>> Narrator: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in our Palo Alto Studios today, talking about a pretty interesting topic. You probably haven't heard of it, but you're going to know a lot of the attributes and it's going to sound very familiar. And that's BizOps, the concept of BizOps. We've heard about DevOps and DevSecOps and a whole bunch of ops, but BizOps is really a new twist and a new way to think about this. And we're excited to have the woman who actually wrote the book on the topic. She's Laureen Knudsen. She's a Chief Transformation Officer from Broadcom. She's also the co-author of the "Modern Business Management: Creating a Built-to-Change Organization", and a founding member of the BizOps Coalition. Laureen, great to see you. >> Great to be here. Thanks so much for having me. >> Absolutely. For people that aren't familiar with BizOps, give us kind of the quick high level. What is BizOps? >> BizOps is a new way of doing business. Just like Agile changed engineering and DevOps changed how we put things into production, BizOps is changing from soup to nuts. So from concept to cash or strategy to execution, right. There's a lot of... This has been talked about for a few years now, but this is formalizing that structure. So what do you need to do to truly have your strategy linked to your customer base? And so it's creating that umbrella over all of these other ops processes that brings it all together to tie the top to the bottom. >> Right. So, DevOps, right, fundamentally changed, the way the software gets developed. There used to be waterfall, it used to be data market's development document and then a product requirements document, then you put together a plan and you code it for six months or nine months, threw it over the Wall operations, and then hopefully they delivered. That doesn't happen anymore. And that was really set forth about 20 years ago when this kind of revolution happened on the software side. So what's been happening on the business side, and why now do they need their own ops to be pulled into this process? >> Well, sort of in the same way that things happened in the late 1990s, where certain organizations started to realize that that wasn't the most efficient way to create software and came together and created the Agile Manifesto. We've realized that there's certain things in doing business that make us much more effective and efficient. Things like bringing a data stream from the top to the bottom so every level of the organization has the data they need to run their business. Having that trust run throughout the organization, having that communication and that transparency from the strategy to the execution. You know, the global economy is just in dire straits right now, and the world is moving faster than ever. And so being able to respond to that change is vital at all levels of the organization. >> So you wrote the book years ago, I'm sure you've speaking to ton of business leaders, you know, as an author of the book, what were the biggest inhibitors to kind of the adoption of these ops and there must have been something, because why then did you found this coalition? What was the, you know, kind of the founding principle behind the coalition? >> Well, a bunch of industry leaders have come together to realize that in the same way that development needed to change in the early 2000s, really business needs to change today. And to your point, we've been talking about this for a while. Different companies are doing it better than others. And the ones that are doing this well are really heads and tails succeeding above the others. So, it's not easy though. It's not easy to change an entire organization and to change the way you do business. So, the coalition is bringing together some principles and values. We've come together to talk about how we're doing business differently and what actually works. And the main things you need to focus on in order to ensure success. >> Right. But you did it loud and proud with this declarative manifesto and then an event, actually, later this month that you're going to have to really unveil the manifesto, October 15th. I think it's 9:00, or excuse me, >> 11: 00 AM Eastern, 8:00 AM Pacific. Manifesto, right? Just the word manifesto, elicits all types of, kind of emotional response and really strong declarative statement of purpose and mission. So, why the manifesto and what's really the key pieces of the manifesto? >> You know, you need the principles that go along to help you change people, process and technology. And a lot of folks are focusing only on the technology and the data that comes from that technology and all that is key and vital to the way that you run your business differently. It's not the only piece. And so we need to focus on how do we get to bring the people along with us, how do we change our processes to be more efficient and effective. And the four values and the principles that we've created as this coalition, really help companies to do that more easily and to know they're on the right track, in the same way that the Agile principles and the values that brought out in the Agile Manifesto did. >> Right. So, I have a preview version here of the values. And I think it is really important for people to stay kind of fundamental values. 'Cause then everything builds from that and if there's ever a question, you can go back to the values as of a reference point. But just to read a few of, you know, business outcomes over individual projects, trust and collaboration over siloed teams and organizations, data-driven decisions over opinions and judgment calls, and finally, learn responded pivot over following a documented plan. And that seems so, right, so simple and so foundational and so fundamental to the way business works today. But the fact that you have to put this coalition together, and the fact that you're publishing this manifesto, tells me that the adoption really isn't where it should be. And this is really a new way to try to drive the adoption of these values. >> Absolutely. I mean, everybody seems to understand that they need to focus on their customers and that they need to focus on outcomes, but you can't just take something, you know, once you have work in progress and say, well, what's the value of this one piece of work. You have to have started at the beginning to come with the right outcome you're trying to meet, and then ensure that you're doing that all along the path to creating that and to bringing that to your customer base. It's focusing on your customers and creating the trust with your customers as well as through your organization. The data is really vital. Being able to run our businesses on real data and know the reality of the situation rather than at status reports that were created by people saying, yeah, I'm done, but there's no definition of done, right? It's fundamentally changing how we do business, which sounds easy. But as we know because of the Agile transformations that we've done and DevOps transformations that we've done, it's not as easy as it sounds. >> Right. So, why not just try to include more of the business people in the DevOps process? Why the strategy to have BizOps as kind of a standalone activity and again, to have the coalition and manifesto, that means it's super important. Can't the business people participate in the DevOps, or why has that not really been effective? >> It's really a different part of the business. And BizOps is a framework that pulls together all of these other operational pieces. So, security, operations, you know, how do you get something from engineering out to your customers, really were DevOps focuses, right? So, that's great. But running your business includes a lot more than your IT organization or your engineering teams. So this really expands out and brings in all of the rest of the business for how you sell software, how you plan, how you fund your teams, how you look at the work from that high strategic level and ensuring that you create that solid pipeline of data so that you truly know the status of any strategy in your organization. I was working with one group who had really good strategies and they had really good execution and they found that they spent over $100 million annually rolling up that data to try and understand the true status of their strategies. So companies are spending and are being very inefficient in, you know, they're spending millions of dollars on trying to do this link where if you just fundamentally change the way you do business a little bit, day to day, you can have that as a natural outcome of your processes. >> Right. 'Cause you've talked about on some of this stuff about using it as a way to do prioritization and to make sure you're not spending money places that you shouldn't. Another thing that strikes me as I go through the principles are, again, things that in 2020 should not be new information, you know, frequent changes, which was not part of the old paradigm. Trust and transparency. And I think you even tied it back into one of the articles I saw, tying trust and transparency really back to employee engagement, which then drives profitability and productivity. So I wonder if you can talk about the role of trust and in your conversations with people, as you've been kind of developing this idea over the years since the book, getting leaders to, you know, to trust their people, to do what that needs to be done rather than managing tasks, you know, manage the outcome, not manage tasks. >> Right. This is really important. Having trust in your organizations, especially today when everyone's remote, right? And in almost every company in the globe right now, most of their employees are working from their houses. You can't really do command and control well when no one is sitting in your building with you. So being able to have that trust to truly trust in your employees, you know, we spend a lot of money on all of these technical folks that we hire, and then we put people in place to try and direct them what to do on a daily basis. And so having... Building that trust within your organization, and it goes both ways, right? Employees need to trust the leadership, leadership needs to trust the employees, but it's not just from the top level to the end level, right? To the team level. It's actually every level in the middle. So this is truly pulling the pieces of work that we've done over the past few years through the entire organization. It's getting rid of what we call that frozen middle, of middle management and making sure that trust is aligned in there as well. And that the communication and transparency is working through that part of the organization. >> Right. Another principle I want to highlight is talking about the role of machine learning and artificial intelligence. Clearly, we all know, right, data's exploding, et cetera, et cetera, and we want to get the data driven decisions. But what this really calls out is that there's probably more data, both in terms of frequency and complexity, than people can really sift through, in terms of finding what they should be working on and what's important and what's not, you know, the classic separating the signal from the noise. I wonder if you can speak to a little bit about the role of machine learning and artificial intelligence, as an enhancer to productivity in this BizOps world versus a threat to people's jobs. >> Absolutely. I mean, like I said already that there's some companies spending $100 million rolling up data on things that computers can do today, even without machine learning and an AI. But when we put that into place, it really doesn't replace people any more than DevOps removed people from the organization. We automated a lot in testing yet we still have test organizations. It's just a different focus and a way of doing business. And this is no different. I'm seeing a lot of companies though start to try and throw all of their data together. And I've recently started saying that they're creating data land fields when they're attempting to create data lakes. And so you really need to understand your data that you're collecting and why you're collecting it and what outcomes you're trying to get from that data so that you can understand your business and you're not just creating, to your point, more noise. >> Right. So let's shift gears a little bit and talk about the event that's coming up on the 15th, about, you know, kind of, what is the role of the coalition? How should people get involved, what's membership all about, and then what can they expect to happen on the 15th? >> We have 10 industry leaders that have come together to author the BizOps Manifesto. And it's everyone from influencers, transformation experts, CEOs of a lot of companies or of organizations. We have people like Evan Leybourn of the Business Agility Institute and Sally Elatta from AgilityHealth, who have come to help author this and are really transformational leaders across the globe. And to get involved, you can go to bizopsmanifesto.org. and you can sign the manifesto. You can align to that if, you know, if you want to bring this into your own organization, we're happy to help work with that as well. So it's a group of industry leaders who are here to help the globe get more efficient and effective in how they do business. >> It's really interesting, right. It's not really an open source project, but it is kind of a co-opetition in terms of, you know, you're reaching out to lots of different companies and lots of different leaders to participate. They may or may not be competitive, but really this is more kind of an industry, kind of productivity thing, if you will, to bring all these people together at the coalition. Would that be accurate? >> It is accurate, but we're also looking to have competitors. I mean, we've... Competitors is an interesting thing today because there's no company just uses one company software, for example, to automate all of their pieces, right? There's all of these products that have to come together and share data today in the same way that we needed to share, you know, access to software. In the past, integrations were really difficult and now, you know, everyone's got open APIs. It's a very similar thing with data today. And so we are working with our competitors and we're working with, you know, like you said, industry leaders. We have Mik Kersten from Tasktop as part of this as well. We're looking at how we can benefit the companies of the world today, much more efficiently and effectively than we have in the past. So it is a group of people who compete with each other, maybe on a daily basis, but also have the same customers and have the need to help companies today, especially in this economy with the pandemic, right. There's a lot of companies in dire straits right now and we all need to come together as business leaders to help those companies get through this time. And anything that we can do to do that is going to benefit us all in the long run. >> Right. You know, it is really interesting co-opetition, is like you say, most companies have everybody's, you know, a lot of different products and people compete as well as having API connections and having all kinds of interesting relationships. So the lines are not so clean, like they used to be. And as we've seen with DevOps, you know, significant delta in the productivity and the responsiveness and the way software is delivered. So, sounds super exciting. We'll look forward to the event on the 15th. I give you the last word. What are you looking most forward to for the big launch in a couple of weeks? >> I'm really excited for people to give us their feedback on what they think and how this benefits them. And I'm excited to help our customers and help the, you know, the big companies of the world get through these next 18 months. I think we're all in for a bit more of a struggled time, you know, at a difficult time, and anything that we can all do to work together. So I'm looking forward to working with other industry leaders on this as well, and to the benefit of, you know, the global economy. >> Right. Well, great. Well, Laureen, thank you for giving us the one on one on BizOps. Really appreciate it. And best of luck to you and good luck to you and the team on the 15th. >> Thanks so much. >> Alrighty. Thank you. All right, she's Laureen, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music begins)

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas it's theCUBE! Covering AWS Reinvent 2017 presented by AWS, Intel, and our ecosystem of partners. >> And we are back live here in Las Vegas. We are at the Sands as Reinvent day two wraps up. AWS here for four days and we'll be here live again tomorrow, by the way on theCUBE continuing our coverage. We're wrapping up here today saving the best for last. No doubt about that. Stu Miniman and John Walls were joined by a couple of folks from SoftwareONE. Mike Gersten, immediately to my right. Global Innovation and Strategy. Mike, good to see you, sir. >> Yeah, likewise, thanks for having us. >> And Lawrence Schwartz on the far side there. The CMO at SoftwareONE, Lawrence, good to see you. >> Pleasure to see you again. >> Tell us a little bit, first off, about not only what you do but why you're here. >> Sure, yeah. So, SoftwareONE, we're in the business of making sure that people are spending the right amount of money on their software. Not too much, and you know making sure they're not underspending either. So all that optimization to spend. We also help customer implement their technology. We're at this show because we help customers do that in a Cloud environment so obviously natural to be at AWS. We help them do that on premise as well and we find a lot of our customers here. People we've been talking to for a long time. New people as well trying to move over. So it's a great environment for us. We kind of see what's going on in the innovation side from AWS too so... >> And so Mike, what do you make of the show in general. I'm just curious about your take, two day take. We've been here a couple of days. By now it's sunk in a little bit, I would think. >> It's incredible. You know, we were here last year and there was roughly 30,000 attendees. We're here again, there's over 45,000 attendees. I walk the floor here, I see dozens of providers that I didn't see here last year. Some of them are one guy with a six foot table, who's got some pretty interesting technology. So I would say that the pace with which this ecosystem is growing isn't showing any signs of slowing down. >> One of the things we've been hearing for a while is, boy, Amazon keeps innovating but it's been adding to complexity. The Amazon catalog itself, you know, 30,000 line items there. Then you add on top of that the marketplace and I'm like I'm pretty sure it's infinite at this point. And marketplace has been, you know, a huge driver in growth. I have to expect that marketplace impacted your business quite a bit in a good way, I would think. >> Yeah, for us that's probably one of the most exciting announcements that we've heard this week is around the marketplace specifically. We have a 30 year history selling software so to see now AWS taking what they did in the online retail business and in essence doing it for software in the marketplace is a good opportunity for us to connect our global catalog to their global catalog and provide a much wider range of software options for customers. >> And Mike, I wonder if I could... Can I ask you? Explain to our audience that might not have been in the keynote, gone to a break, what is it about this announcement that is so special from Amazon? So today they have about 4,000 or a little bit over 4,000 applications that sit in the marketplace and the idea is that any customer ought to be able to go up to the marketplace and with the click of a button, procure some software, have it put into a, maybe a reserved instance or some hosted infrastructure from Amazon and then be off to the races. No configuration, no support, no installation. >> Yeah, that was my tongue in cheek "so it's an infinite marketplace." >> It's an infinite-- >> As of today, right? Lawrence, one of the things we've been kind of wrestling with the last few years is this term, multi-Cloud. We hear an update from Andy every year as to how they look at it. Of course, I think it's, "everything is everything" is Amazon >> Right, right, yeah. and of course I think they've made an announcement about everything. And we still have a couple of days left. How are customers, you know, your customers looking at that multi Cloud, what are you seeing? Give us a little insight as to... and how does SoftwareONE help? >> Yeah, what's interesting for us is because that's what we see all the time, and we were talking about this a little bit beforehand and all of the customers that we have, we have tens of thousands of customers, we don't have any real conversations where people are talking about a single Cloud that they're working with, right. They're working with multiple. Maybe they're more in one today than another, but they're kind of looking at multiple solutions. So it's part of the business of what they do. And in a lot of cases it's just another extension of what's happening, you know, on premise today or in the data center. And so they always have to think about that. So, it's a part of it. There's lots of reasons for them to kind of go into that multi Cloud environment. Some of it might be for redundancy, some of it for flexibility on contracting. Some of it is for things like GDPR where they're worried about where their data sits and some of the local requirements. So it's part of the conversations that we always have and it's good to see some of the solutions that they're doing here where they think about that and they've really thought about how different ways customers can go in there and look at it, a really dispersed environment, so... >> So I mean how does the... In a multi Cloud world, I mean, how does that changing in terms of people optimizing their software, making these decisions that you're trying to steer, you're trying to advise them on. What's the impact that that's having kind of on what they're deciding to do going forward? >> There's a couple of things. First of all, I couldn't agree more with Lawrence. Tens of thousands of customers. I can't think of a time where I've talked to a customer that wasn't multi Cloud. So it's almost I would say all customers are multi Cloud. The challenge for our customers is how do you take all the different Cloud environments you're working with that use different vernacular, bring it into one system that then is using a common language to, you know, a common language around the resources that sit in those Cloud environments. A common language around how you map those resources to your organizational structure or how you manage your business. So that you're looking at your Cloud resources, you're planning for them financially but in the context of your business, using a common vernacular across all Cloud providers. That's a difficult thing to do if you're just going to a point solution from one of the publishers. >> And so why do that? I mean, why not simplify? Why not, why not just keep it in one environment or maybe two environment? Why branch out? Why take it to a different sphere? >> Well, I think, Lawrence touched on some of the reasons which is some of it's price Some of it is I've got legacy applications that don't work in one Cloud infrastructure but will work in another Cloud infrastructure. Some of it is security. Some of it is just simply I don't have any control over it. People are acquiring Cloud infrastructure via credit card within departments. You can't say, "You have to use Amazon "or you have to use Microsoft." You're not controlling that. >> You know we've talked before. SoftwareONE has a different legacy than say, what I'd say the Cloud management providers that are out there. But some of the things are very similar that you're attacking because everybody, I think, has identified this multi Cloud and it's the big elephant and everybody's trying to take bites out of it. Can you maybe give us a little bit of a compare contrast about... Think there's all these companies out there that start with Cloud and have one or two other words with them. How's SoftwareONE? What's similar and what's different? >> Yeah, I think when you look at that, there's certainly a lot of vendors here do a good job of starting to think about that. But a lot of vendors have started with the Cloud and kind of built around that and for companies that are born in the Cloud and that's all they focus on, that might be a great solution. But a lot of the enterprises that we deal with, our larger customers, that mix of what's on premise and what's in the Cloud, is still a minority is going to be in the Cloud. It is gonna be definitely less than 50 percent for a lot of the companies. Even smaller for some of the big places. So if you get really really good visibility, even in a multi Cloud environment, on only 20 or 30 percent of your environment, then you're not getting the whole big picture of what's happening, particularly on the expense side and where you're spending the money. So what we bring to the table that's a little bit unique here is we come from the history of doing this for many years on premise. We give a good visibility into what they're doing, how their assets are being utilized, giving them thoughts and contributions on how they price it and what they buy to it. So we give them that good view of on premise as well as what's happening in the Cloud. So now when they make decisions, they're getting that wholistic view. So marketing might come in there and they might have a software catalog that's part in Cloud and part of it's on premise. Their CRM might be on premise. So if they're looking at, What's my overall budget and spend there? How do I consolidate it? How do I make it better? You just can't look at the SAS applications and what's in the Cloud or what's in Amazon. You've really gotta get that full picture and that's what we can bring to bare. And the other thing is, a lot of the solutions that you see, a lot of the vendors are very focused on one particular country or environment. SoftwareONE is really spread out across the globe. We're in 80 plus countries. So when you're looking at okay, now I've gotta figure out who's buying whatever in Switzerland and the UK and the US, how do I simplify procurement for it? How do I get visibility across all of that? I'm prim in the Cloud. That becomes a much more complex question and those are the things that we can help enterprises with that's a little bit above and beyond what you might see on some of the kind of pure Cloud focused players. >> Mike, I had a interesting session I got to sit in with Amazon talking about how they are helping customers with innovation. And one of the things they put forth is, you know, companies have usually hundreds or thousands of applications but at least the premise they put forth is there's usually a handful of companies that are the strategic ones. There's maybe a next tier that are kind of important and then there's whole lots of other stuff. Maybe they're not all applications But they're putting out. But they're coming to Amazon and saying, "You're innovating. "You're moving fast. "How do we do that? "How do we help with the digital transformation?" How does SoftwareONE get involved in kind of the innovation, helping them along that journey? >> It's true that we work with over 9,000 publishers and I would say that the top seven or eight make up the lion's share of both our revenue and our customer's spend. However, if you take the what we call the tail end spend, if you take not just those top tier providers and not the middle tier but all of those small little applications they're using departmentally, they don't seem to add up to a lot when you look at them each department or each geography. When you bring them together for the enterprise, it's a large spend and it's very hard for our customers to get control of that. So when we talk about innovation, I would not suggest that you innovate just around the top five to 10 publishers. You have to be able to provide a cost management solution across the entire portfolio for customers, across the entire life cycle, that's on premises, that's multi Cloud, hybrid Cloud, and that's from acquisition through disposition and that includes the tail end spend. >> So is a lot of that when you give the visibility into the client as to what they're doing across the enterprise? They might not realize how deeply involved they are and that could give them leverage for pricing and then the lend. >> The best example is SAS Today, because SAS has enabled shadow IT in a way that we've never seen. Now people are just buying whatever application they want in their department with their credit card. Well, the IT department, the procurement department, the compliance group, they have no idea where that spend is coming from. They haven't discovered those unknown SAS subscriptions and you can't budget for it. You can't manage what you can't see. >> What's the shocker then? I mean, when you come in, just in general, to a business, what's the eye opening moment for them you think in terms of what you're uncovering or what you're showing them about their own process that you think they would know but you give them a little aha. >> Yeah, I think one example... we work with a lot of the companies, but one not that far from here. We work with LA Metro, the county and what they do there and on transportation. And they were looking at their environment and their spend in the Cloud and once we gave them our platform to kind of see what was going on, give them full visibility on what's happening with their VMs, what's happening in the Cloud, they saw that they're basically spending two to three X what they needed to before hand. Right before they really took a look, a good look at it. I think they were surprised by that, but it was a really good opportunity to take a good hard look at what VMs I might need to spend down, what ones do I need to throttle, what ones aren't being active, and again, you want to make sure you're right sized for what you're doing, instead of just over provisioning and kind of taking a guess at it if you will and overspending at the end of the day. >> Interestingly enough, just to add on to that, I was talking to a CIO that we work with maybe a month ago. We surveilled all of our customers on their spend. By and large, most of them know they're overspending on software. The estimates go anywhere between 25 and 35 percent, especially in the Cloud. But they know they're overspending. So some of them don't... they just can't solve the problem so they just budget for the overspend. So I was meeting with her and I said to her, "Do you know you're overspending?" She said, "Yeah, we're definitely overspending about 30%." I said, "What are you doing about that?" She says, "I just put it into my budget." I says, "That's crazy. Why wouldn't you want to solve that problem?" And the irony is that she's actually the CIO for a tax and accounting firm. (laughter) But they're just burying it. So, yeah. >> Yeah, that is funny. So, Andy Jassy did quite an extensive keynote. Lots of announcements. Kind of gave you the wild card. Something that jumped out at you, you wanna build on, any announcements or any pieces of Andy's presentation. >> Yeah, I think overall he kept talking about innovation and what they're doing. I think for us, we were talking a little bit about the marketplace. But you also see things they're doing on the database side. Are they strengthening aurora? Making post gray more attractive as an alternative to some of the legacy systems. And that complements well what we see as a migration and people wanna do, right. If you really strengthen the offering, it makes it more attractive and then certainly makes it interesting for the ecosystem which we're part of to help contribute that for people to move over there. I also really liked his analogy there. He kept going back to the musicians and kind of the relationship they have or thinking that compared to developers. Having all the instruments that you need to kind of build what you want and having that flexibility of choice and I think it's a great analogy. I think the flip side to that is: Hey, if you've got a jam session here and you're bringing in all of these different instruments: a guitar player, a tuba player, whatever it is to build this up, you also have to look at what do you have in house? You probably already have a pretty good size orchestra. Some of it might be legacy. Some people might be playing the harpsichord, the recorder, whatever it is. And you've got to figure out how does, In some cases, how do I blend that together? If I'm bringing them in, is it just for a jam session or do I need them here for a full set or for like a year long concert? And if you're not careful, you could end up spending a lot of money on bringing in all of these different players and I think that's an interesting way to think about this is it's great to have the flexibility but how do you make sure you have the visibility, the cost controls, so that doesn't overdo or overspend what you wanna do to get that creativity that you need. >> Everybody's gotta play in the same key too, right? Alright, let's all get on the same page Same page of music. >> So SoftwareONE is a global company. I know you both do a lot of travel. Give us kind of... We're here in the center of AWS. 43,000 devoted, super excited, passionate people but what are you seeing out there in the globe? Where does AWS specifically, Public Cloud in general, still need to push? What are some of the concerns, challenges, things that you see out there? >> Geographically? >> Yeah. >> Well, I mean certainly in APAC there's the challenge that any Cloud infrastructure provider is gonna face and that's Jolicloud. Jolicloud is a fairly dominant player in China and Japan, and they have a good presence throughout APAC. I think that AWS is making strong strides in Asia. Clearly the market leader worldwide. Everybody is chasing them. With over a thousand features and enhancements announced just within the last year, the pricing changes happening at such rapid fire that I think it's difficult for the other guys to keep up with them. So I'd say there's no question they're the market leader globally. Asia Pacific is probably their biggest challenge. >> Lawrence? >> I concur with a lot of that. I mean, we've seen in our own company a lot of activities starting in India and even in South America. Some good relationships with AWS. Some early adoption there. But yeah, I think those comments on APAC, I think you've got some good experiences there. >> Well, gentlemen, thanks for joining us. We appreciate the time here on theCUBE. Good luck with the rest of the show and I'll be kind of curious to see where this goes. The vibe is good, right? >> The vibe's unbelievable. >> Fantastic. >> And you've got a big runway so good luck with that. >> Thank you. >> Alright. >> Alright gentlemen. That's it for our coverage here on theCUBE. Today, day two here at Reinvent. Back with more live tomorrow morning 11:00 Pacific time. We'll be with you 2:00 on the East Coast and we'll see you right here. Until then have a good night. (upbeat music)