>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco It's the Cube. Covering DevNet Create 2017. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Welcome back everyone. Live in San Francisco, this is the Cube's exclusive coverage of the inaugural event for Cisco systems DevNet Create. It's an extension or augmentation, a foot in the water of the new open source world for them. Cloud native DevOps infrastructure is code. It's Cisco's new mission, where applications meets infrastructure AKA infrastructure's code which is music to the ears of DevOps and all application developers. I'm John Furrier. My cohost Peter Burris, Head of Research at wikibon.com. Our next guest is Bradley Wong, Director of Product Management at Docker. Bradley welcome to the Cube. Good to see you again. >> Yeah, great, Thanks John. >> Docker, no other company to reference in terms of being a shining star in a paradigm shift or transformation where containers, Docker containers, and now containers and Kubernetes microservices has taken cloud and brought it into a whole nother dimension. We've been covering you guys at all your Dockercon events. It's been gray multiple years. Congratulations for your success. >> Bradley: Thank you. >> You got to be happy that you got Cisco coming out saying hey we're going to make the network programmable. Finally! You know, let's do it. Thoughts? >> Yeah, we're very excited about that. It's kind of interesting because we also found that networking is also one of those things that's quite difficult. And we saw this challenge probably about more than two years ago, after people started to get more comfortable with containers and they wanted to start doing some more interesting things with them and start getting the containers to talk to each other and the rest of the world. That's kind of really where we saw that networking could be improved upon. And I think maybe you remember, probably about two years ago now, maybe more actually, we made an acquisition company called SocketPlane? >> John: Yep. That really helped us define what it means to really do networking properly. And that was actually the genesis of where even the Cisco partnership also started devolving as well, because at Docker we really needed to build out a framework for how to do networking properly internally first. And we always followed a mantra, the mandate of batteries included but swappable. So, we built a reference implementation of what it meant to do networking properly for containers. But, in doing so we also then worked quite closely with Cisco to also bring their many, many years of expertise to the table as well. So, and you can probably see that now with the culmination of projects like Contiv, which is actually now a certified plug-in on Docker store. Cisco's really stepped it up and has really made lots of really great inroads and done a lot of good additions to Docker networking. >> It always seems that way. The conversation, we've been also following a lot of other communities, like OpenStack for instance, there's always debates but it always gets down to ay the network, network. I've had so many customers (mumbles) It's really hard. And also you see Cisco get pulled into conversations just but gravity pulling them in because they're the network guys. So now, it's nice to see that the executives at Cisco, led by Susie Wee and the team and Rick, not just puttin' their toe in the water, they're jumpin' in the deep end here with the cloud native approach by going to developers and outreaching to them in a different way and saying look it, we want to make your life easier. >> Bradley: Absolutely. >> That's what you guys have done. So certainly a success to you guys who are in Cisco, doing the work around the fringes but now that they're coming in, how do you, how would you tell someone, describe that move for Cisco? I mean, obviously Cisco has not been absent. They've been there with you guys. >> Bradley: Yeah. >> What does this really mean for them as they go fully committing here now? Right, that's a good question. Cisco is beyond just a, obviously, a networking company that's kind of' where it's roots came from. But we saw that there was some good opportunities to work with Cisco, not just on networking but a few other things. I think what a lot of people probably get familiar with Docker because it's a great development tool to start. And that's really where people's first interactions with Docker really is. It's really easy to get started, really easy to start building your applications in Docker, and start moving those applications into other environments, like going from Dev into Tes into Prod very, very seamlessly. So, Docker really becomes that sort of what we call a software supply chain that really enable Dev and Ops to use the same tooling, the same tool chain, end to end. And we feel that if we're able to use the same tool chain end to end, from Dev all the way through to Ops, we alleviate a lot of the challenges to deploying applications to production. Now, Cisco so far has been very, very strong in the Ops space, very strong in the infrastructure space, and we also come very, very strongly from the developer space as well. So, I think as we basically build out this software supply chain, there also is a need to make sure that there is this kind of underlying infrastructure that's also ready to run that software supply chain as well and to really harden it. And that's what, one of the first things that we really did with Cisco is to make sure that we have a very clear vision of how to make that operationalizable for the enterprise. >> Second time I've heard the word software supply chain. Peter's also used the word data supply chain. Data is asset (mumbles) software. Software is an asset. It's data as well. What is software supply chain mean? Describe that for a second. Take a minute to explain. >> So yeah, that's a good question. So in any supply chain I think there's sort of a progression of where there's inputs, where things come in and for us, we're on a mission to build tools of mass innovation. So, we really want to start with the developer and that's really where a lot of really good stuff comes from. Everyone's got great ideas and we piece those ideas together, give them the tools that they know how to use really well to develop them. But, it's not just good to have great applications, they need to be usable and they need to be able to be deployed. And what we believe the software supply chain is taking that development process and being able to have developers put their artifacts inside containers and then move those, because that's really what it is, it's actually moving those artifacts into places where they can be shared with greater teams to start testings those and to start iterating on those. And ultimately to move those into production whether it's on premise or whether it's in the cloud. And that's what we believe that we enable, is that movement of, and that >> John: Coding motion. >> Exactly. Exactly. And that doesn't stop there because, as you know, code is not stable. There's always iterative process and we enable that as well. So then , as we find issues or enhancements that we want to fix in production, we move that back to developer and that whole process starts again. Be able to do that really, really, quickly is what we want to do. >> So let's stay in that metaphor for a second. If we think about this as a software supply chain, Does that make Cisco a logistics supplier? >> I would say, with any supply chain, Cisco, once again, has lot's of different areas that they're focusing in and by no means am I speaking on behalf of Cisco where >> Peter: I understand. Just conceptually, are they the Ryder trucking, are they the ones responsible for moving things around? >> Yes, that's one of the places that Cisco does play very, very strongly in. For example, we identified that the computer platform that Cisco has, the UCS platform, is a great place to actually run Docker in production, especially on premise. And that's definitely one of the things that we needed to start validating, all these different infrastructures, that can actually have the right availability, the right performance characteristics, and things that then we can do together to make sure that these are essentially solid infrastructures to actually run these production environments on. Now, Cisco's been running solid enterprise infrastructure for many, many years. Docker's been running Dockerize applications also for many years as well. The marriage of the two, we hope and we believe that will culminate in a lot of the enterprises, which were very accountable at running enterprise applications on top of enterprise infrastructure, to now run Docker applications on enterprise infrastructure as well. So, just making sure that there is very, very good infrastructure that's in place to actually host that supply chain, I think that's definitely one of the key areas that we are hoping to get out of this partnership with Cisco. >> So now that we've talked about here in the last couple days (mumbles) is Conway's Law. And I'm sure you're familiar with Conway's Law. >> Bradley: Right. >> Which is basically the observation that the software that's generated is a reflection of the organization that generated it. You can use Docker or any other container technology to create really crappy software if you want to. >> Bradley: Yep. But one of the things that Docker does introduce is the idea of segmentation, compartmentalization, while at the same time simplified mechanics for how things work together. So talk a little bit about the expectations of people who get into the Docker and container world should have of the network. How should they think about, should they think about their software as essentially distributed elements that then require a network? What's your thoughts on that architecturally? How is it going to play out? >> It really depends on where their journey sits. Once again, I think we are the suppliers of these tools of innovation. But we want to also hold their hand as well through this journey. And that journey is not done day one. It's a step by step process as well. So, a good example is you can start off and build the greatest distributed microservice application and that might work well for certain parts of your company, but there's certainly many, many other applications that are already deployed out there, which it may not fit, at least not today, and there's a journey to take those existing, traditional applications along that journey as well. So, anything that basically requires interaction, with other components, any services that need to talk to each other, to the external world, obviously requires a network. Networking has been a very, very tough thing in the past. They're not always the simplest. Sometimes it could be over complicated. >> Peter: Sometimes? >> (laughs) Many, Many times. >> In all honesty, I do think that the network professionals have gone out of their way to make the network as obscure and abstract as possible. >> Bradley: You know, I think >> John: They're command line guys. Come on. (laughs) >> I've been in the networking world for a long time as well, before joining Docker. So, I see some of that. I think networking guys tend to, and girls, tend to really look at what are all the different things that we can do, all the different little knobs that we can actually tweak to squeeze every little bit of performance, convergence time, things like that, that might work well in some environments but may not others. That's why you needed so much variability, hence all these nerd knobs, so to speak. Docker comes from a very different place. If you look at the mentality of how we drive things, Usability is a very, very key thing for us. We talk about usable security, we talk about simple orchestrator, (mumbles) for example, We forgo the complex to focus on things that are usable. So, networking for us, we wanted to initially look at it and say, networking should be something that's simple and usable and essentially get out of the way of the developer. Developers shouldn't have to think about all these overcomplicated concepts. The network should be able to form its way around what the application needs and that's really what we're thinking about there. >> Peter: Make it simpler and no simpler than it needs to be. >> John: And make it programmable. >> Bradley: And make it programmable as well. Simple and programmable. And when I say programmable, we're not expecting Ops folks to have to learn how to code necessarily. I think if there's the right tools that are available, that should be a natural flow on. >> You have to enable it so that the app developer doesn't have to do all the hard stuff, like configuration management, all the hardware and the operational stuff that the networking guys have done for them. >> Bradley: Right. >> 'Cause they're not Ops guys right? They're Devs. >> That's a really good point because today, there is not really one single tool chain, and coming back to my earlier point, of what we're trying to solve for. There's not really one single tool chain that Ops folks use, and application developers use. They traditionally use different tooling. What we're trying to do is, first to have that common foundation of common tooling that people can converge on. And the second then is, if we provide all the right hooks, so, just enough hooks for the application developer to say, this is what my application looks like and then enough hooks for the operations folks then plug in and say hey, these are my security policies. These should talk to these and these shouldn't talk to these. And once we have the right ingestion points there, we should be able to take that end to end without having to manually ingest all these different after the fact concepts into that development process. It should be a natural flow on. We're not saying the work is done there. There's still a lot of things to do. But I think the first glimpse of what we have there is stunning. Docker, as you may know, has some great tools to define what an application is. Docker Compose, for example, you can see how a multi-service application is laid out. Cisco can actually then, provide plug-ins into that composed (mumbles) and say well, this web tier needs to talk to this application tier, and these are the basic premises of what networking security tools can then plug into to enforce policy. So, we feel that that can be a lot more automated. And we'll work towards that. >> Bradley, thanks so much for coming on the Cube. Really appreciate it. Great to see ya again. And Docker obviously continuing to do great and we'll continue to cover all your events. But my final question for you is, Take a minute to just explain quickly and succinctly for the audience, the Docker Cisco relationship. What is that? I mean, joint partnership? Is it, you guys just hi fivin' each other? You actually writin' code together? Is there a technology partnership? Give some details on the relationship. >> Yeah, sure. It's a strategic partnership, which basically means that it goes beyond just hi fiving each other. There's some of that as well but we believe that any relationship of this size needs to be built on solid attainable things. So, we worked on the Contiv project together, for example. We also worked together on what we call Cisco validated designs for Docker. >> John: Just joint engineering. >> Joint engineering work. We also work on joint marketing and joint go to market motions as well and joint support. So, you can actually call up Cisco for a Docker, Cisco solution that's deployed out there, you can call up Cisco support and they will hold that trouble ticket and if any troubles do arise, they take the call and then work on that on behalf of us. >> It's a nice relationship. It's a win-win. They get some cloud native mojo with Docker and this new app world. You guys get enterprise access to the huge amount of clients that they have. >> Bradley: Exactly. Alright, final, final question, Since one just popped in my head. It always happens that way when you're going to roll. But, what's on the roadmap for you guys with respect to the Cisco and this DevNet Create, obviously is going to their foray into this new world and bring in a new eco system with DevNet their core application, I mean, their core developer community, What's on the Docker roadmap? What can we expect to see that's going to be fruits of the labor? >> I think one of the things that we're definitely going to be focusing quite a lot on is to look at that first step of that journey, which is even taking, not just the microservices, that everyone loves to talk about, but even the traditional applications, those monolithic applications that are already deployed out there running mission critical enterprise workloads on there, We want to take those, together with partnerships, like Cisco, and Dockerize those. And eventually, modernize them and eventually evolve them into microservices. >> Yeah, might get those mission critical apps microservicized if that's a word. (laughs) Bradley Wong, Director of Product Management, Great to see you. Thanks for coming on the Cube. Live coverage at the Cube here at the Cisco's inaugural event. Again, great show. (mumbles) I'm John Furrier with Peter Burris. More analysis and commentary and interviews after this short break. (robotic music) >> Hi, I'm April Mitchell and I'm the Senior Director of Strategy

>> Narrator: From Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE. Covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker and support from it's ecosystem partners. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman joining with my co-host Jim Kobielus. We're here with theCUBE at DockerCon 2017. When I talked to John Furrier, he said Stu, at DockerCon, we're going to get Solomon Hykes, the founder. We're going to get Ben Golub, the CEO. And we're also, of course, going to get Marianna Tessle, who is the EVP of Strategic Development. Marianna, thank you for having us back again, we've been having a great event. How is everything with you? >> Thank you first of all, it's great. This is the second day of DockerCon. I think we had a great set of announcement yesterday, and an amazing set of announcement today as well. It's really going great. You know I have been roaming the exhibit hall, and actually a couple of people said this is one of the best shows they have been part of, and this very engaged audience is great to hear. >> From the keynote yesterday, the word that stuck out to me is really scaling. We talk about scaling employment, scaling the ecosystem, and the show itself. I was at that first DockerCon when we were wedged into that hotel room, as Ben joked. We had 100 more people than we told the Fire Marshall. Because it was tight. TheCUBE is usually a little bit smaller footprint than we have at some other shows. But, Austin, first of all, you pick great locations. I mean, San Francisco, Seattle, here. I'm looking forward to... Have we announced yet where next year's is? >> I don't think we've announced it yet. Usually it happens in the afternoon. >> Here in Austin. Talk to us a little about some of those announcements and stuff that you're excited about with growing the ecosystem. >> You know, I'm going to continue the theme you started with scale, and obviously like you said, a lot of things are changing, and scaling. One of the things we have noticed more and more are companies and enterprises have really started to use us more in scale and more in production, more apps, more of that going on. One of the trends we've noticed that actually Ben covered on stage today is that there's not just the leading edge of development and all new apps, web apps, but actually, we are starting to see more of traditional apps coming on board as well. More traditions Ops saying, I want those benefits as well. I do not want to go all the way to the extreme of re-writing my code, and going to microservices. But I can reap a lot of the benefits from Docker rising and putting our tools on top. So we're actually seeing more and more of that. And more and more companies. >> The discussion with Solomon, we talked this morning. He said, Oh, I don't know what Lego set we are. And I said, You know that green, flat piece that you can build everything on top of, so you can have your spaceset, your castle, and all the pieces there. You want to be a platform that can build. One of the announcements you guys had today, it's the modernized traditional applications. Maybe you can walk us through a little bit what that means, you know that mix of microservices verses traditional apps. How you guys see yourself participating in a customer's journey. >> Right. So, when we call this program, by the way it has a nickname, MTA. It's like you said, what we've seen is customers and users that want to have benefit across the board was if they write new code as they have more traditional apps with traditional stacks. What we came up with is a way for you to move from a more traditional to the new and Dockerizing really quickly. One of the things we also announced today, is a go-to market and a program helping customers to do that. We have great partners we announced today and I'm sure we're going to have even more, whether it's Microsoft, Avalon, HPE, and Cisco. What we're going to basically provide is a way for you to very quickly start seeing the benefits. Taking the traditional app, and within days, like five days, you should be able to get it in a modern state and start seeing the benefits from that. It's something that we're going to encourage customers to do very quickly and see the benefits. In fact, we had a customer today, Noran Trust, who's already been doing that, talking about the benefits they've been seeing from this program. >> Marianna, in terms of developer enablement, that's everything to getting Dockerizing, a universal phenomenon for wrapping legacy systems, for refactoring existing code, for building greenfield applications. What will Docker do to continue to improve the experience of Project Moby as an enabler of your ISV ecosystem? Going forward, how do you see the experience of front-end in front of Moby evolving to enable very simplicity and speed of development? >> First of all, I have to say that one of the magic, or secret sauces of Docker is our user experience, and the way we made technologies sometimes that were already available super accessible and super useful for developers and ops and users. So I would say that's definitely something that we have the DNA to do. And a project in Moby, we see ISV's and companies, and it doesn't have to be a company, it could be like users, a company that can come in and collaborate and really create a new component, or a new project from what we're going to put there, and hopefully others as well is a whole set of these Lego building blocks they can assemble. >> Are there any plans of Dockers to provide task-oriented skins or experiences on Moby for different roles, different developer roles associated with particular projects, you know, task, or wrapping a legacy system is a different task, obviously, from developing a greenfield containerized application. So to an extend, will you evolve the tool to enable more task oriented role specific interfaces? >> I would say as far as Moby, and across the company, we do have this realization that it could be that developers started to use Docker first, but actually Ops, and even like we talked about, traditional IT, it's pretty prevalent. So our thought is really to cater to all of these audiences, kind of understand, have a conversation with them and understand what exactly they need and what would make them more productive. An example of what I mentioned with the MTA program, the Modernized Traditional Apps, that one is targeted more towards an Ops audience. Different things we do, we try to understand our audience and engage with them, and see what's going to make them most productive. Both in terms of tool sets and in terms of how we bring it to them. >> Right, right. >> Marianna, we had the opportunity to have some of the partner keynote speakers on theCUBE, John Gossman on from Microsoft yesterday, we had Mark Cavage on from Oracle, here. There's a lot going on. Maybe give our audience a little flavor as to some of the other partner activity going on that we might have missed if we weren't watching close. >> I think we had the same conversation last year, just explaining how important it is for us that we work well with our ecosystem. It's a big part of our plan and strategy, and again confirmation that customers want to use choice, different things, that we're not alone in the world, and we really want to engage with a vast ecosystem. So you saw from Cloud providers to a more on-prem infrastructure to ISV's to networking providers, storage providers. Like a whole understanding and way to be a full platform, we really need to understand how to integrate and how to engage with that ecosystem, and how to help customers have benefits of the entire thing combined. So we've been really looking at who are the different leaders; Sometimes customers take us there, they're like, hey please partner with this company or that company. Understanding mapping of what is needed, and starting from Cloud, infrastructure, network, storage, management, monitoring, security, all the way to ISV's. I would, since you brought up that fact that Mark was here, Mark from Oracle. I do want to talk about that because I think that is maybe even a bit new and unique. Another thing that we announced today, the fact that we have Oracle, Dockerizing their apps and putting them in Docker store and that is big, and again, to us that is obviously big, but again, big for user. It's a very easy way to get software you really need. And not only that, we announced several weeks ago, a certification program. The nice thing about that, if something is certified in store, you can really use that with a lot of trust. You know it's been tested, it's secure. That we made sure that it followed best practices. We made sure that our support engagement with the publisher. Again, geared toward enterprises that really want to have that confidence of downloading something from the store and just using it. Again, Oracle is kind of groundbreaking in putting their software there, and we're very excited about that and we think there is going to be more to come. We really are looking forward to this being an amazing service for our users who want to really start from components that exist and the components that they can trust and be productive very quickly. >> I'm curious, how do you think of the Docker store in relation to things like the Amazon Marketplace, or you know, many of your other partners have their own piece. There really is no kind of enterprise app store today so what do you guys want to own? How do you integrate with partners as you look at that develop over time? >> For us, Docker Store started as an enabler as we saw more and more need from users to to basically, Hey, I want.. Let's say since I talked about Oracle I want to use a database. I don't want to go and Dockerize it again. If somebody already did it and they're already prepared, they already went through it, why wouldn't I just re-use it? So the fact that you can put things in this building block and then move them around, it actually enables the idea that you can re-use the same component between different users. So basically you have here something you can do once, and many people can benefit. So that's the benefit we see. It started with official images long ago. We saw unbelievable traction for it. Users really love it, it makes them productive very quickly. We wanted to expand it to a wider set of ISV's, a wider set of components, a wider set of apps, and make them available. We, right now, see it as more of an enabler and again it's one of those things, listening to our users, listening to our customers, we saw that that's one of the things that will make them productive really quickly. >> One of the things we saw in abundance at DockerCon this year is customers of Visa, MetLife, and so forth, up on stage, talking about how they are using Docker in their business for actual live applications. In terms of partners, are you focusing on particular vertical industries in terms of partnership with ISV's and VAR's, particular geographies? Give us a sense for where you're going in terms of diversification of geographies and industries, and in terms of your focus on partnerships. >> Yeah, and again different parts of the stack require different kinds of partnerships. Like on the South end of the stack on the infrastructure, we're looking for partners that either provide on-prem or Cloud infrastructure, or they can provide a set of plug-ins that integrate with us and a set of tools that can be used with Docker to complete and enhance the overall experience of users using Docker. So that's kind of one set of partnerships that started from hardware vendors, to different plug-ins. On the North side of it as we look at it, we just talked about the fact that we have... >> Jim: Top of the application, the application services end of the staff is the North, right? >> Exactly, and all the way to the content. What you actually put inside and what you run. >> Data, so forth and so on. >> Exactly. We'll form a set of partnerships there and making sure that those components are available in store, those components are Dockerized, that companies can really use that, and obviously Microsoft is a huge partner for us in the OS and as your others as well. >> The storage vendors, like Veritask and so forth, there is a fair amount of data inside the ecosystem that really you're going to continue to develop a partnership. >> Absolutely, Adera, Quadera, you've seen a lot, and we continue partner and seeing what's needed there. Understanding we are trying to predict where customers are today, where they're going to maybe, what they will need a year or two from now, and be ready for that. >> Marianna, that leads me to my final question. We know where you're going to be in Europe, you won't tell us yet the location of the North American show for next year, but as you look at the ecosystem, how do you see that developing? When we sit down with you a year from now, what do you hope to have as the progress? >> As I look at the exhibit hall, I am hoping that we're going to see a bigger exhibit hall with every single DockerCon. And, not just for fun, but really, it kind of indicates the collaboration we have with the ecosystem. I would like us to be known as a trusted and productive partner for our ecosystem. And a trusted and productive partner for our customer. That kind of knows to work together with all these contingencies to have amazing results. Like you said, we seen customers on stage, we seen the press releases of people say it took me months to get VM going, it takes me seconds to get this now going. So you see the kind of productivity and we would like to enhance it even more and get there faster. >> Absolutely, Marianna, always a pleasure to catch up with you. We've got a few more interviews left, two days of live coverage, for Jim Kobielus, and I'm Stu Miniman. Thanks for watching theCUBE. 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