>> From the Amazon Meeting Center in downtown Seattle, it's theCUBE! Covering IMAGINE: A Better World, a global education conference sponsored by Amazon Web Services. >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in Seattle, Washington at the AWS IMAGINE education event. First time ever as part of the public sector series. Theresa Carlson kicked it off earlier today. 900 registered people watched this thing grow, like every other Amazon event that we've ever covered. And really, this is all about education. We're excited to be here. Our next guest has been working on this for awhile, He's Lou Pugliese, he's the Senior Innovation Fellow and Managing Director of Technology Innovation at Action Lab, Arizona State. Welcome. >> Thanks for letting me interview here. >> Absolutely. So just before we get started, kind of general impressions of this event? >> You know, it's amazing. I was just saying just a few minutes ago that you go to a lot of conferences, and you know, you go to so many conferences that the goal is to sort of try to meet 80% of the time new people. And you don't ever do that. Here you do, you know. And so there's a lot of people here that I've known for years, that I haven't seen. And there are a lot of new faces here too, so it's great. >> Right. It's really interesting, we cover a lot of conferences and kind of the lifecycle as they grow. But when they're small like this and just getting started you know, it's so intimate. There's so much hall conversations going on, there's so much just genuine sharing of best practices 'cause everybody's still trying to figure it out. >> Exactly, exactly. That's what you're doing here now. >> Absolutely. So, one of the things you're involved in, that caught my eye doing the research for this, is working on research based approach to really understand what works for the student learning experience. So there's all kinds of conversations we can have about higher education. Does it work, does it not work, is it broken? There's a lot of interesting things. Here, you know, it's been really interesting to focus on community colleges specifically and this kind of direct path between skills and getting a job. And it almost feels like the old apprenticeship model, kind of back in the day. You're at a big four year institution and really exploring. What is changing in the education interaction between kids and teachers, kids and curriculum, and how that stuff gets communicated and what's effective? 'Cause it's a new world, it's not the old world. >> No, it is. And you know, at ASU, what's interesting is is that there's a significant digital presence. You know, 35 thousand students very historically, back to 2009. So with that comes a significant amount of footsteps, digital footsteps, that students have taken. And so now you have the ability to be able to analyze that at a much higher level. And so now what we can do, and the part of what we're doing at the Action Lab is: looking specifically at the efficacy of these digital programs, finding out what course design elements do work, and what needs to be changed. And that gives us the ability to sort of feed that information back into the instructional design process, and continue to iterate on that improvement. The unique thing about the lab is that, it's a persistent lab. Most universities are sort of stop and start research initiatives, and they learn a lot and they publish a lot of papers. We've been around for three years, and we'll be around for 10 more, and it's a persistent examination of what we're doing at a digital environment, and we're taking it one step further, we're trying to understand how students behave in a digital environment. We know a lot about how students behave in a classroom or traditional learning setting, but we don't know how they how they learn in a digital environment. >> Right. I love, you said digital footprints, not digital exhaust, (both laugh) and it kind of reminds me of kind of these older you know, long term longitudinal studies, because it's still pretty early days in trying to figure out how these educational tools and mobile and stuff are impacting the way these kids learn. But we know they spend so much time on them, that is their interface to the world. It's almost like your remote control to life is actually this little thing that you carry around in your hand. So I'm curious, what are some of the things you've discovered that are working? What are some of the things that maybe that were kind of surprising that didn't work? What's some of the early findings that's coming out of that research? >> Sure, so in the early studies, we looked specifically at how demographic populations succeed or don't succeed in an environment. And what we found out is: there are certain demographics of students that flourish in an online environment, and consistently perform well. There are some that don't. The second thing we learned specifically is: what types of design features within a course, like the interaction within students, or exposing learning objectives, or getting students to really understand what rubrics of measurement, how content is being used and paced throughout our curriculum. A lot of really detailed information that faculty need to reorient and redesign their instruction, and so we can see a direct predictive value of improvement based on those changes. >> Right. So are you getting stuff out now that's impacting curriculum development? Or are you still kind of pulling the data together and there has not been enough time to really implement it? >> We are doing that, absolutely. One of the elements that we're introducing into the research now is: this notion of, it sounds like a fancy term, non cognitive or social and emotional learning; things that are a predispositions of learning about a student in their, you know, sort of soft skills world. Grit, determination, goal orientation, a variety of different soft skills, and their disposition, and how that impacts how they learn, and how they succeed in a classroom. >> And how important is that? I would imagine it's got to be super important. >> It's a field that is just still early in its science, but we're learning a lot. Not necessarily just about how students will succeed in a course environment, but those types of social/emotional learning skills that are required for them to be successful in a workplace environment. >> Right, right. And then the other factors that were discussed earlier in the key note are some of the, you know, what's happening at home? You know, there's all these other factors that are in a student's life that aren't directly tied to their education, but it can have a significant impact on their ability to learn, either temporarily, or-- >> They're all predispositions, yeah absolutely, yeah. >> Yeah, or full time. That's great. So, as you look forward now, and I think it came up too in the keynote, there's no shortage of data (chuckles) in this education environment. It's really been the time to grab it, analyze it, and put it to work. So, how are, you know, your engagement with Amazon kind of helping you to move your objectives forward? >> Well the Amazon engagement allows us to sort of off load all of the technological constraints, and gives us ultimate possibilities of not necessarily focusing on the tough stuff; the hardware, the integration, the specific tool sets that are required to extract data and analyze data, and focusing specifically on the research. So ultimately, it allows us to redirect our focus in what's really important in our world, because it's not necessarily about the technology, it's how the technology can point and draw a direct line between what the data says and how we create an intervention with students. >> Right. So I'm just curious to get your perspective. You said before we turned on the cameras, you've been involved in this field for a long time, trying to figure out how people can learn, how they can learn better, more effectively. Are there some big, kind of macro themes, that maybe people don't think about enough, that you've seen repeated time and time again, that people should be thinking about when they think about effective education and how to get kids to actually learn what we're trying to teach them? >> Sure, so a couple things. I mean, what we're focused on is not necessarily what we call big data, what we typically know big data as, it's really more about small data, which shows us causality. So for instance, one of the things that we are learning is that peer-to-peer engagement is really, really important in many courses in engaging in asynchronous and synchronous organizations within the course to learn from peers. Also avenues specifically to faculty, so faculty can actually look at the map of the entire classroom and understand who's achieving and focus just only on those people. >> Interesting. Well, good stuff, and, I'm sure, as you get more and more of the digital footprints, the insights will only increase by leaps and bounds. >> Absolutely. >> Alright, Lou, well thanks for taking a few minutes of your time >> Thank you. and we'll look forward to catching up next year and getting some new information. >> Thanks. >> He's Lou, I'm Jeff, thanks for watchin', we're in Seattle, signing off from AWS IMAGINE educate, See ya next time. (upbeat techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Washington D.C., it's the Cube. Covering .conf2017. Brought to you by Splunk. >> Welcome back, here on the Cube along with Dave Vellante, I am John Walls. We're live at .conf2017, as Splunk continues with day two of its get together here the nation's capital, Washington D.C. Home game for me, I love it. Dave's up the road in Boston, so, hey, you had to hit the road a little bit, but not as bad as it can be sometimes for you. >> No, I'll take D.C. over Vegas. Sorry, Vegas. >> Yeah, but you travel a lot, man, you do, you're on the road. Chris Kurtz travels a lot, too. He's come with us from Arizona State University, he's a systems architect out there. Chris, always good to see you, we had a chance to visit last year for the first time. >> Yep. >> A member of the Splunk trust. And a gentleman with quite a diverse background, I mean. You supported Mars missions. As far as the... >> The Spirit and Opportunity. >> Facilitated out in Phoenix. Working now, as you said, at Arizona State, but also the Trust. Let's talk about that a little bit, because there was some conversation yesterday from the keynote stage about expanding that group? >> Absolutely. >> Adding 14 new members. And for a lot of people at home, who might not be familiar with the Splunk trust, talk about the concept and how you put it into practice. >> Absolutely, so, the Splunk trust is the organization that Splunk set up as a community leader, as a community activist. Our, kind of, watch word is, is that, "We're not the smartest people in the room, "but we'll be the most helpful." and, so, our purpose is... >> John: I'm not sure about that first part, too, by the way. >> Thank you, very much. >> John: I think you're short-changing yourself. >> So, our organization preface is we act as members of the community to help direct community people who have issues and help them externally, but also, to help Splunk and what direction they should go. "Hey, we see this pain point from a lot of the customers, "this is something that maybe Splunk should concentrate on." We're often given access to betas or even earlier, or, you know, even potential products. It's, "How should we build this, is this something that "you would use? "Is this something that you would like?" Table data sets was a feature that I worked on for a year, that was released last year. You know, "Is this something that you would use, "is this something that you would want?" and, sometimes, you know, users fall through the cracks in the support system and they don't know how to get support help, or they don't know where to get directed, and we can volunteer and say, you know, "Show them where the Splunk answers group is very powerful." There's an app for that, we can show them Splunkbase and help them when those things fall through the cracks. So, we provide community enrichment and support, but we're not an official representative of Splunk, even though we're appointed by Splunk on a year-to-year basis. >> John: There aren't that many of ya, right? >> Well, there's a couple, 42 this time. And, you serve for a year and it can be renewed each year, you reapply. Or you can be volunteered, you know, somebody else can... >> Nominate you. >> Can nominate for us. And there's no guarantee. We, the members of the trust vote and then that goes to Splunk and Splunk makes the final decision. Some companies allow that, some don't, it depends. ASU is very generous and let's me participate and give them my time to the organization. >> And I said ASU, Arizona State University. >> That's what I was thinking. >> I never fully introduced that, I'm sorry. >> What do you have to do to qualify and what's the hurdle? >> So, be the most helpful person in the room, that's what you need to do to qualify. So you need to be a part... You can't work for Splunk, you have to be a partner or a customer, and you need to give to the community in some way. So, you need to give back to the community. You participate on Answers, which is the online, kind of, self-support forum. You need to speak in the community, maybe run a user group, a lot of us do run the user groups. I run the user group in Arizona. And, you need to be respected amongst the community and, people go, you know, "I want to go to them, "they'll help me or at least get me to the right person." >> Is it predominantly or exclusively technical practitioners, or not necessarily? >> This year, they divided us in to, kind of, organizational units, so there's architects, and practitioner, and developer. So, we're all technical, but, this year we're going to have the ability to focus a little more on a specific area. You know, "What do you do for a living, "what do you do with Splunk? "Do you architect with Splunk internally, "do you just provide Splunk practice? "Are you a Splunk developer that makes apps? "How do you use Splunk on a daily basis?" And, again, there are partners as well. So, Aplura and Defense Point, I think, are both tied with four members a piece. So that's one of those things that, you know, they're going out to individual customers and helping them everyday. >> So, it's really taking this notion of a customer advisory board to a whole another level. I mean, it's not a passive, you know, group of people that, maybe, meets once a year. >> Right. >> It's an ongoing, active, organic institution essentially. >> Absolutely, we have quarterly meetings online and at those meetings a different Splunk, sometimes executives, sometimes product managers or engineering managers, you know, come and speak to us. And it can be anything from, "Hey, we're developing this "internal product and are we interested, you know, "is that useful to you?" Or, "What enhancements do you feel the product need?" Or, you know, "This is a new feature we're working on "to look and feel." I was consulted about the conf logo. "Hey, Chris, you're an average customer, "which of these four logos do you think really, you know, "kind of helps set the mood?" And, you know, did they take my advice? Does it really matter, no, but they were willing to just... I'm not associated, I'm not in the bowels of the company. >> So this isn't your logo over here? >> That is actually the one that I chose. >> Oh, excellent, I would assume so, right. >> Who organizes the quarterly meetings? >> So, the quarterly meetings are organized by Splunk in the community. There's a community group that's underneath Brian Goldfarb, who's the Chief Marketing Officer. So, he organizes the quarterly meetings. He gets to herd all the cats, because we're all across the world. You know, you have to figure out a time zone, you have to figure out where, you have to figure out when. But, most of the time, there's some suggestions. "Hey, you know, the engineering manager "for section x would like to speak." But, sometimes it's like, "Yeah, we would like to talk "to the person in charge of Search Head Clustering," for example. "We see some pain points in the community," or something like that, so, it's wide-ranging. But, you know, we're not just a group to rubber stamp anything that Splunk does, but we're also not a group to just sit there and complain about things we don't like. It's really very much a give and take. Splunk is generous and open enough to give us that access, and we take that very seriously. To be able to help guide Splunk in making their product the best it can be. It's an amazing product, I'm an evangelist, have been since I started using it. But, also, to help the customers. If the customers are having a pain point, we're probably going to hear about that first. >> Dave: When did you start using? >> I've been using Splunk for about five years. And when I started using Splunk at ASU, it had been a 50GB license and they'd just bought another 100GB, and it needed re-working, it needed architecting. So, when I came in, our chief information security officer and our VP for operations are the ones who directed me. And I said, "What do you want to grow for?" And they said, "Architect it for a terabyte, "assume it's going to take us several years to get there." So, I rebuilt the current environment and we architected it for a terabyte and here we are, four-and-a-half, five years later, we're at a terabyte. And, we're still growing and we're looking at Cloud, you know, we're looking at other use-cases. I think the biggest ship for us is that, we talked about this briefly last year, is that I work for John Rome, who's the Deputy CIO for Arizona State, and he's in charge of business intelligence and analytics. So, it is an enterprise application for data at ASU. It is not part of the security office, it's not part of operations, it's not part of depth. Those are all customers. And, so, internally those are customers and I think that's an amazing opportunity to say that, "Those are customers of mine." So, I'm not beholden to, you know, building the system so it's only useful for security, or building it so it's only useful for operations. They're my customers, and we avoid any appearance of, "Oh, I don't want to put my data in a security product. "I don't want to put my data in an operations product." Nobody questions putting their data in the data warehouse, that's the appropriate place for the data to go. So, that's the beauty of the system that we've developed, is they're both customers of mine. >> All right, so let's talk about your work at Arizona State, little bit. I don't know the size now, I'm trying to think of it, a huge... >> Chris: We're the largest single university in the United States. >> Probably what, 60,000-70,000? >> Total enrollment 104-110,000. A lot of that's online, I think we have about 78,000 or more at the main campus. But, we're the single largest university in the U.S. There are groups like the University of California that's larger overall, but not single institution. >> So, you know... >> Massive. >> Big project, yeah. Where are you now, then? What have you been using Splunk for that maybe you weren't last year when you and I had a chance to visit? >> Yeah, so, we started using it as a security product. It was brought in to make security more agile in getting that information from the operations and the networking groups, firewalls was the first thing we were brought in for. Now, we're starting to look at other use-cases, we're starting to look at edge cases. "Are we using it for academic integrity?" So, the very beginning so that we're looking at, "If a student is taking a test, are they the person "taking the test?" We're looking at it to make sure the students' accounts are safe and not compromised. We're looking at rolling out multi-factor to the university and being able to protect that. And, we're taking a lot of those functions and pushing them down to our help desk, so the help desk has all of the tools they need to be able to support the student and take care of their issue on the first call. That's really important, we have an amazing help desk organization, amazing care organization. And that's the goal is, it doesn't matter how long the call takes, you do that on the first call. And Splunk is a key portion of that to be able to provide them with the right information. And they don't have to go and try to get somebody from network engineering just to solve the student problem, they can see what the problem is from the beginning. >> Academic integrity, explain that. >> Yeah, so, you know, I don't think that there's any student who doesn't want to do their own work and do the best possible thing they can. But, sometimes, students get in a position where they need some help and, maybe, that isn't always exactly what they should do. So, you need to make sure that the student is taking the test that they're signed up for, that they didn't have any assistance, especially in online classes. We need to keep our degree important and valid, and, obviously, none of our students want to, but occasionally you find somebody who hasn't done exactly what they're supposed to. And we need to be able to validate that. So, we need to be able to validate that someone did what they said they did or did the work that they said they did. It's just like, nobody wants to plagiarize, but, occasionally it does happen and we need to protect ourselves and protect the students. >> And you can do that with data? >> We can absolutely do. >> You can ensure that integrity, how? Explain that a little bit. >> A little bit, yeah. So, we look at where the student logs in from. If the login routinely from Tempe, Arizona and then, suddenly there's a login from someplace else. Oftentimes, that has nothing to do with academic integrity, that has to do with there is an account compromise. We need to protect the students' personal information, both HIPAA and FIRPA. We need to protect their privacy information, just generally available PII. So we look at when they logged in, where they logged in, how they logged in. Did the how-to factor worked? I think academic integrity is really a much smaller portion of that, I think the more thing is we need to protect those students. So, we look at how they logged in, when they logged in, what type of machine they logged in from. I mean, if you're using a Surface and you've been using a Surface to login for months and then, all of a sudden, you login from an iPhone, you might have gotten a new iPhone, but, you know, you might not have. So, we put all those pieces of information, all those launch together to build a case that, "Do we need to reset this user's password for safety?" >> But I think academic integrity's important from the brand as well, because the consumers of your students, the employers out there, they may be leery of online courses. So, to the extent that you can say, "Hey, we've got this covered, we actually can ensure "that academic integrity through data." That enhances the value of the degree and the ASU brand, right? >> Absolutely, we don't think that any student wants to do anything that they're not supposed to. It does happen, you know. >> But even if it's one, right, or even if it's the perception of the employer that it can happen? >> John: The possibility. >> Yeah, and I think that's a really good point, is that we need to protect that brand and we need to protect the students. I think protecting students is the number one thing, protecting employees is the number one thing. Everything else falls from that. >> Okay, what about other student behaviors? I mean, you're sort of trafficking around campus, maybe, food consumption, dorm living, I mean, all these kinds of things that with sensors or, what have you, you could extract reams of data? >> We're doing a lot of that. We're partnering with Amazon to look at the Amazon Echo and using them in dorms to provide them voice interface. "Echo, where is my next class?" Or, "What time does the Memorial Union open?" Or, "How late can I get a pizza," and that type of thing. We want to build an environment that's not only fun for the students, but very powerful, and uses the latest technology. >> Pricing, I want to talk pricing, all right? I dig for the one little wart in Splunk and it's hard to find. But, I've heard some chirping about pricing because pricing is a function of the volume of data. The data curve is growing, it's reshaping. What are your thoughts? What do you tell Splunk about pricing? >> So, a lot of people say, "Man, Splunk is expensive." And, I don't think Splunk is expensive. Once you've achieved a volume, it's got a good pricing structure. I think that anything that Splunk tries to do to change the pricing model is a bad direction. >> Dave: So you like it the way it is? >> I like it the way it is. I believe that we've made an investment in a perpetual-licensed product and I certainly don't think that what we're spending on it, for a maintenance year is a bad thing. And i think that we get a good value for the product. And we're going to continue to use it for years to come. >> I've always felt, like, "Your price is too high," has never been a deal-breaker for software companies. They've generally navigated through that criticism. And it's been, you know, ultimately an indicator of success more than anything else. But, your point is if the values there, you pay for it. Are you able to find ways to save money using Splunk that essentially pay for that premium? >> Absolutely, so one of the very first things we did with Splunk, is we looked at our employee direct deposit, we talked about this briefly last year. We looked at employee direct deposit and we were being targeted by a Malaysian hacking group who was using phishing emails to phish credentials from us. You know, you send an email that looks very much like a university login and says, "You need to login "and change your password or you're not going to be able "to work in an hour." A lot of employees, especially employees in areas that aren't high tech, you know, in the psychology department, they may fill-in that information and then the hackers login and change their direct deposit. And then the university ends up paying the employee again and eating those costs. Our original use-case was on-the-fly, we saved $30,000 in a single payroll run. Pretty easy to pay for Splunk when you do that. And so, that was our very original use-case. And that came from just looking at the data. "Is this useful, where are these people logging in from?" There's a change, you know, and I think that that's very important. The thing I love about Splunk is, because it's schema on demand, because there's no hard schema, and that it's use-case on demand. Is that, every single good use-case in the very beginning was standing around the water cooler, having a drink and saying, "I wonder if combine data set A, "we combine data set B, we come up with something that "nobody was asking about." And now when we something that we can help fix, we can help grow, we can make more efficient. To the question of how you deal with all that data is, you tune, you decide what data is important, you decide what data is unimportant, you clean up the logs that you don't care about. And we spent a year, we didn't buy Splunk for one year, we didn't buy a new license, or didn't buy an expansion license, because we took a year to compact and say, "Okay, all the data we're getting "from this firewall, is that all necessary, "is there anything redundant?" "Does it have redundant dates, does it have redundant "time stamps, et cetera." >> Right. >> And I pulled that information out and that just gave us a little bit of breathing room, and then we're going to turn around and take another chunk. >> Help. >> No schema on right sounds icky but it's profound. >> You mentioned the word, help, again, big word, key word. Chris Kurtz, one of the most helpful guys in the community of the Splunk. >> Thank you very much. >> Thanks for being with us, Chris Kurtz. Back with more, Dave and I are going to take a short break, about a half-hour, we'll continue our coverage here live at .conf2017. (upbeat music)

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation as we've been reporting the Koba 19 pandemic has created a bifurcated IT spending picture and over the last several weeks we've reported both on the macro and even some come at it from from a vendor and a sector view I mean for example we've reported on some of the companies that have really continued to thrive we look at the NASDAQ and its you know near at all-time highs companies like oh and in CrowdStrike we've reported on snowflake uipath the sectors are PA some of the analytic databases around AI maybe even to a lesser extent cloud but still has a lot of tailwind relative to some of those on-prem infrastructure plays even companies like Cisco bifurcated in and of themselves where you see this Meraki side of the house you know doing quite well the work from home stuff but maybe some of the traditional networking not as much well now what if you flip that to really try to understand what's going on with the shape of the recovery which is the main narrative right now is it a v-shape does it a u-shape what is what's that what do people expect and now you understand that you really have to look at different industries because different industries are going to come back at a different pace with me again is Sagar khadiyah who's the director of research at EGR Sagar you guys are all over this as usual timely information it's great to see you again hope all is well in New York City thanks so much David it's a pleasure to be back on again yeah so where are we in the cycle we give dividend a great job and very timely ETR was the first to really put out data on the koban impact with the survey that ran from mid-march to to mid-april and now everybody's attention sagar is focused on okay we're starting to come back stores are starting to open people are beginning to to go out again and everybody wants to know what the shape of the recovery looks like so where are we actually in that research cycle for you guys yeah no problem so like you said you know in that kind of march/april timeframe we really want to go out there and get an idea of what we're doing the budget impacts you know as it relates to IT because of kovat 19 right so we kind of ended off there around a decline of 5% and coming into the year the consensus was of growth of 4 or 5% right so we saw about a 900,000 basis points wing you know to the negative side and the public covered in March and April were you know which sectors and vendors were going to benefit as a result of work from home and so now as we kind of fast forward to the research cycle as we kind of go more into May and into the summer rather than asking those exact same question to get again because it's just been you know maybe 40 or 50 days we really want Singh on the recovery type as well as kind of more emerging private vendors right we want to understand what's gonna be the impact on on these vendors that typically rely on you know larger conferences more in-person meetings because these are younger technologies there's not a lot of information about them and so last Thursday we launched our biannual emerging technology study it covers roughly 300 private emerging technologies across maybe 60 sectors of technology and in tandem we've launched a co-ed flash poll right what we wanted to do was kind of twofold one really understand from CIOs the recovery type they had in mind as well as if they were seeing any any kind of permanent changes in their IT stacks IT spend because of koban 19 and so if we kind of look at the first chart here and kind of get more into that first question around recovery type what we asked CIOs and this kind of COBIT flash poll again we did it last Thursday was what type of recovery are you expecting is it v-shaped so kind of a brief decline you know maybe one quarter and then you're gonna start seeing growth in 2 to H 20 is it you shaped so two to three quarters of a decline or deceleration revenue and you're kind of forecasting that growth in revenue as an organization to come back in 2021 is it l-shaped right so maybe three four five quarters of a decline or deceleration and then you know very minimal to moderate growth or none of the above you know your organization is actually benefiting from from from koban 19 as you know we've seen some many reports so those are kind of the options that we gave CIOs and you kind of see it on that first chart here interesting and this is a survey a flash service 700 CIOs or approximately and the interesting thing I really want to point out here is this you know the koban pandemic was it didn't suppress you know all companies you know and in the return it's not going to be a rising tide lifts all ships you really got to do your research you have to understand the different sectors really try to peel back the onion skin and understand why there's certain momentum how certain organizations are accommodating the work from home we heard you know several weeks ago how there's a major change in in networking mindsets we're talking about how security is changing we're going to talk about some of the permanence but it's really really important to try to understand these different trends by different industries which you're going to talk about in a minute but if you take a look at this slide I mean obviously most people expect this u-shaped decline I mean a you know a u-shaped recovery rather so it's two or three quarters followed by some growth next year but as we'll see some of these industries are gonna really go deeper with an l-shape recovery and then it's really interesting that a pretty large and substantial portion see this as a tailwind presumably those with you know strong SAS models some annual recurring revenue models your thoughts if we kind of star on this kind of aggregate chart you know you're looking at about forty four percent of CIOs anticipated u-shaped recovery right that's the largest bucket and then you can see another 15 percent and to say an l-shape recovery 14 on the v-shaped and then 16 percent to your point that are kind of seeing this this tailwind but if we kind of focus on that largest bucket that you shaped you know one of the thing to remember and again when we asked is two CIOs within the within this kind of coded flash poll we also asked can you give us some commentary and so one of the things that or one of the themes that are kind of coming along with this u-shaped recovery is you know CIOs are cautiously optimistic about this u-shaped recovery you know they believe that they can get back on to a growth cycle into 2021 as long as there's a vaccine available we don't go into a second wave of lockdowns economic activity picks up a lot of the government actions you know become effective so there are some kind of let's call it qualifiers with this bucket of CIOs that are anticipating a u-shape recovery what they're saying is that look we are expecting these things to happen we're not expecting that our lock down we are expecting a vaccine and if that takes place then we do expect an uptick in growth or going back to kind of pre coded levels in in 2021 but you know I think it's fair to assume that if one or more of these are apps and and things do get worse as all these states are opening up maybe the recovery cycle gets pushed along so kind of at the aggregate this is where we are right now yeah so as I was saying and you really have to understand the different not only different sectors and all the different vendors but you got to look into the industries and then even within industries so if we pull up the next chart we have the industry to the breakdown and sort of the responses by the industries v-shape you shape or shape I had a conversation with a CIO of a major resort just the other day and even he was saying what was actually I'll tell you it was Windham Resorts public company I mean and obviously that business got a good crush they had their earnings call the other day they talked about how they cut their capex in half but the stock sagar since the March lows is more than doubled yeah and you know that's amazing and now but even there within that sector they're peeling that on you're saying well certain parts are going to come back sooner or certain parts are going to longer depending on you know what type of resort what type of hotel so it really is a complicated situation so take us through what you're seeing by industry sure so let's start with kind of the IT telco retail consumer space Dave to your point there's gonna be a tremendous amount of bifurcation within both of those verticals look if we start on the IT telco side you know you're seeing a very large bucket of individuals right over twenty percent that indicated they're seeing a tail with our additional revenue because of covin 19 and you know Dave we spoke about this all the way back in March right all these work from home vendors you know CIOs were doubling down on cloud and SAS and we've seen how some of these events have reported in April you know with this very good reports all the major cloud vendors right select security vendors and so that's why you're seeing on the kind of telco side definitely more positivity right as it relates to recovery type right some of them are not even going through recovery they're they're seeing an acceleration same thing on the retail consumer side you're seeing another large bucket of people who are indicating what we've benefited and again there's going to be a lot of bifurcation here there's been a lot of retail consumers you just mentioned with the hotel lines that are definitely hurting but you know if you have a good online presence as a retailer and you know you had essential goods or groceries you benefited and and those are the organizations that we're seeing you know really indicate that they saw an acceleration due to Koga 19 so I thought those two those two verticals between kind of the IT and retail side there was a big bucket or you know of people who indicated positivity so I thought that was kind of the first kind of you know I was talking about kind of peeling this onion back you know that was really interesting you know tech continues to power on and I think you know a lot of people try I think that somebody was saying that the record of the time in which we've developed a fit of vaccine previously was like mumps or something and it was I mean it was just like years but now today 2020 we've got a I we've got all this data you've got these great companies all working on this and so you know wow if we can compress that that's going to change the equation a couple other things sagar that jump out at me here in this chart I want to ask you about I mean the education you know colleges are really you know kind of freaking out right now some are coming back I know like for instance my daughter University Arizona they're coming back in the fall evidently others are saying and no you can clearly see the airlines and transportation as the biggest sort of l-shape which is the most negative I'm sure restaurants and hospitality are kind of similar and then you see energy you know which got crushed we had you know oil you know negative people paying it big barrels of oil but now look at that you know expectation of a pretty strong you know you shape recovery as people start driving again and the economy picks up so maybe you could give us some thoughts on on some of those sort of outliers yeah so I kind of bucket you know the the next two outliers as from an l-shaped in a u-shaped so on the l-shaped side like like you said education airlines transportation and probably to a little bit lesser extent industrials materials manufacturing services consulting these verticals are indicating the highest percentages from an l-shaped recovery right so three plus orders of revenue declines and deceleration followed by kind of you know minimal to moderate growth and look there's no surprise here those are the verticals that have been impacted the most by less demand from consumers and and businesses and then as you mentioned on the energy utility side and then I would probably bucket maybe healthcare Pharma those have some of the largest percentages of u-shaped recovery and it's funny like I read a lot of commentary from some of the energy in the healthcare CIOs and they were said they were very optimistic about a u-shaped type of recovery and so it kind of you know maybe with those two issues then you could even kind of lump them into you know probably to a lesser extent but you could probably open into the prior one with the airlines and the education and services consulting and IMM where you know these are definitely the verticals that are going to see the longest longest recoveries it's probably a little bit more uniform versus what we've kind of talked about a few minutes ago with you know IT and and retail consumer where it's definitely very bifurcated you know there's definitely winners and losers there yeah and again it's a very complicated situation a lot of people that I've talked to are saying look you know we really don't have a clear picture that's why all these companies have are not giving guidance many people however are optimistic not only for a vet a vaccine but but but also they're thinking as young people with disposable income they're gonna kind of say dorm damn the torpedoes I'm not really going to be exposed and you know they can come back much stronger you know there seems to be pent up demand for some of the things like elective surgery or even the weather is sort of more important health care needs so that obviously could be a snap back so you know obviously we're really closely looking at this one thing though is is certain is that people are expecting a permanent change and you've got data that really shows that on the on the next chart that's right so one of the one of the last questions that we asked on this you know quick coded flash poll was do you anticipate permanent changes to your kind of IT stack IT spend based on the last few months you know as everyone has been working remotely and you know rarely do you see results point this much in one direction but 92% of CIOs and and kind of IT you know high level ITN users indicated yes there are going to be permanent changes and you know one of the things we talked about in March and look we were really the first ones you know you know in our discussion where we were talking about work from home spend kind of negating or balancing out all these declines right we were saying look yes we are seeing a lot of budgets come down but surprisingly we're seeing 2030 percent of organizations accelerate spent and even the ones that are spending less they even then you know some of their some of their budgets are kind of being negated by this work from home spend right when you think about collaboration tool is an additional VPN and networking bandwidth in laptops and then security all that stuff CIOs now continue to spend on because what what CIO is now understand as productivity has remained at very high levels right in March CIOs were very with the catastrophe and productivity that has not come true so on the margin CIOs and organizations are probably much more positive on that front and so now because there is no vaccine where you know CIOs and just in general the population we don't know when one is coming and so remote work seems to be the new norm moving forward especially that productivity you know levels are are pretty good with people working from home so from that perspective everything that looked like it was maybe going to be temporary just for the next few months as people work from home that's how organizations are now moving forward well and we saw Twitter basically said we're gonna make work from home permanent that's probably cuz their CEO wants to you know live in Africa Google I think is going to the end of the year I think many companies are going to look at a hybrid and give employees a choice say look if you want to work from home and you can be productive you get your stuff done you know we're cool with that I think the other point is you know everybody talks about these digital transformations you know leading into Kovan and I got to tell you I think a lot of companies were sort of complacent they talked the talk but they weren't walking the walk meaning they really weren't becoming digital businesses they really weren't putting data at the core and I think now it's really becoming an imperative there's no question that that what we've been talking about and forecasting has been pulled forward and you you're either going to have to step up your digital game or you're going to be in big trouble and the other thing that's I'm really interested in is will companies sub optimize profitability in the near term in order to put better business resiliency in place and better flexibility will they make those investments and I think if they do you know longer term they're going to be in better shape you know if they don't they could maybe be okay in the near term but I'm gonna put a caution sign a little longer term no look I think everything that's been done in the last few months you know in terms of having those continuation plans because you know do two pandemics all that stuff that is now it look you got to have that in your playbook right and so to your point you know this is where CIOs are going and if you're not transforming yourself or you didn't or you know lesson learned because now you're probably having to move twice as fast to support all your employees so I think you know this pandemic really kind of sped up you know digital transformation initiatives which is why you know you're seeing some companies desks and cloud related companies with very good earnings reports that are guiding well and then you're seeing other companies that are pulling their guidance because of uncertainty but it's it's likely more on the side of they're just not seeing the same levels of spend because if they haven't oriented themselves on that digital transformation side so I think you know events like this they typically you know Showcase winners and losers then you know when when things are going well and you know everything is kind of going up well I think that - there's a big you know discussion around is the ESPY overvalued right now I won't make that call but I will say this then there's a lot of data out there there's data and earnings reports there's data about this pandemic which change continues to change maybe not so much daily but you're getting new information multiple times a week so you got to look to that data you got to make your call pick your spot so you talk about a stock pickers market I think it's very much true here there are some some gonna be really strong companies emerging out of this you know don't gamble but do your research and I think you'll you'll find some you know some Dems out there you know maybe Warren Buffett can't find them okay but the guys at Main Street I think you know the I am I'm optimistic I wonder how you feel about about the recovery I I think we may be tainted by tech you know I'm very much concerned about certain industries but I think the tech industry which is our business is gonna come out of this pretty strong yeah we look at the one thing we we should we should have stated this earlier the majority of organizations are not expecting a v-shaped recovery and yet I still think there's part of the consensus is expecting a v-shaped recovery you can see as we demonstrate in some of the earlier charts the you know almost the majority of organizations are expecting a u-shaped recovery and even then as we mentioned right that you shape there is some cautious up around there and I have it you probably have it where yes if everything goes well it looks like 2021 we can really get back on track but there's so much unknown and so yes that does give I think everyone pause when it comes from an investment perspective and even just bringing on technologies and into your organization right which ones are gonna work which ones are it so I'm definitely on the boat of this is a more u-shaped in a v-shaped recovery I think the data backs that up I think you know when it comes to cloud and SAS players those areas and I think you've seen this on the investment side a lot of money has come out of all these other sectors that we mentioned that are having these l-shaped recoveries a lot of it has gone into the tech space I imagine that will continue and so that might be kind of you know it's tough to sometimes balance what's going on on the investor in the stock market side with you know how organizations are recovering I think people are really looking out in two to three quarters and saying look you know to your point where you set up earlier is there a lot of that pent up demand are things gonna get right back to normal because I think you know a lot of people are anticipating that and if we don't see that I think you know the next time we do some of these kind of coded flash bolts you know I'm interested to see whether or not you know maybe towards the end of the summer these recovery cycles are actually longer because maybe we didn't see some of that stuff so there's still a lot of unknowns but what we do know right now is it's not a v-shaped recovery agree especially on the unknowns there's monetary policy there's fiscal policy there's an election coming up there's a third there's escalating tensions with China there's your thoughts on the efficacy of the vaccine what about therapeutics you know do people who have this yet immunity how many people actually have it what about testing so the point I'm making here is it's very very important that you update your forecast regularly that's why it's so great that I have this partnership with you guys because we you know you're constantly updating the numbers it's not just a one-shot deal so suck it you know thanks so much for coming on looking forward to having you on in in the coming weeks really appreciate it absolutely yeah well I will really start kind of digging into how a lot of these emerging technologies are faring because of kovat 19 so that's I'm actually interested to start thinking through the data myself so yeah well we'll do some reporting in the coming weeks about that as well well thanks everybody for watching this episode of the cube insights powered by ETR I'm Dave Volante for sauger kuraki check out ETR dot plus that's where all the ETR data lives i published weekly on wiki bon calm and silicon angle calm and reach me at evil on Tay we'll see you next time [Music]