>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco It's the Cube. Covering DevNet Create 2017. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Welcome back everyone. Live in San Francisco, this is the Cube's exclusive coverage of the inaugural event for Cisco systems DevNet Create. It's an extension or augmentation, a foot in the water of the new open source world for them. Cloud native DevOps infrastructure is code. It's Cisco's new mission, where applications meets infrastructure AKA infrastructure's code which is music to the ears of DevOps and all application developers. I'm John Furrier. My cohost Peter Burris, Head of Research at wikibon.com. Our next guest is Bradley Wong, Director of Product Management at Docker. Bradley welcome to the Cube. Good to see you again. >> Yeah, great, Thanks John. >> Docker, no other company to reference in terms of being a shining star in a paradigm shift or transformation where containers, Docker containers, and now containers and Kubernetes microservices has taken cloud and brought it into a whole nother dimension. We've been covering you guys at all your Dockercon events. It's been gray multiple years. Congratulations for your success. >> Bradley: Thank you. >> You got to be happy that you got Cisco coming out saying hey we're going to make the network programmable. Finally! You know, let's do it. Thoughts? >> Yeah, we're very excited about that. It's kind of interesting because we also found that networking is also one of those things that's quite difficult. And we saw this challenge probably about more than two years ago, after people started to get more comfortable with containers and they wanted to start doing some more interesting things with them and start getting the containers to talk to each other and the rest of the world. That's kind of really where we saw that networking could be improved upon. And I think maybe you remember, probably about two years ago now, maybe more actually, we made an acquisition company called SocketPlane? >> John: Yep. That really helped us define what it means to really do networking properly. And that was actually the genesis of where even the Cisco partnership also started devolving as well, because at Docker we really needed to build out a framework for how to do networking properly internally first. And we always followed a mantra, the mandate of batteries included but swappable. So, we built a reference implementation of what it meant to do networking properly for containers. But, in doing so we also then worked quite closely with Cisco to also bring their many, many years of expertise to the table as well. So, and you can probably see that now with the culmination of projects like Contiv, which is actually now a certified plug-in on Docker store. Cisco's really stepped it up and has really made lots of really great inroads and done a lot of good additions to Docker networking. >> It always seems that way. The conversation, we've been also following a lot of other communities, like OpenStack for instance, there's always debates but it always gets down to ay the network, network. I've had so many customers (mumbles) It's really hard. And also you see Cisco get pulled into conversations just but gravity pulling them in because they're the network guys. So now, it's nice to see that the executives at Cisco, led by Susie Wee and the team and Rick, not just puttin' their toe in the water, they're jumpin' in the deep end here with the cloud native approach by going to developers and outreaching to them in a different way and saying look it, we want to make your life easier. >> Bradley: Absolutely. >> That's what you guys have done. So certainly a success to you guys who are in Cisco, doing the work around the fringes but now that they're coming in, how do you, how would you tell someone, describe that move for Cisco? I mean, obviously Cisco has not been absent. They've been there with you guys. >> Bradley: Yeah. >> What does this really mean for them as they go fully committing here now? Right, that's a good question. Cisco is beyond just a, obviously, a networking company that's kind of' where it's roots came from. But we saw that there was some good opportunities to work with Cisco, not just on networking but a few other things. I think what a lot of people probably get familiar with Docker because it's a great development tool to start. And that's really where people's first interactions with Docker really is. It's really easy to get started, really easy to start building your applications in Docker, and start moving those applications into other environments, like going from Dev into Tes into Prod very, very seamlessly. So, Docker really becomes that sort of what we call a software supply chain that really enable Dev and Ops to use the same tooling, the same tool chain, end to end. And we feel that if we're able to use the same tool chain end to end, from Dev all the way through to Ops, we alleviate a lot of the challenges to deploying applications to production. Now, Cisco so far has been very, very strong in the Ops space, very strong in the infrastructure space, and we also come very, very strongly from the developer space as well. So, I think as we basically build out this software supply chain, there also is a need to make sure that there is this kind of underlying infrastructure that's also ready to run that software supply chain as well and to really harden it. And that's what, one of the first things that we really did with Cisco is to make sure that we have a very clear vision of how to make that operationalizable for the enterprise. >> Second time I've heard the word software supply chain. Peter's also used the word data supply chain. Data is asset (mumbles) software. Software is an asset. It's data as well. What is software supply chain mean? Describe that for a second. Take a minute to explain. >> So yeah, that's a good question. So in any supply chain I think there's sort of a progression of where there's inputs, where things come in and for us, we're on a mission to build tools of mass innovation. So, we really want to start with the developer and that's really where a lot of really good stuff comes from. Everyone's got great ideas and we piece those ideas together, give them the tools that they know how to use really well to develop them. But, it's not just good to have great applications, they need to be usable and they need to be able to be deployed. And what we believe the software supply chain is taking that development process and being able to have developers put their artifacts inside containers and then move those, because that's really what it is, it's actually moving those artifacts into places where they can be shared with greater teams to start testings those and to start iterating on those. And ultimately to move those into production whether it's on premise or whether it's in the cloud. And that's what we believe that we enable, is that movement of, and that >> John: Coding motion. >> Exactly. Exactly. And that doesn't stop there because, as you know, code is not stable. There's always iterative process and we enable that as well. So then , as we find issues or enhancements that we want to fix in production, we move that back to developer and that whole process starts again. Be able to do that really, really, quickly is what we want to do. >> So let's stay in that metaphor for a second. If we think about this as a software supply chain, Does that make Cisco a logistics supplier? >> I would say, with any supply chain, Cisco, once again, has lot's of different areas that they're focusing in and by no means am I speaking on behalf of Cisco where >> Peter: I understand. Just conceptually, are they the Ryder trucking, are they the ones responsible for moving things around? >> Yes, that's one of the places that Cisco does play very, very strongly in. For example, we identified that the computer platform that Cisco has, the UCS platform, is a great place to actually run Docker in production, especially on premise. And that's definitely one of the things that we needed to start validating, all these different infrastructures, that can actually have the right availability, the right performance characteristics, and things that then we can do together to make sure that these are essentially solid infrastructures to actually run these production environments on. Now, Cisco's been running solid enterprise infrastructure for many, many years. Docker's been running Dockerize applications also for many years as well. The marriage of the two, we hope and we believe that will culminate in a lot of the enterprises, which were very accountable at running enterprise applications on top of enterprise infrastructure, to now run Docker applications on enterprise infrastructure as well. So, just making sure that there is very, very good infrastructure that's in place to actually host that supply chain, I think that's definitely one of the key areas that we are hoping to get out of this partnership with Cisco. >> So now that we've talked about here in the last couple days (mumbles) is Conway's Law. And I'm sure you're familiar with Conway's Law. >> Bradley: Right. >> Which is basically the observation that the software that's generated is a reflection of the organization that generated it. You can use Docker or any other container technology to create really crappy software if you want to. >> Bradley: Yep. But one of the things that Docker does introduce is the idea of segmentation, compartmentalization, while at the same time simplified mechanics for how things work together. So talk a little bit about the expectations of people who get into the Docker and container world should have of the network. How should they think about, should they think about their software as essentially distributed elements that then require a network? What's your thoughts on that architecturally? How is it going to play out? >> It really depends on where their journey sits. Once again, I think we are the suppliers of these tools of innovation. But we want to also hold their hand as well through this journey. And that journey is not done day one. It's a step by step process as well. So, a good example is you can start off and build the greatest distributed microservice application and that might work well for certain parts of your company, but there's certainly many, many other applications that are already deployed out there, which it may not fit, at least not today, and there's a journey to take those existing, traditional applications along that journey as well. So, anything that basically requires interaction, with other components, any services that need to talk to each other, to the external world, obviously requires a network. Networking has been a very, very tough thing in the past. They're not always the simplest. Sometimes it could be over complicated. >> Peter: Sometimes? >> (laughs) Many, Many times. >> In all honesty, I do think that the network professionals have gone out of their way to make the network as obscure and abstract as possible. >> Bradley: You know, I think >> John: They're command line guys. Come on. (laughs) >> I've been in the networking world for a long time as well, before joining Docker. So, I see some of that. I think networking guys tend to, and girls, tend to really look at what are all the different things that we can do, all the different little knobs that we can actually tweak to squeeze every little bit of performance, convergence time, things like that, that might work well in some environments but may not others. That's why you needed so much variability, hence all these nerd knobs, so to speak. Docker comes from a very different place. If you look at the mentality of how we drive things, Usability is a very, very key thing for us. We talk about usable security, we talk about simple orchestrator, (mumbles) for example, We forgo the complex to focus on things that are usable. So, networking for us, we wanted to initially look at it and say, networking should be something that's simple and usable and essentially get out of the way of the developer. Developers shouldn't have to think about all these overcomplicated concepts. The network should be able to form its way around what the application needs and that's really what we're thinking about there. >> Peter: Make it simpler and no simpler than it needs to be. >> John: And make it programmable. >> Bradley: And make it programmable as well. Simple and programmable. And when I say programmable, we're not expecting Ops folks to have to learn how to code necessarily. I think if there's the right tools that are available, that should be a natural flow on. >> You have to enable it so that the app developer doesn't have to do all the hard stuff, like configuration management, all the hardware and the operational stuff that the networking guys have done for them. >> Bradley: Right. >> 'Cause they're not Ops guys right? They're Devs. >> That's a really good point because today, there is not really one single tool chain, and coming back to my earlier point, of what we're trying to solve for. There's not really one single tool chain that Ops folks use, and application developers use. They traditionally use different tooling. What we're trying to do is, first to have that common foundation of common tooling that people can converge on. And the second then is, if we provide all the right hooks, so, just enough hooks for the application developer to say, this is what my application looks like and then enough hooks for the operations folks then plug in and say hey, these are my security policies. These should talk to these and these shouldn't talk to these. And once we have the right ingestion points there, we should be able to take that end to end without having to manually ingest all these different after the fact concepts into that development process. It should be a natural flow on. We're not saying the work is done there. There's still a lot of things to do. But I think the first glimpse of what we have there is stunning. Docker, as you may know, has some great tools to define what an application is. Docker Compose, for example, you can see how a multi-service application is laid out. Cisco can actually then, provide plug-ins into that composed (mumbles) and say well, this web tier needs to talk to this application tier, and these are the basic premises of what networking security tools can then plug into to enforce policy. So, we feel that that can be a lot more automated. And we'll work towards that. >> Bradley, thanks so much for coming on the Cube. Really appreciate it. Great to see ya again. And Docker obviously continuing to do great and we'll continue to cover all your events. But my final question for you is, Take a minute to just explain quickly and succinctly for the audience, the Docker Cisco relationship. What is that? I mean, joint partnership? Is it, you guys just hi fivin' each other? You actually writin' code together? Is there a technology partnership? Give some details on the relationship. >> Yeah, sure. It's a strategic partnership, which basically means that it goes beyond just hi fiving each other. There's some of that as well but we believe that any relationship of this size needs to be built on solid attainable things. So, we worked on the Contiv project together, for example. We also worked together on what we call Cisco validated designs for Docker. >> John: Just joint engineering. >> Joint engineering work. We also work on joint marketing and joint go to market motions as well and joint support. So, you can actually call up Cisco for a Docker, Cisco solution that's deployed out there, you can call up Cisco support and they will hold that trouble ticket and if any troubles do arise, they take the call and then work on that on behalf of us. >> It's a nice relationship. It's a win-win. They get some cloud native mojo with Docker and this new app world. You guys get enterprise access to the huge amount of clients that they have. >> Bradley: Exactly. Alright, final, final question, Since one just popped in my head. It always happens that way when you're going to roll. But, what's on the roadmap for you guys with respect to the Cisco and this DevNet Create, obviously is going to their foray into this new world and bring in a new eco system with DevNet their core application, I mean, their core developer community, What's on the Docker roadmap? What can we expect to see that's going to be fruits of the labor? >> I think one of the things that we're definitely going to be focusing quite a lot on is to look at that first step of that journey, which is even taking, not just the microservices, that everyone loves to talk about, but even the traditional applications, those monolithic applications that are already deployed out there running mission critical enterprise workloads on there, We want to take those, together with partnerships, like Cisco, and Dockerize those. And eventually, modernize them and eventually evolve them into microservices. >> Yeah, might get those mission critical apps microservicized if that's a word. (laughs) Bradley Wong, Director of Product Management, Great to see you. Thanks for coming on the Cube. Live coverage at the Cube here at the Cisco's inaugural event. Again, great show. (mumbles) I'm John Furrier with Peter Burris. More analysis and commentary and interviews after this short break. (robotic music) >> Hi, I'm April Mitchell and I'm the Senior Director of Strategy

>> Narrator: From Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE covering DockerCon 2017, brought to you by Docker and support from it's ecosystem partners. (upbeat music) >> Hi, and we're back, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is SilconANGLES production of the Cube, here at DockerCon 2017, Austin, Texas. Happy to have on the program Kiran Kamity, who was CEO of ContainerX which was acquired by Cisco. And you're currently the senior director and head of container products at Cisco. And also joining us is Brad Wong, who is the director of product management at Docker. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us. >> Brad: Thanks for having us. [Kiran] Thank you, Stu. >> So Kiran, talk a little bit about ContainerX, you know, bring us back to, why containers, you know why you help start a company with containers, and when to be acquired by a big company like Cisco. >> Yeah, it was actually late 2014 is when Pradeep and I, my co-founder from ContainerX, we started brainstorming about, you know, what do we do in the space and the fact that the space was growing, and my previous company called RingCube, which has sold to Citrix, where we had actually built a container between 2006 and 2010. So we wanted to build a management platform for containers, and it was in a way there was little bit of an overlap with Docker Datacenter, but we were focusing on mostly tendency aspects of it. Bringing in concepts like viamordi rs into containers et cetera. And we were acquired by Cisco about eight months ago now, and the transition in the last eight months has been fantastic. >> Great, and Brad, you're first time on the cube, so give us your background, what brought you to Docker? >> Yeah, so actually before Docker I was at actually, a veteran of Cisco, interestingly enough. Many different ventures in Cisco, most recently I was actually part of the Insieme Networks team, focusing on the software defined networking, and Application Centric Infrastructure. Obviously I saw a pretty trend in the infrastructure space, that the future of infrastructure is being led by applications and developers. With that I actually got to start digging around with Docker quite a lot, found some good interest, and we started talking, and essentially that's how I ended up at Docker, to look at our partner ecosystem, how we can evolve that. Two years ago now, actually. >> I think two years ago Docker networking was a big discussion point. Cisco's been a partner there, but bring us up to speed if you would, both of you, on where you're engaging, on the engineering side, customer side, and the breadth and depth of what you're doing. >> You're right, two years ago, networking was in quite a different place. We kicked it off with acquiring a company back then called SocketPlane, which helped us really define-- >> Yeah and we know actually, ---- and ----, two alums, actually I know those guys, from the idea to starting the company, to doing acquisition was pretty quick for you and for them. >> Right, and we felt that we really needed to bring on board a good solid networking DNA into the company. We did that, and they helped us define what a successful model would be for networking which is why they came up with things like the container networking model, and live network, which then actually opened the door for our partners to then start creating extensions to that, and be able to ride on top of that to offer more advanced networking technologies like Contiv for example. >> Contiv was actually an open source project that was started within Cisco, even before the container was acquisitioned. Right after the acquisition happened, that team got blended into our team and we realized that there were some really crown jewels in Contiv that we wanted to productize. We've been working with Docker for the last six months now trying to productize that, and we went from alpha to beta to g a. Now Contiv is g a today, and it was announced in a blog post today, and it's actually 100% open-source networking product that Cisco TAC and Cisco advanced services have offered commercial support and services support. It's actually a unique moment, because this is the fist 100% open-source project that Cisco TAC has actually offered commercial support for, so it's a pretty interesting milestone I think. >> I think also with that, we also have it available on Docker store as well. It's actually the first Docker networking plug-in that it's been certified as well. We're pretty also happy to have that on there as well. >> Yeah. >> Anything else for the relationship we want to go in beyond those pieces? >> We also saw that there was a lot of other great synergies between the two companies as well. The first thing we wanted to do was to look at how we can also make it a lot better experience for joint customers to get Docker up and running, Docker Enterprise Edition up and running on infrastructure, specifically on Cisco infrastructure, so Cisco UCS. So we also kicked off a series of activities to test and validate and document how Docker Enterprise Edition can run on Cisco UCS, Nexus platforms, et cetera. We went ahead with that and a couple months later we brought out, jointly, to our Cisco validated designs for Docker Enterprise Edition. One on Cisco UCS infrastructure alone, and the other one jointly with NetApp as well, with the FlexPod Solution. So we're also very very happy with that as well. >> Great. Our community I'm sure knows the CVD's from what they are out there. UCS was originally designed to be the infrastructure for virtualized environments. Can you walk me through, what other significant differences there or anything kind of changing to move to containers versus what UCS for virtualized environment. >> The goal with that, UCS is esentially considered a premium kind of infrastructure server infrastructure for our customers. Not only can they run virtual environments today, but our goal is as containers become mainstreamed, containers evolved to being a first-class citizen alongside VM. We have to provide our customers with a solution that they need. And a turnkey solution from a Cisco standpoint is to take something like a Docker stack, or other stacks that our customer stopped, such as Kubernetes or other stacks as well, and offer them turnkey kind of experience. So with Docker Data Center what we have done is the CVD that we've announced so far has Docker Data Center, and the recipe provides an easy way for customers to get started with USC on Docker Data Center so that they get that turnkey experience. And with the MTA program that was announced, today at the key note. So that allows Cisco and Docker to work even more closely together to have not just the products, but also provide services to ensure that customers can completely sort of get started very very easily with support from advanced services and things like that. >> Great, I'm wondering if you have any customer examples that you can talk through. If you can't talk about a specific, logo, maybe you can talk about. Or if there are key verticals that you see that you're engaging first, or what can you share? >> We've been working joint customer evals, actually a couple of them. Once again I don't think we can point out the names yet. We haven't fully disclosed, or cleared it with their Prs Definitely into financials. Especially the online financials, a significant company that we've been working with jointly that has actually adopted both Contiv, and is actually seeing quite a lot of value in being able to take Docker, and also leverage the networking stack that Contiv provides. And be able to not just orchestrate networking policies for containers, but the other thing that they want to do is to have those same policies be able to run on cloud infrastructure, like EWS for example. So they obviously see that Docker is a great platform to be enable their affordability between on premises and also public cloud. But at the same time be able to leverage these kind of tools that makes that transition, and makes that move a lot easier so they don't have to re-think their security networking policies all over again. That's been actually a pretty used case I thought of the joint work that we did together with Contiv. >> Some of the customers that we've been talking to in fact we have one customer that I don't think I'm supposed say the name just yet, but we've drollled it out, has drolled out Contiv with the Docker on time. In five production data centers already. And these are the kind of customers that actually take to advanced networking capabilites that Contiv offers so that they can comprehensive L2 networking, L3 networking. Their monitoring pools that they currently use will be able to address the containers, because the L2, the L3 networking capabilities allows each container to have an IP address that is externally addressable, so that the current monitoring tools that you use for VMs et cetera can completely stay relevant, and be applicable in the container world. If you have an ACI fabric that continues to work with containers. So those are some of the reasons why these customers seem to like it. >> Kiran, you're relatively new into Cisco, and you were a software company. Many people they still think of Cisco as a networking company. I've heard people derogatory it's like, "Oh they made hardware define networking when they rolled out some of this stuff." Tell us about, you talk about an open source project that you guys are doing. I've talked to Lou Tucker a number of times. I know some of the software things you guys are doing. Give us your viewpoint as to your new employer, and how they might be different than people think of as the Cisco that we've known for decades. >> Cisco is, has of course it has, you know, several billion dollars of revenue coming in from hardware and infrastructure. And networking and security have been the bread and the butter for the company for many many years now But as the world moves to Cloud-Native becoming a first class citizen, the goal is really to provide complete solutions to our customers. And if you think of complete solutions, those solutions include things like networking, thing like security. Including analytics, and complete management platforms. At the same time, at the end of the day, the customers want to come to peace with the fact that this is a multi-cloud world Customers have data centers on premises, or on hosted private cloud environments. They have workloads that are running on public clouds. So with products like cloud center, our goal is to make sure that whatever they, the applications that they have, can be orchestrated across these multiple clouds. We want to make sure that the pain points the customers have around deploying whole solutions include easy set-up of products on infrastructure that they have, and that includes partnerships like UCS, or running on ACI or Nexus. We want to make sure that we give that turnkey experience to these customers. We want to make sure that those workloads can be moved across and run across these different clouds. That's where products like cloud center come in. We want to make sure that these customers have top grade analytics, which is completely software. That's were the app dynamics acquisition comes in. And we want to make sure that we provide that turnkey experience with support in terms of services. With our massive services organization, partners, et cetera. We view this as our job is to provide our customers what they need in terms of the end solution that they're looking for. And so it's not just hardware, it's just a part of it. Software, services, et cetera, complimented. >> Alright, Brad last question that I have for you in the keynote yesterday, I couldn't count how many times the word ecosystem was used. I think it was loud and clear that everybody there I think it was like, you know, Docker will not be successful unless it's partners are successful, kind of vice versa. When you look at kind of the product development piece of things, how does that resonate with you and the job that you're doing? >> We basically are seeing Docker become more of a, more and more of a platform as evidenced by yesterdays keynote. Every platform, the only way that platform's going to be successful is if we can do great, we have great options for our partners, like Cisco, to be able to integrate with us on multiple different levels, not just on one place. The networking plug-in is just one example. Many many other places as well Yesterday we announced two new open source initiatives. Lennox kit and also the movi project. You can imagine that there's probably lots of great places where partners like Cisco can actually play in there, not just only in the service fees, but maybe also in things like IOT as well, which is also a fast-emerging place for us to be. And all the way up until day two type of monitoring, type of environment as well where we think there's a lot of great places where once again, options like app dynamics, tetration analytics can fit in quite nicely with how do you take applications that have been migrated or modernized into containers, and start really tracking those using a common tool set. So we think that's really really good opportunities for our ecosystem partners to really innovate in those spaces, and to differentiate as well. >> Kiran, I want to give you the final word, take-aways that you want the users here, and those out watching the show to know about, you know, Cisco, and the Docker environment. >> I want to let everybody know that Cisco is not just hardware. Our goal is to provide turnkey complete solutions and experiences to our customers. And as they walk through this journey of embracing Cloud-Native workloads, and containerized workload there's various parts of the problem, that include all the way from hardware, to running analytics, to networking, to security, and services help, and Cisco as a company is here to offer that help, and make sure that the customers can walk away with turnkey solutions and experiences. >> Kiran and Brad, thank you so much for joining us. We'll be back with more coverage here. Day two, DockerCon 2017, you're watching theCube.