>> Live, from Barcelona Spain, it's theCUBE, covering Cisco Live! Europe. Brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, here at Cisco Live! 2019 in Barcelona, Spain, I'm Stu Miniman, happy to welcome to the program a first-time guest, but someone I've known for many years, Jason Edelman, who is the founder of Network to Code. Jason, great to see you, and thanks for joining us. >> Thank you for having me, Stu. >> Alright, Jason, let's first, for our audiences, this is your first time on the program, give us a little bit about your background, and what led to you being the founder of Network to Code. >> Right, so my background is that of a traditional network engineer. I've spent 10+ years managing networks, deploying networks, and really, acting in a pre-sales capacity, supporting Cisco infrastructure. And it was probably around 2012 or 13, working for a large Cisco VAR, that we had access to something called Cisco onePK, and we kind of dove into that as the first SDK to control network devices. We have today iPhone SDKs, SDKs for Android, to program for phone apps, this was one of the first SDKs to program against a router and a switch. And that, for me, was just eye-opening, this is kind of back in 2013 or so, to see what could be done to write code in Python, Seer, Java, against network devices. Now, when this was going on, I didn't know how to code, so I kind of used that as the entrance to ramp up, but that was, for me, the pivot point. And then, the same six-week period, I had a demo of Puppet and Ansible automated networking devices, and so that was the pivot point where it was like, wow, realizing I've spent a career architecture and designing networks, and realizing there's a challenge in operating networks day to day. >> Yeah, Jason, dial back. You've some Cisco certifications in your background? >> Sure, yes, CCIE, yeah. >> Yeah, so I think back, when this all, OpenFlow, and before we even called it Software-Defined Networking, you were blogging about this type of stuff. But, as you said, you weren't a coder. It wasn't your background, you were a network guy, and I think the Network to Code, a lot of the things we've been looking at, career-wise, it's like, does everyone need to become coders? How will the tools mature? Give us a little bit about that journey, as how you got into coding and let's go from there. >> Yeah, it was interesting. In 2010, I started blogging OpenFlow-related, I thought it was going to change the world, saw what NICRO was doing at the time, and then Big Switch at the time, and I just speculated and blogged and really just envisioned this world where networks were different in some capacity. And it took a couple years to really shed light on management and operations of networking, and I made some career shifts. And I remember going back to onePK, at the time, my manager then, who is now our CEO at Network to Code, he actually asked, well, why don't you do it? And it was just like, me? Me, automate our program? What do you mean? And so it was kind of like a moment for me to kind of reflect on what I can do. Now, I will say I don't believe every network engineer should know how to code. That was my on-ramp because of partnership with Cisco at the time, and learning onePK and programming languages, but that was for me, I guess, what I needed as that kick in the butt to say, you know what? I am going to do this. I do believe in the shift that's going to happen in the next couple years, and that was where I kind of just jumped in feet first, and now we are where we are. >> Yeah, Jason, some great points there. I know for myself, I look at, Cisco's gone through so much change. A year ago, up on stage, Cisco's talking about their future is as a software company. You might not even think of us as networking first, you will talk to us about software first. So that initial shift that you saw back in 2010, it's happening. It's a different form than we might have thought originally, and it's not necessarily a product, but we're going through that shift. And I like what you said about how not everybody needs to code, but it's this change in paradigms and what we need to do are different. You've got some connections, we're here in the DevNet Zone. I saw, at the US show in Orlando last year, Network to Code had a small booth, there were a whole bunch of startups in that space. Tell us how you got involved into DevNet, really since the earliest days. >> Yes, since the early days, it was really pre-DevNet. So the emergence of DevNet, I've seen it grow into, the last couple years, Cisco Live! And for us, given what we do at Network to Code, as a network-automation-focused company, we see DevNet in use by our clients, by DevNet solutions and products, things like, mentioned yesterday on a panel, but DevNet has always-on sandboxes, too. One of the biggest barriers we've seen with our clients is getting access to the right lab gear on getting started to automate. So DevNet has these sandboxes always on to hit Nexus API or Catalyst API, right? Things like that. And there's really a very good, structured learning path to get started through DevNet, which usually, where we intersect in our client engagement, so it's kind of like post-DevNet, you're kind of really showing what's possible, and then we'll kind of get in and craft some solutions for our clients. >> Yeah, take us inside some of your clients, if you can. Are most of them hitting the API instead of the COI now when they're engaging? >> Yeah, it's actually a good question. Not usually talked about, but the reality is, APIs are still very new. And so we actively test a lot of the newer APIs from Cisco, as an example. IOS XE has some of the best APIs that exist around RESTCONF, NETCONF, modeled from the same YANG models, and great APIs. But the truth is that a lot of our clients, large enterprises that've been around for 20+ years, the install base is still largely not API-enabled. So a lot of the automation that we do is definitely SSH-based. And when you look at what's possible with platforms, if it is something like a custom in Python, or even an ANSEL off the shelf, a lot of the integrations are hidden from the user, so as long as we're able to accomplish the goal, it's the most important thing right now. And our clients' leaderships sometimes care, and it's true, right? You want the outcome. And initially, it's okay if we're not using the API, but once we do flip that switch, it does provide a bit more structure and safety for automating. But the install base is so large right now that, to automate, you have to use SSH, and we don't believe in waiting 'til every device is API-enabled because it'll just take a while to turn that base. >> Alright, Jason, a major focus of the conference this year has been around multi-cloud. How's that impacting your business and your customers? >> So, it's in our path as a company. Right now, there's a lot of focus around multi-cloud and data center, and the truth is, we're doing a lot of automation in the Campus networking space. Right, automating networks to get deployed in wiring closets and firewalls and load balancers and things like that. So from our standpoint, as we start planning with our clients, we see the services that we offer really port over to multi-cloud and making sure that with whatever automation is being deployed today, regardless of toolset, and look at a tool chain to deploy, if it's a CI/CD Pipeline for networking, be able to do that if you're managing a network in the Campus, a data center network, or multi-cloud network, to make sure we have a uniform-looking field to operations, and doing that. >> Alright, so Jason, you're not only founder of your company, you're also an author. Maybe tell us about the, I believe it's an update, or is it a new book, that recently got out. >> Yes, I'm a co-author of a book with Matt Oswalt and Scott Lowe, and it's an O'Reilly book that was published last year. And look, I'm a believer in education, and to really make a change and change an industry, we have to educate, and I think the book, the goal was to play a small part in really bringing concepts to light. As a network engineer by trade, there's fundamental concepts that network engineers should be aware of, and it could be basics and a lot of these, it could be Python or Jinja templating in YAML and Git and Linux, for that matter. It's just kind of providing that baseline of skills as an entrance into automation. And once you have the baseline, it kind of really uncovers what's possible. So writing the book was great. Great opportunity, and thank you to Matt and Scott for getting involved there. It really took a lot of the work effort and collaborated with them on it. >> Want to get your perception on the show, also. Education, always a key feature of what happens at the show. Not far from us is the Cisco bookshop. I see people getting a lot of the big Cisco books, but I think ten years ago, it was like, everybody, get my CCIE, all my different certifications updated, here. Here in the DevNet Zone, a lot of people, they're building stuff, they're building new pieces, they're playing in the labs, and they're doing some of these environments. What's your experience here at the show? Anything in particular that catches your eye? >> So, I do believe in education. I think to do anything well, you have to be educated on it. And I've read Cisco Press books over the years, probably a dozen of them, for the CCIE and beyond. I think when we look at what's in DevNet, when we look at what's in the bookstore, people have to immerse themselves into the technology, and reading books, like the learning labs that are here in the DevNet Zone, the design sessions that are right behind us. Just amazing for me to have seen the DevNet Zone grow to be what it is today. And really the goal of educating the market of what's possible. See, even from the start, Network to Code, we started as doing a lot of training, because you really can't change the methodology of network operations without being aware of what's possible, and it really does kind of come back to training. Whatever it is, on-demand, streaming, instructor-led, reading a book. Just glad to see this happen here, and a lot more to do around the industry, in the space around community involvement and development, but training, a huge part of it. >> Alright, Jason, want to give you the final word, love the story of network engineer gone entrepreneurial, out of your comfort zone, coding, helping to build a business. So tell us what you see, going forward. >> So, we've grown quite a bit in the past couple years. Right now, we're over 20 engineers strong, and starting from essentially just one a couple years ago, was a huge transformation, and seeing this happen. I believe in bringing on A-players to help make that happen. I think for us as a business, we're continuing to grow and accelerating what we do in this network automation space, but I just think, one thought to throw out there is, oftentimes we talk about lower-level tools, Python, Git, YAML, a lot of new acronyms and buzzwords for network engineers, but also, the flip side is true, too. As our client base evolves, and a lot of them are in the Fortune 100, so large clients, looking at consumption models of technology's super-important, meaning is there ITSM tools deployed today, like a ServiceNow, or Webex teams, or Slack for chat integration. To really think through early on how the internal customers of automation will consume automation, 'cause it really does us no good, Cisco, vendors, or clients no good, if we deploy a great network automation platform, and no one uses it, because it doesn't fit the culture of the brand of the organization. So it's just, as we continue to grow, that's really what's top of mind for us right now. >> Alright, well Jason, congratulations on everything that you've done so far, wish you the best of luck going forward, and thank you so much, of course, for watching. We'll have more coverage, three day, wall-to-wall, here at Cisco Live! 2019 in Barcelona. I'm Stu Miniman, and thanks for watching theCUBE. (electronic music)

>> Live from Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE! Covering Cisco Live 2018. Brought to you by Cisco, NetApp, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. (bubbly music) >> Hello everyone and welcome back to the live coverage, here with theCUBE, here in Orlando, Florida, for Cisco Live 2018. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Stu Miniman, for the next three days of wall-to-wall live coverage. We have the co-founders of the Network Collective here Eyvonne Sharp and Jordan Martin, thanks for joining us today, Network Collective. Sounds great, sounds like it's a collection of networks, so what's goin' on, what do you guys do? First let's talk about what you guys do, obviously you guys do a lot of podcasting, a lot of diggin' into the tech, what is Network Collective? >> Network Collective is a video podcast that Jordan and I started. We really felt like there was a need to build community around network engineers, and that really a lot of network engineers are very isolated in their job, there's only a couple people where they work, they know what they know, and they don't have a lot of peers. And so we see Network Collective as a way to bring network engineers together to learn about their craft, and also share with one another in a community that's more than a once-a-year conference like Cisco Live. >> That's awesome, I love the video podcasting, more than ever now the need for kind of peer review, conversations around learning because the world's shifting. In the keynote today the CEO of Cisco talked about the old way, and the new networks that are coming. We've been talking about no perimeters for years, but now security threats are real, gotta keep that strain solid, keep managing that, but also bring in a new kind of a cloud-hybrid, multi-cloud world, requires real skill adoption, new things. What're you guys seeing, what's your thoughts, and what's some of the things that you guys are exploring on your video podcast around these trends? >> You wanna take that Jordan? >> Sure. So, I think the rate of change of networking is faster than it's been in a very long time, so we've, we've had to, we've kinda not had a whole lotta churn in the things we've had to learn, I mean it's been complex and difficult, and there's been challenges in getting up to speed, but, with the transition to more developer-focused, and developer-centric model of deploying equipment, it is--and the integration of cloud into what is essentially our infrastructure. It's changing so much, that it's good to get together and have those conversations because it's very difficult to navigate this by yourself, it's, you know, it's a lot to learn. >> You know, I wanna push back little bit on that 'cause, you know, I've been in networking my whole career. When I used to, I used to speak at Interop, and I'd put down, you know, here's the rate of change, and here are the decades. And it's like, you know, okay 10 gig, here's where the standards are, here's where the first pieces are, it's gonna take years for us to deploy this. I don't disagree that change is happening overall faster, but how are people keeping up with it? Are the enterprises that the networking people work for allowing them to roll out some of these changes a little faster? So, give us a little insight as to what you're hearing from the community? >> I think, I mean technology, I mean, we've got Moore's law, right? I mean technology has always been changing rapidly, I think the thing that is different is the way network engineers need to interact with their environment. Five to 10 years ago, you could still operate in an environment where you still did a lot of static routing, for example. Now, with the cloud, with workloads moving around, there is no way to run a multi-cloud enterprise network without some serious dynamic routing chops, whether that's BGP, or EIGRP, or OSPF, or all of the above, and a lot of network engineers are still catching up with some of those technologies, they're used to being able to do things the way that they've always done them. And I think there needs to be a mind shift where we start thinking about things dynamically, in that, you know, an IP address may not live in the same geography, it may move from on-premises to the cloud to another cloud, and we have to be able to build networks that are resilient enough, and flexible enough, to be able to support that kind of mobility. >> Yeah, I love that Eyvonne. Right, you talked about the multi-cloud world. Jordan, a follow up question I have for you, how does the networking person look at things when there's a lot of the networking that are really outside of their control when you talk about really, the cloud world today. >> Sure, and before we jump there, I wanna say, the change that we're talking about though, is a bit different than what's happened. So, what we've seen traditionally would be speeds and feeds, but what's changing is the way we operate networks, and that hasn't changed a lot. Now, as for, you know, how do you view it when you don't-- well that's a challenge that everyone is facing. We see networking getting further and closer to the host. And, when we see networking inside of VMware, I mean this has been something that's been around for, you know, a while now, but, we're just getting comfortable with the idea of hypervisor, and now we've got, you know, we've got containers, and we've got networking in third party services that we don't necessarily have access to, we don't have full control over, and it's a completely different nomenclature we have to relearn all the terms because of course, no one reused the stuff we were familiar with, because this all started from a developer mindset. It all makes sense where it came from, but now we're catching up. And so it's, the challenge is not only understanding what needs to be done in all these different environments, but also understanding, just the terminology, and what is means. What is a VPC? Well VPC means something completely different to a networker that has never touched Amazon, than it does to somebody who has worked at Amazon completely there's overlapping terms and confusion around that and it's just a matter of, I think you need some broader coordination. There's been discussion about something like a full stack engineer, I think that's a pretty rare thing, I don't know how, how likely it is that you're gonna be expert level in all different disciplines, but you do need, you do need cross-team collaboration more than you have traditionally. We've had these silos, those no longer work in a multi-cloud world, it just doesn't, just doesn't work anymore. >> One of the things that came out with the keynote was, the networks next act was the main theme, as they talked about this new way, I mean, they use secure, intelligent platform, you know, for digital business, you know, level one marketing there, more complex than a few years ago and then the onslaught of new things coming, AI, augmented reality, machine learning, and I'd put blockchain in there, I thought they would put blockchain in the keynote to hype it up a bit, but, then they introduced the multi-cloud concept at that point. So in the keynote, multi-cloud didn't come up until the next act came up, so obviously that is a key part of what we're seeing, we saw Google clouds CEO Diane Greene come on. How are network engineers looking at the multi-cloud? 'Cause, I mean, how are they, toe in the water, are they puttin' the tow in the water? (chuckles) What is multi-cloud to them? Because, I mean, we talk about Kubernetes all the time, from an app standpoint, but, networks have been locked down for many, many years, you talked about some of the chops they need, what are those next chops for a network engineer when it comes to taking the road to multi-cloud? >> Sure, I mean I think if you're going to do any kind of multi-cloud interconnect, you've gotta know VGP. But at the same time, you need to understand some of those fundamental concepts that, the reason developers are pushing to the cloud, is not cost, although I've heard that a lot, that you know this cloud thing can't be cheaper, but it's really about enabling the business to move faster, and so we need to start thinking that way as network engineers more too. We have I think historically, our mentality, we've even trained our network engineers to go slow, to be very deliberate, to plan out your changes, to have these really complex change windows, and we need to start thinking differently, we need to think about how to make modular changes, and to be able to allow our workloads to move and shift in ways that don't provide a lot of risk, and I think that's a new way of thinking for networking engineers. >> Yeah. >> Well, we're sitting here in the DevNet zone, and that was one of the highlights in the keynote, talking that there are over 500 thousand developers now registered on this platform that they've built here. Bring us inside a little bit, you know, is it, what was it, John, DevNet sec? There's all of these acronyms as to, you know, how developers-- >> Yeah, NetApp was their big thing. >> how the network and the operations go together. What are you seeing, what's working, what's some of the challenges? >> I think this is a shift of necessity. As we see more problems solved in the network, we're adding complexity at that layer that hasn't been seen before, before it was routing, we just had to get traffic from one place to another, then we added security, so okay we have security, but we, we create these choke points in security where we can send all the traffic through this place and just like, we can use filtering, or some sort of identification there. Well then we start moving to cloud and we talk about dynamic workloads, and we talk about things that could just shift anywhere in the world, well now our choke point is gone, and so now we have to manage all the pieces, all the solutions, all the things we're putting into the network, but we've gotta manage it in a distributed way. And so that's where I think the automation's, why it's such a big push right now is because, we have to do it that way, there's no way to manually put these features in the network and be able to manage them at any type of scale without automating that process, and that's why, I think, we see the growth of DevNet, I mean, if you've been here the past few years, it's gone from a little thing to a much, much bigger thing, there's a lot of people looking at automation specifically, that 500 thousand number is, rather large. Really impressive that there's that many people looking at networks from a programmatic way. But in the meantime, I think that there's also, a bit of a divide here, 'cause I think that there's, a lot of people are looking this way, but I think there's, we talk about this on the show pretty often, there's really two types of networks. There's the networks at companies where, it really is, they see their network as a competitive advantage, and those places are definitely looking at automation, and they're looking at multi-cloud. But we also see another trend in networking, and that is to, I want some simple, push button, just put it out, get packets A to B, and I don't wanna mess with it, I don't want expensive engineers on staff, I don't want-- So I feel like the industry's almost coming to a divide. That we're gonna have two different types of networks, we're gonna have the network for the place that the just want packets going A to B, and they really don't want much, and the other side of that divide is gonna be very complex networks that have to be managed with automation. >> Talk about that other divide, it's between, I mean, I love that conversation, because, that almost kinda comes into like the notion of networks as a service. Because if you wanna have less expensive people there, but yet have the reliability, how do those companies grow and maintain the robust resiliency of these networks, and have the high performance, take advantage of the goodness, well what does it matter? I mean, how are they, how is the demographic of the network evolving, 'cause, either they're stunted for growth, or they have an enabler. How do you view that, how do you take that apart? >> I think we have to, we have to look at our business needs, and evaluate the technologies that we use appropriate to that. There are times for complexity, I think we've pushed, as Jordan very eloquently described, a lot of complexity down into the network, and we're working, I think, now, as the entire industry to maybe back some of that out. But one of the things that I hear a lot when we talk about automation and things like DevNet and developers is, I believe a lot of network engineers are afraid their jobs are going away, but if you look at what's going on, we have more connected devices than we've ever had before, and that's not gonna stop, and all of those connected devices need networks. And so really what's happened is we've reached a complexity inflection point, which means we have to have better tools, and I think that's really what we're talking about is, is how do we, instead of doing everything manually, how do we look at the network as a system, and manage it as a system, with tools to manage it that way. >> Your point about that jobs going away, I love that comment because, that's a sunk fallacy because, there's so much other stuff happening, talk about security, so the basic question, I mean first of all, guys your job's not goin' away! (laughs) Check! It's only a, well, kind of, you don't stay current, so it's all the learning issues, the progression for learning. But really it's the role of the network engineers and the people running the networks, I mean, I remember back in, the old way, the network guys were the top dogs, they were kickin' butt, takin' names, they ran the show, a lot was riding on the network. But as we go into this new dynamic environment, what are the roles of the network? Is it security? I mean, what are some of the things that people are pivoting to, or laddering up to from a roles standpoint that you see, in terms of a progression of new discovery, new skills. Is there a path, have you seen any patterns, for the growth of the person? >> I really think network engineers need to at least understand what the cloud is and why it exists. And they need to understand more about the applications and what they mean to the business. I think we have created a divide sometimes where, you know, my job is just to get packets from point A to B, and I don't really need to understand what we do as an organization, and I think that those days are going to be behind us, we need to understand, you know, what applications are critical, why do we need to build the systems the way that we need to build them and use that information from the business? So I think for network engineers, I think cloud security, understanding applications, and learning the business and being able to talk that language is what's gonna be most valuable to them in their career in the future. >> Yeah, we've heard the term many times, I'm a plumber! Well, I mean, implying that moving packets from A to B. It gets interesting with containers. Policy-based stuff has been known concept in networking, QOS, these are things that are well known, but when we start lookin' at the trends up the stack, we're seeing that kinda thing goin' on, service meshes for instance, they talk about services from a policy standpoint, up the stack. That's always been the challenge for the Ciscos over the past 20 years is, how to move up the stack, should they move up the stack, but I think now seems to be a good time. Your reaction guys, to that notion of moving up the stack while maintaining the purity and the goodness of good networking. (laughing) >> I think that's the big challenge right now, right? The more we mesh it all together and we don't, we don't really define the layers that we've traditionally used, the more challenging it is to have experts in that domain, because the domain just grows so incredibly large. And so there's gotta be a balance here, and I think we're trying to find that, I don't know that we've hit that yet, you know where, where we understand where networking fits into all these pieces, how far into the host, or how far into the application does networking go, we've seen certain applications not using the host TCP/IP stack, right, just to find some sort of performance benefit and it, to me that seems like we're pushing really far into this idea of, you know, well if we don't have standards and define places where these things exist, it's gonna be very much the wild, wild west for a while, until we figure out where everything's going to be. And so I think it just presents challenges and opportunities I don't know that we have the answer about how far it goes yet. >> Well let me ask you a question, a good point by the way, we agree, it's evolving, it's a moving train as they say. But as, people that might be watching that might be a Cisco customer or someone deploying a lot of Cisco networks and products in his portfolio, what's your advice to them, what're you hearing that's a good first three steps to take today? Obviously the show's goin' on here, multi-cloud is in center of the focus, this new network age is here for the CEO. What are some things that people can do now that are safe and good first steps to continue on the journey to whatever this evolves into. >> Well I think as you're building your network you need to think about modularization, you need to think about how to build it in small, manageable pieces, and, even if you're not ready to take the automation step today, you need to think about what that's gonna look like in the future, so, if you really want to automate your network you have to have consistency, consistent policy, consistent configuration across your environment, and it's never too late to start that, or too early to start that, right? And so you can think about, if I wanted to take these 10 sites and I wanted to manage them as one, how would I build it? And you can use that kind of mental framework to help guide the decisions you make, even if you're not ready to jump into a full scale automation from soup to nuts. And also I think, it's important to start playing around with automation technology, there are all kinds of tools to do that, and you can start in an are that's either dev, or QA, that's not gonna be production impacting, but you really need to get your, wrap your hands around some of the tools that exist to automate, and start playing with those. >> Stay where you're comfortable, get in, learn, get hands on. Jordan, your thoughts? >> Yeah, so, I was just over here like nodding my head furiously, 'cause everything she said, I 100% agree with. >> Ditto. (laughing) >> Yes, ditto, exactly. The only thing I would add is that we think about automation a lot in the method of config push. Right, the idea of configuring a device in an automated way, but that's not the only avenue for automation. Start by pulling information from your devices, it is really, really low risk way to start looking at your network programmatically, is to be able to go out to all of your switches, all of your routers, all of your networking devices and pull the same information and correlate that data and get yourself some information that's with a broader view. Does nothing to effect the change or state of your network, but you are now starting to look at your network that way. And I will reiterate Eyvonne's point, you cannot automate a network if it's not repeatable. If every design, every topology, every location is a special snowflake, you will never be able to automate anything because you're gonna have a hundred unique automation scripts to run a hundred unique sites. >> You'd be chasin' your tail big time. >> You'd be chasin' your tail, and so it is critical, if you're not in that state now, what you need to do is start looking how to modularize, and make repeatable config blocks in your network. >> Well guys, thanks for comin' on, Eyvonne, Jordan, thanks for comin' on, appreciate you taking the time. Final question for ya, I know it's day one, we got two more days of live coverage here, but, if you can kinda project, and in your minds eye see the development of the show, what's bubbling up as the most important story that's gonna come out of Cisco Live if you had to look at some early indications from the keynotes and some of the conversations in the hallway, what do you think is the biggest story this year for Cisco Live? >> I think for me personally, I wanna understand what Cisco's cloud strategy looks like, to know where they're going with the cloud and how they're going to help stitch together all the different services that we have. The clouds are becoming their own monolith, they each do things their own way, and still the network is what is stitching all those services together to provide access. And so I think it's important to understand that strategy, and where Cisco's goin'. >> Jordan, your thoughts? >> My, what I'm really looking for from the show this year is how Cisco is gonna make orchestration approachable. We've seen this process of automation where only the hardcore programmers could do it, then we got some tools. And these tools, as we watch as more of Cisco's product platforms start to integrate with each other I think the key piece for enterprise shops that don't have that type of resource on staff is what tools are they gonna give them to make this orchestration, between the way in and the enterprise campus, and into the cloud and in the data center, how do we tie all that together and make that to like a nice, seamless way to operate your network? >> Hey, what a great opportunity to have another podcast called under the hood, see what's goin' on, lot of chops needed, thanks for comin' on, give a quick plug for the address for your podcast, where do we find it, what's the site, Network Collective, obviously you guys are doing great things. Share the coordinates. >> Sure, you can find us at thenetworkcollective.com we usually use the hashtag: #NetworkCollective I'm on Twitter @SharpNetwork. Jordan, you wanna tell people where to find you? >> Sure, @bcjordo on Twitter, and obviously if you wanna interact with Network Collective, @NetCollectivePC on Twitter as well. >> Alright, thanks so much for the commentary, great to have a little shared, little podcast here, live on theCUBE, here in Orlando, I'm John Furrier, with Stu Miniman for our coverage at Cisco Live 2018, stay with us for more, we've got two more days of this, got day one just gettin' started, be right back after this short break. (bubbly music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting accelerating automation with definite brought to you by Cisco. Hey, welcome back. You're ready, Jeff Freak here with the Cube coming to you from our Palo Alto studios with ongoing coverage of Cisco Definite create. We've been going to definite create, I think, since the very beginning. This year, of course. Like everything else, it's it's virtual. So we're excited to cover it virtually and digitally like we have a lot of other shows here in 2020 and we're excited to have our next guest. We've got Kun Jacobs. He's the director of systems engineering. Francisco, Good to see you. Coun. Thank >>you for having me. >>And joining him is Eric Nippy is the VP of system systems Engineering. Francisco. Good to see Eric. >>Good to be here. Thank you. >>Pleasure. So before we jump into kind of what's going on now, in this new great world of program ability and control, I want to kind of go back to the future for a minute. Because when I was doing some research for this interview, it was kun. I saw an old presentation that you were giving from 2006 about the changing evolution of the changing evolution of networking and moving from. I think the theme was a human centered, human centered network, and you were just starting to touch a little bit on video and online video. Oh my goodness, how far we have come. But but I would love to get kind of historical perspective because we've been talking a lot. And I know Eric Son plays football about the football analogy of the network is kind of like an offensive lineman where if they're doing a good job, you don't hear much about them. But they're really important to everything, and the only time you hear about him was when the flag is thrown. So if you look back with the historical perspective load and the numbers and the evolution of the network as we've moved to this modern time and you know thank goodness, because if Cove it hit five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you know all of us in the information space would not have been able to make this transition, so I just I just love to get some historical perspective because you've been kind of charting this and mapping this for a very long time. >>Yeah, we absolutely have. I think you know what you're referring to was back in the day the human network campaign and to your point that the load, the number of hosts, the traffic just overall, the intelligence of the network has just evolved tremendously over the last decade and a half, 15 years or so. And you look at where we are now in terms of the programmable nature of the network and what that enables in terms of new degrees of relevance that we can create for the customers on how you know the role of I t. Has changed entirely again, especially during this pandemic. You know, the fact that it's now as a service and elastic eyes is absolutely fundamental to being able to ensure, on an ongoing basis a great customer experience. And so it's been It's been a very interesting right, indeed. Yeah, >>And then and then just to close the loop, the one of your more later interviews talking to Sylvia. You're the question is, are you developer an engineer? So And your whole advice to all these network engineers is just Just don't jump in and start doing some coding and learning. So you know, the focus and really the emphasis and where the opportunity to differentiate is a complete is completely 15 years over to the, you know, really software to find side. >>Oh, absolutely. So, I mean, you look at how the software world and the network has come together and how we're applying now, you know, basically the same construct of C I C D pipeline to network infrastructure. Look at network really as code and get all of the benefits from that in the familiarity of it, the way that our engineers have had to evolve in that is just, you know, quite quite significant in like the skill set. And the best thing is jump in, you know, dip your toe in the water, but continue to evolve that skill set. And, you know, don't don't be shy. It's It's a leap of faith for some of us who've been in the industry a bit longer. You know, we like to look at ourselves as the craftsman of the network, but now it's definitely software Centris City and the, um, program ability. >>Right? So, Eric, you've got some digital exhaust out there, too, that I was able to dig up Going back to 2000 and 2 752 page book in the very back corner of a dark, dirty, dusty Amazon warehouse is managing Cisco Network Security 752 pages. Wow. How has security changed? From a time where before I could just read a book, a big book, you know, throw some protocols in and probably block a bunch of ports to the world that we live in today, where everything is connected, everything is a p. I driven. Everything is software defined. You've got pieces of workload spread out all over the place. And, Oh, by the way, you need to bake security in at every single level of the application stack. >>Yeah, No eso Wow. Kudos that you you found that book. I'm really impressed there, so thank you. Little street credit. So I want to get on something that you you talked about because I think it's very important to to this overall conversation if we think about the scale of the network and coun hit on it briefly. You talked about it as well. We're seeing a massive explosion of devices by the you know it's estimated By the end of this year, there's gonna be about 27 billion devices on the global Internet. That's about 3.7 devices for every man, woman and child life. And if we extrapolate that out over the course of the next decade on the growth trajectory, we're on. And if you look at some of the published research on this, it's estimated there could be upwards of 500 billion devices accessing the global Internet on a on a daily basis in the primarily that that that is I o T devices. That's digitally connected devices. Anything that can be connected will be connect, but then introduces a really interesting security challenge because every one of those devices that is accessing the global Internet is within a company's infrastructure. Accessing pieces of corporate data is a potential attack factor, so we really need Thio and I think the right expression for this is we need to reimagine security because security is, as you said, not about perimeters. You know, I wrote that book back in 2002. I was talking about firewalls and a cutting edge technology was intrusion, prevention and intrusion detection. Now we need to look at security. Really? In the in the guise of under the under the under the realm of really two aspects the identity. Who is accessing the data in the context, What data is being access and that is going to require a level of intelligence, a level of automation and technologies like machine learning, an automated intelligence. They're going to be our artificial intelligence. Rather are gonna be table stakes because the sheer scale of what we're trying to secure is going to be untenable under current. You know, just current security practices mean the network is gonna have to be incredibly intelligent and leverage again, a lot of that AI type of data to match patterns of potential attacks and ideally, shut them down before they ever cause any type of damage. >>Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, one thing That cove it has done a bunk many things is kind of re taught us all about the power of exponential curves and how extremely large those things are and how fast they grow. We had Dave Rennes in on it Google Cloud a couple years ago, and I remember him talking about early days of Google when they were starting to map out kind of, as you describe kind of map out their growth curves, and they just figured out they could not hire if they hired everybody, they couldn't hire enough people to deal with it, right? So really kind of rethinking automation and re thinking about the way that you manage these things and and the level right, the old Is it a pet or is it or is it, um, part of the herd? And I think it's interesting what you talked about coun really human powered Internet and being driven by a lot of this video. But to what you just said, Erik, the next big wave right is I, O. T and five G. And I think you know, you talk about 3.7 of devices per person. That's nothing compared toa right, all these sensors and all these devices and all these factories because five G is really targeted to machine to machines, which there's ah lot of them, and they trade a lot of information really, really quickly. So, you know, I want to go back to Yukun thinking about this next great wave in a five G i o t kind of driven world where it's kind of like one voice kind of fell off compared to I p traffic on the network, I think you're going to see the same thing. Kind of human generated data relative to machine generated data is also gonna fall off dramatically. Is the machine generated data just skyrockets through the roof? >>Yeah. No, absolutely. And I think thio also what Eric touched on the visibility on that and they'll be able to process that data at the edge that's going to catalyze cloud adoption even further. And it's gonna, you know, make the role of the network the connectivity of it all, and the security within that crucially important. And then you look at the role of program ability. Within that, we're see the evolution going so fast. You look at the element of the software defined network in an I. O. T. Speed space. We see that we have hosts there that are not necessarily, you know, behaving like other hosts would on a network, for example, manufacturing floor production, robot or security camera. And what we're seeing is we're seeing you know, partners and customers employing program ability to make sure that we overcome some of the shortcomings, uh, in terms of where the network is at. But then how do you customize it in terms of the relevance that it can provide, bringing on board those those hosts in a very transparent way on then, you know, keep keep the agility of it and keep the speed of innovation going right, >>right. So, Eric, I want to come back to you and shift gears kind of back to the people will leave the A. D and the machines along along for middle minute. But I'm curious about what does beat the boss. I mean, I I go to your LinkedIn profile and it's just filled with congratulatory statements, but everyone's talking about beating the boss. You know, it's it's a really, you know, kind of interesting and different way toe to motivate people to build this new skill set in terms of getting software certifications within the Cisco world. And I just thought it was really cute the way that you clearly got people motivated because there's posts all over the place and they've all got their their nice big badge of their certification. But, you know, at a higher level, it is a different motivation to be a developer versus and engineering a technician. And it's a, you know, kind of a different point of view. And I just wonder if you could share, you know, some of the ways that you're kind of encouraging, you know, kind of this transformation within your own workforce as well as the partners, etcetera and really adopting kind of almost a software first in this program kind of point of view versus, you know, I'm just wiring stuff up. >>Apparently, a lot of people like to beat me. So I mean, that in of itself was was a was a great success. But, you know, if we think we take a step back, you know, what is Cisco about as an organization? I mean, obviously, he looked back to the very early days of our vision, right? It was. It was to change the way the world, you know, worked, played, live and learn. And if you think about and you hit on this when we were you know, your discussion with with With Kun in the early days of Cove it. We really saw that play out as so much shifted from, you know, in person type of interactions to virtual interactions in the network that that our customers, our partners, our employees built over the course of the last several last three decades really help the world continue Thio to to do business for students to continue to go thio school or, you know, clinicians to connect with patients. If I think about that mission to meet program ability is just the next generation of that mission, uh, continuing to enable the world to communicate, continuing to enable customers, employees, partners to, uh, essentially leverage the network for more than just connectivity. Now the leverage it for critical insight again, If we look at some of the some of the use cases that we're seeing for social distancing and contact tracing, the network has a really important place to play there because we can pull insight from the but it isn't necessarily and out of the box type of integration. So I look at program ability and and what we're doing with debt net to give relevance to the network for those types of really critical conversations that every organization is having right now. It's a way to extrapolate its away thio full critical data so that I can make a decision and I if that decisions automated or if that decision requires some type of a manual intervention, regardless, we're still about connecting, or in this case, we're connecting insight with the people who need it most. The definite pounds we ran is really in respect for how critical this new skills that's going to be. It's not enough. Like I said, just to connect the world anymore. We need to leverage that network, the network for that critical insight. And when we dropped were created to beat the boss challenge, it was really simple. Hey, guys, I think this is important and I am going to go out, and I'm gonna achieve the certification myself because I want to continue to be very relevant. I'm gonna continue to be able to provide that insight for my customers and partners. So therefore I'm going for it. Anybody can get there before me. Maybe there's a little incentive tied to and the incentive, although it's funny, we interviewed a lot of ah, a lot of our team who achieved it Incentive with secondary. They just wanted have bragging rights like, Yeah, I beat Eric, Right, Right. >>Absolutely. No, that Z you know, put your money where your mouth is, right? If it's important than what you know, you should do it too. And you know, the whole not asking people to do what you wouldn't do yourself. So I think there's a lot of good leadership, uh, leadership lessons there as well. But I wanna extend kind of the conversation on the Koven impact. Right? Because I'm sure you've seen all the social media means you know who's driving your digital transformation, the CEO of the CMO or cove it. And we all know the answer to the question. But you know, you guys have already been dealing with kind of increased complexity around enterprise infrastructure, world in terms of cloud and public cloud and hybrid cloud and multi cloud, and people are trying to move stuff all the way around. Now suddenly had this co vid moment right in March, which is really a light switch moment. People didn't have time to plan or prepare for suddenly everybody working from home and it's not only you but your spouse and your kids and everybody else. So but now we're six months plus into this thing, and I would just love to get your perspective, you know, and kind of the change from Oh, my goodness, we have to react to the light switch moment. What do we do to make sure people can can get get what they need when they need it from where they are? But but then really moving from this is an emergency situation. Stopgap situation toe. This is going to extend for some period of time. And even when it's the acute crisis is over, you know this is going to drive. Ah, riel change in the way that people communicate in the way that people where they sit and do their job and kind of how customers are responding accordingly as the you know, kind of the narrative has changed from an emergency stop gap to this is the new normal that we really need thio to plan for. >>So I think I think you said it very well. I think anything that could be digitized any any interaction that could be driven virtually waas. And what's interesting is we, as you said. We went from that light switch moment where, and I believe the status this and I'll probably get the number wrong. But like in the United States here at the beginning, at the end of February, about 2% of the knowledge worker population was virtual, you know, working from home or in a remote work environment. And over the course of about 11 days, that number went from 2% to 70% in interesting that it worked. You know, there was a lot of hiccups along the way, and there was a lot of organizations making really quick decisions on How do I enable VPN scale of mass? How doe I, you know, leverage. You know, things like WebEx for virtual meetings in virtual connectivity much faster now that as you said that we've kind of gotten out of the fog of war or frog fog of battle organizations, we're looking at what they accomplished. And it was nothing short of Herculean and looking at this now from a transition. Thio Oh my gosh, we need to change, too. We have an opportunity to change and we're looking. We see a lot of organizations specifically around financial services, health care through the K through 20 educational environment, all looking at how can they doom or virtually for a couple of reasons? Obviously, there is a significant safety factor, and again, we're still in that we're still in the height of this pandemic. They want to make sure their employees, their customers, students patients remain safe. But second, we've found in discussions with a lot of senior I T executives and our customers that people are happier working from home. People are more productive working from home. And that again, the network that's been built over the course of the last few decades has been resilient enough to allow that to happen. And then, third, there is a potential cost savings here outside of people. The next most expensive resource that organizations are paying for is real estate. If they can shrink that real estate footprint while providing a better user experience at the locations that they're maintaining again leveraging things like location services, leveraging things like, uh, unified collaboration that's very personalized to the end users experience, they're going to do that and again they're going to save money. They're gonna have happier employees, and ultimately they're gonna make their their employees in their customers a lot safer. So we see, we believe that there is in some parts of the economy, a shift that is going to be more permanent. And some estimates put it as high as 15% of the current workforce is going to stay today in a virtual or a semi virtual working environment for the foreseeable future. >>Interesting. And I would say I'd say 15% is low, especially if you if you qualify it with, you know, part time, right? There was a great interview were doing and, you know, talk about working from home. He used to work from home as the exception, right? Because the cable person was coming or you get a new washing machine or something, where now that's probably get, you know, in many cases will shift to the other where I'm generally gonna work from home unless you know somebody's in town or have an important meeting or there's some special collaboration. Uh, that drives me to be in. But, you know, I wanna go back to Yukun and and really doubled down on. You know, I think most people spend too much time focusing, especially. We'll just say within the virtual events base where we play on the things you can't do virtually. We can't meet in the hall. We can't grab a quick coffee to drink instead of focusing on the positive things like we're accomplishing right here. You're in Belgium, right? Eric is in Ohio, were in California. Um, and you know, we didn't take three days to travel and and check into a hotel and and all that stuff to get together for this period of time. So there's a lot of stuff that digital enables. And I think, you know, people need to focus more on that versus continuing to focus on the two or three things that that it doesn't replace, and it doesn't replace those. So let's just get that off the table and move on with our lives because those are coming back anytime soon. >>No, totally. I think it's the balance of those things. It's guarding the fact that you're not necessarily working for home. I think the trick there is you could be sleeping at the office, but I think the positives airway way more out spoken. I you know, I look at myself I got much more exercise time in these last couple of months than I usually do because you don't travel. You don't have the jet lag and the connection. And then you talked about those face to face moments. I think a lot of people are, in a way, wanting to go back to the office part time, as Eric also explained. But a lot of it you could do virtually. We have virtual coffees with team or, you know, even here in Belgium are are local. General manager has, ah, virtual aperitif. Every Friday obviously skipped the one this week. But you know, there's there's ways to be very creative with the technology and the quality of the technology that the network enables, Um, you know, to to get the basketball world right, >>So I just we're gonna wrap the segment. I wanna give you guys both the last word. You both Francisco for a while and you know, Susie, we and the team on Definite has really grown this thing. I think we were there at the very beginning couple of 456 years ago. I can't keep track of time anymore, but you know, it's really really grown. And, you know, the timing is terrific to get into this more software defined world, which is where we are. I wonder if you could just, you know, kind of share a couple of thoughts is, you know, with a little bit of perspective. And you know what you're excited about today and kind of what you see coming down the road. Since you guys have been there for a while, you've been in the space. Uh, let's start with Yukun. >>Okay? I think the possibility it creates, I think, really program ability, software defined is really about the art of the possible. It's what you can dream up and then go code Eric talked about the relevance of it and how it maximizes that relevance. And a customer base is, um, you know, and then it is the evolution off the teams in terms of the creativity that they can bring to it. We're seeing really people dive into that in customers, um, co creating with us on. I think that's where we're going in terms of like the evolution off the value proposition there in terms of what technology can provide, but also how it impacts people as we discussed and and redefines process. >>I love that the art of the possible, which is a lot harder to execute in, uh, hardware than software certainly takes a lot longer. >>America, I >>love to get your thoughts. >>Absolutely. So I started my career in Cisco turning, putting I P phones onto the network. And back then, you know, it was, you know, 1 4002 when three idea of putting telephones onto the network was such a of just such an objectionable idea. And so many purists were telling us all the reasons it wouldn't work. Now, if we go forward again 19 years, the idea of not having them plugging into the network is a ridiculous idea. So we have a We're looking at an inflection point in this industry, and it's really it's not about programming is not necessarily about programming. It's about doing it smarter. It's about being more efficient. It's about driving automation. But again, it's about unlocking the value of what the network is. We've moved so far past what you know, just connectivity. The network touches everything and is more workload. Moves to the cloud is more workload moves to things like containers. The network is the really the only common element that ties all of these things together. The network needs to take its rightful place, uh, in the in the i t. Lexicon as being that critical for that critical insight provider for for how users are interacting with the network. How users air interacting with applications, how applications are interacting with one another. Program ability is a way to do that more efficiently with greater, greater degree of certainty, with much greater relevance into the overall delivery of I t services and digitization. So to me, I think we're gonna look back 20 years from now, probably even 10 and say, Man, we used to configure things manually. What was that like? I think I think really, this is This is the future, and I think we want to be aligned with where we're going versus where we've been. >>Well, coun Eric. Thank you for sharing your perspective. You know, it's it's really nice to have, you know, some historical reference on. It's also nice to be living in a new age where you can you can, you know, stay at the same company and and still refresh. You know, new challenges, new opportunities and grow this thing because a zoo said I remember those i p first i p phone days and I thought, Well, Ma Bell must be happy because the old Mother's Day problem is finally solved when we don't have to have a >>dedicated connection >>between every mother and every child in the middle of May. So good news. So thank you very much for sharing your, uh, your insights and really, really enjoyed the conversation. >>Thank you. >>Yeah. All >>right. He's kun. He was Eric. I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube for continuing coverage of Cisco Definite Connect. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.