live from San Francisco it's the cube covering Red Hat summit 2018 brought to you by Red Hat okay welcome back everyone live here in San Francisco California at Moscone West is the cubes exclusive coverage of Red Hat summit 2018 I'm John for your Cohoes with my co Sam John Troy co-founder of tech reckoning and as an analyst firm and community development advisory a next guests a star meter senior manager community leads at Red Hat welcome to the cube good to see you again so obviously the success of open source is grounded in community we'd love talking about community and there's a lot of new things happening new dynamics that are somewhat similar to us in the past but a new generation is coming into open source it's clear by the growth I mean go to any any event and you know just that the Linux Foundation event Jim's daylan's or is it to slide out exponential growth more code coming in so you know give to trot out all the ethos contribute be part of a project and so that the lines are still there but it's evolving and what's your thoughts on on it as it grows I'm looking at the big ecosystem here growing at Red Hat more contributors more projects more products yeah we definitely have the communities are growing and we have more participation and all the projects across the board and I think one of the things that's interesting is the the projects that we're working on are things that one person can't develop or use all on their own and we're talking like software-defined storage or talking OpenStack big solutions and so companies are paying people to work on them and I think over the last 10 years that's been the really big difference like our shares with Dirk at VM was heading up all their open sources and we just didn't Copenhagen and he was reiterating and reminding me because I found myself falling in the trap and a lot of new companies that come into open source I am gonna I'm gonna get people involved in a product I'm gonna join that project so we can commercialize the project versus commercialize their offering and being part of our project so Dirk when I were talking and he was emphasizing languages everything language defines behavior and that the project is an open contributed project on it the product that's commercialized is different and this is not new to read that but it's worth just reeling some of the language as new people come in your thoughts on this yeah so Red Hat we're really clear on what's upstream what's the open source version that everyone is working on together and then what's the version that we're supporting for our customers they have the same codebase they have the same features but the upstream version we call a project and the downstream version we call a product and sometimes they're even branded differently for example manage IQ is the upstream project in cloud forms Red Hat cloud forms is the downstream product and that's where the action is for Red Hat to to commercialize and or productize alright Lord and get all around it but then they contribute everything backups everything's developed upstream so you and you and the other community managers are you at Red Hat it's a little bit different right open source the open source way and open source ethos so you do have a you know these open source communities as well as user communities are you involved with both I mean how do you how do you meld the two how do you differentiate the two you know in the context of Red Hat if I'm a Red Hat customer yes so they're all the same or overlapping so usually you'll have a core group of contributors who maybe some maybe Red Hat employees some may work at another company that either a user company or a partner company some may be individuals working on it and it's kind of your core base but then you have like people that that are participating watching very carefully may be contributing once in a while that are watching that and then you have users and so they're not separate groups of people they're overlapping groups of people that's great the in terms of community here at the show right once you have community that's that's 365 right you come you come to an event and it's like kind of like homecoming so how has the experience been this year for you at Red Hat summit with the Red Hat community people coming together you know a community activities that sort of thing it's it's a really great place to bring people together so that we have all of our customers we have contributors and everyone is on the floor talking so like we're in community central here the floor and our booth has been full of people all day long even when they announce that it's closing there's still people around and talking and we have everything from customer events where we talk to customers about how we work on an upstream - actually that we've had contributor meetups where everyone gets together and meets all their fellow contributors in person how do you guys handle the growth because you know with with growth you have still new ideas coming in so you want to keep an open inclusive environment is there any new things you guys are doing they make sure all the best ideas are being surfaced up or is it the same program seems to think keep going that that way I think I think the best projects evolve over time so we're always looking at the governance of our projects and does it fit where that project is right now and so when a project first starts out it might have a benevolent dictator and then later when it has more contributors and more companies involved you might have even might evolve to a board or to a technical group so for example Gluster we just graduated to a group of maintainer x' that make decisions as opposed to just a project lead is there like a norm or is there a certain pattern that emerges for the puck the programs up I mean the project's having a certain format that you seen that works best or this is more ad hoc based on who's involved it's a little ad hoc but I think most of them start with a very strong personality who has a vision and so a lot of them start either as benevolent dictators or as you know someone who's the main project lead and then as they grow bigger over time you end up with more of a voting member to board of directors Stiles to like Apache and then now today there's a lot of foundations involved to write some some things are are in the Red Hat orbit more more closely others we you know like we were just at KU con so the all the Linux Foundation different the for instance the kubernetes the CN CF as well as stuff like you know the Cloud Foundry and OpenStack foundation so I mean can you talk a little bit about the role of foundations now in modern community in socially open-source yeah I think it's it's part of this evolution from all the contributors we're working as individuals which they still are two companies being able to to pay for people to work on these projects and so the companies want to not just give people time to these projects they also want to donate money and pull their resources to do joint marketing or to push kubernetes forward and so organizations like the CNCs the Linux Foundation enable those companies to work together more effectively if done a good job of balancing I mean they got a lot of logos I mean a lot of people paying them money so there's a commercial aspect but they've been very transparent about that trying to create a great core community and they've separated the technical steering committee from the membership which is smart most the foundations are really good about leaving the technical steering committee to work as it's worked well in open-source and then having the company has pulled their money for for marketing or for filling in the holes where they're not getting volunteers start go ahead well story I just wanted to extend the governance conversation a little bit to the culture as well the I mean we're we're in an interesting place again 2018 in our bigger culture those of us who've been involved in online culture and online communities we know the ways these things can go wrong and we've seen it you know how do you as an individual and your team develop and foster a inclusive and participatory culture in your in the communities of Red Hat I think he said we've all seen things go wrong but I think we also have a lot of experience now about how to foster the culture that we would like and how to include people and so you're seeing a lot more efforts like most online communities are pretty nice places to hang out these days and you're seeing a lot of effort to make sure there's code of conduct for the projects that there's kind of conduct for the events that people are welcome there's a diversity event tomorrow here and so I think we're seeing a lot more inclusiveness and a real effort to bring people in you guys attract a younger demographic we were talking earlier with Denise and because it's open source you got academic you could go as high school is seeing everything from robotics clubs - you know coding early on so you get the redheads getting the mirth for her Li and so she made the kind we're gonna grow our own talent so you know kind of a tongue-in-cheek but you guys have access to a lot of the younger developers any commentary on you know the orientation shop see their loved mission-driven act the younger folks love mission driven and tech but is there any kind of a new school kind of concepts you seen coming from the young guns that are coming up through the ranks so I recently had a chance to speak to a classroom full of college students and that was you really impressed like they knew what open source was they were familiar with licenses and they all wanted to like make their app or make money but they were really focused on humanitarian causes at the same time and so as you really impressed with that I want to do well in my career but I want to make a difference in the world in a better place on that I was really exciting the safe and now more than ever you with a global footprint we just had UNICEF on earlier here Red Hat labs doing some pretty cool things around you know code for good so I think that's cool the challenge we're seeing is is that okay as enterprises come in the continued balance has always been the case you don't want the big one vendor coming in for on their weight around and we're seeing like even with Java you know which is Oracle Java emails Oracle seeing movement that's kind of opening up so it seems the business model seems to be pretty clear opens winning we certainly think so at Red Hat the best model is to be open what's it like to work here it's a really awesome place to work I love all the people that I work with you know everyone red hat really takes the open-source culture not just to its codebase but also to the culture that it has within the organization and decisions are made openly discussed openly everyone gets input everyone doesn't always get to a vote but everyone gets to to have a say and it's listen to it it's a great place to work technical culture as well I'll see techies very technical - as the as the ecosystem grows right there's obviously a lot more participants in the community and so if a company wants to get involved either say like in the kubernetes community or in the openshift community you know what's the right way for a company to come in and participate in that kind of a community and and maybe what are some wrong ways if a company wants to get involved in the community I think the first thing they do is find them online right are they on IRC talking are they on flack talking join the mailing list go to whatever events are local to you your local meetups go to the big events if you can and just put people on it people that know what you're trying to do with it and can contribute you know either with getting started documentation or with bug reports yeah I think it does have to come down to the people you have to send actual people and it can't be some sort of corporate motion and in some ways community is all about people and making connections it's absolutely about people I start talk about your experience this year right had somehow see the numbers are bigger they're getting great the company's being rate reviews from financial analysts open ship has been very popular some of the obviously this is what kubernetes has been phenomenal o open stacks got a bunch of life into it you seen separation clear visibility now on how things are kind of clicking together on the app side core OS is in it's just interesting right is there it heads kind of going to a home of the level what's the conversations like here inside the hall people who aren't here watching didn't have a chance to come what's what's the main conversations the chatter what's been the focus in the community central booth I think the focus has been on how things work together like how our different products work together and how you can use them together as well as like how do I follow along like how do I participate if I want to know where our do is going where do I go to to be part of it what's the coolest thing you've heard here at the show and you could share story oh the coolest thing I've heard I don't know if I have a moment but it's just been all the conversations and like the fact that there's people flowing through all the time it's like standing room only in the booth because people want to talk there's a lot of action a lot of face-to-face engagement all right I do have a stir so we had um we taught these uh these red hat when she Boston and taught these middle school girls how to make cameras that open the hardware and open-source software has anyone talked to you about this no and so they made these cameras and then we flew a couple of them out here and they taught a group of people here at the events on Monday how to make so these 11 year olds twelve year olds taught them how to make cameras how to open hardware and open-source software and I was out talking to one of them about what was different about teaching it that that was probably my favorite moment it's hard to be teacher when yeah you got em together know the material yeah but that's paying it forward that's the open sore thief ethos yeah that's we're talking about sorry thanks for coming on the cube and sharing good to see you again congratulations on all the success and again the community is buzzing you guys are doing great and exciting so thanks for coming on and sharing appreciate it thanks for having me live cube coverage here in San Francisco for Red Hat summit 2018 I'm John Frusciante for stay with us day 2 coverage continues for three days of coverage after this short break be right back [Music]