>> Announcer: Live from Santa Clara in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's the Cube, covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2017. Brought to you by The Cloud Foundry Foundation, and Pivotal. >> Oh my Bosh! One of the fun t-shirts here at the Cloud Foundry Summit. I'm Stu Miniman joined by my co-host John Troyer. We've had a day of some really good interviews, really liked geeking out, digging into this hybrid, multi-cloud world, John. Something that feels to be coming into focus a little bit more. I had a bunch of questions coming in, and many of them, at least, I have some answers as to where they're going. What's your take on the Cloud Foundry Summit? >> Yeah, my first Cloud Foundry Summit I thought was super interesting. We got to talk to a couple users, which is always really interesting, and also some folks from the foundation. It was insightful, actually. I talked to a few vendors here, and they said, well how's the crowd? I said, not big, but the people who are here are big. Right? In terms of, there weren't 20,000 people here, there were 1,700, but the companies that are involved are serious about Cloud Foundry, they're all in, they're building apps and they're not building one or two apps, they're building thousands of apps on Cloud Foundry and moving their whole enterprise over. So, that was kind of super enlightening to me. >> Yeah, I mean, John, we know the story here. We've talked at a number of events about this. When you've got big financial companies, insurance companies, people in healthcare, if they don't become more agile, they will be Uberized. We have to have a different term, right? Uber's in the news for all the bad reasons now, so Netflix was the old term, but that digital disruption by start-ups. So, when you hear companies, oh, we're a 75-year-old company, we're a 100-year-old company, we're becoming a software company, and therefore, we're going to take our thousands of apps, and somewhere writing, we always have the new things we're writing, and then we'll move some along. So, that application really spectrum of the new stuff, and then pulling along the old one with a platform like Cloud Foundry, being that bridge to the future if you will. >> Right. Right. And, we aren't talking about a small team chatting on slack. We're talking about, in one organization, thousands of developers, coordinating on this platform. >> Yeah, absolutely. We to talked Express Scripts, I think they said they're hiring about a thousand engineers in a little more than a year. So, big companies, a lot of things to move when we're talking, Liberty Mutual is like, oh we want 75% of our IT staff to be writing code, and today they're less than 50%. So, if you're sitting in that other 50%, the writing is on the wall that you need to move in that direction, or maybe we're not the right organization for you. I'm curious, your take about that retraining of staff, we know we have a shortage of skill sets. How do they learn? How do they get, is it certifications? Is it training? What have you seen? >> Well they did just announce the Cloud Foundry certification program here today. So, I think that was an interesting component that's needed for support for this. But, really the Cloud Foundry supports all sorts of technologies and I think you see it in both the contributors here and in the technology. So, it's polyglot world, I see a lot of people, the crowd, used to, known assistments are indeed doing more programming, doing more automation, and so I think it's all of a course. I think, look it's clear, in five or 10 years the profile of people in IT is going to look a lot different. And, this is one of the leading edges of it. >> Yeah. Coming to the show and we talked about it on the intro that drumbeat of Kubernetes really gaining the hearts and minds of developers, I feel like it's been diffused a little bit. I don't know whether Kubo is the answer, but it is an answer. We've talked to some people in the ecosystem, that have other options that they're doing. As well as, of course, companies like Google, which Kubernetes came out of and Microsoft who's embracing Kubernetes, they like choice, they want people to use their platform. Keeping a more open approach for Cloud Foundry to work with other pieces of open source in the ecosystem. It's goodness? Time will tell whether this one solution makes sense. What's your take on that? >> Sure, I think Cloud Foundry has always been known as the opinionated platform. But, I think now the subtleties have come out that, yes there are certain opinions in the way things are glued together, but as James Waters pointed out, they've always had different kinds of abstractions of things running on or in the platform, in terms of whole apps or server list, we didn't really talk about today. But, so Kubernetes is sitting beside there for people who want more knobs, who already have an app, that expects that kind of scalability and management, makes sense for the Cloud Foundry. I think, they seem pretty open to embracing whatever works, and in some ways it's an analogy to what going on in the clouds like Azure and Google Cloud Platform, and that it's like, look bring us your work loads, we will run them. So, I think that's kind of an opening of at least a publicly stance of an opening. >> Yeah. I like this as Steve O'Grady said in the conversation we had with him, there's a lot of choices out there and therefore customers really, they want that. Of course there's the paradox situation. How do I keep up on all the latest and greatest? I mean, three years ago, the last time I came to the show, was like 08 Docker, totally going to disrupt this. Now it's Kubernetes, we only brought up functions as a service or as a server less, like once, and it did not seem to fit into where this plays today. But, there's options out there. Customers that are here, like what they're doing. It is moving them forward, it is enabling them to be that faster, faster, faster. More agile, meet the needs of the business and stay competitive. >> Yeah. Steve's term was different tools for different jobs or something like that right? >> We always said at Wikibon, a torse is for courses. >> Yeah. I mean a polyglot is one way that Coops' Clouds Foundry world used to talk about it. But, I think different tools is a great way. There is, we're in a technical time of great diversity. Which is awesome right? There's no monoculture here, which is super interesting, I think. >> Yeah absolutely, also the move from Cloud Foundry really started out as a predominantly, a non premises deployment and Public Cloud is seeping into it. We talked to a couple of customers that are starting to use Public Cloud, and most of them who weren't using it today were understanding where it fits. Sorting that piece out and look at solutions like Cloud Foundry as one of those pieces that are going to give them flexibility moving forward. >> Yeah. I mean I think that this is something that's going to have to develop over time. Right? It's one thing to say, I'm a layer on top of another cloud, but Amazon really wants you to use its databases, and Google Cloud really wants you to use it's services. And so, you can only stay completely independent for so long without taking advantage of those things, as you evolve these platforms. So, there is that tension there, that will play out, but it's played out over and over again at the many levels in tact. So, we'll see some standard stuff there. If Cloud Foundry has enough value, people will use it as their deployment platform on MultiCloud. Well let's talk about MultiCloud. What you think Stu? But sometimes MultiCloud is more of an ideal than a practicality for many organizations. >> Yeah. What about Pivitol? So if we look at Pivitol, number they're doing in Cloud Foundry, was, last year was about 275 million, so that number had been shared in one of the earnings calls. Seems like a very well position for the Fortune 1000. I'm always trying to figure out. What is the tam that they can go after? Who does it work for, and who doesn't it? At OpenStack we talked about, well great, the Telco NFV market looks great, but is that 20 or 50 companies. For something like Cloud Foundry, there's lots of big revenue that they can get by knocking down many of these Fortune 1,000's. But, it does seem to be that enterprise grade, therefore there's dollars attached to that. It is something that they, Pivitol, has done a solid job of converting that need, using open source into actual software revenues. Yes, their services and labs are a critical, critical, critical piece of what they do, but it is the subscription of software that they built. Many of their clients were on, I know , a three year subscription and lots of those renewals have started coming now. Expectation is that we could see an IPO by them by 2018. It's been reported I'm sure Michael Dell would love to have another influx of cash that he can help fund all of the the things that he's doing. What's your take on Pivitol coming out of this? >> I mean, from here it looks like Pivotal is very comfortable with it's place and who it's customers are. I didn't see a lot of hedging about, we're going after a different market, or we're going for the individual developer, or we think this can be used by almost anybody. These are big companies we're talking about. In the key note this morning for the foundation, talked about enterprise grade. Talking about security, talking about scale, talking about developer experience. They're not shy about it. They're serious when they say they are an enterprise grade platform. So, which I think is great right? You should know yourself and I really feel like both the foundation and Pivitol, a big part of the foundation, does know itself and knows who's it's customers are. >> Yeah. I guess the only thing that I look at is, so many conferences that I go to, is this a platform that SAS companies are building on? As we look at what the future of companies, and especially in the technology space, are going to look like, yes we have some of these big companies that are using it, but you know there's not the, oh okay, work day and sales force, and all these companies, I haven't seen these companies that are already just software companies using it. It's the industry, older companies that are trying to get more into software and therefore this helps with their digital transformation. The companies that are born in the cloud, I haven't seen that in there, and that's fine. There's definitely a diversity of the marketplace. >> Yeah. If you look at a spectrum, we're saying that all SAS companies are software companies, well those SAS companies may be even more software company than a manufacturer or a finance company. So, I think that's okay. One thing they have to watch with the ecosystem and the customer base is the speed of evolution, the speed of the ecosystem, new entrants coming in. Can they keep the velocity of innovation up? I'm sure that's one thing they're looking at. >> Yeah. It is interesting right? Will the millennials be using Cloud Foundry caring about it? Or is this more the boomer, the older generation that have used it? >> Hey, it's not a job versus Steve McGrady, it's not a job versus Dotnet or Microsoft World anymore, but they're still a lot of job developers and new ones coming in. I think hey, there's still COBOL programmers. >> Alright. Want to give you final takeaways. For me some good quality users talking about their stories. There's reality here as you said, there wasn't any big shift is to what Cloud Foundry or the foundation or what they are doing. There's not some big pivot that they need to do. No pun on Pivotal. But, sometimes you go and you're like, are they tone deaf? Are they drinking their own Kool Aid? I think this group understands where they fit. They're focused on delivering it, definitely a changing ecosystem from previous years and how they fit into that whole cloud environment. I'll give you the final word. >> Sure. That goes with some of what you said. The people seem very productive. They seem happy. They seems super engaged. The show floor when the sessions were in session, there was nobody here on the show floor. People are here to learn. Which means that they're here to get stuff done. It's kind of a no nonsense crowd. So, I really enjoyed the day. >> Alright well, John always a pleasure to catch up with you. Appreciate you sitting in for the day and talking about all of this. You brought some great expertise to the discussion. Big thanks to the team here. We actually had four shows this week from the Cube, so as we get towards almost July 4th, which means that we get a deep breath before the fall tour comes. So, I want to thank everybody for watching. As always, check out thecube.net for all the videos from this show and all the other shows. If you see a show that we're going to be at and you want to be on, get in touch with us. If you have a show that we're not at, please feel free to reach out to us. We're really easy to get in touch with. For my co host John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Once again as always, thank you for watching the Cube and we will see you at the next show.

>> Narrator: Live, from Santa Clara in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE. Covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2017. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation and Pivotal. >> Hi this is Stu Miniman, joined with my cohost, John Troyer. Happy to welcome to the program a first-time guest, Chip Childers, who's the CTO of the Cloud Foundry Foundation. Chip, fresh off the keynote stage, >> Yep. >> how's everything going? >> It's going great. We're really happy with the turnout of the conference. We are really happy with the number of large enterprises that are here to share their story. The really active vendor ecosystem around the project. It's great. It's a wonderful event so far. >> Yeah, I was looking back, I think the last time I came to the Cloud Foundry Show, it was before the Foundation existed, We were in the Hilton in San Francisco, it was obviously a way smaller group. Tell us kind of the goals of the Foundation, doing the event, bringing the community in. >> Yeah, you can think about our goals as being of course, we're the stewards of the intellectual property, the actual software that the vendors distribute. We see our role in the ecosystem as being really two key things. One: we're focused on supporting the users, the customers, and the direct uses of the Open Source software. That's first and foremost. Second though, we want to make sure there is a really robust market ecosystem that is wrapped around this project, right. Both in terms of the distribution, the regional providers that offer Cloud Foundry based services, but also large system integrators that are helping those customers go through digital transformation. Re-platform applications, you know really figure out their way through this process. So, it's all about supporting the users and then supporting the market around it. >> Yeah, as we go to a lot of these events, you know, there are certain themes that emerge. There were two big ones that both of them showed up in what you did in the Keynote. Number one is Multicloud, number two is you got all of these various open sourced pieces, >> Chip: Yep. you know, what fits together, what interlocks together, you know which ones sit side by side. Why don't we start with kind of the open source piece first? Because you're heavily involved in a lot of those. Cloud Foundry, you know, what are the new pieces that are bolting on, or sitting on top, or digging into it, and what's going on there? >> You know, I think first I want to start with a basic philosophy of our upstream community. There are billions of dollars that rely on this platform today. And that continues to grow. Right, because we're showing up in Fortune 500, Global 2000, as well as lots of small start-ups, that are using Cloud Foundry to get code shipped faster. So our community that builds the UpStream software, spends a lot of time being very thoughtful about their technical decisions. So what we release and that what gets productized by the down streams is a complete system. From operating system all the way up to including the various programming languages and frameworks and everything in between. And because we release a complete platform, at a really high velocity, so many people rely on it's quality, we're very thoughtful about when is the right time to build our own, when should we adopt and embrace and continue to support another OpenSource project, so we spend a lot of time really thinking about that. And the areas today that I highlight around specific collaborations include the Open Service Broker API which we actually spun out of being just a Club Foundry implementation. And we embrace other communities, and found a way to share the governance of that. So we move forward as a big industry together. >> Stu: Yeah and speaking on that a little bit more. Very interesting to see. I saw Red Hat for instance speaking with Open Shift, Kubernetes is there. So, how should customers think about this? Are the path wars over? Now you can choose all the pieces that you want? Or, it's probably oversimplifying it. >> I think it's over simplifying it, it depends. You can go try to build your own platform if you want, through a number of serious components, or you can just use something like Cloud Foundry, that has solve for that. But the important thing is that we have specifically designed Cloud Foundry to allow for the backing services to come from anywhere. And so, it's both a differentiator for the various distributions of Cloud Foundry, but also an opportunity for Cloud providers, and even more importantly, it's an opportunity for the enterprise users that live in complex worlds, right? They're going to have multiple platforms, they're going be multiple levels of abstraction from Bms to containers, you know, to the path abstraction even event driven frameworks. We want that all to work really well together. Regardless of the choices you make, because that's what's most valuable to the customers. >> Okay, the other piece, networking you talked about. Why don't you share. >> Yeah, yeah so, besides the Service Broker API, we've added support for what's called Container to Container Networking. I don't necessarily need to dig into the details there, but let's just say that when you're building microservices that the application that the user is experiencing is actually a combination of a lot of different applications. That all talk to each other and rely on each other. So we want to make sure there's a policy-based framework for describing how the webs here is going to talk to the authentication service or is going to talk to the booking service, or the inventory service. They all need to have rules about how they communicate with each other. And we want to do that in the most efficient way possible. So we've adopted the Containing Networking interface as the standard plugin that is now at CNCF, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. We think it's the right abstraction, we think it's great. It gives us access to all the fascinating work that is going on around software networking, overlay networking, industry standard API plugin to our policy-driven framework. >> Along the same theme, Kubo, a big new news project also kind of integration of some Cloud Foundry concepts with a broader ecosystem, in this case another CNCF project, Kubernetes. Could you speak a little bit to that? >> The Kubernetes community is doing a great job creating great container driven experience. You know that abstraction is all about the container. It's not about, you know, the code. So it's different than Cloud Foundry. There are workloads that make sense to run in one or the other. And we want to make sure that they run really well. Right, so the problem that we're solving with the Kuber project is what deploys Kubernetes? What supports Kubernetes if there is an infrastructure adage and a node goes offline? Right, because it does a great job of restarting containers, but if you have ten nodes in a cluster, and then now you're down to nine, that's a problem. So what Bosh does, is it takes care of solving the node outage level problem. You can also do rolling upgrades that are seamless, no downtime for the Kubernetes cluster. It brings a level of operational maturity to the Kubernetes users that they may not have had otherwise. >> Chip, can you bring us inside a little bit the creation of Kubo, is that something that the market and customers drove towards you? I talked to a couple other Cloud Foundry ecosystem members that were doing some other ways of integrating in Kubernetes. So what lead to this way of deploying it with Bosh? >> Yeah, absolutely so, it came out of a direct collaboration between Pivotal and Google. And it was driven based on Pivotal customer demand. It also, if you speak with people from Google that are involved in the project, they also see it as a need, for the Kubernetes ecosystem. So it's driven based on real-world large financial services companies that wanted to have the multiple abstractions available, they wanted to do it with a common operational platform that is proven mature that they've already adopted. And then as that collaboration board, the fruit of the project, and it was announced by Pivotal and Google several months back, they realized that they needed to move it to the vendor neutral locations so that we can continue to expand the community that can work on it, that can build up the story. >> The other topic I raised at the beginning of the interview, was the Multicloud. So in a panel, Microsoft, Google, MTC for Amazon was there. All of the Cloud guys are going to tell you we have the best platform and can do the best things for you. >> Of course they do. >> How do you balance the "We want to live in a multicultural Cloud world" and be able to go there versus "Oh I'm going to take standard plus and get in a little bit deeper to make sure that we're stickier with the customers there." What role does Cloud Foundry play? What have you seen in the marketplace for that? >> Well the public lab providers are, if you look at the services that they offer, you can roughly categorize them with two things. One, are the infrastructure building blocks. Two, are the higher level services, like their database capabilities, their analytics capabilities, log aggregation, you know, and they all have a portfolio that varies, some have specific things that are very similar. So when we talk about MultiCloud we talk about Cloud Foundry as a way to make use of those common capabilities, now they're going to differentiate based on speeds and feeds, availability, whatever they choose to, but you can then as a user have choice. And then secondarily, that Open Service Broker initiative is what's really about saying "great, there's also all these really valuable additional capabilities, that, as a user, I may choose to integrate with a Google machine learning-service, or I may choose to integrate with a wonderful Microsoft capability, or an Amazon capability." And we just want to make that easy for a developer to make that choice. >> Chip, Cloud Founder was very early in terms of a concept of a platform of services, let's not call it platform as a service right now. But you know, this platform that going to make developers lives easier, multi-target, MultiCloud we call it now, on from your laptop to anywhere. And it's been a really interesting discussion over the last couple years as this parallel container thread can come up with Kubernetes and Mesosphere and all the orchestration tools, and the focus has been on orchestration tools. And I've always thought Cloud Foundry was kind of way ahead of the game in saying "wait a minute, there's a set of services that you're going to have for full life-cycles, day two operation, at scale that you all are going to have to pull together from components." As we're doing this interview here, and this year at Cloud Foundry Summit are there anything that you think people don't kind of realize that over and over again people who are using Cloud Foundry go, "Wow I'm really glad "I had logging or identity management," or what are some of the frameworks that people sometimes don't realize is in there that actually is a huge time-savor. >> Yeah, there are a lot of operational capabilities in the Cloud Foundry platform. When you include both our Bosh layer, as well as the elastic runtime which is in the developer centers experience-- >> John: Anything that people don't often realize is in there? >> Well, I think that the right way to think of it is, it's all the things you need in one application, right? So we've been doing this for years as developers. In the applications operators team, we've been doing it. We've just been doing it via bunch of tickets, we've been doing it via bunch of scripts. What Cloud Foundry does is it takes all of those capabilities you need to really trust a platform to operate something on your behalf, and give you the right view into it, right? The appropriate telemetry, log aggregation, and know that there's going to be help monitoring there. It makes it really easy. Right, so we were talking earlier about the haiku, that Onsi Fakhouri from Pivotal had authored, it's appropriate. It's a promise that a platform makes. And platforms designed to let a user trust that the declarative nature of asking a platform to do X, Y, or Z, will be delivered. >> Chip, we've been hearing Pivotal talks a lot about Spring, when Cloud Foundry's involved. Is it so much so that the Foundation needs to be behind that, or support that? How does that interact and work? >> Well, we're super supportive of all the languages in the framework communities that are out there. You know, even if you pick a particular vendor, Pivotal in this case has a very strong investment in the Spring, Spring Cloud, Spring Boot, they're doing really amazing things. But that's also, it's our software, you know, they steward that community, so all the other vendors actually get the advantage of that. Let's take Dot Net and Microsoft. Microsoft open sourced Dot Net. So now you can run Dot Net applications on Linux. They're embrace of the container details and the APIs and their operating system is making it so that now it can also run on Windows. So the whole Microsoft technology stack, languages and frameworks, they matter quite a bit to the enterprise as well. So we see ourselves as supportive of all of these communities, right? Even ones like the Ruby community. When there's an enterprise developer that chooses to use something like Ruby, with the Ruby on Rails framework, if they use Cloud Foundry, they're getting the latest and greatest version of that language, framework, they know that it's secure, they know that it's going to be patched for them. So it's actually a great experience for that developer, that's working with the language. So, we like to support all of them, we're big fans of any that work really well with the platform and maybe integrate deeper. But it's a polyglot platform. >> We want to give you the final word. People take away from Cloud Foundry Summit 2017, what would you want them to take away? >> Yeah the simple takeaway that I can give you is that this is an absolutely enterprise grade open source ecosystem. And you don't hear that often, right? Because normally we talk about products, being enterprise great. >> Did somebody say in the keynote enterprise great mean that there's a huge salesforce that's going to try sell you stuff? (Chip laughs) Well that's coming from the buying side of the market for years. And you know, it was a bit of a joke. What is "enterprise great?" Well, it means that there's a piece of paper that says, this product will cost x dollars and the salesperson is offering it to you. So of course it's going to be enterprise great. But really, we see it as four key things, right? It's about security, it's about being well-integrated, it's about being able to scale to the needs of even the largest enterprises, and it's also about that great developer experience. So, Cloud Foundry is an ecosystem and all of our downstream distributions get the advantage of this really robust and mature technical community that is producing this software. >> Chip, really appreciate you sharing all the updates with us, and appreciate the foundation's support to bring theCUBE here. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from The Cloud Foundry Summit 2017, you're watching theCUBE. (techno music)