(upbeat music) >> Welcome to this CUBE Conversation. This is part of the second season of the AWS startup showcase, season two, episode one. I'm Dave Nicholson, and I am joined with a very special guest, CEO and co-founder of Tidelift, Mr. Donald Fischer. Donald, welcome to the CUBE. >> Thanks David. Really glad to be here. >> So, first and foremost, tell us about Tidelift. >> Happy to, yeah, so, at Tidelift we're on a mission. Our mission is to make open source software work better for everyone, and when we say that, we mean, make it work better for all the organizations and governments and everybody that depends on open source software to build the applications that we all rely on. But also part of our mission, is making open source work better for the creators of open source. The independent open source maintainers, who are behind so many of those building blocks, technology building blocks that our commerce industry and society is comprised of these days. They've got a hard task to hold up all of that stuff and make sure that it meets, you know, professional grade standards and that we can all rely on it. And so, we want to do our part to help both sides of that equation. >> Fantastic, well, I want to double click on a few of the things that you said, but I think I want to format this by starting out with a little role play between the two of us, if you don't mind. I know you're CEO, but for the sake of this, you're going to be the CIO and I'm going to be the CEO, and we're going to play off some recent events here. So, hey Donald, come on in, sit down. Listen, I want to talk to you about this whole log shell, log for something, or another thing that's going on. So, let me get this straight. Our multinational Fortune 500 company is dependent upon software, that's free, and somehow we've been running this and the people who maintain it, do it for free, we don't pay for it, but somehow this has opened us up to a threat from people who can log into a system we're using to keep track of stuff, and then, what's going on? By the way, you're fired, but I want to know if, I want to know if you can stay on for the next 90 days to train your replacement, but, explain to me what's going on with this whole open-source nonsense? >> Yeah. Don't panic boss. Only about 70 or 80% of the software in our enterprise that is third-party open source software. So, there's definitely, like 20 or 30% that's not, and we're on top of it. Now, yeah, I think it's a, you know, you're right to say, we are completely dependent on this software, that's being created by these, you know, amazing folks on the internet. Boss, you told me that we had to have a global corporation here with modern digital customer experience. We're not going to be able to do it using Microsoft front page from 1997, and there's no other path to take than to build with modern building blocks. And today in, you know, the modern era, that means building on open source packages and technologies across a whole slew of language, ecosystems, like JavaScript and Java PHP, Ruby, Python, .NET, Rust, Go, we use all of it here, boss, and, we don't get to have a business unless we do. >> Okay, so, I didn't understand a word that you just said, but it was enough to convince me to let you keep your job. So, end-scene, we're not getting paid scale wages to do this, Donald, so I think we can go back to our normal personas. So, how does Tidelift play into all of this? I'd really want to hear about this concept of what an open source maintainer is, because these are largely volunteers, aren't they, in terms of the maintenance that they're doing? >> Yeah, so, I mean, open source, there's a lot of different models for open source software development. There certainly are a number of foundational open source projects, certainly at the infrastructure level, like operating systems, databases and things like that, that tend to be, you know, predominantly driven by vendors, software vendors, you know, like you can think of Red Hat, VMware organizations like that. But when you get up to the application development world, teams, building, you know, websites, web applications, mobile applications, most of the building blocks at that tier in these a programming language ecosystems, most of the software there is actually being created, that enterprise organizations use, is being created by individual, independent, open source maintainers, where it's not their day job, it's a side hustle for them. And it's a really interesting question, like, how did we get here? You know, why are these folks doing it? It sort of rhymes with the question I asked myself years ago, like, who's typing all this stuff into Wikipedia, and why? Like, it's amazing resource, I'm so glad it's there, but why are they doing this, right? And it turns out that there's a bunch of motivations there's some cynical motivations for the open source maintainers that people attribute that are practical too, you know, people say your GitHub repository is your resume in as a modern developer, things like that helps you get a reputation, you can use that to get a job. But, when we've talked to the maintainers of the most widely used open source packages, and by that, I mean, thousands of packages that every major organization that builds software relies on, the main reason why they do it is actually impact. We find we've actually done direct surveys of this audience and the reason why they spend their nights and weekends and carve out time, where they could be, you know, getting paid to do something else or going skiing or going to the beach, is it really feels good to have this activity that they put out into the world, and, you know, they know that folks use this stuff and rely on it, and there's a pride in their work and the impact that they're making. But the challenge with this model is that when it's only an impact and pride, and sort of a, you know, a good feeling driven effort, it means that maybe all of the things that organizations might want their standards that organizations might want their software to meet doesn't get done, right? Like it's one thing, if you've got a job as a software engineer, building corporate software, or even as a, you know, a maintainer at a corporate open source company, and you have a checklist of, you know, standard enterprise software development, commercial grade software development tasks that you need to be completing, if you're doing it as a side hustle for good reasons, like impact and, you know, releasing your creative juice, you might not get to some of the more boring aspects of commercial software engineering, like security engineering and some of the documentation and release engineering and, you know, making sure there's structured metadata around all the elements of it. And then that's the gap that we're really trying to fill at Tidelift, by connecting these two audiences. >> Yeah. How? How? You want to fill the gap, you want to connect the audiences, but, how do you do that? >> Yeah, perfect, so, we do it by paying the maintainers, paying the open source maintainers, actual dollars, or the currency of their preference, and what we're paying them for is not just to sort of hack on their projects, or hack on their projects more, we're asking them to help us ensure that the software that the organizations that we work with depend on meets certain specific concrete enterprise standards, and those standards fall into three categories, security, licensing, and maintenance. So, on the security front, you know, a baseline standard, there is making sure that we have known versions of the open source packages that are free of known defects, right? So there's like a catalog of known security defects that the industry uses called the National Vulnerability Database, you may have seen the terminology CVE referred to in passing, that's the identifier for these things. So, we work with the open-source maintainers to make sure that we've figured out, mapped out, which versions of software packages are impacted by known security vulnerabilities. And then we also look forward and make sure that we have a plan in place for what happens in the future when there are security vulnerabilities. So, you know, traditional commercial software, there's a security response team, who's kind of standing by 24/7, ready to respond, and then there's a defined protocol of what's going to happen, in terms of what's called responsible disclosure, telling the right folks in the right sequence, that there is a vulnerability causing there to be a patch version of the software available, communicating that through, you know, traditional commercial software vendors for, you know, years have been doing that internally, that doesn't exist by default for volunteer, you know, part-time open source, independent open source maintainers. So we fill that gap and we pre-wire that with them to make sure that that first track security is can be buttoned up. >> So, you're paying them, are you and your co-founders wealthy philanthropists that are just doing this, or what's the business model here? Now you're pulling these people who were doing it for free, they're happy, but how does that translate into a business model for Tidelift. >> Perfect, so, the work that they're doing, you know, I talked a little bit about security, we also do similar things on those other attributes, like licensing, making sure that the licenses are completely accurate, and we kind of know who wrote the software, et cetera, and then maintenance, is it being proactively cared for going forward? Is somebody still on the case with these projects? Now, the result of all of that work, is we create a vetted catalog of known good open source releases that we've vetted with the experts, often the individuals and teams that wrote the code in the first place, usually, we vet that it meets these enterprise standards. That's a really useful tool for organizations that are building with that. So, the way that we convey that to organizations that are building software in a useful way is we have a SAS service software, that as a service platform, that's what Tidelift is, and basically, the teams that use this stuff, they plug us into their software development process, typically alongside other tools that they might have, like CI/CD tools that are running tests on their application logic, they'll plug in Tidelift into their release process to ensure that those, the 70 or 80% of the software that they ship, that comes from GitHub, comes from the Python package index, or NPM, or the Maven Central Repository for Java, we're vetting that that meets their enterprise standards and ensuring that the ingredients, the building blocks that go into their applications are known good and vetted to these concrete standards. And they are, you know, this is an unsolved problem for almost every serious organization. There's a couple of, you know, over-performing organizations, like Google has done some amazing internal work on this, Amazon has an incredible dedicated team that does this internally for Amazon developers, very few other organizations, even some of the largest multinational companies have a dedicated internal function doing this comprehensively and systematically. Tidelift is that function that these organizations can use. They can work with us and our network, our unique network of hundreds of these independent open source maintainers, to ensure that there is a feed of known good vetted packages to go into their applications. >> So, were maintainers going in and auditing, and editing, and vetting software that was essentially created by others? That's one question, and then the other question that kind of goes along with that is, are you vetting a gold copy of something and saying, this software meets certain criteria, you should feel okay using it, that's one thing. Validating that the actual distribution, you know, the actual code that's being executed in their enterprise is secure and hasn't been tampered with is another thing. So where do you sit in that distribution channel or that supply chain? >> Sure, so, on the distribution front, you can think of us, we're sort of a GPS system that your application developers can use to know which versions of software are going to meet your enterprise standards. We don't create a separate world where we have our own, you know, side copy of the entire development ecosystem. It's not what these organizations want. They don't want to use some weird enterprise world set of open source packages, they want to just, you know, type NPM install have the, you know, software flow into their organization, but they also want it to not have no insecurity vulnerabilities in it, and they don't want to get bitten two weeks or two years later with a license violation, because there was kind of fuzzy, or incomplete data around the open source license. So what we do is, we help them consume the open source software, you know, knowing that it's been vetted to these standards. And then we also work with the open source community to cause the software to be changed to meet those standards, right? So back to the first part of your question, We work with a lot of projects with the prime maintainers, often the authors, as I said, and we've actually been extending our model over the years to work with these open source maintainers to cover not just their own project, but, some of those neighboring projects, right? Like the core projects that their project depends on, other projects that are co-used with them, they have a lot of expertise, and also, you know, relationships with the surrounding open source community there. So, they're working with us as curators, if you will, our ambassadors that help us get on the community and cover as much of the landscape as possible. >> And, so, what's the relationship with AWS? This is, you know, we're talking here as part of the AWS startup showcase season two, episode one, which is, that's actually pretty cool. So we need to, you know, the challenge here is, season one was awesome, much like Ted Lasso, season two, we have big shoes to fill here, Donald. So, what's the-- >> We got to up our game. >> (laughs) What's the relationship with AWS? And, I mean, why would they call you out as someone interesting for us to talk to? >> Yeah, so, we've had a great relationship that we've been investing in, and working on together with AWS. So, every one of AWS's customers faces this challenge around the software workloads that they're deploying on AWS. You know, it's just, you can't argue against the fact that the vast majority of the application software in the modern world is comprised majority of this third-party open source software. And so, it's really important whether it's running on a device, you know, an Edge device, or whether it's running in a Cloud data center, that those applications meet these standards, especially on the security front. So, AWS recognizes this need and opportunity for their customers, and so we've been working really well jointly with them. We're glad to say that we're an ISV, and AWS ISV accelerate partner now, which gives us the ability to co-engage with AWS and work together to solve mutual customers challenges, and we've had a great time working with the AWS team to help scale up our efforts to get the word word out around this important area, and then more importantly, give organizations the tools to address it and make sure that they have a comprehensive strategy for managing their open source in place. >> Fantastic, Donald, we're up against time, but I do have a 10 second answer I'd like from you. Tidelift, is that a reference to a rising tide lifting all boats, or is it an admonishment not to build a house on the beach in Malibu? >> It's the former, you know, think about this network of independent open source maintainers, working together, a rising tide lifts all boats. >> Eight seconds, that was like four seconds. Perfect. Donald Fischer, from Tidelift, thank you so much. For me, Dave Nicholson here at the CUBE. This has been a CUBE Conversation, as part of AWS's startup showcase, season two, episode one. Come to the CUBE for the best in tech coverage. (soft music)

>> Well, hello everybody, John Walls here on theCUBE and continuing our coverage. So splunk.com for 21, you know, we talk about big data these days, you realize the importance of speed, right? We all get that, but certainly Formula One Racing understands speed and big data, a really neat marriage there. And with us to talk about that is James Hodge, who was the global vice president and chief strategy officer international at Splunk. James, good to see it today. Thanks for joining us here on theCUBE. >> Thank you, John. Thank you for having me and yeah, the speed of McLaren. Like I'm, I'm all for it today. >> Absolutely. And I find it interesting too, that, that you were telling me before we started the interview that you've been in Splunk going on nine years now. And you remember being at splunk.com, you know, back in the past other years and watching theCUBE and here you are! you made it. >> I know, I think it's incredible. I love watching you guys every single year and kind of the talk that guests. And then more importantly, like it reminds me of conf for every time we see theCUBE, no matter where you are, it reminds me of like this magical week there's dot com for us. >> Well, excellent. I'm glad that we could be a part of it at once again and glad you're a part of it here on theCUBE. Let's talk about McLaren now and the partnership, obviously on the racing side and the e-sports side, which is certainly growing in popularity and in demand. So just first off characterize for our audience, that relationship between Splunk and McLaren. >> Well, so we started the relationship almost two years ago. And for us it was McLaren as a brand. If you think about where they were, they recently, I think it's September a Monza. They got a victory P1 and P2. It was over 3200 days since their last victory. So that's a long time to wait. I think of that. There's 3000 days of continual business transformation, trying to get them back up to the grid. And what we found was that ethos, the drive to digital the, the way they're completely changing things, bringing in kind of fluid dynamics, getting people behind the common purpose that really seem to fit the Splunk culture, what we're trying to do and putting data at the heart of things. So kind of Formula One and McLaren, it felt a really natural place to be. And we haven't really looked back since we started at that partnership. It's been a really exciting last kind of 18 months, two years. >> Well, talk a little bit about, about the application here a little bit in terms of data cars, the, the Formula One cars, the F1 cars, they've got hundreds of sensors on them. They're getting, you know, hundreds of thousands or a hundred thousand data points almost instantly, right? I mean, there's this constant processing. So what are those inputs basically? And then how has McLaren putting them to use, and then ultimately, how is Splunk delivering on that from McLaren? >> So I learned quite a lot, you know, I'm, I'm, I been a childhood Formula One fan, and I've learned so much more about F1 over the last kind of couple of years. So it actually starts with the car going out on the track, but anyone that works in the IT function, the car can not go out on track and less monitoring from the car actually is being received by the garage. It's seen as mission critical safety critical. So IT, when you see a car out and you see the race engineer, but that thumbs up the mechanical, the thumbs up IT, get their vote and get to put the thumbs up before the car goes out on track there around about 300 sensors on the car in practice. And there were two sites that run about 120 on race day that gets streamed on a two by two megabits per second, back to the FIA, the regulating body, and then gets streams to the, the garage where they have a 32 unit rack near two of them that have all of their it equipment take that data. They then stream it over the internet over the cloud, back to the technology center in working where 32 race engineers sit in calm conditions to be able to go and start to make decisions on when the car should pit what their strategy should be like to then relate that back to the track side. So you think about that data journey alone, that is way more complicated and what you see on TV, you know, the, the race energy on the pit wall and the driver going around at 300 kilometers an hour. When we look at what Splunk is doing is making sure that is resilient. You know, is the data coming off the car? Is it actually starting to hit the garage when it hits that rack into the garage, other than streaming that back with the right latency back to the working technology center, they're making sure that all of the support decision-making tools there are available, and that's just what we do for them on race weekend. And I'll give you one kind of the more facts about the car. So you start the beginning of the season, they launched the car. The 80% of that car will be different by the end of the season. And so they're in a continual state of development, like constantly developing to do that. So they're moving much more to things like computational fluid dynamics applications before the move to wind tunnel that relies on digital infrastructure to be able to go and accelerate that journey and be able to go make those assumptions. That's a Splunk is becoming the kind of underpinning of to making sure those mission critical applications and systems are online. And that's kind of just scratching the surface of kind of the journey with McLaren. >> Yeah. So, so what would be an example then maybe on race day, what's a stake race day of an input that comes in and then mission control, which I find fascinating, right? You've got 32 different individuals processing this input and then feeding their, their insights back. Right. And so adjustments are being made on the fly very much all data-driven what would be an example of, of an actual application of some information that came in that was quickly, you know, recorded, noted, and then acted upon that then resulted in an improved performance? >> Well, the most important one is pit stop strategy. It can be very difficult to overtake on track. So starting to look at when other teams go into the pit lane and when they come out of the, the pit lane is incredibly important because it gives you a choice. Do you stay also in your current set of tires and hope to kind of get through that team and kind of overtake them, or do you start to go into the pits and get your fresh sets of tires to try and take a different strategy? There are three people in mission control that have full authority to go and make a Pit lane call. And I think like the thing that really resonated for me from learning about McLaren, the technology is amazing, but it's the organizational constructs on how they turn data into an action is really important. People with the right knowledge and access to the data, have the authority to make a call. It's not the team principle, it's not the person on the pit wall is the person with the most amount of knowledge is authorized and kind of, it's an open kind of forum to go and make those decisions. If you see something wrong, you are just as likely to be able to put your hand up and say, something's wrong here. This is my, my decision than anyone else. And so when we think about all these organizations that are trying to transform the business, we can learn a lot from Formula One on how we delegate authority and just think of like technology and data as the beginning of that journey. It's the people in process that F1 is so well. >> We're talking a lot about racing, but of course, McLaren is also getting involved in e-sports. And so people like you like me, we can have that simulated experience to gaming. And I know that Splunk has, is migrating with McLaren in that regard. Right. You know, you're partnering up. So maybe if you could share a little bit more about that, about how you're teaming up with McLaren on the e-sports side, which I'm sure anybody watching this realizes there's a, quite a big market opportunity there right now. >> It's a huge market opportunity is we got McLaren racing has, you know, Formula One, IndyCar and now extreme E and then they have the other branch, which is e-sports so gaming. And one of the things that, you know, you look at gaming, you know, we were talking earlier about Ted Lasso and, you know, the go to the amazing game of football or soccer, depending on kind of what side of the Atlantic you're on. I can go and play something like FIFA, you know, the football game. I can be amazing at that. I have in reality, you know, in real life I have two left feet. I am never going to be good at football however, what we find with e-sports is it makes gaming and racing accessible. I can go and drive the same circuits as Lando Norris and Daniel Ricardo, and I can improve. And I can learn like use data to start to discover different ways. And it's an incredibly expanding exploding industry. And what McLaren have done is they've said, actually, we're going to make a professional racing team, an e-sports team called the McLaren Shadow team. They have this huge competition called the Logitech KeyShot challenge. And when we looked at that, we sort of lost the similarities in what we're trying to achieve. We are quite often starting to merge the physical world and the digital world with our customers. And this was an amazing opportunity to start to do that with the McLaren team. >> So you're creating this really dynamic racing experience, right? That, that, that gives people like me, or like our viewers, the opportunity to get even a better feel for, for the decision-making and the responsiveness of the cars and all that. So again, data, where does that come into play there? Now, What, what kind of inputs are you getting from me as a driver then as an amateur driver? And, and how has that then I guess, how does it express in the game or expressed in, in terms of what's ahead of me to come in a game? >> So actually there are more data points that come out of the F1 2021 Codemasters game than there are in Formula One car, you get a constant stream. So the, the game will actually stream out real telemetry. So I can actually tell your tire pressures from all of your tires. I can see the lateral G-Force longitudinal. G-Force more importantly for probably amateur drivers like you and I, we can see is the tire on asphalt, or is it maybe on graphs? We can actually look at your exact position on track, how much accelerator, you know, steering lock. So we can see everything about that. And that gets pumped out in real time, up to 60 Hertz. So a phenomenal amount of information, what we, when we started the relationship with McLaren, Formula One super excited or about to go racing. And then at Melbourne, there's that iconic moment where one of the McLaren team tested positive and they withdrew from the race. And what we found was, you know, COVID was starting and the Formula One season was put on hold. The FIA created this season and called i can't remember the exact name of it, but basically a replica e-sports gaming F1 series. We're using the game. Some of the real drivers like Lando, heavy gamer was playing in the game and they'd run that the same as race weekends. They brought celebrity drivers in there. And I think my most surreal zoom call I ever was on was with Lando Norris and Pierre Patrick Aubameyang, who was who's the arsenal football captain, who was the guest driver in the series to drive around Monaco and Randy, the head of race strategy as McLaren, trying to coach him on how to go drive the car, what we ended up with data telemetry coming from Splunk. And so Randy could look out here when he pressing the accelerator and the brake pedal. And what was really interesting was Lando was watching how he was entering corners on the video feed and intuitively kind of coming to the same conclusions as Randy. So kind of, you could see that race to intuition versus the real stats, and it was just incredible experience. And it really shows you, you know, racing, you've got that blurring of the physical and the virtual that it's going to be bigger and bigger and bigger. >> So to hear it here, as I understand what you were just saying now, the e-sports racing team actually has more data to adjust its performance and to modify its behaviors, then the real racing team does. Yep. >> Yeah, it completely does. So what we want to be able to do is turn that into action. So how do you do the right car setup? How do you go and do the right practice laps actually have really good practice driver selection. And I think we're just starting to scratch the surface of what really could be done. And the amazing part about this is now think of it more like a digital twin, what we learn on e-sports we can actually say we've learned something really interesting here, and then maybe a low, you know, if we get something wrong, it may be doesn't matter quite as much as maybe getting an analytics wrong on race weekend. >> Right. >> So we can actually start to look and improve through digital and then start to move that support. That's over to kind of race weekend analytics and supporting the team. >> If I could, you know, maybe pun intended here, shift gears a little bit before we run out of time. I mean, you're, you're involved on the business side, you know, you've got, you know, you're in the middle east Africa, right? You've got, you know, quite an international portfolio on your plate. Now let's talk about just some of the data trends there for our viewers here in the U S who maybe aren't as familiar with what's going on overseas, just in terms of, especially post COVID, you know, what, what concerns there are, or, or what direction you're trying to get your clients to, to be taking in terms of getting back to work in terms of, you know, looking at their workforce opportunities and strengths and all those kinds of things. >> I think we've seen a massive shift. I think we've seen that people it's not good enough just to be storing data its how do you go and utilize that data to go and drive your business forwards I think a couple of key terms we're going to see more and more over the next few years is operational resilience and business agility. And I'd make the assertion that operational resilience is the foundation for the business agility. And we can dive into that in a second, but what we're seeing take the Netherlands. For example, we run a survey last year and we found that 87% of the respondents had created new functions to do with data machine learning and AI, as all they're trying to do is go and get more timely data to front line staff to go. And next that the transformation, because what we've really seen through COVID is everything is possible to be digitized and we can experiment and get to market faster. And I think we've just seen in European markets, definitely in Asia Pacific is that the kind of brand loyalty is potentially waning, but what's the kind of loyalty is just to an experience, you know, take a ride hailing app. You know, I get to an airport, I try one ride hailing app. It tells me it's going to be 20 minutes before a taxi arrives. I'm going to go straight to the next app to go and stare. They can do it faster. I want the experience. I don't necessarily want the brand. And we're find that the digital experience by putting data, the forefront of that is really accelerating and actually really encouraging, you know, France, Germany are actually ahead of UK. Let's look, listen, their attitudes and adoption to data. And for our American audience and America, America is more likely, I think it's 72% more likely to have a chief innovation officer than the rest of the world. I think I'm about 64% in EMEA. So America, you are still slightly ahead of us in terms of kind of bringing some of that innovation that. >> I imagine that gap is going to be shrinking though I would think. >> It is massively shrinking. >> So before we, we, we, we are just a little tight on time, but I want to hear about operational resilience and, and just your, your thought that definition, you know, define that for me a little bit, you know, put a little more meat on that bone, if you would, and talk about why, you know, what that is in, in your thinking today and then why that is so important. >> So I think inputting in, in racing, you know, operational resilience is being able to send some response to what is happening around you with people processing technology, to be able to baseline what your processes are and the services you're providing, and be able to understand when something is not performing as it should be, what we're seeing. Things like European Union, in financial services, or at the digital operational resilience act is starting to mandate that businesses have to be operational in resilient service, monitoring fraud, cyber security, and customer experience. And what we see is really operational resilience is the amount of change that can be absorbed before opportunities become risk. So having a stable foundation of operational resilience allows me to become a more agile business because I know my foundation and people can then move and adjust quickly because I have the awareness of my environment and I have the ability to appropriately react to my environment because I've thought about becoming a resilient business with my digital infrastructure is a theme. I think we're going to see in supply chain coming very soon and across all other industries, as we realize digital is our business. Nowadays. >> What's an exciting world. Isn't it, James? That you're, that you're working in right now. >> Oh, I, I love it. You know, you said, you know, eight and an eight and a half years, nine years at Splunk, I'm still smiling. You know, it is like being at the forefront of this diesel wave and being able to help people make action from that. It's an incredible place to be. I, is liberating and yeah, I can't even begin to imagine what's, you know, the opportunities are over the next few years as the world continually evolves. >> Well, every day is a school day, right? >> It is my favorite phrase >> I knew that. >> And it is, James Hodge. Thanks for joining us on theCUBE. Glad to have you on finally, after being on the other side of the camera, it's great to have you on this side. So thanks for making that transition for us. >> Thank you, John. You bet James Hodge joining us here on the cube coverage of splunk.com 21, talking about McLaren racing team speed and Splunk.

(upbeat music) >> We're back. This is Dave Vellante of theCUBE, and we're here with Ray Wang, who just wrote a book reminiscent of the famous Tears for Fears song, Everybody Wants to Rule the World: Surviving and Thriving in a World of Digital Giants. Ray, great to see again, man. >> What's going on, man, how are you? >> Oh great, thanks for coming on. You know, it was crazy, been crazy, but it's good to see you face-to-face. >> Ray: This is, we're in the flesh, it's live, we're having conversations, and the information that we're getting is cut right. >> Dave: Yeah, so why did you write this book and how did you find the time? >> Hey, we're in the middle of pandemic. No, I wrote the book because what was happening was digital transformation efforts, they're starting to pop up, but companies weren't always succeeding. And something was happening with digital giants that was very different. They were winning in the marketplace. And never in the form of, if you think about extreme capitalism, if we think about capitalism in general, never in the history of capitalism have we seen growth of large companies. They get large, they fall apart, they don't have anything to build, they can't scale. Their organizations are in shambles. But what happened? If you look at 2017, the combined market cap of the FAANGs and Microsoft was 2 trillion. Today, it is almost 10.2 trillion. It's quintupled. That's never happened. And there's something behind that business model that they put into place that others have copied, from the Airbnbs to the Robloxes to what's going to happen with like a Starlink, and of course, the Robinhoods and you know, Robinhoods and Coinbases of the world. >> And the fundamental premise is all around data, right? Putting data at the core, if you don't do that, you're going to fly blind. >> It is and the secret behind that is the long-term platforms called data-driven digital networks. These platforms take the ability, large memberships, our large devices, they look at that effect. Then they look at figuring out how to actually win on data supremacy. And then of course, they monetize off that data. And that's really the secret behind that is you've got to build that capability and what they do really well is they dis-intermediate customer account control. They take the relationships, aggregate them together. So food delivery app companies are great example of that. You know, small businesses are out there that hundreds and thousands of customers. Today, what happens? Well, they've been aggregated. Millions of customers together into food delivery app. >> Well, I think, you know, this is really interesting what you're saying, because if you think about how we deal with Netflix, we don't call the Netflix sales department or the marketing department of the service, just one interface, the Netflix. So they've been able to put data at their core. Can incumbents do that? How can they do that? >> Incumbents can definitely do that. And it's really about figuring out how to automate that capture. What you really want to do is you start in the cloud, you bring the data together, and you start putting the three A's, analytics, automation, and AI are what you have to be able to put into place. And when you do do that, you now have the ability to go out and figure out how to create that flywheel effect inside those data-driven digital networks. These DDDNS are important. So in Netflix, what are they capturing? They're looking at sentiment, they're looking at context. Like why did you interact with, you know, one title versus another? Did you watch Ted Lasso? Did you switch out of Apple TV to Netflix? Well, I want to know why, right? Did you actually jump into another category? You switched into genres. After 10:00 p.m., what are you watching? Maybe something very different than what you're watching at 2:00 p.m.. How many members are in the home, right? All these questions are being answered and that's the business graph behind all this. >> How much of this is kind of related to the way organizations or companies are organized? In other words, you think about, historically, they would maybe put the process at the core or the, in a bottling plant, the manufacturing facility at the core and the data's all dispersed. Everybody talks about silos. So will AI be the answer to that? Will some new database, Snowflake? Is that the answer? What's the answer to sort of bringing that data together and how do you deal with the organizational inertia? >> Well, the trick to it is really to have a single plane to be able to access that data. I don't care where the data sits, whether it's on premise, whether it's in the cloud, whether it's in the edge, it makes no difference. That's really what you want to be able to do is bring that information together. But the glue is the context. What time was it? What's the weather outside? What location are you in? What's your heart rate? Are you smiling, right? All of those factors come into play. And what we're trying to do is take a user, right? So it could be a customer, a supplier, a partner, or an employee. And how do they interact with an order doc, an invoice, an incident, and then apply the context. And what we're doing is mining that context and information. Now, the more, back to your other point on self service and automation, the more you can actually collect those data points, the more you can capture that context, the more you're able to get to refine that information. >> Context, that's interesting, because if you think about our operational systems, we've contextualized most of them, whether it's sales, marketing, logistics, but we haven't really contextualized our data systems, our data architecture. It's generally run by a technical group. They don't necessarily have the line of business context. You see what HPE is doing today is trying to be inclusive of data on prem. I mentioned Snowflake, they're saying no way. Frank Slootman says we're not going on prem. So that's kind of interesting. So how do you see sort of context evolving with the actually the business line? Not only who has the context actually can, I hate to use the word, but I'm going to, own the data. >> You have to have a data to decisions pathway. That data decisions pathway is you start with all types of data, structured, unstructured, semi-structured, you align it to a business process as an issue, issue to resolution, order to cash, procure to pay, hire to retire. You bring that together, and then you start mining and figuring out what patterns exist. Once you have the patterns, you can then figure out the next best action. And when you get the next best action, you can compete on decisions. And that becomes a very important part. That decision piece, that's going to be automated. And when we think about that, you and I make a decision one per second, how long does it get out of management committee? Could be a week, two weeks, a quarter, a year. It takes forever to get anything out of management committee. But these new systems, if you think about machines, can make decisions a hundred times per second, a thousand times per second. And that's what we're competing against. That asymmetry is the decision velocity. How quickly you can make decisions will be a competitive weapon. >> Is there a dissonance between the fact that you just mentioned, speed, compressing, that sort of time to decision, and the flip side of that coin, quality, security, governance. How do you see squaring that circle? >> Well, that's really why we're going to have to make that, that's the automated, that's the AI piece. Just like we have all types of data, we got to spew up automated ontologies, we got to spit them up, we got to be using, we've got to put them back into play, and then we got to be able to take back into action. And so you want enterprise class capabilities. That's your data quality. That's your security. That's the data governance. That's the ability to actually take that data and understand time series, and actually make sure that the integrity of that data is there. >> What do you think about this sort of notion that increasingly, people are going to be building data products and services that can be monetized? And that's kind of goes back to context, the business lines kind of being responsible for their own data, not having to get permission to add another data source. Do you see that trend? Do you see that decentralization trend? Two-part question. And where do you see HPE fitting into that? >> I see, one, that that trend is definitely going to exist. I'll give you an example. I can actually destroy the top two television manufacturers in the world in less than five years. I could take them out of the business and I'll show you how to do it. So I'm going to make you an offer. $15 per month for the next five years. I'm going to give you a 72 inch, is it 74? 75 inch, 75 inch smart TV, 4k, big TV, right? And it comes with a warranty. And if anything breaks, I'm going to return it to you in 48 hours or less with a brand new one. I don't want your personal information. I'm only going to monitor performance data. I want to know the operations. I want to know which supplier lied to me, which components are working, what features you use. I don't need to know your personal viewing habits, okay? Would you take that deal? >> TV is a service, sure, of course I would. >> 15 bucks and I'm going to make you a better deal. For $25 a month, you get to make an upgrade anytime during that five-year period. What would happen to the two largest TV manufacturers if I did that? >> Yeah, they'd be disrupted. Now, you obviously have a pile of VC money that you're going to do that. Will you ever make money at that model? >> Well, here's why I'll get there and I'll explain. What's going to happen is I lock them out of the market for four to five years. I'm going to take 50 to 60% of the market. Yes, I got to raise $10 billion to figure out how to do that. But that's not really what happens at the end. I become a data company because I have warranty data. I'm going to buy a company that does, you know, insurance like in Asurion. I'm going to get break/fix data from like a Best Buy or a company like that. I'm going to get at safety data from an underwriter's lab. It's a competition for data. And suddenly, I know those habits better than anyone else. I'm going to go do other things more than the TV. I'm not done with the TV. I'm going to do your entire kitchen. For $100 a month, I'll do a mid range. For like $500 a month, I'm going to take your dish washer, your washer, your dryer, your refrigerator, your range. And I'll do like Miele, Gaggenau, right? If you want to go down Viking, Wolf, I'll do it for $450 a month for the next 10 years. By year five, I have better insurance information than the insurance companies from warranty. And I can even make that deal portable. You see where we're going? >> Yeah so each of those are, I see them as data products. So you've got your TV service products, you've got your kitchen products, you've got your maintenance, you know, data products. All those can be monetized. >> And I went from TV manufacturer to underwriter overnight. I'm competing on data, on insurance, and underwriting. And more importantly, here's the green initiative. Here's why someone would give me $10 billion to do it. I now control 50% of all power consumption in North America because I'm also going to do HVAC units, right? And I can actually engineer the green capabilities in there to actually do better power purchase consumption, better monitoring, and of course, smart capabilities in those, in those appliances. And that's how you actually build a model like that. And that's how you can win on a data model. Now, where does HPE fit into that? Their job is to bring that data together at the edge. They bring that together in the middle. Then they have the ability to manage that on a remote basis and actually deliver those services in the cloud so that someone else can consume it. >> All right, so if you, you're hitting on something that some people have have talked about, but it's, I don't think it's widely sort of discussed. And that is, historically, if you're in an industry, you're in that industry's vertical stack, the sales, the marketing, the manufacturing, the R&D. You become an expert in insurance or financial services or whatever, you know, automobile manufacturing or radio and television, et cetera. Obviously, you're seeing the big internet giants, those 10 trillion, you know, some of the market caps, they're using data to traverse industries. We've never seen this before. Amazon in content, you're seeing Apple in finance, others going into the healthcare. So they're technology companies that are able to traverse industries. Never seen this before, and it's because of data. >> And it's the collapsing value chains. Their data value chains are collapsing. Comms, media, entertainment, tech, same business. Whether you sell me a live stream TV, a book, a video game, or some enterprise software, it's the same data value stream on multi-sided networks. And once you understand that, you can see retail, right? Distribution, manufacturing collapsed in the same kind of way. >> So Silicon Valley broadly defined, if I can include, you know, Microsoft and Amazon in there, they seem to have a dual disruption agenda, right? One is on the technology front, disrupting, you know, the traditional enterprise business. The other is they're disrupting industries. How do you see that playing out? >> Well the problem is, they're never going to be able to get into new industries going forward because of the monopoly power that people believe they have, and that's what's going on, but they're going to invest in creating joint venture startups in other industries, as they power the tools to enable other industries to jump and leap frog from where they are. So healthcare, for example, we're going to have AI in monitoring in ways that we never seen before. You can see devices enter healthcare, but you see joint venture partnerships between a big hyperscaler and some of the healthcare providers. >> So HPE transforming into a cloud company as a service, do you see them getting into insurance as you just described in your little digital example? >> No, but I see them powering the folks that are in insurance, right? >> They're not going to compete with their customers maybe the way that Amazon did. >> No, that's actually why you would go to them as opposed to a hyperscale that might compete with you, right? So is Google going to get into the insurance business? Probably not. Would Amazon? Maybe. Is Tesla in the business? Yeah, they're definitely in insurance. >> Yeah, big time, right. So, okay. So tell me more about your book. How's it being received? What's the reaction? What's your next book? >> So the book is doing well. We're really excited. We did a 20 city book tour. We had chances to meet everybody across the board. Clients we couldn't see in a while, partners we didn't see in a while. And that was fun. The reaction is, if you read the book carefully, there are $3 trillion market cap opportunities, $1000 billion unicorns that can be built right there. >> Is, do you have a copy for me that's signed? (audience laughing) >> Ray: Sorry (coughs) I'm choking on my makeup. I can get one actually, do you want one? >> Dave: I do, I want, I want one. >> Can someone bring my book bag? I actually have one, I can sign it right here. >> Dave: Yeah, you know what? If we have a book, I'd love to hold it. >> Ray: Do you have any here as well? >> So it's obviously you know, Everybody Wants to Rule the World: Surviving and Thriving in a world of Digital Giants, available, you know, wherever you buy books. >> Yeah, so, oh, are we still going? >> Dave: Yeah, yeah, we're going. >> Okay. >> Dave: What's the next book? >> Next book? Well, it's about disrupting those digital giants and it's going to happen in the metaverse economy. If we think about where the metaverse is, not just the hardware platforms, not just the engines, not just what's going on with the platforms around defy decentralization and the content producers, we see those as four different parts today. What we're going to actually see is a whole comp, it's a confluence of events that's going to happen where we actually bring in the metaverse economy and the stuff that Neal Stephenson was writing about ages ago in Snow Crash is going to come out real. >> So, okay. So you're laying out a scenario that the big guys, the disruptors, could get disrupted. It sounds like crypto is possibly a force in that disruption. >> Ray: Decentralized currencies, crypto plays a role, but it's the value exchange mechanisms in an Algorand, in an Ether, right, in a Cardano, that actually enables that to happen because the value exchange in the smart contracts power that capability, and what we're actually seeing is the reinvention of the internet. So you think, see things like SIOM pop-up, which actually is creating the new set of the internet standards, and when those things come together, what we're actually going to move from is the seller is completely transparent, the buyer's completely anonymous and it's in a trust framework that actually allows you to do that. >> Well, you think about those protocols, the internet protocols that were invented whenever, 30 years ago, maybe more, TCP/IP, wow. I mean, okay. And they've been co-opted by the internet giants. It's the crypto guys, some of the guys you've mentioned that are actually innovating and putting, putting down new innovation really and have been well-funded to do so. >> I mean, I'll give you another example of how this could happen. About four years ago, five years ago, I wanted to buy Air Canada's mileage program, $400 million, 10 million users, 40 bucks a user. What do I want them in a mileage program? Well think about it. It's funded, a penny per mile. It's redeemed at 1.6 cents a mile. It's 2 cents if you buy magazines, 2 1/2 cents if you want, you know, electronics, jewelry, or sporting equipment. You don't lose money on these. CFOs hate them, they're just like (groans) liability on the books, but they mortgage the crap out of them in the middle of an ish problem and banks pay millions of dollars a year pour those mileage points. But I don't want it for the 10 million flyers in Canada. What I really want is the access to 762 million people in Star Alliance. What would happen if I turned that airline mileage program into cryptocurrency? One, I would be the world's largest cryptocurrency on day one. What would happen on day two? I'd be the world's largest ad network. Cookie apocalypse, go away. We don't need that anymore. And more importantly, on day three, what would I do? My ESG here? 2.2 billion people are unbanked in the world. All you need is a mobile device and a connection, now you have a currency without any government regulation around, you know, crayon banking, intermediaries, a whole bunch of people like taking cuts, loansharking, that all goes away. You suddenly have people that are now banked and you've unbanked, you've banked the unbanked. And that creates a whole very different environment. >> Not a lot of people thinking about how the big giants get disintermediated. Get the book, look into it, big ideas. Ray Wang, great to see you, man. >> Ray: Hey man, thanks a lot. >> Hey, thank you. All right and thank you for watching. Keep it right there for more great content from HPE's big GreenLake announcements. Be right back. (bright music)