>> Narrator: From Hell's Kitchen in New York City, it's theCUBE, on the ground at Serverlessconf brought to you by SiliconAngle Media >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, here with theCUBE at Serverless Conference in New York City, Hell's Kitchen. Happy to have with me, first time guest on the program Sam Kroonenburg, we had your brother on the program at the AWS Summit not far from here, at the Javits Center in New York City, but you're also one of the co-founders its the two brothers for A Cloud Guru. Thanks so much for joining me, and thank you for allowing us to come get some phenomenal content here. >> Yeah, no problem. Thank you for coming for the conference today. >> Alright, so Sam, take me back, you know, we talked to your brother a little bit about, well it was an interesting story, he said actually I got turned down for a job from Amazon and ended up creating a training company. But you built this and you built it on Serverless. >> I did yeah. >> So walk us through a little bit the thought process, the timing, you know, aren't you a little bit ahead of your time on that? >> Yeah, it was mid 2015, it was a strange time. We decided we wanted to build this school, this online learning platform, but the challenge we had was that we didn't have a lot of time, we both had families, kids, you know, mortgages, financial commitments. Basically I had four weeks. I had four weeks of leave owing to me, from my employer at the time. My wife and I had been planning this big family holiday with the kids for years and we were about to take it, and I remember having this phone call with Ryan and we were talking about how there were these people taking these online courses and they were really liking them. And we thought, what if we could build this school to teach people cloud computing. It was such a buzz and we just thought, there's something in this. But the challenge was the timing. I remember my wife turned to me and she said, "Look you've got to do it, we'll cancel the holiday, "take the four weeks and give it a try." So that's what we did, we actually flew down to live with Aaron, my in-laws and help look after the kids and I locked myself in a bedroom for four weeks and tried to build an online school. And that was there was no epiphany to go Serverless there was no grand plan. It was, we had a constraint, which was time. I had no time to build this thing. And so ended up using some of the latest technologies like AWS Lambda, API Gateway, a whole bunch of Serverless technologies because I saw that they would help me build this faster. And I could get something to market in the four weeks that I had. I actually spent the first couple of days trying to skin and configure Moodle, the learning management system and I tore my hair out and yeah, ended up putting this thing together with Serverless technologies. >> Ryan just walked by-- >> Oh, there he is. >> It's a llama unicorn with a cat or something like that. >> I'm going to put in the background. >> In the back of our video. Sam, what's your brother doing here? >> He's always trying to troll me. >> So talk to us, you know one of the things the maturation, kind of the speed of change in the industry for new technologies is just so fast these days. Take us through from those early days to you know Serverless today. What's your experience been? What would you say to people that look at this technology? >> I think it's a lot easier to get into now than it was two years ago. The ecosystem has grown around it, the core technologies are pretty much the same as they were two years ago, function as a service, execute functions in the cloud very similar, but the tooling around it, the ecosystem around it has grown. There's great deployment tools, orchestration systems that have come along. It's a lot easier to just get in now and early on, when we started we had to roll a lot of things ourselves, which took a lot of time, and that's what you're trying to stop, is losing time. Yeah, so there's that and the community has really grown, there's a lot of support in the community now. >> So if you had to do it all over, you could have done it in a weekend, rather than the four weeks. >> Yeah, instead of the four weeks. >> Yeah, I mean what's-- >> That's the interesting thing about what happened to us, we would not exist, our business would not exist if it wasn't for Serverless technologies. I literally couldn't, we could not have, built that school. It's not like it was the most amazing school when we launched it, but it was enough. It was just enough to get people using it, to get to market, to start to build a business around it. >> Alright, talk to me about this event. So, its the 5th Serverlessconf, not unheard of a company that does training to get involved with physical events, 'cause you bring them together, you know, what's the thought process, talk to us a little bit about that journey and this event itself. >> Yeah, I mean, a lot of this is organic for us. We built, it was early last year, you know we're part of the Serverless communities, a lot of pioneering going on here, a lot of people facing the same challenges. And we thought, well there's no event to bring all of these people together. And there's a lot of very fast pace of change here, a lot of rapid ideation and new technologies. Let's bring everyone together and see what we can do. That's what we did with Serverlessconf. We've never run a conference before, we just hired a warehouse in Brooklyn, a bunch of Australians and British guys coming over and we just invited a bunch of people on Twitter and 250 people turned out to the first one. It just got bigger and bigger from there. So this is actually the 5th Serverlessconf now. >> Well, its a hot week again, so we appreciate that the air conditioning works at this one. >> Yes, we have air conditioning at this one. >> 460 people here, you brought in some great speakers, we had a number of them on our program this week, speak to us, I mean you've got sponsors here, you've got good speakers, give us some of the highlights. >> We've got all of the main Cloud vendors are here, Google, IBM, Microsoft, Amazon and it's actually the product teams who build this stuff. That's what I love about this event, it's actually the people who build it. It's vendor neutral, it's really cool. You get great thought leaders from the community, Simon Wardley was a highlight this morning, his talk on Value Chain Mapping and Strategy was really interesting. Randall Hunt from AWS X Space X, talking about the continuous integration process when building rockets. Space X was absolutely fascinating and what bugs in production mean when you're building a rocket. It means the rocket blows up. Really interesting variety of talks from those tooling providers, companies like us who are just building on Serverless and then Serverless tooling companies and vendors. Really fascinating. >> Alright, Sam what should we be looking for in the future from Serverless and from A Cloud Guru? >> We're going to be doing a whole lot more Serverless content. You're going to see a lot of really interesting new content through our site, a lot of teaching on Serverless, we're going to be doing more Serverless Conferences. You'll see a lot from us, not just us, but from the wider community who come to the conference, who we know well, a lot of the experts, we're going to be doing a lot of work with those people. >> Well Sam Kroonenburg, really appreciate you joining us, appreciate the media sponsorship to allow theCube to come get some great content and share it with our communities, hope to see you at many more events in the future. >> Thank you for coming. >> Thank you so much. Sam Kroonenburg, I'm Stu Miniman. Thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From Hell's Kitchen in New York City. It's theCUBE, on the ground, at Serverlessconf. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, here with theCUBE at Serverlessconf 2017 in New York City, Hell's Kitchen, actually, happy to welcome to the program, hard to believe, someone, as far as I can tell, we've never had on the program-- >> Yeah, I don't think so. >> But I've known for a long time, actually been drinking with him in Hell's Kitchen before, so Aneel Lakhani, thanks so much for letting me interview you. Your current position is vice president of marketing at Honeycomb.io >> Correct. >> Do you just call it Honeycomb or-- >> We just call it Honeycomb. >> Alright. So, Aneel, how are you doing? Tell us a little bit about your background, but keep it short and what gets you involved in the whole serverless ecosystem? >> Yeah, sure. So, about me, I've been in tech for a little over 20 years now, started out as an engineer, moved through a bunch of systems roles, architecture roles, and product roles, and now I run marketing at start-ups, which is what I've been doing for the last half decade or so. >> I think back to when Amazon announced Lambda, everybody's like, "Ooh, it's cool, what is it? "How do I use it?" Things like that. One of the things I've heard out of this event, this week, is tooling, monitoring, understanding, digging into it, which really falls into Honeycomb space. >> Yeah, I mean, it sort of does. I mean, at Honeycomb we do what we call observability, which is something a bit larger than just monitoring, right. It's really getting to the point where you can develop an understanding of what your services and what your code do in real life under real load with real users. >> Speaking of John Willis, about what is the role of operations when I don't own the infrastructure, I have to trust someone else to do it. So, bring us in there a little bit, what are some of the challenges people are having, how do they help when they're leveraging? >> Yeah, so something that's very clear about serverless approaches to building things, and especially if you're using something like Lambda, is that, as a software engineer, who writes a function, you are 100% responsible for all of your operations at that point, because the ops people for your stack are behind an API. You are on the other side of that API, and what they do is effectively a black box, which means you have to not only understand what your thing does, you have to understand what they do and how they do it, and it's some means of accessing both those bits of data. So you get what Amazon tells you for Lambda, or what any of the other providers tell you for their functions, but you also have to then understand how your code performs on that specific provider, which means you have to do things like wrap your functions in timers and emit events which go into Kinesis, or wherever else, so that you can track what's going on. >> Yeah, one of the problems, of course, any time you have any layer of abstraction is, if things go wrong, how do you get the expertise to know, how do you get in there, is this even worse in serverless? >> Yes and no, I mean, it depends on how much faith you have in your provider, right? So, one of the companies here put up a chart that shows you the performance, on average, of the call response time for the functions for all of the providers that provide serverless infrastructure. And they're not even remotely consistent. They're not consistent within even a few percentiles. In other words, if you care about performance, and you care about predictability for your function, it's basically impossible to get that from any given provider. >> Alright, so, talk to us, what are you hearing from users these days, what's exciting you in this space? >> Yeah, so what we hear from our users, anyway, at Honeycomb, who are using Lambda, and using serverless functions, is that the ability for them to get visibility into how a function performs is basically the highest priority outside of writing a function itself. Because they don't know what's happening below them, they don't know all the resource allocations at any given point in time by the provider, so the thing they have to go on, for the rest of the black box, is how their own function performs, which means they need the ability to take any given function and either decompose it into parts, which have their own events or metrics or telemetry that they emit, or they need to do that to the entire function from end-to-end. So basically have a concept of, this is an old concept for us, which is an end-to-end check, right? I want to know what happens when a point that I touch with a sim until my entire set of functions are complete at the end. >> Yeah, we're going back to like an IP ping, right? >> That's right, yeah, effectively. >> Today, Honeycomb, do you only support Lambda, do you support some of the other serverless frameworks that are out there? >> So, we are agnostic. So, basically, the way Honeycomb works is that our users instrument their code, and we're not service-only, it could be any code running anywhere, and they emit data, and that data is in the form of structured events, those structured events are consumed by Honeycomb, and then Honeycomb turns around and lets you do fast analysis against it. >> Yeah, you've got a lot of background of, "How do we leverage the knowledge of the crowd?" >> Yeah. >> So many times it's what are people finding when they're really getting involved here, you're tooling and others, what mistakes are they making, how can they get better, faster at what they're doing? >> Yeah, a common mistake that people make is not thinking about what is and is not blocking within their functions, and not understanding the threading model of the underlying stack, and when they should spin up additional functions and split up work, versus when they shouldn't, and the only way to understand that is, one, to read all the damn docs, and two to experiment. >> Yeah. What about the maturity of serverless? There've been a lot of discussions here. I had Mark from Trendade on, we talked about security, and the like, but what do you see, kind of in the maturation cycle, of serverless, anything you've heard, or still things that are looking to get fixed even more? >> Maturity isn't the word that I want to use here, I think it's more interesting to think of it in terms of breadth of capabilities, right? So, all of the serverless offerings for all of the vendors have limitations on either the programming languages you can use or the nature of the functions that can be run or the research allocation you can have. I think there's not a lot of maturity that we're going to see from the vendors other than more consistent performance, what we are going to see maturity in is, from the users' standpoint, of how they construct things. >> Yeah. Any data you can share is just how prevalent serverless is out there in the wild, you know, what's the typical use taste, typical customer kind of order of magnitude, how many people are doing it, and therefore driving discussions? >> Yeah, I have no idea. >> You have no idea about this. >> What I do know is, in our user base, we have some significant users of Honeycomb who are 100% run on Amazon Lambda, but that's my tiny, little sample size. >> Okay, want to give you the final word, serverless conference and serverless in general, what's your take today, what should people be looking at in the next six or 12 months? >> Yeah, so I more-or-less agree with Simon Wardley about this, which is, effectively this is a way for Amazon to eat most of the tech ecosystem, assuming people become dependent on it. >> Alright, well, I always say with theCUBE we like to take those hallway conversations, someone that I've had many hallway conversations with, and over the Twitters, and other ways, it's great to catch up with you, Aneel Lakhani, thanks so much for joining us >> Thank you so much. >> I'm Stu Miniman and thanks for watching theCUBE.

>> Narrator: From Hell's Kitchen in New York City, it's The Cube on the ground at Serverlessconf. Brought to you by SilliconANGLE Media. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman with The Cube, and we're here are Serverlessconf in Hell's Kitchen New York City, really happy to welcome to the program, another one of the keynote speakers. Ben Kehoe, who's the Cloud Robotics research scientist at iRobot. >> Yeah. >> Ben, great to see you. >> Great to see you too. >> All right, so tell us a little bit about how you got involved with Serverless. >> Yeah, I mean it all started, I was a grad student in robotics, and I started thinking about, you know, we have all these robotics algorithms. And as the cloud can enable robots to do more and better things, how do we help turn those robotics algorithms into web services. And I didn't get very far in that, right towards the end of my PHD, and then that was 2014, LAMBDA was released, and it was like hey, that looks like it does the kind of thing that I was thinking about that we needed. So then I joined iRobot, and we were developing a cloud solution, a cloud application for our connected robots and apps, and to help us scale that to stay lean. Serverless was the right choice, and we've been doing that since 2015. >> Yeah, so Ben, what is it about Serverless that made it a fit for this? You know, I think about, doesn't their responsiveness, performance, latency if I have to go >> Yeah. >> up to the cloud and back like that way. I think some of this needs to kind of live locally. And some that goes there, maybe you can just briefly tease through some of those dynamics for us. >> Yeah, when you're talking about robots, you definitely have to keep things local. You want a robot to be responsive to its environment. You want, that even if its cloud connection disappears, that it can still accomplish all of its tasks. So it's always a mix of keeping it as a timeless robot that is enabled to do better things through the cloud, in terms of additional computational power, or accessing libraries of information to help it understand its world better. And of course, when one robot learns something, all robots can benefit from that experience. >> Excellent, so this is the first step for Skynet is what you're saying, right? >> Could be. >> All right, bring us in a little bit. Your keynote, what were you looking to share? You know, some of the key points. >> Yeah, I think in the talks that I've given at Serverlessconf, they tend to be as much as I am enthusiastic about Serverless, fully bodying, I try and pull us back a little bit to say, "What are we still missing? "What's not here yet? "Where do we need to go?" And so I had some frowny face emoji in my talk about event driven programming, event driven Serverless, and Serverless without event driven programming. Now we're still, you know, we have areas to improve in each one of those. And then that transitioned really into, "How do we start bringing in people who "are just starting into Serverless?" Larger organizations, more traditional architectures, and people who are experienced with that, and understand traditional architectures well. How do we get them on board with Serverless? And so that starts with just the gateway drug, which is infrastructure automation at the edges of their application, taking scripts that they run from developer machines with Cron jobs, and moving those into a function that's triggered by some cloud event. And then from there, starting to bring them over in terms of you can reduce your costs by eliminating idle resources. You can start to simplify and strengthen by refactoring some of that. And then once you really get them thinking about, "Oh, this is really working for the things "that we're doing." New features will start to be developed. Serverless native or event driven native. And then sort of at the end of the talk, the key is that because Serverless architectures look different from traditional architectures, there's something called Conway's law that says, "The design of your application will follow "the communication patterns in your organization." >> Stu: Right. >> And so you have to sort of flip that around to say, "Well if our design is changing, then we have "to make our organization change as well." >> Right, does that mean we're going to have, micro-employees you know? Instead of micro services we have, you know, employees that we hire them, and then we fire them pretty quick when we don't need them, or? >> I hope not. >> Yeah. >> I hope not. >> (crosstalk) that that's the part time, the uber's >> Yes. >> nation of the workforce. >> Yes. That would be, I think an inefficient way of going about it. >> Yeah. >> But I think we do need to reset expectations around what we have control over, and what we don't, because when you're on a traditional architecture with servers, you can reach in and fix problems that you have. And recognizing that when you're running on functions as a service platform, and using managed services, that when the provider has some sort of incident, you're out of control of that. It's a very uncomfortable place to be of not being in control of your own destiny, even though when you look at the big picture, that's going to happen less often, then if you were doing it yourself. >> Stu: Yeah. >> And so that's making sure that the mindset inside the organization, and the way that people communicate, is appropriately tuned to that sort of new paradigm. >> Okay, yeah. Ben, some of those frowny faces, what are things that the community is working on that you're hopeful for? What are some of the areas that we need for the maturation of this space? >> Yeah, I think something that I talked about previously that's coming around, is monitoring. So there's much more tools out there to monitor the infrastructure to know what's going on inside these functions and these managed services. And there's now some security analysis tools that are coming out, that some of these people are present here. And that was a big aspect that I've harped on for a long time of... We have a lot of mature traditional tools, that will do network analysis of your servers. Well it's like, "I don't have any servers." And those vendors then say, "Well, we can't help you." And there's static code analysis vendors who say we look at your whole application, and the flows inside it. And we say, well most of my application exists outside of code that I've written. I just write little bits, that glue it together in the way that my business works. And they say, "Oh, well we can't help you." >> Yeah. It reminds me, I think you know for so many years, people were really excited about how they could build their infrastructure. >> Yeah. >> And now they look to environments, well I can get out of that. So it caught my eye. You know, you put out on twitter, said "Maybe we need to have, you know, my next talk will be, "Work dumber not harder." Maybe explain that a little bit. >> Yeah, so I think, >> Yeah. >> I've been thinking about, you know, with some of the talks here about how it's not building it yourself. That in some ways, there's not invented here syndrome. And we kind of want to go a little bit down the road of invented here syndrome, of if you're building something that is not business logic, you're probably ideally thinking, "Maybe I shouldn't be doing this." So turning it into, I don't want to have to be clever in setting up my architecture, because being clever and like writing, it's always interesting to do, right? When you're developing, you're solving a computer science problem. But often that mean you're not delivering business value. And so, in Paul Johnson's talk, he was talking about the kind of people he looks like. What the kind of people he looks for, look like. >> Yeah. >> And he was saying, you know, "It's people "who want to get stuff out the door. "And who think about good enough." And I think that's really the thing of, how do we, when the people you hire are people who just want to ship features, they're going to say, "I can pull together services to do that "without having to actually solve any hard problems." And that means that you're delivering value, and you're operating more in your business space then in a technology space." >> All right, Ben I want to give you the final word. >> Thank you. >> You know, only 460 people here, which is good growth for the show, but a lot of people out there that are still learning about Serverless, what tips do you give them? You know, first steps to get involved, get involved with the community, (mumbles) some early wins they can have? >> I think there's a couple of things. There is training out there, there's blogs. There's twitter. Ask questions. You know, ping me on twitter if you wonder about something. And there's a Serverless slack that's very active, and if you ask basically anybody, the link is floating around. >> All right, well Ben Kehoe, thanks so much. Great to meet you, and thanks for sharing in this community. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> And our community, I'm Stu Miniman and thanks for watching The Cube. (upbeat, exciting music bumper)

>> Announcer: From Hell's Kitchen in New York City, it's theCUBE, on the ground at Serverlessconf. Brought to you by Silicon Angle Media. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman with theCUBE, here at Serverless Conference in Hell's Kitchen in New York City. Happy to welcome back to the program. keynote speaker at the event, and a guest that we've had on a couple times before, John Willis, who's the vice president of DevOps and digital practices at Eastray Technologies. John. >> In Hell's Kitchen. >> Stu: In Hell's Kitchen, and go Yankees. >> Yeah, man. I was at the game last night, the other night. Yeah. You'll see tonight. Yeah. Thank you. Glad to be here. >> Great to see you. So look, you've been talking to audiences about DevOps for as long as I can remember, as long as I've known you, definitely. Tell us, what's so important about serverless and how that fits into the world of the developer these days. >> Yeah, I mean, my interest, you know, I was invited to do a keynote, and my interest is to break down the tribal nature of new things. And I sound like a hypocrite because I'm the DevOps tribe, but I prefer to stop calling it DevOps, because there are super patterns that exist, and as I watch serverless, I spend a lot of time having these conversations around that yeah, we don't need that DevOps anymore, because we got serverless. It was the same reason like we didn't need any of the infrastructure stuff because we got cloud. And like, we keep throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and my presentation this morning was like, it's not about the technology, stupid. Like the principles of business value, how you understand value stream, how you inject the governance, the policy, the security, the values and the outcomes that you want. I know those sound like platitudes, like I get a sense that we're making the same mistake over again, and hey, sorry folks, Serverless is just another form of compute. Sorry to get you all wound up and then let you down. It's just compute, folks. And so all the core principles that we've really learned about high-performance organizations apply, they apply differently. Monitoring is differently. How do we deliver? But the principles stay the same. And that was my core message today. >> Yeah, no, very passionate, definitely came through in the keynote. I just have to ask you just on the tech for a second, I mean you were heavily involved in containers, you were part of a company that got acquired by Docker, you were a big proponent of unikernels, now it's serverless, how do you kind of paint that picture >> I think it's amazing tech, and more these days. So I left Docker and I'm going back to something I did 10 years ago, which is kind of consulting but transformation type consulting. It sounds platitudish, but like, I'm back in the mode of looking at things at bigger scale. How do you change an organization to think differently about things? So I've kind of taken a little bit of my tech hat off. I mean, I love containers and minimal delivery, right, I've been yacking about that for like the last two or three years, right? About how minimal delivery models work. And serverless is like, amazing too, like unikernels was an interesting model of function as a service. I think serverless will eat up a good portion, you know I've said this, and I don't know, I may have to modify it. You know, I would say four years ago, three years ago, and you guys been a big part of this discussion. The world went to most companies would say we're a cloud-first organization. I've been saying for the last couple of years, I think most organizations should now thinking that they're a container-first organization. So that doesn't say everything, it just means, and I think the world now should be kind of still container first, and I know that might sound horrible to serverless people, but then look at serverless functions as a place where it fits in the architecture, repeatability, and containers. And there's actually kind of a.. >> Is that just from a maturity standpoint, you know, containers a little bit more mature than serverless? >> I don't know that it's, I think there are like, there are models of architecture, right, and I don't know that, I mean I know there's a lot of successful startups in certain value streams and enterprises that are all serverless. I know a couple of friends that have built complete infrastructure on Amazon Lambda. It works. I just don't know that all value stream delivery of services will go complete serverless. I'm pretty certain that today, almost all applications can run on containers. So I'm not creating a division of war. I'm just saying that I think, and I could be dead wrong on this, but I think in this future like placeholder where we're container first, it's going to be, give me an exception of why it can't be containers left, like it has to be cloud, or it has to be bare metal, or it has to be (mumbles) and the right side is about mapping reusable functionality in functions. So I think you have like a container-first world assumes that smart architecture mandates repeatable functions in a function-like world. Does that make sense? >> Yeah, it does. So I think back on my career, there's so many times we said like, oh, we've got this new way to really simplify the environment and get rid of things you don't need to worry about. You know, I lived through the whole virtualization, oh wait, networking storage took us a decade to fix that. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Containers, oh we're going to just focus on the application. Oh wait, networking really important, you worked on a whole company focused specifically on that. >> DevOps for networking, yeah. >> Serverless, the question is, what's the rule of operations when it comes to serverless? >> Again, that's my thoughts on serverless and if it ain't right that's secondary to my real passion right now, which is when I hear the word NoOps for serverless, I cringe. Like this idea that you don't... I mean it's different. Do you need observability and telemetry in a serverless world? I ask you. Of course you do. Do you need to have repeatable patterns of delivery to make sure you don't have vulnerabilities in your code? Of course you do. That's Ops folks. And it's about supply chain and building repeatable, structured delivery with all the gates and the checks and the units, and none of that I believe goes away with serverless. Just like it didn't go away with cloud, just the way it didn't go with virtualization, right? So I think you know, we make a big mistake to think serverless means we don't need operations now. Does it mean that our providers, we have a different relationship with our providers? We don't own the server anymore. So we can't run detrace or those kind of things in that environment. But we still own the service. So who's the site reliability engineer for the service that's running on Lambda? Or functions of serverless, right? If it ain't, I mean if you don't got one, like you're going to have a bad service. >> Yeah, what are you hearing organizationally, what's happening in companies that you're talking to? You know, I was a at a show recently, I think it was Kelsey Hightower I think, it was like DevOps is a given at this point. So do you see that, you know, where's the line from what you've seen? >> Well the curse and the blessing of DevOps, the curse is we've never had a clear definition of it. I say we, you know, everybody, but. And the blessing is we've never had a clear definition. Like it's always emerged. And the problem is, I will tell you what my definition of DevOps is, it has really very little to do with technology. It has to do with human capital and how you create high-performing organizations and the principles and practices that lead to that. The DevOps handbook, if you will, is a lot about, that I co-authored with Gene and Patrick and Jez. Those things, that's my definition of DevOps, but the problem is, when you hear people have discussion about DevOps in lieu of a good definition, you can't really get upset when somebody thinks DevOps is like Jenkins and Sheffer Puppet and Ansable, and like oh no, you're wrong, right, like that's their view. So the problem that you run into then is, if your definition is that it's pure technology and it's tied to kind of cloud, and it's something like infrastructure is code, then in your world and your definition, serverless is going to make all that obsolete, or a good portion obsolete. But if your definition is more about how you create patterns and practices around humans who deliver services a certain way, then nothing about serverless makes any of that obsolete. >> All right, Jon, want to give you final word. What do you think people, that you know, just hearing about serverless first time, where do they start, what kind of things should they look at, or you know, if there's other things you think they should probably look at first? >> You know, I think you're asking the wrong guy for that really. I think there's far better people that you've interviewed take care of that. I mean I would go with Peters Brook, the founder of this conference. That was a book I read, he gave me a copy, it made sense to me, I was able to do some labs and then you know, as they say, the rest, Bob's your uncle, you know, there's a ton of stuff out there to figure out how to navigate. >> Anything, any commentary you'd make on the community for here, a couple of people just you know, it's new but very vibrant, reminds me a lot of the emerging tech where, you know, a lot of help from the community, it's pretty easy to get started. >> So yeah, so in the technology, yes. A lot of vendors, a lot of good stuff, great conversations, and I was actually pleasantly surprised there was less discussion about NoOps or you don't need operations, and I got kind of a little bit of a cheer when I mentioned that this morning. So it seems like there are some good lessons learned that I think the message loud and clear is that operations still exist, it just has to be thought about. The keynote yesterday, the gentleman in the keynote yesterday said, day one, closing keynote, said serverless things are different, in some case easier, but harder in other things, and that was through a cloud. Cloud was much easier from getting infrastructure but we ran into a whole lot of operational issues around how to match this cloud to scale. So serverless is easy to create a function, get it set up, cost-effective, but we're starting to learn all of the complex operational issues of MTTR, how do you restore stuff, what does SRE look like, I mean this is why we get paid the big bucks, dammit man. >> All right, John Willis, always a pleasure to catch up with you. I'm Stu Miniman, thank you so much for watching theCUBE.

>> Narrator: From Hell's Kitchen in New York City, it's theCUBE. On the ground at Serverlessconf. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Hi I'm Stu Miniman, here with theCUBE at Serverlessconf in New York City, really excited to have on the program one of the keynote speakers and a first time guest on theCUBE, it's someone I've know through the interwebs and have read his stuff for many years, Simon Wardley who's a researcher with a leading edge firm, Simon, great to see you. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you ever so much for inviting me. It's a delight to be here. >> Alright, so my understanding is thanks to this event, you've reached a lifelong career goal. You're now a Sith Lord? (laughing) >> Well, somebody basically took a quote of mine and put it on a Star Wars poster with The Empire at the bottom, so yes, it is absolutely there you are, I am a Sith Lord, so delightful. >> The quote was that Serverless will just fundamentally change the architecture of how we build things. Something along those lines, I believe. >> Absolutely, yes. >> Alright, so let's start there. There are so many, come on, we all got really excited when containers came out. We're going to talk to John Willis >> You did. (laughing) >> We're going to talk about unikernels. The industry as a whole, there's frothiness and buzz >> Okay. >> So Serverless, you know, how's it different? How's it the same? Why's it so important from your standpoint? >> So, really good questions. So, to explain that question, we have to start off with a subject that is dear to my heart which is mapping. So when we look at the value chain of any organization, the components in that value chain are evolving and they evolve from the genesis, the novel and new to custom built examples and eventually products and rental services and then commodity and utility services. And that process is driven by supply and demand competition. It happens not only to activities, but to practice and data, but we give them different terms. They have all of the same characteristics as when they evolve. Now, when you look at that evolving environment, what you discover is there are two basic forms of disruption. There is the highly unpredictable form, which either occurs due to the appearance of something novel and new, which we don't know what it's going to impact or to product substitution. So that's the Nokia versus Apple, sort of battle, you don't know which way it's going to go until after the battle. And there is a second form of disruption, which is much more anticipatable or predictable and that is the product to utility change. So we know that when things evolve from product to utility we're going to see a rapid period of change and then there's a punctuated equilibrium. Explotion of higher order systems. We're going to see co-evolution of practice, disruption of past companies stuck behind inertia barriers. Yes it's going to be a bad efficiency, no we're not going to save any money 'cause we're just going to do more stuff with it and we're going to have all these new things as well. And we can anticipate that in advance. So when you start looking at value chains of organization, it's always the shift from product to commodity and utility which makes the big transformation in industry. And so one of them was compute. Shifting from products, as in servers, to utility as in cloud. Unfortunately dreadful term, cloud, an awful word, you know it's not a wispy thing up in the sky, it is something very specific, the shift from compute to utility. >> Would you put virtualization along that continuum? >> Okay, so virtualization was one of the underlying components, which actually helped with that happen. >> Yes. >> And so you've also got the explosion of practices around that co-evolution of practice, things like DevOps. Well, the same transition is now happening in the platform space. So, we're moving away from a product stack, things like, LAMP and .NET, to much more utility-based code execution environments. And that's what we're getting with Lambda. And we're going to see an explosion of new things built on top, inertia barriers, companies stuck behind, they'll die off, It'll be a rapid change punctuated equilibrium. You'll get all sorts of new things built. So we're going through that big transformation. Now, these transformations have been going on for about 300 years, some of them impact micro scale economics, some macro, the biggest we call ages. And that all depends upon how widespread that component is in other value chains, so when we're talking about software, we're talking about a component which is in almost all other value chains, it's shifting from product to utility, massive change, highly predictable. This is what Serverless is about. So, will it change everything? Absolutely it will. >> Alright, so Simon, I'm wondering, if you've mapped out for Serverless, where's the land of economic expection, the land of happiness and the land of despair? (laughing) >> Well, okay, happiness, despair and expectation? >> Yes. >> Okay interesting one. So the land of despair will be getting stuck behind the inertia barriers, dismissing it, saying it's not going to impact, it's not going to impact, no, no, because there's a punctuated equilibrium, it'll surprise you because it's an exponential growth, so you'll think you've got loads and loads of time and 10 years from now, you're like, be panicking, oh my gosh, it's impacting, I can't get the skills for people to help me do the transformation. My entire industry and business model is starting to disappear, so that is the land of despair that's coming to people, that's easy to defend against because most people can't see the environment. They're going to just walk straight into that one. The land of happiness. Well, obviously other than being the utility providers who'll be extremely happy about the growth of their industry, another area of happiness will be some of the novel and new things built on top. So, we're bound to see the, sort, of, one person, two person company who builds a fuction which is sold through something like the marketplace and everybody uses and they sell it for a billion. So, we'll get the two person billion dollar company and I'm sure that will make them delightfully happy. So, that's despair, happiness, also inflated expectations. So one of the big lies will be, Serverless is going to save me money in terms of reducing my IT budget. I'm afraid not. This is Jevons Paradox, this is being going on since 1865. All that's going to happen is yes, it becomes more efficient but we'll do more stuff because we're in competition so we'll spend exactly the same as we've always done, but just doing vastly more. But none the less, loads of consultants will write reports about how it will save you money and lots of people will be disappointed. >> I want to poke at that for a second. (laughing) I don't disagree with Javons Paradox when it comes to power, but example, say you know, our host for this event, A Cloud Guru. >> Yeah. >> They're priced to deliver per user is way lower than if they'd have done this the traditional way and I've heard many examples here at the show already where they've said, oh if I had built it this way, you know, it's now an order of magnitude less dollars, so. >> Let's forget order of mag, let's go many orders of magnitude. So from now to say the 1980s, for a thousand dollars, I can get a million times more compute resource than I could back then. Has my IT budget reduced a million fold during that time? And the answer is >> Yeah. >> What, my IT budget has reduced a million fold? >> No, no, no my IT budget has not reduced a million fold. >> Not at all, because we've just ended up doing vastly more stuff. >> Yeah, yeah. >> So the point is, yes. >> Budgets are always flat, yes. >> So the point is yes, we will be able to do the same things but more efficiently, but your IT budget doesn't reduce because we end up doing more things. So we're in competition, say, you and me and say you evolve, you use these environments you don't reduce your IT spending, you do more things, I'm now having to spend more and more just to try and keep up with you. So eventually I'm forced to adopt to that new world. So what happens is the individual acts become more efficient, but because we do more, we don't save anything. >> You know, want to look at kind of, maps versus strategy. >> Okay. >> I guess one of the things, if I'm talking to the typical Enterprise CIO or Board and they say, oh, well, a year ago I heard about Serverless, or today I heard about Serverless, you know, the strategy is going to change greatly because this is changing so rapidly, how do you help companies understand when things are changing so fast, how do I set a strategy for today? How long do I keep it? How often do I revisit it? >> So, if you map an environment, like all maps, they're dynamic, so you're constantly adapting and changing them as the environment is changing. So, when you look at, you have the purpose of your company, you have the landscape you're operating in, there are a number of climatic patents, about 30 of them, which impact that environment, will change it, so you need to understand those. Then there's sort of university useful patents known as doctrine, then there's game play. Now, for most organizations, because they cannot see the environment, they cannot distinguish, or may just be completely oblivious to any of this, so when they were talking about change, if I look at how things evolve from genesis, custom built product commodity, most organizations will go genesis, that's an innovation, every custom built feature differentiation of a product's an innovation, every shift in product to utility is an innovation, so all they see is innovation, innovation, innovation. And therefore, it's very easy to get sucked in to one size fits all methods work. One size innovation programs, where in fact, the genesis you would be using something like a lightweight XP, the product development, much more lean enterprise, so SCRUM and MVP and the utility is much more outsourcing or Six Sigma. So you should be using multiple techniques and multiple methods and most organizations aren't in that position. And if they're not in that position, of being able to see the environment, it's difficult to see where to attack, it's difficult to understand why here over there, it's difficult to manipulate the market. So, what happens is most organizations work on gut feel, whatever's popular in HPR and just act. And you can call that strategy if you wish. >> Alright, so I wish we could talk for another couple of hours, but want to give you the final take away >> Yes. >> Serverless today, how should people be thinking about it and what should they be looking for over the next six to 12 months in this space? >> So, the key thing about Serverless is we're seeing a shift from platform from product to utility, so you should be developing skills in that space. And we're seeing co-evolution of practice. By that, we mean there is a new set of practices combining finance and development together. What those practices are, we don't know yet. You have to experiment and explore. That's why attending events and being involved in building stuff will help you discover those practices. So today if your company, well it depends on your position, so if you're a company which is behind the game, you, say, haven't gone into infractructure as a service, you're not doing DevOps, you're own people are resistant to this change cause the other vendors say you're going to lose their jobs and blah, then rather then embarking on a five to seven year program, 'cause that's how long it will take to do that, you should move up the stack and start with Serverless and learning those practices. 'Cause no one knows them well, so you can take your people who've got inertia and re-train them in that space overcoming that inertia and give yourself a path forward. So, depends on your position, but I think most companies should be experimenting in this space. >> Alright, well Simon Wardley, it's a pleasure to catch up with you today. >> Delight. >> Hope to have you back on theCUBE at another event soon. Thank you so much for watching theCUBE.

>> Announcer: From Hell's Kitchen in New York City, it's the Cube on the ground at Serverlessconf Brought to you by SiliconAngle Media. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman with the Cube, here at Serverlessconf in Hell's Kitchen, New York City. Our first time doing the Cube here. Happy to welcome back to the program, a multi-time guest, Mark Nunnikhoven who is the Vice President of Cloud Research at Trend Micro. Mark, great to see you. >> Thanks for having me. Great to see you Stu. >> Alright, so Mark repeat after me. >> Stu and Mark: Security is everybody's responsibility. >> Yeah. >> So you did a keynote talking about security, and I love, unfortunately I didn't get to see it in person, but I feel like I was there 'cause we had the Twitter's and the commentary. >> Yeah. >> And stuff like that. So security, it's a non-issue right? Serverless it's all set, containers and everything before it, everything's secure right? >> Yeah. As you know from looking at the headlines, we do security really well in the IT community. So you can sleep well at night. We don't have to worry about anything. No, unfortunately it continues to be a challenge, and the point of the keynote yesterday was, sort of, give the state of the nation, how we're doing in the Serverless environment. And the good news is we're doing well in security for Serverless designs, but the bad news is not through any individual or purpose action. Simply by just building in these methods, we get a huge amount of security advantages. >> Yeah. >> But we can do better. >> Alright so Mark, what can we learn? It's funny, we see these repetitive things go on in the industry. It's like "Oh well, I'm just going to use Sass." "I don't need to worry about security, right?" "Oh, I'm going to go public Cloud, they'll take care of it for me." >> Yeah. >> Now containers, Serverless it feels like we have the same trope over, and over, and over again, right? >> We do, very very much so. And one of the things I called out yesterday was actually highlighting how the OWASP Top 10, which is the 10 most common vulnerabilities in web applications, have not really changed since 2010. Yet we didn't have even the concept of Serverless in 2010, but we're still making the same mistakes. SQL injection, still the top mistake that we've been making for the last decade. >> Alright, so we're talking about security. Let's step back for a second. So I believe a lot of the people watching these interviews are going to be like "Serverless, I don't get it." I love the, the Cloud Guru folks have the t-shirt, the update of the Cloud one. There is no Cloud, it's just somebody else owns the computer now. I forget the full thing. >> Somebody else's informal execution environment that last's for milliseconds, something along that. >> So what from your standpoint, you've been talking to a lot of customers >> Yeah. >> that you're speaking at this conference. You know, the what and the why of Serverless? >> Yeah, so Serverless is really that sort of, I won't say conclusion, but the logical next step of Cloud where you start to realize, when you move out of your own data center where you were doing everything, and you move into the Cloud and go, well half of the responsibility is on Amazon, or Google, or Microsoft, or whoever. And then you go, well hold on a second, why am I even managing Windows or Linux? What advantage is that to me? I make widgets, or I sell shirts or whatever. And so you move up into something like containers, and you ask the same question. Go, well why am I even running those? Serverless is that last step on the current line of going, I don't have to run any of this stuff. I can just write code that's directly tied to my business. >> Yeah, and I like how you said it's the next step. I think back to science, and it was like when we found the atom. Everybody was super excited, and then oh, there were protons and neutrons, and they were like oh my gosh, and electrons and everything. And then they're like "Oh and then there's the quark." >> Yeah. >> Everything like that. So the digger, the further down we deep, but what is the value of that? So we went from the server, to virtualized environments, to microservices, to containers. Why is that important? What's the business outcome that people are getting when they get excited and start playing with Serverless? >> For sure, so there's really two main points for me. One is that you have a direct tie between IT and the business, both from performance as well as cost. So now you can actually say that application had cost me $1.10 per transaction, and I normally make $9 on each transaction. So this is good, let's continue to invest there. So there's finally a breakdown between the separation, and you get that unity with the business and IT. And the second is accessibility. Because there's far less infrastructure and plumbing to worry about, you have people who aren't traditionally viewed as developers, more of the business analysts, starting to actually write solutions that are far more directly in line with what you want to do as a business. >> Alright, one of the things I liked seeing in the keynotes was can we do today and what can't we do today? So web applications, great, IOT, things like the Amazon Button, or the Amazon Alexa. >> Yeah. >> All leverage that. What are some of the cool applications that you've seen leveraging Serverless today? >> Yeah, so a lot of cool robots. A friend of mine, Ben Kehoe from iRobot gave a great talk on it. A lot of their stuff leverages that, and I'm a nerd, I love robots. >> Who doesn't like robots? >> Exactly, right? >> We welcome our robot overlords here at the Cube. >> Absolutely. And if they're listening, when they process this, thank you for your service. But yeah, there's a lot of great things where we're crossing out of the digital world into the real world. Because we can connect these things up with the advantage of Serverless. We don't have to build out a huge infrastructure. If you need smart lighting, if you need smart appliances, all of the IOT world, it's all Serverless. >> Yeah. So I'm going to bring up this word >> Yeah. >> That has some weight to it enterprise. >> Uh oh, let me brace. Yeah. >> So companies, we're talking, the Cloud is being used for whole businesses and everything like that. Is Serverless for, it's web, and robots, and cool toys, and everything like this. What are you seeing? What are the limitations, and does this become a predominant operating model in the future? >> Yeah, there's a lot of hesitancy in the enterprise because they're not familiar with it. >> Yeah. >> But realistically, any enterprise today should have a very simple, sort of, fall down model. When they're building something new, start at Serverless. If that doesn't meet your needs, put it in a container. If that doesn't meet your needs, build a server. Again, you want to do less work. The challenge, again, is comfort level. Serverless breaks a lot of our tooling. >> Yeah. >> So you need to learn a lot of stuff, but it's definitely where enterprises should be looking today if they want to get ahead. >> Okay, and Mark what advice do you give to companies today as they think about security across some of these various environments? >> Well you led the cheer at the start. Security is everybody's responsibility. From a security practitioners side, point of view, we've done ourselves a disservice in isolating ourselves in teams and not talking to people. We need to be educators within our organizations to help people understand what they can do. It goes all the way back to the Mythical Man-Month. It's easier to squash a bug before you ever write it, rather than when it's deployed to millions of people. Same thing for security, the earlier you're on it, the more people are looking at it, the better off you're going to be. >> Alright Mark, I want to give you the final word. Take aways, the event isn't done, but for people that aren't familiar where do they get started? Where should they dig in for Serverless? >> Yeah, there's a ton of great content here. So this is the fifth Serverless event. A lot of the old talks are up on YouTube, and Cloud Guru's done a fantastic job on pulling this community together. Check out all that stuff. The major providers, all of them are here. All of them have excellent entry level projects to help you get rolling and really that's the best way to start. Fire up the console, start building something. Why not? >> Alright Mark, really appreciate you joining. Thank for sharing with the community here, our community. Look forward to seeing you at many more events, and thank you so much for watching the Cube. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From Hell's Kitchen in New York City, it's theCUBE on the ground at Serverlessconf brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman here with theCUBE and we're at Serverlessconf in New York City in Hell's Kitchen. Happy to have on the program a first time guest, Linda Nichols, who is does Cloud Enablement Reader at Cloudreach. Linda, thanks so much for joining me. >> Thanks. >> Alright, so, it's the fifth one of these events, the first time we've been doing some interviews. I know I'm excited to be here. Tell our audience a little bit about yourself, Cloudreach and what brings you to the event. >> Sure, well, I'm at this event because I love this community. I'm really passionate about Serverless. I was at the event in Austin, I loved it, I had a great time. I submitted talks this time and they accepted mine. And I was so excited. Honestly, I would have come anyway, even if they hadn't invited me. So I work at Cloudreach, it's a company originally based in London, we have an office here in New York and we're a Cloud adoption company. So we're helping companies go from on-premises servers into the Cloud and then once they're in the Cloud, that's sort of where my team comes into play. Where we work with app-modernization, taking the software apps that are now in the cloud, and helping to break apart monoliths and modernize the apps using Serverless. >> Yeah, Linda, tell me a little bit about the community. Because you talked Cloud adoption, most companies I talk to, they're figuring out their Cloud strategy. Some of them are getting on board with containerization, coo-ver-net-tees is the latest hotness, so Serverless is still new, so tell us a little bit about that community, how long you've been a part of it and what is it that excites you so much about it? >> It's been about a year and I think as soon as I started kind of getting into it and creating apps on my own and kind of doing some things for clients, immediately the community was there. I was on Twitter, I was on Gitter, I was talking to Serverless framework people, asking questions and immediately people came back with answers. Yeah, they've really embraced me and everyone else really quickly. And I think that when new people come on the scene and they say, what is this? People in the community are like, we don't really know either, it changes every day. Every time I see a talk from someone, their definition of Serverless is different. And mine is changing, too, with every talk. >> I know we've had that discussion, kind of what is it, but what are the outcomes? What are you excited about? What's helping your users? Any proof points or roll outs or things that have- what has that game changer been? >> I think it's cheap and it's fast. Those are the two really important things, especially with a startup community. They don't have the money, they don't have the funding to really be having an entire development team. And now they can bring in one or two people and they can get something written and deployed really quickly. It's good for prototyping, non-profits, and now, for enterprises too. 'Cause now we're saying it's not just for non-profits, you can save money too. We've brought you into the cloud, you're more secure, you're saving money and now, we're going to save you more money and we're going to make your developers happy too. 'Cause they're having a great time. >> Yeah, I've been looking in the events, so far, and it seems like there's big focus on tooling, helping to understand really digging into it. Because, yes, fast, easy, let me get up, I can save some money, but, there's always the wait, but. Okay, we know we need to work on security. I need to make sure I have visibility. What have you been seeing? What are you impressed that you've seen so far? And what are some of the open things that you think the community still needs to work on? >> Well, one thing that's really interesting is you have the four Cloud platforms and they have similar products which are competing, but they still really are working together. IBM and Google are hanging out behind us, no pressure there really and they're all like, oh great, you have a new tool. That seems cool, it's like what we have. Maybe we can work on ours, make it better. So, they're kind of working together. I think the thing that, maybe, we have to work on is maybe a little bit of standardization, which I think is kind of starting to happen. Because people want to be able to use a hybrid system, or maybe they use multiple Cloud platforms and so standardizing some of the events and the services I think is going to kind of help that. >> Okay, Linda, I want to give you the last takeaway. For people that don't know about Serverless, haven't attended, and any tools or place of view, how do they get started, how do they get into the community that you love so much? >> I think, I would say, start with AWS Lambda, maybe. There's some tutorials on the site. A Cloud Guru has some great tutorials, I have to go give them a plug. And, just start building something. And once you start building, if you have a problem, reach out to the community, they'll help you. They'll answer your questions. >> Absolutely, A Cloud Guru, of course, puts on this event. Really, not only are they, they use the Serverless to be able to build their company, but dramatically, those price points, though. Less time and less money to get involved. Linda, thanks so much for joining us, really appreciate, great, great talking with you. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> Thank you so much for watching theCUBE. (electric bubbly music)