>> Live from Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE covering Microsoft Ignite. Brought to you by Cohesity and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone, to theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my cohost, Stu Miniman. We're joined by Patrick O'Reilly of O'Reilly Venture Partners based in San Francisco. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, Patrick. >> Thanks for having me. >> So, you are a serial entrepreneur now working as a VC, what are you doing here? Tell us why you came to Ignite. >> Yeah, well selfishly on the VC side we have a few of our portfolio companies here that have booths, and I wanted to kind of hear what people are asking, you know, why they're interested in the companies and how we're framing, you know, those companies to the end users. I think these type of events are really good to unlock hidden potential, or things that people can tell you that you wouldn't actually have thought about, yeah. >> Yeah, so Patrick, you know, I've known you for a number of years. Usually see you at the opensource shows. Microsoft, you know, publicly very embracing opensource. You know, they love Linux, partnering with Red Hat, even you know, partnering is a lot of things that Microsoft does. They were working with VMware. What's your viewpoint as to how you see Microsoft and the opensource world, and how about this ecosystem? Is this a vibrant ecosystem that, you know, VCs are investing in, or is it just that there's companies of yours that, you know, this is part of the story. >> No, and I think historically we've had the, you know, build versus buy, you know, kind of way of looking at it, but when I typically think of Microsoft, it's more people building glue, you know, code to kind of connect things together, and you tend to have blinders on and not think about what opensource components you can use. You know, you look for like what company has a solution you can buy, or license or OEM, and I think that's changing, you know, over time. You know, Microsoft does an amazing job with developers of giving them very easy to understand languages and amazing tooling, and along with that the documentation and the training, so I kind of felt like you came into development one of two ways. You either were like on the Microsoft track and using the cookie cutter approach, you know, to doing things and getting certified on something, or you were opensource, you learned the scripting language and you just looked at what you can cobble together in the opensource world, and there wasn't a lot of crosspollination, but now I see that those walls kind of dissolving. People are willing to mix and match. >> Yeah, it's interesting, you know, some places I've seen Microsoft, a lot in the Kubernetes show, so you know, first got to know you you were at Kismetic, you know, really the first company around Kubernetes that we knew. You know, I know you're doing a lot of different things but we love your viewpoint on, you know, anything on Microsoft in that space, as well as just what you've seen, you know, as a watcher of the Kubernetes space these days. >> Yeah, I mean I've been... You know, if I step back from Kubernetes, you know, back to like the Apache Mesos and the Mesosphere days, you know, if you rewind all the way back there you kind of had to do a lot of education of like, "What do you mean 'containerization?' "I have VMs, why do I need containers?" And now that we've gotten past that and people actually understand the value of containers, like having an orchestration system in place that works and works with everything, you know, is obviously more important than ever, and it's... I really credit the CNCF and the Linux Foundation for what they've done to kind of bring standards around Kubernetes and shepherd the project, and I think that, you know, the fairly recent announcement from Google that they're fully trusting, you know, CNCF to be the shepherd of that is huge, and it gives a framework for people, like Gabe at Microsoft, to work with, you know, some of the staff at Google, and like, in a collaborative way and move it forward for everyone, and I think, you know, historically containers made a ton of sense on Linux, but now that we have Windows server, you know, supporting containers and theCUBE working, you know, on Windows, I think in the 111... Or sorry, 113 release we'll have full Windows server, you know, support in Kubernetes, like that'll be huge. And just a quick aside, like the reason I even kind of honed in on containers and thought it was interesting is the average server utilization is still so low, but we're not really trained as technologists to care about that, and you know, we're really good at building data centers and tucking them off in places where no one sees, but when the average server's taking like... It's like running a hairdryer on high, you know, for electricity and then they run so hot you have to cool it. Like, we're really not helping the environment, so I think if we can move towards containerization, move towards efficient utilization of our hardware, you know, it'll be better for everyone, not just this ecosystem, so... >> So, talk to, tell our viewers a little bit about your portfolios and your portfolio companies that are here, and how they fit into the ecosystem. >> Yeah, so the one I'm most excited about, or shouldn't probably say it that way, I'll reframe that-- >> Can't have favorites, they're all your babies. (laughs) >> Yeah, they're all my babies. (laughs) >> But Ziften Technologies is great. I think their integration with the Windows, the vendor ATP, you know, advanced threat protection, you know, tool is great. They focus on the Mac and the Linux components and give you that same kind of pane of glass on the Microsoft side to see those endpoints, and like their utilization of AI, like they have an upcoming release where they're using AI to do things, and traditionally in that space it's been like the AB vendors, you know, doing everything and you had kind of, "Here's our signatures, "we're going to scan against those signatures," and it's a creative use of AI now to, like, look for just anomaly detections. These are the things we haven't seen before. Not sure what it is but it looks abnormal, and those are the kind of like spin-outs of companies that I'm looking for, too. Like I want to see people doing more meaningful things, you know, with AI. I think if we look at Azure and what they're offering now, like I don't need to have a bunch of data scientists at my startup. I can implement computer vision just using what off-the-shelf components, you know, from Microsoft and you know, Azure. I can do video indexing, you know, using their services. Like, if I rewind just back three years I would've had to have a team of like four data scientists. They'd be reading whitepapers, they'd be implementing code that like sort of half works, and they would probably take half a year to train some models to get, like, moderate results, and now in a matter of minutes, you know, I can use this off-the-shelf stuff. >> Yeah, it's fascinating, I think back to, you know, we were pretty early at theCUBE at watching the whole big data trend, and back then it was like, "Okay, we're going to "take that two-year project and you know, "drive it down to six months," and now we talk in the AI space is, you know, how can we drive that down even more. In big data there was concern, everything seemed to be custom. In AI we're starting to get to more templatized solutions, rolling out for a lot of industries, and it feels like it's taking off a lot faster than that space is, and I know there's a lot of investment going on in the space, and a lot there, so... Anything in particular, you know, what excites you, what makes a good, you know, AI investment versus, you know, there's just so much happening out there. >> Well, you know, I... I struggle with the name AI a little bit. >> Yeah, no, no, I understand, yeah. >> I'm working on a talk, and you know, I kind of like don't, I don't enjoy the artificial aspect of it because it's really just intelligence, and you know, right now it's a buzzword people are throwing into everything when really they mean, "We use an algorithm." (laughs) You know, it's not truly AI, but when we get to cognition we get, you know, to, you know, someday if we have quantum supremacy we'll have, you know, systems that actually can maybe have a consciousness, you know, and decide things. That's where I'm interested, I'm looking... Like on the devops side I'm looking for people using AI to get away with repetitive tasks. Like I would love to see, you know, someone have a system where it's like, "Hey, we've noticed, you know, 90 times "this week this guy's done this exact "same thing, you know, 99% the same way." Like, let's automate that away. You know, we've been really good in the space to kind of treat infrastructure like code, you know, and be able to tear things up. Like I mean, I've been incredibly excited to see, like just in my career, how we went from, "Okay, you're going to do something meaningful on the web. "You need to build a data center. "You need to, you know, get a bunch of servers, racks," and then you pay all this equipment and oh, by the way, 18 months from now it's going to be obsolete and you're going to have to spend money again, to where now I can just, you know, get some credits to start up in the cloud, you know, try things out and do like really meaningful things. So, just looking for anyone on AI that's going to do something that moves the needle. >> Yeah, now that, yeah, just on the terminology piece, I've lived through the cloud wars and the argument over what was and what isn't, so it's just, you know, the shorthand for this wave that we have there, where AI or ML, or you know, IBM has some interesting terms that they want to call it. We understand that there's intelligence that I can do with software, a lot of machine-to-machine things that are going on, and it's not a lot of, you know, shouldn't be a lot of heavy lifting by people to go in there. Oh, wait, I can train something, I can learn what's happening, so... >> Well, I wanted to ask when... I'm sure a lot of entrepreneurs ears are pricking up when they hear that you want to make these meaningful investments. What is it that you look for in a company, is it... In terms of the leadership team, in terms of any track record, what sort of makes your eyes light up? >> So, I try to go to as many conferences as I can, because I feel that's where, you know, the hallway track and I can meet people. I can see, you know, their talks, see what they're passionate about, so what I'm really looking for is investing more in the people than in the idea, because startups can always pivot, and you look at some of the greatest companies out there, they were pivots from, you know, a slightly different model and they realized that, "Oh, we should go chase down this other thing." So, to me, I'm looking for people that are doing something exciting where they are already, looking to make the leap. You know, for example, like you know, the Spinnaker team or people that do something, you know, like... You know, like if etcd wanted to move off and be a separate company, like things like that where they've done something, they've proven it, and now they want to go start a company around it, and I think right off the bat, like if you've built some interesting technology that people are starting to use you have a decent revenue stream just from support, you know, of that and helping those end users, and I think, you know, with O'Reilly we do something a little different than other people. Like I focus mostly on seed investment, very early stage. Our typical check size is around $500k, and I actually allow people to take us off the cap table and just pay us back. Like you know, I've done nine startups in my career, and it's... Fundraising is one of those things where you only get good at it once you don't need it anymore, (chuckles) and I felt the pain of being on that side of the desk and I want to be in the position where, you know, we can write the checks and not try to, like, have a lot of governance, not try to take a board seat, not give you down pressure, you know, on what you're doing but really be additive. I think moving forward I would love to be in the position where we can help incubate, you know, a lot of companies because we've found that, you know, you all kind of go through, every company goes through the same process like, "Now, we need a real CFO because "we need financial projections." Like, being able to, like, provide those services for portfolio companies where they don't have to go spend their resources chasing that down. >> I'm curious how much some of the big players, or just the gravity of what's happening in the space that you're looking at, so obviously we're here at the Microsoft show, but Google, Amazon, a lot of activity going on and we can call it AI or what you will, VMware even, Oracle, SalesForce, how much of the big players defining and you have to build around them, versus you know, we look at Kubernetes is supposed to make things independent, to be able to be opensource and be able to build solutions, you know, regardless of what platform they're on. >> Yeah, I mean, I think we're living in a world where people have a lot of choice, you know, and we look at even, like we take the example of cloud providers. Like, as long as I don't get vendor lock in and use, you know, their specific features, like I can move around to different cloud providers, I can now say I want to negotiate a better price here and migrate over, and I think just with any of the technologies, like trying to work in ways where companies can work together and be additive, I think that's where we actually move, you know, move down the field. I don't know what analogy's appropriate to use, but you know, I feel like there's a lot of really interesting stuff that we should be doing, and making... Every company doing a slightly different version of the same thing I don't think, you know, makes sense. Like, you know, even silly things like as we mature. Like, you know, back in the day everyone used to have broadcast television. We built all these antennas, we got all this range, you know, and then we moved to digital and we didn't need those antennas, we didn't need that range, so they started decommissioning them, but then companies came along and they're like, "Well, wait, now we have this "unlicensed spectrum we can use." So, now they're using it for internet. You know, you can get 20 megabit connectivity out to a rural farm where now they can put some cheap IoT sensors, and like, do really meaningful things with low cost technologies, like those are the things I'm interesting in. You know, so kids that want to cobble together, you know, IoT sensors and come up with a way to use, you know, what they have in rural areas, and like, and have technology actually help people in a meaningful way, and I think those are a lot of very viable startups, you know, in that space. I do think we live in a world where every company's going to end up graduating into one of the camps, be it, you know, SalesForce, Google, you know, Microsoft, but in that innovation spike, like when they're first starting improving out the companies I think they have a ton of choice, you know. >> You described a very beneficent approach to how you think about VC. Do you think, how would you describe the VC landscape right now? You said you want to be able to just incubate great ideas and help these young companies when they are not good at fundraising and they don't have the smooth, slick deck that will really impress the bigger VC firms. I mean, how, what's wrong with the VC landscape today and what else are you doing to make it better? >> Well, I think the incentives are a little off. You know, I can speak for myself, like when I was... You know, when I was looking to raise VC money and my previous companies, like you know, you get these great offers from people, but then you talk to other entrepreneurs and you're like, you know, I'm not going to call anyone out by name, but you're like, "Well, how is this VC's firm served you," and you start hearing of ways that it was additive, but also kind of put undue pressure on them, or they say things like, "Well, we really didn't "need to raise that round then. "We could've done bridge financing "or we could've figured out how to get a MVP product "out there and brought in some revenue." So, I just think it's the ultrahigh returns that VCs are looking for, and the promises that those VCs are making to their LPs, (chuckles) you know, in their funds to outperform everyone else, and you know, everyone talks to everyone, right? So, if anything's meaningful out there looking for investment kind of the back channel is very vibrant and it's dog-eat-dog, and some of it, I kind of reckon it to, you know, your alma mater, like where you went to school. Like, you know, if you're an MIT person, like MIT's the best place in the world. You know, if you're, you know, some other school, they're the best place in the world, and the VCs tend to kind of, like, fall in those camps, and what I'm looking to do-- >> And those are real biases that impact women and underrepresented minorities, to their detriment. >> Yeah, and you know, and that's the thing I've struggled with, too, when you look at the... Like, let's take Andreessen, you know, for example and you look at the portfolio companies, like you know, you kind of become locked into that ecosystem. Like if you want to go, you know, if I'm on Mesosphere and I want to go partner with someone that's not under that, or they have a company in that portfolio that does similar things, you're going to be pressured into working with the portfolio company over going off and maybe choosing the better, you know, choice for the industry, so I'd like to see, you know, those things change. >> Right, and so, Patrick, we talked a little bit about Ziften, security endpoint, you know, really hot space. I want to give the opportunity, other companies you have here that we should check out. >> Yeah, so we work closely with the team at Turbonomic. I think, you know, what they've done over time, you know, is amazing. I love products where you can just bolt it in and within a short period of time you're getting value. Like, you know, stepping back and just saying one thing about Ziften, like I think it's amazing, because I come from a software development, you know, background, and one thing as a software developer I've always found fascinating is like when you come in wearing the developer hat they give you the keys to the kingdom. They're like, "Oh, here's root access to the servers, "here's where all of our data is, "here's how you do a snapshot of production "to, you know, test it, you know, in staging," and I've always thought that it was a tremendous amount of risk, and you know, on average a company can be hacked for up to 100 days before they even realize that they've had a breach, and like, any kind of company, you know, be it Ziften or anyone in that space, that can showcase that to you. Like, you know, raise up things that you weren't aware of, you know, is really interesting, and then, you know, to the, like, Nico and Turbonomics and the things that they're doing there. Like, to actually get the most out of what you already have, like that's huge to me, because one of the, you know, one of the things I see in cloud computing that we didn't necessarily have, you know, directly owned physical infrastructure is it's almost too easy to spin things up. You know, you've got the guy clicking through the UIs like, "Oh, this instance looks great. "Oh, and it says it's only be $140 this month," and then they end up spinning up 1,000 of those, you know? (laughs) You get that first sticker shock of, like, here's that $250,000 bill that month, (chuckles) you know, for cloud, and companies like Turbonomics can, like, avoid you, you know, making those mistakes. >> Great, Patrick, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. It was really fun talking. >> Yeah. >> We could talk to you for hours. >> Thanks for having me, I appreciate it. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. We will have more from theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite coming up in just a little bit. (techy music)

>> Live from San Francisco. It's theCUBE covering DockerCon '18. Brought to you by Docker and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of DockerCon 2018. I'm Lisa Martin, in San Francisco, with John Troyer and we're excited to welcome to theCUBE for the first time, Ed Hsu, the V.P. of Product and Product Marketing at Mesosphere. Great to have you on, Ed. >> Thank you. Pleasure to be here. >> So, Mesosphere. Tell us about you guys, what do you do? Why are you at DockerCon? >> Yeah. So, Mesosphere is a hybrid cloud software platform. We basically enable you to very easily adopt all types of new cloud-native technologies like Docker, Kubernetes, Spark, all the things that you think about to build these world changing applications. We automate that for you to run on hybrid cloud infrastructures. >> Nice. So, maybe you could break it down a little bit more. I know people can sometimes get confused. Mesosphere the company, Mesosphere the project, DC/OS the product, and then Kubernetes, and we're here at DockerCon, so maybe untangle some of those things a little bit. >> Sure. Maybe I'll go in chronological order. So Apache Mesos was actually created way back, I think around 2010 as a project to figure out if you had to rebuild Google's proprietary architecture for hyper-scale computing, what might that look like? So that became this project called Apache Mesos. Later on, at companies like Twitter, Airbnb, it started being used to solve some real challenges around scale-ability and performance. Arguably, without Mesos as a technology, I don't think Twitter would probably exist today because Twitter used to crash a lot. You guys remember that. You got the fail whale picture and all that stuff. Apparently, Justin Bieber used to crash Twitter, right? And Mesos became part of the solution. Now, you fast forward a few years later, containerization really caught on, right? And then Docker became a game changer in terms of making sure people start using and adopting container technologies, really popularize containerization, and of course, Kubernetes later came along as a way to orchestrate the operations of these containers. Now, where Mesosphere fits in is our platform is actually below a container-orchestrator, right so, Kubernetes is actually the fifth container-orchestrator to run on Mesos. There's earlier ones like Netflix, I think Twitter themselves. There's different types of container orchestration tools, and Kubernetes became the most recent and frankly most popular container-orchestration tool, and Mesosphere enables customers to really get one turn-key installation and operations of that technology. >> You mentioned Netflix, and I'm thinking, it powers a lot of our lives. But thinking about IoT data-driven applications like that, how does Mesosphere help power IoT and those data-driven applications? >> So, any IoT application probably needs at least three major sets of capabilities. The first is, you have to ingest tons of data. If you're a connected car or a home appliance company, there's a lot of data coming in from all these internet-connected devices. You need a way to ingest all that data without losing any of it and making sure you can be responsible. You also want to be able to analyze that data. So tools like Spark and other things become very important. You also need to be able to host an application or service, and Kubernetes becoming the most popular way to serve these applications. The last and by far, I think, most important piece for hybrid-cloud or for, excuse me, for IoT use cases, is the concept of hybrid-cloud and edge computing. At Mesosphere, we have many connected car companies that are doing connected car or self-driving car projects are actually working with us. And the reason for this is, we provide consistency for running containers like with Kubernetes or data services like Spark and Kafka on a really elastic infrastructure that can be on a data center, on AWS, on Google, or beneath a cell tower or even a cruise ship. Those are all actual use cases. We provide a consistent operating model for operators to just install and run all of this stuff. >> Super nice. I love in 2018 we're past some of the press conversation around who's gonna win or there's only gonna be one way of doing one stack that's gonna win, and Kubernetes versus whatever, and that was a conversation a few years ago. What I love about 2018 is people are in production. And live and time-to-value are very quick and very powerful and very deep and enlightens big data apps. Huge footprint apps as well. So, can you talk a little bit about some of your customers and also, in terms of the hybrid cloud. Are we seeing, are people on Pram? Are you seeing a lot of multi-cloud uses? Do apps span on Pram and clouds? What are some of the use cases and patterns that you see? >> Yeah. So, I think, maybe I'll start with the one I find is most interesting which is Royal Caribbean. If I were to ask you what is the largest computing cluster in the world by geography, you probably wouldn't say Royal Caribbean. So I haven't been on a cruise in a while, but apparently... I remember back in the day when I was a child, when I went on a cruise, you get a daily print-out of today's activities, and if you wanna go upgrade to a meal plan or do a tour or scuba diving, you go line up somewhere, and then you register for it, and if there's enough inventory, you get to do it. And so Royal Caribbean is actually trying to move all of this into a mobile app experience where based on your preferences, based on your history, based on what's available, they'll push certain campaigns to get you to "John, you really gotta try this scuba diving because we've got excess inventory, and we know you have a history of wanting to do surfing excursion" and so forth. So what Royal Caribbean has done is create an infrastructure where they're doing Test and Dev on campaigns and things like that on AWS. They actually do a lot of analytics on Pram in their own data center, and then when a ship is out at sea, serving those mobile applications from on Pram cloud-computing environment. All of this on Mesosphere's DC/OS. And what this means is that the data for interacting with passengers and the campaigns that are available, the management of the inventory, all that data, when the ship is in dock, flies from a data center, through a satellite, through Kafka into the ship. When the ship goes out to sea, all the internet connection is used for, people Skyping with grandma and grandpa and all that stuff, so the ship can actually, from an edge computing standpoint, provide all the resources it needs for these personalized interaction commission. >> That's a big example, Royal Caribbean. It was a very interesting use case, and I know you mentioned Netflix, Verizon. I think I saw a Verizon customer video on your website. When you're talking with companies of either those sizes or Royal Caribbean that's been around for a long time versus a cloud-native like Netflix, what are some of the common data center modernization concerns that you're hearing consistently across company sizes and maybe even consistently across industries? >> Sure. I think that's a great point. I think some of the early, early adopters, like Netflix, Twitter, they have their own way of building out their hyper-scale infrastructures. And so we work very closely with them to address their needs. What we're starting to see as the technology becomes mainstream... There are a lot of common challenges that these mainstream enterprises are either not experienced with, not staffed for, or just don't have the budget to blow a lot on these types of projects. And so, what becomes a key concern is a lot of companies today recognize containerization is interesting, it's important. It has the potential to deliver cost savings, and they recognize they have to move to a Dev/Ops model to deliver code very quickly. But then they also realize that we're starting to live in an always connected economy where you can't just sell a product and not expect to hear from the customer until they have a problem with it. You wanna interact with them, you wanna use that data to help improve the experience for the customer. How do you manage all this information? So the whole concept of data engineering, data operations, and data science becomes really a key factor for many enterprises. And for a lot of them, they just don't have the resources to really address it. Now, there are many different companies that provide individual point solutions for those technologies, but how do you bring it all together in a multi-tenet way, right? How do you make sure if you have one team that's using one version of Spark and another team using a different version of Spark that they can actually share infrastructure? And that's where Mesosphere's uniqueness has really come front and center. We basically pull these data services the way VMware pulled the traditional model basic applications. So the cost saving you saw from server consolidation, we're doing from cluster consolidation and dramatically reducing costs while automating operations at the same time. >> I'd like to follow up on that a little bit. I think ever since the launch of DC/OS a few years back, big data was a differentiator for Mesosphere. And, again, another term that's been through it's own hype cycle, right? But it's real today. Can you maybe go a little deeper with the consolidation piece? How are Mesosphere admins interacting with data scientists or even on the container side and the infrastructure side, what do you have to do differently to make sure the memory footprints and all the various big data platforms are able to be supported? >> Yeah. So I think big data 1.0, let's call it, was really a batch operating model. Wait 'til the data comes in at the end of the quarter, make some recommendations on how the business can improve the next quarter. You guys have all seen reports. I think Gardner talked about one where 80% of due projects have failed. And the reason for this is that it was hard to justify the benefit right up front. The cost and the complexity of rolling out these projects was very prohibitive. Now, what Mesosphere brings is the ability to adopt many different types of these next generation data technologies. Spark, Cassandra distributed database, Kafka message queue, TensorFlow, Elasticsearch, these are all technologies that have become increasingly popular, but the challenge for most enterprises is it's hard to have a whole team just dedicated to learning Kafka and another one on Spark and another one on Cassandra. What if your competitors hire them away? And how do you run all these different technologies that are clustered systems that require a lot of infrastructure? They're not designed to run together and pull together efficiently. That's what Mesosphere really brings to these technologies. One is the ability to automate all these technologies, so instead of getting a whole team to figure out how to run stuff, it's literally one click installation, or a single command on the DC/OS command console. And then two being able to run all these different types of data services in a highly pulled way so that you don't have different clusters that are turning into snowflakes that cannot be reused by other teams. This gives you dramatic changes in how people operate. If you were a big data team at a major bank and somebody said "I wanna do transactions on your infrastructure," you would probably say "No, stay out of my infrastructure because I want to make sure I have the resources to do analytics," and the same would be true for the people who are actually doing the real-time transaction-processing with customers. What if I told you I can give you a way to do application-aware automations so that these services can be automated very easily? And two, these resources can share an infrastructure while maintaining resource guarantees. Now, all of a sudden, the individual functional leads or business unit leads would go "Okay, I'm okay with sharing resources with these other BU's, especially if it gives me the benefit over time of helping different BU's cross-pollinate information." >> A whole different way of interacting with big data, right? And actually making it useful. >> Maybe forcing collaboration. I wish we had more time, but we wanna thank you so much for stopping by theCUBE, telling us what's new at Mesosphere. Sounds like never a dull moment. >> Oh, absolutely. Thank you very much. >> We wanna thank you for watching theCUBE. I am Lisa Martin with John Troyer from DockerCon 2018. Stick around, John and I will be right back with our last guest. (techno music)