>> It's The Cube covering Fortinet Security Summit brought to you by Fortinet. >> Hey and welcome back to the cubes coverage of Fortinets championship series. Cybersecurity summit here in Napa valley Fortinet is sponsoring the PGA tour event, kicking off the season here, and the cubes here as part of the coverage. And today is cybersecurity day where they bring their top customers in. We got Glenn Katz SVP, general manager, Comcast Enterprise Solutions. Glenn, thanks for coming on The Cube. Thanks for taking time out of your day. - Thank you no This is great. This is great. >> Interviewer: Tell me to explain what you guys do in the Comcast business enterprise group. >> That's our Comcast business. We're a part of Comcast overall. I always like to explain what Comcast really is. If you look at Comcast, it's a technology innovation company by itself that happens to focus on communications and media type of, of markets, right? And if you look at the Comcast side there on the communication side, it's really everything residential with customers. Then there's the us Comcast business and we're the fastest growing entity over the last 15 years within Comcast. And we started in small business, voice, video, and data to small businesses. Then we moved up to provide fiber ethernet type of a transport to mid-market. And then my group started in 2014. And what we do is focus on managed services. It doesn't matter who the transport layer is for enterprise Fortune 1000 type companies. And then when you layer in all these managed wider network services. So that's my business unit. >> Interviewer: Well, we appreciate it we're a customer by the way in Palo Alto >> Glen: Oh great >> So give a shout out to you guys. Let's get into the talk you're giving here about cybersecurity, because I mean, right now with the pandemic, people are working at home. Obviously everyone knows the future of work is hybrid now you're going to see more decentralized defy and or virtual spaces where people are going to want to work anywhere and businesses want to have that extension, right? What people are talking about, and it's not new, but it's kind of new in the sense of reality, right? You've got to execute. This is a big challenge. >> Glen: It is - What's your thoughts on that, >> Well it's a big challenge. And one of the things that I'll try to, I'll speak to this afternoon here, which is at least from the enterprise perspective, which includes the headquarters, the enterprise, the branch locations, the digital commerce, everywhere else, commerce is being done. It's not just at a store anymore. It's everywhere. Even if you only have a store and then you have the remote worker aspect. I mean, they do that to your point earlier. We're not in that fortress sort of security mentality anymore. There's no more DMZs it's done. And so you've got to get down to the zero trust type of network architecture. And how do you put that together? And how does that work? Not just for remote workers that have to access the enterprise applications, but also for simple, you know, consumers or the business customers of these, of these enterprises that have to do business from over the phone or in the store. >> Interviewer: What are the some of the challenges you hear from your customers, obviously, business of the defend themselves now the, the, the attacks are there. There's no parameters. You mentioned no fortress. There's more edge happening, right? Like I said, people at home, what are the top challenges that you're hearing from customers? >> So the biggest challenge, and this is, I would think this is, this is mostly focused on the enterprise side of it is that the is two interesting phenomenons going on. This is sort of beginnings before the pandemic. And then of course the pandemic, the role of the CIO has been elevated to now, they have a real seat at the table. Budgets are increasing to a point, but the expertise needed in these, in these it departments for these large enterprises, it's, it's impossible to do what you were just talking about, which is create a staff of people that can do everything from enterprise applications, e-commerce analytics, the network. How do you secure that network all the way down to the end users? Right? So it's that middle portion. That's the biggest challenge because that takes a lot of work and a lot of effort. And that's where folks like Comcast can come in and help them out. That's their biggest challenge. They can handle the enterprise, they can handle the remote workers. They can handle their own applications, which are continually trying to be, you know, have to be it's competitive out there. It's that middle area, that communications layer that their challenged with. >> Interviewer: Yeah. And John Madison's EVP, CMO Ford. It's always talking about negative unemployment in cybersecurity. Nevermind just the staff that do cyber >> Glen: That's exactly right, that's given. If you're a business, you can't hire people fast enough and you might not have the budget for you want to manage service. So how do you get cyber as a service? >> Glen: Well, so it's even bigger than that. It's not just the cyber as a service because it's now a big package. That's what SASE really is SASE is Secure Access Service Edge. But think of it where I think of it is you've got remote users, remote workers, mobile apps on one side, you've got applications, enterprise or commercial that are now moved into different cloud locations. And in the middle, you've got two real fundamental layers, the network. And, and that includes uh, the actual transport, the software defined wide area, networking components, everything that goes with that, that's the network as a service. And then you've got the secure web gateway portion, which includes everything to secure all the data, going back and forth between your remote laptop, the point of sales. And let's say the cloud based applications, right? So that's really the center stage right there. >> Interviewer: And the cloud has brought more service at the top of the stack. I mean, people thought down stack up stack is kind of like a geeky terms. You're talking about innovation. If you're down stack with network and transport, those are problems that you have to solve on behalf of your customers And make that almost invisible. And that's your job >> That's our job. That's our job is to service provider What's interesting is though back in the day, I mean, when, I mean, back in the day, it could have been 10 years ago in 20. You really, you know, you had stable networks, they were ubiquitous, they were expensive and they were slow. That's kind of the MPLS legacy TDM. Yeah. So you just put them in and you walked away and you still did all your enterprise. You still did all of your applications, but you had your own private data centers. Everything was nicer. It was that fortress mentality right now. It's different. Now everybody needs broadband. Well guess what? Comcast is a big company, but we don't have broadband everywhere. ATT doesn't have it. Verizon doesn't have it Charter doesn't have it. Right. So you need, so now to think about that from enterprise, I'm going to go, I'll give you an example. All of our customers to fulfill a nationwide network, just for the broadband infrastructure, that's, you know, redundant. If you want to think of it that way we, we source probably 200 to 300 different providers to provide an ubiquitous network nationwide for broadband. Then we wrap a layer of the SD wan infrastructure for that, as an example, over the top of that, right? You can't do that by yourself. I mean, people try and they fail. And that's the role of a managed service provider like us is to pull all that together. Take that away. We have that expertise. >> Interviewer: I think this is a really interesting point. Let's just unpack that just for a second. Yeah. In the old days, we want to do an interconnect. You had an agreement. You did, you have your own stuff, do an interconnected connect. >> Glen: Yep. >> Now this, all this mishmash, you got to traverse multiple hops, different networks. >> Glen: That's right >> Different owners, different don't know what's on that. So you guys have to basically stitch this together, hang it together and make it work. And you guys put software on the top and make sure it's cool is that how it works? >> Glen: Yeah. Software and different technology components for the SD wan. And then we would deliver the shore and manager all that. And that's, that's where I really like what's happening in the industry, at least in terminology, which is they try, you have to try to simplify that because it's very, very complicated, but I'm going to give you the network as a service mean, I'm going to give you all the transport and you have to don't have to worry about it. I'm going to rent you the, the SD wan technology. And then I'm going to have in my gateways all these security components for a firewall as a service, zero trust network access, cloud brokerage services. So I will secure all of your data as you go to the cloud and do all of that for you. That's really what we, that's what we bring to the table. And that's what is really, really hard for enterprises to do today. Just because they can't, the expertise needed to do that is just not there. >> Interviewer: Well, what's interesting is that first you have to do it now because the reality of your business now is you don't do it. You won't have customers, but you're making it easier for them. So they don't have to think about it. - [Glen] That's right. >> But now you bring in hybrid networking hybrid cloud, they call it or multi-cloud right. It's essentially a distributed computing and essentially what you're doing, but with multiple typologies, >> Glen: that's right. >> Interviewer: I got an edge device. - [Glen] That's right. If I'm a business. - [Glen] That's right. >> That's where it could be someone working at home >> Glen: That's right. - Or it could be my retail >> Or whatever it could be. So edge is just an extension of what you guys already do. And is that right? Am I getting that right? >> Glen: Yeah that's exactly right. And, and, but the point is, is to make it economic and to make it really work for the end user. If you're a branch, you may have a, a application that's still being run via VPN, but you also need wifi internet for your customers because you want to use your mobile device. They've entered into your store and you want to be able to track that right. And push something to them. And then you've got the actual store applications could be point of sales could be back of house comparing that's going up to AWS. Azura whatever. Right. And that all has to be, it all has to come from one particular branch and someone has to be able to manage that capability. >> Interviewer: It's funny, - Its so different >> Interviewer: just as you're talking, I'm just thinking, okay. Facial recognition, high, high bandwidth requirements, >> Glen: Huge high bandwidth requirements >> Processing at the edge becomes huge. >> Glen: It does. >> So that becomes a new dynamic. >> Glen: It does. It's got to be more dynamic. It's not a static IP end point. >> Glen: Well, I'll give you another an example. Let's say it's, it seems silly, but it's so important from a business perspective, your quick service restaurant, the amount of digital sales from applications are just skyrocketing. And if you yourself, and particularly in the pandemic, you order something, or that goes up to the cloud, comes back through, goes to the point of sales. And then the, the back of house network in a particular restaurant, if that doesn't get there, because one line of you only have one internet connection and it's down, which sometimes happens, right? You lose business, you lose that customer. It's so important. So what's being pushed down to the edge is, you know, reliable broadband hybrid networks, where you have a primary wire line and a secondary wire line, maybe a tertiary wireless or whatever. And then a box, a device that can manage between those two so that you can keep that 99.9, 9% availability at your branch, just for those simple types of applications. >> Interviewer: You know Glenn, you as you're talking most people, when we talk tech, like this is mostly inside the ropes, Hey, I can get it. But most people can relate with the pandemic because they've ordered with their phone on - [Glen] Exactly right >> With the QR code. - [Glen] That's exactly right >> They see the menu - [Glen] That's right >> They get now what's happening - [Glen] That's right that their phone is now connected to the service. >> Glen: That's right >> This is not going away. The new normal. >> Glen: No, it's absolutely here. And what I've seen are there are many, many companies that already knew this and understood this pre pandemic. And they were, they had already changed their infrastructure to really fit what I was calling that network as a service in the SASE model, in different ways. Then there were a bunch that didn't, and I'm not going to name names, but you can look at those companies and you can see how they're, they're struggling terribly. But then there was this. Now there's a, a much bigger push and privatization again, see, I was sending, Hey, I asked for this before. It's not like the CIO didn't know, but management said, well, maybe it wasn't important. Now it is. And so you're seeing this actual amazing surge in business requests and requirements to go to the model that we're all talking about here, which is that SASE type of implementation high-speed broadband. That's not going away for the same reason. And you need a resilient network, right? Yes. >> Interesting. Best practice. Let's just take that advice to the, to the audience. I want to get your thoughts because people who didn't do any R and D or experimentation prior to the pandemic, didn't have cloud. Wasn't thinking about this new architecture got caught flat-footed. -Exactly. >> And they're hurting and or out of business. >> Correct. >> If people who were on the right side of that took advantage as a tailwind and they got lifts. >> That's exactly right. >> So what is the best practice? How should a business think about putting their toe in the water a little bit or jumping in and getting immersed in the new, new architecture? What advice would you give? Because people don't want to be in the wrong side of history. >> No, they don't. >> What's your guy's best practice? >> I may sound biased, but I'm really not trying to be biased. And this'll be some of the I'll speak about here later today. You have to try it. You, as the end user, the enterprise customer, to, to fulfill these types of needs, you've got to really probe your managed service providers. You've got to understand which ones, not just can give you a nice technology presentation and maybe a POC, but who's going to be there for the longterm who has the economic wherewithal to be able to give the resources needed to do what I was talking about, which is you're going to outsource your entire network to me and your sh, and a good portion of your security for the network to a service provider. that service provider has to be able to provide all that has to be able to have the financial capabilities, to be able to provide you with an operating type of model, not you have to buying equipment all the time. That service provider has to be able to have teams that can deliver all of that 200 to 300 different types of providers aggregate all that, and then be there for day two. Simple thing. Like if you know, most companies, if you're not a really large location, you can't afford to, you know, double types of routers that are connected. And if one fails you have fail over, right, most of them will have one router and they'll have, but they'll have two backup paths. Well, what happens is that router or switch, single switch fails? You need to have a meantime to repair a four hours. I mean, that's kind of basic and well do that. How do you do that? You've got to have depots around the entire country. These are the types of questions that any enterprise customers should be probing their managed service provider, right? It's not just about the technology. It's about how can you deliver this and assure this going forward. >> And agility too cause when, if, if things do change rapidly, being agile... >> Exactly >> means shifting and being flexible with your business. >> That's exactly right. And that's important. That's a really important question. And the agility comes from this financial agility, right? Like new threat, new box. I want, I want this old one. I'm going to upgrade to a different type of service. The service providers should be able to do that without me having to force you to go get some more CapEx and buy some more stuff. Cause that's number one. But the other agility is every enterprise is different. Every enterprise believes that its network is the only network in the world and they have opinions and they've tested different technologies. And you're going to have to adapt a little bit to that. And if you don't, you're not going to get out of this. >> It's funny. The old days non-disruptive operations was like a benefit, we have non-disrupt- now it's a table stakes. You can't disrupt businesses. - You can't. You can't at the branch at the remote worker. If you're on a zoom call or whatever, or you're on a teams call, we've all been there. We're still doing it. If it breaks in the middle of a presentation to a customer that's problem. >> Glenn thanks for coming on the cube with great insight. >> Oh great. This was fun. >> Are you exciting and plays golf? You're going to get out there on the range? >> I played, I played golf a lot when I was younger, but I haven't. And so I have a few other things I do, but I guess I'm going to have to learn now that we're also a sponsor of PGA, so yeah, for sure. >> Great. Well, great to have you on - All right thank you and great talk. Thanks for coming on and sharing your insight. >> This was great. I appreciate okay. >> Keep coverage here. Napa valley with Fortinet's Cybersecurity Summit as part of their PGA tour event, that's happening this weekend. I'm John for the Cube. Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, it's The Cube. Covering DevNet Create 2017. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Hey, welcome back, everyone. We're live in San Francisco for Cisco System's Inaugural DevNet Create Event. Which is an extension of their DevNet Developer Program. Which is the Cisco, you know, core developer program. Now, going out to the community to create, kind of, ingratiate into the DevOps developer world, connecting IOT and infrastructure together. This is The Cube's exclusive coverage for two days. Our next guest is Todd Nightingale, senior vice president and general manager of Cisco. Welcome to The Cube, I'm John Furrier. My co-host Peter Burris, welcome to The Cube. >> Thanks. >> Tell us about your group first. Just explain your division, what you guys do and why is it relevant to DevNet Create? I mean, you guys already got a massive developer program that's kicked off and growth within Cisco. Why DevNet Create? Why ingratiate out into the community and connect with these new developers? >> Sure, sure yeah. The Meraki business, it's cloud-managed infrastructure. We make wireless, switching, routing. And now phones and cameras and mobile device management. You know what we've realized is as simple to manage, simple to monitor, that our solution is, a lot of our customers, they want to do more. They want to expand and build custom applications. They want to leverage social logins. And do all kinds of different analytics on top of the infrastructure. The infrastructure is starting to be a part of a greater technology you know, digitization of their business, or their school, or their government. And really I think the lesson that we've learned over the last couple years is the key is to open up the platform. Is to have some faith in the community. Open up the platform and do your best to recruit, you know, best in class development teams from around the world. And once people can get more from your platform than others than they're going to flock to you over time. We're lucky, right, as a cloud managed solution, we've got all of our devices already being managed and monitored from the cloud. So for developers, it's very easy to develop on cloud APIs. >> So, they don't need to come in and be a total network guru. They just come in and leverage infrastructure as code for a gameable infrastructure, is that right? >> Exactly, yeah, rest APIs in the cloud. Just like you might integrate to a Facebook API or a Google API. You integrate to a Meraki API. And you're able to control the infrastructure, get analytics from the infrastructure, understand your locations better, all of that stuff. >> Peter and I always talk on The Cube about a couple concepts, but two are relevant. For this one, I'll give you a reaction to. One is internet scale now is going to a whole nother dimension. Cisco dominating with scale at the router level within internet one. But now, with internet and things, he brings up this concept of this known technology but unknown processing development. You mentioned new devices connecting. This is, like, a new connection point that needs to be managed dynamically. You don't know when they're going to come on and off. So, that's kind of cool. I'm going to get your reaction to that. Is that how you guys see the world? Because that really is IOT. New devices are connected to the network, they need a connection, they need power, and they need to be provisioned, managed, and allocated. They're throwing off data. This is a developer dream but also could be a nightmare. >> Yeah, look, I think that a lot of the story of networking has been this concept of, like, building a network, configuring it up just right, and then when it's perfect, you don't touch it. You're afraid you might break something. The concept of fat-fingering is so common, right? And so these networks are incredibly powerful but brittle. And that just can't be the way anymore. It has to be simple enough that people can feel that their network is nimble and changeable and can be configured and managed and changed over time to react to this stuff. I think the technology is getting better when it comes to simple and automated provisioning of IOT devices. We're tracking very carefully a technology called mud that allows for these devices to provision with a policy set by the manufacturer, and all that stuff. The real story is the networks were deploying today will have to be nimble. And they'll have to be upgradable from the cloud and be able to get better over time and make it easier and easier for people who have maybe a thousand users on their network today, they're going to have a hundred thousand devices on their network in five years. And they have to be ready for that. And be ready to continue to evolve over time. >> So, one of the things, that our researchers, we've talked to a lot of CIOs, is that they're moving to an orientation that's focused on elasticity, which might be no workload at any scale to what we're calling, plasticity. Which has very, very specific meaning, at least, in the physics sense. Not only are you able to scale up and down, but you're also able to reconfigure very, very rapidly. So, things will plop into a new shape that will sustain itself. And I want to know what you think about this concept. Not just elasticity, but plasticity. The ability for the infrastructure to reconfigure itself in ways that make sense and sustain that shape as the business evolves. >> Yeah, I think, look on the compute side, that's very real, right? When you think about load on different servers, with applications running across different clouds and data centers. This stuff has to be expandable and also, expandable in a controlled way, not just, you know, spinning up thousands and thousands of servers. And I think this concept of plasticity gets to that. It has to scale but in a controlled concept. When it comes to the infrastructure, the bigger deal is, the infrastructure is always optimizing whatever networking resources you have. There's only so much ban with coming to your site or to and from you cloud and all that stuff. And when the load starts to spike, and really explode over time, before you have the ability to find more ban with another service provider. What the infrastructure has to do is it has to automatically optimize your most important apps, you more important applications. Prioritize that through your network and optimize the rest to do its best in whatever limited resource it has. Infrastructure and network infrastructure, I think of this more of like resource optimization. And those algorithms having to be nimble. And to be honest, really dynamic, as the load spikes in different ways, over different times. >> I think it's a great point. But let me push you on this. But don't we also have to remember the patterns associated with that? So we can anticipate the infrastructure, can anticipate some of these spikes, time of month, time of day. In response to particular other business events. So, the infrastructure itself has to then, have a muscle memory associated with some of these things. So, that it can, again, kind of, constantly reconfigured itself to support what the business events that are becoming more obvious overall. So that we don't have to reconfigure them ourselves. Does that make sense to you? >> Yeah, I think, you know, we talk about this, sort of, next generation of network intelligence. And really using some type of machine learning to predict these type of events. To me, it's not just about, you know, automatically reconfiguring the infrastructure. But it's also about making the next recommendation about hey, the way your trends are going, you're really going to need, x, y, z change in the physical network in two months, in six months, in nine months. Predicting what will be the next shoe to drop and how IT managers will have to expand their network capacity in what ways. You know, I think that's really this concept of networking intelligence. It's a serious problem. I mean, the machine learning to understand these patterns and to be able to see through a lot of noise and really see what's happening is interesting. I think what app dynamics does for the application space, in, like, large day centers, understanding which code is being used more often and where your load really is happening. We're going to start to see some of those same, like, deep learning data analytics applications in networking. And I think it's exciting, I agree. It's an exciting space. >> Todd, I want to get your thoughts on something because we're before we came on camera about your background at MIT and Meroki, when it's got a start on the roots. You guys were hackers, okay? You were freedom fighters for the internet band. Which, by the way, we still have broadband starvation in this country, in my opinion. But I got to give you guys props for that. So, you got kind of a hacker mentality. But you talk about your journey, about how you group is, kind of, bringing in some group core IP. You're also, kind of, a global system integrator within Cisco, among the core IP. That's more important now than ever, as app dynamics collides with the Cisco infrastructure DNA. Can you share some insight on what it's like internally as Cisco? Because this is the classic, you know, decade and a half long argument within Cisco of moving up the stack. I mean, I've talked to many SBPs at Cisco, "We got to move up the stack." And, "No, we're good down here." You guys are moving up the stack, you're on of the hackers in there. I mean, technically, maybe not a hacker now. But I mean, mentality wise, you're looking at it differently. What's the different view? Share some color. >> It's been awhile since checked in any code. Yeah, look, I'd say there's a really great reality to inquire by Cisco. If you're in networking. And we focus a lot on adding value up the stack, putting things into the cloud platform, not just into the device and all that stuff. But if you're at Cisco, Cisco is holding on the richest infrastructure, IT infrastructure, intellectual property portfolio in the world. Almost indisputably, right? And as soon as you're acquired by Cisco, you get access to this immediately. We have, through different acquisitions, been able to leverage like, source fire amp and directory of modules, networking components from around Cisco. You know, since part of Cisco, we've been able to build stackable switching and aggregation, fiber switching, all this stuff. Deep, deep networking IP from all around Cisco. And like, I keep waiting for the bill to arrive. And it never has. >> It's your like Picasso, you got this canvass, you got freedom. >> There is a lot of teamwork there. You really have access to all of the intellectual properties. As a network hacker, it's a pretty amazing opportunity. So, we're excited about that. >> But the other thing it does is that you not only get access to all of this intellectual property, but you've got an install base that is so extremely relevant and is the basis for much of what the computing industry and computing world does now and for some extended time into the future. So, you've got a ready-made target of people ready to adopt. How do you think that your core professionals, on the networking side, are going to evolve their skills and their capabilities to make themselves increasingly relevant in this emerging world. >> You know, look, I think that's the story of definite. We see a lot of IT shops that have, you know, really deep infrastructure management capability. And as the infrastructure gets more automated or they start to use Meraki and it gets simpler to manage, they find themselves with time to finally focus on their own mission. Their mission is not, like, massive management of thousands of networking devices. CIOs care about education technology, or hotel technology, or restaurant technology. They finally have time to really work on digitizing the hotel industry, or digitizing schools in Latin America, whatever that happens to be. I really see them, like, moving up the stack. The skills of IT groups around the world are what really are moving up the stack. And all of a sudden, they're building apps. And they're, like, analyzing data and trying to apply machine intelligence to customer behavior. And everything that the promise of this technology used to be. First, we got to get out of the weeds. We got to simplify the infrastructure and get our IT shops out of that and into that business-relevant IT. >> It's also a mindset shift too. Again, you mentioned earlier, it used to be the network is fixed and brittle. And then you were constrained by what the network could provide you above. Now, the apps are dictating down to the networks. So, there's now a new model of app saying, "Hey, I don't need you to be "a provisioning configuration management guru, "on provisioning new devices. "I just want to get the network to do "what I need and not be an expert." That's ethos of DevOps. How is that playing forth for you guys, with DevNet Create out here? Give us some examples of how you guys are making that a reality and some of the directional things that you were working on. >> Yeah, it's a great example. You know, we have an awesome deployment in Mexico, called Mexico Conectado. And it's kind of near and dear to my heart. Federal buildings all over Mexico. The government funded, for the first time ever, internet access and all those sites with wi-fi for the building but also publicly accessible. And a lot of the sites they deployed, it was the first internet connection going into that building. Or maybe even for that town in rural Mexico. You know, deploying out at thousands and thousands, tens of thousands of sites all around Mexico. That could've easily been it. Just trying to make that work. Just the crushing complexity of that many devices and that many sites and a dozen different service providers managing it. By using Meraki, those guys were able to, you know, deploy it out, and really have it managed by the service providers but monitored by the government. And then, open up the APIs. So, that the government can actually analyze across all of those deployments. How the network is being used, what kind of utility they're getting in urban areas verus rural areas. Is this initiative really working that they're bringing, internet's really being used in locations it hasn't been before. Or are they just, kind of, subsidizing internet for well-connected cities already? And they're really getting to see that visibility and understand if they're really meeting their goals. Not just scrambling all day to get off the ground. >> Okay, question from the crowd. Thanks for sending in the questions. Go to crowdchat.net/devnetcreate. A question is, "What is the most important "DevOps practice to you?" And you can globalize for Cisco or in your view, just the industry, community. "Infrastructure is code, configuration management, "continuous delivery, automated testing, or other?" >> Todd: Or other? >> Other being fill in the blank. One that you might think. >> Automated testing is near and dear to my heart. (John chuckles) It's near and dear to my heart. If we didn't implement a strong, automated testing practice at Meraki, we wouldn't ship anything. (John chuckling) Well, if you think about infrastructure is code, obviously that's important to us because that's what we're building, kind of, is a programmable network using these cloud APIs. Maybe the one that I feel is missing from the list would be the real concept of new product instruction through an MVP process. And this concept of building the minimally viable product. So that you get it in the hands of users as early as possible and start getting real feedback. But one value proposition, one used case met, if you can find a way to get that into the hand of users or in the hands of paying customers and start to get that feedback, that's the day that you hire the first real product manager. No one knows what people really want than active users trying to get value out of your product. And trying to figure out and get that expert in on day one before you start development. Don't believe experts, you know, believe users. >> Todd, thanks for coming on The Cube. And sharing the inside, really appreciate. Final question for you. DevNet's been very successful at the Susie. And the team put that together. It's pumping on all cylinders. Just go live, big showcase there. DevNet created an augural event. As it progresses, what's the objective of this event? And how is it different than DevNext events in your mind? >> Yeah, look, I think, just as my opinion and this is how I see it. For a long time, infrastructure has been this closed ecosystem. You buy expensive networking IT infrastructure, you configure it using whatever CLI is available and, like, that's it. And new systems came into being, like, in the cloud, even modern CRMs systems. Like salesforce, modern POS systems, all that stuff. And they all were open platforms. But infrastructure lagged. It was always a close ecosystem. I think what DevNet, kind of, stands for is the opening up of that ecosystem. And allowing the network to, like, dynamically react to the needs of the business. And to really be controlled in a new way. DevNet create for me is, sort of, this is inaugural event of, sort of, Cisco really stepping out and declaring, this is going to be the way of the future. I think we're all going to be sitting here in five years down at Moscone as they tear down the super structure from a five thousand person DevNet create. And we're going to be saying, "I was here at the first one. "I was in San Francisco for the first DevNet." >> Present and creation. >> Todd: Yes, exactly. >> Well done, totally love the mission. I think it's super important. Again, they're not mutually exclusive communities, they're merging together and it's a rising tide, congratulations. Todd Nightingale, senior vice president, general manager of Cisco Meraki cloud automation. Loves automated testing, but again, that's many practices that DevOps eat, those infrastructure is code, developer freedom. That's the theme here. We've got the more live coverage. I'm John Furrier with Peter Burris, stay with us. (upbeat music)