>> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering VMworld 2018. Brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, we're here at VMworld 2018. You're watching theCUBE. Two sets, three days, over 95 guests. I'm Stu Miniman, my cohost is Joep Piscaer, and we've got a little bit of news to talk about. Lots of announcements made at the show. One of them is that VMware has purchased the intent to acquire Boston-based CloudHealth Technologies and I am thrilled to have back on the program, I've had him in my Boston-area studio and seen at lots of shows, Joe Kinsella, who's the founder and CTO of CloudHealth. >> Yes, you got it. Good to see you again, Stu, good to see you, Joep. >> Absolutely. >> Just to get it out of the way, the Boston Business Journal says for about 500 million. I know you can't comment on the dollars, but this is a big deal. 200 person company, as I said, Boston-based, right down the road from us. Heck, I'll stop at, your new headquarters is opening on Thursday, which I'm stopping at on the way back from the airport. Congratulations, first of all, and tell us what's the feeling like of your firm? >> It is exciting. We certainly weren't looking to get acquired, so as you know, we raised a fairly large D round last year and we were focused on building a big public company and what we found along the way of talking about a partnership with VMware was it was just a lot of synergy. Both vision, strategy, as well as cultural synergies. I think somewhere along the way we realized this made a lot of sense, so it is a big deal, and we're very excited about it. >> Awesome, Joe, one thing I like, I see you and your company at cloud shows. >> Yes. >> This is where we have, one of the things that excited me this week is we talk about, I'm a networking guy, talk about the networking, they're talking about multi-cloud the way that Nicira was pre-acquisition. VMware talking a lot more about multi-cloud. They had Amazon up on stage, and I think the acquisition of CloudHealth Technologies is, how does VMware become more of a cloud first? For people that don't know CloudHealth Technology, tell us a little about the origin, your founding, and where you play in the ecosystem? How much of a part is VMware today versus everything else? >> Without a doubt. I founded the company six years ago and it was, I was an early pioneer in the public clouds and the 2010-2011 timeframe I was building out large-scale public cloud infrastructure. Sounds a lot less impressive when I give you the numbers now, but then it was very impressive, and in the process of doing that just realized the incredible complexity that you had to confront to actually be successful in the public cloud. Both complexity of deploying and managing efficiently, that infrastructure, but also the complexity of all the tools that surround that management. So I set out with CloudHealth to build a single SaaS platform that customers could use to, what today you might call build out a cloud center of excellence, is kind of the terminology. Which is to have one central platform where you can centralize and distribute cost management, security compliance as well as proactive governance. All the way to integrating back into your back office and your service desk and your incident management. Make the cloud just part of how you deliver your business services. That was the journey six years ago, and it's been a tremendous journey to-date. >> You were definitely a pioneer in this, so congrats what you done. Cause I remember six years ago, come on, cloud was simple, I swipe a credit card and we'll just do this and everything. Now, everybody kind of understands not only cloud but especially multi-cloud, getting my arms around how I manage all this environment. Maybe touch on how does multi-cloud fit into this whole discussion and what does CloudHealth do with VMware today versus everything else? >> When I started the company, multi-cloud was part of the vision, but let's be honest, there weren't a lot of companies really doing multi-cloud. Usually, at best, especially in the enterprise, if an enterprise was even doing cloud they were choosing a single cloud provider. They really weren't trying to actually have multiple providers. I think what's happened is in the last 24 months is enterprises went from being a single cloud to pervasive multi-cloud, is what I call it, which is their portfolio now includes dozens of SaaS products, it includes multiple public cloud providers, it includes multiple private cloud providers, and it's just a very complex heterogeneous portfolio they're managing. We were built for that. It's finally come true and I think what it does is if you think what you need to be successful in that environment, if you're going to build out a cloud center of excellence across a pervasively heterogeneous environment, you need a single platform that does that for you. Today, our product supports Amazon, Google, Azure, and it also supports VMware, so it integrates directly into vSphere, does cost management, does inventory, visibility, as well as migration recommendations to and from multiple different public clouds. It's a great synergy between what it is that VMware does across its rich, robust portfolio and CloudHealth. >> Talk a little about the new possibilities you're now opening up, being acquired by VMware. What does that mean for that multi-cloud strategy? >> I think Pat touched on it in his keynote, and I thought he did a masterful job of describing how CloudHealth the brand will be kind of a core brand of VMware and this will be a centerpiece property across integrating across various different properties across their SaaS portfolio. But I also think VMware's very aware that there's a lot of choices that customers want. They may want to choose different products for log managing, configuration management, for application performance management, and I think we're going to continue to provide that choice to customers so that it won't be just a VMware-centric product. But at the same time, you look at the richnesses of VMware portfolio, which is, you look at what they do on-premise and you look at what they do around cost management inside the data center. You look at VMware on AWS as an offering. There's just huge potential synergies between what we do and how we can extend our value proposition into those areas much faster as part of VMware. As the founder of the company, what excited me about this was this was not taking me away from my vision, it was an opportunity to accelerate my vision, which is really what kind of got me there to this idea that we would be acquired. >> How do you think your product will help VMware, for instance in the VMware cloud on AWS. Do you think you'll integrate on that level to help VMware accelerate their proposition as well? >> Yes, I believe, I'm actually very excited about VMware and AWS because I think we all know that VMware's been optimizing its stack for so many years. There's incredible efficiencies that have been built in to it that I would like to bring up to a business perspective so that our customers can understand them and take advantage of them in an easier way. I think there's great potential there. I probably don't want to get over my skies too far here on this one, but I do think it's one of the things you'll see early post-close of this deal. >> Joe, I think the timing's really good. If this acquisition had happened two years ago, we'd be talking about vCloud Air. My joke would be to say when does the update come that says all migration should push you to VMware at 99.8% of the time? (Joep and Joe laughing) VMware, it's not only AWS. We saw the VMware presence at the Google show. >> Yeah. >> You're going to do Google Cloud Show and they're trying to position themselves more in this multi-cloud world, which is where your company sits. Joe, what advice do you give to companies that, software companies out there, how do they help customers in this multi-cloud work? It's a big environment. You help with a bunch of things, but there's licensing, there's all sorts of variability out there. I say it's this giant elephant there and you might have a main course of it, but there's lots of partners you need to work with and customers have the paradox of choice out there, so how do you as a software company be successful in this space? >> I think, myself as a software company or as our customers? >> What advice to you give to your peers out there and if you were giving Pat advice as to how do we be even more successful as a multi-cloud player? >> I think their strategy is very mature. That was one of the things that got me excited about it, which is, I think there was a time at which I think companies were very territorial about how they approached the pervasive heterogeneity that we're entering now, and I think being open in the way that they are, that all of the properties that customers may choose may not be a single vendor. There's going to be lots of different vendors and lots of different choices and freedom of choice, I think, is kind of one of the fundamental tenants of a successful strategy at this point in time. I would just highly encourage that for everyone which is I think the old world is the old world, now. We've entered a new frontier, we have to think differently, we have to act differently. I think what I really love about what Pat's doing is he's harnessing the DNA and the strength of VMware, which is just, they've been a tremendous provider of great software for two decades and kind of bringing it into the next frontier of cloud. I think they've got a lot to bring that we have not seen yet. That we're going to see over the next few years. I just hope to be a part of that. >> You mentioned the new frontier. VMware's still somewhere in between the old frontier and the new, so one of the problems we've seen in the past is VMware and its relation with the service provider world. What do you think you'll add to that mix to help service providers maybe move from the old world into that new world as well? >> Now, Joep, is that, that feels like a fastball down the middle. (all laughing) I just have to tell you. The relationship with VMware started 18 months ago. It started with an SVP at VMware and was all about partners. One of the things you might not see externally from CloudHealth is that there's really two products in CloudHealth. There's our direct product that we deliver to enterprises and SMB, and then there's a separate product that we sell to service providers and it enables them to deliver managed services to their customers on top of the cloud. We built it in a way where the products are really one product that actually are sold as two separate products. I think what we're going to bring is a real strong opportunity for partners across VMware, and that's why the opportunity, the business relationship started as a potential partnership around partners and eventually evolved into where we're at today. We're excited for that. I tell people that the cloud is the single greatest threat and the single greatest opportunity for partners. The difference between which one you're going to experience over the next few years is whether or not you can figure out how to harness the disruptive potential of the cloud. >> Sounds like I've got a question for Ajay Patel tomorrow when I interview him towards the end of the show. (laughing) Because yeah, it's service providers there. I know you can't talk a lot, but give us roadmap. What sort of things, is it like, I see NSX being pervasive. Are there integrations today? Do you have visibility in CloudHealth? Is that something from the networking side that you do or would tie into? I think back, I've been in this long enough, when EMC bought VMware it was here's all the cool stuff we could do and I was in engineering like oh my God, it's going to take us five or six years to do most of this stuff. >> Yes. >> It got done, but there's long, hard engineering work. 18 months, what can you talk about that's been done and give us a little bit of what should we be looking for? >> NSX is tremendous offering and I think what you see is, I'm really looking at this as more like tier one, two, and three integrations. Tier one I think you're going to see more around the cloud properties. Probably things like VMware on AWS and you'll see the SaaS products such as Wavefront and things like that. I think there's a natural extension and a natural movement and a natural value proposition we can bring on top of those. I think tier two you'll probably see a lot more hybrid, where you're going to see us kind of take advantage of that rich portfolio in VMware and extend it and add value on top of it to our customers. I think tier 3 I'll leave quiet for now, but I think there's some really amazing potential of what it is that we can do together based on what I'm seeing exist in VMware and things that maybe are being built that are not yet public. I think there's some really great potential of what we can bring to the market around how they can manage their multi-cloud portfolios in to the future. >> Joe, last thing I wanted to ask you. Boston-based company. VMware had a strong presence in the Boston area. I know a lot of people near Cambridge facility but talk about the tech scene in Boston, being a founder, you got a new headquarters, getting acquired, I'm a bit of a homer, supporting people so that I don't necessarily have to travel across the country or across the world. Give us your viewpoint on the Boston area these days. >> You know this, which is it is incredibly vibrant, what's happening in Boston, which is the businesses being built, the entrepreneurs that are there, the entire ecosystem is working at a pace I have not seen in over two decades. They're building real meaningful businesses. When you actually lift up the cover and you look at what these entrepreneurs are building, it's going to be an important tech scene for decades to come based on just what I'm seeing happen today. I look today and a lot of people like to give the credit to the person who founded the company. There's thousands of people who touched this business. Just including the tremendous effort from every person who joined this company. There's been people like yourself and people who've added value in many, countless ways along the way. It all came, primarily, from a Boston community that was there to support me and my company as we grew up in the Boston tech scene. I've been blessed to actually be surrounded by great people in one of the best cities in the world. >> Joe, congratulations again. >> Thank you. >> If you don't know, they even have superhero stickers of this guy that they give out at conferences. (laughing) >> Joe Kinsella, CloudHealth Technologies, congratulations to you. >> Thank you. >> I'm looking forward to seeing the grand opening back in Boston when I fly back after the show. For you Piscaer, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks so much for joining us on theCUBE. Be back with lots more. >> Thank you. (electronic tones)

(upbeat techno music) >> Live, from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering VMworld 2018, brought to you by VMware and it's eco-system partners. >> Hello everyone and welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage day three of three days of coverage, VMworld 2018 here in Las Vegas, CUBE wall-to-wall coverage, 94 interviews, two sets, our ninth year covering VMworld, I'm John Furrier with my co-host Stuart Miniman on this segment, our next guest is Milin Desai, who is the Vice President and general manager of Cloud Services at VMware, formerly driving the NSX business, been there for multiple years, eight years. Great to see you, thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Pleasure to be here. >> So you've seen the evolution, you've been there, you've been in the boat. NSX, on a good path, doing really well, cloud services, very clear visibility on what strategy is. >> Mm-hmm. >> Private and public, hybrid multi-cloud, validated by the leader AWS and Andy Jassy, again for the second year. So pretty clear visibility at least on what the landscape looks like. >> Mm-hmm. Multiple clouds, software driving all the value. What's the cloud services piece that you're running now? Take a minute to explain what the landscape looks like, what's your charter, what are you trying to do, and what's happening with news and announcements? >> Sure, so about two years back we started on this journey around cloud services. And the premise was that, increasingly, there are two trends taking place which is; SaaS delivered experiences for on prem. So how can we deliver SaaS experiences on prem? As well as the partnership with, you know AWS for VMware cloud on AWS. So the two things started coming together both in terms of a product opportunity, which is VMware cloud AWS. But overall delivering our capabilities as SaaS, both hybrid as well as in the public clouds. So cloud services is a portfolio that delivers VMware services from management, to security, to operations, as SaaS services to the private cloud as well as to the public cloud. >> Tom Corn, the Senior Vice President of general security projects, was just on theCUBE today as well before you came on. He said, I asked him for a prediction and I'll ask you at the end too, for a 2019 prediction, but he said, "I see the conversation starting to be "security as a service someday," and he's kind of like connecting the dots a bit. But that proves the point it's a SAS business model. The services need to be consumable and scalable. This is a key design criteria and a product guiding principal right, for you guys? >> Yes, So increasingly SaaS makes it easy. The value benefits on that is I don't need to operate, it just works and I can get the value out of what we are delivering. And that's really what's driving the adoption of SaaS. It's easy to use, it gets you to outcomes quicker, and I don't need to worry about the management elements of that and so whether it's you take our updates to cloud management, we announced Cloud Assembly, Service Broker, and Code Stream, all delivered as SaaS to our hybrid infrastructure as well as if you want to deploy workloads in AWS or Azure, same thing. AppDefense, Tom's product, is delivered as a SaaS service. VMC on AWS is a managed SaaS service. So you're seeing that come together as VMware. The idea is can we bring that experience on prem as well as in the hybrid cloud? >> Yeah, Milin really interesting topic because often what gets lost when we're talking about multi cloud is what really matters, is applications and the data that sits on top of it. Maybe walk through a little bit, my on premises vs my SASified stuff vs the cloud native and PKS. How much of the business is driven from all of these pieces? >> So the majority of our business right now, is on premise software. Where customers are building and operating the infrastructure with our software. Now the first evolution into SAS was actually with our service providers, who are using the subscription model to deliver VMware as a service to their end customers. And then the second iteration of that is VMware cloud on AWS, which is growing really well. Both in terms of adoption as well of number of customers and now you are seeing the next evolution. So I would say from a numbers standpoint it's low, but in terms of number of customers adopting it, that number is high. So whether it's cloud operations with Wavefront or the whole automations suite that was launched, AppDefense. We are starting to see the shift to SAS but I would say the majority of our customers are on on prem software with VMware cloud foundation which includes NSX, and a visualized management portfolio which has been driving the majority of the revenue. >> I got to ask you about NSX relative to the cloud services because one of the things we've been pontificating and analyzing is how multi cloud is really going to work and we always try to compare and contrast to networking because Stu and I love networking and storage and some of the infrastructure stuff but if you go back into the evolution of TCPIP and what that did for the industry and Gelsinger likes to talk about this too, is NSX the kind of enabler that TCPIP was? TCP and then you had IP, created a lot of value, in inter-networking. What does the customer challenge look like when you're doing multi-cloud? It's not trivial it's hard to do. Is there a inter-operability framework, is it NSX? What could that be? >> Great question. I think as we go from private, to public, to the edge the virtual cloud network is what connects it all together and so definitely from within the data center with now the Velo Cloud acquisition the WAN, and then layering it with analytics and observability with visualized network insight, the portfolio of NSX allows you to connect these disparate data islands and operate very seamlessly, in this hybrid cloud world. Now the same construct applies, when you go native public cloud, where you can connect into AWS or an Azure and that's where, again the Velo Cloud acquisition alongside how NSX is extending its security policy, into AWS and Azure so that you can get the same security posture on prem, at the Edge, in VMC on AWS, with our VCP providers, as well as Native AWS and native Azure. So definitely NSX is that connective tissue, that's why we call it the Virtual Cloud Network, connects the Hybrid Cloud to the Multi Cloud. >> Seamlessly? >> Seamlessly. >> One of the feedbacks I get from users is, you know multi-cloud is challenging. There's that big elephant, how do I get my arms around all of the pieces where'll my data lives? Maybe give us an update there. I did have a chat with Joe Kinsella on theCUBE yesterday. So if CloudHealth Technologies fits into that overall cloud management piece, I'm sure it does, and you can give a little bit of guidance? I'd like to understand how that fits. >> Yes, you know we talked a lot about SAS and delivering VMware services as SAS to vSphere customers but there's this other world where people are going native AWS, native Azure, native GCP. The interesting thing I tell folks is it's very easy to consume cloud but as you start consuming it, you start dealing with tens of thousands of objects, across multiple projects, hundreds of projects across thousands of users. And when you start looking at the problem statements, same things, visibility, lack of visibility, resource management, you tend to over provision to in the cloud, right? By now you're paying by the drip so there's a definite impact to the bottom line. End to end observability and then configuration compliance. Think about this, you're operating at 10X in terms of changes, the chances of making a configuration mistake like leaving an S3 bucket open, are quite high. >> We've seen examples of that, too. >> Exactly, many a CIO have been fired because of that issue. So what we've been seeing with our customers is this has become a data problem, right? So the acquisition of CloudHealth allows us to essentially provide a platform that has that data, and then deliver to our customers in the native cloud, visibility, I say cost management so using reserved instances over on demand, resource management, hey your old provision on your elastic block storage we can reduce the storage capacity and save money. I can optimize RDS better. Sequel right sizing in Azure, so resource management becomes very interesting. Returns on a typical customer with CloudHealth are upwards of 60%. When you take that into consideration with real time security configuration, Secure State was just announced in beta, this week so real time security configuration. When that mistake happens with an S3 bucket being open? Sub 10 seconds we will notify the user that there is a mis-configuration in the cloud, please go fix it. >> Yeah, I'm curious, one of the other challenges is when I have, especially using lots of different SAS providers, public cloud, private cloud, data protection is a big challenge there. I know VMware has a lot of ecosystem partners, one of the hottest things over the couple years. Is that primarily an ecosystem play? How does VMware position there? >> Yeah so in the hybrid cloud world, like you said we have a very strong ecosystem, multiple vendors here exhibiting, there will be some default elements that we bring into vSAN to help kind of the basics of data, you know back up and management but we will definitely continue to partner with our ecosystem when it comes to an aggregate stack of data management but there will be pockets of just simple back up capabilities that you'll start seeing in vSAN, I think we announced the beta of that this week. >> Talk about your organization, do the general managers, do you have a profit loss responsibility so do you have revenue? >> Yes. >> Talk about the team, how you guys are set up. How big is the team? What's the focus? >> Our team, there's two elements to my team. One is my team drives cloud service across VMware so there are folks developing services themselves. The size of the team is now 70 strong across product, marketing and engineering. And then I also work with my counterparts like Mark Lohmeyer, AJ Singh who are building services on our common platform, right? And it's an aggregate to the customer, they come to cloud.vmware.com they federate their enterprise identity, they log in, they see our catalog. It's like a Netflix-like catalog. You can subscribe to it, you get a common experience in terms of billing and essentially start using the services. So it's not only what my team builds but an aggregate what VMware is building and offering to our end users. >> And what go to market do you have? Which products are you doing that go to market for? >> It's all of our SAS based cloud services. We collectively drive the go to market for that as a team working with our corporate marketing team. >> Awesome. >> Yep. >> So that would be a combination of VMware on AWS, AppDefense, now Secure State, Wavefront, and very soon CloudHealth. >> Yeah, a lot of pressure. (laughing) >> Do the SAS product share, do they live in like the AWS marketplace, IBM, you know DOC or what? Where can they get all of them? >> Today you go to cloud.vmare.com and subscribe to them. Certain offers are starting to get into AWS Marketplace, so CloudHealth is actually in the AWS marketplace. >> Sure, sure. >> And we are looking at Wavefront, which is a hidden jewel in our portfolio is also we are thinking about how can get it into the respective marketplaces of Azure, GCP, and others. But today if you want to access any of these services, you simply go and trial it by just going to our website and starting a trial. >> So they've given you all the new stuff, make it happen. AWS, VMware, AWS, vice versa. RDS on premises, you doing that as well? >> Yes. RDS on vSphere, since the announce we've had phenomenal conversations over here. >> Yeah, it's really exciting, I think people don't understand how big this is. >> John, I had a phenomenal conversation with Yanbing and Christos from the storage and availability business who just really broke down how all of that worked in detail. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> The customer interest is high. Someone asked me, why RDS? And they said it's such a hard problem and that was my point exactly, there is such a pain when it comes to managing databases and just like everything else, we started off the conversation, customers want a managed service. They don't want to deal with the intricacies of managing databases, they just want the outcomes from how they access databases. Amazon has solved it very elegantly with RDS, it's one of their most popular services. Why not bring it on prem? So that's been a great engineering partnership we are driving with them, and I'm really excited to bring it to market, shortly. >> Well we're looking forward to keeping in touch, we wanted to actually follow up with you on that. It's a story we're going to be following, certainly developing, it's big news, we love it. Thanks for coming on and spending the time. I got to get you to put a prediction out there for 2019. What do you see happening in 2019 that we're going to be talking about next year at VMworld? Personal prediction, could be a VMware prediction. You've seen a lot of what's going on with NSX, you see what's going on in the big picture, wholistically what is the prediction for 2019? >> It might be a boring prediction, but I fundamentally believe this notion of hybrid being bi-directional in nature. I think you'll see more of that. Even Google announced GKE on vSphere, as an example. So I think you will see more of that come through and it won't be a one way destination conversation that we keep having. And you will see VMware truly be a multicloud company. It won't matter if you're deploying the application in the native cloud, or in a vSphere based cloud. We will help the customer where they land the application. My firm belief is next year when we are here, we'll be talking about stories about how we are helping scale customers in Azure and AWS and GCP on one end, and about how we brought cloud on prem with services like RDS. >> Final question, I'm going to put you on the spot. What do you think is the biggest disruptive enabler for the next 10 years in this bi-directional multi cloud world? Can you point to one this that says, that's going to be the disruptive enabler for the next 10 to 20 years? Is there something out there you can point to, trend, technology, the standard? >> So the way I think about the world is a little bit differently in terms of I truly believe that we are getting inundated by data. I'm not talking about the data that you store in terms of running your business but in terms of the metadata that you run your operations and your infrastructure with. And I believe that the layer that will control that portion, the metadata of infrastructure and applications, we have not even begun to understand where that goes and then you apply AI and ML techniques to that? The idea of, I'll throw a term around here, self driving data centers and self optimizing applications I get really excited but it all begins with that data layer. And we are starting to put the beginning signs with CloudHealth, our private cloud assets to start that process. I'm really excited about how AI/ML meets that data layer to achieve those outcomes. >> It automates IT operations, sounds like automation's coming. Milin, thanks for coming on. Milin Desai, he's the vice president general manager of VMware's cloud services. The hottest area, it's emerging, it's got a lot of attention. We'll be following it, of course, on siliconANGLE and Wikibon and theCUBE. We're day three coverage here in the broadcast booth in Las Vegas in the VM village. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, stay with us for more after this short break. (upbeat techno music)

(upbeat techno music) >> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering VMworld2018 brought to by VMware and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, I am Lisa Martin with Dave Vellante, John Furrier, Stu Miniman at the end of day two of our continuing coverage, guys, of VMworld 2018, huge event, 25+ thousand people here, 100,000+ expected to be engaging with the on demand and the live experiences. Our biggest show, right? 94 interviews over the next three days, two of them down. Let's go, John, to you, some of the takeaways from today from the guests we've had on both sets, what are some of the things that stick out in your mind? Really interesting? >> Well we had Michael Dell on so that's always a great interview, he comes on every year and he's very candid and this year he added a little bit more color commentary. That was great, it was one of my highlights. I thought the keynote that Sanjay Poonen did, he had an amazing guest, Nobel Peace Prize winner, the youngest ever and her story was so inspirational and I think that sets a tone for VMware putting a cultural stake in the ground around tech for good. We've done a lot of AI for good with Intel and there's always been these initiatives but I think there's now a cultural validation that people generally want to work for and buy from companies that are mission driven and mission driven is now part of it and people can be judged on that front so it's good to see VMware get some leadership there and put the stake in the ground. I thought that was the big news today, at least from my standpoint. The rest were like point product announcements. Sanjay Poonen went into great detail on that. Pat Gelsinger also came on, another great highlight and again we didn't have a lot of time, he was running a bit late, he had a tight schedule but it shows how smart he is, he's really super technical and he actually understands at a root level what's going on so he's actually a great CEO right now, the financial performance is there and he's also very technical, and I think it encapsulates all of it that Dell Technologies, under Michael Dell, he's making so much more money, he's going to be richer and richer. (laughing) He took an entrepreneurial bet, it wasn't hurting at the time but Dell was kind of boring, Dave. I wouldn't call it like an innovative company at the time when they were public using the 90 day shot clock. They had some things going on but they were a hardware company, a supplier to IT footprints-- >> Whoa, whoa, they were 60 billion dollars in revenue and a 20 billion dollar market gap, so something was broken. >> Well I mean it was working numbers wise but he seemed-- >> No that's opposite, a 20 billion dollar value on a 60 billion of revenue, is you're sort of a failure, so anyway, at the time. >> Market conditions aside, right, at the time, he seemed like he wanted to do something entrepreneurial and the takeaway from my interview with him, our interview with him, was he took an entrepreneurial bet put his own cash on the table and it's paying off, that horse is coming in. He's going to make more money on this transaction and takes EMC out of the game, folds it into the operations, it really is going to be, I think, a financial success story if market conditions continue to be the way they are. Michael Dell will go down as a great financial maneuver and he'll be in the top epsilon of deals. >> The story people might forget is that Carl Icahn tried to take the company away from him. Michael Dell beat the great Carl Icahn, which doesn't happen often. Why did Carl Icahn want to take Dell private? Because he knew he could make a boatload of money off of it and Michael Dell said, "No way you're taking my company. "I'm going to do my thing and change the industry." >> He's going to have 90% voting control with Silver Lake Partners when the deal is all said and done and taking a company private and the executing the financial engineering plus execution is really hard to do, look at Elon Musk in the news today. He's trying to take Tesla private, he got his butt handed to him. Now he's saying, "No, we're going to stay public." (laughing) >> Wait, guys, are you saying Michael, after he gets all this money from VMware that it will help them go public, he's not going to sell off VMware or get rid of that, right? >> Well that's a joke that he would sell VMware, I mean-- >> Unless the cash is going to be good? >> No, he won't do it. >> I don't think it'll happen. I mean, maybe some day he sells some of the portion of it but you're not going to give up control of it, why would he? It's throwing off so much cash. He's got Silver Lake as a private equity company, they understand this inside and out. I mean this transaction goes down in history as one of the greatest trades ever. >> Yeah. >> Let me ask you guys a question, because I think is one we brought up in the interview because at that time, the pundits, we were actually right on this deal. We were very bullish on it, and we actually analyzed it. You guys did a good job at Wikibon and we on theCUBE pretty much laid out what happened. He executed it, we put the risks out there, but at the time people were saying, "This is a bad deal, EMC." The current state of IT at that time looked like it was dismal but the market forces that changed were cloud, and so what were those sideways impact points that no one understood, that really helped him lift this up? What's your thoughts, Dave, on that? >> First of all the desktop business did way better than anybody thought it would, which is amazing and actually EMC did pretty poorly for a while and so that was kind of a head fake. And then as we knew, VMware crushed it and crushed it even more than anybody expected so that threw off so much cash they were able to deliver, they did Pivotal, they did a Pivotal IPO, sold some software assets. I mean basically Michael Dell and his team did everything they said they said they were going to do and it's worked out, as he said today, even better than they possibly thought. >> Well and the commentary I'd give here is when the acquisition of EMC by Dell happened, the big turn we had is the impact of cloud and we said, "Well, okay they've got VMware over there "and they've got Pivotal but Dell's "just going to be a boring infrastructure company "with server, network and storage." The message that we heard at Dell World and maturing even more here is that this portfolio of families. Yes, VMware's a big piece of it, NSX and the networking, but Pivotal with PKS, all of those tie in to what's Dell's selling. Every time they're selling VxRail, you know that has a big VMware piece. They do the networking piece that extends across multi clouds, so Dell has a much better multi cloud story than I expected them to have when they bought EMC. >> But now, VMware hides a lot of warts. >> Yeah. >> Right? >> Absolutely. >> Let's be honest about that. >> What are they? >> Okay. I still think the client business is exposed. I mean as great as it is, you got to gain share in that business if you want to keep winning, number one. Number two is, the big question I have is can the core of Dell EMC continue to innovate or will it just make incremental improvements, have to do acquisitions to do innovation, inorganic acquisitions, and end up with more stovepipes? That's always been, Stu used to work there, that was always EMC's biggest challenge. Jeff Clark came in and said, "Okay, we're going to rationalize the portfolio." That has backlash as customer's say, "Well wait a minute, does that mean "you're not going to support my products?" No, no, we're going to support your products. So they've got to continue to innovate. As I say, VMware, because of how much cash it throws off, it's 50% of the company's profits, hides a lot of those exposures. >> And if VMware takes a turn, if market conditions change, the debt looming is exposed so again, the game's not over for Dell. He can see the finish line, but. (laughing) >> Buy low, sell high, guess who's selling right now? >> So a lot of financial impact, continued innovation but at the end of the day, guys, this is all about impacting customer's businesses. Not just from we've got to enable them to be successful in this multi cloud era, that's the norm today. They need to facilitate successful digital transformations, business outcomes, but they also have VMware, Dell EMC, Dell Technologies, great power to help customer's transform their cultures. I'd love to get perspective from you guys because I love the voice to the customer, what are some of your favorite Dell EMC, VMware, partner, customer stories that you've heard the last couple days that really articulate the value of this financial successful company that they're achieving? >> Well the first thing I'll say before we get to the customer stories is on your point about what VMware's doing, is they're a technology, Robin Matlock, the CMO was on theCUBE talking about they're a technology company, they have the hands on labs, they're a very geeky audience, which we love. But they have to get leadership on the product side, they got to maintain the R and D, they got to have best in class technical products that actually are relevant. You look at companies like Tintri that went bankrupt, great technology, cul-de-sac market. There's no market there, the world's going cloud. So to me VMware has to start pumping out really strong products and technologies that the customer's are going to buy, right? (laughing) >> In conjunction with the customer to help co-develop what the customer's need. >> So I was talking to a customer and he said, "Look, I'm 10 years behind where the cloud guys are "with Amazon so all I want is VMware "to make my life easier, continue to cut my costs. "I like the way I'm operating, "I just get constant pressure to cut cost, "so if they keep doing that, I'm going to stay with them "for a long, long time." Pete Townsend said it best, companies like VMware, Dell EMC, they move at the speed of the CIO and as long as they can move at the speed of the CIO, I've said this a million times, the rich get richer and it's why competent management that led by founders like Larry Ellison, like Michael Dell, continue to do well in this industry. >> And Andy Jassy technically, I would say, a found of AWS because he started it. >> Absolutely. >> A key, the other thing I would also say from a customer, we hear a lot of customer, I won't name names because a lot of our data's in hallway conversations and at night when we go out and get the real stories. On theCUBE it's mostly, oh we've been very successful at VM, we use virtualization, blah, blah, blah and it's an IT story, but the customers in the hallways that are off the record are saying essentially this, I'm paraphrasing, look it, we have an operation to run. I love this cloud stuff and I'd love to just blink my fingers and be in the cloud and just get rid of all this and operate at a level of cloud native, I just can't. I can't get there. They see Amazon's relationship with VMware as a bridge to the future and takes away a lot of cognitive dissonance around the feelings around VMware's lack of cloud, if you will. In this case, now that's satisfied with the AWS deal and they're focused on operations on premises and how to get their app more closed, like modernize so a lot of the blocking and tackling of the customer is I got virtualization and that's great but I don't want to miss out on the next lever of innovation. Okay, I'm looking at it going slow but no one's instantly migrating to the cloud. >> No way, no way. >> They're either born in the cloud or you're on migration schedules now, really evaluating the financial impact, economic impact, headcount impact of cloud. That's the reality of the cloud. >> You got to throw a flag on some of that messaging of how easy it is to migrate. I mean it's just not that easy. I've talked to customers that said, "Well we started it and we just kind of gave up. "There was no point in it. "The new stuff we're going to do in the cloud, "but we're not going to migrate all of our apps to the cloud, "it just makes no sense, there's no business case for it." >> This is where NSX and containers and Kubernetes bet is big, I think, I think if NSX can connect the clouds with some sort of interoperable layer for whatever workloads are going to move on either Amazon or the clouds, that's good. If they want to get the developers off virtualization, into a new drug, if you will, it's going to be services, micro services, Kubernetes because you can throw containers around those old workloads, modernize with the new stuff without killing the old and Stu and I heard this clear at the CNCF and the Lennox Foundation, that this has changed the mindset because you don't have to kill the old to bring in the new. You can bring in the new, containerize the old and manage on your speed of the CIO. >> And that's Amazon's bet isn't it? I mean, look, even Sanjay even said, if you go back five, six years, the original reinvent that was sweep the floor, bring it all into the cloud? I think that's in Amazon's DNA. I mean ultimately that's their vision. That's what they want to have happen and the way they get there is how you just described it, John. >> That's where this partnership between Amazon and VMware is so important because, right, Amazon has a lot of the developers but needs to be able to get deeper into the enterprise and VMware, starting to make some progress with the developers, they've got a code initiative, they've got all of these cool projects that they announced with everything from server less and Kubernetes and many others, Edge going to be a key use case there but you know, VMware is not, this is not the developer show. Most of the conversations that I had with customers, we're talking IT things, I mean customers doing some cool things but it's about simplifying in my environment, it's about helping operations. Most of the conversations are not about this cool new micro services building these things out. >> Cisco really is the only legacy, traditional enterprise company that's crushing developers. You give IBM some chops, too, but I wouldn't say they're crushing it. We saw that at Cisco Live, Cisco is doing a phenomenal job with developers. >> Well the thing about the cloud, one thing I've been pointing out, observation that I have is if you look at the future of the cloud and you can look for metaphors and/or real examples, I think Amazon Web Services, obviously we know them well but Google Cloud to me is a picture of the future. Not in the sense of what they have for the customer's today it's the way they've run their business from day one. They have developers and they have SREs, Site Reliability Engineers. This VMworld community is going down two paths. Developers are going to be rapidly iterating on real apps and operators who are going to be running systems. That's network storage, all integrated. That's like an SRE at Google. Google's running massive scale and they perfected it, hence Kubernetes, hence some of the tools coming in to services like Istio and things that we're seeing in the Lennox Foundation. To me that's the future model, it's an operator and set of developers. Whoever can make that easy, completely seamless, is the winner of it all. >> And the linchpin, a linchpin, maybe not the linchpin, but a linchpin is still the database, right? We've seen that with Oracle. Why is Amazon going so hard after the database? I mean it's blatantly obvious what their strategy is. >> Database is the hill that everyone is trying to take down. Capture the hill, you get the high ground with the database. >> Come on Dave, when you used to do the financial models of how much money is spent by the enterprise, that database was a big chunk. We've seen the erosion of lots of licensing out there. When I talked to Microsoft, they're like, pushing a lot of open source, they're going to cloud. Microsoft licensing isn't as much. VMware licensing is something that customers would like to shrink over time but database is even bigger. >> It's a strategic fulcrum, obviously Oracle has it. Microsoft clearly has it with Sequel Server. IBM, a big part of IBM's success to this day, is DB2 running on mainframe. (laughing) So Amazon wants a piece of that action, they understand to be a major player in this business you have to have database infrastructure. >> I mean costs are going down, it's going to come down to economics. End of the day the operating models as I said, some things about DB2 on mainframe, the bottom line's going to come down to when the cost numbers to run at the value and cost expense involved in running the tech that's going to be the ultimate way that things are either going to be cleared out or replaced or expanded so the bottom line is it's going to be a cost equation at that level and then the upside's going to be revenue. >> And just a great thing for VMware, since they don't own the application, when they do things like RDS in their environment they are freeing up dollars that customers are then going to be more likely to want to spend with VMware. >> Great point. I want to make real quick, three things we've been watching this week. Is the Amazon VMware deal a one way trip to the cloud? I think it's clear not in the near term, anyway. And the second is what about the edge? The edge to me is all about data, it's like the wild, wild west. It's very unclear that there's a winner there but there's a new type of cloud emerging. And three is the Dell structure. We asked Pat, we asked VMware Ray O'Farrell, we asked Michael, if that 11 billion dollar special dividend was going to impact VMware's ability to fund it's future? Consistent answer there, no. You know, we'll see, we'll see. >> I mean what are they going to say? Yeah, that really limits my ability to buy companies, on theCUBE? No, that's the messaging so of course, 11 billion dollars gone means they can't do MNA with the cash, that means, yeah it's going to be R and D, what does that mean? Investment, so I think the answer is yes it does limit them a little bit. >> Has to. >> It's cash going out the door. >> But VMware just spent, it is rumored, around 500 million dollars for CloudHealth Technologies, Dave, Boston based company, with about 200 people You know, hey, have a billion-- >> They're going to put back a dividend anyway and do stock buybacks but I'm not sure 11 out of the 13 billion is what they would choose to do that for, so going forward, we'll see how it all plays out, obviously. I think, Floyer wrote about this, more has to go toward VMware, less toward-- >> I think it's the other way around. >> Well I think it's really good that we have one more day tomorrow. >> I think it's a one way trip to the cloud in a lot of instances, I think a lot of VMware customers are going to go off virtualization, not hypervisor and end up being in the cloud most of the business. It's going to be interesting, I think the size of customers that Amazon has now, versus VMware is what? Does VMware have more customers than Amazon right now? >> It's pretty close, right? VMware's 500,000? >> 500,000 for VMware. >> And Amazon's-- >> Over a million. >> Are they over a million, really? >> Yeah. >> A lot of smaller customers, but still. >> Yeah. >> Customer's a customer. >> But VMware might have bigger customers, see that's-- >> No question the ASP is higher, but-- >> It's not conflict, I'm just thinking like cloud is natural, right? Why wouldn't you want to use the cloud, right? I mean. >> So guys-- >> So the debate continues. >> Exactly. Good news is we have more time tomorrow to talk more about all this innovation as well as see more real world examples of how VMware is going to be enabling tech for good. Guys, thanks so much for your commentary and letting me be a part of the wrap. >> Thank you. >> Thanks, Lisa. >> Looking forward to day three tomorrow. For Dave, Stu and John, I'm Lisa Martin. You've been watching our coverage of day two VMworld 2018. We look forward to you joining us tomorrow, for day three. (upbeat techno music)