>> Narrator: From the VMware campus in Palo Alto, California, it's theCUBE, covering women transforming technology. (electro music) >> Hey, welcome to theCUBE, I'm Lisa Martin on the ground at VMware in Palo Alto at the third annual, Women Transforming Technology event. Really excited to be here. I am joined by Shelley Correll, the director of The Clayman Institute for Gender Research at Stanford. Shelley, exciting day, welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you, good to be here! >> Lisa: Big news. >> Very big news! >> Lisa: So you're also the founding director of The Center for Advancements of Women's Leadership. The Clayman Institute has been around since 1974, but you've been partnering with Vmware for the last five years? >> Shelley: Yes, in a variety of ways, yes. >> So talk to us about the big announcement today with Vmware and The Clayman Institute. >> Well we're very exited, we've been working with VMware for five years, as you said, in a variety of different capacities, And have really been engaged with them over the idea that we could better connect academic research with practice. And so, the news we had to announce today is that they are investing 15 million dollars into our efforts and we're going to be launching a new lab that's going to be focused on advancing women's leadership. >> Lisa: Phenomenal. Talk to us about some of the foci that you're going to be focusing on to accelerate the change we need, not just to bring more eyes and ears in dollars to it but accelerate it. >> I'm glad you used that word, that's exactly what it's about, it's accelerating. We come into this with research that shows very clearly that the progress, in terms of moving women into leadership, has just all but stalled. The progress we're making is very slow, and if we just sit back and wait, we're not going to see, you and I aren't going to see gender equality, in our lives, our daughter's lives. It's not going to happen. And so we're asking ourselves, what can we do to accelerate change? And so, to me, one of the most important things that we need to be doing is bridging the gap between academic scholarship, which tells a lot about the barriers to women's leadership, with the kind of activities that organizations are doing, the diversity initiatives their putting in place. If we can join forces, then I think we can better accelerate change. And so that was kind of the idea behind this lab. We really have three main things that we're hoping to accomplish. One is to diagnose the barriers to women's advancement, across all kinds of diversity that women occupy and own. So understanding those barriers, and then second is piloting solutions, working within companies to develop interventions that we can put in place, so we can learn how to get beyond the barriers. That's the kind of next thing that we're doing. And third, is just to be a hub of information. We're going to take these learnings from our research and translate them into tools that people can use, to be able to put research into action and in their own organizations. So that's the three-prong goal of this new laboratory. >> Lisa: So exciting. And it's something that, you know, as we talk about, it's 2018 and this is still such a massive issue. It's been very widely known for a long time that the numbers of women in technical roles in technology is what, below 25%. But something I found interesting when I was doing some research on you is that there's also this motherhood penalty that I was unaware. Tell us a little bit about what that is and how is that something that maybe this new innovation lab will help to eliminate? >> Right, and I think it's important because when we think about putting solutions into place, we know that they're not going to be, sort of, one-size-fits-all solutions. They're going to differ for different kinds of women. And in my own research on the motherhood penalty, what we found are very clear gaps between women who are childless and women who are mothers. And in fact, the wage penalty that we usually talk about, the gender wage gap, is largely a gap between mothers and childless women. And so, we got to asking ourselves, why? Why would a women who's a mother be so penalized relative to a childless woman? So we've got gender inequality, and now we've got this motherhood penalty on top of that. And so, our research found that if you take a resume for a woman and you just add in subtle information that she's a mother, >> Lisa: Like on the PTA, or something. >> The PTA association, that people are 100% less likely to recommend her for hire. >> 100%? >> 100%, yeah. You know, it's a huge gap there, and so, as we dig deeper, what we see is that people's stereotypes about mothers, are that mothers are so committed to their families that they couldn't possibly be committed to their job. Every one of us who work with mothers in the workplace know that's not the case, right? But yet that's the stereotype that's holding mothers back, in addition to what we find for women in general, if you will. >> So if a man on his resume has that he is a soccer coach or a baseball coach, that is not factored into the decision to not hire him? >> Well it is, but guess what? It advantages him, it doesn't disadvantage him. >> Lisa: Advantages? Yes, so for fathers, we find that people see fathers as more committed to the job than childless men. So, we're seeing how parenthood works differently for men and women in the workplace. So I think one of the barriers we want to get past is the effects of biases on how people are evaluated, and they're not just gender biases. They're biases about gender, but also about parenthood, about race, about ethnicity, about sexuality. I mean, all of those things intersect in complex ways. So, it means that we're going to see different barriers for different types of women, if you will, and that means also that we're probably going to need to have different kinds of solutions as well. >> Absolutely, so something that interests me is, you know, in the last six months, me too movement exploded on the scene, times up, Brotopia, a recent book out by Emily Chang, that is shocking to say the least, very informative, enlightening. When those movements popped up and there was a, sort of, unlikely alliance with Hollywood, I'm curious, we're you like yes, good, we have some momentum here that we need to be able to leverage to making the gaps, as you said, there's so many that women face, more sensible intact, was that kind of a let's get on the same bandwagon? Yes, you have to ride these waves when they happen. The problems that me too is identifying are certainly not new problems, and this has been going on as long as women have been in the work place, but the attention to it is what's new, and so, as a scholar when there's attention to important social problem that you research, you ride that wave. We've got the world's attention now. Let's use that attention to take the messages about what we know from research and the strategies we have and get them out to people that need them, so it is an opening that allows us to take the me too, kind of, moment that we're in and really turn it into a movement that produces sustainable change. >> We need to get our own hashtag. (laughter) What are some of the things that say in this next, what are we almost and half way through 2018, which is kind of scary. What are some of the, maybe, the small ones or the quick ones that you think with this new VMware partnership that you're going to be able to identify and uncover in 2018? >> We've been working a lot on ways to reduce unconscious biases in the workplace. I think some of the projects that we're launching are really about going into organizations and diagnosing where a bias might be affecting how they're evaluating women at the points of hire, at promotion, as we're thinking about who to put all the stretch assignments. So identifying the way those biases are occurring in workplaces and then working with managers in those organizations to design tools to help get beyond those biases. This is some work that we have stared initially that we're now expanding to more research sites and so I think that's one of the first things to do is to really go in and try to remove these biases that don't, they're not good for women, but they're not good for the organization either. If you're biased against women, what that means is you're not valuing women's talent and any organization wants to accurately assessing the talent of people in their workplace. >> I think I read in a press release this morning that a McKinsey report that said that organization, if I can, yes. According to McKinsey, companies with diversity on their executive teams are 21% more profitable than those who lack diversity. Profits. >> I know, it's profit. We see it with innovation, too. It makes sense if you think about it, right. If our biases we causing us to see women as less talented than they are and maybe men as more talented then they are, what that means is we're not hiring on average the most productive, talented people. I think all organizations want to source and hire the best people they can, and so we're moving these biases as one way of doing that. And, when we remove those biases, I think improvements or diversity will follow. >> When you look at a company that's been around for a long time and you think wow, culture is very slow to change. >> Shelley: Right. >> How do you advise organizations that have been around for decades that are predominantly male led, especially at the executive level, to just be more aware and open to changing the culture to, you know, maybe it's hey, you could be 21% more profitable. >> Shelley: Exactly. >> Who doesn't want that? >> Shelley: Who doesn't want that, yeah. >> How do you have the conversation with an accumbent about cultural change? >> Right, and I think sometimes people think culture is just sort of what it is and cannot be changed, but we can make small wins, small improvements in that culture, and so one of the things that has been most effective in our research is to go in and work with managers on trying to improve how they're hiring people, how they're promoting people, and so the conversation isn't really about culture. It is at a deep level, but it doesn't seem like that at the surface level. It's really about how can you more accurately asses talent, and when you start asking that question, what you start seeing is the ways that you were assessing talent before were flawed in some ways and they were flawed in a way that was limiting your ability to see women's abilities and their talents. The conversation really is just about doing what I think we all want to do, which is truly evaluating people based on their merits, and I think if that's the message, a lot more people are on board with that. The other thing I'll say is when we had, we were working with a company who was telling us that one of the ways they assessed people for promotion was they wanted their leaders to be very responsive to people in the organization, and that's a great value to have, right, to be responsive. When we probe them about how do you know when someone's responsive, they didn't really. First they couldn't articulate how they were evaluating that. What it became clear is without clear criteria for assessing responsiveness, they're implicit measures were like how quickly does this person respond to email. They realized that women weren't being as quick responding to email, especially during the dinner hours. I think you and I can know exactly why that is. >> Right. >> They they got to starting thing, well that isn't maybe the very, that's not a very good measure of leader responsiveness, and they went back to look at their responses from women and they were more elaborate, they were more detailed, they were more helpful, and so the measure they were using was sort of, it was biased against women, but it was also not productive for what they were trying to do. These are the kind of small wins that open people eyes to the fact that they could do things differently that would be good for diversity and inclusion and would be good for what they're trying to do as an organization, the bottom line as well. >> Wow, what are the other things. We talked about, you know, the numbers of women in technical roles is very small, under 25%. Another big challenge that we have in technology is attrition, and the fact that more women leave tech for other industries than women leave other industries. >> Shelley: Exactly. >> What are some of the things that your research has shown that companies can do to also, not just focus on bringing in young talent or working with universities on STEM programs, but for women that are maybe in the middle of their, whether they're thinking about the leaving the to have a family or simply this is not the right environment for me. That retention from middle career. What are some of the things that you found there? >> Yeah, and I'll say too about, I think one of the sort of narratives that people tell themselves in companies is that women are leaving tech to have children, but women don't leave tech to have children at any higher rate, and actually a lower rate than other professions, so it's not, that's not the reason they're tech at a higher rate than some other places. There's something else going on there. I think working on improving the inclusion and the environment is really important for retaining women. Surveys that sort of show why people left their jobs find that in tech, a big reason women leave tech compared to other places is they don't feel like they're supported in the workplace, more so than in other places, even including other STEM fields, like science and things like that. Higher exit rate because they don't feel included in the workplace, so the question is, what's the barrier there? What are we doing in our workplaces that women in tech don't feel included and what can we do to change that. I think, again, removing some of these biases, if you're in a workplace where you constantly feel like your talent is not being appreciated, that's one way you quickly don't feel included as a technical worker. I think this sort of cultural change that we're talking about is probably even more important for retention than it is for hiring. >> Do you think that younger companies maybe start us maybe, you know three to four years old or less than 10 year's, we'll say, have a better chance at being able to morph quickly and pivot than a larger company that's been around for decades? >> Yeah, I mean, it's much easier to get things right to begin with, you know, so people sometimes ask you know when they're founding a company how soon, you know, do we need to have a woman on board, and my answer is always as quickly as possible, and I you get to 10 employees with no women, you're already behind the curve. Really, kind of starting off with the idea that we want to get the culture right to begin with so that we don't end up having to scramble the eggs later down the road, and that's one of the things we've learned from working with VMware, is early on in the founding of this company, there was an attempt to create the kind of culture that I think more companies are wanting to emulate today. >> We've got Betsy Sutter coming on a little bit later and I'm really curious to talk to her about coming on years ago, when VMware was a start up 100 people. >> Shelley: Exactly. >> And now being in this chief people officer role of an organization of 20,000 and here we are at VMware today walking into a room of females who are here to really kind of embody what the charter of this consortium of WT Squared is, is connecting and inspiring, but supporting women and tech of all levels, right, not just here in Silicon Valley, but beyond as well and having the powers coming together from industry, from acidemia, from non-profits is, it's a very, the vibe when we were in the key note just an hour ago was so palpable that there's certainly that we will create change. >> Betsy's so inspirational to me in this regard, is that she has been here since 2001 and was sort of critical to getting the culture in place at that point in time and, you know, it's not that VMware doesn't have challenges with hiring and retaining a tech. All companies do, but they've created a culture from the beginning that I think is kind of a model for what companies are wanting to do today. >> Last thing before we wrap, here, is we had the opportunity to listen to Laila Ali and so cool. >> Shelley: So cool. >> I mean, just to hear a confident women, who was probably born with a natural confidence, that women have and some women don't, but to hear her talk about hey, sometimes this interwar, the flame is out or it's low and I, too, have to say this is my purpose. This is my passion. I don't want to have to look around and constantly think I'm in a man's sport. I know, this is my sport. I thought just that having that world kind of talk to us, women intact to say hey, it's going to take reminding yourself often what your purpose is, what you're passion is, but she challenged us to do that and I just thought it was a really encouraging, inspiring message for everyone to hear so early on a Tuesday morning. >> We run sort of a leadership program for high school girls and this whole issue of purpose is something that we really stress as well is when you're trying to lead and people aren't following, stop and ask yourself what was the purpose in doing what you're doing and articulate that purpose to others and that's the way you can kind of bring people along. I just loved her example today about when you're not feeling confident, go back and ask yourself why, the question of why. It's too easy to go through life just doing things and losing our sense of purpose and that really is a good source of confidence because you're doing something for a reason that really matters to you. That will help recharge you. >> Absolutely. Shelly, thanks so much for stopping by. >> I enjoyed it, I enjoyed it. >> TheCUBE this morning and sharing your purpose and the exciting news of what VMware and the Clayman Institute are going to do. We look forward to hearing some of the great stuff that comes out in the next few years. >> That sounds great. Thank you, nice to talk to you. >> And we want to thank you. You're watching theCUBE. We are on the ground at VMware at the 3rd Annual Women Transforming Technology event. I'm Lisa Martin. Thanks for watching. (funky music)

>> From Palo Alto, California, it's theCUBE. Covering VMware, Women Transforming Technology 2019. Brought to you by VMware. >> Hi, Lisa Martin, on the ground with theCUBE, at Vmware in Palo Alto, California at the fourth annual Women Transforming Technology event, WT-squared. Love this event. So excited to welcome back to theCUBE Betsy Sutter, VMware's Chief People Officer. Betsy, this event is incredible, year after year. >> Yeah. >> How do you do it? >> I don't do it. A team of people do it. But I love it and I love it that you're here. You're as passionate about this as I am. Our fourth! And this one is bigger and better than ever. I love it. And, you know, it's really all about just connecting women so we can continue to innovate and shape the future. So, super fun! >> It is super fun. One of the things that I love is that as soon as you walk onto the campus in the morning, ahead of the event, even walking up to registration, you can feel positivity, sharing, collaboration, experiences being shared. This community movement-- you literally can feel it. And then we walked in, your opening keynote this morning. >> Yeah, wasn't she amazing? Joy Buolamwini >> Wow. Amazing. What she was sharing. Breakthrough data of all the biases that are being built into just facial recognition software alone. >> Yeah. >> Her passion for highlighting the bias and then identifying it and then mitigating it, that passion was not only coming from her, but the entire audience. In person, I can imagine the livestream, just got it. >> Yeah. You know, she is amazing. I mean, she's an innovator. I mean, she's a brainiac. She's funny, she's artsy. But she's an innovator. But what's interesting about her is she's an inclusive innovator. Right? It's all about inclusion and I love her approach to this. I just spent an hour with her in a Fireside Chat where a number of us got to have a conversation with her and she's about as interesting as anybody I've ever met in terms of where she's taking this research so that she can create, just a better world. >> And she's doing that. One of the things that was, the word inclusivity kind of popped up, and intersectionality, a number of times, where she was showing data, AI data, from Microsoft, IBM, Face++, and just showing the massive differences in those data sets alone, so the whole inclusivity theme was very paralleled, in my opinion, but she's actually getting these companies to start evaluating their data sets to change that so that Oprah Winfrey, for example, face recognition doesn't come up as a male. >> That's right. Yeah, she has done some interesting, interesting work, and she's not approaching it as if it's a race issue in particular, right. She's taking a completely different, very positive approach, to highlighting a real problem. I mean, we knew that inclusion is a challenge in technology, but inclusion in artificial intelligence is by far worse, and I love it that she's unpacking that. >> I also love that, as a marketer, I loved how she formed the Algorithmic Justice League. >> Right. >> I couldn't think of a better name, myself. But that she's seeing three tenets of that. One is highlight the bias. >> That's right. >> And I thought, that's awareness. There needs to be more awareness of that because my mind was blown seeing these models today, and then she brings in Amazon and shows them, look at your data sets. >> Right. >> And so there needs to be more awareness, consistent awareness, it's kind of classic marketing of, there are a lot of challenges, but AI is so pervasive, I can imagine a lot of baby boomers probably have iPhones with facial recognition and don't understand, wow, even that, unlocking my phone, is a problem. How deep does this go across emerging technologies that are being developed today? >> That's right. And then she just talks about, in such broad terms, I mean she has a global mind around the social impact that this is having, whether it's in artwork, whether it's in self-driving car technologies, whatever it is. I mean, it's huge. And she's able to kind of look out and think about it in that light. And given the work that we're doing at VMware around inclusion and diversity, it's kind of a fresh new angle to really unpacking the layers of complexity that face these issues. >> Yeah, you're right. That was a thing that also caught my attention was there were so many layers of bias. >> Yeah, yeah. >> We can think of, you know, the numbers of women, or lack thereof, in technology. One of the things that Joy said, kind of along the parallels of layers was, the under-represented majority, as she says, it's women and people of color. >> That's right. >> It's layer upon layer upon layer. >> It is. >> Wow. Just cracking the surface. >> She's just scratching things, but the way she's doing her approach, I think, just brings a whole new light to this. I'm very grateful that she was able to speak to all of us, right. It's really about bringing women together to have these kinds of conversations so we can start to think about how we want to innovate and shape the future. She also touches on just this aspect of communities, which I love. And, you know, I've long said that people join communities, not companies, per se, and one of the things that we've done at VMware is tried to think about how do you create an inclusive culture, if you will, that embraces all sorts of communities. And Joy just started talking about a whole new dimension to how we think about that, which was fun. >> So you have been at the helm of people at VMware for a long time. >> I have. >> Lots of transformation. >> Yeah. >> I'm curious to get your, if you look back at the last four years now of WT-squared, how have you learned from even just speakers like Joy and helped to transform not just WT-squared but VMware, its diversity and inclusion efforts in and of themself? >> Yeah, you know, one of the things that I love about VMware and I love about WT-squared is that it's really a consortium or a collective of companies coming together, so this is not a VMware branded event, or a VMware event just by itself. It's just a collective. And then we try and broaden that circle so we can have more and more conversation. And I think that's what I'm most pleased with, I mean, we work hard at making sure that this collective is involved from the get-go in terms of, what do we want to talk about, so we can have the real and relevant conversations about inclusion and diversity, especially as women in tech, which, in some regards, is getting better, but in many, it's just not, and so how do you double down on that in an authentic way and really get business results. >> Exactly. It's all about getting business results. >> It is. >> One of the things that surprises me, in some cases, is when you see, whether it's from McKenzie or whatnot, different studies that show how much more profitable businesses are with women at the executive levels, and it just, that seems like a no-brainer, yet there's so many, the lack of women in technology, but also the attrition rates. >> Yeah. >> Really staggering, if you look at it, compared to any other industries. >> That's right. And, you know, we have a longstanding relationship with Stanford. >> Yes. >> The Clayman Institute. VMware helped found the VMware Stanford Women's Leadership Innovation Lab, which I'm exceedingly proud of. But, yeah, research shows this over and over. But one of the things that I love about my work is bridging that into how corporations operate and how people just work at work, and so that keeps me intellectually engaged, I'll say that, for sure. But, yeah, that is the big challenge. >> I'm also, what I love, just observing the attendees at the event, is you see all age levels. >> Yeah, I love that, too. >> And you have the tracks, the Emerging Leaders track for those who are younger, earlier in their career, The Executive track, the Technical track, and you've got a track about of sharing best practices, which I also love, or just hearing stories of, "How did you face this obstacle, maybe it wasn't, that didn't cause you to turn, or to leave the industry?" I think those are so important to help share. "Oh my God, I'm going through the same thing," for example. But might just help the next, or not just the next generation, but even those of us who might be middle-career from not leaving and going, "Okay, maybe it's the situation, I need to get into a different department, a different company, but I love technology and I'm going to stay no matter what." >> Yeah. Keeping those conversations elevated is one aspect of this, but then to your point, the cross-pollination of all these different kinds of women and what they've experienced in tech, the panel today was amazing, right. We had Ray, we had Lisa, and we had Susan. All different perspectives, different generations, but talking about sort of their challenges as they've navigated this, and where they all want to see it go. So I do think there's a bit of a common vision for where we want this to go, which is wonderful, but bringing all these different perspectives is the differential. And that's what we do here. We try and replicate that. And what will happen all through the day as I go to those different tracks, I'll hear from these different women and the questions are always just a blast to hear, right, because I learn so much from what's top-of-mind, what's keeping people up at night as they venture into tech and continue into tech. >> Anything in particular that surprises you? >> You know, one young woman asked me about my concern around communication and interaction because of how technology's affected how people do that-- rarely face-to-face like you and I are right now. And there're so many other visual and sensory cues that go into having a conversation with another human being, so we had a great conversation about what's good about it from a technology standpoint, and what's bad about it, and I think that's actually what Joy was talking about in her talk today, as well. But I was pleased that a very young person asked me that question. I know people of my generation, we talk about it, but it was fun to hear, kind of inspiring to hear a younger person say, "Is this all good?" >> Well and you're right, it probably was a nice, pleasant, refreshing surprise because we think of younger generations as, kind of, you say, cloud-native or born of the cloud, born on the phone, who are so used to communicating through different social media platforms. To hear that generation saying, you know, or even bringing it to our attention, like, "Shouldn't we be actually talking in person or by using technology like video conferencing and zoom things for engaging?" Think of how many people wouldn't fall asleep in meetings if video conferencing was required? >> That's right. That's exactly right. And another woman, a little further along in her career, what was weighing on her was how she stayed being a responsible and ethical person when she doesn't really know all the ingredients of what she's helping to create. And that's just a mindset that I haven't heard before. I thought that was wonderful. >> That is. Because we often talk about responsibility and accountability with respect to data science or AI, for example. It's interesting to hear an individual contributor talking about, "Where do I fall in that accountability/responsibility spectrum?" Is not a common question. >> No, and you know, we think we're creating a world of more transparency but, really, when you're coding you're not really sure what might happen with that code. And I thought Susan Fowler did a lovely job talking about that today on the panel, as well. That there's a huge responsibility in terms of what you're doing. So connecting those dots, understanding all the ingredients, I think corporations like VMware, and VMware does this in large part today, it gets harder, it's more complex, but we're going to have to answer those questions about what kind of pie or cake are we really baking with this, right? >> Exactly. Exactly. Could you have, if you looked back to when you first joined VMware, envisioned all of the transformation and the strength in community and numbers that you're helping to achieve with women transforming technology? >> I really couldn't. I mean, the industry is amazing, you know, I was at the right place at the right time and got to ride this tech wave. It's been great. No, I couldn't have imagined it, and now things are moving at an unprecedented place, things are much more complex. I have to call my adult children to get input onto this, that, and the other. >> (laughs) >> But no, it is a dream come true. It's been an absolute honor and privilege for me to be a part of this. I love it. >> When you talk with VMware partners or customers, are they looking to-- Betsy, how have you been able to build this groundswell and maintain it? >> Yeah, you know, my focus is primarily on the culture and the environment of the company, and I'm a really good listener. So that's the key. >> It is key. You just listen and pay attention to what people are saying, what matters to them, what's bothering them, and you continue to hold on to, sort of, those, you know, those North Stars of what you're trying to build and I always knew that I wanted to build the sustainable cultures, something that would last the test of time. So we're at 21 years. I've done 19 of them, so it's been great. You know, but you want to make sure you keep that rebar in the ground as you continue to build up. This community is solid. They're doin' it. Yeah, it's great. >> And it must be receptive. We talked about companies or leaders or businesses being receptive to change. I think I talked about that with Caroline and Shannon, who were part of that panel, and said, you know, oftentimes, we're talking with leaders, again, business units, companies, who aren't receptive to that change. Cultural change is really difficult, but it's essential. I was talking with Michael Dell a few months ago at Boomi World and said, "How have you managed as Dell has grown so massively to change the culture in a way that, you know, enables that growth?" It's a really hard thing to do. But for companies to do digital transformation and IT transformation, the culture, the people have to be receptive. I think, to one of your strengths, they have to be willing to listen. >> Yeah. And you never really arrive, right. So you constantly are in beta mode in the world, and so if you never assume that you've arrived, then you can pause, or that you just constantly want to beta things, then you have an edge, and I think Michael Dell's clearly got vision around that, right. I know Pat Gelsinger does, too. And so I like just partnering with those great minds, those great business and strategic minds, and then just building on the people component or the cultural component. But I, too, I'm constantly trying to produce new products and pay attention to what the customer wants. >> When you see things in the news like some of the harassment issues, say, for example, that Uber has experienced, I imagine you're watching the news or reading it and you're thinking, if I could just say three things to those people. When you see things like that, what are the top three things you would recommend that, not in reaction, though, but how can that culture change to deliver the customer experience, ultimately, that they need to, but what are some of the things that you think, these are easy fixes? >> Yeah, I think in watching a lot of my companies in the industry and how they've responded, for me, my advice would be, you should elevate that conversation. That conversation's not going to go away. And so you need to elevate it, give it a lot of sunlight and oxygen, really understand it, don't try and move away from it, don't push it down. And that's something we do at VMware, we're constantly elevating the conversation. One of the things I love about this culture, it's made me a lot better at what I do, is I can always answer the question, "Why are we doing that?" And so that's, why are we doing that? And if I can't answer why, we have a problem. And a why just sort of symbolizes intellectual curiosity, right, so that's what we're trying to keep alive and that's what I tell my other colleagues in the industry is just keep that conversation going: there's no quick fix to this, people are complex, don't pretend you really know. So elevate it and let's get to really know each other a lot better. >> And there's so much good that can come from any sort of blight or negativity, there really is, but you're right. Especially in this day and age, with everything being on camera, you can't hide. >> And, you know, it's okay to admit that you made a mistake. >> I agree. >> It's really okay. And so there's something about that that we've got to get back. >> I think it's one of the most admirable things of any human trait or corporation is just admitting, ah, this was the wrong turn, >> Right. >> I said the wrong thing. >> You know what, we made a mistake. We've course-corrected. >> I'm human. >> Yes. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> So we talked about Joy opening things off today and Ashley Judd-- >> I know, I can't wait. >> I bet you can't wait. She is the closing keynote. What are the things that inspire you about Ashley's work? >> I just think that she's wicked-smart. And I think she's using her platform in a really powerful way. And for her to want to come here and speak to us just reflects her passion, and the juxtaposition of Joy with Ashley is fabulous, right. Really gives you a lot to think about, so I can't wait to see Ashley. >> And just even juxtaposing those two, like you said, you can just see massive diversity there, in thought, in background, and experience, in life experiences, but both coming from different perspectives and different angles that can be so inspirational >> Yeah. To all of us in the audience. >> Yeah, and positive. You know, they're taking this positive approach to this movement and, yeah, very different women, but both really, really smart, very passionate. Resilient, clearly. And persistent. They're going to keep movin' it forward. >> Persistence is the key. So, great event so far. It's not even over, but what are your dreams for next year's event? >> Oh, we just have to keep going. I'd love to see more companies join the consortium. We've learned a couple things about, we just are going to start the conversation earlier about what we want the event to be. We love hosting people on the campus, obviously, and luckily we have terrific weather today, but I would just like to see companies come together and have the conversation, and that was really the impetus for this, is that we wanted to make sure we got a lot of diverse perspectives that were dealing with these real issues, and let's talk about what women in technology at all levels, as you pointed out, what's top-of-mind for them? And what do they need to have the conversation about? Let's bring 'em together, let's let 'em connect and start to innovate and create the future. >> Well I'm already looking forward to next year, Betsy. >> Yeah, me too. >> It's been such a pleasure to talk to you again. >> Thank you, Lisa. >> Thank you so much for spending time with me on theCUBE today. >> Thank you. >> Appreciate your time. >> Super fun. >> Good. You're watching theCUBE. I'm Lisa Martin on the ground at Women Transforming Technology, the fourth annual. Thanks for watching. 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(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From the VMware campus in Palo Alto, CA Its theCUBE covering Women Transforming Technology. (music beats) >> I'm Lisa Martin with theCUBE and we are on the ground in Palo Alto at VMware for the third annual Women Transforming Technology event. Excited to be talking with Stephanie Joe, next Vice President of Operations in the Networking and Security business here at VMware. Hi Stephanie. >> Hi, thanks for having me. >> Lisa: Thanks for joining me today >> Lisa: Absolutely, our pleasure >> So, you've been in tech for a long time at VMware, for about five years. >> Stephanie: Yes >> Tell me a little bit about your journey in tech. Was it, did you want to get into software and technology many years ago? >> Stephanie: So being actually a native of the Silicone Valley and being raised in this in California, my father worked for a high tech company for 30 plus years. And so, for me it was natural to go into technology. I'm very much of a finance person and numbers person, so it gave me the opportunity to take my desire for math and my desire for finance and be close to products and be close to innovation. So, I would say yes, from early on it was no question that I would be working in technology. Its a great place to be in the Silicone Valley for that. >> Lisa: It is. It really is. >> yeah yeah >> So you were in finance for a long time >> Stephanie: Yes >> then moved into operations. >> Stephanie: Yes, a couple years ago. >> How did you get that courage to go, you know what I've been doing this for a long time >> Stephanie: Yeah >> and you mentioned your dad, you know, working in it for 30 years. >> Stephanie: Yes >> I think parent's generation was you get a job and you do the same thing for 30 or 40 years >> Stephanie: In the same company >> Yes. How did you get that courage internally to go you know what I want to try something different. >> Yeah, so being in finance, I had the opportunity to work in many different groups within the finance organization and as I worked in finance, I got the opportunity to take a look at what was important to me and what was interesting to me and although I love my numbers piece, I also was very much interested in process and operations and holding people accountable. And, I got to a point, honestly, where I was in finance and I tried many different pieces of finance, and I got to a point where okay, what am I going to do next? Um, and there's also something that's been important to me is constantly re reinvigorating myself, and rebranding myself, not rebranding but continuing my brand. And as part of that, operations was just the next natural piece and I had thought about making that dive many different times in my finance career, but there was always either that risk of oh its a little scary, or there was something else I still wanted to do within finance. And an opportunity came along a couple of years ago, and specifically in the networking security space. And VMware, it is one of the highest priorities within the company and because of the technology, and because of the opportunity, I said you know, now is the right time to go do this. Now is the right time to take that leap, take that chance. And, at the same time, I also knew I had the backing of supporters and mentors to help me be successful in that move. Um, I knew it wasn't going to be a slam dunk. I've always told people you almost have to do that next thing that you know you're going to be able to contribute, yet at the same time, its a little scary And, you have to have the confidence and the planning around that confidence to go for it. Um and take that risk. And its been worthwhile. It has been a nice change. Its given me new energy and I think I know I am contributing to the company. >> And it must feel good. >> Stephanie: Yes >> You talked about, touched on a number of points we have heard today at the Women Transforming Technology event where we, you know things were kicked off this morning, ahh with Laylah Ali who talked about having, finding that courage, and that confidence. Um, but also needing to be mentioned being around an organization, whether its an organization or just a group who support whatever change that you are thinking of making, >> Yeah >> And I do think some change that's scary is good >> Yeah >> Ah, but I think that is one of the hallmarks of women transforming technology >> Stephanie: Yes >> is this consortium of industry, nonprofits, academia coming together to to confront head on the issues, the diversity issues that we're facing. >> Not just as women in technologies, >> Stephanie: Right a lot of different gaps >> Right But, also providing that support and enabling women and men >> Stephanie: Right >> to have mentors to learn from because it isn't just >> Stephanie: Yes >> challenging to get women in tech, its very challenging to retain women in technology who leave at very high rates >> yes >> for other careers. >> Correct Correct >> So how did you at being at, you said, Cisco for quite a long time and now >> correct VMware five years, >> Did you have women in leadership positions that you looked up to that were mentors to you? >> I think, so its interesting when you dive into your career at the very beginning, long time ago, you don't necessarily think about okay who are my mentors or who do I look up to? Or is there women specifically who can support me? I think for me its become just natural and I've had the opportunity where I've had a combination of both leaders, men and women, that have been mentors to me and supporters and as I moved forward in my career, I've discovered what was important was having, even a diverse set of mentors, men and women, but a circle of women around me too, that were living the challenges I was living. And I also don't think I realized some of the diversity challenges I was living until I got to a certain point and I looked back and went wow and I listened and part of WT2 allows you to listen to some of the other challenges that other people are having and you realize, I'm not alone and that person is experiencing the same thing that I'm experiencing. and I've now turned into a position of, where I am like, how can I help you? How can I help that you live through the same things that um, I've lived through. How can I help you and how can I help you contribute? This is a forum that allows us to come together and create new mentors, to get away from the everyday busyness and be selfish for a day and think about myself and how can I improve on things. Um, but really to connect and share our stories. >> You mentioned >> Stephanie: So I am thankful for that >> the word accountability earlier too and I think one of the things that's great about women transforming technology, women who code, we also, we cover a lot of women events, women and data science. Its at the VMware level, VMware is a huge organization very successful for many years, >> Stephanie: Yes >> But, they the this long-standing partnership Stanford and now the Clayman Institute, and now the new Innovation Lab, from an accountability perspective you are starting to see it. I shouldn't say starting, but you're seeing it in a big way >> Yes >> That's a big investment >> Stephanie: Yeah big investment by a big corporation >> Yes >> With 20 plus thousand people and of course Stanford University. >> Stephanie: right To look at what are these big barriers, um, that are effecting, that effect everybody >> Stephanie: That effect everybody. >> And how can they start to identify them and start to eradicate them and having companies participate and step up to be accountable to that is huge. >> Its huge. And I think, you know, its a journey, right. And I think we all started a couple of years ago just looking at the facts and looking at the data, and not pushing but I think presenting the facts of this is what our own diversity metrics look like. Not just men versus women, but, you know, different different you know, diversity factors in addition to okay, as a result of these facts, then what should we do as far as the next step. And I think over the past couple of years, there has been a natural progression around we're going to start looking at this and we're going to start asking questions, and we're going to start holding people accountable to doing what they said they were going to do from a people perspective, Diversity being one of them. So its been nice seeing that evolvement. Exciting to me is the partnership between VMware and Stanford because I think it takes it to the next level of its not just the data, its not just the facts, its not just we know its important, its what are the underlying behaviors underneath it, what are the underlying actions that we now can take, not just for VMware, not just for Stanford, but for the whole entire community, right? And that's what its all about. Its about coming together as a multiple different companies coming together as a great institution like Stanford coming together saying how can we make a difference in the community that we live in and make a difference from a technology perspective, so >> Yeah >> Its exciting to me and I think it will be interesting to be a part of the journey, but also see where we are a year from now, two years from now. >> Right, so you've, you sound like you have sort of found you voice with ah, wanting to be inspire inspirational >> Stephanie: yeah to other women, whatever stage of their career. >> Stephanie: Yeah >> It just seems like something that sort of occurred to you. Hey, I've been through this. I'm not the only one. A lot of people go through this. Um, what was that kind of ah hah moment when you said I have an opportunity here to give back. >> Stephanie: Yeah, I think its interesting cause I look back and I'm like there wasn't, well maybe their were a couple of moments, where I am like wait wait that comment just made, that was because I was a woman not because of what I was contributing. And, either it was like, okay, that was an interesting comment and how do I handle it. But it really wasn't, I think, until I was up in the higher ranks, right, and I starting saying okay, I've done a lot, we've been very results oriented, how do I start giving back? And how do I start mentoring others? And it started out as mentoring others that were maybe new college grads or maybe just new people to the company. And as I started mentoring to others, then I started realizing too that some of the women that I was mentoring, wait, their living through the same things that I lived through. And there was a big time where I thought oh it was just Stephanie. Right, oh, its just unique to me. Nobody else was dealing with this or it I also went through a period of like I wasn't any different than anybody else, right. And then as I started going through this, I realized no there's others that are living the same path that I lived. Um, and I think that I can help them grow and contribute to their own growth. And by the way, me, at the same time, me learn from them, um which is what its all about. >> Lisa: Very symbiotic >> Yeah >> It takes events like this, like WT squared, to identify hey, there is a lot of commonality and challenges that we all face regardless of gender or sexual orientation or what not. The more you are aware of some of these challenges, the more we can identify how how do we hold acc organizations or what not accountable. It takes that courage though to come together and be the one to raise your hand thinking you might have a dumb question when of course there really are no dumb questions (laugher) And finding that support, I mean, the strength in numbers, right, that's what the Golden State >> Warriors, Golden State Warriors >> Exactly. >> It is the team I love (laugher) >> Um, but its really true and its a very pervasive feeling when you come to an event like this, you walk in, and you feel that there's this inclusion >> Stephanie: Yeah >> Lisa: Across >> Stephanie: You feel the power of the people in the audience, but you also feel the affirmation from the panels or you know, Laylah Ali who is speaking today and her struggles and her journey, um, and just saying I can identify with that, right. I'm not alone, but also how do we together come together and have a voice, right? How do we hold others accountable? And doing it in a way that is fair. I think that's what all of us are ask for. Its not, I have never asked for special treatment because I am a woman or because I am an Asian, but because its fair, right, and I'm treated fair, and I'm treated the way that my peers are treated. Um, and I think that's what we all want. >> Yeah >> Yeah >> You mentioned Laylah Ali, her keynote this morning was it was great. >> Phenomenal I think its so, you you can tell, even if I hadn't seen her speak, you know Laylah Ali is a very strong woman >> Stephanie: Yes >> Physically, mentally, but it was really refreshing for her to say hey there's moments where I got to recheck, what's my purpose here, what am I doing. >> Stephanie: My inside warrior >> Yes, and I love that she said you know we got to find that inner warrior. She's in there >> Yeah >> Sometimes she's quiet, um, maybe has some tape across her mouth, but seeing a naturally innately strong female saying sometimes I don't feel that way, I think that is a very important message to get out, to all of those people, regardless of gender or orientation who don't have this sort of natural confidence that a Laylah Ali has. That's normal. >> Yeah yeah. And for me hearing somebody else say, a couple of things she said having that interior warrior, inside warrior, who, okay give yourself a day to feel bad. Give yourself a day to deal with it. And then its time to go back for the fight. Its time to go focus on what's important to you and bring out that passion and go. And, how many times have all of us felt that? Um, many a times. Um, the other part that, for me, that really hit home for me was confidence. And its funny, cause some people will say Oh,Steph you have very high confidence and I am like no I don't. And she said something to confidence is in planning and being prepared. >> Lisa: Yes >> And as I think about that, that is something that is very true. It resonated very close to me and I think about as I talk to women and they I say you are going to go into this meeting, think about how you are going to prepare for that meeting. Because then it allows you to immediately say yep, this is what we should do. Yep, this is my idea. To be able to have that voice. So I would say for me, those were probably the two pieces, right, confidence and preparation, or being prepared to have confidence and the inside warrior where it just really hit home for me. >> The preparation thing I thought was really cool too because we talk a lot about imposter syndrome. >> Stephanie: Yeah >> And its a real issue that a lot of people face, >> Stephanie: Very true >> Whatever stage of career they are at or industry, but she's right in that if you're prepared for whatever it is that you are doing, that confidence will come. But preparation is really key. >> Stephanie: Yeah I chuckle a little bit because when you say the imposter piece, I will admit I think there was a time in my career where I acted a certain way, and I was in meetings as a certain way, or I went down a path because that's the path you should go down, right. Um, but it wasn't true to myself and so I think the part around being prepared, being confident as a result of being prepared, really allows you to be true to yourself and allows you to bring out the passion. That's important. Um, and that applies to everybody, not just us. >> It does. So in your, kind of wrapping things up here, what are some of the cultural um shifts that you've seen being in tech industry for 20 years and some of the things you are looking forward to in the next year at VMware? >> Stephanie: Yeah, so I will say, cultural shifts, just from the standpoint of awareness, right. I think that is a very important piece of people being respectful and aware of the environment that we're in and people having the conversations. I don't think we would even be having these conversations 10 years ago. and there is multiple different reasons for that. Whether it be results of showing with inclusion and with diversity, you have better business results. Um, or whether it be people speaking up and saying hey, we have a right to have a voice. We have a right to be treated in a certain way. And so, from a culture standpoint, that voice and that awareness has then lead to being able to have the conversations of how people should be treated, how they should be respected, and how we um, should even have the discussion with each other. Right? Looking forward, I look forward to the fact of being able to have a stronger voice. And when I say a stronger voice, I don't mean hey, let's go for the fight and let's make sure we've go the right numbers. But it really is the voice in the room. Um, I think we still have the discussion around the numbers. We haven't necessarily had the discussion of how do we make sure that the people in the room, that is a diverse set of people, that their voices come out, so we get a diverse set of of suggestions and ideas to come to the best outcome. >> Stephanie, thank you so much for stopping by theCUBE, >> Stephanie: Thank you for having me. >> And sharing your backstory and your history. And um, its really nice to hear from other mentors who recognize and are proud to be in that position. So, thank you. >> Its a pleasure. Thank you >> We want to thank you for watching theCUBE. Lisa Martin, on the ground at VMware for the third annual Women Transforming Technology. Thanks for watching. (closing music beats)

>> Narrator: Live from Orlando Florida it's theCUBE covering Grace Hopper's celebration of women in computing brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of the Grace Hopper Conference here in Orlando, Florida. I'm your host Rebecca Knight along with my cohost Jeferick. We are joined by Monica Bailey and August Goldman. Monica is the Chief People Officer at GoDaddy and August is the Senior Vice President of Customer Care. Thank you both for joining us. >> Thank you, it's great to be here >> So let's start out with the numbers because you're a big number crunching company and you are collecting data and you're also sharing some data, so talk a little about what you have found. >> Yeah, well for the last few years we've been tracking how we pay men versus women because we really care about making sure we're paying all of our employees really fairly, and so we're happy this year to be able to say that for every dollar a man makes in the company a woman in a similar job also makes a dollar. And so that's great, that's the goal. The goal is fairness for all of our folks, so we're really excited about that. >> So how long did it take you to get there? >> So we started it three years ago with our CEO Blake Kirby onstage here at the Grace Hopper Conference which was in Houston at the time in front of 12,000 folks, and we showed the numbers. We showed pay parity and it wasn't parity at that point. >> Was it close? What are we talking about here? >> It was $0.96 cents, $0.96 per dollar, so it was close but it wasn't parity. And here's what's interesting, we've always said we need to be comfortable with uncomfortable data. I think we've talked about that before on this stage, and even if the data is not what you want it to be expose it, dig into it. What we've done together is we've found out what's wrong. >> Okay so how did you go about finding out what was wrong, and then also fixing it? >> Yeah well we looked at a few things, so first of all, we looked at different populations so we'd look at how are our technical employees paid, how are our non-technical employees paid, how are our leaders paid? And so we definitely see things when we look into those groups of employees, But we also just took, let's take the slice of our biggest set of jobs, our engineers, pretty applicable for this audience here today. So, we took a look at our engineers and said How are our entry level developers paid, men versus women? And we're also this year looking at our minorities as well. It's really important to not just stop at gender and look at how all your employees are paid. So, yeah, we definitely have made great progress on that. I don't know if you want to speak to it. >> So here's what's interesting, when we dug into this data that Monica is talking about we actually found that software development engineers one, and two, women were paid more. More. In those roles. So we said 'Oh, well that's fantastic' Well, guess what? The population size by percent of three, four, five, and six, the women dropped off. Fell off. And then we said well wait a second, what might be happening here, and all of a sudden, something came up in the data that we were just, we wouldn't have known unless we dug into it. Women stayed longer in those roles. They didn't ask for promotion. >> They stayed longer in the ones and twos. >> The ones and twos and guess what? If you stay longer in a role every year you get a little merit increase, every year you make more, eventually you'll make more, versus someone who is clipping through the levels at a good pace. So because of that, Monica put it something, You want to talk about promotion flagging? >> Yeah, we tried an experiment two summers ago and we took a look at this phenomenon of women and also some introverts, not just women, right? But it tends to be women aren't pounding their fists on the table for a promotion. So as a result their promotion rates are lower. So we went in and said let's try a little experiment called promotion flagging, let's just say hey, a good performing SDE, Software Dev Engineer, They're normally in role about 12 months or 18 months, a good one, before they get promoted, sometimes longer, good ones, too, but that's just on average When does the first time a good performing person would get promoted, and we said that will be our flag to managers, just to say hey, you're going through review, don't forget, all these folks have been in level a certain amount of time. Because some folks aren't begging you and demanding a promotion so let's consider everyone equally. And the goal wasn't really to promote more people, the goal was, let's just not forget anyone in the process, because that happens, unconsciously people just, they're forgetting folks across the industry. So they did that and it was amazing. The result was amazing. Also I should say, though, our goal was to make sure everybody got really actionable feedback to grow their skills and their impact at the company and their likelihood of a promotion down the road, which is exactly what we're going for because that makes your company better, so we love that. But the cool news is, because we've been following this data really closely because we're very nervous, because I also don't want to suddenly treat one of my populations not as well as they were being treated before. So we are really excited that men's promotion rates stayed unchanged. Women's promotion rates were jumped by a third. So just by merely saying don't forget all your folks please and give them good feedback, we saw that women got promoted 30% higher rate than they had in years prior, and so that's pretty cool for us. >> So I have two very specific questions: One, is there low-hanging fruit that somebody else watching this can see where there was the big disparity that was the easiest to fix? And two, you keep talking about reviews. There's a whole lot of conversation about the annual review process and how broken it is. You mentioned 18 months. Have you changed your, or maybe you changed it before, but has this forced you to look at the typical annual review process and reevaluate? >> Alright so I'll take the first if you want to grab the second Because the first one's easier so I'm just trying to get the first one she can do the hard one. That's why she's the head of HR now. She took my job by the way (laughs). >> I wasn't going to ask that. >> You weren't going to ask that, how can you not ask that? >> Stay with the easy question though. >> Okay, the first one is exactly what Monica was just talking about and that is actually flag folks in role after a period of time, and say you know what, both men and women, flag them and say, review them for promotion. Review for promotion. It's very simple, it's very easy. After a year of level one, maybe 18 months of level two, just say hey, have a look, is this person ready? And if they're not ready, what should they do to get ready. >> And that's the actionable feedback >> And here's what's interesting, here are the stats, which is really cool. So, two years ago we had 6% of our software development two were women. Last year was 15%. This year, 31%. 31% of software development two are women, and our software development one is now up to 41%. So you see we're building our pipeline so we're getting them in. Now the question is, once they're within the company how do we develop and grow them and promote over time? >> It begs the question, what are the threes? >> Oh, it's 13%. So you can see it's dropped off. So no, give us a year or two, we'll be back on the stage. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> And the goal is then 30, 40%, so, you know give us a few years. >> That's a great little actionable item though, just to make sure that you're paying attention to the people that aren't paying attention for themselves. >> And they did it as an experiment and are you going to now scale that to the rest of the company? >> We have scaled it to level twos and level threes and this year we'll probably scale it to a level four so each time we add another level we look at the data and see how it works. At some point folks are allowed to do an awesome job in the jobs they're in so we're not an up or out kind of company, some places are like that, so at some point we'll probably stop saying, 'should you promote this person to be leader of the universe?' because they're pretty great. But Jeff, you asked a great question about performance reviews, and I'm super passionate about this topic, so we were selected by Stanford's Clayman Institute as their partner a few years ago to basically conduct experiments with. They choose one company a year to say hey, are you open-minded enough to try some crazy stuff with us and see if there might be a result that we can share with the industry afterwards. And so we just felt so happy they chose us, and we shared tons of our data with them, they saw our employee survey, they saw redacted performance reviews, they got to sit in on our most senior talent review which is a calibration session to hear how are we talking about all of our employees. And the Clayman Institute, they care about the advancement of women in leadership, but my first meeting with them, I'm like, look, I super care about the women in my company, but I kind of care about all my employees in my company, so like, I need to make sure we're being really fair to everybody, and they're like, 'that's what we care about, too' and I'm like, okay, phew, first hurdle we passed. Anyway they're stunning foot partners and what they, after doing tons of this analysis, what they said was, tackle what almost no company has tackled. Tackle unconscious bias that lives within the people, processes, specifically around career advancement. So again, that's promotion that we talked about, that's also performance review. So we're like, that's us at GoDaddy, we're like let's try it, who knows what's going to happen, let's just see, so we jumped right in and basically what the found is at GoDaddy we care about what you do and how you do it, so those are, so what is sort of career ladder levels you hear companies talk about, and here's a general expectation, and how do you do against your goals. Great. And how you do it is how we collectively work together to get good stuff done at our company, right? And it sort of lives within our values. Our values don't live within a big poster that are shiny, and people kind of walk by and go ha, that's not what it's like here. We literally pay people to live our values, and to demonstrate that because we think it makes us better as a company and more impactful. So we took a look at these values, and I'll be honest I had created with the best of intentions basically some competencies, too many, that lived under these values, and when you have way too many things for people to keep track of, it's almost like having nothing at all. Which a lot of companies have also done, blow it up, put it in the hands of managers, let's assume they'll all do the right thing consistently, which doesn't happen. So what we did with the Clayman Institute is we interviewed about 20 of our leaders and we did some focus groups, and we said, look, these are the six behaviors that line up against three of our values central to performance. These behaviors are critical for all of us. It's stuff like, do you share information with other teams, or do you look for ways to integrate your work across your team or across multiple teams, depending on the scope of your job. Do you work fearlessly? Do you include others in conversations so you're driving innovative solutions and working fearlessly for your folks. >> And you know what it's not? Your style, how do you approach others, are you bossy, nothing about that, nothing about approach. You could be an introvert, an extrovert, all different styles. These are actionable behaviors around how we're going to get stuff done and be distinctive in our company. >> So, what is your advice to other tech companies when they are writing their values and thinking about how they want their employees to live out these values? >> Well it's interesting, number one, it has to result in business results, right? So, it's really easy to have a really fun time writing these but they have to make a difference in your company and mean something, otherwise why would you want to reward them? Right, they're just nice otherwise. Two, they really collectively should drive the culture of your company. So when you look at it en masse, if you see, if I get everyone doing these things, is that the culture that drives my company? Is that going to attract and retain people, and drive again the business result we want? So to me those are super, super important. But the Clayman team will take you to camp and help you with all this stuff but really also, is your language equally accessible to men and women? To introverts and extroverts? To all of your employees, to minorities, to different employee populations, because some things like, 'aggressive drivers get things done.' Now, I know a lot of women by the way, who are very aggressive drivers and get a lot of things done but certain language is sort of unconsciously attributed to men more than women, and so if you have one role model for what success looks like and it happens to be subconsciously a man that you think about, women are disadvantaged. So they really, we went so deep with them. So my main advice is, if you can, frankly I'd just become a member of the Clayman Institute fan club and try to get some consulting help from them, but there are great folks out there that do this kind of work for a living who are really helpful, because it's really hard to take a look at yourself objectively. >> Well actually I was just going to mention that, so when Monica mentioned we had monitors sitting in our most senior review of the top 150 people. When we calibrated them together a group of 30, of the next 150, we actually had two monitors sitting and writing, when are we talking about style. When are we being inconsistent between one VP and another VP And we actually, the first year, we didn't get an A. The first year we did not get an A, by any shot of the imagination. >> It makes me feel better to say probably most companies wouldn't, right? But we did not and we were brave. >> If you don't measure it you can't make a change. We've had Lori a couple times on theCUBE but the Cayman Institute does fantastic work. >> Lori was the one who guided us, and they're amazing. And I think what's interesting, we're all well-intended, wonderful executives, I mean we are well-intended, wonderful people. You look around the room, I'm going, 'we don't have bias, we're great, we're going to get an A, bring monitors in, bring them all in, this is going to be great.' At the first year they're like, mm, no, look how many inconsistencies you did over the day. And they showed us the data and we just sat there and went >> Did they record it 'cause tape don't lie >> They did not record it but I can tell you they typed faster than I could >> Lot of data, lot of data >> They came in the next year. So we did a hard look at ourselves, we talked about doing it differently, they came in, the same two people, the next year, real different. And by the way, we will continue to have them every single year. >> Well you need the reflection back. Well August, Monica, thank you so much for being on this show. It's always so much fun to have GoDaddy here on the Cube. >> Thank you >> Great. We will have more from Grace Hopper in Orlando, Florida just after this (techno music)

>> Announcer: From Palo Alto, it's theCube, covering Women Transforming Technology 2017. Brought to you by VMware. >> Welcome back to theCube's coverage of Women Transforming Technology here at VMware in beautiful, sunny Palo Alto, California. I'm Rebecca Knight, your host, and I'm joined by Lori MacKenzie. She is the executive director of the Clayman Institute for Research at Stanford University. Lori, thank you so much for joining us here today. >> So happy to be here. >> So, we were talking before the cameras were rolling about your research and one of the things you were talking about is the frozen middle and I really like that terminology because there's so much research about the subtle biases that women face in the workplace and how management can make all the difference. So, tell us a little bit about this frozen middle and about the strategies you're using to help middle managers become better managers. >> You know, people often say employees leave managers, they don't leave companies, and so, the manager really is setting the experience of every employee and so, our question is this: Can you help managers be more inclusive in a way it makes them feel like they're both better managers and better business leaders? So, what we do is we do experiments with them. We say, "Try this" or "Try that," that will block bias and make you more effective. For example, do you know what you're evaluating people on? Do you have a toolkit for that? What kind of dashboard might you create to make yourself more effective? It turns out, when managers create something themselves, based on gender research, and it helps them be more effective. They'll even fight new HR people trying to change them back to a different process because they know it works. And for me, that's the win-win. Managers co-design it, it's based on gender research, and because it makes them more effective, they're more likely to redo these processes themselves, even if they don't have any HR support. >> So, part of it is training, but it also, it sounds like a lot of it is also ownership, too. >> Yes, absolutely. What we found is sometimes inclusion or diversity training is decoupled from what people do everyday at work. What if we put them together and talk about you creating something using the gender knowledge and thinking about what you do every day at work? When you couple those back together, that's when it really matters to managers and makes them feel more effective. >> So often, diversity and gender issues is part of the HR function of a company. >> Lori: Absolutely. >> But your approach is really different. Tell us a little bit about what how you recommend companies think about gender and diversity. >> So, you need diversity inclusion to live somewhere. You need an owner of it and it makes sense that it's owned by the HR function. And we think that's essential. >> Rebecca: And it makes sense because it starts with hiring? Or because? >> And with people 'cause it starts with people. These are all people and people crosses every single function, from marketing to technology, to law, and that makes sense. It's necessary, but not sufficient to motivate change. Change happens because each function and each person believes that it improves what they're doing. So, for example, the rollout of something like Agile software development, software developers use it because they were told it makes them develop better software. What if we approached diversity like that? Managers start to be curious about it and engage in it because they thought made them better developing software that was unbiased, their team meetings went better, more voices were included, people weren't leaving. When you embed it in what people do every day, that's when it's not something that disappears when the HR person disappears. It's embedded in what people do every day and we think that's really important. >> And you were also talking about, you were talking about thinking about this in terms of product rollout, but also, in terms of how people are introduced and how they interact. >> So, we've discovered language matters. And often, if we don't think strategically about language, stereotypes will guide how we call people, regardless of who they are. So, we might tend to say, "I love working with Lori. "She's so great. "She's my best friend." And "I appreciate working with," let's say, "Brian, because he's a strong leader and very strategic." And even though I think they're both really great and really strategic, the audience takes a very different perspective of what people's contribution is. So, language matters, how we introduce people. I always tell people look closely at your LinkedIn profile. Look at how you're endorsing people and try to use language that reflects your values, which are both very driving, strategic, and collaborative teamworking. Combine them, don't default to one or the other, based on stereotypes. >> So, can you, let's unpack that a little bit more. In terms of the stereotypes and the way you described Lori on the one hand and Brian on the other, how is it different and what would you say is typically done and what should we be thinking about to do better? >> Well, it turns out that men and women leaders behave very similarly, that we describe their successes and failures very differently in language, based on stereotypes. So, for not thinking about what do I want to say and then instead, think about what I happen to say, we'll wind up describing them very differently for the exact same outcome. Some descriptions are more aligned with getting promoted and some are more aligned with kind of that helper, supporter-type person. And over time, you could start to see someone gaining an advantage, based on how we perceive them, not their actual contribution. So, one of our recommendations is to think strategically about language to prevent that kind of perception difference from being replicated in how we introduce people, how we describe them, how we talk about them. >> In terms of diversity programs, we were talking a little bit about this before the show started. Does it matter where you start? Do you start with thinking about being more inclusive of women or minorities or people of different sexual orientations? I mean, where do you start and does it matter? >> That's such a great question. It's something I grapple with all the time and in all my years of working in this field, my new line is, "There is no trickle down diversity." And what I mean by that is, by working on the kind of the broadest segment, for example, women, does not mean that Black women, Latino women, and Asian women will benefit for their fair share of these efforts and it might be harder to design for everyone, men of color, sexually diverse people, people with disabilities, but if we don't start there, it seems like we never get there. So, my new perspective is, we really have to start with the hard questions and in the end, whatever we develop will benefit far more people than starting somewhere and having them make up for the fact that we didn't include everybody equally in our programs. >> As the executive director of the Clayman Institute at Stanford, what do you make of what's happening right now in Uber, in Silicon Valley? We've seen so much really depressing, horrible news coming out and this is just a couple of years after the Ellen Pao lawsuit. Why aren't things better and what's your take? >> So, the mechanism of what's behind all the news today is the same. It's privilege. That someone's story is believed and someone's story is not believed and we act on the stories that more align with our cultural norms of expectation, high performance, and that perpetuates itself. And to tell you the truth, there are many days when I just can't look at the newsfeed, but then, I hope that every day I get a little bolder. I found I've spoken a little more strongly, I've pushed a little harder, I've tried not to be complacent myself, but more importantly, I'm trying to support the men and women who are trying to make a difference because we're all feeling a little bit beat down by some of the news and I think now, more than ever, we need to support the well-intentioned people who are trying to do good and know that it's a long view and we're in it for the long run, so let's not get distracted by anything but keep pushing forward, even down to making sure our daughters know that they matter, that if something happens to them, it matters, and that our sons, it matters that they're good men, that they grow up not to have locker talk. I think all of that matters. >> And are you working on anything in particular right now that is directly, I mean of course it directly, it all addresses it, but that really is about what you're hearing women's tales from Silicon Valley? >> You know, what's really exciting about being at an institute that's over 40 years old is that we have a range of topics that we work on and at the Clayman Institute, we've been working on breaking the culture of sexual assault for two years now and we're looking at what are the cultural configurations that enable these actions to be kind of, happen frequently and what can we do to address the culture in which assault and harassment happens. So, we've been studying things like how do you announce, how does a company make an announcement about their findings about sexual assault? Does it matter that you announce with a big statistic? Does it matter that you say these things are unacceptable? Or to just say it's part of, kind of every day life? So we're studying the language of these announcements. We're studying the frequency of them and it's something we've been working on for years because I think when you think about gender equality, it's complex and it's got a lot of dimensions and if we only go in one direction, we're going to miss something. So, I think it's always keeping your eye on all the barriers that women face from harassment to language, to promotions, to access and figuring out what are common ways that we can address and attack all of those issues and find workable solutions. >> What is your best advice to a, let's say a male executive in Silicon Valley who says, "Lori, I want my company to be different. "I want it to be a more welcoming, inclusive, "nurturing culture for everyone." What would you say to him? >> I would say, "Start with the assumption "that everything might have bias in it." Then-- >> Because we're human or-- >> Because we're human. >> Okay, okay. >> And just like software, you always assume there's something you can debug and you're looking for ways that it might be broken and we're often complacent about how people are treated in team meetings, how we hire, who gets promoted. And if we assume that there could be a bug in any one of those processes and we're vigilant about getting better and better over time at tracking them and proving them and then, getting ahead of 'em, that's where a company can take real traction. But the moment we become complacent, we actually open the door to more bias 'cause then we stop looking and the bias is always going to be there. >> But I like what you said too about assume that there's something you can debug. I mean, that's real software, but that's, (laughs) you're talking their language. >> Right, right, and I talk to a lot of male executives. Very well intended, who really want solutions, so part of my optimism is there are a lot of well intentioned people in all of these companies. Let's get them the tools and perspectives to be effective and I think we will continue to see positive momentum, even though the environment right now is a little hostile. I think keep driving forward with the long view, make your cultures as inclusive and safe for all your employees as possible, and take a good hard look at where there might be bias and let's not be afraid to tackle it together. >> And now, let's give advice to that young woman who's starting out at a company in Silicon Valley, who maybe is freshly graduated from college and has never experienced the workforce before. What would you say to her? >> I'd say, "You're awesome." And you know, there are challenges for everyone. Even CEOs get coached about their presence and everything else and there probably will be more barriers as a woman or a woman of color that you're going to have to get better at, but I'm like Gloria Steinem. I'm a hopeaholic. I believe we can all develop the skills. I think we should work together, break the barriers, and develop the skills. But in the end of the day, your voice matters and having you develop the future of technology matters so, let's work on that together. >> Lori MacKenzie, thank you so much for joining us. >> Yeah, thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for theCube. This is Women Transforming Technology. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from Palo Alto, it's theCUBE, covering Women Transforming Technology 2017, brought to you by VMware. >> theCUBE's coverage of Women Transforming Technology, held at VMware's campus here in Palo Alto, California. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, joined by Jeff Frick. We are here at the conference. It starts today. It's a one-day event. >> Right. >> And we just heard Kara Swisher, who is a journalistic hero of mine, and she gave a great, rousing, funny, timely, topical, political keynote. What'd you think? >> Well, she's been covering for so long. I read aol.com way back when, and I actually did an internship at AOL, I think in '96, back in the days when they were shipping, shipping CDs, so it's so fun to put her together with kind of that. >> Right. >> Seminal moment in time. >> She's a veteran. Exactly. >> She's terrific. She followed the characteristics that she outlined in her keynote, which is be true to yourself and don't be an asshole but don't really care what other people think. Be true to yourself. And she was that through and through. It's the first time I've actually ever seen her speak. It was a lot of fun. >> She's a great, really dynamic, funny, self-deprecating but also a bit of an ego herself. >> Oh, absolutely. >> I enjoyed particularly, as a fellow journalist, how she took Silicon Valley to task a few times, just talking a little bit about the naval gazing the Silicon Valley does, how badly they want to talk about the products and the process when really, the end users pretty much just care about, does it work, what's it going to do? >> Right, and two, it's kind of good news, bad news. With Trump, it's a never-ending source of good content for journalists, never have to wake up in the morning and think of a hard story to cover. And now, what's going on unfortunately with Uber, which as she said, is like somebody falling down a flight of stairs and they just keep falling and falling and falling. Big post that came out last week on LinkedIn, it got pretty viral, widespread, and then apparently another one and lord knows, I'm sure there's plenty more to go. And she really called out that she's trying to make people take a stand publicly against things that are not right and to really take a position, use your position of power to try to, as she said, help people with afflictions and afflict people that don't need the help. >> Yeah, comfort. >> Yeah, comfort those with afflictions. >> And afflict the comfortable. Yeah, no, I think it's a great point, in terms of here you Silicon Valley captains of industry, you are powerful people, you run powerful companies, act like it. >> Right. >> Act like it. And take up these causes that Trump is certainly taking up and particularly since they are so core to the values of Silicon Valley. These are gender issues, immigration, gay, transgender, and start taking a stance and stand up. >> Right. And so, we're excited to be here. This is, I guess, the second time they've had the Women Transforming Technology conference. We actually covered a VM women at a VMware show a couple years ago, and the Clayman Institute was there. So we're excited to be back. A full day of interviews, really glad to have you out and again, welcome to California from the East Coast. >> Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be here. >> But it's a full line-up. We're going wall to wall and ending the day with I know someone that you're really looking forward to. >> A feminist icon, Gloria Steinem. And I also think that kudos to VMware and to the other sponsors of this conference for choosing her. She's not an obvious choice for a Women Transforming Technology conference closing address, but she really is going to take on so many of these important issues of the day. >> Okay, so any particular guests that you're most excited about today? >> I mean, there's so many. I am excited to talk to the women at the Clayman Institute for Gender Research. >> Yeah, Lori's fantastic. >> Yeah, Lori's going to be fantastic. Yanbing Li, she looks really interesting and a dynamic speaker, I know she's been on theCUBE before. >> Right, right, many times. >> Yeah. >> Alright, super. Well, I think they are just about ready to get out of the keynote, so we should probably. >> Excellent. >> Get ready for our first guest. >> Thank you so much. Great. >> Alright. >> We'll see you back here soon.