>> Announcer: From the VMware campus in Palo Alto, California, it's the Cube, covering Women Transforming Technology. >> Hi, Lisa Martin with the Cube, on the ground at VMware in Palo Alto, at the third annual Women Transforming Technology event, we're excited to welcome to the Cube, Caroline Hubbard, an Analyst at LinkedIn, and the founder of ThreadBred, Caroline, nice to have you here. >> Thank you for having me. >> So you, as young as you are, you're a speaker at this event, you spoke in >> Caroline: I am. >> The Emerging Leaders Track, tell me the name of your session, and what >> Caroline: Yeah. >> Some of the key messages were that you delivered today. >> Definitely, my session was called, "Stand up, Stand Out, "How to Become and Advocate for Change in the Workplace," and my session detailed my experiences thus far, navigating corporate America, not only as a woman, but as a person of color, and some of the really eye opening experiences I've had, in terms of the toxic cultures that are rampant in our organizations across America, and through this experience, I learned really valuable lessons. And two of those lessons are that performance and how you're perceived can only take you so far in an organization; ultimately, if you're not in a place that values your identity, or values you for your differences, not just in spite of your differences, then your chances of success are going to be limited, and if you allow toxic cultures to eat away at your own perception of self, then you're going to be in even more dangerous positions. So I sort of talked about how I learned those lessons, and provided a framework for which we can all go back to our companies and bring awareness to issues that are affecting underrepresented people. >> How did you hear about Women Transforming Technology? >> Yeah, so since I've moved here, 10 months ago, I've just been taking the city by storm, networking, joining lots of women's groups, to just try to find women with similar experiences as me; I'm from the east coast, so I don't really have that many friends or a network out here, and that's what I wanted to build, so through one of the women's groups I'm associated with, I was speaking with a friend, who was like, "Well, you should check out this conference," so I did that; I went online, and I connected with one of the program leads here, and we were able to talk a little bit about my experience, and I was invited to speak. >> Fantastic. >> Yeah. >> And now you can say you've spoken at an event where Laila Ali spoke this morning >> Caroline: I know >> That's an honor (laughing) >> She was so inspiring, because you know, you look at a woman like Laila, who's >> Right. >> Who you think is just born with confidence, and courage, and she talked about how a lot of that is true, very innate, but there was times where she kind of has to recheck >> Caroline: Yeah. >> Kind of do a gut check, and say, "Alright, I feel like "I'm kind of nocked back a bit," >> Caroline: Mm-hmm. >> I loved her recommendations for you know, like the Boy Scouts, what, always be prepared, >> Caroline: Yeah. >> But the preparation is really key; have you found that to be something that helps you kind of harness your inner mojo, your inner confidence? >> Absolutely. >> Whether you're speaking at Watermark, or you're here. >> Yeah, absolutely, and I come from a performing arts background, and I spent a lot of time on stage, and I just found that throughout my life, being on stage energizes me, and being able to connect with people and be fully transparent is something that's really refreshing, but with that, comes a lot of preparation, and I've spent hours, actually, last month when I did a similar talk, my mother and I were up until five A.M. the night before a big speech, just working and making sure it was perfect, and deliver the right message. So I definitely agree, preparation is always key; it helps you feel confident, but like she said, there are times when preparation isn't enough, and you just feel a little bit unprepared or un-confident, and that's okay >> Yeah. >> What really matters is how you bounce back from those instances in which you don't feel as confident. >> I agree, I felt very validated with Laila Ali >> Caroline: Yes. >> Saying sometimes I don't always feel my best, so tell me a little bit, before we get into ThreadBred, I want to talk to you about a little bit about this program that you're in at LinkedIn, where you get to in finance, you get to work in different parts of the business >> Caroline: Right. >> Yeah, it's a really unique program, it's a two year long program, for people directly out of college, that gives you a lot of exposure across the company, so it's technically under the business operations organization, so your first year is split between rotations in sales operations and business operations, and then the second year, you can have more of an elective choice, where you can sort of dabble in product marketing or corporate developments, so it's a really unique experience in that it allows you to see multiple parts of the business, and currently, I'm on the consumer product growth team, which is responsible for getting people to use our app, and I also focus a little bit on our SEO strategy, so it's really opened me up to the world of tech, and how large scale enterprise companies work, which has been exhilarating. >> What have been your experiences, in terms of the diversity not just at LinkedIn >> Caroline: Right, right. >> But as you say, you've been in the valley now, for about 10 months. >> Yeah. >> What are some of the observations that you have made? >> Yeah, I think that a lot of the workforces, actual workforces are reflective of the actual diversity that's in the city, and if you look at the city, first of all, it's not very diverse, so it's kind of impossible for the organizations to have that same diversity, so it's been a challenge; I think that LinkedIn has done an incredible job, given the fact that there are not equal amounts of multiple different demographics, and I think LinkedIn is very conscious of the problem, and we're actively working to solve it, so I feel good about that, but I have noticed that in terms of gender, in terms of race, not everyone is represented on equal levels, and representation is so important, because for other people who are coming in future generations, you can't be what you can't see, so if there aren't people that look like you, you're going to be discouraged from pursuing an opportunity there, when that opportunity might be perfect for you. So I'm really empowered and passionate about trying to increase representation for all people in these organizations. >> It's refreshing to be at a conference like WT squared, because the accountability is so key, and what they announced this morning, with VMware investing $15 million into an innovation lab for women's leadership; the fact that they're together, expanding this stand in VMware >> Caroline: Mm-hmm. >> Relationship it's been over the last five years, but actively going to be looking at what are these barriers; the diversity barriers that women are facing, how do they identify optimal ways to eradicate those barriers? >> Mm-hmm. >> Because VMware knows, and the McKinsey report that was actually cited in the press release >> Caroline: Yeah. >> That they came out with this morning, companies that have more diversity at the executive level, are 21% more profitable. >> Caroline: Yeah. >> So they're understanding this is going to not just be benefiting our culture and diversity or our chief people officer HR function >> Absolutely. >> This is actually something that will benefit the entire company. >> Yeah. >> And what does this company deliver? Technology that other businesses and people use, to better our lives, so they get that, and that's saying refreshing is >> Yeah. >> Kind of an understatement. >> That is, yeah. >> But it really is nice to see companies that are willing to go, "Hey, we want to know exactly what these problems "are, so that we can then be strategic "in how we can solve them." >> Exactly, it is refreshing, and I think that more and more companies are realizing that diversity is not a luxury or just sort of a platitude, it's something that is intrinsic to the business, and to the health of the business, and the retention of employees, and as more and more people begin to realize that, I think that we will get better at increasing representation down the line. >> You know, I talked with a lot of women today and wanted to get their thoughts on the MeToo movement, Time's Up; in the last six months, that erupted on the scenes >> Caroline: Yeah. >> Unlikely alliance with Hollywood, and the resounding opinions have been, actually, that's momentum that we can take advantage of; we should be leveraging this, because when you have a platform that's that big, and that global, >> Mm-hmm. >> For an issue that affects every industry, including us in technology >> Mm-hmm. >> That they actually saw that as kind of an elevation of the platform >> Caroline: Yeah. >> I'm curious what your thoughts are about that. >> Yeah, I actually spoke about MeToo, and a couple of other social movements in my talk earlier, and one of the reasons I started my blog, ThreadBred, is because I started to realize this really unique cultural moment, in which I've emerged into the workplace, which has been characterized by these social movements, and a lot of these social movements have been galvanized through social media; social media's been able to bring so much attention to important issues, and shift public perceptions, so with MeToo, a movement that was founded by an African-American woman in 2006, and then it sort of gained more momentum in 2017 when Alyssa Milano tweeted it out, and then to have, a month later, Jackie Speier, congresswoman of California, introduce the MeToo Congress Act, you know, changes happening at such a rapid pace. More so than it ever has in the past, so I'm really excited to be a part of that, and I'm really excited that we are seeing this much progress on this rate. >> We need to keep that going. >> We need to keep it going, absolutely. >> Tell me a little bit more about ThreadBred. >> Yeah, so ThreadBred started in 2014, just as a fun, personal blog; my friends and I were getting our first internships, the summer after our Freshman year of college, and we were all in different industries, and couldn't really, or didn't know where to go in terms of where to get advice about what to wear, and of course, we wanted to make a good impression, so I just started creating outfits, dressing my friends up, telling them, this is what you should wear when you go here or there, and it sort of turned into this personal branding, as a young professional blog, and I started writing more about what are some of the experiences that young people have, directly out of college? What are some of the things they wish they knew before they started their jobs? And then I restarted it when I entered the work world now, and because of what's happening in society, I wanted to shift the attention to focus on these important social issues, such as women's empowerment, the representation of underrepresented minorities, and I've been able to have a lot of great dialogs with people that I know, and people that I have just met, who might have opinions that are different from me, and I think those are the most interesting ones, because they're the learning opportunities, and it sort of transformed into this story space, where we can consolidate information and learn from each other. >> I love that; one of the things that I thought was really cool, when I walked into the event today, was there's a headshot area >> Caroline: Yeah. >> And there's a resume writing clinic and a LinkedIn profile clinic, as well, and you kind of think, those are really foundational pieces to help someone have a professional looking photo, that doesn't have like somebody's arm that you need cropped out. >> Caroline: Absolutely, yeah. >> Or you know, a strong LinkedIn profile, especially if you're young, maybe just finishing with school and don't have a ton of experience; those are really important foundational elements, and it sounds like what you've done with ThreadBred, >> Caroline: Yeah. >> To advise young people on how should you look professional; that's a really cool thing that you've done, there. >> Caroline: Thank you. >> It's an area where you might think it's a small thing, but I think that can be very impactful. >> Yeah, it's kind of like the things that nobody tells you once you go in, it's just we're trying to capture all of that knowledge in one place, and share it with as many people as possible. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So if you look down, finishing in the next what, year or so, >> Caroline: Yeah >> Your two year program at LinkedIn. >> Caroline: Yeah. >> What direction do you think you'd want to go in? >> Well, I love LinkedIn, and when I interviewed, I actually said that I was like the physical manifestation of LinkedIn; I am a networking person, I love connecting people with opportunity, and I love LinkedIn's message of trying to create economic opportunity for the global workforce, and I think that it's really rare that you find a company that's for profit, that also has this really social impact admission, and I want to stay in this space as long as possible, but years down the line, I could envision myself being an entrepreneur, and starting my own company to focus specifically on problems affecting people of color and underrepresented people around the world. I think that that's what I've identified I'm passionate about, and that's what I want to pursue. >> I can feel that from you, so I think definitely entrepreneurial. >> Caroline: Thank you. >> Kind of in summary, what are some of the things that you're going to be taking away from this third annual Women Transforming Technology event? >> Yeah, absolutely, well, from the keynote earlier this morning, it's about listening to the inner voice inside of you, always finding that inner warrior as Leila Ali mentioned, because I think that's so important; I think life is about just having good days, and then having days where you're encountering adversity, and it doesn't matter how much adversity happens to you, it matters how you respond to that, so always leaning into that inner voice and then using your voice to empower other women around you, who might have similar experiences, but who don't necessarily know how to navigate the same situations is where you can be most helpful, so supporting women and always finding your inner strength is what I'm going to take away from today. >> I love that; I'm going to borrow that from you, that was fantastic >> Caroline: Okay. >> Well, Caroline, you're going to be a big star, I can already tell >> Caroline: Oh, thank you. >> It's really nice to hear someone that's so young, that sees the opportunities here, and wants to very naturally, make a difference in it; you're one to watch, >> Caroline: Thank you. >> For sure. >> Thank you. >> Lisa: Thanks for joining us. >> Thank you. >> We want to thank you; I'm Lisa Martin with the Cube, we are on the ground at VMware, at the third annual Women Transforming Technology event, thanks for watching. (upbeat techno)

(electronic music) >> Announcer: From the VMware campus in Palo Alto, California, it's theCUBE! Covering women transforming technology. >> Hi, welcome to theCube. Lisa Martin on the ground at the 3rd Annual Women Transforming Technology event at VMware in Palo Alto, and I'm joined by an author and a senior VMware engineer, Pratima Rao Gluckman. Welcome to the Cube, Pratima. >> Thank you, Lisa. It's great to be here >> It's great to have you here. So you have been an engineer here for about ten years. You knew from when you were a kid, love this, engineer, you knew you wanted to be that. You fell in love with your first programming class. It was like a Jerry McGuire, you complete me kind of moment I'm imagining. Tell me a little bit about your career in engineering and specifically as a female. >> Okay, so I was raised, born and raised, in India, and I grew up in an environment where I was gender blind. You know, my oldest sister played cricket for the country. >> Lisa: Wow! >> And it was a man's game! You know and a lot of people kind of talked about that, but it wasn't like she couldn't do it, right? So, I always grew up with this notion that I could do anything, and I could be whoever I wanted to be. And then I came to the United States, and that whole narrative stayed with me, the meritocracy narrative. Like you work hard, you know, society, the world will take care of you, and good things will happen, but it wasn't until 2016 was when I had this aha moment, and that's when I suddenly felt, suddenly I was aware of my gender, and I was like, okay I'm a female in tech, and there's lots of challenges for women in tech. And I didn't quite realize that. It was just that aha moment, and VMware has been a great company. I've been with VMware for nine years, I started as an engineer, and I moved into engineering management. We had Diane Greene who founded the company, the culture was always meritocratic, but I think something in 2016 kind of made me just thinking about my career and thinking about the careers of the women around me, I felt like we were stuck. But at the same time be focused on the women that were successful, for instance Yanbing Li, who's our senior VP and general manager of our storage business. And we were talking about her, and I said, this is what I said, I said, "There are some women who are successful despite everything "that we're dealing with, and I just want "to know their stories, and I'm going to write this book." The moment I said that it just felt right. I felt like this was something I wanted to do, and the stories in this book are inspiring stories of these women, just listening to Laila Ali this morning, her inspirational story, and this book has around 19 stories of these executive women, and they're just not role models, I mean every story offers strategies of how to thrive in the tech world. >> So interesting that first of all I love the title, Pratima, of this book, "Nevertheless She Persisted." So simple, so articulate, and so inspiring. So interesting, though, that you were working as an engineer for quite a few years before you realized, kind of looked around, like, whoa, this is a challenge that I'm actually living in. Yanbing is a CUBE alumni, I love her Twitter handle. So you said all right, I want to talk to some women who have been persistent and successful in their tech careers, as kind of the genesis of the book. Talk to us about, maybe, of those 19 interviews that range from, what, c-levels to VPs to directors. What are some of the stories that you found, what kind of blew your mind of, wow, I didn't know that you came from that kind of background? >> So when I started off I was very ambitious. I said I'd go interview CEO women, and I did a lot of research, and I found some very disturbing facts. You know, Fortune Magazine lists Fortune 500 companies, and they rank them based on their prior year's fiscal revenues, and from that data there were 24 women CEOs in 2014. That number dropped to 21 in 2015, and it dropped again in 2016, but it went up slightly in 2017 to 32 women, which is promising, but back in 2018 we're down to 24. So we have very very few women CEOs, and when I started off I said I'll talk to the CEO women, and I couldn't find any CEO women, my network, my friends' network, And so I dropped one level and I said let me go talk to SVPs and when I looked at VMware and VMware's network, Yanbing was one of them, so she's in the book, and then I reached out to contacts outside of my network. So I have some women from LinkedIn, I have Google, I have Facebook, I have some women from startups. So I have around four CEOs in the book, I've got, and what's great about this book is it's got a diverse set of women. Right? They have different titles; I've got directors, senior directors, VPs, Senior VPs, GMs, and CEOs. And some of them have PhDs, some of them have a Master's Degree, and some actually don't have formal training in computer science. I thought this would be interesting because a woman with any background can relate to it. Right? And so that was helpful. And so that's kind of how I went off and I started to write this book. And when I interviewed these women, there was a common theme that just kept emerging, and that was persistence. And they persisted against gender bias, stereotype threat, just the negative messages from media and society. I mean like Laila Ali was talking about just even the messages she got from her dad. >> Right. >> Right? Someone who was so close to her who basically said "Women can't box." And that didn't stop her; I mean she persisted. When I was listening to her, she didn't use the word, but, you know, she said she was believing in herself and all that, but she persisted through all those negative messages, right? And she said no one can tell her what to do. (laughs) >> Yeah her confidence is very loud and clear, and I think that you do find women, and I imagine some of them are some of the interviewees in your book, who have that natural confidence, and as you were saying when Muhammad Ali was trying to talk her out of it, and trying to, as she said, "He tried to get me think it was my idea," but she just knew, well no, this is what I want to do. And she had that confidence. Did you find that a lot of the women leaders in this book had that natural confidence? Like you grew up in an environment where you just believed "I can do this, my sister's playing cricket." Did you find that was a common thread, or did you find some great examples of women who wanted to do something, but just thought "Can I do this?" And "How do I do that?" What was the kind of confidence level that you saw? >> I was surprised because I had a question on imposter syndrome, and I asked these women, Telle Whiteney, who's the CEO, she was the CEO, ex-CEO >> Lisa: Grace Hopper >> Yes. The founder of Grace Hopper. I asked her about imposter syndrome and this is what she told me, she said "I feel like I'm not good enough" and that actually gave me goosebumps. I remember I was sitting in front of greatness and this is what she was telling me. And then I asked her "How do you overcome it?" and she said "I just show up the next day." And that actually helped me with this book because I am not an author. >> That's persistence. >> I mean I am an author now but 2 years ago when I started to write this, writing is not my forte. I'm a technologist, I build teams, I manage teams, I ship products, I ship technical products, but everyday I woke up and I said, "I'm feeling like an imposter." It was just her voice right? Yanbing also feels the same way, I mean she does feel times where she feels like, "I'm lacking confidence here." Majority of the people actually, pretty much all the women, this one woman, Patty Hatter, didn't feel like she had imposter syndrome but the rest of them face it everyday. Talia Malachi who's a principal engineer at VMWare, it's very hard to be a PE, she said that she fights it every day, and that was surprising to me, right? Because I was sitting in front of all these women, they were confident, they've achieved so much, but they struggle with that every day. But all they do is they persist, they show up the next day. They take those little steps and they have these goals and they're very intentional and purposeful, I mean just like what Layla said, right? She said, "Everything that I've done in the last 20 years "has been intentional and purposeful." And that's what these women did. And I learned so much from them because 20 years ago I was a drifter (laughs) you know I just kind drifted and I didn't realize that I could set a goal and I could reach it and I could do all these amazing things, and I didn't think any of this was possible for me. But I'm hoping that some girl somewhere can read this book and say "You know what this is possible", right? This is possible and you know role models, I think we need lots of these role models. >> We do I think, you know imposter syndrome I've suffered for it for so long before I even knew what it was and I'll be honest with you even finding out that it was a legitimate issue was (exhales) okay I'm not the only one. So I think it's important that you, that these women and youth are your voice, in your book, identified it. This is something I face everyday even though you may look at me on the outside and think, "She's so successful, she's got everything." And we're human. And Laila Ali talked about of having to revisit that inner lawyer, that sometimes she goes silent, sometimes the pilot light goes out and needs to be reignited or turned back up. I think that is just giving people permission, especially women, and I've felt that in the keynote, giving us permission to go, "Ah, you're not going to feel that everyday, "you're not going to feel it everyday." Get up the next day to your point, keep persisting and pursuing your purpose is in and of itself so incredibly empowering. >> Right but also imposter syndrome is good for you and I talk about that a little bit in the book. And you know why it's good for you? It's you getting out of your comfort zone, you're trying something different, and it's natural to feel that way, but once you get over it, you've mastered that, and Laila talked about it too today she said, "You get uncomfortable to the point "where you get comfortable." >> Lisa: Yes. >> So every time that you find that you have this imposter syndrome, just remember that greatness is right around the corner. >> Yep. I always say "Get uncomfortably uncomfortable". >> Pratima: Yes. >> And I loved how she said that today. So one of the big news of the day is VMWare with Stanford announcing that they are investing $15,000,000 in a new Women's Leadership Innovation Lab at Stanford. Phenomenal. >> Pratima: Yes. >> And they're really going to start studying diversity and there's so many different gaps that we face, wage gap, age gap, gender gap, you know mothers vs motherless gap, and one of the things that was really interesting that, I've heard this before, that the press release actually cited a McKinsey report that says, "Companies with diversity "on their executive staff are 21% more profitable." >> Yes. >> And that just seems like a, no duh, Kind of thing to me for organizations like VMWare and your other partners in this consortium of Wt Squared to get on board to say, "Well of course." Thought diversity is so important and it actually is demonstrated to impact a companies' profitability. >> Right, yeah. And that's true, I just hope that more people listen to it and internalize it, and organizations internalize that, and what VMWare's doing is fantastic. I mean I'm so proud to be part of this company that's doing this. And you Shelly talked about change right? She said, "I think, right now the way I feel "about this whole thing, is we need to stop talking about "diversity and inclusion, we just need to say "enough is enough, this is important, let's just do it." >> Lisa: We should make this a part of our DNA. >> Exactly. Just make it, why do we have to fight for all this, right? It's just pointless and you know, men have wives and daughters and mothers and you know, It impacts societies as a whole and organizations, and we have so much research on this and what I like about what the Stanford Research Lab is doing is, they're actually working with woman all the way from middle-school to high-school to the executive suite, and that's amazing because research has now shown, there was a report in March 2014 by a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress, for Judith Warner, and so she documented, just with the rate of change, like I talked with all the percentages and the number of women CEOs, just with that rate of change, the equality of men and women at the top will not occur until 2085. >> Lisa: Oh my goodness. >> That's 63 years from now. That means all our daughters would be retired by then. My daughters was born on 2013 and so she won't live in a world of female leaders that's representative of the population. And so that realization actually really, really, really broke my heart and that made me want to write this book, to create these role models. And what Stanford is doing, is they're going to work on this and I'm hoping that they can make that transition sooner. Like we don't have to wait 'till 2085. I want this for my daughter. >> It has to be accelerated, yes. >> It has to be accelerated and I think all of us need to do that, our daughters should be in the 20s, 30s when this happens, not when they're in their 70s. >> Lisa: And retired. >> And retired, I mean we don't want that. And we don't know how that number's going to get pushed further, right? Like if we don't do anything now... It. (exhales) >> Lisa: Right. 2085 becomes, what? >> I know! It's insane. >> In the spirit of being persistent, with the theme of this 3rd annual Wt Squared being Inclusion in Action, you're a manager and in a people or hiring role, tell me about the culture on your team and how your awareness and your passion for creating change here, lasting change. How are you actually creating that inclusion through action in your role at VMWare? >> So what I do is when I have to hire engineers on my team, I talk to my recruiter, have a conversation, I'm like, "I need more diversity." It's just not women, I want diversity with the men too. I want different races, different cultures because I believe that if I have a diverse team I'm going to be successful. So it's almost like I'm being selfish but that is very important. So I have that conversation with my recruiters, so I kind have an expectation set. And then we go through their hiring process and I'm very aware of just the hiring panel, like who I put on the panel, I make sure to have at least a women on the panel and have some diversity. My team right now is not really that diverse and I'm working hard to make that because it is hard, you know the pipeline has to get built at a certain point, and then start getting those resumes, but I try to have at least one female on the panel, and during the selection process the first thing I'll tell them is, let's get the elephant out of the room, age, gender, whatever, like let's take that out, let's just talk about skills and how well this person has done in an interview. And that's how I conducted and you know I've had fairly good success of hiring women on the team. But I've also seen that it's hard to retain women because they tend to drop-out faster than the men and so it's constant, it's just constant work to make that happen. >> Yeah. I wish we had more time to talk about retention because it is a huge issue. So the book is Nevertheless, She Persisted. Where can people get a copy of the book? >> So you can get it on Amazon, that's, I think, the best place to get it. You can also get it from my publisher's site which is FriesenPress. >> Excellent well Pratima thank you so much for stopping by. >> Thank you. >> And sharing your passion, how your persisting, and how you're also helping more of us learn how to find that voice and pursue our passions, thank you. >> Thank you. >> We want to thank you for watching. We are TheCUBE on the ground at VMWare for the Third Annual Women Transforming Technology Event. I'm Lisa Martin thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From the VMware campus in Palo Alto, California, it's theCUBE, covering women transforming technology. (electro music) >> Hey, welcome to theCUBE, I'm Lisa Martin on the ground at VMware in Palo Alto at the third annual, Women Transforming Technology event. Really excited to be here. I am joined by Shelley Correll, the director of The Clayman Institute for Gender Research at Stanford. Shelley, exciting day, welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you, good to be here! >> Lisa: Big news. >> Very big news! >> Lisa: So you're also the founding director of The Center for Advancements of Women's Leadership. The Clayman Institute has been around since 1974, but you've been partnering with Vmware for the last five years? >> Shelley: Yes, in a variety of ways, yes. >> So talk to us about the big announcement today with Vmware and The Clayman Institute. >> Well we're very exited, we've been working with VMware for five years, as you said, in a variety of different capacities, And have really been engaged with them over the idea that we could better connect academic research with practice. And so, the news we had to announce today is that they are investing 15 million dollars into our efforts and we're going to be launching a new lab that's going to be focused on advancing women's leadership. >> Lisa: Phenomenal. Talk to us about some of the foci that you're going to be focusing on to accelerate the change we need, not just to bring more eyes and ears in dollars to it but accelerate it. >> I'm glad you used that word, that's exactly what it's about, it's accelerating. We come into this with research that shows very clearly that the progress, in terms of moving women into leadership, has just all but stalled. The progress we're making is very slow, and if we just sit back and wait, we're not going to see, you and I aren't going to see gender equality, in our lives, our daughter's lives. It's not going to happen. And so we're asking ourselves, what can we do to accelerate change? And so, to me, one of the most important things that we need to be doing is bridging the gap between academic scholarship, which tells a lot about the barriers to women's leadership, with the kind of activities that organizations are doing, the diversity initiatives their putting in place. If we can join forces, then I think we can better accelerate change. And so that was kind of the idea behind this lab. We really have three main things that we're hoping to accomplish. One is to diagnose the barriers to women's advancement, across all kinds of diversity that women occupy and own. So understanding those barriers, and then second is piloting solutions, working within companies to develop interventions that we can put in place, so we can learn how to get beyond the barriers. That's the kind of next thing that we're doing. And third, is just to be a hub of information. We're going to take these learnings from our research and translate them into tools that people can use, to be able to put research into action and in their own organizations. So that's the three-prong goal of this new laboratory. >> Lisa: So exciting. And it's something that, you know, as we talk about, it's 2018 and this is still such a massive issue. It's been very widely known for a long time that the numbers of women in technical roles in technology is what, below 25%. But something I found interesting when I was doing some research on you is that there's also this motherhood penalty that I was unaware. Tell us a little bit about what that is and how is that something that maybe this new innovation lab will help to eliminate? >> Right, and I think it's important because when we think about putting solutions into place, we know that they're not going to be, sort of, one-size-fits-all solutions. They're going to differ for different kinds of women. And in my own research on the motherhood penalty, what we found are very clear gaps between women who are childless and women who are mothers. And in fact, the wage penalty that we usually talk about, the gender wage gap, is largely a gap between mothers and childless women. And so, we got to asking ourselves, why? Why would a women who's a mother be so penalized relative to a childless woman? So we've got gender inequality, and now we've got this motherhood penalty on top of that. And so, our research found that if you take a resume for a woman and you just add in subtle information that she's a mother, >> Lisa: Like on the PTA, or something. >> The PTA association, that people are 100% less likely to recommend her for hire. >> 100%? >> 100%, yeah. You know, it's a huge gap there, and so, as we dig deeper, what we see is that people's stereotypes about mothers, are that mothers are so committed to their families that they couldn't possibly be committed to their job. Every one of us who work with mothers in the workplace know that's not the case, right? But yet that's the stereotype that's holding mothers back, in addition to what we find for women in general, if you will. >> So if a man on his resume has that he is a soccer coach or a baseball coach, that is not factored into the decision to not hire him? >> Well it is, but guess what? It advantages him, it doesn't disadvantage him. >> Lisa: Advantages? Yes, so for fathers, we find that people see fathers as more committed to the job than childless men. So, we're seeing how parenthood works differently for men and women in the workplace. So I think one of the barriers we want to get past is the effects of biases on how people are evaluated, and they're not just gender biases. They're biases about gender, but also about parenthood, about race, about ethnicity, about sexuality. I mean, all of those things intersect in complex ways. So, it means that we're going to see different barriers for different types of women, if you will, and that means also that we're probably going to need to have different kinds of solutions as well. >> Absolutely, so something that interests me is, you know, in the last six months, me too movement exploded on the scene, times up, Brotopia, a recent book out by Emily Chang, that is shocking to say the least, very informative, enlightening. When those movements popped up and there was a, sort of, unlikely alliance with Hollywood, I'm curious, we're you like yes, good, we have some momentum here that we need to be able to leverage to making the gaps, as you said, there's so many that women face, more sensible intact, was that kind of a let's get on the same bandwagon? Yes, you have to ride these waves when they happen. The problems that me too is identifying are certainly not new problems, and this has been going on as long as women have been in the work place, but the attention to it is what's new, and so, as a scholar when there's attention to important social problem that you research, you ride that wave. We've got the world's attention now. Let's use that attention to take the messages about what we know from research and the strategies we have and get them out to people that need them, so it is an opening that allows us to take the me too, kind of, moment that we're in and really turn it into a movement that produces sustainable change. >> We need to get our own hashtag. (laughter) What are some of the things that say in this next, what are we almost and half way through 2018, which is kind of scary. What are some of the, maybe, the small ones or the quick ones that you think with this new VMware partnership that you're going to be able to identify and uncover in 2018? >> We've been working a lot on ways to reduce unconscious biases in the workplace. I think some of the projects that we're launching are really about going into organizations and diagnosing where a bias might be affecting how they're evaluating women at the points of hire, at promotion, as we're thinking about who to put all the stretch assignments. So identifying the way those biases are occurring in workplaces and then working with managers in those organizations to design tools to help get beyond those biases. This is some work that we have stared initially that we're now expanding to more research sites and so I think that's one of the first things to do is to really go in and try to remove these biases that don't, they're not good for women, but they're not good for the organization either. If you're biased against women, what that means is you're not valuing women's talent and any organization wants to accurately assessing the talent of people in their workplace. >> I think I read in a press release this morning that a McKinsey report that said that organization, if I can, yes. According to McKinsey, companies with diversity on their executive teams are 21% more profitable than those who lack diversity. Profits. >> I know, it's profit. We see it with innovation, too. It makes sense if you think about it, right. If our biases we causing us to see women as less talented than they are and maybe men as more talented then they are, what that means is we're not hiring on average the most productive, talented people. I think all organizations want to source and hire the best people they can, and so we're moving these biases as one way of doing that. And, when we remove those biases, I think improvements or diversity will follow. >> When you look at a company that's been around for a long time and you think wow, culture is very slow to change. >> Shelley: Right. >> How do you advise organizations that have been around for decades that are predominantly male led, especially at the executive level, to just be more aware and open to changing the culture to, you know, maybe it's hey, you could be 21% more profitable. >> Shelley: Exactly. >> Who doesn't want that? >> Shelley: Who doesn't want that, yeah. >> How do you have the conversation with an accumbent about cultural change? >> Right, and I think sometimes people think culture is just sort of what it is and cannot be changed, but we can make small wins, small improvements in that culture, and so one of the things that has been most effective in our research is to go in and work with managers on trying to improve how they're hiring people, how they're promoting people, and so the conversation isn't really about culture. It is at a deep level, but it doesn't seem like that at the surface level. It's really about how can you more accurately asses talent, and when you start asking that question, what you start seeing is the ways that you were assessing talent before were flawed in some ways and they were flawed in a way that was limiting your ability to see women's abilities and their talents. The conversation really is just about doing what I think we all want to do, which is truly evaluating people based on their merits, and I think if that's the message, a lot more people are on board with that. The other thing I'll say is when we had, we were working with a company who was telling us that one of the ways they assessed people for promotion was they wanted their leaders to be very responsive to people in the organization, and that's a great value to have, right, to be responsive. When we probe them about how do you know when someone's responsive, they didn't really. First they couldn't articulate how they were evaluating that. What it became clear is without clear criteria for assessing responsiveness, they're implicit measures were like how quickly does this person respond to email. They realized that women weren't being as quick responding to email, especially during the dinner hours. I think you and I can know exactly why that is. >> Right. >> They they got to starting thing, well that isn't maybe the very, that's not a very good measure of leader responsiveness, and they went back to look at their responses from women and they were more elaborate, they were more detailed, they were more helpful, and so the measure they were using was sort of, it was biased against women, but it was also not productive for what they were trying to do. These are the kind of small wins that open people eyes to the fact that they could do things differently that would be good for diversity and inclusion and would be good for what they're trying to do as an organization, the bottom line as well. >> Wow, what are the other things. We talked about, you know, the numbers of women in technical roles is very small, under 25%. Another big challenge that we have in technology is attrition, and the fact that more women leave tech for other industries than women leave other industries. >> Shelley: Exactly. >> What are some of the things that your research has shown that companies can do to also, not just focus on bringing in young talent or working with universities on STEM programs, but for women that are maybe in the middle of their, whether they're thinking about the leaving the to have a family or simply this is not the right environment for me. That retention from middle career. What are some of the things that you found there? >> Yeah, and I'll say too about, I think one of the sort of narratives that people tell themselves in companies is that women are leaving tech to have children, but women don't leave tech to have children at any higher rate, and actually a lower rate than other professions, so it's not, that's not the reason they're tech at a higher rate than some other places. There's something else going on there. I think working on improving the inclusion and the environment is really important for retaining women. Surveys that sort of show why people left their jobs find that in tech, a big reason women leave tech compared to other places is they don't feel like they're supported in the workplace, more so than in other places, even including other STEM fields, like science and things like that. Higher exit rate because they don't feel included in the workplace, so the question is, what's the barrier there? What are we doing in our workplaces that women in tech don't feel included and what can we do to change that. I think, again, removing some of these biases, if you're in a workplace where you constantly feel like your talent is not being appreciated, that's one way you quickly don't feel included as a technical worker. I think this sort of cultural change that we're talking about is probably even more important for retention than it is for hiring. >> Do you think that younger companies maybe start us maybe, you know three to four years old or less than 10 year's, we'll say, have a better chance at being able to morph quickly and pivot than a larger company that's been around for decades? >> Yeah, I mean, it's much easier to get things right to begin with, you know, so people sometimes ask you know when they're founding a company how soon, you know, do we need to have a woman on board, and my answer is always as quickly as possible, and I you get to 10 employees with no women, you're already behind the curve. Really, kind of starting off with the idea that we want to get the culture right to begin with so that we don't end up having to scramble the eggs later down the road, and that's one of the things we've learned from working with VMware, is early on in the founding of this company, there was an attempt to create the kind of culture that I think more companies are wanting to emulate today. >> We've got Betsy Sutter coming on a little bit later and I'm really curious to talk to her about coming on years ago, when VMware was a start up 100 people. >> Shelley: Exactly. >> And now being in this chief people officer role of an organization of 20,000 and here we are at VMware today walking into a room of females who are here to really kind of embody what the charter of this consortium of WT Squared is, is connecting and inspiring, but supporting women and tech of all levels, right, not just here in Silicon Valley, but beyond as well and having the powers coming together from industry, from acidemia, from non-profits is, it's a very, the vibe when we were in the key note just an hour ago was so palpable that there's certainly that we will create change. >> Betsy's so inspirational to me in this regard, is that she has been here since 2001 and was sort of critical to getting the culture in place at that point in time and, you know, it's not that VMware doesn't have challenges with hiring and retaining a tech. All companies do, but they've created a culture from the beginning that I think is kind of a model for what companies are wanting to do today. >> Last thing before we wrap, here, is we had the opportunity to listen to Laila Ali and so cool. >> Shelley: So cool. >> I mean, just to hear a confident women, who was probably born with a natural confidence, that women have and some women don't, but to hear her talk about hey, sometimes this interwar, the flame is out or it's low and I, too, have to say this is my purpose. This is my passion. I don't want to have to look around and constantly think I'm in a man's sport. I know, this is my sport. I thought just that having that world kind of talk to us, women intact to say hey, it's going to take reminding yourself often what your purpose is, what you're passion is, but she challenged us to do that and I just thought it was a really encouraging, inspiring message for everyone to hear so early on a Tuesday morning. >> We run sort of a leadership program for high school girls and this whole issue of purpose is something that we really stress as well is when you're trying to lead and people aren't following, stop and ask yourself what was the purpose in doing what you're doing and articulate that purpose to others and that's the way you can kind of bring people along. I just loved her example today about when you're not feeling confident, go back and ask yourself why, the question of why. It's too easy to go through life just doing things and losing our sense of purpose and that really is a good source of confidence because you're doing something for a reason that really matters to you. That will help recharge you. >> Absolutely. Shelly, thanks so much for stopping by. >> I enjoyed it, I enjoyed it. >> TheCUBE this morning and sharing your purpose and the exciting news of what VMware and the Clayman Institute are going to do. We look forward to hearing some of the great stuff that comes out in the next few years. >> That sounds great. Thank you, nice to talk to you. >> And we want to thank you. You're watching theCUBE. We are on the ground at VMware at the 3rd Annual Women Transforming Technology event. I'm Lisa Martin. Thanks for watching. (funky music)