>> What? Welcome to a special keep conversation here in Palo Alto. Shot for host of the Cube. The Palo Alto Studios here in Palo Alto. Where here With Adam Casella, CEO and co founder of Snap Route and Glenn Sullivan, Cofounder. Snap. Right, guys, Good to see you. Thanks for coming on. So, you guys are a hot startup launching you guys? Former apple engineers, running infrastructure, I would say large scale an apple, >> just a little bit >> global nature. Tell the story. What? How did you guys start the company? We did it all come from the apple. A lot of motivation to see a lot there. You seeing huge trends? You'd probably building your own stuff. What was that? What was the story? >> So, yeah, basically way. We were running a large external stuff at Apple. So think of you know, anything you would use his user, Siri maps, iTunes, icloud, those air, the networks that Adam and I were responsible for keeping up, keeping stable on DH. You know, there was a lot of growth. So this is pretty twenty fifteen. We started snapping on August twenty fifteen, so it's a big growth period for, you know, icloud. Big growth period for iTunes. Lots of users, lots of demand. Sort of lots of building infrastructure in sort of a firefighting mode on DH. One of the things that occurred is that we needed to move to more of, you know, infrastructure kind of building out as you need it for capacity. If you start talking to the folks up the road, you know, with Facebook and Google and Microsoft and all those folks, you realize that you have to kind of build it, and then they will come. You can't really always be reactionary and building these kind of bespoke artisanal networks, right? So him and I had to come at it from both a architectural apology network kind of network engineering, geeky kind of level, and also from an automation orchestration. Visibility standpoint. So we pretty much had to do a Nen tire reimagining of what we were building as we were going to build these new networks to make sure we could could anticipate capacity and deploy things before you know it was necessary. >> Yeah, and make sure that the network is agile, flexible enough to respond to those needs, and change isn't required. >> You mentioned. The surge came around time for twenty, twelve, twenty, thirteen, different exactly apples been around for a while, so they had. They were buying boxes and start racking and stacking for years. So they have applications probably going back a decade, of course. So as Apple started to really, really grow Icloud and the iPhone seven, you still got legacy. So how did you guys constantly reshaped the network without breaking it with some of the things that you guys saw? That was successful because it's kind of a case study of, you know, you know, the next level without breaking >> anything. Yeah, did when migration was interesting, uh, essentially into doing it. She start attacking it for the legacy environments as Iraq. Iraq process, right? You gotta figure out what applications better most easily be able to move and start with the low hanging fruit first so you could start proving out the concept that you're talking about. You try with the hardest aspect or the Horace Apt to move. You're going to get it with a lot of road block. If my you might actually fail potentially and you won't get what you need where you need to go if you took, took some low hanging fruit applications that can easily migrate between, you know, an old environment and new environment. >> It's not dissimilar to environments where things are acquisition heavy, like we've got some friends at some other Silicon Valley companies that are very active. You know, acquisition heavy, right? It's It's a company that's one name on the outside, but it's twenty thirty different Cos on the inside, and what they typically end up doing is they end up treating each one of those as islands of customers, and they build out a core infrastructure, and they treat themselves more like an ice pick. So if you if you Khun, meld your environment where you're more like a service provider and you're different legacy applications and new applications arm or you know customers, then you're going to end up in a better situation and that we did a little bit of that, you know, at Apple, where they have, you know, really, really core service provider, head the type. You know, if a structure with all of these different customers hanging >> off his isolation options there. But also integration, probably smoother. If you think it was a service provider. >> DeMarcus solid right and clear. >> So talk about the nature you got cloud experts. I'll see infrastructure experts. You're really in the The Deep Dev ops movement as it goes kind of multi and agree because he got storage, networking and compute the holy trinity of infrastructure kind. All changing on being reimagined. Storage isn't going away. More data is being stored. Networks need to be programmable on DH, Secure and Computers unlimited. Now it's naming all kinds of innovation. So you're seeing companies, whether it's the department defense with the Jed I contract trying to. You're the best architecture on enterprise that might have a lot of legacy trying to re imagine the question of what to do around multi cloud and data center relationships. What's your perspective on this phenomenon? OK, we have tohave scale, so we have a little bit on Prem or a lot of fun. Prem, We'll have cloud and Amazon maybe cloud over Microsoft, so it's really gonna be multiple clouds. But is it simply the answer of multiple clouds just for the sake of being multi cloud? Or is there a reason for Multi Cloud is reason for one cloud. You sure? Your perspective on the >> sure it's it it's the thought might be that it's kind of most important have one overarching strategy that you adapt to everything, and that's sort of true, right? We'd say, Okay, well, we're going to standardize something like you, Bernetti. So we're gonna have one Cuban, these cluster and that Cubans cluster is going to run in desert. It's got running. Google is going to run in, you know, on Prem and all that. It's actually less important that you have one fabric or one cluster, one unified way to manage things. What's more important is that you standardize on a tool set and you standardize on a methodology. And so you say, Okay, I need to have an orchestration later. Find that's communities. You have a run time environment for my container ization. Sure, that's Dr or whatever other solutions you wantto have. And then you have a P structures that used to program these things. It's much more important that all those things they're standardized that then they're unified, right? You say I have Cooper Natives control, and I'm gonna control it the same way, whether it's a desert, whether it's in Google Cloud or whether or not it's on Prem. That's the more important part. Rather than say, I have one big thing and I try to manage so to your point, >> by having that control point that's standard with all the guys allows for. The micro services camp allows for all these new agile and capabilities. Then it becomes the cloud for the job. Things are exactly Office three sixty five. Why not use Azure? >> Yeah, I mean, that's the whole problem with doing like technology. Pick technology sake. Technology doesn't solve problems. Old is maybe a, you know, piece technologies to peace technology. And I think it's why you look at like, cloud native communities and doctor and and you know why Dr initially had a lot more struggle and widely more successful after you, Seymour, that cloud that have come out there because cloud native put a process around how you could go ahead and ensure these things. We deployed in a way that was easily managed, right? You have C I. D for I want my container. But out there, I have a way to manage it with communities in this particular pipeline and have a way to get it deployed. Without that structure, you're going to be just doing technology for technology sake. >> Yeah, and this is modernizing, too. So it's a great point about the control point. I want to just take it the next level, which is, you know, back when I was breaking into the business, the word multi vendor was a word that everyone tossed around every multi vendor. Why we need choice choices good. While choice down streams always, it was always something. There's an option. More optionality, less of a reality, so obvious is good. No one wants the vendor locking unless you It's affordable and spine, right? So intel chips a lock in, but no one ever cares, processes stuff and moves on. Um, so the notion of multi vendor multi cloud How do you guys think about that? As you look at the architectural changes of a modern compute, modern stories modern network facility, >> I think it's really important. Tio, go back to what you said before about office three sixty five, right? Like why would you run that? Other places other than deserve rights, got all the tools. Lt's. It's really, really critical that you don't allow yourself to get boxed into a corner where you're going to the lowest common denominator across all the platforms, right? So so when you're looking at multi cloud or hybrid cloud solution, use what's best for what you're doing. But make sure that you've got your two or three points that you won't waver on right like communities like AP Integration like whatever service abstraction layers that you want right? Focus on those, but then be flexible to allow yourself to put the workloads where they make sense. And having mobile workloads is the whole point to going into the Qatar having a multi cloud strategy anyway. Workload mobility is key >> workloads and the apse of Super Port. You mentioned earlier about ass moving around, and that's the reality, correct. If that becomes the reality and is the norm than the architecture has to wrap around it, how did you advise and how do you view that of unfolding? Because if data becomes now a very key part of a workload data, considerable clouds late and see comes. And now here you go, backto Leighton Sea and laws of physics. So I just start thinking about the network and the realities of moving things around. What do you guys see as a A so directionally correct path for that? >> Sure. So I kind of see if you look if you break down, OK? You have storage, You have network. You have, You know, applications, right? And I heard something that from a while ago actually agree with that. I says, you know, Dad is the new soil, right? And I look at that, OK, That that is new soil. Then guess what network is the water and the applications air seats. And if you have missing one of those, you're not going to end up with a with a, you know, a growing plants. And so if you don't have the construct of having all these things managed in a way that you could actually keep track of all of them and make them work in chorus, you're going to end up where e Yeah, I could move my application to, you know, from point A to point B. But now it's failed. Haven't they? Don't have connectivity. I don't have storage. Or I can go out there and I have storage and, you know, no connectivity or kind. Give me and, you know, missing one. Those competed on there and you don't end up with a fully functioning you know, environment that allows you >> so. The interplay between stories, networking and compute has to be always tightly managed or controlled to be flexible, to manage whatever situation when I was growing >> and you gotta have the metadata, right, like, you've got to be able to get this stuff out of the network. That's why that's why what we're doing it's not proud is so critical for us is because you need to have the data presented in a way, using the telemetry tools of choice that give you the information to be able to move the workloads appropriately. The network can't be a black box, just like in the in the storage side. This storage stuff can't be a black box, either, right? You have to have the data so that you could place the workload is appropriately >> okay. What's your guy's thesis for a snapper out when you guys started the company? What was the the guiding principle or the core thesis? And what core problem did you solve? So answer the question. Core problem. We solve his blank. What is that? >> So I think the core problem we solve is getting applications deployed faster than they ever have been right And having making, doing, making sure it's not a secure way in an efficient way. Operationally mean those air, basically, what the tenants of what we're trying to solve a what we're going for. And, uh the reason for is that today the network is withholding back the business from being able to employ their applications faster, whether it be in a polo sight, whether it be local on data center or whether being, you know, in the cloud from, you know, their perspective connectivity between their local, on prep stuff on whatever might be in, you know, eight of us is ordered >> Google and enabling that happened in seamlessly so that the network is not in the way or >> yeah. So if you could now see what's happened on the network and now you can have control over that aspect of it, you do it in a way. It's familiar to people who are deploying those applications. They now have that ability to place those work clothes intelligently and making sure that they can have the configuration of activity that they need for those applications. >> Okay, so I say I said, You guys, Hey, I'm solvent. Assault, sold. I love this. What do I do next? How doe I engage with you guys, Do I buy software? So I loaded Bokkelen infrastructure. What's the What's the snap route solution? >> So so the first part of the discussions, we talk about hardware. Obviously, we don't make our own hardware. That's the whole point of this allegation. Is that you by the harbor from somebody else? Andi, you buy the software from us, so there's a lot of times of the initial engagements. There's some education that goes on about this is what this aggregation means, and it's very, very similar to what we saw in the computer world, right? You had your classic, you know, environments where people were buying. You know, big iron from HP and Dell and IBM and Sun and everybody else, right? But now they can get it from, you know, ziti and kwon and sort of micro and and whoever else and they wouldn't They would really think of buying software from those same companies. Maybe some management software, but you're not going to buy your licks version from the same people that you're buying your harbor from. So once we explain and kind of educate on that process and some folks that are already learning this, the big cloud providers already figuring this out, then it's a matter of, you know, here's the software solution and here's howto >> be a threat to civilians getting what? My plugging into my connecting to certain systems, how would I just deploy? It will take me through the use case of installing it. What is it? Connect to >> shirt. So you have your white box top Iraq device or, you know, switching my on there. You load our code on there. We used only to initially deploy the stuff on there on. Then you can go. You can go ahead and load all the containers on. They're using things like helm and pulling it from harbor. Whether that be exciting, if you have locally or internally or you Khun bundling altogether and loaded in one particular image and then you can start, you know, interacting with that cabinet is a P I. To go ahead and sort of computing device. Additionally, we'll make sure this is clear to people who are, you know, networking guys going on. Cooper. Netease. God, what is all this? I never heard of this stuff. We supply a full fledged CIA, lied. It looks and feels just like you want a regular network device toe act as a bridge from what you do, those guys are comfortable with today to where the future is going to be a and it sits on top of that same apia. >> So network as we're comfortable with this correct that's going >> and they get to do stuff using cloud native tools without worrying about, you know, understanding micro services or continue ization. They now have the ability to pull contenders off, put new containers on in a way that they would just normally use. Is he alive? >> I want to get you guys thoughts on a trend that we've been reporting on and kind of coming on the Cube. And I certainly have been a lot from past couple years past year. Particular covering this cloud native since the C in C S Koo coupon was starting, were there when that kind of started. Developers, we know that world develops a scene and agile, blah, blah, blah, All that good stuff. Networking guys used to be the keys, have keys thinking they were gods. You're networking engineer. Oh, yeah, I'm the guy saying No, All the time I'm in charge. Come through me. But now the world's flipped around. Applications need the network to do what it wants yet. Right. So you start to see program ability around networks. Let's go live. We saw the trend. The trend there is definite there. Developer programs growing really, really fast. He started. See networking folks turned into developers. So youjust smart ones do. And the networking concepts around provisioning is that you see service measures on top of you. Burnett. He's hot. So you start to see the network. Parent Policy based this policy based that program ability Automation. It's kind of in the wheelhouse of a network person. Yeah, your guys. Thoughts on the evolution of the developer, The network developer. Is it really? Is it hyped up? Is that and where's ago? So >> we're going back to where we're networking originated from right. Developers started networking. I mean, let's not forget that right. It wasn't done by some guy who says I have a sea lion. I'm going now that work's work. Know someone had to write the code. Someone have deployed out there. But eventually you got to those guys where they went to particular vendors and those systems became or closed. And they weren't able to go ahead and have that open ecosystem that we, you know, has been built on the compute side. So that's kind of, um it does say, or, you know, hindered those particular that industry from growing, right. Never going. She's been hindered by this. We have been able to do an open ecosystem to get that operational innovation in there. So as we've moved on further and now as we get that, you know, those people saying no. Hey, you can't do anything. No, no, no. We have the keys to the castle. We're not gonna let you through here. The devil's guys, we're going when we still need to. The player applications are business still needs to move forward, So we're going to go around. And you could see that with some of the early ESPN solutions going on there says, you know what? I figure like that we just exist. Okay. Tunnel we're going to go over you. That day is coming to an end. But we're not going to go do that long termers air going on here because that efficiency there, the overhead there is really, really high. So as we start going on further, we're good. I have to pull back in tow. When we originally started with networking where you have people will use that open ecosystem and develop things on there and start programming the networks to match what's happened with the applications. So I see it. Something just >> clicked in your thoughts. >> Yes. So the smart network engineers, the guys and girls out there that want to be progressive and, you know, really adapt themselves are going to recognize that their value add isn't in being a SEAL I jockey and cutting and pasting from their playbooks in their method. They're forty eight page method of procedures that they've written for how to upgrade this chassis. Right. Um, your your expertise is an operational, you know, run time. Your your expertise is an operational best practice, right? So you need to just translate that. Lookit communities, looking operators, right, operators, existing communities to bake in operational intelligence and best practices into a bundle deployment, Right? So translate that. Right? So what's the best way to take this device out of service and do an upgrade? It's us step. It's a method of procedures translating that new acumen and his operator to put that in your communities bundle Senate in your image. You're good to go like this is. The translation has happened there. There is an interim step right. You know, our friends over at answerable are friends and puppet, insult and chef and all. They've got different ways to control. You know, traditional see allies using, you know, very, very kind of screen scraping, pushing the commands down and verifying getting output in changing that, it's possible to do it that way. It's just really painful. So what we're saying is, why don't you just do it? Natively use the tool like an operator and then put your intelligence into design operational intelligence layout like do that level instead of, you know, cutting and pasting >> for so developers are it's all developers. Now it's emerged together. Now you have open >> infrastructure is code right? >> Infrastructures code? Yeah, everything >> Israel programmer, I mean, but you can't you can't and I want to make sure it's already clear to include was saying that you can't get away from the guys who run networks and what they've seen experienced that they've had so but they need to now take that to his point and making it something that you actually can develop in code against and actually make into a process that can be done over and over again. Not just words on paper. >> That's what I think they were. Developer angles. So really, it's about translating operational efficiencies into the network into code because to move APS around do kind of dynamic provisioning and containing all the services that are coming online. >> And you can only do that if you've actually taking a look at what how the network operating systems architected and adopt a new approach of doing it because the legacy, ways of doing it don't work here >> and getting an operation from like what you guys were approached. Your strategy and thesis is having OS baked as close to the network as possible for the most flexible on high performance. Nice thing. Secure abstraction, layers, first proxies and >> simple it down >> with that great guys. Thanks. And good luck on eventually keep will be following you. Thanks for the conversation. Thank you for your conversation here in Palo Alto. I'm John for you're talking networking cloud native with snap route. Launching a new operating system for networks for cloud native. I'm John Forget. Thanks for watching.