from the Regency Center in San Francisco it's the queue covering serverless con San Francisco 2018 brought to you by silicon ankle media upstream in a minute you're watching the cubes coverage of thanks for joining me yeah thanks all right so you work for a company server lists we're in a conference about server list help us explain a little bit your background your company yeah well I guess I'll start with the capital s service the only way I know to distinguish so service got its start when Austin Collins he was an AWS community hero he decided that he wanted to use this new lambda thing to launch some of his own side projects so he built the service framework he did not expect for it to completely skyrocket I think we have like somewhere close to thirty thousand github stars it's like 25 28 at this point and it really kind of like this whole surrealist movement lowercase s now started to build up around AWS lambda and like all of the major cloud providers started launching their own service solutions right and so I got involved with serverless calm because I guess I had been in the tech industry in San Francisco for a while I think I have a pretty non-traditional background for someone who's at a developer tools company I've kind of done things all over the map and right now what I do primarily at service is write a lot of their content you know think that they tweet out things that are in their newsletter on their blog a lot of tech writing and stuff like that yeah you know some techies you know they it's like oh wait that's like marketing stuff we can't do this you give a lightning talk here maybe give give our audience a little bit of a flavor what you talked about there yeah I mean I think one of the biggest appeals to me about service as a company was how passionate everyone there was about the fact that you didn't need to have an engineering background to be able to develop software and we have people in our company who have like film backgrounds who have fashion backgrounds and they're working at a tech company and so really what my talk was about is I deploy applications and that's because technologies like Surrealists really lower the barrier to entry for people who were trying to get involved in this stuff so I was able to deploy a fully working applications that even having to coat that much and I think that it's something really exciting that not a lot of people are talking about right yeah and you're something I'm a little older than you when I went to school it's like we called it programming and that was like you know you wrote code which meant you know you got some big book you look like you know lines of code and you execute this now it's like you know well coding you take a bunch of stuff you put it together you know it looks you know very different from you know what I learned to program back in the day and therefore you know right you don't need a CS major necessarily to be able to get some doing and several it sounds like you know is lowers that bar even more right yeah I mean like one of the things is I do feel like AWS lambda for instance that already makes it so much easier to be able to you know code something and publicly host it you don't have to worry about setting up your own server isn't all that stuff it also makes it a lot cheaper to get started so if you just have like this side project or a hackathon project you know super easy to kind of just deploy that to anyone a cool thing that I feel like other developer tools like the serverless framework does is make it so that you don't even have to understand AWS so you can leverage the power of not having to administer your own servers and also not have to understand like confirmation you know you can just kind of like few lines of code and get it done tell us a little bit of your journey you know what what have you you build with it with the server with stuff how do you get involved in it what can you do with it yeah I mean uh whenever you say how do you get involved you mean just me or just like any person out there so start with a personal oh yeah what what's your recommendation to others yeah I mean I would say there are so many tutorials available that actually start from the basics and one thing that's already started happening is service is attracting all different kinds of people so I would say just start looking online for tutorials like even I've written some that cover everything from how do you set up an AWS account in the first place - how do you put this on AWS and that sort of thing also I think a thing that's really important whenever you take on any sort of side project like this is why does it matter to you and I think for me that reason is I don't have a lot of time you know life is short and there are lots of things I do it we're just like everyone that are so mundane and so routine and I do them over and over and those are perfect candidates for automation and so anytime you have something in your life like that that you feel like you'll be really motivated to never have to do again I feel like it's a great reason to want to learn all right Andrea one of the other things you're involved with here is there's women who serve a lists event that that is happening you know later today so you know we love supporting at Silicon angle in the cube a lot of these women events you know especially here in the Bay Area but all over the place so gets a little bit of insight as to what's happening at this event yeah so I feel like you know one thing that a lot of women in the tech industry can't help but notice is that it's pretty male-dominated and I think that it makes it really important then to try and create community and try to bring more women into the space make it feel like it's really safe and fun place to be for women so I've been throwing these women who serve us happy hours and we're gonna have one tonight after serverless comp so if you're really excited if anyone wanted to come also like keep on event right because we'll be throwing more of them and I hope to see everyone there who can come alright last thing if people want to find out more about women who serve or less about I believe server luscom is the website for your company that's easy as a matter of fact yeah I think in the early days I grabbed us one of the stickers from your company just because I thought it was about serverless in general so alright you know pretty well fused together from a from a branding standpoint yeah yeah I would say that the server list calm and surrealist movement distinction is sort of a blessing and a curse on the one hand it makes it a little bit hard to talk about one or the other you can kind of get them mixed up on the other hand it's been really nice for us to be able to see like all of the excitement that's kind of come out of service and being able to educate people so all right Andrew really appreciate you joining us shit sharing your story as to have somebody you don't have to be in a hardcore a you know developer to be able to get yeah and if anyone makes an application who thought they couldn't code I would love to hear about it yeah and we also love to hear about it here on our program so of course reach out to us the cube dot that's the website I'm just apps to on Twitter always appreciate the feedback love to hear these stories about people using phenomenal technology I'm Stu Mittleman and thanks so much for watching the Q [Music]

>> From the Regency Center in San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering Serverlessconf San Francisco 2018 brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> I'm Stu Miniman and you're watching theCUBE's coverage of Serverlessconf 2018 here in San Francisco at the Regency ballroom. I'm happy to welcome back to the program Simon Wardley, who's a researcher with the Leading Edge Forum, I spoke with you last year at Serverless in New York City, and thanks for joining me again here in San Francisco. >> Absolute pleasure, nice to be back. >> Alright, so many things have changed, Simon, we talked off camera and we're not going into it, your wardrobe stays consistent >> Always. >> But, you know, technology tends to change pretty fast these days. >> Mhmm. >> You do a lot of predictions and I'm curious starting out when you think about timelines and predictions, how do you deal with the pace of change, and put things out, I have my CTOs, like well, if I put a 10 year forecast down there, I can be off on some of the twists and curves, and kind of hit closer to the mark. Give us some of your thoughts as to how you look out and think about things when we know it's changing really fast. >> Okay, okay, so there are a number of different comments in there, one about how do you do predictions, one about the speed of change, okay? So I'm going to start off with the fact that one of the things I use is maps. And maps are based on a couple of characteristics. Any map needs an anchor, in the case of the maps of business that I do, that's the user, and often the business, and often regulators. You also need movement and position in a map. So position's relative to the anchor, so a geographical map, if you've got a compass then this piece is north, south, east or west of that. In the sort of maps that I do, it's the value chain which gives you position relative to the user or the business at the top. Movement, in a geographical map you have consistency of movement, so if I go, I don't know, north from England I end up in Scotland, so you have the same thing with a business map, but that evolution is described, sorry, that movement is described by evolution. So what you have is the genesis of novel and new activities custom-build examples, products and rental services, commodity and utility services, and that's driven by supply and demand competition. Now, that evolution axis, in order to create it, you have to abolish time. So one of the problems when you look at a map is there is no easy use of time in a map. You can have a general direction and then you have to use weak signals to get an idea of when something is likely to happen. So for example if I take nuts and bolts, they took 2,000 years to go from genesis to commodity, electricity was 1,400 years from genesis to commodity, utility, computing 80 years. So, there are weak signals that you can use to identify roughly when something is going to transition, particularly between stages like product to a commodity. Product-product substitution very unpredictable, genesis of novel acts, you can usually say when stuff might appear, but not what is going to appear because in that space it's actually what we call the uncharted, the unexplored space. So, one of the problems is time is an extremely difficult thing to predict without the use of weak signals. The second thing is the pace of change. Because what happens is components evolve, and when we see them shift from product to more commodity and utility, we often see a big change in the value chains that that impacts. And you can get multiple components evolving, and they overlap, and so we feel that the pace is very very fast, despite the fact that it actually takes about 30 to 50 years to go from genesis to the point of industrialization, becoming a commodity, and then about 10 to 15 years for that to actually happen. So if you look at something like machine learning, we can start with it back in the '70s, 3D printing 1968, the Battelle Institute, all of this stuff, virtual reality back in the 1960s as well. So the problem is, one, time's very difficult. The only way to effectively manage time is to use weak signals, it's probability. The second thing is the pace of change is confusing because what we're seeing is overlapping points of industrialization like for example cloud, and what's going here with Serverless. That doesn't actually imply that things are rapidly changing because you've actually got this overlapping pattern. Does that make sense? >> Yes, it does actually. >> Perfect. >> Because you think, we have in hindsight we always think that things happen a lot faster but-- >> Yeah. >> it's funny, infrastructure space when I talk to some of the people that I came up with, they were like oh yeah, come on, we did this in mainframe decades ago. and now we're trying again, we're trying again. Things like-- >> Containers, for example, you've got LXE before that, and we had Solaris Zones before that, so it's all sort of like, interconnected together. >> Okay, so tie this into Serverless for us. >> Okay. >> You were a rather big proponent of Platform as a Service, is this a continuation of us trying to get that abstraction of the application or is it something else? What is the map we are on, and, you know, help us connect things like PaaS and Serverless and that space. >> So back in 2005, the company I ran, we mapped out our value chain, and we realized that compute was shifting from product to utility. Now that had a number of impacts. A, that shift from product to utility tends to be exponential, people have inertia due to past practice, you see a co-evolution of practice, around the changing characteristic. It's normally to do with something called MTTR, mean time to recovery changes. And so you see rapid efficiency, rapid speed of development, being able to build new sources, new areas of value. So that happened with infrastructure, and we also knew it was going to happen with platform, which is why we built something called Zymkey, which was a code execution environment, totally stateless, event-driven, utility billing, and billing to the function, and that was basically a shift of the code execution platform from a product, lamp.net stack, to a much more utility form. Now we were way too early, way too early, because the educational barriers to get people into this idea of building with functions, functional program, much more declarative environment, was really different, I mean when Amazon launched EC2 in 2006, that was a big enough shock for everybody else, and now of course, now we're in 2014, Lambda represents that shift, and the timing's much much better. Now the impact of the shift is not only efficiency and speed of development of new things, and being able to explore new sources of value, but also a change of practice, and in the past, change of practice created DevOps, this is likely to create a new type of practice. For us, we've also got inertia to change because of pre-existing systems and governance and ways of working, sunk capital, physical capital, social capital. So it's all perfectly normal. So in terms of being able to predict and far-predict these types of future, well for me, actually, Lambda's my past, because that's where we were. It's just the timing was wrong, and so when it came out, it was like for me, it was like, this is really powerful stuff and the timing is much, and we're seeing it here, it's now really starting to grow. >> Alright, you've poked a little bit at some of the container discussions going on in the industry, you know, I look at the ecosystem here, and of course AWS is the big player, but there's lots of other Serverless out there. There's discussion of Multicloud. >> Yeah. >> How does things like Kubernetes, and there was this new term canative, or cane-native project, that was just announced, and we're all, don't expect that you've dug in too deeply, but, if you look at containers and Kubernetes, and Serverless, do these combine, intersect, fight? How do you see this playing out? >> So when I look at the map, you know, you've got the code execution layer, the framework which has now become more of a utility, and that's what we call platform. The problem is, is people will application to containers, and therefore describe their environments as application-container platforms, and the platform term became really messy, basically meant everything, okay. But if we break it down into code execution, this is what we call frameworks, this is becoming utility, this is where things like Lambda is, underneath that, are all these components like operating systems, and containers, and container management, Kubernetes type systems. So if you now look at the value chain, the focus is on building applications, and those applications need functions, and then lower down the stack are all these other components. And that will tend to become less visible over time. It's a bit like your toaster. I mean, your toaster contains nuts and bolts and all sorts of things, do you care? Have you ever noticed? Have you ever broken one open and had a look? >> Only if something's not working right. >> (laughs) Only if something, maybe, a lot of people these days wouldn't even go that far, they'd just go and buy themselves a new toaster. The point is, what happens is, as layers industrialize, the lower-order systems become much less visible. So, containers, I'm a big fan of containers. I know Solomon and the stuff in Docker, and I take the view that they are an important but invisible subsystem, and the same with container management and things like containers. The focus has got to be on the code execution. Now when you talk about canative, I've go to say I was really excited with Google Next last week, with their announcements like functions going GA, I thought that was really good. >> We've been hoping that it would have happened last year. >> Yeah exactly, I wanted this before, but I'm really pleased they've got functions coming out GA. There was some really interesting stuff around SDO, and there was the GRPC stuff which is, sort of, I think a hidden gem. In terms of the canative stuff, really interesting stuff there in terms of demos, not something I've played with, I'm sort of waiting for them to come out with canative as a service, rather than, you know, having to build your own. I think there was a lot of good and interesting stuff. The only criticism I would have was the emphasis wasn't so much on basically, serverless code execution building, it was too much focused on the lower end systems, but the announcements are good. Have I played with canative? No, I've just gone along and seen it. >> So Simon, the last question I have for you is, we spoke a year ago today, what are you excited about that's matured? What are you still looking for in this space, to really make the kind of vision you've been seeing for a while become reality, and allow serverless to dominate? >> So, when you get a shift from, say, product to utility, you get this co-evolution of practice, this practice is always novel and new. It starts to emerge, and gets better over time. The area that I think we're going to see that practice is the combining of finance and development, and so when you're running your application, and your application consists of many different functions, it's being able to look at the capital flow through your application, because that gives you hints on things like what should I refactor? Refactoring's never really had financial value. By exposing the cost per function and looking at capital flow, it's suddenly does. So, what I'm really interested in is the new management practices, the new tooling around observing capital flow, monitoring, managing capital flow, refactoring around that space and building new business models. And so there's a couple of companies here with a couple of interesting tools, it's not quite there yet, but it's emerging. >> Well, Simon Wardley, really appreciate you. >> Oh, it's a delight! >> Mapping out the space a little bit, to understand where things have been going. >> Absolute pleasure! >> And thank you so much, for watching as always, theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> From the Regency Center in San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering Serverlessconf, San Francisco, 2018. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and you're watching theCUBE here at Serverlessconf, 2018 in San Francisco. Happy to welcome to the program Michael Garski, who's the director of platform engineering at Fender. Thanks so much for joining me. >> Thanks, Stu. Thanks for having me on. >> All right, so, luckily, I don't need to introduce Fender because I think most of our audience will be familiar with, you know, Fender, guitars, music, all that stuff, but we're going to talk a little bit about the tech side. >> Okay. >> Even though, let me ask, there's a question I usually ask. Most companies, you know, going through the digital transformation, lots of changes there. How does digital impact Fender? >> Digitally, Fender started a digital division in late 2015 and it was a focus on all-new digital products to complement our well-known physical products. Since then we've launched Fender Mod Shop, where a user can order a customized guitar online, have it delivered in a month. We have a single sign-on solution across all of our web and mobile applications, a guitar tuner, we have connected amplifiers, with companion apps to control amplifiers remotely. And our flagship product is Fender Play, which is an instructional app which allows the user to learn to play guitar, ukulele, and coming soon, bass. >> Love it. I'm guessing that has something to do with what you're involved with on the cloud and Serverless side to enable those technologies on the mobile side. >> Exactly. We've fully embraced AWS Lambda to support all of the services for the web and mobile applications. >> Okay, so A Cloud Guru's a training company and we've talked to them extensively as to why Serverless was a good fit for them, and enabled them to do it, but bring us through what led to your adoption of AWS Lambda, give us a little bit about what kind of technologies you were using before, and how you got to this solution. >> Well, we started out building services and go, just standard EC2 based microservices, and then we started tinkering a bit with Lambda. We had to adjust the product catalog from SAP. They could deliver a file, drop it into an S3 bucket, so it was simple enough to create a function that can process that file and ingest it into elastic search. From there, we used custom authorizers with API Gateway mapping templates to save custom tunings for users, and then as we started building for Tone and Play, Tone especially is a very limited audience. It's whoever buys the amplifiers. So we're not talking millions of people, it's going to be hundreds of thousands. So, it was a very good use case to go ahead and do that. Same thing with Play, we're starting a new business that's a great model for us, that we can just pay per usage. >> All right, so, yeah it sounds like you were using cloud and the usage model fit for what Serverless was built for, correct? >> Exactly, yes. >> All right, how much is management aware of, you know, kind of the underlying technology? Is your group, kind of just allowed free reign to kind of deal with this? Or are there anything you need to go to the CFO, and be like, well, you know our billings going to change a little bit compared to what you might have known in the past? >> It's, we pretty much have free reign. And our biggest AWS expense is actually what we pay for, in AWS Glacier for storage for the raw footage, of all the 4K footage from, instructional video shoots, and Lambda on top of that is simply a rounding error. >> Yeah, excellent. And the mobile apps that you've built, are there trials on there? Is everybody up to sign-up to be able to use it? Is it a freemium model or is it a paid model? >> The Tuner is a completely free application. There is an in-app purchase for cord and scale libraries, and some pro features of the tuner. Custom tunings are free. The Play application comes with a 30-day free trial, so user can sign up either on the web, or via the Google or Apple app stores on their mobile device. >> Okay, so, with that kind of model, I would think that Lambda would be nice. There's, you know, you said your expenses aren't that high using this kind of service. >> No, not at all, like I, in the month of June, we spent, I think it was like $132 for 68 million Lambda invocations. And to kind of put that in perspective a bit, it's what we pay for some EC2 services, EC2 instances that support our legacy authentication service, but we're also moving that over to Cognito now so we can get rid of all the EC2 instances. >> Okay, when you started using this technology, how'd you first learn about it? How'd you get up to speed on it? Tell us a little bit about kind of, training adoption. >> It was a lot of experimentation. So, we have it set up where we use one account for our QA and production environments and another account for our development environment. All the engineers on the team have free-reign to do whatever they want to in the development environment. They can spin up whatever they need to. So we just started playing around with things and experimenting. Like, let's hook up Lambda function to API Gateway, oh, this is going to work really well! And just kind of proceeded down that path. >> All right, great, and any learnings, anything that you tried playing with and said, like wow, this just isn't going to be a fit for what I need? Tell us, you know, what worked, what didn't? >> I would say about the only thing we found that really doesn't fit within Lambda and Serverless would be really very low latency applications. You're doing an auto complete for a search system. You want that snappy. It's, humans observe, I think it's about 100 milliseconds things seemed instantaneous, and that's going to be very challenging to get from API Gateway Lambda to get that consistently. >> Okay, great. And you're speaking here at the conference, how'd that end up happening, what are you looking to share with your peers? >> How it happened was I submitted a talk for a conference and then Drew from A Cloud Guru approached me and asked me to submit I had to tell him I already did, so they went ahead and approved it. And, I'm sharing what we've done and built at Fender Digital, and sort of what we found as far as tools for monitoring, performance optimization, as well as some things to really be cautious of when you're dealing with Lambda, especially with regards to concurrency controls. >> 'Kay, great and, how have you found the show so far? You were at the keynote, got about 500 people here. >> Yeah, it's really interesting. I'd really like the focus all on Serverless. You see, go to a lot of conferences, there might be one or two talks that kind of focus on that. It's nice to have something completely focused in that space. >> All right, and, you know, from a maturity standpoint, are there things that you're looking for in the roadmap from Amazon? They've been baking Serverless kind of into all of their services, so do you expect to stay on Lambda, or are there other services that kind of, you know FAZ or Serverless built into it that you might be using? >> We expect to stay on Lambda for the near term. I don't, we don't have any plans or looking at anything else like Azure or Google Cloud functions, our intention is to stay with AWS. They have a lot of other services, their new machine learning services, we use DynamoDB quite extensively, and so we're probably going to stick with them. >> Yeah, but inside Amazon, they've been expanding their Serverless portfolio as it was. >> Oh, yeah. >> And I remember, I was at the show when Lambda was announced, and then, you know it's Aurora with Serverless underneath and all those, so do you expect to adopt some of those other services that have AWS Serverless kind of baked into it as opposed to just using, kind of a Lambda tool. >> Absolutely, especially with, you just mentioned the Aurora Serverless model. That's one that we're taking a look at and evaluating as we've got some data in DynamoDB, but as requirements have shifted in the business over time it's really, it's becoming very difficult to model in DynamoDB, so we're going to kind of take a look at that, and possibly move to Aurora Serverless. >> I'm curious, how does Fender, does Fender think of the data involved? Is that something that, you mentioned AI, some of these, is that something that you'll be able to take the data and leverage that potentially even make new business revenue streams out of that in the future? >> We're doing some of that already by just watching user, analyzing user behavior so we can improve our products internally. And we're looking at adding more features to where we can really understand what people are doing, and then make our products better. >> All right. Michael, want to give you the final word. For your peers out there that might be saying hey, I've heard of Serverless, I'm kind of thinking at it, what advice would you give them? >> Just dive in, get started, don't hesitate. It's, it doesn't cost you anything, really to experiment with it. That model works very, very nice. >> Yeah, and it's one of the things that's great. It used to be you would take a lot of period of time and some big investment to be able to try a technology out or maybe you would get some demo, but Serverless is pretty easy to get started on. >> Exactly. Especially if you're using a framework like say, Serverless framework, or maybe using AWS. Excuse me, AWS's Serverless application model, it really helps as far as setting up all the resources that your function needs as well. >> All right well, Michael really appreciate you riffing with us on your deployments with Serverless and hope your peers will definitely check it out. All right, lots more coverage here from The Serverless Conference here in San Fransisco. I'm Stu Miniman, and thanks for watching theCUBE. (electronic music)