we're running what i would call a little mini series and we're exploring the convergence of file and object storage what are the key trends why would you want to converge file an object what are the use cases and architectural considerations and importantly what are the business drivers of uffo so-called unified fast file and object in this program you'll hear from matt burr who is the gm of pure's flashblade business and then we'll bring in the perspectives of a solutions architect garrett belsner who's from cdw and then the analyst angle with scott sinclair of the enterprise strategy group esg he'll share some cool data on our power panel and then we'll wrap with a really interesting technical conversation with chris bond cb bond who is a lead data architect at microfocus and he's got a really cool use case to share with us so sit back and enjoy the program from around the globe it's thecube presenting the convergence of file and object brought to you by pure storage we're back with the convergence of file and object a special program made possible by pure storage and co-created with the cube so in this series we're exploring that convergence between file and object storage we're digging into the trends the architectures and some of the use cases for unified fast file and object storage uffo with me is matt burr who's the vice president and general manager of flashblade at pure storage hello matt how you doing i'm doing great morning dave how are you good thank you hey let's start with a little 101 you know kind of the basics what is unified fast file and object yeah so look i mean i think you got to start with first principles talking about the rise of unstructured data so um when we think about unstructured data you sort of think about the projections 80 of data by 2025 is going to be unstructured data whether that's machine generated data or um you know ai and ml type workloads uh you start to sort of see this um i don't want to say it's a boom uh but it's sort of a renaissance for unstructured data if you will we move away from you know what we've traditionally thought of as general purpose nas and and file shares to you know really things that focus on uh fast object taking advantage of s3 cloud native applications that need to integrate with applications on site um you know ai workloads ml workloads tend to look to share data across you know multiple data sets and you really need to have a platform that can deliver both highly performant and scalable fast file and object from one system so talk a little bit more about some of the drivers that you know bring forth that need to unify file an object yeah i mean look you know there's a there's there's a real challenge um in managing you know bespoke uh bespoke infrastructure or architectures around general purpose nas and daz etc so um if you think about how a an architect sort of looks at an application they might say well okay i need to have um you know fast daz storage proximal to the application um but that's going to require a tremendous amount of dams which is a tremendous amount of drives right hard drives are you know historically pretty pretty pretty unwieldy to manage because you're replacing them relatively consistently at multi-petabyte scale um so you start to look at things like the complexity of daz you start to look at the complexity of general purpose nas and you start to just look at quite frankly something that a lot of people don't really want to talk about anymore but actual data center space right like consolidation matters the ability to take you know something that's the size of a microwave like a modern flash blade or a modern um you know uffo device uh replaces something that might be you know the size of three or four or five refrigerators so matt what why is is now the right time for this i mean for years nobody really paid much attention to object s3 already obviously changed you know that course most of the world's data is still stored in file formats and you get there with nfs or smb why is now the time to think about unifying object and file well because we're moving to things like a contactless society um you know the the things that we're going to do are going to just require a tremendous amount more compute power network um and quite frankly storage throughput and you know i can give you two sort of real primary examples here right you know warehouses are being you know taken over by robots if you will um it's not a war it's a it's a it's sort of a friendly advancement in you know how do i how do i store a box in a warehouse and you know we have we have a customer who focuses on large sort of big box distribution warehousing and you know a box that carried a an object two weeks ago might have a different box size two weeks later well that robot needs to know where the space is in the data center in order to put it but also needs to be able to process hey i don't want to put the thing that i'm going to access the most in the back of the warehouse i'm going to put that thing in the front of the warehouse all of those types of data you know sort of real time you can think of the robot as almost an edge device is processing in real time unstructured data in its object right so it's sort of the emergence of these new types of workloads and i give you the opposite example the other end of the spectrum is ransomware right you know today you know we'll talk to customers and they'll say quite commonly hey if you know anybody can sell me a backup device i need something that can restore quickly um if you had the ability to restore something in 270 terabytes an hour or 250 terabytes an hour uh that's much faster when you're dealing with a ransomware attack you want to get your data back quickly you know so i want to add i was going to ask you about that later but since you brought it up what is the right i guess call it architecture for for for ransomware i mean how and explain like how unified object and file which appointment i get the fast recovery but how how would you recommend a customer uh go about architecting a ransomware proof you know system yeah well you know with with flashblade and and with flasharray there's an actual feature called called safe mode and that safe mode actually protects uh the snapshots and and the data from uh sort of being a part of the of the ransomware event and so if you're in a type of ransomware situation like this you're able to leverage safe mode and you say okay what happens in a ransomware attack is you can't get access to your data and so you know the bad guy the perpetrator is basically saying hey i'm not going to give you access to your data until you pay me you know x in bitcoin or whatever it might be right um with with safe mode those snapshots are actually protected outside of the ransomware blast zone and you can bring back those snapshots because what's your alternative if you're not doing something like that your alternative is either to pay and unlock your data or you have to start retouring restoring excuse me from tape or slow disk that could take you days or weeks to get your data back so leveraging safe mode um you know in either the flash for the flash blade product uh is a great way to go about architecting against ransomware i got to put my my i'm thinking like a customer now so safe mode so that's an immutable mode right can't change the data um is it can can an administrator go in and change that mode can you turn it off do i still need an air gap for example what would you recommend there yeah so there there are still um uh you know sort of our back or roll back role-based access control policies uh around who can access that safe mode and who can right okay so uh anyway subject for a different day i want to i want to actually bring up uh if you don't object a topic that i think used to be really front and center and it now be is becoming front and center again i mean wikibon just produced a research note forecasting the future of flash and hard drives and those of you who follow us know we've done this for quite some time and you can if you could bring up the chart here you you could and we see this happening again it was originally we forecast the the the death of of quote-unquote high spin speed disc drives which is kind of an oxymoron but you can see on here on this chart this hard disk had a magnificent journey but they peaked in volume in manufacturing volume in 2010 and the reason why that is is so important is that volumes now are steadily dropping you can see that and we use wright's law to explain why this is a problem and wright's law essentially says that as you your cumulative manufacturing volume doubles your cost to manufacture decline by a constant percentage now i won't go too much detail on that but suffice it to say that flash volumes are growing very rapidly hdd volumes aren't and so flash because of consumer volumes can take advantage of wright's law and that constant reduction and that's what's really important for the next generation which is always more expensive to build uh and so this kind of marks the beginning of the end matt what do you think what what's the future hold for spinning disc in your view uh well i can give you the answer on two levels on a personal level uh it's why i come to work every day uh you know the the eradication or or extinction of an inefficient thing um you know i like to say that uh inefficiency is the bane of my existence uh and i think hard drives are largely inefficient and i'm willing to accept the sort of long-standing argument that um you know we've seen this transition in block right and we're starting to see it repeat itself in in unstructured data and i'm going to accept the argument that cost is a vector here and it most certainly is right hdds have been considerably cheaper uh than than than flash storage um you know even to this day uh you know up up to this point right but we're starting to approach the point where you sort of reach a a 3x sort of um you know differentiator between the cost of an hdd and an std and you know that really is that point in time when uh you begin to pick up a lot of volume and velocity and so you know that tends to map directly to you know what you're seeing here which is you know a a slow decline uh which i think is going to become even more rapid kind of probably starting around next year um where you start to see sds excuse me ssds uh you know really replacing hdds uh at a much more rapid clip particularly on the unstructured data side and it's largely around cost the the workloads that we talked about robots and warehouses or you know other types of advanced machine learning and artificial intelligence type applications and workflows you know they require a degree of performance that a hard drive just can't deliver we are we are seeing sort of the um creative innovative uh disruption of an entire industry right before our eyes it's a fun thing to live through yeah and and we would agree i mean it doesn't the premise there is that it doesn't have to be less expensive we think it will be by you know the second half or early second half of this decade but even if it's a we think around a 3x delta the value of of ssd relative to spinning disk is going to overwhelm just like with your laptop you know it got to the point where you said why would i ever have a spinning disc in my laptop we see the same thing happening here um and and so and we're talking about you know raw capacity you know put in compression and d-dupe and everything else that you really can't do with spinning discs because of the performance issues you can do with flash okay let's come back to uffo can we dig into the challenges specifically that that this solves for customers give me give us some examples yeah so you know i mean if we if we think about the examples um you know the the robotic one um i think is is is the one that i think is the marker for you know kind of of of the the modern side of of of what we see here um but what we're you know what we're what we're seeing from a trend perspective which you know not everybody's deploying robots right um you know there's there's many companies that are you know that aren't going to be in either the robotic business uh or or even thinking about you know sort of future type oriented type things but what they are doing is green field applications are being built on object um generally not on not on file and and not on block and so you know the rise of of object as sort of the the sort of let's call it the the next great protocol for um you know for uh for for modern workloads right this is this is that that modern application coming to the forefront and that could be anything from you know financial institutions you know right down through um you we've even see it and seen it in oil and gas uh we're also seeing it across across healthcare uh so you know as as as companies take the opportunity as industries to take this opportunity to modernize you know they're modernizing not on things that are are leveraging you know um you know sort of archaic disk technology they're they're they're really focusing on on object but they still have file workflows that they need to that they need to be able to support and so having the ability to be able to deliver those things from one device in a capacity orientation or a performance orientation uh while at the same time dramatically simplifying uh the overall administration of your environment both physically and non-physically is a key driver so the great thing about object is it's simple it's a kind of a get put metaphor um it's it scales out you know because it's got metadata associated with the data uh and and it's cheap uh the drawback is you don't necessarily associate it with high performance and and and as well most applications don't you know speak in that language they speak in the language of file you know or as you mentioned block so i i see real opportunities here if i have some some data that's not necessarily frequently accessed you know every day but yet i want to then whether end of quarter or whatever it is i want to i want to or machine learning i want to apply some ai to that data i want to bring it in and then apply a file format uh because for performance reasons is that right maybe you could unpack that a little bit yeah so um you know we see i mean i think you described it well right um but i don't think object necessarily has to be slow um and nor does it have to be um you know because when you think about you brought up a good point with metadata right being able to scale to a billions of objects being able to scale to billions of objects excuse me is of value right um and i think people do traditionally associate object with slow but it's not necessarily slow anymore right we we did a sort of unofficial survey of of of our of our customers and our employee base and when people described object they thought of it as like law firms and storing a word doc if you will um and that that's just you know i think that there's a lack of understanding or a misnomer around what modern what modern object has become and perform an object particularly at scale when we're talking about billions of objects you know that's the next frontier right um is it at pace performance wise with you know the other protocols no uh but it's making leaps and grounds so you talked a little bit more about some of the verticals that you see i mean i think when i think of financial services i think transaction processing but of course they have a lot of tons of unstructured data are there any patterns you're seeing by by vertical market um we're you know we're not that's the interesting thing um and you know um as a as a as a as a company with a with a block heritage or a block dna those patterns were pretty easy to spot right there were a certain number of databases that you really needed to support oracle sql some postgres work et cetera then kind of the modern databases around cassandra and things like that you knew that there were going to be vmware environments you know you could you could sort of see the trends and where things were going unstructured data is such a broader horizontal thing right so you know inside of oil and gas for example you have you know um you have specific applications and bespoke infrastructures for those applications um you know inside of media entertainment you know the same thing the the trend that we're seeing the commonality that we're seeing is the modernization of you know object as a starting point for all the all the net new workloads within within those industry verticals right that's the most common request we see is what's your object roadmap what's your you know what's your what's your object strategy you know where do you think where do you think object is going so um there isn't any um you know sort of uh there's no there's no path uh it's really just kind of a wide open field in front of us with common requests across all industries so the amazing thing about pure just as a kind of a little you know quasi you know armchair historian the industry is pure was really the only company in many many years to be able to achieve escape velocity break through a billion dollars i mean three part couldn't do it isilon couldn't do it compellent couldn't do it i could go on but pure was able to achieve that as an independent company and so you become a leader you look at the gartner magic quadrant you're a leader in there i mean if you've made it this far you've got to have some chops and so of course it's very competitive there are a number of other storage suppliers that have announced products that unify object and file so i'm interested in how pure differentiates why pure um it's a great question um and it's one that uh you know having been a long time puritan uh you know i take pride in answering um and it's actually a really simple answer um it's it's business model innovation and technology right the the technology that goes behind how we do what we do right and i don't mean the product right innovation is product but having a better support model for example um or having on the business model side you know evergreen storage right where we sort of look at your relationship to us as a subscription right um you know we're going to sort of take the thing that that you've had and we're going to modernize that thing in place over time such that you're not rebuying that same you know terabyte or you know petabyte of storage that you've that you that you've paid for over time so um you know sort of three legs of the stool uh that that have made you know pure clearly differentiated i think the market has has recognized that um you're right it's it's hard to break through to a billion dollars um but i look forward to the day that you know we we have two billion dollar products and i think with uh you know that rise in in unstructured data growing to 80 by 2025 and you know the massive transition that you know you guys have noted in in in your hdd slide i think it's a huge opportunity for us on you know the other unstructured data side of the house you know the other thing i'd add matt i've talked to cause about this is is it's simplicity first i've asked them why don't you do this why don't you do it and the answer is always the same is that adds complexity and we we put simplicity for the customer ahead of everything else and i think that served you very very well what about the economics of of unified file an object i mean if you bring in additional value presumably there's a there there's a cost to that but there's got to be also a business case behind it what kind of impact have you seen uh with customers yeah i mean look i'll i'll i'll go back to something i mentioned earlier which is just the reclamation of floor space and power and cooling right um you know there's a you know there's people people people want to search for kind of the the sexier element if you will when it comes to looking at how we how you derive value from something but the reality is if you're reducing your power consumption by you know by by a material percentage power bills matter in big in big data centers um you know customers typically are are facing you know a paradigm of well i i want to go to the cloud but you know the clouds are not being more expensive than i thought it was going to be or you know i figured out what i can use in the cloud i thought it was going to be everything but it's not going to be everything so hybrid's where we're landing but i want to be out of the data center business and i don't want to have a team of 20 storage people to match you know to administer my storage um you know so there's sort of this this very tangible value around you know hey if i could manage um you know multiple petabytes with one full-time engineer uh because the system uh to yoran kaz's point was radically simpler to administer didn't require someone to be running around swapping drives all the time would that be a value the answer is yes 100 of the time right and then you start to look at okay all right well on the uffo side from a product perspective hey if i have to manage a you know bespoke environment for this application if i have to manage a bespoke environment for this application and a bespoke environment for this application and this book environment for this application i'm managing four different things and can i actually share data across those four different things there's ways to share data but most customers it just gets too complex how do you even know what your what your gold.master copy is of data if you have it in four different places or you try to have it in four different places and it's four different siloed infrastructures so when you get to the sort of the side of you know how do we how do you measure value in uffo it's actually being able to have all of that data concentrated in one place so that you can share it from application to application got it i'm interested we use a couple minutes left i'm interested in the the update on flashblade you know generally but also i have a specific question i mean look getting file right is hard enough uh you just announced smb support for flashblade i'm interested in you know how that fits in i think it's kind of obvious with file and object converging but give us the update on on flashblade and maybe you could address that specific question yeah so um look i mean we're we're um you know tremendously excited about the growth of flashblade uh you know we we we found workloads we never expected to find um you know the rapid restore workload was one that was actually brought to us from from from a customer actually and has become you know one of our one of our top two three four you know workloads so um you know we're really happy with the trend we've seen in it um and you know mapping back to you know thinking about hdds and ssds you know we're well on a path to building a billion dollar business here so you know we're very excited about that um but to your point you know you don't just snap your fingers and get there right um you know we've learned that doing file and object uh is is harder than block um because there's more things that you have to go do for one you're basically focused on three protocols s b nfs and s3 not necessarily in that order um but to your point about smb uh you know we we are uh on the path through to releasing um you know smb uh full full native smb support in in the system that will allow us to uh service customers we have a limitation with some customers today where they'll have an s b portion of their nfs workflow um and we do great on the nfs side um but you know we didn't we didn't have the ability to plug into the s p component of their workflow so that's going to open up a lot of opportunity for us um on on that front um and you know we continue to you know invest significantly across the board in in areas like security which is you know become more than just a hot button you know today security's always been there but it feels like it's blazing hot today um and so you know going through the next couple years we'll be looking at uh you know developing some some um you know pretty material security elements of the product as well so uh well on a path to a billion dollars is the net on that and uh you know we're we're fortunate to have have smb here and we're looking forward to introducing that to to those customers that have you know nfs workloads today with an s p component yeah nice tailwind good tam expansion strategy matt thanks so much really appreciate you coming on the program we appreciate you having us and uh thanks much dave good to see you [Music] okay we're back with the convergence of file and object in a power panel this is a special content program made possible by pure storage and co-created with the cube now in this series what we're doing is we're exploring the coming together of file and object storage trying to understand the trends that are driving this convergence the architectural considerations that users should be aware of and which use cases make the most sense for so-called unified fast file in object storage and with me are three great guests to unpack these issues garrett belsner is the data center solutions architect he's with cdw scott sinclair is a senior analyst at enterprise strategy group he's got deep experience on enterprise storage and brings that independent analyst perspective and matt burr is back with us gentlemen welcome to the program thank you hey scott let me let me start with you uh and get your perspective on what's going on the market with with object the cloud a huge amount of unstructured data out there that lives in files give us your independent view of the trends that you're seeing out there well dave you know where to start i mean surprise surprise date is growing um but one of the big things that we've seen is we've been talking about data growth for what decades now but what's really fascinating is or changed is because of the digital economy digital business digital transformation whatever you call it now people are not just storing data they actually have to use it and so we see this in trends like analytics and artificial intelligence and what that does is it's just increasing the demand for not only consolidation of massive amounts of storage that we've seen for a while but also the demand for incredibly low latency access to that storage and i think that's one of the things that we're seeing that's driving this need for convergence as you put it of having multiple protocols consolidated onto one platform but also the need for high performance access to that data thank you for that a great setup i got like i wrote down three topics that we're going to unpack as a result of that so garrett let me let me go to you maybe you can give us the perspective of what you see with customers is is this is this like a push where customers are saying hey listen i need to converge my file and object or is it more a story where they're saying garrett i have this problem and then you see unified file and object as a solution yeah i think i think for us it's you know taking that consultative approach with our customers and really kind of hearing pain around some of the pipelines the way that they're going to market with data today and kind of what are the problems that they're seeing we're also seeing a lot of the change driven by the software vendors as well so really being able to support a disaggregated design where you're not having to upgrade and maintain everything as a single block has really been a place where we've seen a lot of customers pivot to where they have more flexibility as they need to maintain larger volumes of data and higher performance data having the ability to do that separate from compute and cache and those other layers are is really critical so matt i wonder if if you could you know follow up on that so so gary was talking about this disaggregated design so i like it you know distributed cloud etc but then we're talking about bringing things together in in one place right so square that circle how does this fit in with this hyper-distributed cloud edge that's getting built out yeah you know i mean i i could give you the easy answer on that but i could also pass it back to garrett in the sense that you know garrett maybe it's important to talk about um elastic and splunk and some of the things that you're seeing in in that world and and how that i think the answer to dave's question i think you can give you can give a pretty qualified answer relative what your customers are seeing oh that'd be great please yeah absolutely no no problem at all so you know i think with um splunk kind of moving from its traditional design and classic design whatever you want you want to call it up into smart store um that was kind of one of the first that we saw kind of make that move towards kind of separating object out and i think you know a lot of that comes from their own move to the cloud and updating their code to basically take advantage of object object in the cloud uh but we're starting to see you know with like vertica eon for example um elastic other folks taking that same type of approach where in the past we were building out many 2u servers we were jamming them full of uh you know ssds and nvme drives that was great but it doesn't really scale and it kind of gets into that same problem that we see with you know hyper convergence a little bit where it's you know you're all you're always adding something maybe that you didn't want to add um so i think it you know again being driven by software is really kind of where we're seeing the world open up there but that whole idea of just having that as a hub and a central place where you can then leverage that out to other applications whether that's out to the edge for machine learning or ai applications to take advantage of it i think that's where that convergence really comes back in but i think like scott mentioned earlier it's really folks are now doing things with the data where before i think they were really storing it trying to figure out what are we going to actually do with it when we need to do something with it so this is making it possible yeah and dave if i could just sort of tack on to the end of garrett's answer there you know in particular vertica with neon mode the ability to leverage sharded subclusters give you um you know sort of an advantage in terms of being able to isolate performance hot spots you an advantage to that is being able to do that on a flashblade for example so um sharded subclusters allow you to sort of say i'm you know i'm going to give prioritization to you know this particular element of my application and my data set but i can still share those share that data across those across those subclusters so um you know as you see you know vertica advance with eon mode or you see splunk advance with with smart store you know these are all sort of advancements that are you know it's a chicken in the egg thing um they need faster storage they need you know sort of a consolidated data storage data set um and and that's what sort of allows these things to drive forward yeah so vertica eon mode for those who don't know it's the ability to separate compute and storage and scale independently i think i think vertica if they're if they're not the only one they're one of the only ones i think they might even be the only one that does that in the cloud and on-prem and that sort of plays into this distributed you know nature of this hyper-distributed cloud i sometimes call it and and i'm interested in the in the data pipeline and i wonder scott if we could talk a little bit about that maybe we're unified object and file i mean i'm envisioning this this distributed mesh and then you know uffo is sort of a node on that that i i can tap when i need it but but scott what are you seeing as the state of infrastructure as it relates to the data pipeline and the trends there yeah absolutely dave so when i think data pipeline i immediately gravitate to analytics or or machine learning initiatives right and so one of the big things we see and this is it's an interesting trend it seems you know we continue to see increased investment in ai increased interest and people think and as companies get started they think okay well what does that mean well i got to go hire a data scientist okay well that data scientist probably needs some infrastructure and what they end what often happens in these environments is where it ends up being a bespoke environment or a one-off environment and then over time organizations run into challenges and one of the big challenges is the data science team or people whose jobs are outside of it spend way too much time trying to get the infrastructure to to keep up with their demands and predominantly around data performance so one of the one of the ways organizations that especially have artificial intelligence workloads in production and we found this in our research have started mitigating that is by deploying flash all across the data pipeline we have we have data on this sorry interrupt but yeah if you could bring up that that chart that would be great um so take us through this uh uh scott and share with us what we're looking at here yeah absolutely so so dave i'm glad you brought this up so we did this study um i want to say late last year uh one of the things we looked at was across artificial intelligence environments now one thing that you're not seeing on this slide is we went through and we asked all around the data pipeline and we saw flash everywhere but i thought this was really telling because this is around data lakes and when when or many people think about the idea of a data lake they think about it as a repository it's a place where you keep maybe cold data and what we see here is especially within production environments a pervasive use of flash storage so i think that 69 of organizations are saying their data lake is mostly flash or all flash and i think we have zero percent that don't have any flash in that environment so organizations are finding out that they that flash is an essential technology to allow them to harness the value of their data so garrett and then matt i wonder if you could chime in as well we talk about digital transformation and i sometimes call it you know the coveted forced march to digital transformation and and i'm curious as to your perspective on things like machine learning and the adoption and scott you may have a perspective on this as well you know we had to pivot we had to get laptops we had to secure the end points you know and vdi those became super high priorities what happened to you know injecting ai into my applications and and machine learning did that go in the back burner was that accelerated along with the need to digitally transform garrett i wonder if you could share with us what you saw with with customers last year yeah i mean i think we definitely saw an acceleration um i think folks are in in my market are still kind of figuring out how they inject that into more of a widely distributed business use case but again this data hub and allowing folks to now take advantage of this data that they've had in these data lakes for a long time i agree with scott i mean many of the data lakes that we have were somewhat flash accelerated but they were typically really made up of you know large capacity slower spinning near-line drive accelerated with some flash but i'm really starting to see folks now look at some of those older hadoop implementations and really leveraging new ways to look at how they consume data and many of those redesigned customers are coming to us wanting to look at all flash solutions so we're definitely seeing it we're seeing an acceleration towards folks trying to figure out how to actually use it in more of a business sense now or before i feel it goes a little bit more skunk works kind of people dealing with uh you know in a much smaller situation maybe in the executive offices trying to do some testing and things scott you're nodding away anything you can add in here yeah so first off it's great to get that confirmation that the stuff we're seeing in our research garrett's seeing you know out in the field and in the real world um but you know as it relates to really the past year it's been really fascinating so one of the things we study at esg is i.t buying intentions what are things what are initiatives that companies plan to invest in and at the beginning of 2020 we saw a heavy interest in machine learning initiatives then you transition to the middle of 2020 in the midst of covid some organizations continued on that path but a lot of them had the pivot right how do we get laptops to everyone how do we continue business in this new world well now as we enter into 2021 and hopefully we're coming out of this uh you know the pandemic era um we're getting into a world where organizations are pivoting back towards these strategic investments around how do i maximize the usage of data and actually accelerating those because they've seen the importance of of digital business initiatives over the past year yeah matt i mean when we exited 2019 we saw a narrowing of experimentation and our premise was you know that that organizations are going to start now operationalizing all their digital transformation experiments and and then we had a you know 10 month petri dish on on digital so what do you what are you seeing in this regard a 10 month petri dish is an interesting way to interesting way to describe it um you know we saw another there's another there's another candidate for pivot in there around ransomware as well right um you know security entered into the mix which took people's attention away from some of this as well i mean look i'd like to bring this up just a level or two um because what we're actually talking about here is progress right and and progress isn't is an inevitability um you know whether it's whether whether you believe that it's by 2025 or you or you think it's 2035 or 2050 it doesn't matter we're on a forced march to the eradication of disk and that is happening in many ways uh you know in many ways um due to some of the things that garrett was referring to and what scott was referring to in terms of what are customers demands for how they're going to actually leverage the data that they have and that brings me to kind of my final point on this which is we see customers in three phases there's the first phase where they say hey i have this large data store and i know there's value in there i don't know how to get to it or i have this large data store and i've started a project to get value out of it and we failed those could be customers that um you know marched down the hadoop path early on and they they got some value out of it um but they realized that you know hdfs wasn't going to be a modern protocol going forward for any number of reasons you know the first being hey if i have gold.master how do i know that i have gold.4 is consistent with my gold.master so data consistency matters and then you have the sort of third group that says i have these large data sets i know how to extract value from them and i'm already on to the verticas the elastics you know the splunks etc um i think those folks are the folks that that ladder group are the folks that kept their their their projects going because they were already extracting value from them the first two groups we we're seeing sort of saying the second half of this year is when we're going to begin really being picking up on these on these types of initiatives again well thank you matt by the way for for hitting the escape key because i think value from data really is what this is all about and there are some real blockers there that i kind of want to talk about you mentioned hdfs i mean we were very excited of course in the early days of hadoop many of the concepts were profound but at the end of the day it was too complicated we've got these hyper-specialized roles that are that are you know serving the business but it still takes too long it's it's too hard to get value from data and one of the blockers is infrastructure that the complexity of that infrastructure really needs to be abstracted taking up a level we're starting to see this in in cloud where you're seeing some of those abstraction layers being built from some of the cloud vendors but more importantly a lot of the vendors like pew are saying hey we can do that heavy lifting for you uh and we you know we have expertise in engineering to do cloud native so i'm wondering what you guys see uh maybe garrett you could start us off and other students as some of the blockers uh to getting value from data and and how we're going to address those in the coming decade yeah i mean i i think part of it we're solving here obviously with with pure bringing uh you know flash to a market that traditionally was utilizing uh much slower media um you know the other thing that i that i see that's very nice with flashblade for example is the ability to kind of do things you know once you get it set up a blade at a time i mean a lot of the things that we see from just kind of more of a you know simplistic approach to this like a lot of these teams don't have big budgets and being able to kind of break them down into almost a blade type chunk i think has really kind of allowed folks to get more projects and and things off the ground because they don't have to buy a full expensive system to run these projects so that's helped a lot i think the wider use cases have helped a lot so matt mentioned ransomware you know using safe mode as a place to help with ransomware has been a really big growth spot for us we've got a lot of customers very interested and excited about that and the other thing that i would say is bringing devops into data is another thing that we're seeing so kind of that push towards data ops and really kind of using automation and infrastructure as code as a way to now kind of drive things through the system the way that we've seen with automation through devops is really an area we're seeing a ton of growth with from a services perspective guys any other thoughts on that i mean we're i'll tee it up there we are seeing some bleeding edge which is somewhat counterintuitive especially from a cost standpoint organizational changes at some some companies uh think of some of the the the internet companies that do uh music uh for instance and adding podcasts etc and those are different data products we're seeing them actually reorganize their data architectures to make them more distributed uh and actually put the domain heads the business heads in charge of the the data and the data pipeline and that is maybe less efficient but but it's again some of these bleeding edge what else are you guys seeing out there that might be yes some harbingers of the next decade uh i'll go first um you know i think specific to um the the construct that you threw out dave one of the things that we're seeing is um you know the the application owner maybe it's the devops person but it's you know maybe it's it's it's the application owner through the devops person they're they're becoming more technical in their understanding of how infrastructure um interfaces with their with their application i think um you know what what we're seeing on the flashblade side is we're having a lot more conversations with application people than um just i.t people it doesn't mean that the it people aren't there the it people are still there for sure they have to deliver the service etc um but you know the days of of i.t you know building up a catalog of services and a business owner subscribing to one of those services you know picking you know whatever sort of fits their need um i don't think that constru i think that's the construct that changes going forward the application owner is becoming much more prescriptive about what they want the infrastructure to fit how they want the infrastructure to fit into their application and that's a big change and and for for um you know certainly folks like like garrett and cdw um you know they do a good job with this being able to sort of get to the application owner and bring those two sides together there's a tremendous amount of value there for us it's been a little bit of a retooling we've traditionally sold to the i.t side of the house and um you know we've had to teach ourselves how to go talk the language of of applications so um you know i think you pointed out a good a good a good construct there and and you know that that application owner taking playing a much bigger role in what they're expecting uh from the performance of it infrastructure i think is is is a key is a key change interesting i mean that definitely is a trend that's put you guys closer to the business where the the infrastructure team is is serving the business as opposed to sometimes i talk to data experts and they're frustrated uh especially data owners or or data product builders who are frustrated that they feel like they have to beg beg the the data pipeline team to get you know new data sources or get data out how about the edge um you know maybe scott you can kick us off i mean we're seeing you know the emergence of edge use cases ai inferencing at the edge a lot of data at the edge what are you seeing there and and how does this unified object i'll bring us back to that and file fit wow dave how much time do we have um two minutes first of all scott why don't you why don't you just tell everybody what the edge is yeah you got it figured out all right how much time do you have matt at the end of the day and that that's that's a great question right is if you take a step back and i think it comes back today of something you mentioned it's about extracting value from data and what that means is when you extract value from data what it does is as matt pointed out the the influencers or the users of data the application owners they have more power because they're driving revenue now and so what that means is from an i.t standpoint it's not just hey here are the services you get use them or lose them or you know don't throw a fit it is no i have to i have to adapt i have to follow what my application owners mean now when you bring that back to the edge what it means is is that data is not localized to the data center i mean we just went through a nearly 12-month period where the entire workforce for most of the companies in this country had went distributed and business continued so if business is distributed data is distributed and that means that means in the data center that means at the edge that means that the cloud that means in all other places in tons of places and what it also means is you have to be able to extract and utilize data anywhere it may be and i think that's something that we're going to continue to and continue to see and i think it comes back to you know if you think about key characteristics we've talked about things like performance and scale for years but we need to start rethinking it because on one hand we need to get performance everywhere but also in terms of scale and this ties back to some of the other initiatives and getting value from data it's something i call that the massive success problem one of the things we see especially with with workloads like machine learning is businesses find success with them and as soon as they do they say well i need about 20 of these projects now all of a sudden that overburdens it organizations especially across across core and edge and cloud environments and so when you look at environments ability to meet performance and scale demands wherever it needs to be is something that's really important you know so dave i'd like to um just sort of tie together sort of two things that um i think that i heard from scott and garrett that i think are important and it's around this concept of scale um you know some of us are old enough to remember the day when kind of a 10 terabyte blast radius was too big of a blast radius for people to take on or a terabyte of storage was considered to be um you know an exemplary budget environment right um now we sort of think as terabytes kind of like we used to think of as gigabytes in some ways um petabyte like you don't have to explain anybody what a petabyte is anymore um and you know what's on the horizon and it's not far are our exabyte type data set workloads um and you start to think about what could be in that exabyte of data we've talked about how you extract that value we've talked about sort of um how you start but if the scale is big not everybody's going to start at a petabyte or an exabyte to garrett's point the ability to start small and grow into these products or excuse me these projects i think a is a really um fundamental concept here because you're not going to just go by i'm going to kick off a five petabyte project whether you do that on disk or flash it's going to be expensive right but if you could start at a couple hundred terabytes not just as a proof of concept but as something that you know you could get predictable value out of that then you could say hey this either scales linearly or non-linearly in a way that i can then go map my investments to how i can go dig deeper into this that's how all of these things are gonna that's how these successful projects are going to start because the people that are starting with these very large you know sort of um expansive you know greenfield projects at multi-petabyte scale it's gonna be hard to realize near-term value excellent we gotta wrap but but garrett i wonder if you could close when you look forward you talk to customers do you see this unification of of file and object is it is this an evolutionary trend is it something that is that that is that is that is going to be a lever that customers use how do you see it evolving over the next two three years and beyond yeah i mean i think from our perspective i mean just from what we're seeing from the numbers within the market the amount of growth that's happening with unstructured data is really just starting to finally really kind of hit this data deluge or whatever you want to call it that we've been talking about for so many years it really does seem to now be becoming true as we start to see things scale out and really folks settle into okay i'm going to use the cloud to to start and maybe train my models but now i'm going to get it back on prem because of latency or security or whatever the the um decision points are there this is something that is not going to slow down and i think you know folks like pure having the ability to have the tools that they give us um to use and bring to market with our customers are really key and critical for us so i see it as a huge growth area and a big focus for us moving forward guys great job unpacking a topic that you know it's covered a little bit but i think we we covered some ground that is uh that is new and so thank you so much for those insights and that data really appreciate your time thanks steve thanks yeah thanks dave okay and thank you for watching the convergence of file and object keep it right there right back after this short break innovation impact influence welcome to the cube disruptors developers and practitioners learn from the voices of leaders who share their personal insights from the hottest digital events around the globe enjoy the best this community has to offer on the cube your global leader in high-tech digital coverage [Music] okay now we're going to get the customer perspective on object and we'll talk about the convergence of file and object but really focusing on the object piece this is a content program that's being made possible by pure storage and it's co-created with the cube christopher cb bond is here he's a lead architect for microfocus the enterprise data warehouse and principal data engineer at microfocus cb welcome good to see you thanks dave good to be here so tell us more about your role at microfocus it's a pan microfocus role of course we know the company is a multinational software firm and acquired the software assets of hp of course including vertica tell us where you fit yeah so microfocus is uh you know it's like i said wide worldwide uh company that uh sells a lot of software products all over the place to governments and so forth and um it also grows often by acquiring other companies so there is the problem of of integrating new companies and their data and so what's happened over the years is that they've had a a number of different discrete data systems so you've got this data spread all over the place and they've never been able to get a full complete introspection on the entire business because of that so my role was come in design a central data repository an enterprise data warehouse that all reporting could be generated against and so that's what we're doing and we selected vertica as the edw system and pure storage flashblade as the communal repository okay so you obviously had experience with with vertica in your in your previous role so it's not like you were starting from scratch but but paint a picture of what life was like before you embarked on this sort of consolidated a approach to your your data warehouse what was it just disparate data all over the place a lot of m a going on where did the data live right so again the data was all over the place including under people's desks in just dedicated you know their their own private uh sql servers it a lot of data in in um microfocus is run on sql server which has pros and cons because that's a great uh transactional database but it's not really good for analytics in my opinion so uh but a lot of stuff was running on that they had one vertica instance that was doing some select uh reporting wasn't a very uh powerful system and it was what they call vertica enterprise mode where had dedicated nodes which um had the compute and storage um in the same locus on each uh server okay so vertica eon mode is a whole new world because it separates compute from storage you mentioned eon mode uh and the ability to to to scale storage and compute independently we wanted to have the uh analytics olap stuff close to the oltp stuff right so that's why they're co-located very close to each other and so uh we could what's nice about this situation is that these s3 objects it's an s3 object store on the pure flash plate we could copy those over if we needed to uh aws and we could spin up um a version of vertica there and keep going it's it's like a tertiary dr strategy because we actually have a we're setting up a second flashblade vertica system geo-located elsewhere for backup and we can get into it if you want to talk about how the latest version of the pure software for the flashblade allows synchronization across network boundaries of those flash plays which is really nice because if uh you know there's a giant sinkhole opens up under our colo facility and we lose that thing then we just have to switch the dns and we were back in business off the dr and then if that one was to go we could copy those objects over to aws and be up and running there so we're feeling pretty confident about being able to weather whatever comes along so you're using the the pure flash blade as an object store um most people think oh object simple but slow uh not the case for you is that right not the case at all it's ripping um well you have to understand about vertica and the way it stores data it stores data in what they call storage containers and those are immutable okay on disk whether it's on aws or if you had a enterprise mode vertica if you do an update or delete it actually has to go and retrieve that object container from disk and it destroys it and rebuilds it okay which is why you don't you want to avoid updates and deletes with vertica because the way it gets its speed is by sorting and ordering and encoding the data on disk so it can read it really fast but if you do an operation where you're deleting or updating a record in the middle of that then you've got to rebuild that entire thing so that actually matches up really well with s3 object storage because it's kind of the same way uh it gets destroyed and rebuilt too okay so that matches up very well with vertica and we were able to design this system so that it's append only now we had some reports that were running in sql server okay uh which were taking seven days so we moved that to uh to vertica from sql server and uh we rewrote the queries which were which had been written in t sql with a bunch of loops and so forth and we were to get this is amazing it went from seven days to two seconds to generate this report which has tremendous value uh to the company because it would have to have this long cycle of seven days to get a new introspection in what they call their knowledge base and now all of a sudden it's almost on demand two seconds to generate it that's great and that's because of the way the data is stored and uh the s3 you asked about oh you know is it slow well not in that context because what happens really with vertica eon mode is that it can they have um when you set up your compute nodes they have local storage also which is called the depot it's kind of a cache okay so the data will be drawn from the flash and cached locally uh and that was it was thought when they designed that oh you know it's that'll cut down on the latency okay but it turns out that if you have your compute nodes close meaning minimal hops to the flashblade that you can actually uh tell vertica you know don't even bother caching that stuff just read it directly on the fly from the from the flashblade and the performance is still really good it depends on your situation but i know for example a major telecom company that uh uses the same topology as we're talking about here they did the same thing they just they just dropped the cache because the flash player was able to to deliver the the data fast enough so that's you're talking about that that's speed of light issues and just the overhead of of of switching infrastructure is that that gets eliminated and so as a result you can go directly to the storage array that's correct yeah it's it's like it's fast enough that it's it's almost as if it's local to the compute node uh but every situation is different depending on your uh your knees if you've got like a few tables that are heavily used uh then yeah put them um put them in the cash because that'll be probably a little bit faster but if you have a lot of ad hoc queries that are going on you know you may exceed the storage of the local cache and then you're better off having it uh just read directly from the uh from the flash blade got it look it pure's a fit i mean i sound like a fanboy but pure is all about simplicity so is object so that means you don't have to you know worry about wrangling storage and worrying about luns and all that other you know nonsense and and file i've been burned by hardware in the past you know where oh okay they're building to a price and so they cheap out on stuff like fans or other things and these these components fail and the whole thing goes down but this hardware is super super good quality and uh so i'm i'm happy with the quality that we're getting so cb last question what's next for you where do you want to take this uh this this initiative well we are in the process now of we um when so i i designed this system to combine the best of the kimball approach to data warehousing and the inland approach okay and what we do is we bring over all the data we've got and we put it into a pristine staging layer okay like i said it's uh because it's append only it's essentially a log of all the transactions that are happening in this company just they appear okay and then from the the kimball side of things we're designing the data marts now so that that's what the end users actually interact with and so we're we're taking uh the we're examining the transactional systems to say how are these business objects created what's what's the logic there and we're recreating those logical models in uh in vertica so we've done a handful of them so far and it's working out really well so going forward we've got a lot of work to do to uh create just about every object that that the company needs cb you're an awesome guest to really always a pleasure talking to you and uh thank you congratulations and and good luck going forward stay safe thank you [Music] okay let's summarize the convergence of file and object first i want to thank our guests matt burr scott sinclair garrett belsener and c.b bohn i'm your host dave vellante and please allow me to briefly share some of the key takeaways from today's program so first as scott sinclair of esg stated surprise surprise data's growing and matt burr he helped us understand the growth of unstructured data i mean estimates indicate that the vast majority of data will be considered unstructured by mid-decade 80 or so and obviously unstructured data is growing very very rapidly now of course your definition of unstructured data and that may vary across across a wide spectrum i mean there's video there's audio there's documents there's spreadsheets there's chat i mean these are generally considered unstructured data but of course they all have some type of structure to them you know perhaps it's not as strict as a relational database but there's certainly metadata and certain structure to these types of use cases that i just mentioned now the key to what pure is promoting is this idea of unified fast file and object uffo look object is great it's inexpensive it's simple but historically it's been less performant so good for archiving or cheap and deep types of examples organizations often use file for higher performance workloads and let's face it most of the world's data lives in file formats what pure is doing is bringing together file and object by for example supporting multiple protocols ie nfs smb and s3 s3 of course has really given new life to object over the past decade now the key here is to essentially enable customers to have the best of both worlds not having to trade off performance for object simplicity and a key discussion point that we've had on the program has been the impact of flash on the long slow death of spinning disk look hard disk drives they had a great run but hdd volumes they peaked in 2010 and flash as you well know has seen tremendous volume growth thanks to the consumption of flash in mobile devices and then of course its application into the enterprise and that's volume is just going to keep growing and growing and growing the price declines of flash are coming down faster than those of hdd so it's the writing's on the wall it's just a matter of time so flash is riding down that cost curve very very aggressively and hdd has essentially become you know a managed decline business now by bringing flash to object as part of the flashblade portfolio and allowing for multiple protocols pure hopes to eliminate the dissonance between file and object and simplify the choice in other words let the workload decide if you have data in a file format no problem pure can still bring the benefits of simplicity of object at scale to the table so again let the workload inform what the right strategy is not the technical infrastructure now pure course is not alone there are others supporting this multi-protocol strategy and so we asked matt burr why pure or what's so special about you and not surprisingly in addition to the product innovation he went right to pure's business model advantages i mean for example with its evergreen support model which was very disruptive in the marketplace you know frankly pure's entire business disrupted the traditional disk array model which was fundamentally was flawed pure forced the industry to respond and when it achieved escape velocity velocity and pure went public the entire industry had to react and a big part of the pure value prop in addition to this business model innovation that we just discussed is simplicity pure's keep its simple approach coincided perfectly with the ascendancy of cloud where technology organizations needed cloud-like simplicity for certain workloads that were never going to move into the cloud they're going to stay on-prem now i'm going to come back to this but allow me to bring in another concept that garrett and cb really highlighted and that is the complexity of the data pipeline and what do you mean what do i mean by that and why is this important so scott sinclair articulated he implied that the big challenge is organizations their data full but insights are scarce scarce a lot of data not as much insights it takes time too much time to get to those insights so we heard from our guests that the complexity of the data pipeline was a barrier to getting to faster insights now cb bonds shared how he streamlined his data architecture using vertica's eon mode which allowed him to scale compute independently of storage so that brought critical flexibility and improved economics at scale and flashblade of course was the back-end storage for his data warehouse efforts now the reason i think this is so important is that organizations are struggling to get insights from data and the complexity associated with the data pipeline and data life cycles let's face it it's overwhelming organizations and there the answer to this problem is a much longer and different discussion than unifying object and file that's you know i can spend all day talking about that but let's focus narrowly on the part of the issue that is related to file and object so the situation here is that technology has not been serving the business the way it should rather the formula is twisted in the world of data and big data and data architectures the data team is mired in complex technical issues that impact the time to insights now part of the answer is to abstract the underlying infrastructure complexity and create a layer with which the business can interact that accelerates instead of impedes innovation and unifying file and object is a simple example of this where the business team is not blocked by infrastructure nuance like does this data reside in a file or object format can i get to it quickly and inexpensively in a logical way or is the infrastructure in a stovepipe and blocking me so if you think about the prevailing sentiment of how the cloud is evolving to incorporate on premises workloads that are hybrid and configurations that are working across clouds and now out to the edge this idea of an abstraction layer that essentially hides the underlying infrastructure is a trend we're going to see evolve this decade now is uffo the be all end-all answer to solving all of our data pipeline challenges no no of course not but by bringing the simplicity and economics of object together with the ubiquity and performance of file uffo makes it a lot easier it simplifies life organizations that are evolving into digital businesses which by the way is every business so we see this as an evolutionary trend that further simplifies the underlying technology infrastructure and does a better job supporting the data flows for organizations so they don't have to spend so much time worrying about the technology details that add a little value to the business okay so thanks for watching the convergence of file and object and thanks to pure storage for making this program possible this is dave vellante for the cube we'll see you next time [Music] you

from around the globe it's thecube presenting the convergence of file and object brought to you by pure storage we're back with the convergence of file and object a special program made possible by pure storage and co-created with the cube so in this series we're exploring that convergence between file and object storage we're digging into the trends the architectures and some of the use cases for unified fast file and object storage uffo with me is matt burr who's the vice president general manager of flashblade at pure storage hello matt how you doing i'm doing great morning dave how are you good thank you hey let's start with a little 101 you know kind of the basics what is unified fast file and object yeah so look i mean i think you got to start with first principles talking about the rise of unstructured data so when we think about unstructured data you sort of think about the projections 80 of data by 2025 is going to be unstructured data whether that's machine generated data or you know ai and ml type workloads you start to sort of see this i don't want to say it's a boom uh but it's sort of a renaissance for unstructured data if you will where we move away from you know what we've traditionally thought of as general purpose nas and and file shares to you know really things that focus on uh fast object taking advantage of s3 cloud native applications that need to integrate with applications on site um you know ai workloads ml workloads tend to look to share data across uh you know multiple data sets and you really need to have a platform that can deliver both highly performant and scalable fast file and object from one system so talk a little bit more about some of the drivers that you know bring forth that need to unify file an object yeah i mean look you know there's a there's there's a real challenge um in managing you know bespoke uh bespoke infrastructure or architectures around general purpose nas and daz etc so um if you think about how a an architect sort of looks at an application they might say well okay i need to have um you know fast daz storage proximal to the application um but that's gonna require a tremendous amount of dabs which is a tremendous amount of drives right hard drives are you know historically pretty pretty pretty unwieldy to manage because you're replacing them relatively consistently at multi-petabyte scale so you start to look at things like the complexity of das you start to look at the complexity of general purpose nas and you start to just look at quite frankly something that a lot of people don't really want to talk about anymore but actual data center space right like consolidation matters the ability to take you know something that's the size of a microwave like a modern flash blade or a modern um you know uffo device replaces something that might be you know the size of three or four or five refrigerators so matt why is is now the right time for this i mean for years nobody really paid much attention to object s3 already obviously changed you know that course most of the world's data is still stored in file formats and you get there with nfs or smb why is now the time to think about unifying object and and file well because we're moving to things like a contactless society um you know the the things that we're going to do are going to just require a tremendous amount more compute power network and quite frankly storage throughput and you know i can give you two sort of real primary examples here right um you know warehouses are being you know taken over by robots if you will um it's not a war it's a it's a it's sort of a friendly advancement in you know how do i how do i store a box in a warehouse and you know we have we have a customer who focuses on large sort of big box distribution warehousing and you know a box that carried a an object uh two weeks ago might have a different box size two weeks later well that robot needs to know where the space is in the data center in order to put it but also needs to be able to process hey i don't want to put the thing that i'm going to access the most in the back of the warehouse i'm going to put that thing in the front of the warehouse all of those types of data you know sort of real time you can think of the robot as almost an edge device uh is processing in real time unstructured data and its object right so it's sort of the emergence of these new types of workloads and i give you the opposite example the other end of the spectrum is ransomware right you know today you know we'll talk to customers and they'll say quite commonly hey if you know anybody can sell me a backup device i need something that can restore quickly if you had the ability to restore something in 270 terabytes an hour or 250 terabytes an hour that's much faster when you're dealing with a ransomware attack you want to get your data back quickly you know so i want to actually i was going to ask you about that later but since you brought it up what is the right i guess call it architecture for for for ransomware i mean how and explain like how unified object and file would support me i get the fast recovery but how would you recommend a customer uh go about architecting a ransomware proof you know system yeah well you know with with flashblade and and with flasharray there's an actual feature called called safe mode and that safe mode actually protects uh the snapshots and and the data from uh sort of being is a part of the of the ransomware event and so if you're in a type of ransomware situation like this you're able to leverage safe mode and you say okay what happens in a ransomware attack is you can't get access to your data and so you know the bad guy the perpetrator is basically saying hey i'm not going to give you access to your data until you pay me you know x in bitcoin or whatever it might be right um with with safe mode those snapshots are actually protected outside of the ransomware blast zone and you can bring back those snapshots because what's your alternative if you're not doing something like that your alternative is either to pay and unlock your data or you have to start retouring restoring excuse me from tape or slow disk that could take you days or weeks to get your data back so leveraging safe mode um you know in either the flash for the flash blade product is a great way to go about uh architecting against ransomware i got to put my i'm thinking like a customer now so safe mode so that's an immutable mode right can't change the data um is it can can an administrator go in and change that mode can he turn it off do i still need an air gap for example what would you recommend there yeah so there there are still um uh you know sort of our back or rollback role-based access control policies uh around who can access that safe mode and who can right okay so uh anyway subject for a different day i want to i want to actually bring up uh if you don't object a topic that i think used to be really front and center and it now be is becoming front and center again i mean wikibon just produced a research note forecasting the future of flash and hard drives and those of you who follow us know we've done this for quite some time and you can if you could bring up the chart here you you could see and we see this happening again it was originally we forecast the the death of of quote unquote high spin speed disk drives which is kind of an oxymoron but you can see on here on this chart this hard disk had a magnificent journey but they peaked in volume in manufacturing volume in 2010 and the reason why that is is so important is that volumes now are steadily dropping you can see that and we use wright's law to explain why this is a problem and wright's law essentially says that as you your cumulative manufacturing volume doubles your cost to manufacture decline by a constant percentage now i won't go too much detail on that but suffice it to say that flash volumes are growing very rapidly hdd volumes aren't and so flash because of consumer volumes can take advantage of wright's law and that constant reduction and that's what's really important for the next generation which is always more expensive to build and so this kind of marks the beginning of the end matt what do you think what what's the future hold for spinning disc in your view uh well i can give you the answer on two levels on a personal level uh it's why i come to work every day uh you know the the eradication or or extinction of an inefficient thing um you know i like to say that inefficiency is the bane of my existence uh and i think hard drives are largely inefficient and i'm willing to accept the sort of long-standing argument that um you know we've seen this transition in block right and we're starting to see it repeat itself in in unstructured data um and i'm willing to accept the argument that cost is a vector here and it most certainly is right hdds have been considerably cheaper uh than than than flash storage um you know even to this day uh you know up to this point right but we're starting to approach the point where you sort of reach a 3x sort of you know differentiator between the cost of an hdd and an sdd and you know that really is that point in time when uh you begin to pick up a lot of volume and velocity and so you know that tends to map directly to you know what you're seeing here which is you know a slow decline uh which i think is going to become even more rapid kind of probably starting around next year where you start to see sds excuse me ssds uh you know really replacing hdds uh at a much more rapid clip particularly on the unstructured data side and it's largely around cost the the workloads that we talked about robots and warehouses or you know other types of advanced machine learning and artificial intelligence type applications and workflows you know they require a degree of performance that a hard drive just can't deliver we are we are seeing sort of the um creative innovative uh disruption of an entire industry right before our eyes it's a fun thing to live through yeah and and we would agree i mean it doesn't the premise there is it doesn't have to be less expensive we think it will be by you know the second half or early second half of this decade but even if it's a we think around a 3x delta the value of of ssd relative to spinning disk is going to overwhelm just like with your laptop you know it got to the point where you said why would i ever have a spinning disc in my laptop we see the same thing happening here um and and so and we're talking about you know raw capacity you know put in compression and dedupe and everything else that you really can't do with spinning discs because of the performance issues you can do with flash okay let's come back to uffo can we dig into the challenges specifically that that this solves for customers give me give us some examples yeah so you know i mean if we if we think about the examples um you know the the robotic one um i think is is is the one that i think is the marker for you know kind of of of the the modern side of of of what we see here um but what we're you know what we're what we're seeing from a trend perspective which you know not everybody's deploying robots right um you know there's there's many companies that are you know that aren't going to be in either the robotic business uh or or even thinking about you know sort of future type oriented type things but what they are doing is greenfield applications are being built on object um generally not on not on file and and not on block and so you know the rise of of object as sort of the the sort of let's call it the the next great protocol for um you know for uh for for modern workloads right this is this is that that modern application coming to the forefront and that could be anything from you know financial institutions you know right down through um you know we've even see it and seen it in oil and gas uh we're also seeing it across across healthcare uh so you know as as as companies take the opportunity as industries to take this opportunity to modernize you know they're modernizing not on things that are are leveraging you know um you know sort of archaic disk technology they're they're they're really focusing on on object but they still have file workflows that they need to that they need to be able to support and so having the ability to be able to deliver those things from one device in a capacity orientation or a performance orientation while at the same time dramatically simplifying the overall administration of your environment both physically and non-physically is a key driver so the great thing about object is it's simple it's a kind of a get put metaphor um it's it scales out you know because it's got metadata associated with the data uh and and it's cheap the drawback is you don't necessarily associate it with high performance and and as well most applications don't you know speak in that language they speak in the language of file you know or as you mentioned block so i i see real opportunities here if i have some some data that's not necessarily frequently accessed you know every day but yet i want to then whether end of quarter or whatever it is i want to i want to or machine learning i want to apply some ai to that data i want to bring it in and then apply a file format uh because for performance reasons is that right maybe you could unpack that a little bit yeah so um you know we see i mean i think you described it well right um but i don't think object necessarily has to be slow um and nor does it have to be um you know because when you think about you brought up a good point with metadata right being able to scale to a billions of objects being able to scale to billions of objects excuse me is of value right um and i think people do traditionally associate object with slow but it's not necessarily slow anymore right we we did a sort of unofficial survey of of of our of our customers and our employee base and when people described object they thought of it as like law firms and storing a word doc if you will um and that that's just you know i think that there's a lack of understanding or a misnomer around what modern what modern object has become and perform an object particularly at scale when we're talking about billions of objects you know that's the next frontier right um is it at pace performance wise with you know the other protocols no but it's making leaps and grounds so you talked a little bit more about some of the verticals that you see i mean i think when i think of financial services i think transaction processing but of course they have a lot of tons of unstructured data are there any patterns you're seeing by by vertical market um we're you know we're not that's the interesting thing um and you know um as a as a as a as a company with a with a block heritage or a block dna those patterns were pretty easy to spot right there were a certain number of databases that you really needed to support oracle sql some postgres work etc then kind of the modern databases around cassandra and things like that you knew that there were going to be vmware environments you know you could you could sort of see the trends and where things were going unstructured data is such a broader horizontal um thing right so you know inside of oil and gas for example you have you know um you have specific applications and bespoke infrastructures for those applications um you know inside of media entertainment you know the same thing the the trend that we're seeing the commonality that we're seeing is the modernization of you know object as a starting point for all the all of the net new workloads within within those industry verticals right that's the most common request we see is what's your object roadmap what's your you know what's your what's your object strategy you know where do you think where do you think object is going so um there isn't any um you know sort of uh there's no there's no path uh it's really just kind of a wide open field in front of us with common requests across all industries so the amazing thing about pure just as a kind of a little you know quasi you know armchair historian the industry is pure was really the only company in many many years to be able to achieve escape velocity break through a billion dollars i mean three part couldn't do it isilon couldn't do it compellent couldn't do it i could go on but pure was able to achieve that as an independent company uh and so you become a leader you look at the gartner magic quadrant you're a leader in there i mean if you've made it this far you've got to have some chops and so of course it's very competitive there are a number of other storage suppliers that have announced products that unify object and file so i'm interested in how pure differentiates why pure um it's a great question um and it's one that uh you know having been a long time puritan uh you know i take pride in answering um and it's actually a really simple answer um it's it's business model innovation and technology right the the technology that goes behind how we do what we do right and i don't mean the product right innovation is product but having a better support model for example um or having on the business model side you know evergreen storage right where we sort of look at your relationship to us as a subscription right um you know we're gonna sort of take the thing that that you've had and we're gonna modernize that thing in place over time such that you're not rebuying that same you know terabyte or you know petabyte of storage that you've that you that you've paid for over time so um you know sort of three legs of the stool uh that that have made you know pure clearly differentiated i think the market has has recognized that um you're right it's it's hard to break through to a billion dollars um but i look forward to the day that you know we we have two billion dollar products and i think with uh you know that rise in in unstructured data growing to 80 by 2025 and you know the massive transition that you know you guys have noted in in in your hdd slide i think it's a huge opportunity for us on you know the other unstructured data side of the house you know the other thing i'd add matt and i've talked to cause about this is is it's simplicity first i've asked them why don't you do this why don't you do it and the answer is always the same is that adds complexity and we we put simplicity for the customer ahead of everything else and i think that served you very very well what about the economics of of unified file and object i mean if you bringing additional value presumably there's a there there's a cost to that but there's got to be also a business case behind it what kind of impact have you seen with customers yeah i mean look i'll i'll go back to something i mentioned earlier which is just the reclamation of floor space and power and cooling right um you know there's a you know there's people people people want to search for kind of the the sexier element if you will when it comes to looking at how we how you derive value from something but the reality is if you're reducing your power consumption by you know by by a material percentage um power bills matter in big in big data centers you know customers typically are are facing you know a paradigm of well i i want to go to the cloud but you know the clouds are not being more expensive than i thought it was going to be or you know i've figured out what i can use in the cloud i thought it was going to be everything but it's not going to be everything so hybrid's where we're landing but i want to be out of the data center business and i don't want to have a team of 20 storage people to match you know to administer my storage um you know so there's sort of this this very tangible value around you know hey if i could manage um you know multiple petabytes with one full-time engineer uh because the system uh to your and kaza's point was radically simpler to administer didn't require someone to be running around swapping drives all the time would that be a value the answer is yes 100 of the time right and then you start to look at okay all right well on the uffo side from a product perspective hey if i have to manage a you know bespoke environment for this application if i have to manage a bespoke environment for this application and a spoke environment for this application and this focus environment for this application i'm managing four different things and can i actually share data across those four different things there's ways to share data but most customers it just gets too complex how do you even know what your what your gold.master copy is of data if you have it in four different places or you try to have it in four different places and it's four different siloed infrastructures so when you get to the sort of the side of you know how do we how do you measure value in uffo it's actually being able to have all of that data concentrated in one place so that you can share it from application to application got it i'm interested we use a couple minutes left i'm interested in the the update on flashblade you know generally but also i have a specific question i mean look getting file right is hard enough uh you just announced smb support for flashblade i'm interested in you know how that fits in i think it's kind of obvious with file and object converging but give us the update on on flashblade and maybe you could address that specific question yeah so um look i mean we're we're um you know tremendously excited about the growth of flashblade uh you know we we we found workloads we never expected to find um you know the rapid restore workload was one that was actually brought to us from from a customer actually um and has become you know one of our one of our top two three four you know workloads so um you know we're really happy with the trend we've seen in it um and you know mapping back to you know thinking about hdds and ssds you know we're well on a path to building a billion dollar business here so you know we're very excited about that but to your point you know you don't just snap your fingers and get there right um you know we've learned that doing file and object uh is is harder than block um because there's more things that you have to go do for one you're basically focused on three protocols s b nfs and s3 not necessarily in that order um but to your point about s b uh you know we we are on the path through to releasing um you know smb full full native smb support in in the system that will allow us to uh service customers we have a limitation with some customers today where they'll have an smb portion of their nfs workflow um and we do great on the nfs side um but you know we didn't we didn't have the ability to plug into the s p component of their workflow so that's going to open up a lot of opportunity for us um on on that front um and you know we continue to you know invest significantly across the board in in areas like security which is you know become more than just a hot button you know today security's always been there but it feels like it's blazing hot today and so you know going through the next couple years we'll be looking at uh you know developing some some uh you know pretty material security elements of the product as well so uh well on a path to a billion dollars is the net on that and uh you know we're we're fortunate to have have smb here and we're looking forward to introducing that to to those customers that have you know nfs workloads today with an s b component yeah nice tailwind good tam expansion strategy matt thanks so much we're out of time but really appreciate you coming on the program we appreciate you having us and uh thanks much dave good to see you all right good to see you and you're watching the convergence of file and object keep it right there we'll be back with more right after this short break [Music]

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the cue covering Sisqo Live Europe, brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to Barcelona, everybody. You watching the Cube? The leader in live tech coverage is the first day of three days of coverage for Sisqo. Live for Europe. Lin Lucas is here. She's the chief marketing officer for Kohi City. Lend great to see you again. Thanks for coming on. >> Great to see you here in Europe. >> We were just saying it's the first time that we've done this on the continent. So another >> first? Yeah. Another first. Been s so pleased to be in the U. S with you guys, that multiple shows. And now we were here in Barcelona, >> so it's a great venue. We've actually done a number of shows here. Then again, it's a pleasure having you on. Let's see, Let's get right to it. What's going on with you guys and Cisco? You got got some news. Let's talk about >> Absolutely. As you know, we don't stop innovating continuous innovation at Cohesity and a number of new things. So last week we announced a new Cisco validated design with hyper flex and Cohesity integrating for snapshot integration for backup and, of course, instant recovery of that critical data center infrastructure. And we're calling it hyper squared. So you get full hyper convergence for your primary and, of course, your backup. Another secondary application. >> And those guys just want to talk about hype reflects anywhere. Still, so it's like infinitive hype. Infinity, hyper flex, >> hyper square, >> so hyper squared. Love it. So you guys will. How does that work? You'll obviously you want to be the provider of data protection provider from Multi Cloud. That's a huge opportunity. So how do you do that? You'll you'll plug into whatever framework that customer wants. Presumably, a lot of customers wanted the Cisco framework out. Is that all? >> Oh, absolutely. Hit the nail on the head. I mean, Cisco, obviously, one of the most respected leaders in the world, tens of thousands of customers globally depend on them. I'm Francisco alum love being back here at the old stomping grounds and Cisco's been an investor in cohesive he now, since our serious sees. So, they really saw the promise in the benefit of what Kohi City offers with hybrid converge solutions for modern backup recovery. And to your point to the cloud. You know, Cisco's talking a lot about multi cloud here and cohesive E with our native cloud integration helps customers protect those backups on or those applications on hyper flex, and then instantly move them to a cloud of choice. And then, as you've mentioned, Cisco has so many fantastic relationships that there are very strong go to market partner with us. And when customers wanted by solution, they could get the whole solution from Cisco, including Cohesive >> Yulin. We're glad we have you on because connecting the dots between something like hyper converge, which we've been talking about for a number of years now, and how that fits into multi cloud. To some, it's a little clunky sometimes goods like. But I've got my data center. Or am I just doing backup to the cloud? Because what we know is customers, a. Cisco says their data is, you know, kind of de centred. It's no longer in the in the data center of all over the place. Companies like Kohi City can give you that centralized data protection. No matter where your environment is, walk us through what you're hearing from your customers. How they look at kind of their data center versus the multi cloud environment and data protection. >> Yeah, so I think it's Ah, you know, I think customers air now understanding that it's not either or right. There was a time when people thought, Wow, I'm going to move everything to the cloud And I really think there's a maturing of an understanding of what's going to work well for me in this cloud First world, what do I want to put there? And then what am I going to keep on premises? So that's one of the things that Cohee City innovated our core technology. A distributed Web scale file system spanning file system, which spans the data center and the cloud world seamlessly. And what we're seeing is customers air really using the cloud for archiving, getting off of tape because then they get that search capability very easy when they need Teo tearing and then, most importantly, disaster recovery. You know, in the event of something man made or natural, many, many organizations moving to the clouds for their second sight. And with Kohi City, that's very easy to make. That transfer happened in a very seamless way with our capability set. So I think what we're seeing is this really maturing of how customers look at it as a really holistic environment. And so Cisco calling it data centered. But we call this, you know, mass data fragmentation. And then with our spanning file system being able to really consolidate that now >> yeah, another thing that needs that kind of holistic view is security. I know it's something that's in your product. There was a random where announcement that you made last week tells how security fits into this world. >> Yeah, well, you know, I think we all hate to say it, but you know that old phrase, the new normal unfortunately ran somewhere, and malware has become the new normal for organizations of all sizes. You know, here in Europe, we have that off the situation with the N HS in the UK last year. Andi, it's happening everywhere. So you know one element that the's attackers air taking is looking at how to disable backups. And so this is really important that as a part of a holistic security strategy that organizations take a look at that attack vector. So what cohesive he's introduced is really unique. It's three steps. It's prevent its detect, prevent and then recover. So detect in terms of capabilities to see if there are nefarious changes being happened to the file system right, and then prevent with Helios automatically detecting and with our smart assistant providing that notification and then, if need be, recover with our instant mass restore capability, going back to any point in time with no performance issue. This is not taking time for the rehydration spanning file system doing this instantly and allowing an organization to basically say, Sorry, not today, attackers. We don't need to pay you because we can instantly restore back to a safe point in time. >> So let's unpack those a little bit. If we could detect piece, I presume there's an analytics component to that. You're you're observing the the behavior of the of the backup corpus is that right there, Which is a logical place because it's got all the corporate data in there >> that that's correct. So last year we introduced Helios, which is our global SAS space management system, as machine learning capability in it. And that's providing that machine learning based monitoring to see what kinds of anomalies may be happening that is then proactively alerted to the team >> and then the recovery piece, a ce Well, like you said, it's it's got to be fast. Gotta have high performance, high performance data movement, and that's fundamental to your file system. Is that what I'm hearing >> that architecture that's correct. That's one of the differences of our modern backup solution. Versus some of the non hyper converge architectures is the distributed Web file system, which our CEO Motorin, he was formally at Google, helped with developing their file system has what's called instant ability to go back into any point in time and recover not just one of'em, but actually at a v M wear. A couple years ago, we demonstrated thousands of'em is at a time, and the reason for that is this Web scale file system, which is really unique to Kohi City. And that's what allows a nightie organization to not be held hostage because they can not have two potentially spend not just ours, but even days with the old legacy systems trying to rehydrate. You know these backups if they have to go back potentially many months in time because you don't know that that ran somewhere may have been introduced, not say yesterday, but might have been several months ago, and that's one of the key advantages of this instant master store. >> I mean, this is super important rights, too, because we're talking about very granular levels of being able to dial up dial down. You could tune it by application of high value applications. You can. You have much greater granularity some of the crap locations that not, maybe not. It's important. So flexibility is key there. How about customers, any new customers that you can talk about? >> Absolutely. So one of the ones since we're here, it's just go live. So Cisco, along with Kohi City, we've been working with one of the largest global manufacturers of semiconductors and other electronic equipment, Tokyo Electron, based in Tokyo but also here in the U. K. On the continent. And they had one of those older backup solutions and were challenged with time. It was taking them to back up the restores not being predictable. So they've gone with Cohesive e running on Cisco UCS. Because we're a software to find platform. We offer our software on our customers, you know, choice of Certified Solutions and Cisco UCS. And so they've started with backup, but they're now moving very quickly into archiving to the cloud, helping reduce their costs and get off of tape and to disaster recovery. Ultimately, so super excited that together with Cisco, we could help this customer modernized their data center and, you know, accelerate their hybrid clouds strategy at the same time. >> Awesome. And then you guys were also protecting the Sisqo Live network here. What? Tell us about that? >> Yes. Oh, you know, Cisco builds an amazing network here. I mean, you've seen the operations center, a huge team of people. But as we all know, things could go wrong. Potentially. And so we are protecting the critical services that Cisco's providing to all of this is go live attendees here. So should something happen, which I'm sure won't. Kohi City will be used to instantly recover and bring backup critical services like DNA and other areas that they're depending on to serve. All of the thousands of showgoers here. >> So super hot space. We talked about this at PM World. Actually, last couple of years. Just how much activity and interest there is and the whole parlance is changing land on one of you could come and I used to be you back up when the world was tape. Now you're talking about data protection data management, which could mean a lot of things to a lot of people to a storage folks. It's, you know, it's pretty specific, but you're seeing a massive evolution of the space cloud. Clearly is the underpinning of the tailwind on it requires you guy's toe. To respond is an industry and cohesive, specifically is a company. So I wanted to talk about some of those major trends and how you guys are responding and you're leading. And, >> yeah, I think you know, folks have been a little bit surprised, like, Wait a minute. What's this kind of sleepy industry? Why is it getting all this funding? I mean, our own Siri's de funding. Middle of last year, two hundred fifty million dollars. Softbank banked along with Sequoia, of course. But really, the trend, as is being talked about Francisco Live, is data is. I don't want to say the new oil, but it's the water of the world, right? I mean, it's absolutely crucial to any business, the's days other than your talent. It's your most important business asset. >> And >> the pressure on the board and the CEO and the CEO and turn to be agile to do more with that data to know what you have because here we are in Europe, GDP are increasing, regulations is super important. And so you know, this has really brought for be need to create holistic ways to organize and manage and have visibility toe all of that data, and it's massively fragmented. We put out that research last year, massive data fragmentation and most of that data has been kind of under the water line in most people's minds. You know, you think about your primary applications and data that's really only twenty percent, and the other eighty percent in test Evan Analytics and Backup has been pretty fragmented in Siloed, and it hasn't yet had that vision of How could we consolidate that and move it into a modern space until folks like Mode Erin, you know, founded Cohesive E and applied those same hyper converge techniques that he did at new tonics. So I think that this investment just further validates the fact that data is the most important business asset, and people are really in need of new solutions to manage it, protected and then ultimately do Mohr with it gain insights out of it. >> You know, just a couple comments on that one is, you know, data. We always joke about data's the new oil. It's even more valuable because you can use data in multiple places. You can only put oil in your car once. And so so companies of being in and to realize that how valuable it is trying to understand that value, how to protect that and the GPR. It's interesting. It's it's really. The fines went into effect in Europe last May, but it's become a template, a framework globally. People, you know us. Compensate. All right, we gotta prepare for GPR. And then local jurisdictions announced thing. Well, that's a decent starting point. And so it's not just confined to Europe. It's really on everybody's mind. >> It is, and you brought up the cloud before. And you know the cloud is a new way for people to be agile, and they're getting a lot of value out of it. But it also continues to fragment their data and the visibility. No. In talking Teo Large CIA O of, ah, Fortune one hundred large organisation. He's actually has less visibility in many ways in the cloud because of the ease of proliferation of test ever. And that is creating Mohr. You know, stress, I would say in the system and need for solutions to both provide an enhanced set agility. Move data to the cloud, easily move it out when you need to. But also with regulation, be able to identify and delete. As you know, with GPR if needed, the information that you know your customer may ask you to remove from your systems. >> Yeah, well, I love this conversation a little following cohesively because you guys are up leveling the entire game. I've been following the data protection space for decades now, and the problem with data protection is has always been a bolt on, and companies like, oh, he city both with the funding your your vision. He really forcing the industry. They're kind of re think data protection, not as a bolt on what is a fundamental component of digital strategies and data strategy. So it's fun watching you guys. Congratulations on all the growth. I know you got more to go. So thanks so much for coming in the Cuban and always a pleasure to see you. >> All of always a pleasure to be here with you guys. Thanks very much. >> You're very welcome. All right. Keep it right there, buddy. Stew Minimum and David Lantz from Cisco Live. Barcelona. You watching the Cube?

(upbeat electronic music) >> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering AWS re:Invent 2018. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services, Intel, and their ecosystem partners. >> Hi everyone, welcome back to theCUBE, we're live in Las Vegas for AWS Amazon Web Services re:Invent 2018. It's the sixth year of theCUBE coverage. Two sets wall-to-wall. Day two of day four, day one of our broadcast, two more days, wall-to-wall coverage. I'm John Furrier, your host. Our next two guests are from Druva. We've got Jaspreet Singh, CUBE alumni, founder and CEO, and Mike Palmer, chief product officer from Druva. You guys are in the middle of it, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks very much. >> Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Good to see you guys. I want to get into it because I just had another guest on earlier. We talked about the holy trinity of infrastructure has been compute, networking, and storage, right? Those things are not, those are evolving, now they're coming together and they're changing. You get a lot of compute here, you can do more storage there, you got networking. We're expecting to hear a lot of announcements about connectivity. But the new dynamics of the infrastructure really encapsulates why cloud's been so successful. Okay great, cloud's great, DevOps, microservices. Check check check. We all love that, we believe it. But the big thing that people, I won't say be blindsided by, but aren't talking as much about is just the impact of data. Okay, you guys were out early on it, you saw the architecture in the cloud. Are people finally getting it? The cloud and data are coming together architecturally, thinking-wise, impact to customer. You guys started attacking that problem early on. What's your vibe here at re:Invent about the role of data and cloudification? >> Sure, I think if you look back and understand why cloud happened in the first place, right? So if you look at Amazon itself or AWS, it's Amazon's retail API is applied to everything IP. Where you could, we could buy and consume services on a price point across the globe as APIs. And now if you fast-forward, the right decide the compute, network is all coming together, the new realm of self serverless computing, all these turns are pioneering more and more increased data creation. Either in the data center, at the edge, or in the cloud. And unless you do something more holistic, sort of manage it, to protect it, to manage it, it's getting harder and harder to put your arms around the data growth. And cloud is a great answer to the whole data management, or the whole creation and management of data, given that the traditional systems are not very, very defined in the way data is going. Data used to be in Oracle, and VMware, and Siebel Systems, and everything else, now it's more image sensor, media text, apps which have been created. The new realm of data is very hard to put arms around with traditional routes of putting in the box in the middle of data. That's why the cloud is key to it. >> On the product side, you guys have been attacking the data. Amazon's expecting to announce here, they've done some pre-announcements, the role of consistency. It's something that we've talked about on theCUBE in our studio and at events. You guys have been on this from day one. Cloud operations on-premises, and the cloud should look the same, has to be consistent. Andy Jassy is going to be banging that drum tomorrow in his keynote. You guys have been part of AWS for a long time, your relationship. Are they getting that messaging from you guys? (chuckles) I mean, Andy, they all be in the public cloud now that he's back on-premise. So he's listening to the customers. I mean, Andy's very straight up about it. He's like, hey, I'm a big guy. I can handle the criticism. Customers want it on-premise. I'd love her when it come to the cloud, but that's what they want. >> It certainly would be flattery that they took messaging from Druva. (John laughing) And I'm not sure that-- >> But you guys have been, cover the relationship with Amazon first. How long have you guys been working with Amazon? >> We work five years now. Very good relationship with Amazon. >> And the product side is impacted in their ecosystem. How are you guys doing relative to the architecture of Amazon? >> I think we're the only natively architected solution in the market today. And so, if you saw this morning, we were right there on the board with some of the companies that have been around for decades, primarily because if you think about the generations of data protection solutions where you started with tape on mainframe, and you moved to one of the four legacy providers in the client's server space, you had another one that really popped up with VMware. Druva really owns the cloud space. And that requires, as you mentioned, a different architecture, adoption of more of an object storage model, the ability to natively store data in a file system in the cloud. That's different than what anyone has built in the past, and I think that's what the relationship with AWS is built on. >> So you think that Jassy's going on his on-premise mess-ee-mah consistently validates what you guys do? >> Without a doubt. He's gotten a lot of customers moving to AWS over the years, and some of them have some real barriers. I think AWS is doing what they always have done well. Listen to their customers, create solutions for those customers, and in the case of Druva, for example, being able to be integrated in a Snowball Edge which is unique to Druva, serving those customers, moving data to the cloud but allowing 'em local restore? Give 'em-- >> Andy Jassy announces AWS on-premise which is what we're expecting to see tomorrow. It's maybe some sort of appliance or something along those lines. We'll see what it comes out as. That's essentially the Azure stack model done right. From their premier perspective. Amazon on Amazon, Amazon on-premise, you can run it in the cloud. This sounds like a tailwind for you guys. How will that impact your business? How is Druva going to be impacted? To me, it would seem like it's just, you don't miss a beat. Sounds like it's going to be a good thing. Your thoughts. >> I think as Mike mentioned when he joined the company as well, right? The beauty of, what I didn't even realize, is that every time Amazon improves the platform, Druva is almost automatically benefited, given they're so, they really build on them. So when Amazon announced Snowball Edge, we were a launch partner with them, and third-party apps should be provision on Snowball Edge. I have a different take on the on-premise word than what the world think of. I think ultimately cloud or no cloud, it's all about helping the customer. If my understanding is correct, what Amazon is trying to do is to create a better way for customers to adapt more to public cloud, which is going deep in data center. There's a difference between doing enough on the edge to make the way for the cloud versus trying to do the legacy of going on-premise. So as Amazon creates that corridor for the option, Druva's naturally a good fit for it and part of it. >> Yeah, certainly that being cloud native with AWS is going to give you guys a good lift. Kind of a lay up question there. Let's get into the customer latency question, 'cause this has come up, expect to hear this a lot as well. Latency matters, latency certainly is a key criteria. Why the on-premise strategy? I would say Snowball, they're kickin' the tires. They did the VMware RDS deal on-premise, then so, this was not like an awakening for Amazon, they were going down that road. A little bit more deeper. What is the impact to customers, in you guys' opinion, of the move from Amazon? What's your thoughts? How deep in the enterprise does it go? How will this impact cloud migration? Is it going to change lift-and-shift to be more of a container strategy where you containerize it, then shift it? Some will not shift? What's your thoughts on the impact of cloud on-premise? >> So, I think there's three kinds of clouds. One is where you're trying to build any new applications in cloud which is where mostly Amazon comes in. Second is you can build a pre-made SaaS application. And third is the lift-and-shift. They're trying to still keep it tied to the data center, and putting some local in the cloud. And the third category is where latency matters. And just like virtualization, the last critical app to be virtualized was Exchange and SQL, right? When Exchange got virtualized, the data center opened the door, right? >> Yeah. >> The last critical app left in the way for major clouded option is, seems like Oracle. So which is where our RDS on-premise announced, which is where latency becomes key if you have to adopt some of those financial applications being built in the cloud where hyper-critical latency or uptime is needed. So that's a last hinge for some of the large enterprises to see more clouded option. >> Mike, talk about the product innovations. So people that don't know Druva, they see a lot of hype out there in this market. A lot of advertising, a lot of funding, venture-backed funding, you guys are startup. Pretty competitive. Where are you guys winning? What are the key innovations in the product that you guys have? Take a minute to explain your key value for your customers. >> Well, the first thing I think we want our customers to remember is if you're moving your workloads into an Amazon environment, or you're adopting cloud, we're the only natively architected solution. So just like you would have bought, a competitor for example in the VMware space, you're going to buy Druva because of its advantages to scale with Amazon in terms of its compute, to be able to allow you to tier into the various storage options that they create almost on a quarterly basis for you. But beyond all the infrastructure basics, we are converging services that otherwise were separate silos on-premises. So if you are a customer of one of the legacy providers, and you needed eDiscovery, you bought an eDiscovery product. You needed archive? You bought an archive product. You got backup, you bought backup product. The beauty of having a file system in the cloud is you can buy all of those operations against a single object store. So the definition's changing, we're offering that advantage. >> And one more point to it is also the go-to-market strategy. You saw David McCann this morning talk about Marketplace and how it's going to reshape the selling motion for them. And he mentioned Druva as the key Marketplace partner. With also tooling, or retooling the go-to-market motion of how customers wants to best buy a SaaS service and not a hardware, software model, impacting the real agility and time to market for businesses. >> Are you guys in the Marketplace? >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. >> You guys are on to something really big here and I think it's not well understood, the industry yet. I want to just think out loud for a minute. You mentioned that I got to buy eDiscovery, siloed app. 'Cause that's the old way. I mean, cloud's kind of a horizontally scalable fabric. Some of the best solutions aren't pure plays. So you guys are I think the first company of its kind that kind of is not in a category. I mean, I see how you want to be in a category. Gartner has the Magic Quadrant, backup and recovery, okay. You got to be in some and you win that one, you get some good marks on that. But cloud is more, it helps, maybe it could be leading backup and recovery, but it's not a solution for that. Just delivers value that happens to be for backup and recovery, powered by software. >> That's right. >> So this is the cloud dynamic of having the kind of scale. This is a whole new paradigm of software development. Your reaction to that, do you agree? >> Tell-- >> I totally agree. And I think you hit on two very important points. You know, one is data is a platform in the cloud, now it's a surface that you can operate on. You can add services, you can integrate with ecosystem services. Not everything is going to come from Druva. But unlike competitors, when you are with Druva, we are going to enable you to work with those providers. I think the second one, and the one, personally having come from an ISV environment, is this. If I have a great idea today, 65% of my customers wouldn't be in production with my idea for 2 1/2 years. >> Yeah, the time. >> That model's gone. If Amazon announces a service today as Jaspreet mentions, we want our customers to be taking advantage of that with their data today. >> Talk about the impact of the ecosystem that you guys are seeing, just thoughts on the industry. Jaspreet, you seem to have been around them. You've seen the movie a few times. What's coming? Because if these net-new workloads, again, you're going to hear Andy Jassy talk about this on the keynote tomorrow, new net-new workloads. AI's being powered, ML is being powered by compute availability. So that changes that industry. Kind of a slow, stuck in the mud for 20 years AI. You see Lumi's been around for not new science. But with compute, new magic happens. This the dynamic. What's your thoughts on the ecosystem. Those old solutions are going to die. There's going to be winners and losers. Who are the winners and who are the loser? >> I think the time will say how people take on the challenges. We believe that three core changes coming to cloud. One is serverless computing. In a big way. To drive the cost down of computing dramatically. And also converge the whole networking storage compute in a single mine center. Second is machine learning, or what in Druva we call AI of Things. How machine learning will be like mobility of 10 years ago to impact almost every single piece of software to make it smarter. >> Machine learning first is going to be a new trend. >> Exactly. >> We just called it right now on theCube. ML first. (Mike chuckling) >> And then the third trend is going to be around the nature of enterprise to analyze content. The whole Spark, or Kafka, or, the entire availability of metadata on your fingertips to sort of mine information, the available data, data on the platform, is going to be a predominant thing in the future. So put them together, the possibilities are limitless. You have a data platform which you can mine more cost effectively to the serverless, and be a lot more effective through machine learning. >> I think you guys are a data platform without a doubt. You're not backup and recovery. It's just one of the things you happen to do. And you need a category to start with. I mean, this is a data platform. And you're seeing that all over the place. I just saw a presentation from the FBI, counter-terrorism, they just can't put the puzzles together fast enough on these investigations 'cause the databases are everywhere. So just latency, talk about time to value, just ridiculous. Bad guys are winning. IT is going through the same thing. >> I think software in general has moved away from proprietary and more toward open standards, and so you're going to look for solutions that enable an ecosystem, that don't lock you into a container for one purpose, and we're taking a hold of that trend. >> Alright, guys, real quick, we going to end this segment. What's going on with Druva? Quick plug. How many people? What's on the roadmap? Where's the new innovation, where's the disruption coming? >> You take that? >> Roadmap, 600 people and growing. And the company was just an exciting place to be. Jaspreet mentions one of the most important things. Customer's think about three things. How much does it cost me? It it reducing my risk, or making me more agile? And we're focused on all three. You'll see us, serverless architecture's going to continue to reduce costs. Adopting Amazon storage tiers is going to help our customers reduce costs. From the making them better point of view, you're going to see more eDiscovery, legal hold, performance is going to improve, integration with premises, we got a lot going on at Druva. >> Lambda is so much faster than spitting up an instance, that's for sure. >> That's right, that's right. >> Your thoughts, final word. >> I think data science and machine learning is a big core focus of Druva. I think we have over 100 petabyte in management today. About, as he said, about 600 employees and growing very, very rapidly. How we monetize this 100 petabyte with the cloud through us, with customers, know how our knowledge is a big focus area for us. And also the data born in the cloud. The focus has shifted to your point of newer clouds. How do we tackle the new world clouds? Born in the cloud, born outside the core center of data center, and tackling those. A big focus for us going into next year. >> Congratulations, guys. Jaspreet, I know as founder it's always hard to stand up a company. You guys are doing well, congratulations. You got the right architecture, you got the right product roadmap. Congratulations, I'm looking forward to hearing more. Cloudification, new workloads, scale. This is the new buzzwords around competitive advantage and value. It's theCUBE bringing you all the coverage here from re:Invent. Stay with us for more after this short break. (futuristic beep) (futuristic electronic music)

[Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] hi I'm Stu minimun with wiki bond and welcome to another wiki bond the cube digital community event this one sponsored by Dell EMC of course it's a big week in the industry VMware is having their big European show in Barcelona VMworld and while we are not there in person we have some news that we want to dig into with Dell EMC so like all of our digital community events we're gonna have about 25 minutes of video and then afterwards we're going to have a crowd chat we're gonna have a panel where you have the opportunity to dig in ask your questions give us your viewpoint and talk about everything that's going on so it's important to pay attention think about what questions participate in the crowd chat afterward and thanks so much for joining us talk about the business issues of the day to help us frame this discussion I'm happy to welcome back to the program Pete manka who's the senior vice president with converged infrastructure and solutions engineering at Dell MC Pete great to see you great see you Tuesday all right so Pete converged infrastructures come a long way you and I have a lot of history in this space you know more than a decade now we've been in here so but from a customer standpoint you know this has matured a lot I wouldn't want you to start out give us the customer perspective you know what was convergent restrictor designed to do how is it living up to that and you know what's the state of it today sure well as you said we've got a long history in this and ten years ago we started this business to really simplify IT operations for our customers and we tried to remove the silos between storage compute and networking management and we're doing that we created this market called converged infrastructure by converging the management of those three siloed operations in doing so we added a tremendous amount of value for our customers fast forward now over the years earlier this year we come up with a product that the BX block 1000 that allows us to scale considerably greater within a single environment adding more value to our customer we're very customer driven at Dell EMC as you know and so we talked to our customers again and said what else do you want what else do you want and they pushed us for more automation in more monitoring support for the product and that's really what we're here to talk about today is how we get from simplifying IT operations for customers through allowing scale architectures to eventually automating the customers environment for them yeah when you talk about simplification that the the industry has really been really galvanized gotten really excited at hyper-converged infrastructure and I hear simple that's kind of what HCI is gonna do Dell of course has both converged and hyper-converged we've talked a lot as to how they both fit maybe now you know give give us the update as to you know the relevance of CI today while HCI is still continuing to grow really that sure yeah HDI is a hot market obviously and it is growing fast and customers should be excited about HDI because it's a great solution right it enables the customers get an application up and running very quickly and it's great for scale out architectures you want to add symmetric type nodes and skill oh you're at your application your architecture it's great for that but like all architectures it doesn't fit all solutions or all problems for the customers and there's a place for CI and there's a place for HCI the end you think about HCI versus CI CI is great for asymmetrically scaling architectures you want to have more storage more networking more memory inside your servers more compute you can do that through a CI portfolio and for customers who need that asymmetrical scaling for customers who need high availability very efficient scale type storage environments scale of compute environments you can do that through a CI platform much more efficiently than you can through other platforms in the market alright Pete you mentioned that there was announcement earlier in the year that the VX block 1000 so for those that don't have hauled of history like us that followed from the V block of the BX block and now the 1000 helped remind us what was different about this from things in the past sure when we first started out in the conversion structure business we had blocks that were specific to storage configurations if you wanted a unity or v-max you had to buy a specific model of our of our VX block product line that's great but we realize customers and customers told us they wanted a mix environment they wanted to have a multi-use environment in their block so we created the VX block 1000 announced in February and it allows you to mix and match your storage sand bar along with your compute environment and scales out at a much greater capacity than we could through the original block design so and we're providing the customer a much larger footprint managed by within a single block but also a choice allowing them to have multiple application configurations within the same block all right so people now what what's Del DMC doing to bring converged infrastructure for it even more how are we expanding you know what it's gonna do for customers and the problems they're looking to solve yeah right so again we went back to our customers that said ok tell us your experience with block you tell us what you like tell us what you don't like and they love the product it's been a very successful product they said we want more automation we want more monitoring you want the ability to see what's happening as well as automate workflows and procedures that we have to do to get our workloads up and running quicker and more automated fashion so what we're gonna talk about today is how we're going to do that we're going to provide more automation capabilities and the ability to monitor through our VM work you realize suite toolset alright great Pete I appreciate you helping kind of lay the groundwork we're gonna be back in a quick second one of your peers from Dell MC to dig into the product so stay with us we'll be back right after this this quick break [Music] vx block system 1000 simplifies IT accelerates the pace of innovation and reduces operating costs storage compute networking and virtualization components are all unified in a single system transforming operations and delivering better business outcomes faster this is achieved by five foundational pillars that set Dell EMC apart as the leading data center solutions provider each VX blocks system 1000 is engineered manufactured managed sustained and supported as one welcome back joining me to dig into this announcement is Dan Mita who's the vice president of converged infrastructure engineering at Dell EMC damn thanks for joining us thanks for having me all right so Pete kind of teased out of what we're doing here talked about what we've been building on for the last ten years in the converging infrastructure industry please elaborate you know what this is and shuttle from there yeah absolutely so to your point we know customers have been buying VX blocks and V blocks for the last ten years and there's lots of good reasons behind all of that we also know that customers been asking us for better monitoring better reporting and more orchestration capabilities we this announcement we think we're meeting those challenges so there's three things that I'd like to talk about one is we're gonna help customers raise the bar around awareness of what's going on within the environment we'll do that through health checks and dashboards performance dashboarding real-time alerting for the first time the second thing we'll talk about is we talked about a different level of automation than we've ever had before when it comes to orchestration we'll be introducing the ability to set up the services necessary to run orchestrated workflows and then our intention is to bring to market those engineered workflows and lastly would be you know analytics deeper analytics for customers that want to go even further into why their system is drifted from a known good state we're gonna give them the capabilities to see that great so Dan I think back from the earliest days that you know Vblock was always architected to you know transform the way operations are done what really differentiates this you know how important is there are things like the analytics of you're doing yeah sure so you're right today our customers use element managers to do most of that what this tool will allow them to do is kind of abstract a lot of the complexity folk in the element managers themselves if you think about an example where our customer wants to provision an ESXi host add it to a cluster and you say a Power Max bulan we know there's about a dozen manual steps to do that it cuts across four element managers and that also means you're going to be touching your administrators across compute network storage and virtualization with this single tool that will guide you first by checking the environment taking you through an orderly set of questions or inputs and then lastly validating the environment we know that we're going to help customers eliminate any undue harm that might do to an environment but we're also gonna save them time effort and money by getting it done quicker ok so Dan it sounds like there's a new suite of software explain it exactly what is it and how do all these pieces fit together yeah so there's three pieces in this week foundational is what we call the X blocks central so the X Box central is going to go out mandatory with all new VX blocks we're also going to make it available to our customers running older 300 500 and 700 family the X blocks and we'll provide a migration path for customers that are using vision today that's the tool that's going to allow them to do that performance health and RCM compliance dashboarding as well as do metrics based in real-time alerting one loved one step up from that one layer up from that is what we call the X block orchestration so this this product is being built underneath the V realize operations or excuse me orchestration tool and it's essentially like I said it's going to provide those all of those tools for setting up the services to run the workflows and then we'll provide those workflows so that example that I gave just a minute ago about provisioning that host will have a workflow from that right out of the gate ok so you mentioned the the vir ops thing you know VMware has always been a you know a very important piece of the whole stack there's yeah be in front of everything in the product line while you're announcing it this week at you know vmworld your and you know explain a little bit more that integration between the VMware pieces so you mentioned V Rob's and that's the third piece in this suite right so that is that it's going to provide us the dashboarding to provide all of that detailed analytics so if you think about it we're using V realized opera orchestra ssin as a workflow engine we're using V ROPS for that intelligent insight into the operations as a framework for the things that we're doing but essentially what we've given customers at this point is a framework for a cloud management or a cloud operations model sitting on top of a converged infrastructure alright Dan thanks for explaining all that now we're gonna throw it over to a customer to really hear what they think of this announcement when we started to talk about the needs to innovate within business technology and move forward with the business we knew we had to advance our technology offerings standardize our data center and help bring all our technology to current date vs block allowed us to do that in one purchase and also allowed us to basically bring our entire data center ten years forward with one step the benefits we've seen from the X block from my side of the house I now have that sleep at night capability because I have full high availability I have industry-leading technology the performance is there their applications are now more available we now have a platform where we can modernize our entire system we can add blades we can add storage we can add networking as we need it out of the box all knowing that it's been engineered and architected to work together it has literally set it and forget it for us we go about our daily business and now we've transitioned from a maintenance time set and a maintenance mindset to now we can participate in meetings to help drive business innovation help drive digital transformation within our company and really be that true IT strategic partner the business is looking for with the implementation of VX blocks central upcoming we should be able to get a better idea of what's going on in our VX block through one dashboard we're very sensitive about the number of dashboards we try to view do the whole death bi dashboard situation especially for a small team we really believe yes block central is going to be beneficial for us to have a quick health overview of our entire unit encompassing all components as we discussed additional features coming out for the VX block one of the more interesting ones for me was to see the integration of VMware's be realized product into the VX block most importantly focused around orchestration and analytics that's something that we don't do a lot of right now but as our company continues to grow and we continue to expand our VX block into additional offerings I can see that being beneficial especially for our small team being able to you know or orchestrate and automate kind of daily tasks that we do now may benefit our team in the future and then the analytics piece as we continue to be a almost a service provider for our business partners having that analytic information available to us could be very beneficial from a from a cost revenue standpoint for us to show kind of the return on investment for our company one of the things that we kind of look forward to that the opportunities of VX block is going to give us given the feature set that's coming out is the ability to use automation for some of our daily business tasks that maybe is something as simple as moving a virtual machine from one host to another that seems pretty mundane at this point but as our company grows and workloads get more complex having the automation availability to be able to do that and have VMware do that on its own it's going to benefit our team always love hearing from customers I'm Peter Burris here in our Palo Alto studios let's also hear from a very important partner in this overall announcement that's VMware we've got OJ Singh who's a senior vice president and general manager the cloud management business unit at VMware with us AJ welcome to the cube thank you Peter of that to be here so Archie we've been hearing a lot of great new technology about you know converged infrastructure and how you do better automation and how you do better you know discovery and whatnot associated with it but these technologies been for around for a while and VMware has been a crucial partner of this journey for quite some time give us a little bit about the history absolutely you know this is a as you rightly pointed a long history with a VMware and Dell EMC goes back over a decade ago I started with Vblock in those days and we literally defined the converged infrastructure market at that point and and this partnership has continued to evolve and so this announcement we are really excited to be here you know to continue to announce our joint solutions to our common customers you know in this whole VX blocks 1000 along with the vitalife suite well the VX block Hardware foundation with VMware software foundation was one of the first places where customers actually started building what we now call private clouds tell us a little bit about how that technology came together and how that vision came together and how your customers have been responding to this combinations partnership for a while absolutely if you think about it from a customer standpoint they love the fact that it is a pre engineered solution and you know they have to put less effort and doing the lifecycle management maintenance of the solution so as part of kind of making it a pre engineered solution what we've done is you know made it such that the integrations between the VX block and visualize are out of the box so we put some critical components you know are of course the vSphere and NSX in there but in addition to that for the virial I set we have vro Orchestrator already built in there we have a special management pack that gets into detail dashboards that are related to the hardware associated with the X block also pre integrated in there so that if via ops runs in there it'll automatically kind of figure that as a dashboard out and can configure them and then finally we have VRA or you know an industry-leading automation platform that allows you self-service and literally build a private cloud on top of the X block so the VX central software has been letting or is now allows a customer to make better use of VMware yes similarly some of the new advancements that you're making within VMware are going to help VX bar customers get more out of their devices as well tell us a little bit about some of the recent announcements you've made that are very complimentary absolutely you know to some extent you know the V realized journey has been a journey about at the end of the day in enabling our customers to set up a self-managed private cloud and do large extent we're heading in the direction of what we say self-driving operations using machine learning technologies and all of that so in that kind of direction in that vision if you may we've actually now released with a great integration between VRA and via ops that for the first time closes the loop between the two solutions so that you can start to do intelligent workload placement right depending upon if I'm trying to optimize for cost I'm trying to optimize for tier of service you know whether it's bronze silver gold tier service I'm trying to optimize for software license management you know Oracle license is only going on Oracle tier etcetera this closed-loop with policy ensures you do that and that's the first step in this direction of self-driving that's a very important direction because customers are gonna try to build more complex systems based on or support more complex applications without at the same time seeing that complexity show up in the administration side now that leaves the last question I have because ultimately the two of you are working to make together to make customers successful so tell us a little bit about how your track record your history and your direction of working together in support in service to customers is going and where you think it's gonna go absolutely so we continue to work very closely in partnership and as partners we are committed to support our customers through thick and thin you know to make sure that they can have these engineered pre-engineered clouds set up so they can get the benefits of these clouds lower cost to serve you know in terms of highly efficient workload the fact as much as possible in the you know let me tell about of hardware that's available and at the same time the automation and the self-service that enables the agility so the development teams can build software quickly I think provision software really fast so those are the kind of benefits lower cost agility but in partnership jointly serving our customers RJ Singh senior vice president general manager of the VMware cloud management business unit thanks again for beyond the cube thank you Peter glad to be here Stu back to you all right thanks Peter for sharing that VMware perspective to help understand a little bit more some of the customer implications we're back with Dan and Pete Pete we talked about there's new management there's a few different software packages is this exclusively for the new generation of VX block 1000 or you know who the existing customers will be able to use this sure I mean obviously advanced management features are important to all of our customers so we specifically designed the Xbox central to run both on existing VX block customers and of course in our new VX blocks that were a lot of the factor as well alright so Dan we've talked about the progress we've made the the you know great maturation in these solutions set what's next what customers expect and what should we be looking for from Dellums in the future so this the thing with us is always data center operations simplification if you think about it what we're introducing today is all about simplifying and provisioning and management of the existing system within the system we've heard also from customers what they look for us next to do is to try to improve the upgrade process simplify that as well so we've already got some development efforts working on that we'll be excited and news for later this year or early next year janna follow-up went dance that we always talked to our customers about what they're looking for in addition to more automation and we're monitoring support they want to go to consume their resources in a more agile environment cloud like a farm and even on-premises so that combined with the be realized suite of products we're going to be providing more cloud live experience to our customers for their yeah walks in the future alright Pete and Dan thank you so much for sharing this news we're gonna now turn it over to the community so you've heard about the announcement we've been talking for quite a long time at wiki bond about how automation and tools are gonna hopefully help make your job easier so want you to dig in ask the questions what do you like what do you want to see more of and so everybody let's growl chat great

>> Hello everyone, I'm John Furrier cohost, founder Silicon Angle media, we are here in our Palo Alto studios for cube conversation with your Juergen  Linder, who's the senior vice president of Oracle SaaS. You're getting great. Great to see you again. Thanks for coming in. Appreciate, uh, the time senior vice president of ERP, SaaS, you handling all the business aspects of the Oracle cloud is correct. And you'll lots happening. What's the big, the big story right now? >> Well, here at OpenWorld, it's, it's a little bit of a kid in a candy to your point, I do think it's fantastic that we can store. I mean, showcase our innovation capacity. What we have really done and you're going to see most of those announcements are around how we pervasively infuse emerging technology into our product lines. So not just a sidecar concept, but productizing out use cases where customers can reap an immediate business benefit as of day one. So allow me maybe to plow through some of those. There is a lot of it, um, what's happening and one of the big ones is certainly around cloud ERP. If it's a huge investment for us, we'd like to think it's the most strategic SaaS investment you will ever do. From that perspective. We're very committed to make sure that the emerging technology is applied for business impact. What I mean with that is take examples such as, um, intelligent payments. So imagine you have a cash surplus all of a sudden, which is a great position to be in, but two, how do you allocate it to strategically cultivate supplier relationships based off in the moment data based on machine learning suggestions. Think about the change that we're seeing out there in terms of business models. I mean product as a service is a completely different model in which our companies need to operate. So this entire motion of shipping transactionally into going into a service provider model is huge for a lot of companies and oftentimes they have multiple business models to cater to. So big announcement, this open world is subscription management, which is a unique offering where we have really plowed together the combined strengths of our customer experience cloud to handle seamlessly the customer facing interactions. So sales, service, marketing type of pieces. But teamed up with our ERP offering to really have all of the billing, the renewal cycles, the um, revenue recognition seamlessly solved in one offering. So big announcement for us. >> So on the subscription management is that for the ERP years at Oracle Cross, all oracle portfolio products are specifically ERP. >> It's both actually, it's, it spans the customer experience piece, but it's also natively embedded into the Oracle ERP cloud to have it a seamless experience because we don't think that you can solve subscription management in isolation. Oftentimes you feel vendors who does it on the customer experience side, but then you'd still need to have the backend features to make sure that you can deliver on the promise that you do understand the customer intimately, that you could do effective up cross sell and handle the renewal cycles. Constantly tap into the customer sentiment to see if they're happy and just see them grow. So we'd like to think it's really a combined effort between what we have as customer experience and the ERP side >> I mean, this brings up a great point because I think you're hitting on the major trend that's happening around Oracle open world, certainly in the industry right now that is integrating a lot of different functions. I mean ERP, they want knows ERP was lifted the days that's really critical software and it powers the business. It's not going anywhere. What people are concerned about, how do I extend the capability of the data that I have? Yes, and cross connected so that it's seamless, so I want to just go a little slow on the subscriber management thing. So what you're saying is you upgraded subscriber management so that the customer can manage their piece of their business without mangling or changing or tweaking any of are taking me through that. I was at. How are they rolled that out? What's the use case of that >> I think this is important to hit on the key point which is data mean. specifically? They give an example. What Oracle always has been synonymous with is owning, managing and securing the world's data. We'd like to live on that heritage for a while because we think it's fundamentally differentiating. If you want to bring those emerging technologies to life for outcomes, um, since we're covering all lines of businesses in the cloud and are ready to go today, it brings us into a very unique position to really stitch together data points very elegantly across a unified data platform, right? Where data travel seamlessly. Because if you think about a subscription business, there's so many aspects that goes into that. Think about conducting, collecting sensory data based on Iot. >> A lot of databases are out there and you have multiple databases you're hitting. >> Oh absolutely. So we want to make sure that obviously any data that we're collecting about the usage of a given product allows us to find tune the business model for subscription. If we have the customer or if the company made a decision to go into a subscription model, it's huge from a revenue recognition perspective, how do you report that out? It has to do with how do you service the customer constantly predict and anticipate the very next move four up and cross selling type of mechanism. So it's a big movement. >> Customer intimacy used to be a cx problem, now it's an integrated data problem and it's interesting because, you know when I broke into the business when I was graduated from college, the word data processing was a department when you guys were in the database business mean data processing now is a core competency that's not limited to one siloed system or one abstract system like an ERP or cx. It's managed to everything. So you have to do data processing because that's the value. So if, if that's the case and more data is coming to the marketplace, you need machine learning, you need to have the tools. So I gotta ask you Oracle Open world, you guys are doing some announcements around Ai. What's the impact to ai particular or using or managing whether it's symbolic systems, which is a little bit different in ai reasoning. Is is a thing processing and reasoning around the data now you need ai for that. So what are you guys announcing around ERP, oracle cloud and ai? >> So it's fundamentally that, to your point, I had the pleasure of implementing ERP system at customer side on the sis side. I had problems or challenges in my business career to bring them to life on the software development side, but fundamentals have stayed the same. You need to have data consistency and as a complete view of the business. Now, to your point, I'd like to think that machine learning and emerging technologies at large provide a new canvas on how you can create and look at every single business process as we know it so you see us talk about it because I'm all about intelligent process automation in the ERP context. What that means is if you take a typical company, about 85 percent is spent on keeping the lights on, closing the books, doing all of the in hyphened, mundane but necessary stuff, and 15 to 20 percent is typically dedicated towards innovation of new business model. Serving customers with new business model or just being the change agent that typically the finance function wants to be. I mean, there's a reason, for example, why Kraft Heinz had a cfo or has still has a CSR, was 29 years old. They're not hired necessarily for the seniority they hired for the change ability. >> The culture change is both business culture and there's also tech culture that culture cloud, native agile data at the center of the value proposition. Now culturals is about expectations I I need it relevant. I mean it's a commitment problem to needed. I need it fast. solve too as well on both business skills gap and also technical. >> I mean to your  point, I mean kid in a candy store is like the the best way I can describe it. I think every single business process and in the nineties we had this big theme of business process reengineering. You know that I'd like it comes back on steroids right now because you can simply look at every single business process once again and see where the human element and the machine or a robotic element can simply provide superior outcomes. Think about use cases of detecting fraudulent spend more easily like machines are simply better at that. We have to admit that if we can liberate the human potential at large and tap into the ingenuity by liberating them from the mundane and shifted you towards value at, that's huge. So our commitment of infusing machine learning and ai constantly in every single business process and learning from your decision like John, if you have the same workflow and you approved it 99 times, the system should start taking a hint. It doesn't mean hard coding and rewiring the work flow. The system automatically should learn from your behavior. So this is what we talk about, intelligent process automation. It also extends into what we call intelligent process performance management where our entERPrise performance management cloud is very sophisticated and analytical capabilities, but now it's taking it to the next level of prediction, learning, anticipating, constantly and suggesting actionable results. So a lot of things and chatbots for expenses is the entire communication with the system. It's just branded in a way where I say, when is the last time you had an intelligent conversation with your ERP system? A lot of people would say never. >> Well, I think people would love to get more value out of the data. And certainly the work that ERP systems have done as foundational mechanisms or plumbing or infrastructure and software is critical. Data's in there, right? So, yes. But the interesting topic that's becoming apparent and Oracle, you've, you guys lived this and you know at, uh, your other career at sap client server had a great growth when heterogeneous network started to appear, correct? So heterogeneous is a word that's not just a customer problem, it's an oracle opportunity as well because you have to be heterogeneous in an mov yourself. >> Absolutely. >> Then that's the data is the bridge of your internal system. So it's not just here's your oracle, between all of that. So now you have heterogenaity around all go buy some European, deploy it in the customer's heterogeneous environment. You gotta have a heterogeneous integration than Oracle into a cloud environment for the customer, makes it more complex, but the data becomes the key asset. >> Data is the key asset. And this is why we took decisive steps about a decade ago to really rewrite from scratch for the cloud. So we're really not trying to get away with hosting or legacy into the cloud because I think it's a fundamentally flawed strategy, right? So we also learned from what I call typical SaaS, one point old patterns where certain vendors tackled one business problem in isolation, but then it's upon the customer once again to stitch it painfully together with all of the risk it has like security risks, um, data silos that you so desperately trying to run away from comeback on steroids in the age of multicloud. Right? So it's oftentimes what we're seeing is that tactical cloud adoption, our customer and prospect conversations give way to more strategic longevity type of SaaSs consideration. And this is where we think we have a great story to tell by having everything in the cloud. Every line of business re architected for the cloud, but then of course the entire stack So of course we want to make sure that everything that comes out of Oracle depth to support it. works best stitched together. But by all means, it's really that we acknowledged that customers have heterogeneous environments that were open to connect, extend any type of starting point a customer might have. >> So one of the things I've been impressed with Oracle and the previous announcements is your affinity towards some of the emerging tech you guys aren't afraid to, to run at a new environment. And Larry Ellis was classical old with Larry. We'll wait until he sees clear And because you got a big business, you've got zillions of customers, visibility that he'll run hard at it and it's been fun to watch. uh, and you're modernizing and real time. But the big change that's on the market is the blockchain. You guys got some announcements happening around here at Oracle Open? Correct. And you made an announcement earlier what new things are coming out with blockchain because blockchain actually is a database model. It's a little bit decentralized, but it has great use cases, low hanging use case, independent of all the hype and uncertainty around cryptocurrency. But certainly blockchain is an enabling. Technology will impact your world. What new things you announcing here? >> For me, that's likely the most fundamentally disruptive technology heading our way. To your point, still a little bit at the infancy compared to other emerging technologies, but the profoundness of change with this new trust fabric is just massive for every single business process as we know it. Um, so when we discussed with customers, it's really that we try to give our customers a headstart for immediate business impact, meaning we're shipping applications, productized use cases. So the announcements this week are really around intelligent track and trace, making sure that any given point in time, you know exactly where in the supply chain you're product is, what are the handover points all documented seamlessly. You see an announcement around what we call the intelligent cold chain, big topic for some pharmaceutical companies, for example, or food and beverage, right? To have refrigerated products where you need to prove that they never surpassed the temperature threshold. For example, in the supply chain document that via supplied via block chain, we have, um, what we call warranty and usage as a use case. Just simplifying the settlements, the claim processes for any type of things here. So we have multiple more that are in the labs right now. Take an hcm use case, for example, where everyone of us had some educational experience, right? And we want to make sure that the hiring process becomes as if, uh, did you go to the school, you said you went, you know, your supply chain, you know, your journey in life as a, as a value chain. I mean the first universities are actually posting the certificates, unblocked chain so that you have this immutable record and the entire vetting of credentials in the hiring process, which is so cost intensive time intensive could be shaved off seeming as >> One of the things I'm personally passionate about and then release our video businesses that one of the big problems that's going to becoming great fast as deep face tampering with video. One of the things that we're thinking about it, how to put our videos on the blockchain to look at whether it's been tampered or not. Absolutely. Because you know, you can take this video. Could you say something that because this big, this legit problem was verified. So again, this is a verification about it and people want to know, did the produce come from that? Certain lawyers production, certainly manufacturing operations is Qa issues. This is real. These are real world examples. This is not like some pie in the sky hyped up. Tulip craze >> Funny you mentioned that we actually have an innovation panel on Tuesday afternoon where we have, for example, one of the largest food manufacturers in the world building on our blockchain cloud services. Those types of use cases and just amazing what we're seeing in terms of the impact emerging technologies can have and quite frankly business impact we're going to see out of that. >> I think I personally think, and I'd love to get your reaction to this because it's something that we talk a lot on the cube allowed in is good feedback on is that you're going to have to explain yourself and have verification because there's a lot of black box processes that have to be an unexposed because people want to know the transparency of how things move through the system. Whether it's, whether it's fruit, whether it's videos, whether it's someone's resume or credentials, reputation. These are new ways that needs to be explained by algorithms. Yes, so now the black box is going to be opened up. This is an opportunity. It's a threat to a lot of people, so you're on. Do you agree with that idea that there'll be soon things will be explained and be able to be inspected eventually. >> Transparency is huge and as to your point, I don't think you can hide a lot of things going forward anymore, so everything becomes more transparent, but with enabling technology such as blockchain for example, they also become immutable into dispute to your ability to to, to, to, to alter the information flow becomes less so. It's both. I'm very enlightening in terms of having transparency, speeding up business processes and to your point also understanding the origin where something originated. We have a lot lineage, for example, as another blockchain applicant. Live lineage, you mean like production lots, production loads, for example in provenance, right? To really understand the genealogy example that understand the genealogy as to where, for example, certain parts of your supply chain really come from. Do they come from countries for example, where you shouldn't be doing business So it's all those types of things where you can always prove like maybe the with? Right. >> Chinese put a chip on a board and puts it in Amazon Apple Data Center. That's a supply chain concern. But I totally wouldn't you love to know where that motherboard is. I mean, this is, these are real world examples. If it went through to press the last couple of weeks, it definitely is. It's a real. Aws and apple have vehemently denied, strenuously objected to the claim. I refuted. I would, I checked it out, I think with the Bloomberg story wrong, but we know that there is hacking going But again, this is an example of, on, no doubt. as things are moving around a lot, whether their workloads are manufacturing, this is a data problem. >> It all comes down to data. I mean data is the ultimate weapon in this age where they were in right now, um, and the company that can help you best to have as much data meaning first party generated data, but then also complement that with, for example, Oracle data cloud, right? Really Privacy compliant. Third Party data points to have this contextual demographic, Geo geolocation type of context to really delight customer experience and compliment your own insight is massive and we'd like to think we have a great story to tell not only being to manage this data but also to Securitas data because data security is massive. I mean I have been a personal victim of the equifax hack, so since then I take it very much seriously. >> I mean not take credit card fraud on that. >> You had been to be honest, I mean like impact was less than I'd expected it, but it's still scary to see as to how fast your privacy can be compromised. Right? So you definitely want to make sure that be hacked and some advice we you want to be hacked. Just tell people you own a lot of big coin. You'll be hacking in a heartbeat. But this is the culture. Let's get back down to this core issue because Larry Ellison said a couple open oracle liberals will go, that security should be always on. Yes. And this is a fundamental concern. So you know, as you guys look at bringing this customer experience together, bringing the unity of the data together. Um, I mean there's a lot of oracle products out there. You got, you got ERP and hcm, you've got cx data, cloud, all these things are out there, right? So bottom line, that's SaaS cloud for Oracle. What is the, what's the mission, and simplify it for us. What if I'm a customer? I got a lot of Oracle, I have some oracle, maybe I want more or less or I don't And what's the value proposition for oracle cloud's SaaS solutions? know. Bottom line. >> In a nutshell, it's about future proofing the business of our customers. I'd like to think that cloud is in hyphened the inevitable destination for us to serve the customers and our prospect base at large to help them just be ahead of the curve in either driving innovation, taking advantage of data points to turn it into a competitive advantage and having this quick ability on a quarterly basis to surface as innovation, but don't leave the customer alone with standalone innovation platforms. Sidecar concepts by making sure we have a holistic architectural approach to surface in the context of the business when you need it and making sure. So for us it's really the fundamental way how we can better serve our customer base and our prospect base and we'd like to think that the decisiveness of the architecture we have chosen about a decade ago brings us a lot of advantages right now where customers are realizing tactical cloud adoption was trust. One, LOB is short lift potentially, so they're looking at holistic cloud suites and we have everything in the cloud plus we have the architectural depth to really surface and actually tackle any business problem right now, not as a promise and a couple of years and then also keeping a roadmap, making some extensibility. >> Alright. Personal question. You're again. What are you personally excited about right now? Obviously you've seen a lot of ways of innovation with sap. Now you're at Oracle, you've seen the client server wave, you're now on the cloud wave. What are you personally excited about this next modern infrastructure and software environment as it starts to evolve, that big wave is coming? What's most exciting for you? >> For me, it's really the possibility to re think about every single business process as we know it. It's so fundamental, those technologies, machine learning, constantly learning from your decision that the experience at large, how you interact with a system. We're so conditioned in consumer life that you ask a question, you get this instant gratification of a response. This is exactly the type of experience we're going to see an entERPrise systems as well. So I do think the demographics, the requirements into an ERP system, an entERPrise system at large have changed and we're excited about the ability to serve that up now on a quarterly basis with speed and also customer responds of course, right? Because SaaS for us as a fantastic opportunity to get instant feedback, we can do ab testing, we can immediately see as the, what's used, what's not used. Right? So for us as a vendor, I think we have to be on our toes because I mean there's no hiding in SaaS, right? I mean either you deliver or your don't. Yeah, it's incident. Um, so there's a lag time of shipping info, innovation, safeguarding our customers, and I think we have a great story to tell for customers who have invested with us already in the past with on premise investments, how we can shepherd them into the cloud era at the most predictable type of timeframe caused everything. You mentioned one word which was key unity, which is one of the announcement I forgot to tell customer experience, unity in the past. I think what we have seen on the customer experience side is oftentimes that vendors have taken an approach where you had sales service, marketing, commerce, oftentimes siloed cx. Unity is really our fundamental commitment to making sure that the data management of every single dynamic touchpoints we have with a customer is constantly live up to. But do your point. I think oracle has a fantastic set of cards to deal with customers to help them in any starting point of their journey right now. Not In the future, no re architecture needed. We can take that right out to them. >> I think Oracle is a great opportunity with the data play. I'll see databases, not a foreign concept, the word database, um, data processing, real time. I mean, I think the integration, you guys have a good opportunity and great to great to see you and thanks for spending a QP, appreciate anything, keep conversations. You're lending there. Who's the senior vice president? Oracle SaaS cloud here in the studio, Palo Alto. A lot going on around Oracle. OpenWorld happening. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching.

(uplifting music) Hi, I'm Peter Burris. Welcome to another CUBEConversation from our wonderful studios in beautiful Palo Alto, California. Once again, we got a great topic today and we're going to be talking a little bit about the role that security is playing in multicloud. Now to have that conversation we've got Hari Krishnan here with us. Hari is the Senior Director of Product Management for security at Nuage Networks which is a division of Nokia. Hari, welcome to theCUBE. >> Glad to be here, thank you. >> So here's why this is so important, Hari. A lot of people for years have been talking about how, data is going to move to the cloud. Well, there's certainly going to be some of that. Increasingly, people are recognizing it. The more important strategy or the better strategy, think about how we're moving the cloud services to the data. Which means we're going to have multicloud. And as we think about moving data around making data more of a primary citizen within the business, and certainly within the networking world. It means that we have to think differently about the role that networking plays in that multicloud, specifically around security. Talk to us a little bit about first Nuage Networks, who you are? And then let's get into this question of what does it mean for networking, security in this multicloud world? >> Absolutely. I know it's a great, great question, thanks, Peter. So first of all, Nuage Networks. We are a business unit within Nokia, and we are sort of the SDN arm, if you will. Software Defined Networking and security for both data center branch and goes without saying in the multicloud era, we provide solutions that are both secure, as well as connect these an end to end multiple environments across these spread networks, both from a branch perspective as well as from from a data center and cloud perspective. >> So these are all the locations where activity is going to happen, therefore data has to be there, but they still have to be in a connected way. So talk to us about this challenge of networking in a multicloud world. Because it's not all one way. It's going to be all ... It's going to be a very, very complex arrangements of resources that have to be brought together with performance, flexibility and security. What does that require? >> Yes,that's a great question. So we have a lot of customers. We talked about our enterprise customers who have gone down this multicloud plat because they have workloads, and as you said workloads and data, and based upon the application, they are making choices for a particular cloud. Some of them may be more analytics oriented, they chose a particular cloud environment for that workload. So they have workloads invariably across multiple clouds. In addition to that they have a large set of those assets and key assets and data that are residing in their private data center as well. And they are looking at how they can provide better connectivity to these cloud applications from their branch. So as you rightly put, the problem is how do you do that in this sort of heterogeneous environments? And today a lot of the solutions are siloed. What you find is you have multicloud networking and security solutions, but they don't really tackle the problem of connecting these branches or SD-WAN, that SD-WAN vendors focus on. But they really don't address these cloud challenges. So really there are these silos that we find in the enterprise. We also see vendors going in and offering solutions that are focused on particular environments, maybe containers, for example, or maybe specific types of virtual machines. But really from an enterprise perspective, their assets and data are everywhere, and they are in different forms. So what Nuage set out to do from the very beginning, was to provide a platform that really connects these regardless of where these workloads reside, and these workloads can be heterogeneous. Really whether it is containers, whether it is virtual machines, whether it is bare metal, whether it is on-prem or in the public cloud. And really that's really been our core focus, and we have had a lot of success working with service providers on the SD-WAN, and we just announced as SD-WAN 2.0 which is really about more than connectivity, providing IT services over these IP networks, whether it is about visibility, analytics, security. So again, our platform-based approach lends well with not only addressing the SD-WAN use cases, we also have a presence with large customers, large enterprises as well as with cloud service providers using our platform for private cloud offering as well as public cloud offering. >> So if we kind of think about the problem statement. We're talking about a world that is increasingly dependent, from a digital business standpoint on the role of data is going to play. Increasingly thinking about how that data interacts with each other and how we secure that data, because that's the basis for making it private. With a lot of new workloads on the horizon and a lot of new resources that could be running those workloads, whether it's virtual machines or containers or anything that might come along in the future. And the networking has to be flexible enough that it can handle those new classes of workloads, those new notions of data and data security and the new resources, many of them software that are coming on to create these applications. Have I got that right? >> Absolutely. So your networking has to be flexible enough and your security model has to be fundamentally different. And what I mean by that is you know we have a perimeter centric approach earlier which is sufficient if you have all the workloads in one location You know, the workloads in this. >> So perimeter centric is sufficient if the device is the first citizen of the network, right? >> Absolutely. >> So keep going, I'm sorry. >> Absolutely, so with workloads as they are moved around and especially you know in a cloud environment or in a very dynamic environment such as in a container environment, these are spun up and down. The architecture needs to be more tied to the workloads and data. Security needs to be tied to the workload, and we call that the workload centric security model. And again, fundamental to this is the notion of as Forrester talked about zero trust, which is again about you know not assuming any trust, just because your workload is in a particular location, and you cannot allow certain users to just, you know access that workload because by virtue of it being in a particular location as an example, right? So really it should be tied to the workloads, and if the workloads are moved around, the policy should move with the workload. And again fundamental to this is again a change in the architecture, where the policies are enforced closer to the workload, the policies independent of where the workload resides, and the policy should govern not only a particular environment or set of environment, such as multicloud, but access from anywhere to that workload. By that I mean a user can come in from a branch, and we want to make sure that that branch user is only able to access that workload, regardless of where workload resides, right? So today if you look at it, the solutions are very siloed in the sense that you have micro segmentation implementations in a particular environment, but they really don't tie in the policy end to end. They don't do end to end segmentation from the branch to the data center. And that's really where we focus on, is providing this end to end approach to securing workloads and data, regardless of where the workloads are coming. I would say for example, if your workloads and data are moved to Mars, your policy should be able to move with the workload and secure it, right? It's really location independent. >> But fundamentally it's that security capability has to move with the workload. >> Absolutely. >> That's really what the customer... That's really what the enterprise wants. They want the security capability where the policy and some of the other resources that you're talking about are what provide that capability. >> Absolutely. >> And John Kindervag is a very, very smart guy. Ex-Forrester guy who came up with this notion zero trust. Great ex-colleague. So if we think about it, we've got this problem statement that increasingly the world's becoming digital, and now we have to make the workload and the data the first citizen. That's going to require a new architectural approach, new types of technologies, Nuage is the vanguard of providing that approach. Let's get into some of the examples. How are customers using this today to improve their security and avoid problems of the past. >> Absolutely. So, we have, customers who are using this. And I'll give you some examples of it right. And a lot of the customers when they look at us, they really see the architecture as a key advantage, being able to provide end to end security across heterogeneous environments. And I'll give you some example. They typically have a starting point, right? I mean, that's, you know, I'll give you an example of one of the large financial customers we are working with. They are looking at securing workloads in public cloud. And this is a container environment running OpenShift and Kubernetes, and they want to be able to secure the workloads. One of the key requirements in the public cloud is that, and this goes hand in hand with zero trust notion, is that they don't want to actually trust the public cloud vendor and regardless of who their vendor is. So they want to encrypt all the traffic between workloads in the public cloud, not only segmentation and getting full visibility into it, but also providing encryption. And so for for them, you know, what Nuage offers is the ability to do exactly that. We can secure these container workloads in the public cloud. We can enter the communications between the workloads. We brought in the same encryption mechanism that we had, you know SD-WAN into this public cloud, to solve this use case. And not only that, we can also securely connect those public cloud workloads to their on-prem legacy data center. For certain applications they need to connect back into the data center. And so we have a consistent policy model, with security, segmentation, visibility and encryption. That's a great example of from a public cloud and the multicloud example. The other example is in a traditional data center. Often times and this is again a large enterprise, who is currently deploying this micro segmentation technology and for them they don't have sufficient East-West protection within the data center. And so where Nuage comes in is the ability to be able to provide security that is again tied to the workload, and their environment is very heterogeneous. They not only have ESXI, they have a lot of bare metal. They have some KVM deployments. So they are looking for a common way to provide security for the workloads, regardless of what virtual machine type it is or what form factor the workload is. >> And it doesn't diminish the characteristics of those resources that they use because they provide certain advantages to using those resources. >> Absolutely, absolutely. I mean a lot of the key workloads and data that they have, some of them are in, you know, bare metal. Running in bare metal, right? It's a lot important for them, to be able to secure those workloads and do that in a way consistently because you have containers that may be communicating with an infrastructure service which is running on bare metal, for example. So how do you do that in a unified way? And that's really where you know we come in as providing the single policy, unified policy and visibility, in this heterogeneous environment. So that's an example of micro segmentation, a traditional data center. Another great example, and we have lots of service providers who are offering this as our SD-WAN service, where we provide secure connectivity with more than connectivity, but also providing visibility and analytics. So they can look at all the communication from the branch, not only to other branch locations, but also to workloads in the cloud. SAS is a is a great use case, local internet breakout to these cloud applications. So we provide security there and again, we have service providers who are offering this as a service. I mean, we have now several of them. BT-tellers and several service providers, that are offering our SD-WAN service. And just I think a couple of days back we announced the SD-WAN 2.0, where we are providing security, providing visibility, enabling value added services beyond just connecting with the SD-WAN environment. So those are some of the use cases beyond, you know, a single siloed environment. We're encompassing public cloud on-prem data center, but also more importantly, connecting workloads from branch to data center as well. >> So the last thing I want to do, is I want to ask you one quick question about the relationship between, with the evolving relationship between security, models, architectures, SOCs, and networking architectures, models and NOCs, and many people saying that they should be separated. We tend to think that that's a bad idea. But talk to us a little bit about how the evolution of security and networking comes together, especially as we think about both of them, starting with analytics, understanding having a discovery and remediation palette, so that the networking telemetry is informing security, the security telemetry is informing networking and you get a reasonable high quality response, no matter where you are in the organization. >> Absolutely. And you're spot on. I mean essentially networking and security combined will give much better value in terms of use cases protection, but also detection and response. And Gartner has been preaching this in adaptive security architecture which is really around, you know using, having a prediction model which is base lining based upon telemetary, based upon other sources of intelligence that you get and using that to drive protection. And just because your workloads are protected or micro segmented, doesn't mean that attacks would not go through. It's not a matter of when you're.... whether an attack happens or not, it's really when you are attacked, right? >> Well we've discovered the bad guys are patient. >> Absolutely and they'll continue to to find new ways to attack it. And so it's not just about prevention, but also using the intelligence, sources of data in the network to be able to detect and then take an action. Really, this has been referred by Gartner and in the industry as a sort of adaptive security architecture, which really requires a mindset change from sort of this incident response to a continuous response model, right? And we think that software- >> Driven by analytics? >> Exactly. And analytics is really the core of this. Because Analytics helps drive policies, but also helps detect new types of attacks. So really network has a very key role to play here because network is the source of truth. You see a lot of these attacks that are manifested in the network, and we can use this data. We can mine this data to be able to better prevent but also detect and respond quickly to these attacks. And again the change in mindset from sort of an incident response mindset to a continuous response mindset, all built upon this rich analytics that your network provides. >> Hari Krishnan, Nuage Networks talking about the relationship between security, networking and multicloud. Thanks very much for being on theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> And once again this has been a CUBEConversation. I'm Peter Burris. Thank you very much for listening. Until next time. (uplifting music)