(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From New York, it's theCUBE. Covering Escape/19. (upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back to theCUBE coverage in New York City for the inaugural multicloud conference called Escape/19. We're in New York City. Escape from New York City, escape from your cloud, multicloud is the reality. Armad Dadgar, he's here, the CTO Co-founder of HashiCorp, Cube Alumni, great to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, great to see you. Thanks for having me back. >> So first of all, I just got to say congratulations on all your success, you guys have been doing extremely well as a business and you guys started out with a very pure mission, continues to be. You're getting some validation, market-place is spinning in your direction. You couldn't ask for kind of a better scenario. Kept doing it so congratulations. >> Thank you so much, it's been fun. >> So you guys are at the pinnacle of the confluence of automation meets you know, what developers care about. Just standing stuff up and getting stuff done. Infrastructure as code has been the ethos of cloud, dev-ops. Now we're on the horizon here at a cloud that's billing itself as the inaugural multicloud show. People have multiple clouds but they're not multiclouding so there's still a lot more work. But the best minds are here having conversations around, "What does that picture looks like? "What can we do foundationally? "What best practices and things you double-down on?" What's your take on all this? >> You know I think it's funny 'cause I think if you had this exact same conference three or four years ago everyone's take would have been like, "What multicloud?" Right? Like everyone's like, "Multicloud's not real, "it's only Amazon et cetera." And so it's funny now to actually be at a multicloud conference where's it's like nobody even questions the premise. Everyone's like, "Yeah, obviously we're going to be multicloud". Right? And I think what's happened is that you've seen maturity of the public clouds. So it's no longer just Amazon, there's multiple credible clouds. And I think the other piece of it is larger organizations are realizing multicloud's inevitable. You might say, "I'm going to go all-in on, "you know, cloud A, and then I buy a company that's cloud B, now I'm multicloud." And so I think the pragmatic reality for the kind of global 10,000 is you're going to be a mutlicloud company whether you want to or whether you don't. >> It's like multi-vendor in the old days. When I was growing up in the mini-computer networking days, you had multiple vendors. That's not a bad thing. >> Yeah. >> Just got to create some abstractions. I want to get your take on the work environment that's out there. You guys have been very successful, providing great tools, open-source and commercial for developers to stand stuff up and do their work. To operationalize multicloud, which is inevitable. >> Yep. >> How do you see that vision? I mean obviously, common workflows and workstreams but if I'm an IT guy or I'm a VP of IT or CSO or whatever, I got money. I don't want to fork my developer teams. I want my guys being productive, I'd love to have my own stacks on premises. I'd love to push APIs out to my vendors and say, "That's how we work together." So a modern thinking is going on. >> Right. >> How do you look at the operationalizing that next level? >> So, you know, what I just spoke about is sort of like when we talk about multicloud I think there's kind of four definitions of it. One is the notion of data portability. Which is, you know, perfect fit for database technology like Cockroach, right? The notion of I'm going to have data that exists in multiple clouds at the same time. Then you have the notion of workflow portability, right? Which is exactly I think what you're talking about. Which is, "Hey, if I'm a developer "building an app I don't care, "is it going to land on Amazon, "is it going to land on-premise, "is it going to go to Google? "I want one workflow. "For how do I do my, you know CICD? "How do I do my testing? "How do I do the deployment? "How do I monitor it, right? "what are the workflows in terms of delivery?" Because to your point if I'm the CIO, I don't want to invest in four different workflows, right? I want to train my team on one. I want to have a common way of delivering it. And that's a developer efficiency. I think there's the sort of Shangri-la of multicloud which is this idea of like workload migration. I'm going to push a button and move it from cloud-A to cloud-B. And I think for most organizations that's, you know very hard to architect for. It requires so much discipline. And I'm not sure it's actually practical for most organizations. 'Cause it means that's you can't really use any of the cloud's high value services. It means that you have to really architect everything for data portability, everything for workflow portability. And so I think what's reasonable is kind of exactly what you said, which is like-- >> Well the Shangri-La example is a good one. I mean, throw in SLAs on latency. I mean, you can't even get network latency is just so all over the map. So SLAs are, just, that's almost impossible. >> Yeah. It's-- >> At this point. So the low-hanging fruit is ultimately is data portability and workflows. >> Yeah. >> And preserving the developer focus. So what is your take on, I'd love to get your expert opinion on this, because people are investing in developers. And it's that there are people who are doing it well and some are not doing it very well. Meaning they've been relying on outsourced vendors. You know, this company's been providing all my dev. And we've been lean and mean. We got dashboard, we're pushing, provisioning servers. And I got the cloud, I got Amazon dashboard. But now, I can't really, crank anything craft out there. I need real developers. So you got great and poor. >> Right. >> What's the success point for having a good strong, enterprise developers? >> So you know I think what's interesting is those companies you're talking about that you're sort of used to outsourcing everything. For them, they never thought about software dev as a core competency, right? It's like "Oh I'm, you know, I'm a media company," Or, "I'm a retailer." It's not like competency. I'm just going to outsource to HP, IBM, whoever to do my dev work. And I think what's changing is as you think about dev ops as sort of this new digital economy it's that, no, the application is my value, right? Like, yes, maybe the product I end up delivering to you is a razor blade but my value is in the digital experience, the engagement. So I think your core competency has to become software development. And I think that that's that big shift, right? It's a bit of a top-down shift in terms of how do you think about the development group? And then I think from there it's bootstrapping a culture. It's bootstrapping sort of those core engineering teams. Like, to your point the kind of cloud-native practitioners. I think you have to foster that, sort of internal culture and community. But it's also a top-down investment. That's never going to work in a bottoms-up way if you don't foster the top-down investment and say, Actually, I'm going to think about this team as a revenue driver and not a cost center. >> It's interesting, I was just doing an exercise on the flight out from California here to the east coast. And I was look at all the different players that we cover. We cover, you know hundreds and hundreds of companies. And I was trying to put them in buckets. And then I was like,cloud-native, this is clearly the cloud-native bucket. People in the cloud-native, it's like we know who they are. Then I'm like, okay, enterprise, data center, no, hybrid, oh yeah, hybrid. Well are they hybrid? Hybrid IT? No, no, hybrid developer? So, I was just like trying to shoehorn in, like. So hybrid certainly is there. But hybrid IT is kind of losing favor on my list. It became hybrid developers. Meaning that IT wasn't like, categorically relevant in just how they were organizing. >> Right. >> They were either doing hybrid with developers, and then you had pure cloud-native which is just scale. >> Right. >> So those two worlds are coming together on the data. >> Right. >> Your reaction to that. >> Yeah, I mean that, to your point, that you can think about the sort of, the architecture, the application architecture I think as being distinct from the IT practices. Right, and think to your point you can live in this sort of weird world where you might have a cloud-native architecture but sort of a traditional IT practice. and I think maybe that that's what sort of a hybrid IT might look like. So I think that ultimately people want to migrate away from that into more of sort of a truly cloud-native dev ops sort of mentality. >> Well I think that one of the insights that's happening real-time with this conversation is that, if software is your core competency, then inherently IT is subsumed into it. Because in dev ops they are the IT. >> Right. >> Right, so. >> Right. You better be really good at it. Yeah, exactly, yeah. >> Yeah, so every company I mean I think ultimately that's the pivot in my mind is that if you're not going software digital then you might not make it. >> Yeah. >> Ultimately, because someone else will. >> Right, exactly. >> All right, talk about your success in HachiCorp. What's been the magic formula for you guys? If you had to look at. I know it's hard, and sometimes you get lucky. You guys have made your own breaks. You have a good philosophy, a good culture. But you had some tailwinds, you had some good, good trends at your back helping you. What's the big success formula for you guys? >> You know I think there's two big ones, right? I think that two is sort of bigger trends that we're sort of riding is that one is this notion of cloud-adoption. Right, like, you know, that's huge. The other one is this sort of app modernization of how do I go from traditional, ticket-driven process of delivering an app into dev ops, self-service agile delivery? And so I think that sort of modernization of the process is just as important as the modernization of the architecture from on-premise to cloud. Right, so I think that we're kind of riding both of those. And I think what's been really important for HashiCorp is sort of an ethos that I think has helped us, is this notion that we care a lot more about workflow than we care about the technology, right? 'Cause what's crazy to me is we're a small, you know, we're still a start-up, right? And so in the last six, seven years of our life if you look at 2012 and say, hey, what's changed from a technology standpoint since then? I'd say everything. 2012, you had one cloud, you didn't have Docker, you didn't have Containers, you didn't have Kubernetes, you didn't have serverless, you didn't have infrastructure as code, right? So, there's just sea-change after sea-change in terms of technology. But what hasn't changed is core workflow. And I think for us that investing was, hey, we're going to be a workflow-oriented company and those things don't change. Where if we say, "I'm going to be the best shop at delivering Java." And then Docker shows up. You know that's an existential threat to your business. >> Exactly. And I think that one of the things that we as a tech industry get into is speeds and feeds, the shiny new toy. And I think that's a great success formula. In fact I was just having a conversation with another technologist this past week. And we were talking about all the cool stuff's going on. He goes, John, John, forget about the workflow as one thing, as underpinning. There's things going on. That's automation there's some goodness there. He goes "But up the stack, machine learning, AI," "Forget all that, it's just the work load." So if you think about just work load and workflow. >> Right. >> Everything else should just fall into place. >> Exactly. >> And that's where the cloud, 2.0 is modernization is going. >> Right, so I think that the companies you've seen succeed are either, to your point, they're a new type of work load that exists in the cloud as a manage service. It's Confluent, it's Spark, right? It Cockroach that I can go consume as a service. Or you have the workflow vendors who have said, great, I'm going to give you a common, multi-cloud dev ops way of consuming that and deploying that workload out there. And I think those are sort of the two patterns that work. >> It's so exciting, this new wave, it's great. And it's just the beginning, ehrtr multi-cloud here. I got to get your take while you're here on cloud 2.0. It's something that I've been kicking around inside theCUBE team as a goof on Web 2.0. 'Cause Web 2.0 was a big goof, "Oh it's Web 2.0." And it caused a lot of fun. Cloud 1.0, if we just say is Amazon, compute, storage, not so much networking, but large scale born in the cloud goodness. Great. But now the reality of the enterprise and hybrid, things are emerging. Observability is important. Automation's important, workflows. How would you define cloud 2.0? What's the, if you had to take a stab at that kind of architectural definition. Where there's new subsystems emerging that are important. Like observability is just network management, but it's super important. >> Right. >> Automation, configuration management, but it's now automated. Those are now little white spaces that have become very important. >> Right. >> Where do you see the building blocks of cloud 2.0? >> So I think with cloud 1.0, I think it was characterized largely by like a lift and shift. Right, you said, okay, I can kind of see how it looks similar to my on-prem. I'm just going to lift and shift the same thing. Versus cloud 2.0 I think the phrase we like to use is it's multi-everything. Right, you're multi-cloud, right, it's multiple public cloud and on-prem. It's multi-platform. It's not just lift and shift of VM. It's great I have my VM-based workload, but I have my container, I have my Kubernetes, I have my serverless. So I have a ton of different platforms that I'm consuming. And it's also multi-service. Right, we talk about micro-service sort of patterns that's not just take my monolithic Java and move it to the cloud, it's decompose that one app into 50 services. Some are Container, some are serverless, some are VM. And mixing and matching all of that. So I think that 2.0 world is much more sort of dynamic. Much more sort of a diverse set of technologies that you're using. But to your point that brings in a bunch of enterprise reality of it's not managing one simple app anymore. There's a ton of complexity in managing the multi-cloud multi-platform nature of it. So I think there's a lot more investment in sort of management tooling and process to actually make that sort of sane. >> Well what's next for you guys? You guys are doing some great work, again, congratulations. HashiCorp has really earned great reputation, great user base, great following. People sing praises about your tools and software. What's next? What's it conquering next? >> I think you know, there's two things we recently announced. One was our sort of Terraform cloud service which was, Hey how do we take Terraform from just desktop tool? make it sort of a cloud experience where you can collaborate on it as a service. Sort of use APIs to hook it into your other systems. And similarly we announced a partnership with Microsoft on a console and Azure service. Right, so I think we're starting looking at that and saying really how do we kind of, you know. I think the irony of HashiCorp is, we're a cloud infrastructure company, but we sell desktop software. Right, like there's an obvious disconnect there. So I think how do we, sort of right that? And sort of say, okay, really people want to consume this stuff as a service. How do we meet them where they are? >> Offer both options. >> Exactly. >> Well, Armon, thanks a lot for coming on sharing. I know your super valuable time, coming on, appreciate it. >> Thanks so much. >> Good seeing you. HashiCorp here in theCUBE conversation, talking about what's going on in this dynamic world of modern infrastructure, modern software, where software's a core competence and multi-cloud reality's coming. CUBE covering is here, I'm John Furrier thanks for watching.