(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Supercloud 2 this is Dave Vellante. We're here exploring the intersection of data and analytics and the future of cloud. And in this segment, we're going to look at the evolution of cloud, and try to test some of the Supercloud concepts and assumptions with Brian Gracely, is the founder and co-host along with Aaron Delp of the popular Cloudcast program. Amazing series, if you're not already familiar with it. The Cloudcast is one of the best ways to keep up with so many things going on in our industry. Enterprise tech, platform engineering, business models, obviously, cloud developer trends, crypto, Web 3.0. Sorry Brian, I know that's a sore spot, but Brian, thanks for coming >> That's okay. >> on the program, really appreciate it. >> Yeah, great to be with you, Dave. Happy New Year, and great to be back with everybody with SiliconANGLE again this year. >> Yeah, we love having you on. We miss working with you day-to-day, but I want to start with Gracely's theorem, which basically says, I'm going to paraphrase. For the most part, nothing new gets introduced in the enterprise tech business, patterns repeat themselves, maybe get applied in new ways. And you know this industry well, when something comes out that's new, if you take virtualization, for example, been around forever with mainframes, but then VMware applied it, solve a real problem in the client service system. And then it's like, "Okay, this is awesome." We get really excited and then after a while we pushed the architecture, we break things, introduce new things to fix the things that are broken and start adding new features. And oftentimes you do that through acquisitions. So, you know, has the cloud become that sort of thing? And is Supercloud sort of same wine, new bottle, following Gracely's theorem? >> Yeah, I think there's some of both of it. I hate to be the sort of, it depends sort of answer but, I think to a certain extent, you know, obviously Cloud in and of itself was, kind of revolutionary in that, you know, it wasn't that you couldn't rent things in the past, it was just being able to do it at scale, being able to do it with such amazing self-service. And then, you know, kind of proliferation of like, look at how many services I can get from, from one cloud, whether it was Amazon or Azure or Google. And then, you know, we, we slip back into the things that we know, we go, "Oh, well, okay, now I can get computing on demand, but, now it's just computing." Or I can get database on demand and it's, you know, it's got some of the same limitations of, of say, of database, right? It's still, you know, I have to think about IOPS and I have to think about caching, and other stuff. So, I think we do go through that and then we, you know, we have these sort of next paradigms that come along. So, you know, serverless was another one of those where it was like, okay, it seems sort of new. I don't have to, again, it was another level of like, I don't have to think about anything. And I was able to do that because, you know, there was either greater bandwidth available to me, or compute got cheaper. And what's been interesting is not the sort of, that specific thing, serverless in and of itself is just another way of doing compute, but the fact that it now gets applied as, sort of a no-ops model to, you know, again, like how do I provision a database? How do I think about, you know, do I have to think about the location of a service? Does that just get taken care of for me? So I think the Supercloud concept, and I did a thing and, and you and I have talked about it, you know, behind the scenes that maybe the, maybe a better name is Super app for something like Snowflake or other, but I think we're, seeing these these sort of evolutions over and over again of what were the big bottlenecks? How do we, how do we solve those bottlenecks? And I think the big thing here is, it's never, it's very rarely that you can take the old paradigm of what the thing was, the concept was, and apply it to the new model. So, I'll just give you an example. So, you know, something like VMware, which we all know, wildly popular, wildly used, but when we apply like a Supercloud concept of VMware, the concept of VMware has always been around a cluster, right? It's some finite number of servers, you sort of manage it as a cluster. And when you apply that to the cloud and you say, okay, there's, you know, for example, VMware in the cloud, it's still the same concept of a cluster of VMware. But yet when you look at some of these other services that would fit more into the, you know, Supercloud kind of paradigm, whether it's a Snowflake or a MongoDB Atlas or maybe what CloudFlare is doing at the edge, those things get rid of some of those old paradigms. And I think that's where stuff, you start to go, "Oh, okay, this is very different than before." Yes, it's still computing or storage, or data access, but there's a whole nother level of something that we didn't carry forward from the previous days. And that really kind of breaks the paradigm. And so that's the way I think I've started to think about, are these things really brand new? Yes and no, but I think it's when you can see that big, that thing that you didn't leave behind isn't there anymore, you start to get some really interesting new innovation come out of it. >> Yeah. And that's why, you know, lift and shift is okay, when you talk to practitioners, they'll say, "You know, I really didn't change my operating model. And so I just kind of moved it into the cloud. there were some benefits, but it was maybe one zero not three zeros that I was looking for." >> Right. >> You know, we always talk about what's great about cloud, the agility, and all the other wonderful stuff that we know, what's not working in cloud, you know, tie it into multi-cloud, you know, in terms of, you hear people talk about multi-cloud by accident, okay, that's true. >> Yep. >> What's not great about cloud. And then I want to get into, you know, is multi-cloud really a problem or is it just sort of vendor hype? But, but what's not working in cloud? I mean, you mentioned serverless and serverless is kind of narrow, right, for a lot of stateless apps, right? But, what's not great about cloud? >> Well, I think there's a few things that if you ask most people they don't love about cloud. I think, we can argue whether or not sort of this consolidation around a few cloud providers has been a good thing or a bad thing. I think, regardless of that, you know, we are seeing, we are hearing more and more people that say, look, you know, the experience I used to have with cloud when I went to, for example, an Amazon and there was, you know, a dozen services, it was easy to figure out what was going on. It was easy to figure out what my billing looked like. You know, now they've become so widespread, the number of services they have, you know, the number of stories you just hear of people who went, "Oh, I started a service over in US West and I can't find it anymore 'cause it's on a different screen. And I, you know, I just got billed for it." Like, so I think the sprawl of some of the clouds has gotten, has created a user experience that a lot of people are frustrated with. I think that's one thing. And we, you know, we see people like Digital Ocean and we see others who are saying, "Hey, we're going to be that simplified version." So, there's always that yin and yang. I think people are super frustrated at network costs, right? So, you know, and that's kind of at a lot of, at the center of maybe why we do or don't see more of these Supercloud services is just, you know, in the data center as an application owner, I didn't have to think about, well where, where does this go to? Where are my users? Yes, somebody took care of it, but when those things become front and center, that's super frustrating. That's the one area that we've seen absolutely no cost savings, cost reduction. So I think that frustrates people a lot. And then I think the third piece is just, you know, we're, we went from super centralized IT organizations, which, you know, for decades was how it worked. It was part of the reason why the cloud expanded and became a thing, right? Sort of shadow IT and I can't get things done. And then, now what we've seen is sort of this proliferation of little pockets of groups that are your IT, for lack of a better thing, whether they're called platform engineering or SRE or DevOps. But we have this, expansion, explosion if you will, of groups that, if I'm an app dev team, I go, "Hey, you helped me make this stuff run, but then the team next to you has another group and they have another group." And so you see this explosion of, you know, we don't have any standards in the company anymore. And, so sort of self-service has created its own nightmare to a certain extent for a lot of larger companies. >> Yeah. Thank you for that. So, you know, I want, I want to explore this multi-cloud, you know, by accident thing and is a real problem. You hear that a lot from vendors and we've been talking about Supercloud as this unifying layer across cloud. You know, but when you talk to customers, a lot of them are saying, "Yes, we have multiple clouds in our organization, but my group, we have mono cloud, we know the security, edicts, we know how to, you know, deal with the primitives, whether it's, you know, S3 or Azure Blob or whatever it is. And we're very comfortable with this." It's, that's how we're simplifying. So, do you think this is really a problem? Does it have merit that we need that unifying layer across clouds, or is it just too early for that? >> I think, yeah, I think what you, what you've laid out is basically how the world has played out. People have picked a cloud for a specific application or a series of applications. Yeah, and I think if you talk to most companies, they would tell you, you know, holistically, yes, we're multi-cloud, not, maybe not necessarily on, I don't necessarily love the phrase where people say like, well it happened by accident. I think it happened on purpose, but we got to multi-cloud, not in the way that maybe that vendors, you know, perceived, you know, kind of laid out a map for. So it was, it was, well you will lay out this sort of Supercloud framework. We didn't call it that back then, we just called it sort of multi-cloud. Maybe it was Kubernetes or maybe it was whatever. And different groups, because central IT kind of got disbanded or got fragmented. It turned into, go pick the best cloud for your application, for what you need to do for the business. And then, you know, multiple years later it was like, "Oh, hold on, I've got 20% in Google and 50% in AWS and I've got 30% in Azure. And, you know, it's, yeah, it's been evolution. I don't know that it's, I don't know if it's a mistake. I think it's now groups trying to figure out like, should I make sense of it? You know, should I try and standardize and I backwards standardize some stuff? I think that's going to be a hard thing for, for companies to do. 'cause I think they feel okay with where the applications are. They just happen to be in multiple clouds. >> I want to run something by you, and you guys, you and Aaron have talked about this. You know, still depending on who, which keynote you listen to, small percentage of the workloads are actually in cloud. And when you were with us at Wikibon, I think we called it true private cloud, and we looked at things like Nutanix and there were a lot of other examples of companies that were trying to replicate the hyperscale experience on Prem. >> Yeah. >> And, we would evaluate that, you know, beyond virtualization, and so we sort of defined that and, but I think what's, maybe what's more interesting than Supercloud across clouds is if you include that, that on Prem estate, because that's where most of the work is being done, that's where a lot of the proprietary tools have been built, a lot of data, a lot of software. So maybe there's this concept of sending that true private cloud to true hybrid cloud. So I actually think hybrid cloud in some cases is the more interesting use case for so-called Supercloud. What are your thoughts on that? >> Yeah, I think there's a couple aspects too. I think, you know, if we were to go back five or six years even, maybe even a little further and look at like what a data center looked like, even if it was just, "Hey we're a data center that runs primarily on VMware. We use some of their automation". Versus what you can, even what you can do in your data center today. The, you know, the games that people have seen through new types of automation through Kubernetes, through get ops, and a number of these things, like they've gotten significantly further along in terms of I can provision stuff really well, I can do multi-tenancy, I can do self-service. Is it, you know, is it still hard? Yeah. Because those things are hard to do, but there's been significant progress there. I don't, you know, I still look for kind of that, that killer application, that sort of, you know, lighthouse use case of, hybrid applications, you know, between data center and between cloud. I think, you know, we see some stuff where, you know, backup is a part of it. So you use the cloud for storage, maybe you use the cloud for certain kinds of resiliency, especially on maybe front end load balancing and stuff. But I think, you know, I think what we get into is, this being hung up on hybrid cloud or multi-cloud as a term and go like, "Look, what are you trying to measure? Are you trying to measure, you know, efficiency of of of IT usage? Are you trying to measure how quickly can I give these business, you know, these application teams that are part of a line of business resources that they need?" I think if we start measuring that way, we would look at, you know, you'd go, "Wow, it used to be weeks and months. Now we got rid of these boards that have to review everything every time I want to do a change management type of thing." We've seen a lot more self-service. I think those are the things we want to measure on. And then to your point of, you know, where does, where do these Supercloud applications fit in? I think there are a bunch of instances where you go, "Look, I have a, you know, global application, I have a thing that has to span multiple regions." That's where the Supercloud concept really comes into play. We used to do it in the data center, right? We'd had all sorts of technologies to help with that, I think you can now start to do it in the cloud. >> You know, one of the other things, trying to understand, your thoughts on this, do you think that you, you again have talked about this, like I'm with you. It's like, how is it that Google's losing, you know, 3 billion dollars a year, whatever. I mean, because when you go back and look at Amazon, when they were at that level of revenue where Google is today, they were making money, you know, and they were actually growing faster, by the way. So it's kind of interesting what's happened with Google. But, the reason I bring that up is, trying to understand if you think the hyperscalers will ever be motivated to create standards across clouds, and that may be a play for Google. I mean, obviously with Kubernetes it was like a Hail Mary and kind of made them relevant. Where would Google be without Kubernetes? But then did it achieve the objectives? We could have that conversation some other time, but do you think the hyperscalers will actually say, "Okay, we're going to lean in and create these standards across clouds." Because customers would love that, I would think, but it would sub-optimize their competitive advantage. What are your thoughts? >> I think, you know, on the surface, I would say they, they probably aren't. I think if you asked 'em the question, they would say, "Well, you know, first and foremost, you know, we do deliver standards, so we deliver a, you know, standard SQL interface or a SQL you know, or a standard Kubernetes API or whatever. So, in that, from that perspective, you know, we're not locking you into, you know, an Amazon specific database, or a Google specific database." You, you can argue about that, but I think to a certain extent, like they've been very good about, "Hey, we're going to adopt the standards that people want." A lot of times the open source standards. I think the problem is, let's say they did come up with a standard for it. I think you still have the problem of the costs of migration and you know, the longer you've, I think their bet is basically the longer you've been in some cloud. And again, the more data you sort of compile there, the data gravity concept, there's just going to be a natural thing that says, okay, the hurdle to get over to say, "Look, we want to move this to another cloud", becomes so cost prohibitive that they don't really have to worry about, you know, oh, I'm going to get into a war of standards. And so far I think they sort of realize like that's the flywheel that the cloud creates. And you know, unless they want to get into a world where they just cut bandwidth costs, like it just kind of won't happen. You know, I think we've even seen, and you know, the one example I'll use, and I forget the name of it off the top of my head, but there's a, there's a Google service. I think it's like BigQuery external or something along those lines, that allows you to say, "Look, you can use BigQuery against like S3 buckets and against other stuff." And so I think the cloud providers have kind of figured out, I'm never going to get the application out of that other guy's cloud or you know, the other cloud. But maybe I'm going to have to figure out some interesting ways to sort of work with it. And, you know, it's a little bit, it's a little janky, but that might be, you know, a moderate step that sort of gets customers where they want to be. >> Yeah. Or you know, it'd be interesting if you ever see AWS for example, running its database in other clouds, you started, even Oracle is doing that with, with with Azure, which is a form of Supercloud. My last question for you is, I want to get you thinking about sort of how the future plays out. You know, think about some of the companies that we've put forth this Supercloud, and by the way, this has been a criticism of the concept. Charles Fitzer, "Everything is Supercloud!" Which if true would defeat the purpose of course. >> Right. >> And so right with the community effort, we really tried to put some guardrails down on the essential characteristics, the deployment models, you know, so for example, running across multiple clouds with a purpose build pass, creating a common experience, metadata intelligence that solves a specific problem. I mean, the example I often use is Snowflake's governed data sharing. But yeah, Snowflake, Databricks, CloudFlare, Cohesity, you know, I just mentioned Oracle and Azure, these and others, they certainly claim to have that common experience across clouds. But my question is, again, I come back to, do customers need this capability? You know, is Mono Cloud the way to solve that problem? What's your, what are your thoughts on how this plays out in the future of, I guess, PAs, apps and cloud? >> Yeah, I think a couple of things. So, from a technology perspective, I think, you know, the companies you name, the services you've named, have sort of proven that the concept is viable and it's viable at a reasonable size, right? These aren't completely niche businesses, right? They're multi-billion dollar businesses. So, I think there's a subset of applications that, you know, maybe a a bigger than a niche set of applications that are going to use these types of things. A lot of what you talked about is very data centric, and that's, that's fine. That's that layer is, figuring that out. I think we'll see messaging types of services, so like Derek Hallison's, Caya Company runs a, sort of a Supercloud for messaging applications. So I think there'll be places where it makes a ton of sense. I think, the thing that I'm not sure about, and because again, we've been now 10 plus years of sort of super low, you know, interest rates in terms of being able to do things, is a lot of these things come out of research that have been done previously. Then they get turned into maybe somewhat of an open source project, and then they can become something. You know, will we see as much investment into the next Snowflake if, you know, the interest rates are three or four times that they used to be, do we, do we see VCs doing it? So that's the part that worries me a little bit, is I think we've seen what's possible. I think, you know, we've seen companies like what those services are. I think I read yesterday Snowflake was saying like, their biggest customers are growing at 30, like 50 or 60%. Like the, value they get out of it is becoming exponential. And it's just a matter of like, will the economics allow the next big thing to happen? Because some of these things are pretty, pretty costly, you know, expensive to get started. So I'm bullish on the idea. I don't know that it becomes, I think it's okay that it's still sort of, you know, niche plus, plus in terms of the size of it. Because, you know, if we think about all of IT it's still, you know, even microservices is a small part of bigger things. But I'm still really bullish on the idea. I like that it's been proven. I'm a little wary, like a lot of people have the economics of, you know, what might slow things down a little bit. But yeah, I, think the future is going to involve Supercloud somewhere, whatever people end up calling it. And you and I discussed that. (laughs) But I don't, I don't think it goes away. I don't think it's, I don't think it's a fad. I think it is something that people see tremendous value and it's just, it's got to be, you know, for what you're trying to do, your application specific thing. >> You're making a great point on the funding of innovation and we're entering a new era of public policy as well. R and D tax credit is now is shifting. >> Yeah. >> You know, you're going to have to capitalize that over five years now. And that's something that goes back to the 1950s and many people would argue that's at least in part what has helped the United States be so, you know, competitive in tech. But Brian, always great to talk to you. Thanks so much for participating in the program. Great to see you. >> Thanks Dave, appreciate it. Good luck with the rest of the show. >> Thank you. All right, this is Dave Vellante for John Furrier, the entire Cube community. Stay tuned for more content from Supercloud2.

>> From around the globe, it's theCUBE, with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2021 Virtual. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Hello, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon 2021 CloudNativeCon Europe Virtual, I'm John Furrier your host, preview with Brian Gracely from Red Hat Senior Director Product Strategy Cloud Business Unit Brian Gracely great to see you. Former CUBE host CUBE alumni, big time strategist at Red Hat, great to see you, always great. And also the founder of Cloudcast which is an amazing podcast on cloud, part of the cloud (indistinct), great to see you Brian. Hope's all well. >> Great to see you too, you know for years, theCUBE was always sort of the ESPN of tech, I feel like, you know ESPN has become nothing but highlights. This is where all the good conversation is. It's theCUBE has become sort of the the clubhouse of tech, if you will. I know that's that's an area you're focused on, so yeah I'm excited to be back on and good to talk to you. >> It's funny you know, with all the events going away loved going out extracting the signal from the noise, you know, game day kind of vibe. CUBE Virtual has really expanded, so it's been so much more fun because we can get more people easy to dial in. So we're going to keep that feature post COVID. You're going to hear more about theCUBE Virtual hybrid events are going to be a big part of it, which is great because as you know and we've talked about communities and ecosystems are huge advantage right now it's been a big part of the Red Hat story. Now part of IBM bringing that mojo to the table the role of ecosystems with hybrid cloud is so critical. Can you share your thoughts on this? Because I know you study it, you have podcasts you've had one for many years, you understand that democratization and this new direct to audience kind of concept. Share your thoughts on this new ecosystem. >> Yeah, I think so, you know, we're sort of putting this in the context of what we all sort of familiarly call KubeCon but you know, if we think about it, it started as KubeCon it was sort of about this one technology but it's always been CloudNativeCon and we've sort of downplayed the cloud native part of it. But even if we think about it now, you know Kubernetes to a certain extent has kind of, you know there's this feeling around the community that, that piece of the puzzle is kind of boring. You know, it's 21 releases in, and there's lots of different offerings that you can get access to. There's still, you know, a lot of innovation but the rest of the ecosystem has just exploded. So it's, you know, there are ecosystem partners and companies that are working on edge and miniaturization. You know, we're seeing things like Kubernetes now getting into outer space and it's in the space station. We're seeing, you know, Linux get on Mars. But we're also seeing, you know, stuff on the other side of the spectrum. We're sort of seeing, you know awesome people doing database work and streaming and AI and ML on top of Kubernetes. So, you know, the ecosystem is doing what you'd expect it to do once one part of it gets stable. The innovation sort of builds on top of it. And, you know, even though we're virtual, we're still seeing just tons and tons of contributions, different companies different people stepping up and leading. So it's been really cool to watch the last few years. >> Yes, interesting point about the CloudNativeCon. That's an interesting insight, and I totally agree with you. And I think it's worth double clicking on. Let me just ask you, because when you look at like, say Kubernetes, okay, it's enabled a lot. Okay, it's been called the dial tone of Cloud native. I think Pat Gelsinger of VMware used that term. We call it the kind of the interoperability layer it enables more large scale deployments. So you're seeing a lot more Kubernetes enablement on clusters. Which is causing more hybrid cloud which means more Cloud native. So it actually is creating a network effect in and of itself with more Cloud native components and it's changing the development cycle. So the question I want to ask you is one how does a customer deal with that? Because people are saying, I like hybrid. I agree, Multicloud is coming around the corner. And of course, Multicloud is just a subsystem of resource underneath hybrid. How do I connect it all? Now I have multiple vendors, I have multiple clusters. I'm cross-cloud, I'm connecting multiple clouds multiple services, Kubernetes clusters, some get stood up some gets to down, it's very dynamic. >> Yeah, it's very dynamic. It's actually, you know, just coincidentally, you know, our lead architect, a guy named Clayton Coleman, who was one of the Kubernetes founders, is going to give a talk on sort of Kubernetes is this hybrid control plane. So we're already starting to see the tentacles come out of it. So you know how we do cross cloud networking how we do cross cloud provisioning of services. So like, how do I go discover what's in other clouds? You know and I think like you said, it took people a few years to figure out, like how do I use this new thing, this Kubernetes thing. How do I harness it. And, but the demand has since become "I have to do multi-cloud." And that means, you know, hey our company acquires companies, so you know, we don't necessarily know where that next company we acquire is going to run. Are they going to run on AWS? Are they going to, you know, run on Azure I've got to be able to run in multiple places. You know, we're seeing banking industries say, "hey, look cloud's now a viable target for you to put your applications, but you have to treat multiple clouds as if they're your backup domains." And so we're, you know, we're seeing both, you know the way business operates whether it's acquisitions or new things driving it. We're seeing regulations driving hybrid and multi-cloud and, even you know, even if the stalwart were to you know, set for a long time, well the world's only going to be public cloud and sort of you know, legacy data centers even those folks are now coming around to "I've got to bring hybrid to, to these places." So it's been more than just technology. It's been, you know, industries pushing it regulations pushing it, a lot of stuff. So, but like I said, we're going to be talking about kind of our future, our vision on that, our future on that. And, you know Red Hat everything we end up doing is a community activity. So we expect a lot of people will get on board with it >> You know, for all the old timers out there they can relate to this. But I remember in the 80's the OSI Open Systems Interconnect, and I was chatting with Paul Cormier about this because we were kind of grew up through that generation. That disrupted network protocols that were proprietary and that opened the door for massive, massive growth massive innovation around just getting that interoperability with TCP/IP, and then everything else happened. So Kubernetes does that, that's a phenomenal impact. So Cloud native to me is at that stage where it's totally next-gen and it's happening really fast. And a lot of people getting caught off guard, Brian. So you know, I got to to ask you as a product strategist, what's your, how would you give them the navigation of where that North star is? If I'm a customer, okay, I got to figure out where I got to navigate now. I know it's super volatile, changing super fast. What's your advice? >> I think it's a couple of pieces, you know we're seeing more and more that, you know, the technology decisions don't get driven out of sort of central IT as much anymore right? We sort of talk all the time that every business opportunity, every business project has a technology component to it. And I think what we're seeing is the companies that tend to be successful with it have built up the muscle, built up the skill set to say, okay, when this line of business says, I need to do something new and innovative I've got the capabilities to sort of stand behind that. They're not out trying to learn it new they're not chasing it. So that's a big piece of it, is letting the business drive your technology decisions as opposed to what happened for a long time which was we built out technology, we hope they would come. You know, the other piece of it is I think because we're seeing so much push from different directions. So we're seeing, you know people put technology out at the edge. We're able to do some, you know unique scalable things, you know in the cloud and so forth That, you know more and more companies are having to say, "hey, look, I'm not, I'm not in the pharmaceutical business. I'm not in the automotive business, I'm in software." And so, you know the companies that realize that faster, and then, you know once they sort of come to those realizations they realize, that's my new normal, those are the ones that are investing in software skills. And they're not afraid to say, look, you know even if my existing staff is, you know, 30 years of sort of history, I'm not afraid to bring in some folks that that'll break a few eggs and, you know, and use them as a lighthouse within their organization to retrain and sort of reset, you know, what's possible. So it's the business doesn't move. That's the the thing that drives all of them. And it's, if you embrace it, we see a lot of success. It's the ones that, that push back on it really hard. And, you know the market tends to sort of push back on them as well. >> Well we're previewing KubeCon CloudNativeCon. We'll amplify that it's CloudNativeCon as well. You guys bought StackRox, okay, so interesting company, not an open source company they have soon to be, I'm assuring, but Advanced Cluster Security, ACS, as it's known it's really been a key part of Red Hat. Can you give us the strategy behind that deal? What does that product, how does it fit in that's a lot of people are really talking about this acquisition. >> Yeah so here's the way we looked at it, is we've learned a couple of things over the last say five years that we've been really head down in Kubernetes, right? One is, we've always embedded a lot of security capabilities in the platform. So OpenShift being our core Kubernetes platform. And then what's happened over time is customers have said to us, "that's great, you've made the platform very secure" but the reality is, you know, our software supply chain. So the way that we build applications that, you know we need to secure that better. We need to deal with these more dynamic environments. And then once the applications are deployed they interact with various types of networks. I need to better secure those environments too. So we realized that we needed to expand our functionality beyond the core platform of OpenShift. And then the second thing that we've learned over the last number of years is to be successful in this space, it's really hard to take technology that wasn't designed for containers, or it wasn't designed for Kubernetes and kind of retrofit it back into that. And so when we were looking at potential acquisition targets, we really narrowed down to companies whose fundamental technologies were you know, Kubernetes-centric, you know having had to modify something to get to Kubernetes, and StackRox was really the leader in that space. They really, you know have been the leader in enterprise Kubernetes security. And the great thing about them was, you know not only did they have this Kubernetes expertise but on top of that, probably half of their customers were already OpenShift customers. And about 3/4 of their customers were using you know, native Kubernetes services and other clouds. So, you know, when we went and talked to them and said, "Hey we believe in Kubernetes, we believe in multi-cloud. We believe in open source," they said, "yeah, those are all the foundational things for us." And to your point about it, you know, maybe not being an open source company, they actually had a number of sort of ancillary projects that were open source. So they weren't unfamiliar to it. And then now that the acquisition's closed, we will do what we do with every piece of Red Hat technology. We'll make sure that within a reasonable period of time that it's made open source. And so you know, it's good for the community. It allows them to keep focusing on their innovation. >> Yeah you've got to get that code out there cool. Brian, I'm hearing about Platform Plus what is that about? Take us through that. >> Yeah, so you know, one of the things that our customers, you know, have come to us over time is it's you know, it's like, I've been saying kind of throughout this discussion, right? Kubernetes is foundational, but it's become pretty stable. The things that people are solving for now are like, you highlighted lots and lots of clusters, they're all over the place. That was something that our advanced cluster management capabilities were able to solve for people. Once you start getting into lots of places you've got to be able to secure things everywhere you go. And so OpenShift for us really allows us to bundle together, you know, sort of the complete set of the portfolio. So the platform, security management, and it also gives us the foundational pieces or it allows our customers to buy the foundational pieces that are going to help them do multi and hybrid cloud. And, you know, when we bundle that we can save them probably 25% in terms of sort of product acquisition. And then obviously the integration work we do you know, saves a ton on the operational side. So it's a new way for us to, to not only bundle the platform and the technologies but it gets customers in a mindset that says, "hey we've moved past sort of single environments to hybrid and multi-cloud environments. >> Awesome, well thanks for the update on that, appreciate it. One of the things going into KubeCon, and that we're watching closely is this Cloud native developer action. Certainly end users want to get that in a separate section with you but the end user contribution, which is like exploding. But on the developer side there's a real trend towards adding stronger consistency programmability support for more use cases okay. Where it's becoming more of a data platform as a requirement. >> Brian: Right. >> So how, so that's a trend so I'm kind of thinking, there's no disagreement on that. >> Brian: No, absolutely. >> What does that mean? Like I'm a customer, that sounds good. How do I make that happen? 'Cause that's the critical discussion right now in the DevOps, DevSecOps day, two operations. What you want to call it. This is the number one concern for developers and that solution architect, consistency, programmability more use cases with data as a platform. >> Yeah, I think, you know the way I kind of frame this up was you know, for any for any organization, the last thing you want to to do is sort of keep investing in lots of platforms, right? So platforms are great on their surface but once you're having to manage five and six and, you know 10 or however many you're managing, the economies of scale go away. And so what's been really interesting to watch with Kubernetes is, you know when we first got started everything was Cloud native application but that really was sort of, you know shorthand for stateless applications. We quickly saw a move to, you know, people that said, "Hey I can modernize something, you know, a Stateful application and we add that into Kubernetes, right? The community added the ability to do Stateful applications and that got people a certain amount of the way. And they sort of started saying, okay maybe Kubernetes can help me peel off some things of an existing platform. So I can peel off, you know Java workloads or I can peel off, what's been this explosion is the data community, if you will. So, you know, the TensorFlows the PItorches, you know, the Apache community with things like Couchbase and Kafka, TensorFlow, all these things that, you know maybe in the past didn't necessarily, had their own sort of underlying system are now defaulting to Kubernetes. And what we see because of that is, you know people now can say, okay, these data workloads these AI and ML workloads are so important to my business, right? Like I can directly point to cost savings. I can point to, you know, driving innovation and because Kubernetes is now their default sort of way of running, you know we're seeing just sort of what used to be, you know small islands of clusters become these enormous footprints whether they're in the cloud or in their data center. And that's almost become, you know, the most prevalent most widely used use case. And again, it makes total sense. It's exactly the trends that we've seen in our industry, even before Kubernetes. And now people are saying, okay, I can consolidate a lot of stuff on Kubernetes. I can get away from all those silos. So, you know, that's been a huge thing over the last probably year plus. And the cool thing is we've also seen, you know the hardware vendors. So whether it's Intel or Nvidia, especially around GPUs, really getting on board and trying to make that simpler. So it's not just the software ecosystem. It's also the hardware ecosystem, really getting on board. >> Awesome, Brian let me get your thoughts on the cloud versus the power dynamics between the cloud players and the open source software vendors. So what's the Red Hat relationship with the cloud players with the hybrid architecture, 'cause you want to set up the modern day developer environment, we get that right. And it's hybrid, what's the relationship with the cloud players? >> You know, I think so we we've always had two philosophies that haven't really changed. One is, we believe in open source and open licensing. So you haven't seen us look at the cloud as, a competitive threat, right? We didn't want to make our business, and the way we compete in business, you know change our philosophy in software. So we've always sort of maintained open licenses permissive licenses, but the second piece is you know, we've looked at the cloud providers as very much partners. And mostly because our customers look at them as partners. So, you know, if Delta Airlines or Deutsche Bank or somebody says, "hey that cloud provider is going to be our partner and we want you to be part of that journey, we need to be partners with that cloud as well." And you've seen that sort of manifest itself in terms of, you know, we haven't gone and set up new SaaS offerings that are Red Hat offerings. We've actually taken a different approach than a lot of the open source companies. And we've said we're going to embed our capabilities, especially, you know OpenShift into AWS, into Azure into IBM cloud working with Google cloud. So we'd look at them very much as a partner. I think it aligns to how Red Hat's done things in the past. And you know, we think, you know even though it maybe easy to sort of see a way of monetizing things you know, changing licensing, we've always found that, you've got to allow the ecosystem to compete. You've got to allow customers to go where they want to go. And we try and be there in the most consumable way possible. So that's worked out really well for us. >> So I got to bring up the end user participation component. That's a big theme here at KubeCon going into it and around the event is, and we've seen this trend happen. I mean, Envoy, Lyft the laying examples are out there. But they're more end-use enterprises coming in. So the enterprise class I call classic enterprise end user participation is at an all time high in opensource. You guys have the biggest portfolio of enterprises in the business. What's the trend that you're seeing because it used to be limited to the hyperscalers the Lyfts and the Facebooks and the big guys. Now you have, you know enterprises coming in the business model is working, can you just share your thoughts on CloudNativeCons participation for end users? >> Yeah, I think we're definitely seeing a blurring of lines between what used to be the Silicon Valley companies were the ones that would create innovation. So like you mentioned Lyft, or, you know LinkedIn doing Kafka or Twitter doing you know, whatever. But as we've seen more and more especially enterprises look at themselves as software companies right. So, you know if you talk about, you know, Ford or Volkswagen they think of themselves as a software company, almost more than they think about themselves as a car company, right. They're a sort of mobile transportation company you know, something like that. And so they look at themselves as I've got to I've got to have software as an expertise. I've got to compete for the best talent, no matter where that talent is, right? So it doesn't have to be in Detroit or in Germany or wherever I can go get that anywhere. And I think what they really, they look for us to do is you know, they've got great technology chops but they don't always understand kind of the the nuances and the dynamics of open-source right. They're used to having their own proprietary internal stuff. And so a lot of times they'll come to us, not you know, "Hey how do we work with the project?" But you know like here's new technology. But they'll come to us and they'll say "how do we be good, good stewards in this community? How do we make sure that we can set up our own internal open source office and have that group, work with communities?" And so the dynamics have really changed. I think a lot of them have, you know they've looked at Silicon Valley for years and now they're modeling it, but it's, you know, for us it's great because now we're talking the same language, you know we're able to share sort of experiences we're able to share best practices. So it is really, really interesting in terms of, you know, how far that whole sort of software is eating the world thing is materialized in sort of every industry. >> Yeah and it's the workloads of expanding Cloud native everywhere edge is blowing up big time. Brian, final question for you before we break. >> You bet. >> Thanks for coming on and always great to chat with you. It's always riffing and getting the data out too. What's your expectation for KubeCon CloudNativeCon this year? What are you expecting to see? What highlights do you expect will come out of CloudNativeCon KubeCon this year? >> Yeah, I think, you know like I said, I think it's going to be much more on the Cloud native side, you know we're seeing a ton of new communities come out. I think that's going to be the big headline is the number of new communities that are, you know have sort of built up a following. So whether it's Crossplane or whether it's, you know get-ops or whether it's, you know expanding around the work that's going on in operators we're going to see a whole bunch of projects around, you know, developer sort of frameworks and developer experience and so forth. So I think the big thing we're going to see is sort of this next stage of, you know a thousand flowers are blooming and we're going to see probably a half dozen or so new communities come out of this one really strong and you know the trends around those are going to accelerate. So I think that'll probably be the biggest takeaway. And then I think just the fact that the community is going to come out stronger after the pandemic than maybe it did before, because we're learning you know, new ways to work remotely, and that, that brings in a ton of new companies and contributors. So I think those two big things will be the headlines. And, you know, the state of the community is strong as they, as they like to say >> Yeah, love the ecosystem, I think the values are going to be network effect, ecosystems, integration standards evolving very quickly out in the open. Great to see Brian Gracely Senior Director Product Strategy at Red Hat for the cloud business unit, also podcasts are over a million episode downloads for the cloud cast podcast, thecloudcast.net. What's it Brian, what's the stats now. >> Yeah, I think we've, we've done over 500 shows. We're you know, about a million and a half listeners a year. So it's, you know again, it's great to have community followings and, you know, and meet people from around the world. So, you know, so many of these things intersect it's a real pleasure to work with everybody >> You're going to create a culture, well done. We're all been there, done that great job. >> Thank you >> Check out the cloud cast, of course, Red Hat's got the great OpenShift mojo going on into KubeCon. Brian, thanks for coming on. >> Thanks John. >> Okay so CUBE coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon Europe 2021 Virtual, I'm John Furrier with theCUBE virtual. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas. It's theCUBE. Covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker, and support from its ecosystem partners. (bright electronic music) >> Welcome to SiliconANGLE Media's coverage of DockerCon 2017. This is theCUBE. I'm Stu Miniman. My cohost for the next two days is Jim Kobielus, and happy to have as our first guest on the program, is Brian Gracely. A year ago, actually, Brian had a beard, and he was one of the hosts on theCUBE. He's now with Red Hat. Brian, welcome back to the program. >> Stu, great to be on this side of the table again. Good to see you guys. >> And Brian, you were at the first CUBE event back in 2010. We've had you on at least once or twice every year. You did a few more when you were on our team, but happy to have you back as a guest. Why don't you bring our audience up to speed? What brought you to Red Hat and what's your role there, and what brings you to DockerCon? >> Yeah, so, been at Red Hat about a year, a little less than a year now, worked on the OpenShift team, so focused on Kubernetes containers, integrated Linux. It was a great opportunity to be in open source, which I've been working on for a year. It was at home, it was in Raleigh, and it's a great team. It's a team that's growing. The Kubernetes space is growing, so, the vendor side of the world drew me back into Red Hat, so it's been good. >> Yeah, open source, big component about what we're talking here at this show. I heard open source mentioned a ton. It was developers, it was contributors. What's your take, did you get a chance to see some of the keynote? Solomon got out there, thanked the 3300-plus contributor. When he put up the name of the companies, I think it was 41% of the contributors for all of this are independent, but then, Red Hat's in the top six companies there. What's your take on that and the ecosystem in general? >> Yeah, I thought it was, I thought the keynote was good. Obviously, the show's doing well, so it's great to see the container space doing really well. We've been part of the Docker ecosystem since sort of day one. We like to say that we're probably the biggest distributor of what used to be Docker is now Moby, within Rail. But yeah, I think we see that, we obviously believe in the open source movement. We're seeing more and more customers, our customers who want to contribute, who want to make it the de facto buying decision as to what they use, so, yeah, it's great to see not only huge open source support, but then seeing it become, to blossom into very viable, commercial offerings around the market. >> Yeah, so, Brian, your team actually wrote a blog leading up to the show that says, "Containers or Linux." After listening to the keynote, with LinuxKit announced, it felt like, oh well, Linux is containers. It seems like, reminds me back, Sun is, the network is the computer, the computer is the network. It's all kind of looking at it. What's your take as to kind of the relationship of containers with Linux, of course Windows fits in the mix, too, but the operating system and the containers. >> Well, I think, the reason we really put that out was if you go back a little bit historically, not to bore people, containers aren't a Docker thing. Containers are a Linux thing. They were created by Google, Red Hat made a huge contribution sort of secondarily around namespaces, Google did cgroups, IBM did LXC, so it's been a core Linux feature for over a decade now. Docker did a great job of making it easier to use, but at the end of the day, even if you look at, like, what LinuxKit and some of these other things are, they're not about sort of Linux versus Windows, it's, they are all Linux, and it's how do I represent Linux in ways of doing that? So we really kind of want to just reinforce this idea that there are things that you expect out of your operating system, containers being one of them, but if you look at every other project that's being built around this space, whether it's Kubernetes, whether it's management tools that are be, they're all being built on Linux. That's the foundation of this, and it's kind of just a reinforcement to people that, remember where your tools come from, what that thing is that drives security for you, things in that space. >> Brian, you wrote a lot about kind of cloud-native and that journey kind of, rewriting applications, containers, for the fits into that a lot. What have you seen changing kind of last 12 to 18 months? Couple of shows I've been to lately, it feels like we're talking about lift-and-shift more than we are about building new applications. What's the application space look like, and I know Jim's going to want to jump in here. He covers the cloud-native stuff. >> So I think there's a couple of big things that, and I wrote about it for a while, and it's, how much has changed in the last two years have been really interesting. So, I think originally, when you went and looked at platforms, whether it was OpenShift or Cloud Foundry or Heroku or whatever, lots of sort of what we used to call opinionated systems. You dictated what developers did, right? And then, we had-- >> Jim: Opinionated systems? >> Very opinionated platforms, right? The opinion of us, the creators, was going to get forced on you, the developer, right? >> Stu: It made a lot of the decisions for you, so. (Jim laughs) >> And again, the idea was make it easier for you. You don't have to think about those things, but you're going to get them in the way that we want them, and what ended up happening was Docker would kind of became a standard way, a standard container format. We ended up having these open source schedulers like Mesos and Kubernetes and other things, and that allowed the platforms to be a little more, what I was calling composable, so, because developers may not want to use the languages that you force on them, they may not want to use them in those ways. So I think what we've seen is this sort of blurring between what used to be heavily opinionated to becoming more composable, modular, and there's always this trade-off between how much do developers want to care, how much do they not? So that's one big trend that we've seen, is this start of back and forth of what that is. The other one we saw was-- >> In terms of compatibility, (mumbles) quickly, do you see any trend in this space, containers, toward visual composition of applications? What I'm seeing in today, and I've seen generally in this space, is mostly coding, command line interfaces, any visual composition tools you guys provide or any partners of yours for-- >> Brian: Yeah, there's-- >> For building containerized applications? >> And so I think there's sort of two pieces there. It's a great question because ultimately, if the coding piece is hard, you only reach a small segment of those developers, right? You want to, it's like when websites came out, they were all hand-coded in HTML and stuff, and then you had things like Dreamweaver and these other visual tools, and then it exploded. We've seen that. To be successful in this, you've got to have tools in the desktop that make it easier for the developers. Red Hat does something that we call the Container Developer Kit, which is really, write your application, a lot of the stuff in the background gets hidden. Docker has Docker for Mac and Docker for Windows. We see some other tools. So that piece is important. The other piece that, to come back to your question about it, is it lift-and-shift? We probably see 75, 80% of the customers we work with who say, "Look, I know I've got to do cloud-native. "I've got digital transformation "and all these sort of things, "but I've got a lot of portfolio "that I'd like to modernize. "Can I do that with containers?" And I think what we've seen is, for the early days, it was containers are only for new. They only work for microservices, they're only for new, and what we're seeing, and this again goes back to the sort of, containers are Linux, is customers say, "I have an application that ran perfectly fine in Linux. "Why wouldn't it run really well in there?" And we've got customers nowadays, and this sort of blows people's minds, like, we've got customers who will pick up things like WebSphere, put them into a container, run them, modernize them somewhat, but, because the platform will give them automation, it gives them high availability, it gives them scalability, and they go, it works, and they get cost-effectiveness. So we're seeing a lot of that because you can address a lot of your portfolio. >> Oh, Brian, it's the typical maturation that we've seen. The use cases that put on stage, keep planes in the air, power the largest infrastructure, monitor fire alarms, websites, it's like, oh, this is same thing we saw in virtualization in every kind of way that's like, oh, containers run applications. (chuckles) >> Right. >> Right? >> Jim: Have you seen a big push by your customers or in the ecosystem to containerize more of the deep learning and artificial intelligence toolkits, like TensorFlow or Theano? Is that, with your customers, is that a big priority rate now or going forward? >> Yeah, so, I think the big data space was always an area that was kind of on the fence if it made sense to, in container, do you need an abstraction layer, do you want to be closer to it? We're starting to see more and more, so for example, Google with TensorFlow. Google, huge proponent of containers and Kubernetes. They're doing a lot of work to make that happen. We've been doing a lot of work with the Spark community to make Spark work really well in containers, and it becomes an issue of can you manage the resources? The container schedulers do that great, and then, can you manage getting access to the data, and we're seeing more and more storage become container-native and people understanding how that works, so yeah, the breadth of what you can do around containers has gotten very, very large. >> Yeah, any difference in how your customers look at it, whether they're doing on-premises or public cloud, or do things like Docker and Kubernetes make that not matter as much? >> I think what they, so, I joke all the time, none of our customers have a container problem. None of them have a, none of them wake up in the morning and say, "That's my problem," right? What they're saying more and more is, "I know I want to, I'd like to start getting away "from maybe owning data centers, "or by destiny, being data centers. "I need to leverage public clouds, multiple, plural," and they're sort of saying, "Look, I get the benefit of what they do, "but there's still operational differences, "what Azure does, what AWS does. "I would like some level of consistency," and so that's where the OpenShift conversation really comes into play. The operational model I can build with OpenShift as a platform is the same thing I can run on top of Azure, on top of AWS, on top of Google, and we're seeing more and more of our deals, our customers who say, "That's what it's going to look like. "Help us make that work," and today, they do it on a basic level. Somebody like Volvo, for example, some in their data center, some in AWS, and then, more and more, they go, "Go contribute upstream in Kubernetes, "and federate this stuff." Make it look more consistent, make it look more operationally consistent, and that's coming in the next version of Kubernetes, and so forth, so, that shift is happening, but what they want is sort of this consistency. The Kubernetes part, the Docker part, they're sort of details under the covers, but it does provide them a level of portability that's really important. >> All right, Brian, want to give you the final word. Red Hat has got Red Hat Summit coming up, OpenStack and Jim Whitehurst is going to be given, I think, the day one keynote there. Talk a little bit of Red Hat's presence here at the show, what we can expect to see in this space from Red Hat throughout the year. >> Yeah, so I think, from us here, and what you'll see at Red Hat Summit, like, containers are front and center. Obviously, it's an extension of Linux, but it's, we're becoming a company that's more about how to do applications faster, how to modernize applications, how to do them across multiple clouds, and it's this whole idea that those things that used to be really hard, you do them in software now, and the community is helping to fix those, so big presence here. Again, we've got a ton of customers who use Docker as a packaging format, run their containers, open, at Red Hat Summit, we're going to have 25-plus production OpenShift customers that you want to talk about running governments, running airplanes, running, like, they're going to talk about that stuff, so that part, we're really excited about. It's fun, it's fun at this point. They don't, our customers don't want to talk about containers. They want to talk about this digital transformation stuff, and that is making the technology industry fun again. >> All right, so that was my last question for Brian Gracely with Red Hat. My last question for Brian Gracely of the Cloudcast is, I haven't heard Serverless mentioned yet this week. What's wrong? >> I know, that's a good, it's a good question. The Serverless stuff's taking off two weeks from now, probably, at the same, no, down the street. Serverlessconf is happening. >> Stu: Is that part of OSCON then, or? >> No, it's its own event now. >> It's own event. >> Serverless complement to their own event. They'll probably get five, 600 people. We're seeing it as another way of looking at applications. It's functions, containerize them, write your own code, and you'll see us, you'll see what we're doing around OpenShift begin to incorporate that, sort of functions as a server, Serverless stuff, very, very soon, and around Boston timeframe. >> All right, well, Brian, always great to talk to you, and glad I can bring it to the audience, so Brian Gracely with Red Hat. We'll be back with lots more coverage here, DockerCon 2017. You're watching theCUBE. 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from Seattle Washington extracting the signal from the noise it's the cube on the ground at OpenStack days Seattle 2015 now here's your host John furrier hello and welcome to Seattle this is a special Q presentation cube on the ground OTG we call it on the ground we go out to the event and talk to all the thought leader I'm John far with the QNX arendelle with SolidFire also the famous cloudcast podcast great to see you again I know good to see John cloudcast is a hot podcast all the thought leaders are listening customers are listening guys are really the signal out there on cloud and also SolidFire growing yes all flash storage you gotta kick in some but they're always keeping tabs on you guys new approach the cloud what's going on with cloud give us the update of OpenStack what's the bottom line I mean is it failing is it winning is it growing is it stalled what do we expect to see ya know so it's at an interesting point because it absolutely is growing but it still has some operational challenges that's the number one thing we're seeing right now is actually just talking to some folks in the hall of common theme is you're still trying to figure how to upgrade it easily still figuring how to operate it easily right and the gentleman from canonical made that made the the reference you know ketchup right everyone has the in green stuff in your kitchen but no one makes their ketchup right and I thought that was fantastic because it's you know everyone's kind of looking for that easy button and it's starting to show up you know you've got you the blue box folks you've got the platform nine folks you've got some interesting startups actually coming into the OpenStack space which shows us there is some definitely some innovation and some new things going on but it's because of the challenges we faced until now the question is the ketchup good I mean is that last ingredient going to make it so that it's not too watery I mean is Cooper Nettie's is containers so truly is it good ketchup and yeah what's the next was the key ingredient well yeah and that's that's a fantastic point because we are at this inflection point where OpenStack was a necessary next that without a doubt we had to get that first step into cloud native applications had to do it but where we're going with Mesa sand cabrion at ease with mesa con going on down the street is that the true next evolution is it like the OpenStack Murano project where you're kind of getting containers built into OpenStack we'll have to wait and see because that anytime you talk to burn a DS anytime you talk Mesa that's is so cutting edge so at this point I'm still Silicon Valley home so OpenStack obviously meme of a sec being dead is kind of falls we saw some things happen last year so it opens dec sv some people aren't going to be there this year that were there last year yes either went out of business or executives have left but yet a lot of dynamics going on palma risks is stepping down as CEO of cloud pivotal cloud foundry cleans 100 million dollars in revenue leather to see those books but but the question now see amazon is doing their thing and but it's really a dynamic market right now so so it's there yes the question is who's doing what in revenue what's the numbers is it all professional surgery and cloud found your hundred million that's a huge number i just is that all professional services do they actually selling product yeah and that's a fantastic moment because the m the cloud cast we saw this consolidation coming for a long time we really started covering OpenStack about four years ago and we were just waiting for at some point you know when we first started there was 15 plus startups in the OpenStack space and there just wasn't enough customers there there wasn't enough revenue there and you just saw this natural consolidation come to a head last year and yeah some are no longer here a lot of them were sucked up into the various vendors and what you're seeing now is especially at the OpenStack summits and like these events here you have a much more mature ecosystem it's almost like the new legacy of you know all of these vendors are there they're all mature they're trying to play in this space they're trying to make money off of it and time will tell and then it's an evolution anybody brought to point you right over the easy button what is that easy button now is it just deployment in a box is it like just give me prefabricated OpenStack is it tooling is it management we're hearing a lot of different things yeah and I think time will tell but I do think the preference we're seeing in our customers is definitely moving towards that easy button as a service if you will of some of those companies where the operations have open stack because it hasn't gotten easier at the same level of the adoption people are looking to what is that next step if the operations were to get easier i don't think we'd see that market be as popular as it is right now is it is the market still in early adopter that's the thing that's on my mind has it crossed over yet I think it has I think we're at least in OpenStack context where we're beyond early adopter phase there is a lot of folks out there using it but what's interesting is is to kind of go back around to the previous question a little bit the district's taken off like I think they probably should have most of the large customers I've seen are still roll your own and it is still that staff of Engineers really keeping up and running and again because the what was the value-added the distributions we're starting to see the Red Hat distribution get a you know to that point where we're getting good adoption of that we're seeing the marantis one with all the fuel work they're doing we're getting good adoption with that so the question on adoption is it's either not Oh people aren't aware of it or the product sucks so is it mix of both is it awareness issue or is it a product issue oh that's a great question i think it's a it's a question of differentiation I don't know that it's differentiated enough at this point in time it's it's you know if you go build your own versus you farm it out if you will completely big differences right but it's almost like shades who could be fear yeah it could be a third dimension you could absolutely be fear well that's the thing you've been the issue solution of operators we hear a lot of an operator so the question is if I'm an engineering team I might want to have my tire kickers go through the motions and that's not necessary approval con so that's just core competency building so that fear could be an issue of cork opera so maybe they're aware of it maybe the products decent maybe it's just that their team's not core enough to do that yeah when it comes to the folks in house um yeah again going back to the easy button what we really need in the opposite community is that POC in a box and that's probably there today don't get me wrong but but everyone sees that POC in a box but then they're afraid of does that mean can I scale it out to 100 nodes a thousand nodes and will it be as easy and it's almost gotten a reputation now of know and and so how do we get it to grow to 100 notes thousand nodes whatever you want and do the business value out of I don't need a big staff of people and how do I get you know the underlying infrastructure to be simpler at the end of the day a little cloud cast we got going on here I mean I think in my opinion my opinion I think it's just a matter of the customers having the ability to execute and have the total cost of ownership equation nailed I think there's still this gray area of there's no straight and narrow on on the execution what's my cost i'm gonna be locked into that vendor what's going to be the lock-in oh my god yeah the shark fin the iceberg whatever metaphor you want to use yes no is that reading is their visibility on the ownership side because downstream what's the impact well it what's interesting there too is the biggest thing I'm seeing is for again from an operation standpoint how do we make this as simple as possible because what happens is you have this weird convoluted thing if you have the whole legacy apps versus cloud native apps and you take that put it aside for a second rank if we take that and put it aside well what what do they really want doesn't matter what kind of app it is well the developers want API driven infrastructure you can call it cloud but the end of the day it's it's an infrastructure that's driven by api's and then as simple as possible you know being able to really guarantee the uptime guarantee the performance and that's where OpenStack at times it gets a bad rap I don't and I'm not even necessarily agreeing with that might not even be worthy of a bad rap in that agreed absolutely because there are known customers out there that are doing it and doing it very well but again is how do you get beyond that room well Stu miniman I'm Wikibon and Brian Grace Lee and now Wikibon and and I Robin conversation about this and I think Dave vellante even chimed in and we were debating was up across the board different opinions yes what the hell is cloud native app mean you know is it is amazonas cloudy of course they're cloud Facebook a cloud native app okay but what does that mean for enterprises that mean that the app was built for just API so to me it just doesn't seen it's been a lot of there's not a lot of cloud native apps out there right now or are now what is a cloud yeah and and it's a fantastic question and my opinion have always been you know there's there was this kind of trend in the industry how do I take these legacy apps and make them cloud native well the simple answer is you don't the way I look at it is it's really more of like a star of the old build the new mentality you you want to maintain those legacy systems but the same time as those kind of age off the books if you will you're going to have to build a new infrastructure so if you're going to build new infrastructure you might as well build it the new way but that has to happen over time that is not something that happens you know most businesses out there today they don't do technology for the sake of technology there has to be a business reason and a business driver if that legacy app is still out there making them money they're going to keep using I not untrue to your point it's you cloud native is the future the soil asked of you know yeah yield some fruit on that tree if you will so that's going to take some time exactly so so you know I very much see this as a longer tail that most people would like without a doubt it is just a matter of how are we going to get their long-term and yeah there's lots of terminology and the cloud native and what does that mean big picture and architectural II that's all solved it's getting the businesses to rewrite the apps and really give them Aaron we're in Seattle right now on the ground so quickly describe to the folks out there what's the vibe here what's it like a Seattle it's been it is so it's been interesting I've been in here since tuesday now and i've done lenox con cloudstack day OpenStack day and mesa con all in the in three days now so it's what did you learn yeah it's been a world in 30-second I know yeah so it the biggest thing is there is still a lot of confusion in yes people are starting to get legacy versus cloud native but when it comes to which technologies do i use why would i use them what are the actual business drivers to actually go adopt some of these new technologies massive amounts of confusion around that and that's probably the biggest reason for you know trying to get knowledge out in the industry without a doubt okay we are OTG on the ground this is the cube in Seattle I'm John for thanks for watching and all the coverage here at OpenStack innovation day thanks for watching