Kelly, another thing a lot of people probably don't think of is SAP and AWS, together in the same sentence. So I'm sure there's a lot of people that are much more intelligent about this, but for those that aren't as familiar, tell us a little bit about the relationship with SAP and AWS and then how you guys are leveraging that at Deloitte. >> Absolutely. So when you... There's a couple of things that I would bring up. One is SAP S/4HANA solutions, in particular, but any SAP environment that you're running on, one of the objectives most of our clients are focused on is how to move to the cloud, and that's where AWS comes in. You can absolutely run any of your SAP solutions on AWS. And what that brings you with is more flexibility, so that you can actually scale or contract your infrastructure that you're running SAP on based on your business needs. The second thing that we've been partnering with AWS to do is a little bit of what I just mentioned, which was a teaser around, how do you change the way you even go about implementing an SAP solution or start to migrate your business? So one of the things we asked ourselves was, could we radically change how you jumpstart an S/4 implementation? And what we decided to do is team up with AWS and leveraging machine learning, artificial intelligence, most importantly, standing up an environment on AWS. We actually created what we call Kinetic Finance Startup. Many of our clients are choosing to start with finance and specifically SAP central finance to begin their journey to the new S/4HANA environment. And what we've been able to do is create a touchless build solution, so over a weekend, we can actually connect to your existing ERP solution. Majority of those is starting with an ECC environment. We can extract the data, we can use harmonization rules to actually change and modify your data and optimize it for the future. And then we actually through completely touchless built-in automation, stand up a brand new AWS environment with S/4HANA on it and actually automate the configuration and testing of the basic financial transactions. So when you come in the next week and we start the conversation with the client, we're actually looking at a real life S/4HANA system on AWS with their mas... >> Oh, that's... >> So the whole concept is to change how we engage. >> Right. So again, I don't know that I were to think of finance as kind of a lead application, to start this journey. I mean, I can see on one hand, it is the system of record and it, you know, it has a lot of very important information that's got to eventually get into finance. On the other hand, it seems like there's less critical, maybe lower hanging fruit that's less risky. Is it because you can run it kind of in a parallel path for some period of time, but it strikes me that finance might not be the first place you go to look for some early wins. >> It's actually what you just said about the parallelism. So the reason we've seen that finance actually was one of the starting points is even if you look at the history of SAP's S/4HANA solution, way back before we got to that, it started with a concept called smart accounting or simple finance. And the theory here is, you could actually... If a company has, let's say multiple ERPs, as most do, you can actually grab the financial information, bring it into a new S/4 or central finance environment, and actually combine or merge the accounting information to get improved reporting, optimize a shared service organization. So it's actually a lower risk way to start the journey before going and touching the heart of the business or core operations, or manufacturing, for example, >> That's pretty interesting. So you run it in parallel for a while and then eventually does, is the plan that it takes over, from the old. So it is effectively kind of, I guess, a slightly delayed lift and shift, or maybe it's a reassemble and then a flip. I don't know how you would describe it because it's not really lift and shift. >> It's not really lift and shift actually, you have two options. You can either over time pull all of your business processes out of the underlying ERP solutions and bring them into the S/4HANA environment or multiple S/4HANA environments. Or some companies may choose to continue to... (Kelly hangs) Especially if you're in an industry where you do a lot of acquisitions or divestitures, you may not have an intention of ever combining all of your ERPs, but you may want to change each of them to S/4HANA underneath, and then have one environment in which you're pulling your data together to really consolidate your financial reporting. >> That's great. I want to follow up on something that you mentioned, which is the use of machine learning and artificial intelligence. And we talk a lot about, right? Those are hot buzzwords all over the place, but, you know, I'm pretty vehement in that, you know, general purpose AI and ML is kind of interesting, but where the real interesting stuff ends is where the rubber hits the road, is in applied. And it sounds like you've got a pretty interesting application where you're applying this technology to help make this move to cloud go a little bit smoother. >> Yes. One of the areas, you know, since we've been talking a bit about finance then I'll use it as an example. Is if you think about it, whenever we go in and we're typically working with... (Kelly hangs) especially in finance, you know, one of the topics is, how to optimize a chart of accounts? So over time we've done this hundreds of times, if we can look at different sectors, different industries, we can use benchmark chart of accounts. So instead of making this a paper-based exercise that individuals are doing, why not take that and actually use artificial intelligence machine learning to create data harmonization rules, so that technologies can actually do that same work. And so that's been one of the things we've been working on that I personally find very interesting just in my finance background. >> Right. And is this a relatively new thing, or have you guys been doing this for a while? >> Actually, it's something that over the last 12 months, we've been focused on building out in partnership with AWS. So it's fairly new. >> That's great. I want... I'd love to shift gears a little bit, and talk about COVID, and the impact of COVID on your business. Clearly in March, right? It was the light switch moment and everybody had to work from home and it was a quick rush to make sure that everybody was safe and we could support our remote workers, that said, can't help with the ba... All the bad stuff that's happening in hospitality and travel, and a whole lot of other industries. So that aside and that's bad stuff. In the tech industry, we were able to make the move, but now we know we're six, seven, eight months into this thing, and it's clear that, you know, we're going to have many elements of this going forward for a while. So I'm curious just from your business and your customer point of view, if you can share, you know, kind of the contrast of what happened in March and April to what you're seeing now and how this new reality, whatever this new reality is going to be, as we, you know, continue to evolve is impacting this digital transformation conversations? >> It is interesting. So if I pivot back to March, when this all occurred, you know, it truly did feel an instant going from in-person. And as consultants we travel and typically have a Monday through Thursday, or Monday through Friday type of travel schedule to an instant working from home overnight. And, you know, I'm really proud of our teams and how they seamlessly made that transition. Many, including myself, were actually leading clients through final cut overs in parallel to this happening. And we were able to really pivot and make those shifts, and I was reflecting with one of the executives I worked with, you know, she and I, you know, six months later, we're looking back at how we did that and how impressed we were with what the team pulled off. And since then, they've been able to do several other go lives, which is great. But I think that it was something we had to do quickly. I think many would have said it couldn't have been done that you would see the whole world move to a working from home environment, but we did. What it tells me is it gives me a lot of hope for a lot of the things that businesses can do in the future. In the past we used to constrain ourselves of, Oh, there's no way we could ever get XYZ done, or we can't make this type of change in the world, but we can. If I flash forward to now, I think we're very settled in kind of this new way of working, but I'm also hopeful for what the future is going to look like. I don't believe it will be a pivot all the way back to... Especially for consultants traveling on a regular basis of Monday through Friday. Instead, I think we're going to create models that give people and organizations the flexibility they need to really balance some of their personal responsibilities along with their work responsibilities. My hope and expectations is that also opens up options so that all organizations have access to more talent that they may not have had before. And I think that also means global talent. I think we're showing we can work as global teams, which means, you know, I could now have members from Japan joining, you know, my permanent leadership team in ways that I maybe never have thought of before. Those are just some examples of what I expect and hope for all of us that we'll see coming out of this. >> Hopefully and I know... Like you said, you've been a consultant for years and years and years, and you guys spend lots of time on airplanes, and hopefully you don't have to spend quite so much time on airplanes because you don't necessarily have to be there all the time. But you talked about an interesting thing and that's talent and opening up the opportunity to get more talent that maybe you wouldn't have ever considered. And along those same lines, right? Is the move in diversity and inclusion. And I just watched a show that you did a few months ago, called the... "A Chance for Change: Accelerating Business Recovery, Through Gender Diversity," on a Facebook interview, very cool panel, really enjoyed it. And I want to follow up on some of those things, 'cause you've made some really simple and poignant points. And one of the things that you said definitively, go back to the wide diverse talent and perspective equals winning in business, period. I love that. You know, we hear this all the time that, you know, not only is it the right thing to do, but it's also good for business. And isn't it nice when those two things can actually line up. And you just talked about, you know, in more of a generic sense, the ability to open up your talent window when there's a worldwide talent shortage, both for geography, but also the work in diversity and inclusion and to continue to hold the momentum that continues to build in this area. I wonder if you could, you know, kind of share your thoughts on that, and your position and what's going on with Deloitte. >> Absolutely. You know, I do think this is one of those key pivotal moments for all of us, and I believe we have, coming out of this an option to really move the needle on our diversity and inclusion, and equality efforts. You know, one example I think about women, women in leadership positions. You know, being in consulting, you know, one of the challenges has always been that we do travel a lot, and it can be difficult to balance all the responsibilities, professional and personally. I think with a move to more flexible work arrangements, less travel, or travel for purpose is what I would highlight for the future. I think it opens the door to many more women being able to have careers in consulting, if that's what they, you know, had desired. I also think it allows them to have... You know, spend their entire careers in consulting and in ways we never saw before. And that means you'll see as significant movement and women in leadership positions. I also think this applies to underrepresented minorities. I hope that from all of this, instead of there may be companies that focus on recruiting from, you know, schools that are local to them or within their surrounding areas. I think this gives us an opportunity to really open that aperture up and look at talent from any school or university, or geography, and being able to get the right skill sets in the door and the right talent. Therefore you can actually see movement and diversity within teams, as well as at the leadership levels for URMs. >> Right. Right. And really managing to the right things too. I think that's the other thing that's coming out of this, and we've had a lot of conversations on work from home or work from anywhere. You guys are a little bit different than the consultant 'cause your team is there, usually local at the client site for some period of time. But for a lot of people, it's the first time they are not sitting across from a desk or, you know, within close proximity. Now you too, in your teams. And so, the shift changes that now you have to judge output, (Jeff chuckles) and not activity. And you would think that that would be a great and easy thing to execute, but we're hearing more and more that it's not necessarily. And you really highlighted, I think, three leadership traits that are always important, but more important now than ever before in that other interview. And I just want to call them out 'cause I thought it was worth calling out. You know, empathy has never been more important. Resilience, and my favorite one you said at the end, calm in the storm. I just wonder again, if you could share, you know, kind of, as you've gone through it, both, you know, as somebody at Deloitte within the greater Deloitte group, but then also in managing your own teams, to maintain that calm in the storm and to maintain, you know, empathetic leadership, because I think you've said it before, right? This is a personal challenge that we're all going through. We all have different things going on at home, whether it's the spouses working, the kids are doing homeschool. People are taking care of older parents, this and that. It's a real personal thing, and so these leadership characteristics, these softer leadership characteristics have never been more important >> That's so true. And, you know, when I think about the empathy part, right now what we're going through is also about how is each of us as leaders also sharing a bit more about how we're experiencing this? I think the sharing of stories is what also helps many on the teams adapt, adjust. The reality is when you're working on camera all day and, you know, in the past, imagine that you maybe were having a tough day or you weren't feeling that great, you weren't on camera all day with every one of your coworkers. You we're actually, you know, sitting in an office, you may have to go to the conference room to do some meetings, but you didn't look... (Kelly hangs) like someone was kind of staring at you all day long. Now, when we're working from home virtually and we're on Zoom or Skype or WebEx, et cetera, all day, it does feel like you're under the lights when you're on camera. And there's a lot of pressure and people are trying to figure out how to manage their own emotions while doing that. And, you know, my message would say as an empathetic leader, it's okay for you to also share when you might be having a tough go that day. Maybe one of your children has been kind of acting out and they didn't really want to do the virtual school. It's okay to share in that because everyone's going through it, and it makes us all more human. >> Right. >> And it makes us all more connected. >> Right. Well, I will share with you a pro tip, we've done a few of these interviews and it is okay to let people turn off the camera. And I think as a manager, I think it's actually an okay thing to say, okay, everyone, let's just turn off our cameras and get a break from that camera that's got that eye on you all the time, because it is just another, you know, kind of a factor that we have to deal with. Well, go ahead. >> And I was going to ask, what do you actually, you know, I don't know what one of your techniques is, but I know mine is some of the meetings, it's actually just go back to traditional telephone calls (Jeff chuckles) and actually even just being on your cell, put on your air, you know, your earbuds, or your headphones and even walk. >> Right. >> So I think the other thing we're all missing is actually that movement, the steps to go to the coffee maker and back, or to lunch and back, we don't have them anymore. So you've got to work extra hard, actually getting those extra steps in calories and just mental breaks at times. >> Yeah, well then there's a whole another tranche on walking during meetings. And I used have a boss that I would only do one-on-ones while we took a walk. He always says, I get in there... 'Cause then there's, you know, you're not necessarily looking at each other. And if there's some sensitive things or tough conversations, sometimes it's easier if you're not just looking across the table at one another with all the silence. So there's a lot to be said for that as well. Well, Kelly, I really enjoyed this conversation and getting to meet you for the first time. It sounds like you're doing a lot of cool and exciting things and, you know, exciting speed and innovation with SAP, that's noble work and I'm sure a lot of people are really happy to have you help them out there. So thank you very much for your time and to have a great AWS re:Invent. >> Thanks, Jeff. It was great to discuss this with you. >> Absolutely. All right. She's Kelly, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE's ongoing coverage of AWS re:Invent 2020. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> from the Cosmopolitan Hotel in Las Vegas, Nevada. It's the Cube covering Cooper inspired 2019. Brought to You by Cooper. >> Welcome to the Q. But Lisa Martin on the ground in Las Vegas for Cooper Inspire. 19 Hot Vegas. Fresh Insight. I'm pleased to welcome Max Ground, the managing director from Deloitte to the program. Hey, Max. >> Good morning. Good afternoon. >> Good afternoon. Whatever time it is, Vegas Right here is this. It's a time warp. They don't like you see outside It's >> only place the world. The 25th hour. >> Right? So here we are. It inspired 19 kick Everything kicked off this morning with the general session. I was teasing Rob Bernstein a couple hours ago and I had him on that. I learned three things in the general session. He likes pizza, he likes kittens. And Cuba's platform now has 1.2 trillion dollars of spending data going through it. And I thought, man procurement is not what I thought. It wa ce and you have a really >> interesting story about procurement. I'd love for you to share with our audience >> because you said in your session earlier today you said people in this standing your morning session. How many of you wanted to be on procurement? Anybody that raises their hands of line tell me about the procurement of yesterday, the >> opportunities that it's given you and what it is now. >> So I think >> in the past, >> security has been something that had to happen. It was a must have not a place that people saw value. But was the rule enforcers right? So trying to do that and really adding value by discipline, where today, if you think about it, the value that they can add by driving savings authorization drops right to the bomb line. So all the savings that are out there, all >> the negotiations that are doing, it's really unique skill set >> and something that people really should move into finance folks when they're looking for a new opportunity. It's a great skill set to have. Lately I've come across a former attorneys are practicing law but now doing strategic sourcing, doing procurement, work, people from finance because the talent that you have to have is field work with people within their companies, understand their needs, negotiate with suppliers, do hard core analytics and, oh, by the way, we're talking about Cooper has helped in change and implemented technology like that. It's really fascinating. >> It's so much more than >> being a buyer or being somebody that's controlling a particular business unit's ability to buy and spend. >> One of the interesting things about Cooper is this platform that allows what started, I >> think, initially as more procurement corner invoicing is now expanded to also include payments and expenses and travel management and contingent workhorse management. So what the CPO now has the opportunity to do is get this visibility right across an entire business of all of the spending, to your point, make massive impacts to the bottom line. >> Yeah, I >> mean, data is so important, right? In the past, the vendors had all the information. Why? Because the sales people how to get commissions. They knew exactly what was being bought of that company. Today, you can reverse engineer saying, selling cells. I say it's reverse sales. I can't go in there and I tell them now I have the full picture. So if it's divided up that category by three or four different vendors, they're making assumptions about how much market share they have. I know it all. I can create a model, a pricing model on the reverse. Engineer it. It's really for sales. I'm telling them now why they should give me a great discount for the organization and >> I >> have the ability to actually enforce that and drive the savings that we have for the organization. It also helped them drive their numbers on sales. So it's a mutually beneficial relationship. They have more market share. I drive better value for the organization. It really works well, >> Well, one of the destructor is that you're kind of alluded to Is this consumer ization? You know, when you go to buy >> a car these days, you just walk in there. You have as a as a buyer of the consumer oven automobile. You have access to every piece of information possible, the whole transaction process. The sales process is different. So as consumers in our regular lives, we have so much expectation that weaken, find anything good Amazon, find anything that we want, get it delivered tomorrow and have all these information on what? Where's the best place I could get it? Who's selling it for what? How is this person that you know, more trustworthy supplier So this consumer ization element and how it's changing the role of the CPO in the CFO is >> really revolutionary. >> It really isn't so you think about it. Most of us go out to Amazon by something, and really the only control there for me, for example, is my wife has to approve it, right, so that's the only veto authority. So that's really the only difference between the two platforms. If you think about it is, there's controls in place, so you're doing the right thing. But from an end user perspective, if I go out there and find the right item and again in Amazon, I don't to go find the supplier. I don't know if that be on contract. Why don't you do that work? We shouldn't have to. I should just go out there and say, I need this And in the background, Cooper is working all those things, presenting the right products on the right contracts, driving right value and almost is important, minimizing the risk. So across all those different lenses, you see why the value of Cooper is for the end user. They're getting what they need for the organization, for the company we're reducing risk and we're increasing value, and then you have rich reporting on the back end. So it's just it's a great way of doing business. It really is taking what you used to do or what you do. It's Sunday afternoon like Rob, you say Monday at work, and I think that's really powerful thing of perspective. >> It is. And it can be so impactful if applied in the right way with an organization, whether it's a manufacturer or hospital or retailer that has a culture that is willing to embrace change, right? I mean, there's that right, Especially >> get him to get your >> perspective on when you're implementing Cooper at a large organization. Maybe have been around for many, many years versus maybe a more modern that we think might be more nimble organization. Culturally, Do you see massive differences in how they're leading procurement, and are you able to sort of level the playing field and show them doesn't matter what your culture is? Here's how your business, your body. >> So from a change perspective, I think there's a different perception. The newer, nimbler organization believes that they changed easy, but it still may have people the older organisation again still made people most people don't like to change. What I have learned is if you help them understand the value of it, how they're doing it, how their jobs are going to change and give them the tools to do it. Some people are gonna be early adopters. But finding that one person, the organization, no matter what level they are in that business unit or in that department that has that informal voice that people look to naturally, that the Nazi leader who's in a leadership position with leader from a personality perspective get them on board. And sometimes that's the hardest thing to do. They might be the most changed resistant, but was that person flips, They become your greatest greatest advocate out there. So it's a personal thing. This is hard work. That's why I talk about in our sessions, is going through. This requires a lot of work, but it's worth it. You can measure the value on the end that you got help. People understand why you're going on this journey and have have resource is there for help. >> So what were some of that? You said you did good Q and a session during your break out this afternoon. >> Tell me some of >> the things that that some of the audience said that you thought was really like they're getting it, >> Yes. So the whole point of our session was going live is not really the goal, right? That's just >> a guess, the exact right. >> And so most people focus on going live, and the answer is congratulations. You purchased the product, Kuba, and now it's working. So what? You don't have any real data? What do you do in the future? Some questions were as they're going through Supplier Neighborhood. The shift between procurement now taking a larger role in the relationships with the vendors. Well, that's great. It should be a balanced relationship. You know, there's a procurement role in that. And then there's the end. Users are the people in the organization from the business. You have to relate with those suppliers, so work together. If you were together in the past now it's a great time to do that. There's some other questions about if something is not working correctly. Post go live how quick It's not broken, but it could be optimized or you're getting complaints about. How quick should you change it? The answer is, I don't know, measuring yourself. I mean, obviously it's broken. Fix it. But it might be something around change. And maybe you have to help people understand why they're doing this new process. If people are giving feedback positive, negative, mostly native, was positive. We just go off our way. Welcome to Yelp. But if it's negative feedback, listen, don't get offended, understand that perspective and then measure it. Say, Is this something that we did is saying the platform, or is it just changed and work with it? What I tell our clients to is in Cooper, Just cause you can doesn't mean you should. I mean, that's really easy to build a field custom field, really easy to build, custom approval chance, really hard to maintain that stuff. So try to do it out of the not out of the box, but configured without as much customization as possible, and they can always improve it, understand it better. >> I think the key to adoption is the more customization that you have. I imagine the adoption funnel gets narrower and narrower. It's got >> interesting, so you customize because you think that's the way the process should go, because that's how we do it today. So if your goal is to take how you do your process today and put into Cooper, also tell clients congratulations. If you had a bad process now you're bad process that works faster. So take the time to say, Let's step back. Companies evolve, right? And so as they're evolving, if you haven't taken a really a view purposeful of you backwards and measure organization, where you're out from a charity model assessment, then you probably don't know where your gaps are. Take the opportunity when you're implying Cooper to use kind of leading practice that Cooper has start with that and said, Going back to what you're doing today, you know what a great example. That's improvers, right? So people like to have 10 approve er's because they think it reduces risk. So if I go back and look and I asked the audience, say, how many purchase order requests rejected? Very few. And how long do people actually have it open when they re prove it? So that's three seconds when they open it up and looked at it, do they really assess it from a risk perspective? Probably not. But if four people ahead of them approved it, that person's just gotta prove it, because I think it's okay because they're assuming someone else is looking at it, as opposed to in Cooper. Now I have the rich data to understand it. I could minimize risk that way instead of trying to do it. And what is a false sense of security? >> So getting people on board with bringing in automation and leveraging like I was saying in the beginning, the 1.2 trillion of spend that's going through the Cooper platform toe leverage that intelligence to not only have Cooper create the prescriptions for companies to be able to go. Okay, we don't we shouldn't your point. We shouldn't take a process that was clunky before and just do it faster. Still clunky, being able to have the automation thing. Analytics. Really, Those core enabling technologies can also be quite revolutionary. >> Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So the coop insights now, and you're seeing that measured against others and its mass, but you see how you're doing it, So this is really powerful sitting your goals out there and seeing how you're doing. Adjusting those really question yourself is, if we're not getting is approved in the speed that we thought, How do we do it differently? Right, So and that's nice about Cuba. It is really sounds right, and they really do come out with three releases a year, which is powerful. And so it's always changing, which means you have to be nimble. Understand your organization, adopting the new technologies to come out. They're also looking at their acquisitions and seeing that fits into what you're doing. >> Exactly. Last question for you is the announcement of the expansion of their in the AWS marketplace today and thinking, Wow, the I t person is probably gonna finally all these Shadow I T units that are popping up in finance and marketing and engineering and whatnot. They now have the ability to see and manage the entire software from search to deployment and management through AWS. What advantage is that going to give Deloitte when you're working with Cooper customers on implementation? >> That's probably too soon to say on that one. All the expansions they're having really help us with another tool. Tell clients I would say that there's always measuring the benefit for that client in the risk. So even if you take Amazon, for example, just opened by for Cooper is managing that So Amazon. When they first came out with Amazon for business open by, you couldn't control the categories that were exposed to the client. Now you can, but you can't control the items. So having a process in place, having a category strategy and then maximizing it if Amazon works that client fantastic, AWS is gonna get them or visibility across their platforms to manage those better. Fantastic. I think it just gives another opportunity to bring clients back into Cooper. Have a look at the value for Cooper from an end and solution, and all these wraparound acquisitions are making our expansions with their clients, people pay and all those other pieces out there. It's just another thing for them to have a goal and understand make a decision from their business, whether they're going to use it or not. But there's there's value across the board. Every every client is different, >> Absolutely. But it's also that that consumer ization approach that if you can take a process that somebody does on their own time, whether they're buying soccer balls or pool and bring that to their business life, that consumer ization following them. You think with potential there to transform every industry, every function, every line of business. It's just infinite. So >> truly dot, >> dot dot to me. Continue. Absolutely Wish we had more time. But Max, thank you so much for joining me on the Cube today and talk doing talking to me about what's going on at Deloitte and congrats on having us standing. You're only sessions. That's good, right? Take for Max Ground like I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube from Cooper Inspire 19. Thanks for watching.