(upbeat techno music) >> Live from Barcelona Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, The Cloud Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back, this is The Cube's coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019. I'm Stu Miniman with Corey Quinn as my cohost, even though he says kucon. And joining us on this segment, we're not going debate how we pronounce certain things, but I will try to make sure that I get Bridget Kromhout correct. She is a Principle Cloud Advocate at Microsoft. Thank you for coming back to The Cube. >> Thank you for having me again. This is fun! >> First of all I do have to say, the bedazzled shirt is quite impressive. We always love the sartorial, ya know, view we get at a show like this because there are some really interesting shirts and there is one guy in a three-piece suit. But ya know-- >> There is, it's the high style, got to have that. >> Oh, absolutely. >> Bringing some class to the joint. >> Wearing a suit is my primary skill. (laughing) >> I will tell you that, yes, they sell this shirt on the Microsoft company store. And yes, it's only available in unisex fitted. Which is to say much like Alice Goldfuss likes to put it, ladies is gender neutral. So, all of the gentleman who say, but I have too much dad bod to wear that shirt! I say, well ya know get your bedazzlers out. You too can make your own shirt. >> I say it's not dad bod, it's a father figure, but I digress. (laughing) >> Exactly! >> Alright, so Bridget you're doing some speaking at the conference. You've been at this show a few times. Tell us, give us a bit of an overview of what you're doing here and your role at Microsoft these days. >> Absolutely. So, my talk is tomorrow and I think that, I'm going to go with its a vote of confidence that they put your talk on the last day at 2:00 P.M. instead of the, oh gosh, are they trying to bury it? But no, it's, I have scheduled enough conferences myself that I know that you have to put some stuff on the last day that people want to go to, or they're just not going to come. And my talk is about, and I'm co-presenting with my colleague, Jessica Deen, and we're talking about Helm 3. Which is to say, I think a lot of times it would, with these open-sourced shows people say, oh, why do you have to have a lot of information about the third release of your, third major release of your project? Why? It's just an iterative release. It is, and yet there are enough significant differences that it's kind of valuable to talk about, at least the end user experience. >> Yeah, so it actually got an applause in the keynote, ya know. (Bridget laughing) There are certain shows where people are hootin' and hollerin' for every, different compute instance that that is released and you look at it a little bit funny. But at the keynote there was a singular moment where it was the removal of Tiller which Corey and I have been trying to get feedback from the community as to what this all means. >> It seems, from my perspective, it seemed like a very strange thing. It's, we added this, yay! We added this other thing, yay! We're taking this thing and ripping it out and throwing it right into the garbage and the crowd goes nuts. And my two thoughts are first, that probably doesn't feel great if that was the thing you spent a lot of time working on, but secondly, I'm not as steep in the ecosystem as perhaps I should be and I don't really know what it does. So, what does it do and why is everyone super happy to con sine it to the dub rubbish bin of history? >> Right, exactly. So, first of all, I think it's 100% impossible to be an expert on every single vertical in this ecosystem. I mean, look around, KubeCon has 7,000 plus people, about a zillion vendor booths. They're all doing something that sounds slightly, overlapping and it's very confusing. So, in the Helm, if you, if people want to look we can say there's a link in the show notes but there, we can, people can go read on Helm.sh/blog. We have a seven part, I think, blog series about exactly what the history and the current release is about. But the TLDR, the too long didn't follow the link, is that Helm 1 was pretty limited in scope, Helm 2 was certainly more ambitious and it was born out of a collaboration between Google actually and a few other project contributors and Microsoft. And, the Tiller came in with the Google folks and it really served a need at that specific time. And it was, it was a server-side component. And this was an era when the Roll by Stacks has control and Kubernetes was, well nigh not existent. And so there were a lot of security components that you kind of had to bolt on after the fact, And once we got to, I think it was Kubernetes 1.7 or 1.8 maybe, the security model had matured enough that instead of it being great to have this extra component, it became burdensome to try to work around the extra component. And so I think that's actually a really good example of, it's like you were saying, people get excited about adding things. People sometimes don't get excited about removing things, but I think people are excited about the work that went into, removing this particular component because it ends up reducing the complexity in terms of the configuration for anyone who is using this system. >> It felt very spiritually aligned in some ways, with the announcement of Open Telemetry, where you're taking two projects and combining them into one. >> Absolutely. >> Where it's, oh, thank goodness, one less thing that-- >> Yes! >> I have to think about or deal with. Instead of A or B I just mix them together and hopefully it's a chocolate and peanut butter moment. >> Delicious. >> One of the topics that's been pretty hot in this ecosystem for the last, I'd say two years now it's been service matched, and talk about some complexity. And I talk to a guy and it's like, which one of these using? Oh I'm using all three of them and this is how I use them in my environment. So, there was an announcement spearheaded by Microsoft, the Service Mesh Interface. Give us the high level of what this is. >> So, first of all, the SMI acronym is hilarious to me because I got to tell you, as a nerdy teenager I went to math camp in the summertime, as one did, and it was named SMI. It was like, Summer Mathematics Institute! And I'm like, awesome! Now we have a work project that's named that, happy memories of lots of nerdy math. But my first Unix system that I played with, so, but what's great about that, what's great about that particular project, and you're right that this is very much aligned with, you're an enterprise. You would very much like to do enterprise-y things, like being a bank or being an airline or being an insurance company, and you super don't want to look at the very confusing CNCF Project Map and go, I think we need something in that quadrant. And then set your ships for that direction, and hopefully you'll get to what you need. And it's especially when you said that, you mentioned that, this, it basically standardizes it, such that whichever projects you want to use, whichever of the N, and we used to joke about JavaScript framework for the week, but I'm pretty sure the Service Mesh Project of the week has outstripped it in terms of like speed, of new projects being released all the time. And like, a lot of end user companies would very much like to start doing something and have it work and if the adorable start-up that had all the stars on GitHub and the two contributors ends up, and I'm not even naming a specific one, I'm just saying like there are many projects out there that are great technically and maybe they don't actually plan on supporting your LTS. And that's fine, but if we end up with this interface such that whatever service mesh, mesh, that's a hard word. Whatever service mesh technology you choose to use, you can be confident that you can move forward and not have a horrible disaster later. >> Right, and I think that's something that a lot of developers when left to our own devices and in my particular device, the devices are pretty crappy. Where it becomes a, I want to get this thing built, and up and running and working, and then when it finally works I do a happy dance. And no one wants to see that, I promise. It becomes a very different story when, okay, how do you maintain this? How do you responsibly keep this running? And it's, well I just got it working, what do you mean maintain it? I'm done, my job is done, I'm going home now. It turns out that when you have a business that isn't being the most clever person in the room, you sort of need to have a longer term plan around that. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> And it's nice to see that level of maturation being absorbed into the ecosystem. >> I think the ecosystem may finally be ready for it. And this is, I feel like, it's easy for us to look at examples of the past, people kind of shake their heads at OpenStack as a cautionary tale or of Sprawl and whatnot. But this is a thriving, which means growing, which means changing, which means very busy ecosystem. But like you're pointing out, if your enterprises are going to adapt some of this technology, they look at it and everyone here was, ya know, eating cupcakes or whatever for the Kubernetes fifth birthday, to an enterprise just 'cause that launched in 2014, June 2014, that sounds kind of new. >> Oh absolutely. >> Like, we're still, we're still running that mainframe that is still producing business value and actually that's fine. I mean, I think this maybe is one of the great things about a company like Microsoft, is we are our customers. Like we also respect the fact that if something works you don't just yolo a new thing out into production to replace it for what reason? What is the business value of replacing it? And I think for this, that's why this, kind of Unix philosophy of the very modular pieces of this ecosystem and we were talking about Helm a little earlier, but there's also, Draft, Brigade, etc. Like the Porter, the CNET spec implementation stuff, and this Cloud Native application bundles, that's a whole mouthful. >> Yes, well no disrespect to your sparkly shirt, but chasing the shiny thing, and this is new and exciting is not necessarily a great thing. >> Right? >> I heard some of the shiny squad that were on the show floor earlier, complaining a little bit about the keynotes, that there haven't been a whole lot of new service and feature announcements. (Bridget laughing) And my opinion on that is feature not bug. I, it turns out most of us have jobs that aren't keeping up with every new commit to an open-source project. >> I think what you were talking about before, this idea of, I'm the developer, I yolo'd out this co-load into production, or I yolo'd this out into production. It is definitely production grade as long as everything stays on the happy path, and nothing unexpected happens. And I probably have air handling, and, yay! We had the launch party, we're drinkin' and eatin' and we're happy and we don't really care that somebody is getting paged. And, it's probably burning down. And a lot of human misery is being poured into keeping it working. I like to think that, considering that we're paying attention to our enterprise customers and their needs, they're pretty interested in things that don't just work on day one, but they work on day two and hopefully day 200 and maybe day 2000. And like, that doesn't mean that you ship something once and you're like, okay, we don't have to change it for three years. It's like, no, you ship something, then you keep iterating on it, you keep bug fixing, you keep, sure you want features, but stability is a feature. And customer value is a feature. >> Well, Bridget I'm glad you brought that up. Last thing I want to ask you 'cause Microsoft's a great example, as you say, as a customer, if you're an Azure customer, I don't ask you what version of Azure you're running or whether you've done the latest security patch that's in there because Microsoft takes care of you. Now, your customers that are pulled between their two worlds is, oh, wait, I might have gotten rid of patch Tuesdays, but I still have to worry and maintain that environment. How are they dealing with, kind of that new world and still have, certain things that are going to stay the old way that they have been since the 90's or longer? >> I mean, obviously it's a very broad question and I can really only speak to the Kubernetes space, but I will say that the customers really appreciate, and this goes for all the Cloud providers, when there is something like the dramatic CVE that we had in December for example. It's like, oh, every Kubernetes cluster everywhere is horribly insecure! That's awesome! I guess, your API gateway is also an API welcome mat for everyone who wants to, do terrible things to your clusters. All of the vendors, Microsoft included, had their managed services patched very quickly. They're probably just like your Harple's of the world. If you rolled your own, you are responsible for patching, maintaining, securing your own. And this is, I feel like that's that tension. That's that continuum we always see our customers on. Like, they probably have a data center full of ya know, veece, fear and sadness, and they would very much like to have managed happiness. And that doesn't mean that they can easily pickup everything in the data center, that they have a lease on and move it instantly. But we can work with them to make sure that, hey, say you want to run some Kubernetes stuff in your data center and you also want to have AKS. Hey, there's this open-source project that we instantiated, that we worked on with other organizations called Vertual Kubelet. There was actually a talk happening about it I think in the last hour, so people can watch the video of that. But, we have now offered, we now have Virtual Node, our product version of it in GA. And I think this is kind of that continuum. It's like, yes of course, you're early adapters want the open-source to play with. Your enterprises want it to be open-source so they can make sure that their security team is happy having reviewed it. But, like you're saying, they would very much like to consume a service so they can get to business value. Like they don't necessarily want to, take, Kelsey's wonderful Kubernetes The Hard Way Tutorial and put that in production. It's like, hmm, probably not, not because they can't, these are smart people, they absolutely could do that. But then they spent their, innovation tokens as, the McKinley blog post puts it, the, it's like, choose boring technology. It's not wrong. It's not that boring is the goal, it's that you want the exciting to be in the area that is producing value for your organization. Like that's where you want most of your effort to go. And so if you can use well vetted open-source that is cross industry standard, stuff like SMI that is going to help you use everything that you chose, wisely or not so wisely, and integrate it and hopefully not spend a lot of time redeveloping. If you redevelop the same applications you already had, its like, I don't think at the end of the quarter anybody is getting their VP level up. If you waste time. So, I think that is, like, one of the things that Microsoft is so excited about with this kind of open-source stuff is that our customers can get to value faster and everyone that we collaborate with in the other clouds and with all of these vendor partners you see on the show floor, can keep the ecosystem moving forward. 'Cause I don't know about you but I feel like for a while we were all building different things. I mean like, instead of, for example, managed services for something like Kubernetes, I mean a few jobs that would go out was that a start up that we, we built our own custom container platform, as one did in 2014. And, we assembled it out of all the LEGOs and we built it out of I think Docker and Packer and Chef and, AWS at the time and, a bunch of janky bash because like if someone tells you there's no janky bash underneath your home grown platform, they are lying. >> It's always a lie, always a lie. >> They're lying. There's definitely bash in there, they may or may not be checking exit codes. But like, we all were doing that for a while and we were all building, container orchestration systems because we didn't have a great industry standard, awesome! We're here at KubeCon. Obviously Kubernetes is a great industry standard, but everybody that wants to chase the shiny is like but surface meshes. If I review talks for, I think I reviewed talks for KubeCon in Copenhagen, and it was like 50 or 60 almost identical service mesh talk proposals. And it's like, and then now, like so that was last year and now everyone is like server lists and its like, you know you still have servers. Like you don't add sensation to them, which is great, but you still have them. I think that that hype train is going to keep happening and what we need to do is make sure that we keep it usable for what the customers are trying to accomplish. Does that make sense? >> Bridget, it does, and unfortunately, we're going to have to leave it there. Thank you so much for sharing everything with our audience here. For Corey, I'm Stu, we'll be back with more coverage. Thanks for watching The Cube. (upbeat techno music)

>> Hi, Lisa Martin, on the ground, with the Cube at Google for the sixth annual CloudNOW Top Women in Cloud awards. And we are very excited to be joined by our next guest, Bridgit Kromhout, the principal Cloud developer advocate from Microsoft. Welcome to the Cube! >> Welcome, to me, wait. You know what? I feel like, it's so funny. I spend so much time hosting podcasts that I'm primed to start welcoming guests. (laughter) So. >> Well, thank you. I feel very welcomed. >> Hi. Thank you so much for having me. >> And we love your Microsoft-reflected hair extensions. That's so fantastic (laughter) So, Bridgit, you are a computer scientist by training, what was your education like? Were you a STEM kid from grade school all the way through graduating college? >> Yeah, it's kind of funny. I actually wasn't and I think that there's maybe a take away there for people who think, oh, it would be too hard to switch into computers. There's too much to learn. I mean, yes, there is a lot to learn, but I didn't have a computer until I was 16, so, and, I didn't know I was going to major in Computer Science until I took a programming class and realized I loved it and dropped all my other classes and completely switched my major. And I think that there's probably a lot of opportunities today that there weren't back when I did this in the 90's. You know, all sorts of boot camps and that sort of thing, but I think probably just that you can choose to go into tech from any starting point. ' Cause, like, not having a computer as a kid, I would go over to friend's houses and play Oregon Trail and, you know, Dive Dysentery, but I wouldn't have that at home and I turned out fine. >> Well, I love that you took a class and you tried it and that was transformative. I think that's one of the great lessons that even your experience can share is, try it. >> Absolutely. >> And it probably opened up your world too. Did it, well yeah, let's talk about that. >> Yeah. >> Did it open up your world to expose more of what computer science is than what you may have thought? >> You know, I had gone to some summer math camps as a teenager and you know, played around with fractals and you know, programs to generate fractals, like on the, I think it was probably SJI workstations, that the college we were at had and it was interesting to me but maybe not necessarily something I could take action on until I got to college and got access to unit systems and it's like the little kid in Jurassic Park, this is a unit system. I know this. (laughter) You know, I think that getting the opportunity to try things, whether it's in an academic setting or just with all of the free resources that are available today, it's super important. >> So, you went to the University of Minnesota, what surprised your or delighted you through your curriculum in computer science, when you were there? >> You know, it's kind of funny. I feel like there was a lot of emphasis on algorithms and data structures and probably, because I was working for the CS department as a Student Systems Administrator at the same time, I kept thinking like, well bigger notation, this is great, but let's talk about troubleshooting things on this, you know, Solaris system, because that's what I would actually do and I think that there is, I've come to realize over time that there's a lot of benefit to both. Like, you could spend a lot of time going down a rabbit hole if you don't have a firm theoretical background of what's actually possible, and how you can speed up a system. So, it's good to have that theoretical background, but I think it's also really important to focus on the like, the observability and the usability of systems and your detailed troubleshooting steps. I think of it like, you spent a lot of time in college taking classes where they emphasize the Scientific Method and you learning to prove that gravity works was never the point. >> Right. >> Because, obviously, we all know that but you learning how to isolate variables and observe accurately, helps a lot in terms of solving problems in production systems later. >> Good insight. So, you're very involved in the community. You are, you mentioned, podcasts. You go to conferences. You blog. What inspires you to share your knowledge, your experiences, and be involved in the community? >> I mean, I think that I had a manager some years ago who encouraged me to speak at a local UN conference and I brought a co-worker and spoke with him and it was a very new experience for me and I was nervous and what I realized is, that the room was full of people who, they weren't there to stare at me or judge me, they were there because they really hoped to get some insights for things they were trying to do and I think realizing that, whatever it is that you're putting out there in the world, people aren't looking at it to judge you, they're looking at it 'cause they need something and realizing that makes it so much more interesting and also, less scary to share. >> I imagine rewarding, as well. >> I think so. Like, especially because people are often looking for ways that they can drive change inside their organization, how they can convince somebody to use the exciting new framework or the exciting new, you know, container orchestration or whatever, that they're trying to use. Like, a lot of times, people who are paying attention to the wider world of tech really want to use exciting new things, but, hey, spoiler alert, if you work in a company with more than two people, there will probably be at least two opinions. >> Yeah. (laughter) >> So, you have to. >> You can basically go and do that, right? >> Yeah. Right? >> Yeah. >> So, you have to have not just all the technical background. I like to joke that, you know, I majored in Computer Science 'cause I didn't want to talk to people and, oops, turns out, tech is full of humans. Software is made of people. >> Yep, right. >> Like sort of an ingredient, right? >> Yeah. >> And, it's like, you can't, you can't avoid that and I say, just embrace it. >> I love that. Do you have any themes to your podcasts or to your blogs? >> Yeah, I think there's a talk I gave a number of times in the last year called, Containers Will Not Fix Your Broken Culture And Other Hard Truths. >> Interesting. >> And, then I gave, I decided a few months after I gave that one enough times that I was bored of hearing myself talk, I started giving one called Computers Are Easy, People Are Hard, because I think that the tech stuff that we're all excited about has a lot of socio-technical components, in terms of the interactions. >> Yeah. >> Like, every single technical choice you want to make has a certain weight and gravity to it of the way the other people feel about how you maybe made their job harder or easier or maybe that they now feel displaced. Maybe they're not sure what their place is in the exciting new world where you changed everything out from under them and they were just hoping to hold on a couple years more, until they retired and I think, as a mid-career professional, shall we put it that way? I, of course, I see all the kids these days TM, but I also see and sympathize with all the people who, who really prefer the industry not have another giant C change right this second. >> Right. >> 'Cause they kind of just want to vest and get out and it's like, I think we have to be empathetic and understanding of everyone's perspective along that entire spectrum, 'cause there's a lot of benefit to exciting change and there's also a lot of benefit to contextual knowledge of your local environment. >> Right. >> And, it's like, people at different ends of, you know, their career trajectory have you know, a varying degree of either of those, and I think it's really important and positive to listen to everyone. >> I love that because culture is something that we talk about a lot with technology executives that we're talking to in the Cube, whether it's a C level or a line of business manager or a product person and cultural change is hard. >> Really hard. >> To impact but, you bring up a great point about where you are on the career trajectory. You're opinions or experience is going to influence that. >> It totally will. I mean, especially because, so, I just started a couple months ago, working at Microsoft. I spent the two years before that working at Pivotal, talking to a lot of our customers in large enterprises and governments and you know, banks and that sort of thing and you have a lot of resistance to and fear of change when it feels like the stakes are really high and there's a lot of uncertainty and so, anywhere that, from a technical point of view, you can help with that uncertainty. Whether it's by, instead of the artisanally, hand-whittled servers in your data center, maybe looking at public Cloud, anything that can make steps more reproducible, so that you don't have to cling so much to what you were doing before and can, hopefully, extend past that. Like, there's a lot of places where that the exciting wave of IT improvement that a lot of orgs are doing intersects with people's desire to maybe have challenges but also, still feel valued. Like, there's a lot of places where, considering those human factors, when making exciting organizational change happen, which everybody needs to for their profit motives or you know, their organizational mission, in general. I think it's really beneficial. >> Speaking of feeling valued, who do you value? Who are some of your mentors that inspire you today? >> You know, it's funny you should ask that because I feel like mentorship is one of those things where I have a giant question mark. I'm not sure if I've had it done right or have ever done it right or whatever. I would say I'm definitely inspired by a lot of the women I know in technology. In particular, like, for example, Jessie Frazelle. I happen to work on the same team with her now at Microsoft, which we did not, either of us, know that the other one was going there when I had her keynote, Dev Up Stays Minneapolis, last summer and then, in just a couple months later, it was like, oh, you're going to Microsoft? What team? We're going to the same team. This is fantastic! >> Wow, that's great. >> But, I bring her up as an example because I think that if you, no matter how long you've been in tech and she's younger than I am and has been in tech a shorter amount of time, and yet, like, she both contributes, you know, solid technical content. She has commits in the Linux kernel, but she also makes sure to put information out there to help other people. I think that, that's a really, it's what I look up to and what I try to emulate is it's great to be technical, but we also have to be human. >> I love that. Well, Bridget, thank you so much for stopping by the Cube and sharing your story and congrats on the award. >> Thank you so much. >> We thank you for watching again. Lisa Martin, on the ground, with the Cube at Google for the CloudNow Top Women in Cloud Awards. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)