>> Narrator: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (bright upbeat music plays) >> Welcome back to Barcelona, everybody. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of MWC '23, my name is Dave Vellante. Just left a meeting with the CEO of Cisco, Chuck Robbins, to meet with Jeetu Patel, who's our Executive Vice President and General Manager of security and collaboration at Cisco. Good to see you. >> You never leave a meeting with Chuck Robbins to meet with Jeetu Patel. >> Well, I did. >> That's a bad idea. >> Walked right out. I said, hey, I got an interview to do, right? So, and I'm excited about this. Thanks so much for coming on. >> Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. >> So, I mean you run such an important part of the business. I mean, obviously the collaboration business but also security. So many changes going on in the security market. Maybe we could start there. I mean, there hasn't been a ton of security talk here Jeetu, because I think it's almost assumed. It was 45 minutes into the keynote yesterday before anybody even mentioned security. >> Huh. >> Right? And so, but it's the most important topic in the enterprise IT world. And obviously is important here. So why is it you think that it's not the first topic that people mention. >> You know, it's a complicated subject area and it's intimidating. And actually that's one of the things that the industry screwed up on. Where we need to simplify security so it actually gets to be relatable for every person on the planet. But, if you think about what's happening in security, it's not just important for business it's critical infrastructure that if you had a breach, you know lives are cost now. Because hospitals could go down, your water supply could go down, your electricity could go down. And so it's one of these things that we have to take pretty seriously. And, it's 51% of all breaches happen because of negligence, not because of malicious intent. >> It's that low. Interesting. I always- >> Someone else told me the same thing, that they though it'd be higher, yeah. >> I always say bad user behavior is going to trump good security every time. >> Every single time. >> You can't beat it. But, you know, it's funny- >> Jeetu: Every single time. >> Back, the earlier part of last decade, you could see that security was becoming a board level issue. It became, it was on the agenda every quarter. And, I remember doing some research at the time, and I asked, I was interviewing Robert Gates, former Defense Secretary, and I asked him, yeah, but we're getting attacked but don't we have the best offense? Can't we have the best technology? He said, yeah but we have so much critical infrastructure the risks to United States are higher. So we have to be careful about how we use security as an offensive weapon, you know? And now you're seeing the future of war involves security and what's going on in Ukraine. It's a whole different ballgame. >> It is, and the scales always tip towards the adversary, not towards the defender, because you have to be right every single time. They have to be right once. >> Yeah. And, to the other point, about bad user behavior. It's going now beyond the board level, to it's everybody's responsibility. >> That's right. >> And everybody's sort of aware of it, everybody's been hacked. And, that's where it being such a complicated topic is problematic. >> It is, and it's actually, what got us this far will not get us to where we need to get to if we don't simplify security radically. You know? The experience has to be almost invisible. And what used to be the case was sophistication had to get to a certain level, for efficacy to go up. But now, that sophistication has turned to complexity. And there's an inverse relationship between complexity and efficacy. So the simpler you make security, the more effective it gets. And so I'll give you an example. We have this great kind of innovation we've done around passwordless, right? Everyone hates passwords. You shouldn't have passwords in 2023. But, when you get to passwordless security, not only do you reduce a whole lot of friction for the user, you actually make the system safer. And that's what you need to do, is you have to make it simpler while making it more effective. And, I think that's what the future is going to hold. >> Yeah, and CISOs tell me that they're, you know zero trust before the pandemic was like, yeah, yeah zero trust. And now it's like a mandate. >> Yeah. >> Every CISO you talk to says, yes we're implementing a zero trust architecture. And a big part of that is that, if they can confirm zero trust, they can get to market a lot faster with revenue generating or critical projects. And many projects as we know are being pushed back, >> Yeah. >> you know? 'Cause of the macro. But, projects that drive revenue and value they want to accelerate, and a zero trust confirmation allows people to rubber stamp it and go faster. >> And the whole concept of zero trust is least privileged access, right? But what we want to make sure that we get to is continuous assessment of least privileged access, not just a one time at login. >> Dave: 'Cause things change so frequently. >> So, for example, if you happen to be someone that's logged into the system and now you start doing some anomalous behavior that doesn't sound like Dave, we want to be able to intercept, not just do it at the time that you're authenticating Dave to come in. >> So you guys got a good business. I mentioned the macro before. >> Yeah. >> The big theme is consolidating redundant vendors. So a company with a portfolio like Cisco's obviously has an advantage there. You know, you guys had great earnings. Palo Alto is another company that can consolidate. Tom Gillis, great pickup. Guy's amazing, you know? >> Love Tom. >> Great respect. Just had a little webinar session with him, where he was geeking out with the analyst and so- >> Yeah, yeah. >> Learned a lot there. Now you guys have some news, at the event event with Mercedes? >> We do. >> Take us through that, and I want to get your take on hybrid work and what's happening there. But what's going on with Mercedes? >> Yeah so look, it all actually stems from the hybrid work story, which is the future is going to be hybrid, people are going to work in mixed mode. Sometimes you'll be in the office, sometimes at home, sometimes somewhere in the middle. One of the places that people are working more and more from is their cars. And connected cars are getting to be a reality. And in fact, cars sometimes become an extension of your home office. And many a times I have found myself in a parking lot, because I didn't have enough time to get home and I was in a parking lot taking a conference call. And so we've made that section easier, because we have now partnered with Mercedes. And they aren't the first partner, but they're a very important partner where we are going to have Webex available, through the connected car, natively in Mercedes. >> Ah, okay. So I could take a call, I can do it all the time. I find good service, pull over, got to take the meeting. >> Yeah. >> I don't want to be driving. I got to concentrate. >> That's right. >> You know, or sometimes, I'll have the picture on and it's not good. >> That's right. >> Okay, so it'll be through the console, and all through the internet? >> It'll be through the console. And many people ask me like, how's safety going to work over that? Because you don't want to do video calls while you're driving. Exactly right. So when you're driving, the video automatically turns off. And you'll have audio going on, just like a conference call. But the moment you stop and put it in park, you can have video turned on. >> Now, of course the whole hybrid work trend, we, seems like a long time ago but it doesn't, you know? And it's really changed the security dynamic as well, didn't it? >> It has, it has. >> I mean, immediately you had to go protect new endpoints. And those changes, I felt at the time, were permanent. And I think it's still the case, but there's an equilibrium now happening. People as they come back to the office, you see a number of companies are mandating back to work. Maybe the central offices, or the headquarters, were underfunded. So what's going on out there in terms of that balance? >> Well firstly, there's no unanimous consensus on the way that the future is going to be, except that it's going to be hybrid. And the reason I say that is some companies mandate two days a week, some companies mandate five days a week, some companies don't mandate at all. Some companies are completely remote. But whatever way you go, you want to make sure that regardless of where you're working from, people can have an inclusive experience. You know? And, when they have that experience, you want to be able to work from a managed device or an unmanaged device, from a corporate network or from a Starbucks, from on the road or stationary. And whenever you do any of those things, we want to make sure that security is always handled, and you don't have to worry about that. And so the way that we say it is the company that created the VPN, which is Cisco, is the one that's going to kill it. Because what we'll do is we'll make it simple enough so that you don't, you as a user, never have to worry about what connection you're going to use to dial in to what app. You will have one, seamless way to dial into any application, public application, private application, or directly to the internet. >> Yeah, I got a love, hate with my VPN. I mean, it's protecting me, but it's in the way a lot. >> It's going to be simple as ever. >> Do you have kids? >> I do, I have a 12 year old daughter. >> Okay, so not quite high school age yet. She will be shortly. >> No, but she's already, I'm not looking forward to high school days, because she has a very, very strong sense of debate and she wins 90% of the arguments. >> So when my kids were that age, I've got four kids, but the local high school banned Wikipedia, they can't use Wikipedia for research. Many colleges, I presume high schools as well, they're banning Chat GPT, can't use it. Now at the same time, I saw recently on Medium a Wharton school professor said he's mandating Chat GPT to teach his students how to prompt in progressively more sophisticated prompts, because the future is interacting with machines. You know, they say in five years we're all going to be interacting in some way, shape, or form with AI. Maybe we already are. What's the intersection between AI and security? >> So a couple very, very consequential things. So firstly on Chat GPT, the next generation skill is going to be to learn how to go out and have the right questions to ask, which is the prompt revolution that we see going on right now. But if you think about what's happening in security, and there's a few areas which are, firstly 3,500 hundred vendors in this space. On average, most companies have 50 to 70 vendors in security. Not a single vendor owns more than 10% of the market. You take out a couple vendors, no one owns more than 5%. Highly fractured market. That's a problem. Because it's untenable for companies to go out and manage 70 policy engines. And going out and making sure that there's no contention. So as you move forward, one of the things that Chat GPT will be really good for is it's fundamentally going to change user experiences, for how software gets built. Because rather than it being point and click, it's going to be I'm going to provide an instruction and it's going to tell me what to do in natural language. Imagine Dave, when you joined a company if someone said, hey give Dave all the permissions that he needs as a direct report to Chuck. And instantly you would get all of the permissions. And it would actually show up in a screen that says, do you approve? And if you hit approve, you're done. The interfaces of the future will get more natural language kind of dominated. The other area that you'll see is the sophistication of attacks and the surface area of attacks is increasing quite exponentially. And we no longer can handle this with human scale. You have to handle it in machine scale. So detecting breaches, making sure that you can effectively and quickly respond in real time to the breaches, and remediate those breaches, is all going to happen through AI and machine learning. >> So, I agree. I mean, just like Amazon turned the data center into an API, I think we're now going to be interfacing with technology through human language. >> That's right. >> I mean I think it's a really interesting point you're making. Now, from a security standpoint as well, I mean, the state of the art today in my email is be careful, this person's outside your organization. I'm like, yeah I know. So it's a good warning sign, but it's really not automated in any way. So two part question. One is, can AI help? You know, with the phishing, obviously it can, but the bad guys have AI too. >> Yeah. >> And they're probably going to be smarter than I am about using it. >> Yeah, and by the way, Talos is our kind of threat detection and response >> Yes. >> kind of engine. And, they had a great kind of piece that came out recently where they talked about this, where Chat GPT, there is going to be more sophistication of the folks that are the bad actors, the adversaries in using Chat GPT to have more sophisticated phishing attacks. But today it's not something that is fundamentally something that we can't handle just yet. But you still need to do the basic hygiene. That's more important. Over time, what you will see is attacks will get more bespoke. And in order, they'll get more sophisticated. And, you will need to have better mechanisms to know that this was actually not a human being writing that to you, but it was actually a machine pretending to be a human being writing something to you. And that you'll have to be more clever about it. >> Oh interesting. >> And so, you will see attacks get more bespoke and we'll have to get smarter and smarter about it. >> The other thing I wanted to ask you before we close is you're right on. I mean you take the top security vendors and they got a single digit market share. And it's like it's untenable for organizations, just far too many tools. We have a partner at ETR, they do quarterly survey research and one of the things they do is survey emerging technology companies. And when we look at in the security sector just the number of emerging technology companies that are focused on cybersecurity is as many as there are out there already. And so, there's got to be consolidation. Maybe that's through M & A. I mean, what do you think happens? Are company's going to go out of business? There's going to be a lot of M & A? You've seen a lot of companies go private. You know, the big PE companies are sucking up all these security companies and may be ready to spit 'em out and go back public. How do you see the landscape? You guys are obviously an inquisitive company. What are your thoughts on that? >> I think there will be a little bit of everything. But the biggest change that you'll see is a shift that's going to happen with an integrated platform, rather than point solution vendors. So what's going to happen is the market's going to consolidate towards very few, less than a half a dozen, integrated platforms. We believe Cisco is going to be one. Microsoft will be one. There'll be others over there. But these, this platform will essentially be able to provide a unified kind of policy engine across a multitude of different services to protect multiple different entities within the organization. And, what we found is that platform will also be something that'll provide, through APIs, the ability for third parties to be able to get their technology incorporated in, and their telemetry ingested. So we certainly intend to do that. We don't believe, we are not arrogant enough to think that every single new innovation will be built by us. When there's someone else who has built that, we want to make sure that we can ingest that telemetry as well, because the real enemy is not the competitor. The real enemy is the adversary. And we all have to get together, so that we can keep humanity safe. >> Do you think there's been enough collaboration in the industry? I mean- >> Jeetu: Not nearly enough. >> We've seen companies, security companies try to monetize private data before, instead of maybe sharing it with competitors. And so I think the industry can do better there. >> Well I think the industry can do better. And we have this concept called the security poverty line. And the security poverty line is the companies that fall below the security poverty line don't have either the influence or the resources or the know how to keep themselves safe. And when they go unsafe, everyone else that communicates with them also gets that exposure. So it is in our collective interest for all of us to make sure that we come together. And, even if Palo Alto might be a competitor of ours, we want to make sure that we invite them to say, let's make sure that we can actually exchange telemetry between our companies. And we'll continue to do that with as many companies that are out there, because actually that's better for the market, that's better for the world. >> The enemy of the enemy is my friend, kind of thing. >> That's right. >> Now, as it relates to, because you're right. I mean I, I see companies coming up, oh, we do IOT security. I'm like, okay, but what about cloud security? Do you that too? Oh no, that's somebody else. But, so that's another stove pipe. >> That's a huge, huge advantage of coming with someone like Cisco. Because we actually have the entire spectrum, and the broadest portfolio in the industry of anyone else. From the user, to the device, to the network, to the applications, we provide the entire end-to-end story for security, which then has the least amount of cracks that you can actually go out and penetrate through. The biggest challenges that happen in security is you've got way too many policy engines with way too much contention between the policies from these different systems. And eventually there's a collision course. Whereas with us, you've actually got a broad portfolio that operates as one platform. >> We were talking about the cloud guys earlier. You mentioned Microsoft. They're obviously a big competitor in the security space. >> Jeetu: But also a great partner. >> So that's right. To my opinion, the cloud has been awesome as a first line of defense if you will. But the shared responsibility model it's different for each cloud, right? So, do you feel that those guys are working together or will work together to actually improve? 'Cause I don't see that yet. >> Yeah so if you think about, this is where we feel like we have a structural advantage in this, because what does a company like Cisco become in the future? I think as the world goes multicloud and hybrid cloud, what'll end up happening is there needs to be a way, today all the CSPs provide everything from storage to computer network, to security, in their own stack. If we can abstract networking and security above them, so that we can acquire and steer any and all traffic with our service providers and steer it to any of those CSPs, and make sure that the security policy transcends those clouds, you would actually be able to have the public cloud economics without the public cloud lock-in. >> That's what we call super cloud Jeetu. It's securing the super cloud. >> Yeah. >> Hey, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me. >> Really appreciate you coming on our editorial program. >> Such a pleasure. >> All right, great to see you again. >> Cheers. >> All right, keep it right there. Dave Vellante with David Nicholson and Lisa Martin. We'll be back, right after this short break from MWC '23 live, in the Fira, in Barcelona. (bright music resumes) (music fades out)

>>President. >>Hello everyone and welcome to wien on 2021. My name is Dave Volonte and you're watching the cubes continuous coverage of the event. You know, VM is a company that made its mark riding the virtualization wave, but quite amazingly has continued to extend its product portfolio and catch the other major waves of the industry. Of course, we're talking about cloud backup. SaS data protection was one of the early players there making moves and containers. And this is the VM on power panel with me or Danny Allen, who is the Ceo and Senior vice president of product strategy at VM. Dave Russell is the vice President of enterprise Strategy, of course, said Vin and Rick Vanover, senior director of product strategy at VM. It's great to see you again. Welcome back to the cube. >>Good to be here. >>Well, it had to be here. >>Yeah, let's do it. >>Let's do this. So Danny, you know, we heard you kind of your keynotes and we saw the general sessions and uh sort of diving into the breakouts. But the thing that jumps out to me is this growth rate that you're on. Uh you know, many companies and we've seen this throughout the industry have really struggled, you know, moving from the traditional on prem model to an an A. R. R. Model. Uh they've had challenges doing so the, I mean, you're not a public company, but you're quite transparent and a lot of your numbers 25% a our our growth year of a year in the last quarter, You know, 400,000 plus customers. You're talking about huge numbers of downloads of backup and replication Danny. So what are your big takeaways from the last, You know, 6-12 months? I know it was a strange year obviously, but you guys just keep cranking. >>Yeah, so we're obviously hugely excited by this and it really is a confluence of various things. It's our, it's our partners, it's the channel. Um, it's our customers frankly that that guide us and give us direction on what to do. But I always focus in on the product because I, you know, we run product strategy here, this group and we're very focused on building good products and I would say there's three product areas that are on maximum thrust right now. One is in the data center. So we built a billion dollar business on being the very best in the data center for V sphere, hyper V, um, for Nutanix, HV and as we announced also with red hat virtualization. So data center obviously a huge thrust for us going forward. The second assess Office 3 65 is exploding. We already announced we're protecting 5.8 million users right now with being back up for Office 3 65 and there's a lot of room to grow there. There's 145 million daily users of Microsoft teams. So a lot of room to grow. And then the third areas cloud, we moved over 100 petabytes of data into the public cloud in Q one and there's a lot of opportunity there as well. So those three things are driving the growth, the data center SaAS and cloud >>Davis. I want to get your kind of former analyst perspective on this. Uh you know, I know, you know, it's kind of become cliche but you still got that D. N. A. And I'm gonna tap it. So when you think about and you were following beam, of course very closely during its ascendancy with virtualization. And back then you wouldn't just take your existing, you know, approaches to back up in your processes and just slap them on to virtualization. That that wouldn't have worked. You had to rethink your backup. And it seems like I want to ask you about cloud because people talk about lift and shift and what I hear from customers is, you know, if I just lift and shift to cloud, it's okay, but if I don't have a plan to change my operating model, you know, I don't get the real benefit out of it. And so I would think back up data protection, data management etcetera is a key part of that. So how are you thinking about cloud and the opportunity there? >>Yeah, that's a good point, David. You know, I think the key area right there is it's important to protect the workload of the environment. The way that that environment is naturally is best suited to be protected and also to interact in a way that the administrator doesn't have to rethink, doesn't have to change their process so early on. Um I think it was very successful because the interface is the work experience looked like what an active directory administrator was used to, seeing if they went to go and protect something with me where to go recover an item. Same is true in the cloud, You don't want to just take what's working well in one area and just force it, you know, around round peg into a square hole. This doesn't work well. So you've got to think about the environment and you've got to think about what's gonna be the real use case for getting access to this data. So you want to really tune things and there's obviously commonality involved, but from a workflow perspective, from an application perspective and then a delivery model perspective, Now, when it comes to hybrid cloud multi cloud, it's important to look like that you belong there, not a fish out of water. >>Well, so of course, Danny you were talking to talking about you guys have product first, Right? And so rick your your key product guy here. What's interesting to me is when you look at the history of the technology industry and disruption, it's it's so often that the the incumbent, which you knew now an incumbent, you know, you're not the startup anymore, but the incumbent has challenges riding these these new waves because you've got to serve the existing customer base, but you gotta ride the new momentum as well. So how rick do you approach that from a product standpoint? Because based on the numbers that we see it doesn't you seem to be winning in both the traditional business and the new business. So how do you adapt from a product standpoint? >>Well, Dave, that's a good question. And Danny set it up? Well, it's really the birth of the Wien platform and its relevance in the market. In my 11th year here at Wien, I've had all kinds of conversations. Right. You know, the perception was that, you know, this smb toy for one hyper Advisor those days are long gone. We can check the boxes across the data center and cloud and even cloud native apps. You know, one of the things that my team has done is invest heavily in both people and staff on kubernetes, which aligns to our casting acquisition, which was featured heavily here at V Mon. So I think that being able to have that complete platform conversation Dave has really given us incredible momentum but also credibility with the customers because more than ever, this fundamental promise of having data backed up and being able to drive a recovery for whatever may happen to data nowadays. You know, that's a real emotional, important thing for people and to be able to bring that kind of outcome across the data center, across the cloud, across changes in what they do kubernetes that's really aligned well to our success and you know, I love talking to customers now. It's a heck of a lot easier when you can say yes to so many things and get the technical win. So that kind of drives a lot of the momentum Dave, but it's really the platform. >>So let's talk about the future of it and I want all you guys to chime in here and Danny, you start up, How do you see it? I mean, I always say the last 10 years, the next 10 years ain't gonna be like the last 10 years whether it's in cloud or hybrid et cetera. But so how Danny do you see I. T. In the future of I. T. Where do you see VM fitting in, how does that inform your roadmap, your product strategy? Maybe you could kick that segment off? >>Yeah. I think of the kind of the two past decades that we've gone through starting back in 2000 we had a lot of digital services built for end users and it was built on physical infrastructure and that was fantastic. Obviously we could buy things online, we could order close we could order food, we we could do things interact with end users. The second era about a decade later was based on virtualization. Now that wasn't a benefit so much to the end user is a benefit to the business. The Y because you could put 10 servers on a single physical server and you could be a lot more flexible in terms of delivery. I really think this next era that we're going into is actually based on containers. That's why the cost of acquisition is so strategic to us. Because the unique thing about containers is they're designed for to be consumption friendly. You spin them up, you spin them down, you provision them, you d provisions and they're completely portable. You can move it >>from on >>premises if you're running open shift to e k s a k s G k E. And so I think the next big era that we're going to go through is this movement towards containerized infrastructure. Now, if you ask me who's running that, I still think there's going to be a data center operations team, platform ups is the way that I think about them who run that because who's going to take the call in the middle of the night. But it is interesting that we're going through this transformation and I think we're in the very early stages of this radical transformation to a more consumption based model. Dave. I don't know what you think about that. >>Yeah, I would say something pretty similar Danny. It sounds cliche day valenti, but I take everything back to digital transformation. And the reason I say that is to me, digital transformation is about improving customer intimacy and so that you can deliver goods and services that better resonate and you can deliver them in better time frame. So exactly what Danny said, you know, I think that the siloed approaches of the past where we built very hard in environments and we were willing to take a long time to stand those up and then we have very tight change control. I feel like 2020 sort of a metaphor for where the data center is going to throw all that out the window we're compiling today. We're shipping today and we're going to get experience today and we're going to refine it and do it again tomorrow. But that's the environment we live in. And to Danny's point why containers are so important. That notion of shift left meaning experience things earlier in the cycle. That is going to be the reality of the data center regardless of whether the data center is on prem hybrid cloud, multi cloud or for some of us potentially completely in the cloud. >>So rick when you think about some of your peeps like the backup admit right and how that role is changing in a big discussion in the economy now about the sort of skills gap we got all these jobs and and yet there's still all this unemployment now, you know the debate about the reasons why, but there's a there's a transition enrolls in terms of how people are using products and obviously containers brings that, what what are you seeing when you talk to like a guy called him your peeps? Yeah, it's >>an evolving conversation. Dave the audience, right. It has to be relevant. Uh you know, we were afforded good luxury in that data center wheelhouse that Danny mentioned. So virtualization platform storage, physical servers, that's a pretty good start. But in the software as a service wheelhouse, it's a different persona now, they used to talk to those types of people, there's a little bit of connection, but as we go farther to the cloud, native apps, kubernetes and some of the other SAAS platforms, it is absolutely an audience journey. So I've actually worked really hard on that in my team, right? Everything from what I would say, parachuting into a community, right? And you have to speak their language. Number one reason is just number one outcomes just be present. And if you're in these communities you can find these individuals, you can talk their language, you can resonate with their needs, right? So that's something uh you know, everything from Levin marketing strategy to the community strategy to even just seating products in the market, That's a recipe that beam does really well. So yeah, it's a moving target for sure. >>Dave you were talking about the cliche of digital transformation and I'll say this may be pre Covid, I really felt like it was a cliche, there was a lot of, you know, complacency, I'll call it, but then the force marks the digital change that uh and now we kind of understand if you're not a digital business, you're in trouble. Uh And so my question is how it relates to some of the trends that we've been talking about in terms of cloud containers, We've seen the SAs ification for the better part of a decade now, but specifically as it relates to migration, it's hard for customers to just migrate their application portfolio to the cloud. Uh It's hard to fund it. It takes a long time. It's complex. Um how do you see that cloud migration evolving? Maybe that's where hybrid comes in And again, I'm interested in how you guys think about it and how it affects your strategy. >>Yeah. Well it's a complex answer as you might imagine because 400,000 customers, we take the exact same code. The exact same ice so that I run on my laptop is the exact same being backup and replication image that a major bank protects almost 20,000 machines and a petabytes of data. And so what that means is that you have to look at things on a case by case basis for some of us continuing to operate proprietary systems on prem might be the best choice for a certain workload. But for many of us the Genie is kind of out of the bottle with 2020 we have to move faster. It's less about safety and a lot more about speed and favorable outcome. We'll fix it if it's broken but let's get going. So for organizations struggling with how to move to the cloud, believe it or not, backup and recovery is an excellent way to start to venture into that because you can start to move data backup ISm data movement engine. So we can start to see data there where it makes sense. But rick would be quick to point out we want to offer a safe return. We have instances of where people want to repatriate data back and having a portable data format is key to that Rick. >>Uh yeah, I had a conversation recently with an organization managing cloud sprawl. They decided to consolidate, we're going to use this cloud, so it was removing a presence from one cloud that starts with an A and migrating it to the other cloud that starts with an A. You know, So yeah, we've seen that need for portability repatriation on prem classic example going from on prem apps to software as a service models for critical apps. So data mobility is at the heart of VM and with all the different platforms, kubernetes comes into play as well. It's definitely aligning to the needs that we're seeing in the market for sure. >>So repatriation, I want to stay on that for a second because you're, you're an arms dealer, you don't care if they're in the cloud or on prem and I don't know, maybe you make more money in one or the other, but you're gonna ride whatever waves the market gives you so repatriation to me implies. Or maybe I'm just inferring that somebody's moved to the cloud and they feel like, wow, we've made a mistake, it was too fast, too expensive. It didn't work for us. So now we're gonna bring it back on prem. Is that what you're saying? Are you saying they actually want their data in both both places. As another layer of data protection Danny. I wonder if you could address that. What are you seeing? >>Well, one of the interesting things that we saw recently, Dave Russell actually did the survey on this is that customers will actually build their work laid loads in the cloud with the intent to bring it back on premises. And so that repatriation is real customers actually don't just accidentally fall into it, but they intend to do it. And the thing about being everyone says, hey, we're disrupting the market, we're helping you go through this transformation, we're helping you go forward. Actually take a slightly different view of this. The team gives them the confidence that they can move forward if they want to, but if they don't like it, then they can move back and so we give them the stability through this incredible pace, change of innovation. We're moving forward so so quickly, but we give them the ability to move forward if they want then to recover to repatriate if that's what they need to do in a very effective way. And Dave maybe you can touch on that study because I know that you talked to a lot of customers who do repatriate workloads after moving them to the cloud. >>Yeah, it's kind of funny Dave not in the analyst business right now, but thanks to Danny and our chief marketing Officer, we've got now half a dozen different research surveys that have either just completed or in flight, including the largest in the data protection industry's history. And so the survey that Danny alluded to, what we're finding is people are learning as they're going and in some cases what they thought would happen when they went to the cloud they did not experience. So the net kind of funny slide that we discovered when we asked people, what did you like most about going to the cloud and then what did you like least about going to the cloud? The two lists look very similar. So in some cases people said, oh, it was more stable. In other cases people said no, it was actually unstable. So rick I would suggest that that really depends on the practice that you bring to it. It's like moving from a smaller house to a larger house and hoping that it won't be messy again. Well if you don't change your habits, it's eventually going to end up in the same situation. >>Well, there's still door number three and that's data reuse and analytics. And I found a lot of organizations love the idea of at least manipulating data, running test f scenarios on yesterday's production, cloud workload completely removed from the cloud or even just analytics. I need this file. You know, those types of scenarios are very easy to do today with them. And you know, sometimes those repatriations, those portable recoveries, Sometimes people do that intentionally, but sometimes they have to do it. You know, whether it's fire, flood and blood and you know, oh, I was looks like today we're moving to the cloud because I've lost my data center. Right. Those are scenarios that, that portable data format really allows organizations to do that pretty easily with being >>it's a good discussion because to me it's not repatriation, it has this negative connotation, the zero sum game and it's not Danny what you describe and rick as well. It was kind of an experimentation, a purposeful. We're going to do it in the cloud because we can and it's cheap and low risk to spin it up and then we're gonna move it because we've always thought we're going to have it on prem. So, so you know, there is some zero sum game between the cloud and on prem. Clearly no question about it. But there's also this rising tide lifts all ship. I want to, I want to change the subject to something that's super important and and top of mind it's in the press and it ain't going away and that is cyber and specifically ransomware. I mean, since the solar winds hack and it seems to me that was a new milestone in the capabilities and aggressiveness of the adversary who is very well funded and quite capable. And what we're seeing is this idea of tucking into the supply chain of islands, so called island hopping. You're seeing malware that's self forming and takes different signatures very stealthy. And the big trend that we've seen in the last six months or so is that the bad guys will will lurk and they'll steal all kinds of sensitive data. And then when you have an incident response, they will punish you for responding. And they will say, okay, fine, you want to do that. We're going to hold you ransom. We're gonna encrypt your data. And oh, by the way, we stole this list of positive covid test results with names from your website and we're gonna release it if you don't pay their. I mean, it's like, so you have to be stealthy in your incident response. And this is a huge problem. We're talking about trillions of dollars lost each year in, in in cybercrime. And so, uh, you know, it's again, it's this uh the bad news is good news for companies like you. But how do you help customers deal with this problem? What are you seeing Danny? Maybe you can chime in and others who have thoughts? >>Well we're certainly seeing the rise of cyber like crazy right now and we've had a focus on this for a while because if you think about the last line of defense for customers, especially with ransomware, it is having secure backups. So whether it be, you know, hardened Linux repositories, but making sure that you can store the data, have it offline, have it, have it encrypted immutable. Those are things that we've been focused on for a long while. It's more than that. Um it's detection and monitoring of the environment, which is um certainly that we do with our monitoring tools and then also the secure recovery. The last thing that you want to do of course is bring your backups or bring your data back online only to be hit again. And so we've had a number of capabilities across our portfolio to help in all of these. But I think what's interesting is where it's going, if you think about unleashing a world where we're continuously delivering, I look at things like containers where you have continues delivery and I think every time you run that helm commander, every time you run that terra form command, wouldn't that be a great time to do a backup to capture your data so that you don't have an issue once it goes into production. So I think we're going towards a world where security and the protection against these cyber threats is built into the supply chain rather than doing it on just a time based uh, schedule. And I know rick you're pretty involved on the cyber side as well. Would you agree with that? I >>would. And you know, for organizations that are concerned about ransomware, you know, this is something that is taken very seriously and what Danny explained for those who are familiar with security, he kind of jumped around this, this universally acceptable framework in this cybersecurity framework there, our five functions that are a really good recipe on how you can go about this. And and my advice to IT professionals and decision makers across the board is to really align everything you do to that framework. Backup is a part of it. The security monitoring and user training. All those other things are are areas that that need to really follow that wheel of functions. And my little tip here and this is where I think we can introduce some differentiation is around detection and response. A lot of people think of backup product would shine in both protection and recovery, which it does being does, but especially on response and detection, you know, we have a lot of capabilities that become impact opportunities for organizations to be able to really provide successful outcomes through the other functions. So it's something we've worked on a lot. In fact we've covered here at the event. I'm pretty sure it will be on replay the updated white paper. All those other resources for different levels can definitely guide them through. >>So we follow up to the detection is what analytics that help you identify whatever lateral movement or people go in places they shouldn't go. I mean the hard part is is you know, the bad guys are living off the land, meaning they're using your own tooling to to hack you. So they're not it's not like they're introducing something new that shouldn't be there. They're they're just using making judo moves against you. So so specifically talk a little bit more about your your detection because that's critical. >>Sure. So I'll give you one example imagine we capture some data in the form of a backup. Now we have an existing advice that says, you know what Don't put your backup infrastructure with internet connectivity. Use explicit minimal permissions. And those three things right there and keep it up to date. Those four things right there will really hedge off a lot of the different threat vectors to the back of data, couple that with some of the mutability offline or air gapped capabilities that Danny mentioned and you have an additional level of resiliency that can really ensure that you can drive recovery from an analytic standpoint. We have an api that allows organizations to look into the backup data. Do more aggressive scanning without any exclusions with different tools on a flat file system. You know, the threats can't jump around in memory couple that with secure restore. When you reintroduce things into the environment From a recovery standpoint, you don't want to reintroduce threats. So there's protections, there's there's confidence building steps along the way with them and these are all generally available technologies. So again, I got this white paper, I think we're up to 50 pages now, but it's a very thorough that goes through a couple of those scenarios. But you know, it gets the uh, it gets quickly into things that you wouldn't expect from a backup product. >>Please send me a copy if you, if you don't mind. I this is a huge problem and you guys are global company. I admittedly have a bit of a US bias, but I was interviewing robert Gates one time the former defense secretary and we're talking about cyber war and I said, don't we have the best cyber, can't we let go on the offense? He goes, yeah, we can, but we got the most to lose. So this is really a huge problem for organizations. All right, guys, last question I gotta ask you. So what's life like under, under inside capital of the private equity? What's changed? What's, what's the same? Uh, do you hear from our good friend ratner at all? Give us the update there. >>Yes. Oh, absolutely fantastic. You know, it's interesting. So obviously acquired by insight partners in February of 2020, right, when the pandemic was hitting, but they essentially said light the fuse, keep the engine's going. And we've certainly been doing that. They haven't held us back. We've been hiring like crazy. We're up to, I don't know what the count is now, I think 4600 employees, but um, you know, people think of private equity and they think of cost optimizations and, and optimizing the business, That's not the case here. This is a growth opportunity and it's a growth opportunity simply because of the technology opportunity in front of us to keep, keep the engine's going. So we hear from right near, you know, on and off. But the new executive team at VM is very passionate about driving the success in the industry, keeping abreast of all the technology changes. It's been fantastic. Nothing but good things to say. >>Yes, insight inside partners, their players, we watched them watch their moves and so it's, you know, I heard Bill McDermott, the ceo of service now the other day talking about he called himself the rule of 60 where, you know, I always thought it was even plus growth, you know, add that up. And that's what he was talking about free cash flow. He's sort of changing the definition a little bit but but so what are you guys optimizing for you optimizing for growth? Are you optimising for Alberta? You optimizing for free cash flow? I mean you can't do All three. Right. What how do you think about that? >>Well, we're definitely optimizing for growth. No question. And one of the things that we've actually done in the past 12 months, 18 months is beginning to focus on annual recurring revenue. You see this in our statements, I know we're not public but we talk about the growth in A. R. R. So we're certainly focused on that growth in the annual recovering revenue and that that's really what we tracked too. And it aligns well with the cloud. If you look at the areas where we're investing in cloud native and the cloud and SAAS applications, it's very clear that that recurring revenue model is beneficial. Now We've been lucky, I think we're 13 straight quarters of double-digit growth. And and obviously they don't want to see that dip. They want to see that that growth continue. But we are optimizing on the growth trajectory. >>Okay. And you see you clearly have a 25% growth last quarter in A. R. R. Uh If I recall correctly, the number was evaluation was $5 billion last january. So obviously then, given that strategy, Dave Russell, that says that your tam is a lot bigger than just the traditional backup world. So how do you think about tam? I'll we'll close there >>and uh yeah, I think you look at a couple of different ways. So just in the backup recovery space or backup in replication to paying which one you want to use? You've got a large market there in excess of $8 billion $1 billion dollar ongoing enterprise. Now, if you look at recent i. D. C. Numbers, we grew and I got my handy HP calculator. I like to make sure I got this right. We grew 44.88 times faster than the market average year over year. So let's call that 45 times faster and backup. There's billions more to be made in traditional backup and recovery. However, go back to what we've been talking around digital transformation Danny talking about containers in the environment, deployment models, changing at the heart of backup and recovery where a data capture data management, data movement engine. We envision being able to do that not only for availability but to be able to drive the business board to be able to drive economies of scale faster for our organizations that we serve. I think the trick is continuing to do more of the same Danny mentioned, he knows the view's got lit. We haven't stopped doing anything. In fact, Danny, I think we're doing like 10 times more of everything that we used to be doing prior to the pandemic. >>All right, Danny will give you the last word, bring it home. >>So our goal has always been to be the most trusted provider of backup solutions that deliver modern data protection. And I think folks have seen at demon this year that we're very focused on that modern data protection. Yes, we want to be the best in the data center but we also want to be the best in the next generation, the next generation of I. T. So whether it be sas whether it be cloud VM is very committed to making sure that our customers have the confidence that they need to move forward through this digital transformation era. >>Guys, I miss flying. I mean, I don't miss flying, but I miss hanging with you all. We'll see you. Uh, for sure. Vim on 2022 will be belly to belly, but thanks so much for coming on the the virtual edition and thanks for having us. >>Thank you. >>All right. And thank you for watching everybody. This keeps continuous coverage of the mon 21. The virtual edition. Keep it right there for more great coverage. >>Mm

(upbeat music) >> Welcome everybody to VeeamON 2021 you're watching theCUBE. My name is Dave Villante. You know in 2020 cyber adversaries they seize the opportunity to really up their game and target workers from home and digital supply chains. It's become increasingly clear to observers that we're entering a new era of cyber threats where infiltrating companies via so-called Island Hopping and stealthily living off the land meaning they're using your own tools and infrastructure to steal your data. So they're not signaling with new tools that they're in there. It's becoming the norm for sophisticated hacks. Moreover, these well-funded and really sophisticated criminals and nation States are aggressively retaliating against incident responses. In other words, when you go to fix the problem they're not leaving the premises they're rather they're tightening the vice on victims by holding your data ransom and threatening to release previously ex filtrated and brand damaging information to the public. What a climate in which we live today. And with me to talk about these concerning trends and what you can do about it as Gil Vega, the CISO of Veeam Gil great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Great to see you, Dave. Thanks for having me. >> Yeah. So, you know, you're hearing my intro. It's probably understating the threat. You are a Veeam's first CISO. So how do you see the landscape right now? >> That's right. Yeah. And I've been with the company for just over a year now, but my background is in financial services and spent a lot of time managing cybersecurity programs at the classified level in Washington DC. So I've gleaned a lot of scar tissue from lots of sophisticated attacks and responses. But today I think what we're seeing is really a one-upmanship by a sophisticated potentially nation state sponsored adversaries, this idea of imprisoning your data and charging you to release it is it's quite frightening. And as we've seen in the news recently it can have devastating impacts not only for the economy, but for businesses. Look at the gas lines in the Northeast right now because of the quality of a pipeline, a ransomware attack. I just, the government just released an executive order this morning, that hopes to address some of the some of the nation's unpreparedness for these sophisticated attacks. And I think it's time. And I think everyone's excited about the opportunity to really apply a whole of government approach, to helping critical infrastructure to helping and partnering with private sector and imposing some risks, frankly, on some of the folks that are engaged in attacking our country. >> A number of years ago, I often tell this story. I had the pleasure of interviewing Robert Gates the former Defense Secretary. And it was a while ago we were talking about cyber and he sits on a number of boards. And we were talking about how it's a board level issue. And, and we're talking about cyber crime and the like and nation States. And I said, well, wait, cyber warfare, even. And I said, "But don't we have the best cyber tech. I mean, can't we go on the offense?" And he goes, "Yeah, we do. And we can, but we have more to lose." And to your point about critical infrastructure, it's not just like, okay, we have the most powerful weapons. It's really we have the most valuable infrastructure and a lot to lose. So it's really a tricky game. And this notion of having to be stealthy in your incident response is relatively new. Isn't it? >> It is. It is. And you know, there are, you mentioned that and I was surprised you mentioned because a lot of people really don't talk about it as you're going into your response your adversaries are watching or watching your every move. You have to assume in these days of perpetual state of compromise in your environments, which means that your adversaries have access to your environment to the point that they're watching your incident responders communicate with one another and they're countering your moves. So it's sort of a perverse spin on the old mutually assured destruction paradigm that you mentioned the United States has the world's largest economy. And quite frankly the world's most vulnerable, critical infrastructure. And I would concur with Director Gates or Secretary Gates rather it is assessment that we've got to be awfully careful and measured in our approach to imposing risks. I think the government has worked for many years on defining red lines. And I think this latest attack on the colonial pipeline affecting the economy and people's lives and potentially putting people's lives at risk is towing also the close to that red line. And I'm interested to see where this goes. I'm interested to see if this triggers even a, you know a new phase of cyber warfare, retaliation, you know proactive defense by the National Security Community of the United States government. Be interesting to see how this plays out. >> Yeah, you're absolutely right though. You've got this sort of asymmetric dynamic now which is unique for the United States as soon as strongest defense in the world. And I wanted to get it to ransomware a bit. And specifically this notion of ransomware as a service it's really concerning where criminals can actually outsource the hack as a service and the bad guys will set up, you know, on the dark web they'll have, you know, help desks and phone lines. They'll do the negotiations. I mean, this is a really concerning trend. And obviously Veeam plays a role here. I'm wondering as a, as a SecOps pro what should we be doing about this? >> Yeah, you mentioned ransomware as a service, whereas RWS it's an incredibly pernicious problem perpetrated by sophisticated folks who may or may not have nation state support or alliances. I think at a minimum certain governments are looking the other way as it relates to these criminal activities. But with ransomware as a service, you're essentially having very sophisticated folks create very complex ransomware code and distributed to people who are willing to pay for it. And oftentimes take a part of the ransom as their payment. The, issue with obviously ransomware is you know the age old question, are you going to pay a ransom or are you not going to pay a ransom? The FBI says, don't do it. It only encourages additional attacks. The Treasury Department put out some guidance earlier earlier in the year, advising companies that they could be subject to civil or criminal penalties. If they pay a ransom and the ransom goes to a sanction density. So there's danger on all sides. >> Wow okay. But so, and then the other thing is this infiltrating via digital supply chains I call it Island Hopping and the like, we saw that with the solar winds hack and the scary part is, you know different malware is coming in and self forming and creating different signatures. Not only is it very difficult to detect, but remediating, you know, one, you know combined self formed malware it doesn't necessarily take care of the others. And so, you know, you've got this sort of organic virus, like thing, you know, create mutating and that's something that's certainly relatively new to me in terms of its prevalence your thoughts on that and how to do it. >> Yeah, exactly right. You know, the advent of the polymorphic code that changes the implementation of advanced artificial intelligence and some of this malware is making our job increasingly difficult which is why I believe firmly. You've got to focus on the fundamentals and I think the best answers for protecting against sophisticated polymorphic code is,are found in the NIST cybersecurity framework. And I encourage everyone to really take a close look at implementing that cybersecurity framework across their environments, much like we've done here, here at Veeam implementing technologies around Zero Trust again assuming a perpetual state of compromise and not trusting any transaction in your environment is the key to combating this kind of attack. >> Well, and you know, as you mentioned, Zero Trust Zero Trust used to be a buzzword. Now it's like become a mandate. And you know, it's funny. I mean, in a way I feel like the crypto guys I know there's a lot of fraud in crypto, but but anybody who's ever traded crypto it's like getting into Fort Knox. I mean, you got to know your customer and you've got to do a little transaction. I mean, it's really quite sophisticated in terms of the how they are applying cybersecurity and you know, most even your bank isn't that intense. And so those kinds of practices, even though they're a bit of a pain in the neck, I mean it's worth the extra effort. I wonder if you could talk about some of the best practices that you're seeing how you're advising your clients in your ecosystem and the role that Veeam can play in helping here. >> Yeah, absolutely. As I mentioned so many recommendations and I think the thing to remember here so we don't overwhelm our small and medium sized businesses that have limited resources in this area is to remind them that it's a journey, right? It's not a destination that they can continually improve and focus on the fundamentals. As I mentioned, things like multi-factor authentication you know, a higher level topic might be micro-segmentation breaking up your environment into manageable components that you can monitor a real time. Real time monitoring is one of the key components to implementing Zero Trust architecture and knowing exactly what good looks like in your environment in a situation where you've got real-time monitoring you can detect the anomalies, the things that shouldn't be happening in your environment and to spin up your response teams, to focus and better understand what that is. I've always been a proponent of identity and access management controls and a key focus. We've heard it in this industry for 25 years is enforcing the concept of least privilege, making sure that your privileged users have access to the things they need and only the things that they need. And then of course, data immutability making sure that your data is stored in backups that verifiably has not been changed. And I think this is where Veeam comes into the equation where our products provide a lot of these very easily configured ransomware protections around data and your ability to the ability to instantly back up things like Office 365 emails, you know support for AWS and Azure. Your data can be quickly restored in the event that an attacker is able to in prison that with encryption and ransom demands. >> Well, and so you've certainly seen in the CISOs that I've talked to that they've had to obviously shift their priorities, thanks to the force march to digital, thanks to COVID, but Identity access management, end point security cloud security kind of overnight, you know, Zero Trust. We talked about that and you could see that in some of these, you know, high flying security stocks, Okta Zscaler, CrowdStrike, they exploded. And so what's in these many of these changes seem to be permanent sort of you're I guess, deeper down in the stack if you will, but you, you compliment these toolings with obviously the data protection approach the ransomware, the cloud data protection, air gaps, immutability. Maybe you could talk about how you fit in with the broader, you know, spate of tools. I mean, your, my eyes bleed when you look at all the security companies that are out there. >> Yeah for sure. You know, I'm just going to take it right back to the NIST cybersecurity framework and the five domains that you really need to focus on. Identify, protect, detect, respond, and recover, you know and until recently security practitioners and companies have really focused on on the protect, identify and protect, right and defend rather where they're focused on building, you know, moats and castles and making sure that they've got this, you know hard exterior to defend against attacks. I think there's been a shift over the past couple of years where companies have recognized that the focus needs to be on and respond and recover activities, right? Assuming that people are going to breach or near breach, your entities is a safe way to think about this and building up capabilities to detect those breaches and respond effectively to those breaches are what's key in implementing a successful cybersecurity program where Veeam fits into this since with our suite of products that that can help you through the recovery process, right? That last domain of the NIST cybersecurity framework it'll allow you to instantaneously. As I mentioned before, restore data in the event of a catastrophic breach. And I think it provides companies with the assurances that while they're protecting and building those Zero Trust components into their environments to protect against these pernicious and well-resourced adversaries there's the opportunity for them to recover very quickly using the VM suite of tools? >> Well, I see, I think there's an interesting dynamic here. You're pointing out Gil. There's not no longer is it that, you know, build a moat the Queen's leaving her castle. I always say, you know there is no hardened perimeter anymore. And so you've seen, you know, the shift obviously from hardware based firewalls and you I mentioned those other companies that are doing great but to me, it's all about these layers and response is a big in recovery is a huge part of that. So I'm seeing increasingly companies like Veeam is a critical part of that, that security cyber data protection, you know, ecosystem. I mean, to me it's just as important as the frontline pieces of even identity. And so you see those markets exploding. I think it's, there's a latent value that's building in companies like Veeam that are a key part of those that data protection layer you think about you know, defense strategies. It's not just you, the frontline it's maybe it's airstrikes, maybe it's, you know, C etcetera. And I see that this market is actually a huge opportunity for for organizations like yours. >> I think you're right. And I think the proof is in, you know in the pudding, in terms of how this company has grown and what we've delivered in version 11 of our suite, including, you know features like continuous data protection, we talked about that reliable ransomware protection support for AWS S3 Glacier and Azure archive the expanded incident recovery, and then support for disaster recovery and backup as a service. You know, what I found most interesting in my year here at Veeam is just how much our administrators the administrators in our company and our customers companies that are managing backups absolutely love our products that ease of use the instant backup capabilities and the support they receive from Veeam. It's almost cultish in terms of how our customers are using these products to defend themselves in today's pretty intense cyber threat environment. >> Well, and you talked about the NIST framework, and again big part of that is recovery, because we talked about earlier about, do you pay the ransom or not? Well, to the extent that I can actually recover from having all my data encrypted then I've got obviously a lot more leverage and in many ways, I mean, let's face it. We all know that it's not a matter of if it's, when you get infiltrated. And so to the extent that I can actually have systems that allow me to recover, I'm now in a much much stronger position in many respects, you know and CISOs again, will tell you this that's where we're shifting our investments >> Right. And you've got to do all of them. It's not just there's no silver bullet, but but that seems to me to be just a a misunderstood and undervalued part of the equation. And I think there's tremendous upside there for companies like yours. >> I think you're right. I think what I'll just add to that is the power of immutability, right? Just verifiably ensuring that your data has not changed because oftentimes you'll have attackers in these low and slow live off the land types of attacks change your data and affect its integrity with the Veeam suite of tools. You're able to provide for immutable or unchanged verifiable data and your backup strategy which is really the first step to recovery after a significant event. >> And that's key because a lot of times the hackers would go right after the backup Corpus you know, they'll sometimes start there is that all the data, you know, but if you can make that immutable and again, it, you know there's best practices there too, because, you know if you're not paying the cloud service for that immutability, if you stop paying then you lose that. So you have to be very careful about, you know how you know, who has access to that and you know what the policies are there, but again, you know you can put in, you know so a lot of this, as you know, is people in process. It's not just tech, so I'll give you the last word. I know you got to jump, but really appreciate.. >> Yeah, sure. >> You know, the only, the only thing that we didn't mention is user awareness and education. I think that is sort of the umbrella key focus principle for any successful cybersecurity program making sure your people understand, you know how to deal with phishing emails. You know, ransomware is a huge threat of our time at 90% of ransomware malware is delivered by phishing. So prepare your workforce to deal with phishing emails. And I think you'll save yourself quite a few headaches. >> It's great advice. I'm glad you mentioned that because because bad user behavior or maybe uninformed user behaviors is the more fair way to say it. It will trump good security every time. Gil, thanks so much for coming to the CUBE and and keep fighting the fight. Best of luck going forward. >> Great. Thank you, Dave. >> All right. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Villante for the CUBEs continuous coverage VeeamON 2021, the virtual edition. We will be right back. (upbeat music)