>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by: Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. And we're live here in Austin, Texas. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of the Cloud Native conference and KubeCon for Kubernetes Conference. This is for the Linux Foundation. This is theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of Silicon ANGLE Media. My co, Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Dustin Kirkland Vice-President of product. The Ubuntu, Canonical, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, John. >> So you're the product guy. You get the keys to the kingdom, as they would say in the product circles. Man, what a best time to be-- >> Dustin: They always say that. I don't think I've heard that one. >> Well, the product guys are, well all the action's happening on the product side. >> Dustin: We're right in the middle of it. >> Cause you got to have a road map. You got to have a 20 mile steer on the next horizon while you go up into the pasture and deliver value, but you always got to be watching for it always making decision on what to do, when to ship product, not you got the Cloud things are happening at a very accelerated rate. And then you got to bring it out to the customers. >> That's right. >> You're livin' on both sides of the world You got to look inside, you got to look outside. >> All three. There's the marketing angle too. which is what we're doing here right now. So there's engineering sales and this is the marketing. >> Alright so where are we with this? Because now you guys have always been on the front lines of open source. Great track record. Everyone knows the history there. What are the new things? What's the big aha moment that this event, largest they've had ever. They're not even three years old. Why is this happening? >> I love seeing these events in my hometown Austin, Texas. So I hope we keep coming back. The aha moment is how application development is fundamentally changing. Cloud Native is the title of the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and CloudNativeConference here. What does Cloud Native mean? It's a different form of writing applications. Just before we were talking about systems programing right? That's not exactly Cloud Native. Cloud Native programming is writing to API's that are Cloud exposed API's, integrating with software as a service. Creating applications that have no intelligence, whatsoever, about what's underneath them, Right? But taking advantage of that and all the ways that you would want and expect in a modern application. Fault tolerance, automatic updates, hyper security. Just security, security, security. That is the aha moment. The way applications are being developed is fundamentally changing. >> Interesting perspective we had on earlier. Lew Tucker from Cisco, (mumbles) in the (mumbles) History Museum, CTO at Cisco, and we have Kelsey Hightower co-chair for this conference and also very active in the community. Yet, in the perspective, and I'll over simplify and generalize it, but basically was: Hey, that's been going on for 30 years, it's just different now. Tell us the old way and new way. Because the old way, you kind of describing it you're going to build your own stuff, full stack, building all parts of the stack and do a lot of stuff that you didn't want to do. And now you have more, especially time on your hands if DevOps and infrastructure as code starts to happen. But doesn't mean that networking goes away, doesn't mean storage goes away, that some new lines are forming. Describe that dynamic of what's new and the new way what changes from the old way? >> Virtualization has brought about a different way of thinking about resources. Be those compute resources, chopping CPU's up into virtual CPU's, that's KVM ware. You mentioned network and storage. Now we virtualized both of those into software defined storage and software defined networking, right? We have things like OpenStack that brings that all together from an infrastructure perspective. and we now have Kubernetes that brings that to fare from an application perspective. Kubernetes helps you think about applications in a different way. I said that paradigm has changed. It's Kubernetes that helps implement that paradigm. So that developers can write an application to a container orchestrator like Kubernetes and take advantage of many of the advances we've made below that layer in the operating system and in the Cloud itself. So from that perspective the game has changed and the way you write your application is not the same as a the monolithic app we might have written on an IBM or a traditional system. >> Dustin, you say monolithic app versus oh my gosh the multi layered cake that we have today. We were talking about the keynote this morning where CNCF went from four projects to 14 projects, you got Kubernetes, You got things like DSDU on top. Help up tease that a little bit. What are the ones that, where's canonical engaged? What are you hearing from customers? What are they excited about? What are they still looking for? >> In a somewhat self-serving way, I'll use this opportunity to explain exactly what we do in helping build that layered cake. It starts with the OS. We provide a great operating system, Ubuntu that every developer would certainly know and understand and appreciate. That's the kernel, that's the systemd, that's the hyperviser, that's all the storage and drivers that makes an operating system work well on hardware. Lot's of hardware, IBM, Dell HP, Intel, all the rest. As well as in virtual machines, the public Clouds, Microsoft, Amazon, Google, VM ware and others. So, we take care of that operating system perspective. Within the CNCF and within in the Kubernetes ecosystem, It really starts with the Kubernetes distribution. So we provide a Kubernetes distribution, we call it Canonicals Distribution of Kubernetes, CDK. Which is open source Kubernetes with security patches applied. That's it. No special sauce, no extra proprietary extensions. It is open source Kubernetes. The reference platform for open source Kubernetes 100% conformed. Now, once you have Kubernetes as you say, "What are you hearing from customers?" We hear a lot of customers who want a Kubernetes. Once they have a Kubernetes, the next question is: "Now what do I do with it?" If they have applications that their developers have been writing to Google's Kubernetes Engine GKE, or Amazon's Kubernetes Engine, the new one announced last week at re:Invent, AKS. Or Microsoft's Kubernetes Engine, Microsoft-- >> Microsoft's AKS, Amazons EKS. A lot of TLA's out there, always. >> Thank you for the TLA dissection. If you've written the applications already having your own Kubernetes is great, because then your applications simply port and run on that. And we help customers get there. However, if you haven't written your first application, that's where actually, most of the industry is today. They want a Kubernetes, but they're not sure why. So, to that end, we're helping bring some of the interesting workloads that exists, open source workloads and putting those on top of Canonical Kubernetes. Yesterday, we press released a new product from Canonical, launched in conjunction with our partners at Rancher Labs, Which is the Cloud Native platform. The Cloud Native platform is Ubuntu plus Kubernetes plus Rancher. That combination, we've heard from customers and from users of Ubuntu inside and out. Everyone's interested in a developer work flow that includes open-source Ubuntu, open-source Kubernetes and open-source Rancher, Which really accelerates the velocity of development. And that end solution provides exactly that and it helps populate, that Kubernetes with really interesting workloads. >> Dustin, so we know Sheng, Shannon and the team, they know a thing or two about building stacks with open source. We've talked with you many times, OpenStack. Give us a little bit of compare and contrast, what we've been doing with OpenStack with Canonical, very heavily involved, doing great there versus the Cloud Native stacking. >> If you know Shannon and Sheng, I think you can understand and appreciate why Mark, myself and the rest of the Canonical team are really excited about this partnership. We really see eye-to-eye on open source principles First. Deliver great open source experiences first. And then taking that to market with a product that revolves around support. Ultimately, developer option up front is what's important, and some of those developer applications will make its way into production in a mission critical sense. Which open up support opportunities for both of us. And we certainly see eye-to-eye from that perspective. What we bring to bare is Ubuntu ecosystem of developers. The Ubuntu OpenStack infrastructure is a service where we've seen many of the world's largest organizations deploying their OpenStacks. Doing so on Ubuntu and with Ubuntu OpenStacks. With the launch of Kubernetes and Canonical Kubernetes, many of those same organizations are running their own Kubernetes along side OpenStack. Or, in some cases, on top of OpenStack. In a very few cases, instead of Openstack, in very special cases, often at the Edge or in certain tiny Cloud or micro Cloud scenarios. In all of these we see Rancher as a really, really good partner in helping to accelerate that developer work flow. Enabling developers to write code, commit code to GitHub repository, with full GitHub integration. Authenticate against an active directory with full RBAC controls. Everything that you would need in an enterprise to bring that application to bare from concept, to development, to test into production, and then the life cycle, once it gains its own life in production. >> What about the impact of customers? So, I'm an IT guy or I'm an architect and man, all this new stuff's comin' at me. I love my open source, I'm happy with space. I don't want to touch it, don't want to break it, but I want to innovate. This whole world can be a little bit noisy and new to them. How do you have that conversation with that potential customer or customer where you say, Look, we can get there. Use your app team here's what you want to shape up to be, here's service meshes and plugable, Whoa plugable (mumbles)! So, again, how do you simplify that when you have conversations? What's the narrative? What's the conversation like? >> Usually our introduction into the organization of a Fortune 500 company is by the developers inside of that company who already know Ubuntu. Who already have some experience with Kubernetes or have some experience with Rancher or any of those other-- >> So it's a bottoms up? >> Yeah, it's bottoms up. Absolutely, absolutely. The developer network around Ubuntu is far bigger than the organization that is Canonical. So that helps us with the intro. Once we're in there, and the developers write those first few apps, we do get the introductions to their IT director who then wants that comfy blanket. Customer support, maybe 24 by seven-- >> What's the experience like? Is it like going to the airport, go through TSA, and you got to take your shoes off, take your belt off. What kind of inspection, what is kind of is the culture because they want to move fast, but they got to be sure. There's always been the challenge when you have the internal advocate saying, "Look, if we want to go this way "this is going to be more the reality for companies." Developers are now major influencers. Not just some, here's the product we made a decision and they ship it to 'em, it's shifted. >> If there's one thing that I've learned in this sort of product management assignment, I'm a engineer by trade, but as a product manager now for almost five years, is that you really have to look at the different verticals and some verticals move at vastly different paces than other verticals. When we are in the tele close phase, We're in RFI's, requests for a quote or a request for information that may last months, nine months. And then go through entering into a procurement process that may last another nine months. And we're talking about 18 months in an industry here that is spinning up, we're talking about how fast this goes, which is vastly different than the work we do in Silicon Valley, right? With some of the largest dot-coms in the world that are built on Ubuntu, maybe an AWS or else where. Their adoption curve is significantly different and the procurement angle is really different. What they're looking to buy often on the US West Coast is not so much support, but they're looking to guide your roadmap. We offer for customers of that size and scale a different set of products something we call feature sponsorships, where those customers are less interested in 24 by seven telephone support and far more interested in sponsoring certain features into Ubuntu itself and helping drive the Ubuntu roadmap. We offer both of those a products and different verticals buy in different ways. We talked to media and entertainment, and the conversation's completely different. Oil and gas, conversation's completely different. >> So what are you doing here? What's the big effort at CloudNativeCon? >> So we've got a great booth and we're talking about Ubuntu as a pretty universal platform for almost anything you're doing in the Cloud. Whether that's on frame infrastructure as a service, OpenStack. People can coo coo OpenStack and point OpenStack versus Kubernetes against one another. We cannot see it more differently-- >> Well no I think it's more that it's got clarity on where the community's lines are because apps guys are moving off OpenStack that's natural. It's really found the home, OpenStack very relevant huge production flow, I talk to Johnathon Bryce about this all the time. There's no co cooing OpenStack. It's not like it's hurting. Just to clarify OpenStack is not going anywhere its just that there's been some comments about OpenStack refugees going to (mumbles), but they're going there anyway! Do you agree? >> Yeah I agree, and that choice is there on Ubuntu. So infrastructure is a service, OpenStack's a fantastic platform, platforms as a service or Cloud Native through Cloud Native development Kubernetes is an excellent platform. We see those running side by side. Two racks a systems or a single rack. Half of those machines are OpenStack, Half of those are Kubernetes and the same IT department manages both. We see IT departments that are all in OpenStack. Their entire data center is OpenStack. And we see Kubernetes as one workload inside of that Openstack. >> How do you see Kubernetes impact on containers? A lot of people are coo cooing containers. But they're not going anywhere either. >> It's fundamental. >> The ecosystem's changing, certainly the roles of each part (mumbles) is exploding. How do you talk about that? What's your opinion on how containers are evolving? >> Containers are evolving, but they've been around for a very long time as well. Kubernetes has helped make containers consumable. And doctored to an extent, before that the work we've done around Linux containers LXE LEXT as well. All of those technologies are fundamental to it and it take tight integration with the OS. >> Dustin, so I'm curious. One of the big challenges I have the U face is the proliferation of deployments for customers. It's not just data center or even Cloud. Edge is now a very big piece of it. How do you think that containers helps enable the little bit of that Cloud Native goes there, but what kind of stresses does that put on your product organization? >> Containers are adding fuel to the fire on both the Edge and the back end Cloud. What's exciting to me about the Edge is that every Edge device, every connected device is connected to something. What's it connected to, a Cloud somewhere. And that can be an OpenStack Cloud or a Kubernetes Cloud, that can be a public Cloud, that could be a private implementation of that Cloud. But every connected device, whether its a car or a plane or a train or a printer or a drone it's connected to something, it's connected to a bunch of services. We see containers being deployed on Ubuntu on those Edge devices, as the packaging format, as the application format, as the multi-tendency layer that keeps one application from DOSing or attacking or being protected from another application on that Edge device. We also see containers running the micro services in the Cloud on Ubuntu there as well. The Edge to me, is extremely interesting in how it ties back to the Cloud and to be transparent here, Canonical strategy and Canonical's play is actually quiet strong here with Ubuntu providing quite a bit of consistency across those two layers. So developers working on those applications on those devices, are often sitting right next to the developers working on those applications in the Cloud and both of them are seeing Ubuntu helping them go faster. >> Bottom line, where do you see the industry going and how do you guys fit into the next three years, what's your prediction? >> I'm going to go right back to what I was saying right there. That the connection between the Edge and the Cloud is our angle right there, and there is nothing that's stopping that right now. >> We were just talking with Joe Beda and our view is if it's a shoot and computing world, everything's an Edge. >> Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. >> (mumbles) is an Edge. A light in a house is an Edge with a processor in it. >> So I think the data centers are getting smarter. You wanted a prediction for next year: The data center is getting smarter. We're seeing autonomous data centers. We see data centers using metals as a service mask to automatically provision those systems and manage those systems in a way that hardware look like a Cloud. >> AI and IOT, certainly two topics that are really hot trends that are very relevant as changing storage and networking those industries have to transform. Amazon's tele (mumbles), everything like LAN and serverless, you're starting to see the infrastructure as code take shape. >> And that's what sits on top of Kubernetes. That's what's driving Kubernetes adoption are those AI machine learning artificial intelligence workloads. A lot of media and transcoding workloads are taking advantage of Kubernetes everyday. >> Bottom line, that's software. Good software, smart software. Dustin, Thanks so much for coming theCube. We really appreciate it. Congratulations. Continued developer success. Good to have a great ecosystem. You guys have been successful for a very long time. As the world continues to be democratized with software as it gets smarter more pervasive and Cloud computing, grid computing, Unigrid. Whatever it's called it is all done by software and the Cloud. Thanks for coming on. It's theCube live coverage from Austin, Texas, here at KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, We'll be back with more after this short break. (lively music)

>> Narrator: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the Cube covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack foundation, RedHat, and additional ecosystem support. >> Hi. I'm Stu Miniman here with my cohost John Troyer. Happy to welcome to the program to the program, Carlos Carrera, who's a senior principal product manager with Veritas. Carlos, great to see you. >> Yeah, thank you very much. >> Stu: Alright. >> Great to be here. >> So, so many of the things we talk to here in OpenStack and the Cloud World, is relatively short-lived. The average lifetime of the average Cloud deployment, is like 1.7 years. You've been at Veritas at little bit longer with that, had an opportunity to have a conversation with you about some of your history, so we're going to have to take the abbreviated format of that, but give us a little bit about, you know, your time at Veritas, some of the ebbs and flows of your career. >> Yeah, well, again, thank you for having me here. It's great. Having 16 years with Veritas, as I mentioned before to you, you know, back in 1994, 1995 we created the first file system and volume manager, right. A lot of things happened since then, right. At that point in time, the software defined storage store was not yet there. Back, many years ago, we got some piece of software, running on top of any kind of hardware and we were able to help customers to move workloads from one place to another. In a very agnostic point of view, right. And then we move into clouds and now, three years ago, we started looking into what do we do with OpenStack clouds, because this is going to define... It's going to need something very new, something different. So today, this week, we are very happy because we finally announced hyper scale for open stack, which is a software defined storage solution that has been built for an OpenStack clouds. >> When I look at the industry these days, the term lately is storage services. How we're doing things in software more, open stack is the open source infrastructure piece. You guys are the hipster player in this space. You were doing software defined storage and software services not attached to everything else beforehand so it sounds like openstack's a natural fit. Tell us a little bit more about how Veritas fits into that. >> Well, I think that again, it was a perfect fit but we had to review what we was doing. Okay, because again, I've been many years... I was working with traditional legacy architectures in the past. We had to work class defined system that today can work with 128 notes. But we revisit... Is this what we really need to the new OpenStack clouds, are they going to scale? And as you said is that what I need the storage services. So what do we have to rethink? What do we have to do to provide those storage services to the OpenStack clouds? So three years ago, we had this, we call open flame project that today is Hyperscale. It has been building from scratch. New product, what we call emerging product at Veritas, and finally we got separated from Semantec, and we got all the visibility on the storage gain. And using all the knowhow that we have in history, as I say, we're a very big startup, right? But now, emerging with new products, we need new solutions that have been designed for OpenStack from scratch. >> Could you drill down on the product itself? Is this file block object storage? Is this sitting on top of servers. Laid off in a server-based way? How does it interact with OpenStack drivers? That sort of thing. >> Yeah, that's a good question. So it is senior storage. What we provide is block storage for OpenStack. Something key, it is based on commodity hardware of your choice, so you decided what is the hardware that you want to use. Really, it's 86 servers that you can choose in the market, whatever you want. And one of the key differentiators is that we provide block storage, but we separate the compute plane and the data plane. And this is an architectural decision we had to take three years ago. We said we cannot scale, we cannot provide the storage services that you need in a single layer of storage. Because that is what most of the software defined storage solutions on the market are doing today. And then they're having problems with things like noisy neighbor. They have problems with things like the scalability, like the quality of service, and of course they're having problems with protection. How do I protect my cloud environments with OpenStack? And we as a net pack of company, we have our leading net backup solution, we hear that from our customers. That it is not that we're bringing another solution that is going to bring another noisy neighborhood, so we really have to separate two layers. Compute plane, where you have your first copy, and the data plane, where you use cheaper and deeper storage to keep the second, third copy, and do all the data mining operations. >> That's interesting what you just said there too. Two copies, so you do have a copy that's close to the compute. But then you have another. >> Correct. Because, again, if you take a look to what you have in the market, typically it's one-size-fits-all. So, do you need three copies for everything? And today, you have emerging technologies. You can have things like mySQL, where you need high performance, or you can have things like Cassandra where you need nine copies of them, because the application itself is giving you the resiliency. So if you use a standard solution that for each OpenStack instance, you have three copies, that means you have three copies, three copies, three copies. So nine copies. And it's not only the number of copies. It's that when you make a write, you're writing nine times. And you're writing on the single layer. So we said, we have to separate that. The first thing is that what is the workload? Stop thinking about the storage. Stop thinking this is a pool of SSDs or a pool of HCDs, and then start thinking about the workload. And then we connected that very well with OpenStack because OpenStack, you have the definition of flavors, right? That is how many CPUs do you need? How much memory? But also we extend those flavors to say what do you need in terms of storage? What is the resiliency level that you need? What is the number of copies? What is the minimum performance that you need? What is the maximum performance? It's not only about solving the noisy neighbor with the maximum performance? About limiting, it's about guaranteeing that you are going to have a minimum number of IOs per second. At the end, what you can get, you can have a mySQL running with high performance needs with web servers of the same box without fighting each other. >> Carlos, can you speak a little bit about how customers consume this, how do they buy it, how's it priced? How do you get it to market? We've taught before with Veritas. Storage used to always be in an appliance or an array or things like that and the software cloud world's a little bit differently. How does that fit? >> So today's software only? So you make that decision about what hardware to use. We try to simplify the go to market model. So it's based on subscription. You just pay for the max capacity that you have. And you only pay for what you have at the compute plane. So I think a simple model that we could find to go in the open source projects, and being able to attach to that. >> Okay, could you speak to... When you talk about go to market from a partnership standpoint, it's a big market out there. Veritas, well-known name for many years but what partners are involved in this? Any certifications that are needed? We're working with our typical partners that have some expertise with OpenStack and helping with them. We are now also working with hardware providers. We are working with Supermicro and creating reference architectures with them. So we can have at the end, we have to explain to the customers what they can get from different hardware. So we're working with them. And we're also working with new partners. For example, yesterday with us on the stage, we have Verbanks. Verbanks is an OpenStack ambassador in Netherlands. They have been working with us from the very beginning of the project, on the validation. They understand OpenStack. They understand the issues and they have been doing all the validation with us about, yes guys, this is the right thing. You have to do it from the very beginning. Is this product tuned specifically for OpenStack or will it be available for other kind of private cloud applications. >> We have available for OpenStack, we're going to have it. We'll announce, I think we'll watch with you also, guys, we announced the beta version for Containers. At the end, it's the same thing. It's how do you provide persistent storage for Containers? Ninety percent of the product is all the same. It's that compute plane. It's the data plane. How can I protect my workload from the data plane? Because again, it doesn't matter if it's Container. If it's OpenStack, when I have to protect it, how do I do it? How can I read my data without affecting the performance? And that's where we have the value with the data plane. And, of course, our integration with net backup, our leader of backup solutions in the market, where just with a single click, I'm going to connect OpenStack with NetBackup, and define how my workloads are going to be protected, when and how? >> Here at the show, OpenStack Summit, how has it been working with the community? Sometimes, in the open source world, vendors have to have a certain kind of conversation with that open source community to show that they understand their needs and what they need out of the relationship. How has the week been then? >> So yeah, that's a very good question. And that goes to something that we want to announce hopefully at the end of the year. The first version that we announced this week is based on canonical Ubuntu OpenStack. At the end of the year, we are going to have RedHat, and in our DNA is to be agnostic to the pass, any hardware. And of course now, it's any kind of OpenStack distribution. So we will work with any of them. And something that we want to announce at the end of the year is to have a community edition, for Hyperscale. So again, that is our offering to the community. They can both provide-- >> And would that community edition itself be open source, or just available for the community? >> It would be available for that. >> John: For the community. >> We keep our IP. >> Great. As we get towards the end of the event, I'm sure you've had plenty of interesting customer conversations. Any one, I'm sure you can't mention names, but any interesting anecdote or just a general feel of the community? >> I feel that my anecdote for yesterday, when I had to work presentation, we had a customer on the room. We had been working on a POC with them. We have been very, very helpful customer. We finished. "Do you have any questions?" This guys stands up, went to the microphone and I was thinking, what is he going to ask? He knows everything about the product. And he said, he guys, you are doing the right thing. This is great. I'm fantastic, you are bringing a lot of value here. So I was like, wow. >> In my understanding, it was a big brand name customer who actually said where he was from, which is great validation, something we've heard all week is there's that sharing here with the community, so financial companies who, in the past, wouldn't have done that, TelCos who do that in the past, great to see. Give me the final word, Carlos. >> Yeah, the thing, again, is as you said validation is a key thing. I've been a lot of years in the company. I got this project eight months ago, and all the things I've been doing is validation, talking to customers to I don't know how many analysts I've been talking to in this week. And I love Dan said, yeah, you guys are doing the right thing. This is that direction that we have to move, so happy that finally, emerging again from Veritas, being back here with the community on OpenStack. >> Well, the speed of change, constant learning on new things and helping customers move forward. Big theme we've seen in the show. Carlos Carrera. I appreciate you joining us here. For John and Stu, thanks for watching The Cube here at OpenStack Summit. (mid-tempo electronic music)