>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con North America 2018 brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hey welcome back everyone, we are live here in Seattle. It's theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon, Cloud Native Con, a part of CNCF, Cloud Native Computing Foundation, the rise of Kubernetes, this is what the show is all about. Three days of wall to wall coverage. We've been there from the beginning covering this KubeCon effort from the beginning. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman, we're here to analyze and break down the event with our guest analyst for the segment, Steve Herrod, CUBE alumni, he was there the first day we ever did theCUBE in 2010. He's been a good friend of theCUBE. Now he's a venture capitalist, managing director at General Catalyst, a premiere VC in the industry. Steve, great to see you. >> Good to be here. >> Thanks for coming on. >> Feels like the early days of some of the other conferences, too, doesn't it? >> It feels like AWS, you know seven/eight years ago where it tips over, there's a tipping point. We see that doubling, so you know, it's kind of that tipping point where there's more demand for theCUBE and we can fill it so there's great content but it's a bigger picture, right? And I want to break through that, I want to get your thoughts and let's have a shared conversation around what's really going on here. You're talking about a disruption in the industry of cloud computing. You got Amazon, just a freight train just taking all the beach, the waves coming in and this is an opportunity, this is my opinion, for the industry to kind of say, hey, it's a multi cloud world so you're not going to take all of it. You got Google, you got Microsoft, you got start ups. This is a way to create an opensource way to fill the gap. Your thoughts? You agree? >> I totally agree and I think what's interesting, this conference does not have a corporate, at least an explicit corporate sponsor. It has four or five that are all trying to have their play in it. Microsoft's not one of them, which is sort of interesting. But it was, I think, a very bold thing this year to have this big of a venue and invite this many people and then hope that you're going to get the sponsorships and all the other stuff that follows. >> In Seattle. >> In Seattle. Yeah, our weather is a little bit-- >> It's very meta. (laughing) >> Interesting. But, just to your point, I do think this is really interesting because it is more open than a lot of these conferences where people are coming together. Both open source but also so much focus on how do you do functions in a way that works across places, how do you service meshes. Like everything is, it's both good and bad because there's so many choices that people are being seen right now. >> You were the CTO of VMware, Stu you worked in the CTO office at EMC back in the day, you're seeing a systems kind of vibe going on in cloud and you got application renaissance, kind of almost like the app server days, think WebSphere or whatever, that movement in the 90's and 2000's, that kind of grew quickly, all kind of being modernized. So you have cloud scale. >> Mm-hmm. >> AI has been around for a long time but because of the cloud, there's a renaissance. Video's been around for a long time but because of the cloud, things like theCUBE is happening. So the cloud is enabling a rebirth of a lot of things. >> Mm-hmm. >> And enabling a lot of new things, how do you guys view that systems view, application renaissance? Jassy talks about a reinvent as a new kind of persona developing. >> Mm-hmm. >> As a buyer and IT investments are changing, you're making start up investments, it's crazy. >> Yep. >> What do you think? >> Yeah, so first of all John, I like what you're saying about that systems view because too often we would kind of focus on a specific tool. So virtualization was great, but, you know, big thing, I took a bunch of servers and made it smaller servers but I took the same old application and I shoved it in there, and I left it running for another five or 10 years when I probably should have modernized it. Today, you know we just had Cheryl on talking about the ecosystem and customers and what I want to focus on is how the users get value. What are building on top of this? >> Right. >> Not the next cool thing to build, but how do I run my business? How do I do cool things with genomics? How do I improve healthcare? And in many ways we're seeing some of these top down things. I mean what's gotten me so excited about things like serverless and been really poking and teasing at how that fits in with this ecosystem is it's not just about a way to kind of turn the crank on making things a little bit more efficient or, you know, I can manage more machines with fewer people, but you know it moves up things and for someone like myself, a networking guy with an infrastructure background? >> Right. >> It's a little out of my comfort zone and that's okay. You know we talked to Lou Tucker, Lou's really excited about where AI's going and what's there, so I think we're in a real renaissance here and it's a big inflection point. >> Well I think to your point, what's interesting, whenever I do a teacher course to a college or when I'm talking to start ups or even in the old days it's really easy to forget that infrastructure is not a thing in it's own right. It's solely there to enable applications and to enable other things and so whenever you get really deep in the weeds on this is a new security model for this type of container or this, it's important and you're thinking about the best way to do it but, really you're right, you have to abstract it out to can I ship value faster? Can I save customers money? Can I do something safer? You really have to think about it in that context. And there's so much activity here you have to really make sure you're thinking about where it all fits together. >> And you know, the computer science conversations changes, too. The nature of what is computer science is evolving. I want to get to that in the next kind of discussion point but I want to just, Steve, ask you, you were on the VMware side when VMware kind of entered in with virtualization. It was a desktop, it was an app, it was like you loaded it on a machine and then that ended up transforming a massive industry and so a lot of people compare what VMware did in it's growth and it's impact but saying the cloud has got certainly more orders of magnitude, you mentioned security. >> Mm-hmm. >> Where's the VMware moment in this cloud transformation impact? Your thoughts there, just because you've been on both sides, one as a driver, CTO at VMware and now as an investor. Where do you see cloud-- >> Yeah, I kind of thought of it as two different angles. One is, appealing to developers and then that taking you all the way through operations which is, I mean that is, dev ops is sort of looking at that. VMware's first product was a workstation product that made developers have a bunch of environments right in front of them and we always had a vision for getting into the operations center but we knew we had to kind of come up through that path and I think likewise, a lot of this tooling that we see here is developer first and it's them saying, "I like this tool "and I can make my job be more enjoyable this way." But what you're really seeing, especially at this one is, how do you start in the developer tools and then not be detested by developers but then actually be paid for it by the operations side. So if you look at the type of vendors that are here? You start having venture capitalists here. You have a few people wearing suits here. It is about making this more enterprisey, more production ready and that's kind of the natural progression of any major impact like this. >> And Heptio, certainly Stu was reporting earlier, the number has been better than the filing of VMware. You know, a half a billion dollar acquisition for talent and a position in the marketplace. There's liquidity so there's investment opportunities. We talked to Jerry Chan about this at AWS, I want to get your thoughts, how is the investment thesis going on because what are you investing in? The notion of a stack, has kind of transformed into Lego blocks and services. >> Yep. >> So the notion of a stack is kind of changing although I've heard people say the, "Kubernetes stack." I'm like, well, what does that mean? (laughing) >> Which one? Yeah. >> So there's a lot of kind of stack derivatives. >> Mm-hmm. >> But how do you invest in this? What are you looking for? Where is the value? >> Yep. >> Where are sniffing out the deals? Where's the white spaces? And where should entrepreneurs go? >> Yeah, and I have several companies presenting here so I've certainly done some investments around this space, but I focus on a few things very specifically. I've been around this a little while. I really like to think about not tools that go to the new, hot new companies. I really try to think about what is more mainstream company going to adopt? And that usually means a few things. It has to have enterprise capabilities. It has to fit into the rest of the things. But I look at like how are you going to digest this with your other tools and the other processes that you have in place? If it's a security solution, I look at, I don't want really something that only protects the brave new world, I want it to fit in somehow with security policies and other things that are happening. >> So mainstream adoption? IT kind of impact? >> Yeah, just like a tool that actually works across environments and lets you go from here to there. You all have talked to Illumio several times? >> Yeah. >> They're trying to do micro segmentation for physical machines all the way through containers. The other thing I'm keeping a close eye on is, this is chaos, in terms of the number of start ups doing very specific point solutions and you have to really think about how does that grow into a big enough chunk of a budget or a big enough problem. So every single time I make an investment, I ask how does this do something 10 times better than something else and is that important to the company? And that's really hard to answer sometimes. >> Steve, and what's your take on the kind of opensource, open core, business model today? To be honest, I go around, I talked to some of the founders there, and everybody wants to contribute to opensource but maybe I don't want to build a business around it, because actually monetizing that is really tough. Is it just, I look to get acquired by one of the big players here? Or can I actually build a business with opensource at it's core? >> That's literally the billion dollar question. >> Yeah. >> But I do think, like on the positive side, the number of exits or big things recently with Magento, with Cloudera doing great, with, obviously, Red Hat, but we've seen, and Neilsoft, like a lot of big acquisitions and some good IPOs. But on the flip side, you definitely have to think about it differently now. There's a growing license that is very careful about allowing clouds to host your opensource project without contributing back. Hopefully that'll allow this hosted model to play out. I personally, I certainly look to opensource. You can see what's going on from traction but when you see it as a great lead generation engine which it often is for folks, I think that's a really healthy way to avoid spending a bunch of marketing money. >> Yeah, it's been fun. A lot of different shows we go to. Love your analysis, thanks for coming on, appreciate it. Just in general, as not a VC, but as a tech person and in the industry, I want to ask you and Stu what wave are we on? Obviously Kubernetes is now kind of front and center but we've still got cloud native. Is it the cloud? You got IoT and Amazon ARM, but we saw a lot of conversations around Edge. They had some interesting announcements around satellite telemetry coming in to regions. So you got Google, you got Microsoft, you got the big players. Is it the rich get richer? Is there going to be a new second tier? Cloud service provider? Where is this going? How is it going to reshape the industry? I mean, just big picture, what's your thoughts? >> Well, this is literally what I get paid to do is figure out where things are headed. I'd say, just at a top level, this is a super fun time to be in this lower level of the stack. You mentioned already AI gets, sort of AI washing goes on a lot right now but the very core of it is literally changing every application in interesting ways. And for me, I was a former hardware designer. The fact that you can now build and have really cool new hardware that's accelerating this stuff is really exciting. You saw Amazon's announcements, not only an ARM based server but Inferentia chips. Google has been doing this with TPUs-- >> Hundred gig networking in there, like, you know, high speed-- >> It is impressive. >> Cluster configurations, it's amazing stuff. >> So I love the fact that we can actually have very big innovation at each stage of the stack and it's because the combination of every company becoming an app, digital company coupled with the power of AI to transform things means you need dev ops to faster, you need these platforms that let you do more self service. And then I sprinkle on top of that is just the ridiculous demand for high quality engineers and if you don't give them an environment where they feel productive, they're just not going to stay at your company. And so all the mix comes together. I don't think they're going to be, there'll be some giant companies that already are, but I think the ability to create a new company that becomes large quickly or becomes small quickly if you screw up is bigger than ever. >> Yeah, I think it's total acceleration. >> Everything's faster. >> Values accelerated but it's also failure, too, right? >> Exactly, everything is accelerated. >> You have an option to abandon in you NPV calculations and IRRS (laughing) in your portfolio. >> Exactly, no it's-- >> The word pivot comes to mind. >> Everything is faster, that's the right way to think about it. >> Stu what's your take on this? >> Yeah, so we're at an interesting point in the industry. It's a bit of a paradox. On the one hand, the challenge of our time, we've been talking on theCUBE since the early days, John, is it's about distributed architectures and we're decomposing all of the pieces. Even Kubernetes itself, we're going to talk about how it's decomposing. On the other hand, everything is consolidating. >> That's right. >> I've seen more vertical stack integration from the chip and hardware level all the way through. You see Apple, Microsoft, Google-- >> That's right. >> And Amazon, all have chips companies and are going really interesting stuff there but it is such a complex individual. >> It is. >> That no one company can do it all, so there is opportunity for people to build on top of that. We have new marketplaces, we have new ways of doing it so it's, yes, there's going to be some really big winners and we have seen changes but there are still opportunities and yeah, John, keeps us busy always. >> Well here's my take on it, I want to get you guys' reaction to my view on this. So obviously we're in the media business, we're disrupting media with theCUBE so we look at the market and it's kind of matched the music industry. The power curve, the power law is very flat and straight and then a very long tail, with the head of the power law is the big players. But then when media came out, it kind of created a fatter tail and a bigger torso. I think that I see in the cloud, I see the rich getting richer. Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Alibaba, and maybe a couple players underneath there, IBM, Oracle, those big guys. And then it's going to be a second tier of cloud service providers. Someone who's going to package all these awesome sets of features in the long tail so you're going to start to see a growth because the big guys cannot be winning all the mid range business. I think, you're right, I think there's going to be a lot of solutions that are just exceptional. >> Mm-hmm. >> And I think the scale of the cloud is going to create an opportunity for new kinds of service providers. Someone who says, hey, you know what? I'm going to package this differently. I'm going to assemble-- >> I think so. >> A cloud solution, on either one of all of the clouds. Why wouldn't I use the accelerated Amazon, or the power of Google? >> I think that's well thought and I do think, we've talked about this for a while too, but I do believe there's going to be specialization by industry where you have certain algorithms and data that's unique to it, by geography. There's still going to be sovereignty issues. Even by just what type of things am I trying to build. So I do think simultaneously there's commonality on the platform but that allows you to do specialization and to really serve a specific industry quite well. >> And machine learning is a great specialty thing. The metadata to power machine learning. >> So Steve, do you have final questions you want to ask us before we run out of time? >> Well I would just say, you see a lot of these conferences. I actually like to show up at these and say, what in point time does this look like the AWS reinvent. For me, what point in time does this look like maybe the VMware event in my case, but I don't know, it just feels to me like we've jumped over, we're sort of at that point where this is going to keep going and growing. >> Yeah, how do we make sure we've hit the inflection point but not jumped the charts? >> Yeah, I mean, do you think we are here? And how does this feel versus some of the other events that you spend time on? >> Yeah, I mean, John you want me to? >> I mean, you know. >> So my take, first of all, is there's a little worry and there's some concern of us that have been through this before, is like, wait, did we just create another OpenStack? >> Yeah. >> And my resounding answer so far, is no. While there might be 35 main projects here each one of those was started for a reason. They stand on their alone, they have, you know we've got Matt Klein on from Lyft, as our next guest here. >> Yeah. >> You know, Envoy, if Kubernetes didn't exist, Envoy would probably still exist. So there's a lot of these pieces that are good but it is complicated. >> It is very complicated. >> And there's all these pieces but that's a real opportunity for a lot of companies. The SIs, the big platforms, to be able to help put this together. >> Yeah. >> And the customers are thrilled with what is going on. >> That's well stated, yeah. >> There's interesting things there. Right, this ecosystem, the only ecosystem I've seen probably grow faster is the Amazon one so it is doing well and we've been looking for years as to like a nice, vendor independent ecosystem. >> Right. >> To grow because, you know, there's some of the ones in the storage industry and things like that. >> Yeah. >> All died. >> That's right. >> So there are vendor shows and this, you know the Lennox Foundation's done a nice job. >> Right, I agree. >> With it and it's been-- >> That's the unique part here for me. >> We bet early on it, so. >> Well we bet early on it, it was a good bet, but here's the challenge that they have; they have lightning in a bottle and it's definitely arrived so there's a little bit of jump to shark moment. You got some things happening that's kind of glam oriented but absolutely it's arrived. I think the challenge that they have is opensource community is a core constituency of this event, and the Lennox Foundation is structured to be kind of a very tight top, thin at the top period of management and the scale of this event and this movement is too big for them, I think, to handle. I think they either have to have sub brand or start segmenting out because if they lose the opensource community, the they're going to lose the vibe of the event and that's the core of what it is. >> Right. >> The downstream benefits, kind of a an opensource parlance, is the IT impact and the developer impact. And inherent in that is business benefits so you're going to start to see more suits coming in and you're going to start to have a melting pot and that is a risky proposition if they don't get out front on that. So yes, it's arrived, but there's so much time they're going to be doing it just to the projects. >> Right. >> Just to the innovation. >> You're going to have to wear these next time that you see them. >> There's a money making aspect of it, yes. >> Right. >> The money making aspect of this is huge. >> Yeah. >> And I think that's what we're watching. >> Yep. >> As the business people come in and say, look at this, this is billions and billions of dollars. >> Yeah. >> This is-- >> Maybe just one more thought on that. The notion is really important, this is a distributed, not really owned by one person, one company, and there's the chaos that comes with that and so how do you do the balance between these two things? >> Yeah, yeah. >> Its like when, I know, when Amazon announced their Blockchain thing, it's like, Blockchain's supposed to be distributed. Now we have a company running it in one cloud. It's like that balance between the push and pull of centralization that we're going to see. >> Well have to put some computer science architecture together and put an operating system around it. >> There ya go. >> We'll have some dev ops. Steve, thanks for coming on theCUBE, great to have you on. >> Good to see you guys. >> Well it's great to see you. A legend in the industry, Steve Herrod, CUBE alumni from 2010, been on every year. Now a venture capitalist, former CTO of VMware. With Stu Miniman, I'm John Furrier, analyst of KubeCon, stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (upbeat techno music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con North America 2018. Brought to you by RedHat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay welcome back everyone we're here live in Seattle for KubeCon and Cloud Native Con. I'm John Furrier your host, Stu Miniman from Wikibon here. Next guests Anthony Lye, whose the senior vice president general manager of Cloud Data Services at NetApp, and Jonsi Stergesson, CTO and VP of Cloud Services. Great to have you guys on, great to see you again Anthony. >> As always thank you. >> So first I want to get out there we talked lots in the Kube lounge just to reset. The value parsons of NetApp have significantly been enhanced with the cloud. What is that value proposition? What have you guys seen the explosive headroom for value creation that you guys are enabling with NetApp and the cloud? >> You know what I think NetApp has done over now, probably five years, is really pushed itself to embrace the cloud. To recognize that the cloud is a very important part of everybody's IT infrastructure whether it's an extension of the existing IT infrastructure for things like DR or backup or whether it's the primary platform for legacy workloads or, as we're all here to do, to discuss the refactoring and rebuilding of applications around microservices. I think NetApp chose, unlike all of the traditional storage vendors, to see the cloud as an opportunity and I think it's helped the company and it's helped our customers to operate in what is, I think, is by default now, the end state for many companies is hybrid cloud. >> You guys also made some good moves early on with the cloud. We've documented certainly on SiliconANGLE and theCUBE early on. And then as flash comes in for performance, now you've got compute, storage and networking all being optimized in the cloud, creates app developers an environment where it's programmable infrastructure finally. I mean dev ops is happening, this is where services and notion of compute has gone from standing something up in seconds on the cloud to with functions milliseconds. This is changing the dynamic of applications but you've still got to store the data. Talk about, Jonsi, the impact of the services in piece to the developer, storage, services, provisioning, all that and it covers. >> We are taking, I mean all of our services that are running in all the hyperskills in Google and Azure and AWS and more and even on premise. Our view is our role is always to find the best home for any workload at any given time. Even though it's in public cloud or on premise. However storage has always been sort of left aside, it's always been living in this propietary chunk that is hard to move and the weight of the data is actually quite heavy. So we actually want to use Kubernetes and microservices and resistant volume claims by taking that data and making that very easily migratable replicated between locations, between hyperscalers and sort of adopt a true multi cloud strategy. With data with it not only moving those workloads or applications but the data is key, data is key. >> Sometimes, you know, you want to move the data to a compute and sometimes you want to move compute to the data. >> And that's been validated by Amazon's RDS announcement on VMware, Amazon announced outposting on premises, and the number one thing was latency, work was not yet moving. This is exactly to what you guys have been doing and implementing, today, this is like real product. >> I think the reality of the world is, you know, while there is a ton of innovation that exists in public cloud there are well documented use cases that struggle with a cloud only environment. I think NetApp has chosen to make each one of those three potential persistent stores equal to one another. So whether that's in a traditional on premise and upgrading on premise environments to get better price performance characteristics, embracing the public cloud or combining public and private cloud. >> While it's not trivial NetApp, at it's core, always was software so moving it from a hardware appliance, I mean, back in the day Network Appliance was the original name of the company to a software defined solution to being multi-cloud, you can kind of see that genesis where it can go. A lot of times the tougher part is from the customer standpoint. You know, the traditional person that bought and managed this was a storage administrator and getting them to understand cloud native applications and dev ops and all those things, those are pretty challenging moves so how much of it is education? How much of it is new buying centers inside the company or new clients, help us walk through that. >> Yeah I would make two points in maybe answering to you. So I think NetApp's history, actually 25 years ago, NetApp started off as selling into the developers who were running SUN workstations, who wanted shared everything and NetApp actually you know went around IT and put those appliances into the developers. We built a SaaN business, a very successful SaaN business, with the IT people. Now you're absolutely right, the people around here fall into the, sort of, the modern day dev ops characters. What Google calls the SREs the Site Reliability Engineers. And they're a new breed, they're young, they're doing more and more CICD. Storage is an integral part of what they do but maybe not a primary part. They expect storage to work. We are really lucky you know, a little company called Microsoft and another little company called Google sell our stuff so we get introduced into all of those cloud first, cloud only sort of use cases. Not just of refactoring of primary but building. So we're actually, in many cases now, very relevant to those people but we've been fortunate enough to leverage the big public clouds together. >> So you have a relationship with AWS, Google and Microsoft, Microsoft and Google, which you've just mentioned. You mentioned SRE, Site Reliability Engineer, this is a new persona that's clearly emerging and it has a focus around operations, now IT operations has been around for a long time, dev is changing too but this is, if they sell your stuff, their customers need to operate at scale. This is a big point, can you elaborate on the importance of this and what you guys are doing specifically to help that. >> So the Site Reliability Engineer, he is not doing operations. He is actually in charge of running the workload or the development or the application or the product that comes from development. They have to abide by specific rules that are actually set by the SRE. And to your point, because you were talking about different selling motions and not selling into the storage admin or not selling to traditional IT. This is actually what has actually been really surprising and showcases the power of Kubernetes and how widely adopted it has been, both on premise and in the public cloud because customers are actually coming to us and saying, "Hey we had no idea NetApp was actually "doing all of this in the public cloud. "We had no idea that you had your own Kubernetes services "that actually help solve one of the biggest problems "which is persistent volume claims and application of data." So it's actually coming, and you sort of see how important CNCF is, because they're actually educating the market and educating the enterprise space just as well as the new up and coming development team like I've traditionally come from. So I'm actually seeing that it's easier than I would have sort of thought in the beginning. So they're actually becoming more educated about microservices, more educated about how to run their, actually everybody almost in any company that I go into now, they have the SRE playbook somewhere in their meeting room somewhere and everybody sort of getting educated on how they need to, sort of, elevate themselves from being traditional system administrators into that SRE or dev op role. >> And it's also a cultural thing too, they have to develop, not just the playbook, but have some experience in economies of scale, managing it, and certainly it's a tail wind for you guys, storage because, again, it's also a lot of coating involved they need a pool of resources, storage being one of them. But the other thing that's interesting, those are single clouds, Amazon, Google, multi cloud is really where the action is, right? So multi cloud to me is just, to me, a modern version of multi vendor, which basically is about choice. Choice is critical, but having choice around the app, it becomes the value creator. So if you guys can scale with the app development environments that seems to be a sweet spot. How are you guys talking about that particular point because this becomes an under the covers, a new kind of operations, a new kind of scale, pushing code, not just you know stacking interacting boxes but, like, really making things, patching security things or could have been head of security things so doing things in a really really automated way. >> Yeah, I mean, I think the one thing I'm most proud of at my time at NetApp and what the team does and what the team continues to do is we took a very, very, I think, deliberate perspective that we would deliver storage, but we would do it in a very unique way. That my background was from Saas, I spent my entire career building applications, and when you build an application, you run the application, there is nothing you give the customer and say, "Here, administer it." When you look at a lot of the infrastructure services, they make the customer do a lot of work. So what we did at NetApp was we decided that we ourselves would almost create like an always available protocol that people could just ask for it and it would be there. There was no concept of setting it up or patching it or upgrading it. And that's really I think we have set a bar now on the public clouds that, I think, even the public clouds themselves have not done, and giving those developers that I asked for a storage through an API and all I need to do is ask for capacity and throughput. Nothing else, that's something to a developer they're like, "So now I don't even have to ask "anybody with storage skills. "I can tell my application to ask for it's own storage." >> It's interesting you're living in a new world where you need the scale of a system but the functionality of like an app server. I feel like we're living in that app server days where that middle ground and app development was the key focus, you've got to have both now. You need scalable systems but really application performance. >> And then you add an additional layer because now everybody wants to be able to use the same deployment script, the same configuration management system, Terraform, whatever they're actually using to deploy it on premise or in a public cloud but it needs to be done in a unified manner. This is why it's so important to be upstream compatible and there's a lot of companies out there that are actually destroying that model and not following the true cloud concept. >> Yes give them a slap on the wrist, get in line, fix it! >> If you are going to play in this space with the CNCF and with Kubenetes, you better play by the rules and do the open standards. And so you're actually compatible no matter where your workload resides. >> We've been monitoring how storage is maturing in this whole cloud native Kubenetes ecosystem here. A year ago there were a lot of backroom arguments over what were the right architectures, a few sub projects working through here, it actually blew me away in the keynote this morning to hear that 40% of all applications that are deployed in Kubernetes are stateful. So where are we? What's working? What's good for customers? And what do we still need to work on to kind of solidify the storage data piece of this? >> I think it's interesting, 'cause I think we, sort of, ourselves now consider NetApp to be a data company. Storage is an enabler but what's interesting, everyone talks about their Saas strategy, their PaaS strategy their IaaS strategies. I always ask people, "What's your data strategy?" and that's something I think the CNCF Kubernetes, themselves, recognize that they've done a lot of really great things for compute around the microservices themselves but the storage piece has always been something of a challenge. And we said, about solving that problem, we have an open source project called Trident, that essentially enables people to make persistent volume claims and if the container dies, they can essentially start a new container and pick up the storage exactly where they left off. So we really believe that stateful is an ever increasing percentage of the overall application model. Databases are important things, people need them. >> I would agree with that and that's developing too, it's early on. All right so I want to ask you guys a question, kind of outside the box. Multi cloud certainly is part of a hybrid, what they call a hybrid today, it's really a choice, multi cloud will be a future reality, no matter what anyone says, I believe that. How is multi cloud changing IT investments? Business investments, technical investments or both, what's your guys thoughts on how multi cloud is driving and changing IT investments? >> Well I actually think it offers you the opportunity to have like placement policy algorithms that fit your workload at any given time. For example, if this particular application is latency sensitive, and I created an application that all of a sudden became really popular in Mexico, then I should be able to see which one of the hyperscalers actually has a presence in Mexico City, deploy it there. If I'm under utilizing my private cloud and I have a lot of space on it and there is no specific requirements, it gives you that flexibility to, like I said, always find the best home for your workload at any given time. >> Dynamic policy based stuff? >> Yeah, precisely. And it allows you also, I mean, you can choose to do it whether its based on workload requirements or you can start doing it in a least cost effective route, I mean least cost routing. So it actually impacts both from a technical and a business sense in my opinion. >> I think you know you cannot help but get excited every day with what one cloud delivers over another cloud, and we're seeing something not unlike the arms race, you know, Google does this, then Amazon does this, then Microsoft does this. As developers we're very keen to take advantage of all these capabilities and we want to, in many cases, let the application itself make the decision. >> So yeah Amazons got there, everyone's catching up. Competitions good. All right, final question. Predictions for multi cloud in 2019. What's going to happen? Is there going to be a loud bang? Is there going to be a crash? Is it going to be fruit on the trees? What's the state of the multi cloud predictions for 2019? >> Well I actually believe it's going to become a standard. Nobody should be locked into any region or any one provider, I don't even care if it's on premise or NetOps specific, you should be able to... I mean, I think it's just going to become standard. Everybody has to have a multi cloud strategy and you can see that, like the IDC report that 86% of Fortune 500 companies are adopting multi cloud. And I think I'm actually quite fed up of this hyper cloud stuff because, in my opinion, on premise is just the fourth or the fifth hyperscaler and should be treated as such. So if you actually have that true cloud concept, you should be able to deploy that using the same script, the same APIs to deploy it everywhere. >> As I said in theCube the data center and non print, they're just an edge, a big edge. If it's an operating mall? >> My prediction? Your prediction. >> 2019 is the year of Istio. I think we've become enamored with Kubernetes, I think what Istio brings significantly advances Kubernetes, and we barely scratched the surface, I think, with the service mesh and all of the enhancements and all the contributions that will go into that. I think, you know, that 2019 will probably see as many vendors here next year with Istio credentials and STO capabilities as we see today with Kubernetes. >> Anthony, Jonsi, thanks for coming on, great insights, smart commentary, appreciate it. We should get in the studio and dig into this a little bit deeper. Really a great example of an incumbent, large company, NetApp, really getting a tailwind from the cloud, good smart bets you guys made, programmable infrastructure, dynamic policy routing, all kinds of under the covers goodness from smart cloud deployments. This is where software drives the data. >> Yep data is the new oil, that's what they say right? If you don't have a data set you're not very competitive. >> Thanks for coming on I appreciate it. More Kube coverage here, getting all the breakdown here, the impact of cloud computing at scale, the role of data software, all happening here at the CNCF. This is the KubeCon, I'm John Furrier and Stu Miniman, thanks for watching. More live coverage after this short break.

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's the Cube, covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone. We are live in Seattle for KubeCon 2018, Cloud Native Con. It's the Cube, I'm John Furrier, your host with Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Ashesh Badani, who is the Vice-President and General Manager of Cloud Platforms at Red Hat. Great to see you, welcome back to the Cube. >> Thanks for having me on. Always good to be back. >> So you guys, again, we talk every year with you. It's almost like a check-in. So what's new? You got some big, obviously, the news about the IBM. We don't really want to get into that detail. I know you just a stop on that because it's already out there. But you guys had great success with platformers of service. Now you got the growth of Kubecon and Cloud Native Con, 8000 attendees and users. There's uptake. What's the update on the Red Had side? >> Yeah, we're excited. Excited to be back at Kubecon. It's bigger and better than it's ever been, I think so. That's fantastic. We've been investing in this community for over four years now, since 2014. Really, from the earliest days. Based the entire platform on it. Continue growing that, adding lots of customers across the world. And I think what's really been gratifying for us to see is just the diversity of participants. Both in user perspective as well as the wider ecosystem. So whether you're a storage player, a networking player, management, marketing, what have you. Everything sort of building around this ecosystem. I think we're creating a great amount of value and we're seeing diverse applications being built. >> So you guys have been good then on (mumbles), good timing, a lot of things are going on. This show is an open-source community, right. And that's been a great thing. This is kind of where the end users come from. But two other personas come in that we're seeing participate heavily. The IT pro, the IT expert, and then the classic developer. So you have kind of a melting pot of how this is kind of horizontally connecting. You guys have been successful in the IT side. Where is this impacting the end users?6 How is this open-source movement impacting IT, specifically, and at the end of the day, the developers who are writing code? Have to get more stuff out. What's your thoughts? >> So, we hosted OpenShift Commons yesterday. OpenShift Commons, for the the folks who don't know, is our gathering of participants within the larger OpenShift community. We had lots of end users come and talk about the reason they're adopting a Kubernetes-based platform is to get greater productivity. So for example, if you're someone like Progressive Insurance, an established organization, how do you release applications quicker? How do you make your developers more productive? How do you enable them to have more languages, tools, frameworks at their disposal? To be able to compete in this world where you've got start-ups, you've got other companies trying to compete aggressively with you. I think it's a big dent here, right? It's not just for if you work traditional IT. But it's for if you were a company of all sizes. >> When you talk about customers, every customer is different. You've got, you look at IT, everything is additive, it tends to be a bit of a heterogeneous mess when you get there. Help connect for us what are you hearing from customers? How does, not just Kubernetes, but everything going on here in the Cloud Native environment? How is it helping them? How is it changing the way that they do their business and how's Red Hat involved? >> So one thing we've been noticing is that Hybrid Cloud is here and here to stay. So we've consistently been hearing this from customers. They've invested lots of money and time and energy, skills, in their existing environments. And they want to take advantage of public clouds. But they want to do that with flexibility, with portability, to bring to bear. What we've been trying to do is focus on exactly that. How do we help solve that problem and provide an abstraction. How do you provide primitives. So, for example, we announced our support of Knative, and how we'll make that available as part of OpenShift. Why's that? Well, how can we provide Serverless primitives within the platform so folks can have the flexibility to be able to adopt next-generation technologies. But to be able to do that consistently regardless of where they deploy. >> So, I love that. Talk about meeting the customers there. One of the things that really strikes me, there's so much change going on in the industry. And that's an area that Red Hat has a couple decades of experience. Maybe help explain how Red Hat in bringing some of that enterprise, oversight. Just like they've done for Linux for a long time. >> Yeah, yeah. Stu, you're following us very closely, as are you John, and the team at the Cube. We're trying to embrace that change as it comes upon us. So, I think the last time I was here, I was here with Alex Polvi of Core OS. Red Hat acquired Core OS in January. >> Big deal. >> Yeah, big acquisition for us. And now we're starting to see the fruits of some of that labor. In terms of integrating that technology. Why did we do that? We wanted to get more automation into the platform. So, customers have said, hey, look, I want these clusters to be more self-managing, self-healing. And so we've been really focused on saying how can we take those challenges the customers have, bring that directly into a platform so they're performing more and more like the expectations that they have in the public cloud, but in these diverse, introgenous, environments. >> That speaks to the operating model of cloud. You guys have a wholistic view because you're Red Hat. You got a lot of customers. You have the Dev House model, you got the Kubernetes container orchestration, micro-services. How does that all connect together for the customer? I mean, is it Turn Key and Open Shift? You guys had that nice bet with Core OS, pays big, huge dividends. What are some of those fruits in the operating model? So the customer has to think about the systems. It's a systems model, it's an operating system, so-to-speak. But they still got to develop and build apps. So you got to have a systems-wholistic view and be able to deliver the value. Where does it all connect? What's your explanation? >> So distributed systems are complex. And we're at the point where no individual can keep track of the hundreds, the thousands, the hundred-thousand containers that are running. So, the only way, then, to do it is to be able to say, how can the system be smart? So, at the Commons yesterday we had sort of a tongue-in-cheek slide that said, the factory of the future will only have two employees, a man and a dog. The man's there to feed the dog, and the dog's in place to ensure the man doesn't go off and actually touch the equipment. And the point really being, how can we bring technology that can bring that to bare. So, one example of that is actually through our Core OS acquisition. The Core OS team was working on a technology called, operators. Which is to say, how can we take the human knowledge that exists. To take complex software that's built by third parties and bring that natively into the platform and then have the platform go and manage them on behalf of the actual customer itself. Now we've got over 60 companies building operators. And we've, in fact, taken entire open-shift platforms, put operators to work. So it's completely automated and self-managed. >> The trend of hybrid is hot. You mentioned it's here to stay. We would argue that it's going to be a gateway to multi-cloud. And as you look at the stacks that are developing and the choices, the old concept of a stack-- and Chris was on earlier, the CTO of CNCF. And I kind of agree with him. The old notion of stack is changing because if you've got a horizontal, scale-able cloud framework, you got specialty with machine learning at the top, you got a whole new type of stack model. But, multi-cloud is what the customers want choice for. Red Hat's been around long enough to know what the multi-vendor word was years ago. Multi-vendor choice, multi-cloud choice. Similar paradigms happening now. Modern version of multi-vendor is multi-cloud. How do you guys see the multi-cloud evolution? >> So we keep investing and helping to make that a reality. So, last week, we made some announcements around Open Shift dedicators. Open Shift dedicators is the Open Shift manage service, or AWS. Open Shift is available in ways where it can be self-managed directly by customers in a variety of environments. Directly run around any public cloud or open stack, or what you'd like environment. We have third-party partners. For example, DXC D-systems providing managed versions of Open Shift. And then you can have Red Hat managed Open Shift for you. For example, on AWS, or coming next year, with Microsoft. Through our partnership for Open Shift on Azure. So you as a customer now have, I think, more choice than you ever had before. In terms of adopting Dev-Ops or dealings with micro-services. But then having flexibility with regard to taking advantage of tools, services, that are coming from, pretty much, every corner of IT industry. >> You guys have a huge install base. You've been servicing customers for many, many years, decades. Highest level support. Take us through what a customer, a traditional Red Hat customer that might not be fully embracing the cloud in the past, now is on-boarding to the cloud. What's the playbook? What do you guys offer them? How do you engage with them? What's the playbook? Is it, just buy Open Shift? Is there a series of-- how do you guys bring that Red Hat core Lenux customer that's been on Prim. Maybe a little bit out of shadow IT in the cloud, saying, hey, we're doing additional transformation. What's the playbook? >> So, great question, John. So, first fall into the transformation might be an over-hyped term. Might be a peak hype at this point in time. But I think that the bigger point from my perspective is how do you move more dollars, more euros, more spend towards innovation. That's what every company is sort of trying to do. So, our focus is, how can we build on the investments that they've made? At this point in time, (mumbles) Lenux probably has 50,000 customers. So, pretty much, every customer, any size, around the world, is some kind of Lenux user. How can we then say, how can we now provide you a platform to have greater agility and be able to develop these services quicker? But, at the same time, not forget the things that enterprises care about. So, last week we had our first big security issue released on Kubernetes. The privilege escalation flaw. And so, obviously, we participate in the community. We had a bunch of folks, along with others addressing that, and then we rolled our patches. Our patch roll-out went back all the way to version 3.2, 3.2 shipped in early 2016. Now, the one hand you say, hey, everyone has Dev-Ops, why do you need to have a patch for something that's from 2016? That's because customers still aren't moving as quickly as we'd like. So, I just want to temper, there's an enthusiasm with regard to, everyone's quick, everything's lightning fast. At the same time, we often find-- and so, going back to your question, we often find some enterprises will just take a little bit longer, in reality to kind of get-- (both speaking at once) >> Work loads, they're not going to be moving overnight. >> That's right. >> So there's some legacy from those workloads. >> Right, right. And so, what we want to do is ensure, for example, the platform. So we talked about the security and lifecycle. But, is supporting these Cloud Native, next generation, stateless applications, but also established legacy stateful applications all on the same platform. And so the work we're doing is ensure we don't-- you know, it's like, leave no application behind. So, either the work that we'll do, for example, with Red Hat Innovation Labs. We help sort of move that forward. Or with GSIs, global integrated, real integrators to bring those to bare. >> Ashesh, wonder if we could drill a little bit. There's a lot of re-training that needs to happen. I've been reading lots on there. It's not, oh, I bring in this new Cloud Native team that's just going to totally re-vamp it and take my old admins and fire them all. That's not the reality. There's not enough training people to do all of this wonderful stuff. We see how many people are at this show. Explain what Red Hat's doing. Some of the training maturation, education paths. >> So we do a lot of work on the just core training aspect, learning services, get folks up to speed. There's work that happens, for example, in CNCF. But we do the same thing around certifications, around administering the systems, developing applications, and so on. So that's one aspect that needs to be learned. But then there's another aspect with regard to how do we get the actual platform, itself, to be smart enough to do things, that in the past, individual people had to do? So, for example, if we were to sort of play out the operator vision fully and through execution. In the past, perhaps you needed several database admins. But, if you had operators built for databases, which, for example couch, base, and mongo, and others, have built out. You can now run those within the platform and then that goes and manages on behalf. Now you don't need as many database admins, you free those people up now to build actual business innovation value. So, I think what we're trying to do is increasingly think about how we sort of, if you will, move value up the stack to free up resources to kind of work on building the next generation of services. And I think that's our business transformation work. >> And I think, even though digital transformation is totally over-hyped, which I agree, it actually is really relevant. Because I think the cloud wave, right now, has been certainly validated. But what's recognized is that, people have to re-imagine how they do their infrastructure. And IT is programmable. You're seeing the network. The holy trinity of IT is storage, networking, and compute. So, when you start thinking about that in a way that's cloud-based, it's going to require them to, I don't want to say re-platform, but really move to an operating-environment that's different, that they used to have. And I think that is real. We're seeing evidence of that. With that in mind, what's next? What do you guys got on the horizon? What's the momentum here? What's the most important story that you guys are telling here at Red Hat? And what's around the corner? >> Yeah, so obviously, I talked about a few announcements that we made right around Open Shift Dedicated and the upgrades around that. And things like, for example, supporting bring-your-own-cloud. So, if you got your own Amazon security credentials, we help support that. And manage that on your behalf, as well. We've talked this week about our support native, trying to introduce more server-less technologies into Open Shift. We announced the contribution of SCD to the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. So, continuing re-affirming our commitment to the community I think looking ahead, going forward, our focus next year will be on Open Shift four, which will be the next release of the platform. And there, it's all about how do we give you a much better install than upgrade experience than you've had before? How do we give you these clusters that you can deploy in multiple different environments and manage that better for you? How do we introduce operators to bring more and more automation to the platform? So, for the next few months our focus is on creating greater automation in the platform and then enabling more and more services to be able to run on that. >> Pretty exciting for you guys riding the wave, the cloud wave. Pretty dynamic. A lot of action. You've guys have had great success, congratulations. >> Thank you very much. >> You're fun to watch. The Cube coverage here. We're in Seattle for KubeCon 2018 and Cloud Native Con. I'm John your host. Stay with us for more coverage of day one of three days of coverage after this short break. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)