(upbeat music) >> Thanks so much, and we're back here live. Live, I love saying that, at cloud city, at Mobile World Congress. Barcelona at the Fira. It's just been crazy here all week. We've been going wall to wall coverage. Am really excited to have John Savill here, as a principal cloud solutions architect at Microsoft. John, welcome to Barcelona, man. Come on in the cube. >> Oh yeah, thank you for having me. I'm not quite getting that Barcelona vibe here, but seems great. >> Well, you were just tell you look great. You just did an iron man up in Idaho, so awesome. Congratulations on completing that and many more in your future, I'm sure. You have a really interesting background. You know, in addition to your amazing cardiovascular capabilities. As a cloud architect, you've got a long history, 20 plus year history, you know, digging in at Microsoft. In your spare time you write books on architecture and you've got a great YouTube channel, a lot of subscribers. Tell us a little bit about that. >> Yeah, so it really started out 25 years ago. I was playing around with windows and technology and I just tried to share information. So I created a website artifact.com and I wrote magazine articles. And then people asked me to write some books and it's really evolved from there. And the most recent thing is actually the YouTube and I really enjoy doing the videos. It's a lot more rapid in terms of creating the content and sharing it, whereas the book takes six months. You'd write the book and then with technology moving as fast as it is, especially the cloud, you write a book on the cloud and then it's published and it's out on date. And so now this ability to create the content and get it to people a few minutes later, it's just phenomenal. So it's my hobby and my passion. And it's the best of both worlds for me. >> I love a CICD of books. Okay, Let's get into it. We've been talking all week about and actually drawing a lot of parallels with the traditional enterprise IT business and what's happening in Telco In one stop I just talking about the shifts in responsibilities for architects and the organizational roles, when you go from, you know, on-prem, everything's inside of a virtual machine, when you go to the cloud, there's a lot more optionality. As you just pointed out, things are a lot faster. What have you seen in your experience what's different? What should we be thinking about? >> Yeah, so exactly, as you said, it on premise really everything is a virtual machine. It's an OS that you have to manage, like the thing about the patching, the security, the policy. And then I have to put things inside this virtual machine, but that's my unit of work. Some coming to the site and look at containers on premises. And then they struggle with managing one even orchestrator. So I'm managing Kuberneters and ITs and there's work there. When you move to the cloud, you have all these other types of service. You think about serverless kind of at an end of a spectrum where, hey, I just have some code. I want to run based on some event, maybe a schedule, maybe a web hook, some trigger, some event happens. And I only pay for when it's doing work. But what I care about is my code or my focus is this is my code. I don't care about any of the other stuff that makes it work. I just can focus on my code, but you still have the options. I can do containers. I can do virtual machines if that's what I want to do. But my responsibility can really laser focus just on the business value. Generally as a company, I don't really care about managing an OS or patching, I want to see what differentiates my business from someone else. And when I moved to the cloud, I can shift my focus to just that business value and let the cloud vendor take care of the responsibility of keeping the things running, enables me to shift and just focus on value, which is key. >> And as a cloud vendor, that allows you to price by consumption in a very transparent way, and as a customer, now I know what I'm paying for and I can align that investment as you were just pointing out with the business value. >> Oh, absolutely. Right, so again, on premises, we have bits of equipment. We have this server, with memory and CPU, and generally we have different usage. We have peaks and we have lows. We have the same bit of hardware I'm paying for all of the time, we have disaster recovery. I'm paying for that all of the time. If I have customers all over the world, well, speed of light is speed of light. I have to wrap boxes all over the world in the cloud. I can have services dynamically scale based on the need, based on the work coming in. I can scale the amount of resource% I have available to meet that. So I'm optimizing my costs to only pay for what I actually need at any given moment. And of course we have regions all over the world. So suddenly now I can be super close to my customers. So its right, it completely changes how the companies can think about spending the money to only spend what they have to spend on what they want to spend it on. >> Yeah so the last decade clearly the aha moment for enterprise tech, just in terms of really understanding those benefits. And we saw it, you know, it actually first hit right around the financial crisis. When you know, all the CFOs said, "hey, shift your CapEx to OPEX immediately. And then we came out of that downturn and people said, "hey, this stuff, this cloud stuff actually is really good. Let's start to really change our business models around it." And, and there's a lot of relevance for Telco here. And you've talked about cloud as a, a flat layer, three network, what do you mean by that? >> Yes, if you think about on premises, you have bits of wire. Now that might be copper wire, it might be fiber, but you have these bits of wire that connects stuff. And I can think about connecting different bits of staff, to different network cards to enable me to separate systems and how they can communicate to each other and segregate. So that's how I've always thought about on premise is that why I separate stuff. A little bits of wire connecting different bits of network card. Well in the cloud, you don't have that. It's all software defined networking. If I think about a construct where I put my resources like a virtual network, it's just an IP of the layer three network there are no bits of wire. I can plug into different places. There are no different physical network cards. So we have to shift our thinking, and it can be very difficult. If I'm used to being an on-prem network admin, I'm used to the idea of the lines and cables and multiple nicks with different bits of copper plugged into them. When I go to the cloud, I have to shift that and think it is this flat layer three network. And when I want to segment things, now it's software defined networking walls, networks security groups, maybe botched appliances that can inspect the traffic. But it's a huge shift in thinking to how we now segregate and control how that networking actually functions. And of course, if you then want to extend that to hybrid connectivity, well, how does that then map to why my on-prem network? And I want to extend that to make it completely seamless into the cloud. >> Yeah, I don't want to come back to that, but I want to ask you about some of the organizational roles. 'Cause you've been at this for a couple of decades. So you've seen, you know, you remember the days of when you know, the expertise in managing a LAN a report was, you know, highly valued. It's not anymore. And so your colleagues, your peers in the industry, the architects that are your customers, they have to reinvent themselves. And that that's really now beginning to happen in Telco. So I wonder if you could talk about your thoughts, how you're thinking about cloud in telecom. >> Yeah, so I think what's happening is you still need skills. What shifts is, what is the type of skills you talked about LANs and managing storage. Well, you don't manage LANs anymore, but in the cloud, there's different types of storage service. There's different performance characteristics. IOPS throughput capacity. So we have to shift how we actually think about those skillings so I still need to architect accordingly. It's only to make sure I have the right characteristics, that it's just a different unit of work. I'm working with different tools now. And I think from a kind of telco perspective, they're really looking now, well, how can we leverage the cloud, Telcos in particular, have a huge pressure around very low latency. They have to be close to their customers. They deliver critical services. You can think about emergency services. They have to have super high availability. That's when you start moving to the cloud, they can now embrace the fact that well cloud has these various constructs like different physical structures within independent power calling communications. They have different regions, so I can be close my customers and kind of replicate between them. Through the Telco, you have to kind of firstly think about, well, okay, I still need to adhere to all of these core requirements. That quality of service, giving my customers a great experience, but now we have these different tools available in how we can actually deliver that. I think also a big shift is from a security perspective. I think especially Telcos love the idea of the network. The network is the be all and end all of security. When you start using the cloud network is still super important, but identity becomes this huge factor as well, because now I don't have this moat around my physical box. That copper wire doesn't have this disconnect. I'm in the cloud as so now we think about, well, how does the identity play into actually securing our resources? Because now we're going to have all these different cloud services that are going to talk to each other. We need to do that in a secure way. So the identity becomes this much bigger part of my architecture networks still super important, but now identity bumps up there as well. And I think that that's a key thing for Telcos is that there's a shift there. >> Yeah, well on speaking of shifts, a big conversation and Theme CubeCon this year was the shift left with security and designing security in. And really when you think about infrastructure as code, the programmable network, and you combine that with the cloud, I mean, Microsoft has gone through the greatest transformation of any tech company in the history of tech. And it did so with a cloud first mentality. And now you see that cloud expanding. It's clearly on prem you're bringing that you're connecting those, but now the edge. 5g networks and the it's very, you know, super exciting, you know, new compute architectures and new programming models. So this you're essentially building this abstraction layer that developers can really take advantage of having consistency across all those physical locations, really hiding the underlying complexity. I wonder if you could comment on that. >> Not, exactly. You're a 100% correct. So right Azure was a cloud service. So we had this cloud and we had services operating in that cloud, app services, data services, machine learning but you still have requirements for on-premises components. You talk about the edge. Well, hey, I may be, I'm using a private wireless network. I have my RAD, I have the core kind of packet switching components. Well, I still want things on premises then I need compute, I need workers running on my edge, close to where the data's being generated IOT sensors. What Azure has is yes, it has the public cloud services. Then it has things like Azure like edge, Azure stack hub, Azure like HCI that let me actually have things on premises in different form factors. But the can now run consistently like Azure services. I can manage them through Azure services, policy, security constructs, identity constructs, and then with things like if I have Kubernetes any kind of Kubernetes CNCF-compliant, I can actually now sync Azure arc, manage it through the cloud and I can deploy SQL manage instance, Postgres hyper-scale, machine learning, app services, serverless functions now running on-prem. So as a developer, as an architect, I create my solution, but now I can run it in the cloud, I can run it on premises. I don't have to make that conscious decision and do things differently. If my requirements change, I can move or do hybrid. So it really is a game changer. The customer gets the choice. I can leverage these technologies. I can write code and architect solutions and then run it where makes the most sense for me. >> Yeah, and we just got a couple of minutes here, just as we saw new applications emerge in the cloud, we're going to see new applications emerge at the edge. The developers will win the edge, I've said it many times. I'll give you the last thoughts, John. >> No, I just think it's a, it's an amazing, exciting time. I mean, you talked about kind of the whole shift left more and more companies are moving into kind of the whole infrastructures code and the dev ops models. And now we see security embedded all the way at the start of our pipeline. But I really just think this is the time now as a customer, as a Telco, you do have this fantastic set of capabilities available to you in the cloud, but you're always going to have, I think that on-premise is component as well. So you don't have to compromise. I don't have to say, well, I'd love to use this service, but wow, I had this anchor or I had this requirement on prem. I can use the same services. You have that complete choice. You can operate in the same way, the same pipelines, the same dev ops, the same security and one where it makes the most sense for you. I mean, it's a fantastic time. >> Well, John, thanks so much for virtually coming into Barcelona. We've got this great hybrid event, good luck in your career and in your Ironman competitions, all the best to you. Thank you. >> Thank you for having me, the pleasure. >> It's been our pleasure. So we're here, live at the, the Fira in Barcelona. We're in Cloud City. I'll tell you, I'll set it up. It's not like jammed packed where you can't move, you know, good thing we're in, still in the COVID, but it's like the post isolation economy here, but we're really excited to be sharing with you. We're going to go back to the studio to Adam Burns right now.

(bouncy techno music) >> Thank you, Adam. It's great working with you all week in the studio. We're here, live in Barcelona. TheCUBE's continuous coverage of Cloud City, it's unbelievable. Darragh Grealish is here, he's the chief technology officer and co-founder of 56K.Cloud. I love that name, we're going to talk about that. And Alexander Lerhmann is the director of new business development innovation at Sunrise UPC. Gents, great to see you, welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for coming on. >> Yeah. >> Thanks for having us. >> MWC, you guys made the bet to come here and aren't you glad you did? >> Yeah, we had to go through a lot of processes, but it was totally worth it, you know? >> Yeah, we're going to talk about edge cloud, right, and we're going to talk about developers, and how this whole thing's going to build out. But how do you think about the cloud? You know, we were talking to DR earlier. The cloud, people think it's a place. Increasingly people say, "no, that's actually an experience, it's a development environment." The cloud is expanding to the edge. The data center is just another edge node. How do you guys look at the edge cloud? >> Yeah well, we see the edge cloud as a huge opportunity to monetize on 5G. To bring the understanding, and the features that 5G can deliver into the next generation of developer experience. Because once we address developer experience, we're going to be able to address that next generation of user experience. >> Okay so, let's dig into a little bit about what each of your respective companies does. Tell us about 56K, and I love the name. Maybe a lot of people don't understand it, but y'know. >> Yeah, it's kind of a generation thing. So, I worked for a lot of large companies, all of them super long email addresses. At the same time, I grew up with the 56K modem. The dial-up modem, as you know it. >> Speaker: Right. >> And the transition from dial-up to broadband was massive. I mean, in terms of user experience on the web, you know. The impact on that technology that did, meant that finally you could control the user experience. You had some predictability, and we thought it was a catchy name. People relate to it. I used to work in test automations, so user experience was an important thing. And so, we kind of combine now, cloud and the 56k kind of understanding, so experience. And it's all about addressing that user experience. >> It's a game changer from a consumer experience at that time. >> Exactly. >> And that's obviously the metaphor you're using. Alexander, tell us more about Sunrise UPC, what their relationship is with 56K. >> Yeah, so Sunrise UPC obviously is a telecommunications provider. #2 largest private telecommunication provider in Switzerland. And in terms of partnership with 56K.Cloud, business started the conversation of how we can bring our world together with what 56K.Cloud is doing. We see a lot of things that we can do to kind of improve the offer from our end, to our customers in the wider community as well. >> Yeah so, this is a good example, right? Because we see, we always talk about the global telco industry, but there's a lot of localization, right? >> Alexander: Right. >> There's a lot of public policy that has to be considered. So let's get into the "Cloud" portion of your name. >> Darragh: Yeah. >> You think about things like wavelength. Which is essentially, it's really the outpost for 5G, if you think about it, right. They're not satellites, it's a platform for the development. Tell us about wavelength in 5G, the intersection there, why it's important. >> Yeah so, the edge cloud solution from Amazon, as you've heard of it, it's not just solving existing use cases or problems, it's actually creating new opportunities by combining the technologies of 5G network slicing, network exposed functions, and multiple access edge compute, you know, it's actually the platform. So, what we're trying to do is bring that developer experience at tuning that is dominated in this large ecosystem in the public cloud, stretched into the network because we need to start to see developers to see the network as an asset. Once they realize that speed, bandwidth, and latency, they're not fighting against this to deliver the best user experience. They can orchestrate this. They can be part of the challenge. And once we can get those developers to see the network as a value proposition, and this is the kind of minimum components that would build that next generation, you know, the next opportunities. So you know, you had an interview recently with Jeff Barr from AWS, and he referred to AWS waveband as, "this is not just solving existing issues." He said, "this is an opportunity," you know, combining 5G. 5G is not just 4G plus one, it's a whole stack of capabilities. And once operators realize that, they restack on public cloud, their telco stack. That's modernizing 5G, going to 5G standalone. And then once they're on public cloud, you know, dogfooding, you start to take those technologies, and you bring them to your subscriber base. But the developers that are in that subscriber base, once you address their need, they can have their creativity process, and building those super apps, like DATRON. Once they address that, then you're going to get that ultimate user experience. >> So, as a telco in the local region, you've got an advantage because you've got your presence at the edge, and you're leaning into next-gen, cloud-native, container, sort of developers. We've always said, "developers are going to win the edge." And you don't typically, most telcos anyway, we don't think of them as developer centric. You guys are different. So, can you talk about how you envision leveraging wavelength, and what the role of developers will be in your country? >> Yeah, I think for us first, it's essentially very important to kind of look at new stuff in many ways. You know, my role at the company is to look at innovative things, and to kind of think a little bit ahead, what's coming down the line, and not necessarily being revenue generating today, but maybe something that's coming, >> Dave: Right. >> sometime down the road. And I think that whole area has so much potential, it just plays into so many fields that are relevant for a telco. And it opens a new channel in many ways because, you know, we'll be able to not just sell connectivity, business, connectivity, mobile, all those products to our customers, but we actually take a more sophisticated route by working with a developer community, then I kind of augment the offering, but then we'll hit the customer. >> So we've seen CDNs and over-the-top providers come in, use your network, thank you, >> Darragh: Yes. >> for building out all that great infrastructure. It sounds like this is different. You're actually facilitating the development of new apps. >> Alexander: Yes. What's different, what kind of apps are we talking about here that you can monetize? >> I mean, it's from small to large, literally everything. I think what we've learned with the rollout of 5G is that it actually touches all industries. Maybe there's some others that shine a bit more than others, but fundamentally, it's such a big shift in terms of what we, as a telco, provides. It's not just this smartphone centric world any longer. It's much more like a building customized solution for particular customer segments, and help them in the industry. So, one thing, when I mentioned in particular was we are from Switzerland. Smart farming. Agriculture, right. And we can do a lot of good things there, if you bring all these technologies together and solve problems that this vertical has had in the past, which was literally increase food production, and be sustainable. Now you can do that, you know, in the old days that wasn't possible. >> So you're talking drones, stream data, and 5G enables that. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. I mean, that's a whole new world, and that is a great monetization opportunity. Who owns the data in that example? Is that a discussion that's going on, or? >> Well, who owns the data? The customer owns the data, right. If it's his or hers. >> Dave: Yeah good, right answer. (all laugh) >> How about when you think about 5G features, network slicing, other capabilities. How do you see 56K taking advantage of those, and working with the developer community to really exploit them? >> Yeah so, we've been more than four years already, working in public clouds, primarily on AWS. And what we've done is, you know, a lot of that cloud native migrations we've done, you know, we've seen those technologies. So what we're trying to do is remap that. And how we're doing this is we're going to be launching the 5G developer platform. It's going to be global ecosystem, open ecosystem, you can go and check it out, it's 5g.dev, literally. And in there, what we want to do is expose these new features of 5G, not just in telco language. So we're launching these kind of networks that slice as code, so that you have this infrastructure as code, in the public cloud domain. This is what resonates with developers. You want to stretch that, and like I mentioned earlier, make that network slices code. So search features, and network slicing dynamic narrative slicing is enhanced mobile broadband, geofence ways, speed, bandwidth, ultra reliable low-latency. I've seen it with my own eyes. You can single digit milliseconds. It's ridiculous how accurate it can be. And then there is the massive IOT. So as you see in IOT, but actually bringing narrowband IOT really at scale, and not just you needing technical boundaries, or contractual boundaries to access that, the developer has the same experiences as in public cloud. And so we want to monetize this to a global 5G. >> Single digit latency, right? So I mean, you know what's going to happen. I think that's why I love the name so much, right. And what happened is people being the consumer at first it was like, "oh my gosh!" And then what happened is the developer community said, "look at all the great data apps we can push in." And then now it's just orders of magnitude more that we can do. And we saw video in the early days of video, it was jittery. And so, it's very exciting times. I think about the data center, and how virtualization occurred there. And, it was almost like force fitting an old model into a new model, where the cloud was setting the definition of that new model. And now they're kind of catching up. Telcos are in a similar situation, right? They've got very purpose-built infrastructure. You guys obviously are more forward-thinking in regard, but is there a parallel there with the old sort of virtualization days, and how you're modernizing the network? What's the state of the network today, and where do you see it going? >> Yeah, we've always looked at the network as our prime differentiator, and we had to be on top of new things, and make sure that it is top notch. That's sort of an indisputable- >> Dave: Table stakes. >> Table stakes, exactly. And so I guess from that point alone, you need to continue to look at how can you improve it? How can you make it more efficient? How can we make it more stable? I mean, frictionless is for us, a key word in that context. And I think with those new technologies, there's just more that we can do. And now we can actually, and this is the beauty of it that comes with 5G and all these new cloud technologies. We can actually make the network our offering again, by delivering network enabled services, which is something that comes with 5G that wasn't there with 4G. >> Yeah, those value added services are key. And it's almost like, I think about the virtualization days, but now we're bringing cloud-native containerization, Kubernetes, Docker, to this new world, and you're doing it on a cloud platform. So that's what's different about the data centers. Data centers were trying to do it on general purpose platforms that were kind of being refactored and forced into it. But the cloud has shown us the way, and it's different, isn't it? >> Yeah, exactly. Well, what has shown to us is that we know we no longer have to sell top down or anything. What we're doing is we have to sell developer to developer. There is multiple avenues, not just SIM cards, with subscribers or large enterprises wanting a thousand SIM cards. It's past that. Now it's developers building those augmented kind of user experiences on the apps, on drones. Like you mentioned too, like chargers and stuff, and aqua tech. In the end, these developers need to become aware that the network can be orchestrated by them. And that we can describe it's never against code, in a familiar way, the way they develop those applications. And we need to extend that developer experience with those applications, and not just be talking about, "no, I have slow speed here, I have fast speed.' I mean, we want to enable some really serious, interesting use cases. >> You used the term network as code infrastructure, as code has been a game changer, >> Darragh: Yup. >> in the technology industry. But, much of the infrastructure is not programmable. And so, what what you're envisioning is a world where, whether it's edge, whether it's data center or cloud, it's the same, right? >> Yeah. >> It's the same experience. The developer experience is the same. The program ability spans, that's the layer that spans all those physical locations. That's the game changer. >> Exactly, yeah. That's why we have to break down those technical boundaries inside the telco industry, and make this familiar to developers and expose them. So that's why we're working with all the major ISVs, the vendors, like you've seen here today in Cloud City. What what we're doing is we're making those never exposed functions, if you call it that way, in a way that the developers can relate to. And why that's really important, is because then they have the same experience on the mobile expert app world. But at the same time we've been here at Cloud City, what we realized is actually, the vendors are also interested in that too, because they want to talk across from each other, and build and be more rapid, and actually in the end, build more competitive, be more competitive in terms of the network implementation. Because right now, there isn't yet this value proposition of why do I need a 5G phone. Why do we need a 5G, 4G is just good enough once I have three out of four bars. (Dave laughs) We need to get that 4G to 5G transition. And the developers are going to drive that. >> Well, when customers see the applications, it's going to shine a light. We've got the mobile network operators, we've got the whole 5G networks licensed capability. We've got this edge cloud coming together, real quick. You got to be excited, Alexander. >> That is an absolutely exciting point in our development and in our evolution as an industry, and it's a huge opportunity, because as again, as I said earlier, it is game changing. It's not just an evolution, but it's really a next major step forward to do things differently. >> Guys, great having you. >> Yup. >> We've got to go, We're going to take it back to Adam Burns in the studio. Thanks for watching.

(bouncy techno music) >> Thank you, Adam. It's great working with you all week in the studio. We're here, live in Barcelona. TheCUBE's continuous coverage of Cloud City, it's unbelievable. Darragh Grealish is here, he's the chief technology officer and co-founder of 56K.Cloud. I love that name, we're going to talk about that. And Alexander Lerhmann is the director of new business development innovation at Sunrise UPC. Gents, great to see you, welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for coming on. >> Yeah. >> Thanks for having us. >> MWC, you guys made the bet to come here and aren't you glad you did? >> Yeah, we had to go through a lot of processes, but it was totally worth it, you know? >> Yeah, we're going to talk about edge cloud, right, and we're going to talk about developers, and how this whole thing's going to build out. But how do you think about the cloud? You know, we were talking to DR earlier. The cloud, people think it's a place. Increasingly people say, "no, that's actually an experience, it's a development environment." The cloud is expanding to the edge. The data center is just another edge node. How do you guys look at the edge cloud? >> Yeah well, we see the edge cloud as a huge opportunity to monetize on 5G. To bring the understanding, and the features that 5G can deliver into the next generation of developer experience. Because once we address developer experience, we're going to be able to address that next generation of user experience. >> Okay so, let's dig into a little bit about what each of your respective companies does. Tell us about 56K, and I love the name. Maybe a lot of people don't understand it, but y'know. >> Yeah, it's kind of a generation thing. So, I worked for a lot of large companies, all of them super long email addresses. At the same time, I grew up with the 56K modem. The dial-up modem, as you know it. >> Speaker: Right. >> And the transition from dial-up to broadband was massive. I mean, in terms of user experience on the web, you know. The impact on that technology that did, meant that finally you could control the user experience. You had some predictability, and we thought it was a catchy name. People relate to it. I used to work in test automations, so user experience was an important thing. And so, we kind of combine now, cloud and the 56k kind of understanding, so experience. And it's all about addressing that user experience. >> It's a game changer from a consumer experience at that time. >> Exactly. >> And that's obviously the metaphor you're using. Alexander, tell us more about Sunrise UPC, what their relationship is with 56K. >> Yeah, so Sunrise UPC obviously is a telecommunications provider. #2 largest private telecommunication provider in Switzerland. And in terms of partnership with 56K.Cloud, business started the conversation of how we can bring our world together with what 56K.Cloud is doing. We see a lot of things that we can do to kind of improve the offer from our end, to our customers in the wider community as well. >> Yeah so, this is a good example, right? Because we see, we always talk about the global telco industry, but there's a lot of localization, right? >> Alexander: Right. >> There's a lot of public policy that has to be considered. So let's get into the "Cloud" portion of your name. >> Darragh: Yeah. >> You think about things like wavelength. Which is essentially, it's really the outpost for 5G, if you think about it, right. They're not satellites, it's a platform for the development. Tell us about wavelength in 5G, the intersection there, why it's important. >> Yeah so, the edge cloud solution from Amazon, as you've heard of it, it's not just solving existing use cases or problems, it's actually creating new opportunities by combining the technologies of 5G network slicing, network exposed functions, and multiple access edge compute, you know, it's actually the platform. So, what we're trying to do is bring that developer experience at tuning that is dominated in this large ecosystem in the public cloud, stretched into the network because we need to start to see developers to see the network as an asset. Once they realize that speed, bandwidth, and latency, they're not fighting against this to deliver the best user experience. They can orchestrate this. They can be part of the challenge. And once we can get those developers to see the network as a value proposition, and this is the kind of minimum components that would build that next generation, you know, the next opportunities. So you know, you had an interview recently with Jeff Barr from AWS, and he referred to AWS waveband as, "this is not just solving existing issues." He said, "this is an opportunity," you know, combining 5G. 5G is not just 4G plus one, it's a whole stack of capabilities. And once operators realize that, they restack on public cloud, their telco stack. That's modernizing 5G, going to 5G standalone. And then once they're on public cloud, you know, dogfooding, you start to take those technologies, and you bring them to your subscriber base. But the developers that are in that subscriber base, once you address their need, they can have their creativity process, and building those super apps, like DATRON. Once they address that, then you're going to get that ultimate user experience. >> So, as a telco in the local region, you've got an advantage because you've got your presence at the edge, and you're leaning into next-gen, cloud-native, container, sort of developers. We've always said, "developers are going to win the edge." And you don't typically, most telcos anyway, we don't think of them as developer centric. You guys are different. So, can you talk about how you envision leveraging wavelength, and what the role of developers will be in your country? >> Yeah, I think for us first, it's essentially very important to kind of look at new stuff in many ways. You know, my role at the company is to look at innovative things, and to kind of think a little bit ahead, what's coming down the line, and not necessarily being revenue generating today, but maybe something that's coming, >> Dave: Right. >> sometime down the road. And I think that whole area has so much potential, it just plays into so many fields that are relevant for a telco. And it opens a new channel in many ways because, you know, we'll be able to not just sell connectivity, business, connectivity, mobile, all those products to our customers, but we actually take a more sophisticated route by working with a developer community, then I kind of augment the offering, but then we'll hit the customer. >> So we've seen CDNs and over-the-top providers come in, use your network, thank you, >> Darragh: Yes. >> for building out all that great infrastructure. It sounds like this is different. You're actually facilitating the development of new apps. >> Alexander: Yes. What's different, what kind of apps are we talking about here that you can monetize? >> I mean, it's from small to large, literally everything. I think what we've learned with the rollout of 5G is that it actually touches all industries. Maybe there's some others that shine a bit more than others, but fundamentally, it's such a big shift in terms of what we, as a telco, provides. It's not just this smartphone centric world any longer. It's much more like a building customized solution for particular customer segments, and help them in the industry. So, one thing, when I mentioned in particular was we are from Switzerland. Smart farming. Agriculture, right. And we can do a lot of good things there, if you bring all these technologies together and solve problems that this vertical has had in the past, which was literally increase food production, and be sustainable. Now you can do that, you know, in the old days that wasn't possible. >> So you're talking drones, stream data, and 5G enables that. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. I mean, that's a whole new world, and that is a great monetization opportunity. Who owns the data in that example? Is that a discussion that's going on, or? >> Well, who owns the data? The customer owns the data, right. If it's his or hers. >> Dave: Yeah good, right answer. (all laugh) >> How about when you think about 5G features, network slicing, other capabilities. How do you see 56K taking advantage of those, and working with the developer community to really exploit them? >> Yeah so, we've been more than four years already, working in public clouds, primarily on AWS. And what we've done is, you know, a lot of that cloud native migrations we've done, you know, we've seen those technologies. So what we're trying to do is remap that. And how we're doing this is we're going to be launching the 5G developer platform. It's going to be global ecosystem, open ecosystem, you can go and check it out, it's 5g.dev, literally. And in there, what we want to do is expose these new features of 5G, not just in telco language. So we're launching these kind of networks that slice as code, so that you have this infrastructure as code, in the public cloud domain. This is what resonates with developers. You want to stretch that, and like I mentioned earlier, make that network slices code. So search features, and network slicing dynamic narrative slicing is enhanced mobile broadband, geofence ways, speed, bandwidth, ultra reliable low-latency. I've seen it with my own eyes. You can single digit milliseconds. It's ridiculous how accurate it can be. And then there is the massive IOT. So as you see in IOT, but actually bringing narrowband IOT really at scale, and not just you needing technical boundaries, or contractual boundaries to access that, the developer has the same experiences as in public cloud. And so we want to monetize this to a global 5G. >> Single digit latency, right? So I mean, you know what's going to happen. I think that's why I love the name so much, right. And what happened is people being the consumer at first it was like, "oh my gosh!" And then what happened is the developer community said, "look at all the great data apps we can push in." And then now it's just orders of magnitude more that we can do. And we saw video in the early days of video, it was jittery. And so, it's very exciting times. I think about the data center, and how virtualization occurred there. And, it was almost like force fitting an old model into a new model, where the cloud was setting the definition of that new model. And now they're kind of catching up. Telcos are in a similar situation, right? They've got very purpose-built infrastructure. You guys obviously are more forward-thinking in regard, but is there a parallel there with the old sort of virtualization days, and how you're modernizing the network? What's the state of the network today, and where do you see it going? >> Yeah, we've always looked at the network as our prime differentiator, and we had to be on top of new things, and make sure that it is top notch. That's sort of an indisputable- >> Dave: Table stakes. >> Table stakes, exactly. And so I guess from that point alone, you need to continue to look at how can you improve it? How can you make it more efficient? How can we make it more stable? I mean, frictionless is for us, a key word in that context. And I think with those new technologies, there's just more that we can do. And now we can actually, and this is the beauty of it that comes with 5G and all these new cloud technologies. We can actually make the network our offering again, by delivering network enabled services, which is something that comes with 5G that wasn't there with 4G. >> Yeah, those value added services are key. And it's almost like, I think about the virtualization days, but now we're bringing cloud-native containerization, Kubernetes, Docker, to this new world, and you're doing it on a cloud platform. So that's what's different about the data centers. Data centers were trying to do it on general purpose platforms that were kind of being refactored and forced into it. But the cloud has shown us the way, and it's different, isn't it? >> Yeah, exactly. Well, what has shown to us is that we know we no longer have to sell top down or anything. What we're doing is we have to sell developer to developer. There is multiple avenues, not just SIM cards, with subscribers or large enterprises wanting a thousand SIM cards. It's past that. Now it's developers building those augmented kind of user experiences on the apps, on drones. Like you mentioned too, like chargers and stuff, and aqua tech. In the end, these developers need to become aware that the network can be orchestrated by them. And that we can describe it's never against code, in a familiar way, the way they develop those applications. And we need to extend that developer experience with those applications, and not just be talking about, "no, I have slow speed here, I have fast speed.' I mean, we want to enable some really serious, interesting use cases. >> You used the term network as code infrastructure, as code has been a game changer, >> Darragh: Yup. >> in the technology industry. But, much of the infrastructure is not programmable. And so, what what you're envisioning is a world where, whether it's edge, whether it's data center or cloud, it's the same, right? >> Yeah. >> It's the same experience. The developer experience is the same. The program ability spans, that's the layer that spans all those physical locations. That's the game changer. >> Exactly, yeah. That's why we have to break down those technical boundaries inside the telco industry, and make this familiar to developers and expose them. So that's why we're working with all the major ISVs, the vendors, like you've seen here today in Cloud City. What what we're doing is we're making those never exposed functions, if you call it that way, in a way that the developers can relate to. And why that's really important, is because then they have the same experience on the mobile expert app world. But at the same time we've been here at Cloud City, what we realized is actually, the vendors are also interested in that too, because they want to talk across from each other, and build and be more rapid, and actually in the end, build more competitive, be more competitive in terms of the network implementation. Because right now, there isn't yet this value proposition of why do I need a 5G phone. Why do we need a 5G, 4G is just good enough once I have three out of four bars. (Dave laughs) We need to get that 4G to 5G transition. And the developers are going to drive that. >> Well, when customers see the applications, it's going to shine a light. We've got the mobile network operators, we've got the whole 5G networks licensed capability. We've got this edge cloud coming together, real quick. You got to be excited, Alexander. >> That is an absolutely exciting point in our development and in our evolution as an industry, and it's a huge opportunity, because as again, as I said earlier, it is game changing. It's not just an evolution, but it's really a next major step forward to do things differently. >> Guys, great having you. >> Yup. >> We've got to go, We're going to take it back to Adam Burns in the studio. Thanks for watching.