(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to the Javits in the big apple, New York City. This is theCUBE's coverage of MongoDB World 2022. We're here for a full day of coverage. We're talking to customers, partners, executives and analysts as well. Peder Ulander is here. He's the Chief Marketing Officer of MongoDB and he's joined by Radhika Krishnan, who's the Chief Product Officer at Hitachi Ventara. Folks, welcome back to theCUBE. Great to see you both again. >> Good to see you. >> Thank you David, it's good to be back again. >> Peder, first time since 2019, we've been doing a lot of these conferences and many of them, it's the first time people have been out in a physical event in three years. Amazing. >> I mean, after three years to come back here in our hometown of New York and get together with a few thousand of our favorite customers, partners, analysts, and such, to have real good discussions around where we're taking the world with regards to our developer data platform. It's been great. >> I think a big part of that story of course, is ecosystem and partnerships and Radhika, I remember I was at an event when Hitachi announced its strategy and it's name change, and really tried to understand why and the what's behind that. And of course, Hitachi's a company that looks out over the long term, and of course it has to perform tactically, but it thinks about the future. So give us the update on what's new at Hitachi Ventara, especially as it relates to data. >> Sure thing, Dave. As many, many folks might be aware, there's a very strong heritage that Hitachi has had in the data space, right. By virtue of our products and our presence in the data storage market, which dates back to many decades, right? And then on the industrial side, the parent company Hitachi has been heavily focused on the OT sector. And as you know, there is a pretty significant digital transformation underway in the OT arena, which is all being led by data. So if you look at our mission statement, for instance, it's actually engineering the data driven because we do believe that data is the fundamental platform that's going to drive that digital transformation, irrespective of what industry you're in. >> So one of the themes that you guys both talk about is modernization. I mean, you can take a cloud, I remember Alan Nance, who was at the time, he was a CIO at Philips, he said, look, you could take a cloud workload, or on-prem workload, stick it into the cloud and lift it and shift it. And in your case, you could just put it on, run it on an RDBMS, but you're not going to affect the operational models. >> Peder Ulander: It's just your mess for less, man. >> If you do that. >> It's your mess, for less. >> And so, he goes, you'll get a few, you know, you'll get a couple of zeros out of that. But if you want to have, in his case, billion dollar impact to the business, you have to modernize. So what does modernize mean to each of you? >> Maybe Peder, you can start. >> Yeah, no, I'm happy to start. I think it comes down to what's going on in the industry. I mean, we are truly moving from a world of data centers to centers of data, and these centers of data are happening further and further out along the network, all the way down to the edges. And if you look at the transformation of infrastructure or software that has enabled us to get there, we've seen apps go from monoliths to microservices. We've seen compute go from physical to serverless. We've seen networking go from old wireline copper to high powered 5G networks. They've all transformed. What's the one layer that hasn't completely transformed yet, data, right? So if we do see this world where things are getting further and further out, you've got to rethink your data architecture and how you basically support this move to modernization. And we feel that MongoDB with our partners, especially with Hitachi, we're best suited to really kind of help with this transition for our customers as they move from data centers to centers of data. >> So architecture. And at the failure, I will say this and you tell me if you agree or not. A lot of the failures of sort of the big data architectures of today are there's, everything's in this monolithic database, you've got to go through a series of hyper-specialized professionals to get to the data. If you're a business individual, you're so frustrated because the market's changing faster than you can get answers. So you guys, I know, use this concept of data fabric, people talk about data mesh. So how do you think, Radhika, about modernization in the future of data, which by its very nature is distributed? >> Yeah. So Dave, everybody talks about the hybrid cloud, right? And so the reality is, every one of our customers is having to deal with data that's straddled across on-prem as well as the public cloud and many other places as well. And so it becomes incredibly important that you have a fairly seamless framework, that's relatively low friction, that allows you to go from the capture of the data, which could be happening at the edge, could be happening at the core, any number of places, all the way to publish, right. Which is ultimately what you want to do with data because data exists to deliver insights, right? And therefore you dramatically want to minimize the friction in the process. And that is exactly what we're attempting to do with our data fabric construct, right. We're essentially saying, customers don't have to worry about, like you mentioned, they may have federated data structures, architectures, data lakes, fitting in multiple locations. How do you ensure that you're not having to double up custom code in order to drive the pipelines, in order to drive the data movement from one location to the other and so forth. And so essentially what we're providing is a mechanism whereby they can be confident about the quality of the data at the end of the day. And this is so paramount. Every customer that I talk to is most worried about ensuring that they have data that is trustworthy. >> So this is a really important point because I've always felt like, from a data quality standpoint, you know you get the data engineers who might not have any business context, trying to figure out the quality problem. If you can put the data responsibility in the hands of the business owner, who, he or she, has context, that maybe starts to solve this problem. There's some buts though. So infrastructure becomes an operational detail. Let's hide that. Don't worry about it. Figure it out, okay, so the business can run, but you need self-service infrastructure and you have to figure out how to have federated governance so that the right people can have access. So how do you guys think about that problem in the future? 'Cause it's almost like this vision creates those two challenges. Oh, by the way, you got to get your organization behind it. Right, 'cause there's an organizational construct as well. But those are, to me, wonderful opportunities but they create technology challenges. So how are you guys thinking about that and how are you working on it? >> Yeah, no, that's exactly right, Dave. As we talk to data practitioners, the recurring theme that we keep hearing is, there is just a lot of use cases that require you to have deep understanding of data and require you to have that background in data sciences and so on, such as data governance and vary for their use cases. But ultimately, the reason that data exists is to be able to drive those insights for the end customer, for the domain expert, for the end user. And therefore it becomes incredibly important that we be able to bridge that chasm that exists today between the data universe and the end customer. And that is what we essentially are focused on by virtue of leaning into capabilities like publishing, right? Like self, ad hoc reporting and things that allow citizen data scientists to be able to take advantage of the plethora of data that exists. >> Peder, I'm interested in this notion of IT and OT. Of course, Hitachi is a partner, established in both. Talk about Mongo's position in thinking. 'Cause you've got on-prem customers, you're running now across all clouds. I call it super cloud connecting all these things. But part of that is the edge. Is Mongo running there? Can Mongo run there, sort of a lightweight version? How do you see that evolve? Give us some details there. >> So I think first and foremost, we were born on-prem, obviously with the origins of MongoDB, a little over five years ago, we introduced Atlas and today we run across a hundred different availability zones around the globe, so we're pretty well covered there. The third bit that I think people miss is we also picked up a product called Realm. Realm is an embedded database for mobile devices. So if you think about car companies, Toyota, for example, building connected cars, they'll have Realm in the car for the telemetry, connects back into an Atlas system for the bigger operational side of things. So there's this seamless kind of, or consistency that runs between data center to cloud to edge to device, that MongoDB plays across all the way through. And then taking that to the next level. We talked about this before we sat down, we're also building in the security elements of that because obviously you not only have that data in rest and data in motion, but what happens when you have that data in use? And announced, I think today? We purchased a little company, Aroki, experts in encryption, some of the smartest security minds on the planet. And today we introduce query-able encryption, which basically enables developers, without any security background, to be able to build searchable capabilities into their applications to access data and do it in a way where the security rules and the privacy all remain constant, regardless of whether that developer or the end user actually knows how that works. >> This is a great example of people talk about shift left, designing security in, for the developer, right from the start, not as a bolt-on. It's a great example. >> And I'm actually going to ground that with a real life customer example, if that's okay, Dave. We actually have a utility company in North Carolina that's responsible for energy and water. And so you can imagine, I mean, you alluded to the IO to use case, the industrial use case and this particular customer has to contend with millions of sensors that are constantly streaming data back, right. And now think about the challenge that they were encountering. They had all this data streaming in and in large quantities and they were actually resident on numerous databases, right. And so they had this very real challenge of getting to that quality data that I, data quality that I talked about earlier, as well, they had this challenge of being able to consolidate all of it and make sense of it. And so that's where our partnership with MongoDB really paid off where we were able to leverage Pentaho to integrate all of the data, have that be resident on MongoDB. And now they're leveraging some of the data capabilities, the data fabric capabilities that we bring to the table to actually deliver meaningful insights to their customers. Now their customers are actually able to save on their electricity and water bills. So great success story right there. >> So I love the business impact there, and also you mentioned Pentaho, I remember that acquisition was transformative for Hitachi because it was the beginning of sort of your new vector, which became Hitachi Ventara. What is Lumada? That's, I presume the evolution of Pentaho? You brought in organic, and added capabilities on top of that, bringing in your knowledge of IOT and OT? Explain what Lumada is. >> Yeah, no, that's a great question, Dave. And I'll say this, I mentioned this early on, we fundamentally believe that data is the backbone for all digital transformation. And so to that end, Hitachi has actually been making a series of acquisitions as well as investing organically to build up these data capabilities. And so Pentaho, as you know, gives us some of that front-end capability in terms of integrations and so forth. And the Lumada platform, the umbrella brand name is really connoting everything that we do in the data space that allow customers to go through that, to derive those meaningful insights. Lumada literally stands for illuminating data. And so that's exactly what we do. Irrespective of what vertical, what use case we're talking about. As you know very well, Hitachi is very prominent in just about every vertical. We're in like 90% of the Fortune 500 customers across banking and financial, retail, telecom. And as you know very well, very, very strong in the industrial space as well. >> You know, it's interesting, Peder, you and Radhika were both talking about this sort of edge model. And so if I understand it correctly, and maybe you could bring in sort of the IOT requirements as well. You think about AI, most of the AI that's done today is modeling in the cloud. But in the future and as we're seeing this, it's real-time inferencing at the edge and it's massive amounts of data. But you're probably not, you're going to persist some, I'm hearing, probably not going to persist all of it, some of it's going to be throwaway. And then you're going to send some back to the cloud. I think of EVs or, a deer runs in front of the vehicle and they capture that, okay, send that back. The amounts of data is just massive. Is that the right way to think about this new model? Is that going to require new architectures and hearing that Mongo fits in. >> Yeah. >> Beautifully with that. >> So this is a little bit what we talked about earlier, where historically there have been three silos of data. Whether it's classic system of record, system of engagement or system of intelligence and they've each operated independently. But as applications are pushing in further and further to the edge and real time becomes more and more important, you need to be able to take all three types of workloads or models, data models and actually incorporate it into a single platform. That's the vision we have behind our developer data platform. And it enables us to handle those transactional, operational and analytical workloads in real time, right. One of the things that we announced here this week was our columnar indexing, which enables some of that step into the analytics so that we can actually do in-app analytics for those things that are not going back into the data warehouse or not going back into the cloud, real time happening with the application itself. >> As you add, this is interesting, as basically Mongo's becoming this all-in-one database, as you add those capabilities, are you able to preserve, it sounds like you've still focused on simplicity, developer product productivity. Are there trade off, as you add, does it detract from those things or are you able to architecturally preserve those? >> I think it comes down to how we're thinking through the use case and what's going to be important for the developers. So if you look at the model today, the legacy model was, let's put it all in one big monolith. We recognize that that doesn't work for everyone but the counter to that was this explosion of niche databases, right? You go to certain cloud providers, you get to choose between 15 different databases for whatever workload you want. Time series here, graph here, in-memory here. It becomes a big mess that is pushed back on the company to glue back together and figure out how to work within those systems. We're focused on really kind of embracing the document model. We obviously believe that's a great general purpose model for all types of workloads. And then focusing in on not taking a full search platform that's doing everything from log management all the way through in-app, we're optimizing for in-app experiences. We're optimizing analytics for in-app experiences. We're optimizing all of the different things we're doing for what the developer is trying to go accomplish. That helps us maintain consistency on the architectural design. It helps us maintain consistency in the model by which we're engaging with our customers. And I think it helps us innovate as quickly as we've been been able to innovate. >> Great, thank you. Radhika, we'll give you the last word. We're seeing this convergence of function in the data based, data models, but at the same time, we're seeing the distribution of data. We're not, you're clearly not fighting that, you're embracing that. What does the future look like from Hitachi Ventara's standpoint over the next half decade or even further out? >> So, we're trying to lean into what customers are trying to solve for, Dave. And so that fundamentally comes down to use cases and the approaches just may look dramatically different with every customer and every use case, right? And that's perfectly fine. We're leaning into those models, whether that is data refining on the edge or the core or the cloud. We're leaning into it. And our intent really is to ensure that we're providing that frictionless experience from end to end, right. And I'll give a couple of examples. We had this very large bank, one of the top 10 banks here in the US, that essentially had multiple data catalogs that they were using to essentially sort through their metadata and make sense of all of this data that was coming into their systems. And we were able to essentially, dramatically simplify it. Cut down on the amount of time that it takes to deliver insights to them, right. And it was like, the metric shared was 600% improvement. And so this is the kind of thing that we're manically focused on is, how do we deliver that quantifiable end-customer improvement, right? Whether it's in terms of shortening the amount to drive the insights, whether it's in terms of the number of data practitioners that they have to throw at a problem, the level of manual intervention that is required, so we're automating everything. We're trying to build in a lot of security as Peder talked about, that is a common goal for both sides. We're trying to address it through a combination of security solutions at varying ends of the spectrum. And then finally, as well, delivering that resiliency and scale that is required. Because again, the one thing we know for sure that we can take for granted is data is exploding, right? And so you need that scale, you need that resiliency. You need for customers to feel like there is high quality, it's not dirty, it's not dark and it's something that they can rely upon. >> Yeah, if it's not trusted, they're not going to use it. The interesting thing about the partnership, especially with Hitachi, is you're in so many different examples and use cases. You've got IT. You've got OT. You've got industrial and so many different examples. And if Mongo can truly fit into all those, it's just, the rocket ship's going to continue. Peder, Radhika, thank you so much for coming back in theCUBE, it's great to see you both. >> Thank you, appreciate it. >> Thank you, my pleasure. >> All right. Keep it right there. This is Dave Vellante from the Javits Center in New York City at MongoDB World 2022. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

(smart gentle music) >> Hey, welcome back everyone to theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2021 virtual. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE, got two great guests here from AWS, Bob Wise, General Manager of Kubernetes for Amazon Web Services and Peder Ulander, Head of product marketing for the enterprise developer and open-source at AWS. Gentlemen, you guys are the core leaders in the AWS open-source initiatives. Thanks for joining us on theCUBE here for Red Hat Summit. >> Thanks for having us, John. >> Good to be here. >> So the innovation that's come from people building on top of the cloud has just been amazing. You guys, props to Amazon Web Services for constantly adding more and raising the bar on more services every year. You guys do that, and now public cloud has become so popular, and so important that now Hybrid has pushed the Edge. You got outpost with Amazon you see everyone following suit. It's pretty much clear vote of confidence from the customers that, Hybrid is the operating model of the future. And that really is about the Edge. So I want to chat with you about the open-source intersection there, so let's get into it. So we're here at Red Hat Summit. So Red Hat's an open-source company and timing is great for them. Now, part of IBM you guys have had a relationship with Red Hat for some time. Can you tell us about the partnership and how it's working together? >> Yeah, absolutely. Why don't I take that one? AWS and Red Hat have been strategic partners since, shoot, I think it's 2008 or so in the early days of AWS, when engaging with customers, we wanted to ensure that AWS was the best place for enterprises to run their Red Hat workloads. And this is super important when you think about, what Red Hat has accomplished with RHEL in the enterprise, it's running SAP, it's running Oracle's, it's running all different types of core business applications, as well as a lot of the new things that customers are innovating. And so having that relationship to ensure that not only did it work on AWS, but it actually scaled we had integration of services, we had the performance, the price all of the things that were so critical to customers was critical from day one. And we continue to evolve this relationship over time. As you see us coming into Red Hat Summit this year. >> Well, again, to the hard news here also the new service Red Hat OpenShift servers on AWS known as ROSA, the A for Amazon Red Hat OpenShift, A for Amazon Web Services, a clever acronym but really it's on AWS. What exactly is this service? What does it do? And who is it designed for? >> Well, I'll let me jump in on this one. Maybe let's start with the why? Why ROSA? Customers love using OpenShift, but they also want to use AWS. They want the best of both. So they want their peanut butter and their chocolate together in a single confection. A lot of those customers have deployed AWS, have deployed OpenShift on AWS. They want managed service simplified supply chain. We want to be able to streamline moving on premises, OpenShift workloads to AWS, naturally want good integration with AWS services. So as to the, what? Our new service jointly operated is supported by Red Hat and AWS to provide a fully managed to OpenShifts on AWS. So again, like lot of customers have been running OpenShift on AWS before this time, but of course they were managing it themselves typically. And so now they get a fully managed option with also simplified supply chain. Single support channels, single billing. >> You know, were talking before we came on camera about the acronym on AWS and people build on the clouds kind of like it's no big deal to say that, but I know it means something. I want to explain, you guys to explain this on because I know I've been scolded saying things on theCUBE that were kind of misspoken because it's easy to say, Oh yeah, I built that app. We built all this stuff on theCUBE was on AWS, but it's not on AWS. It means something from a designation standpoint what does on AWS mean? 'Cause this is OpenShift servers on AWS, we see this other companies have their products on AWS. This is specific designation. Can you share, please. >> John, when you see the branding of something like Red Hat on AWS, what that basically signals to our customers is that this is joint engineering work. This is the top of the strategic partners where we actually do a lot of joint engineering and work to make sure that we're driving the right integrations and the right experience, make sure that these things are accessible and discoverable in our console. They're treated effectively as a first-class service inside of the AWS ecosystem. So it's, there's not many of the on's, if you will. You think about SAP on VMware cloud, on AWS, and now Red Hat OpenShift on AWS, it really is that signal that helps give customers the confidence of tested, tried, trued, supported and validated service on top of AWS. And we think that's significantly better than anything else. It's easy to run an image on a VM and stuffed it into a cloud service to make it available, but customers want better, customer want tighter experiences. They want to be able to take advantage of all the great things that we have from a scale availability and performance perspective. And that's really what we're pushing towards. >> Yeah. I've seen examples specifically where when partners work with Amazon at that level of joint engineering, deeper partnerships. The results were pretty significant on the business side. So congratulations to you guys working with OpenShift and Red Hat, that's real testament to their product. But I got to ask you guys, pull the Amazon playbook out and challenge you guys, or just, create a new some commentary around the process of working backwards. Every time I talked to Andy Jassy, he always says, we work backwards from the customer and we get the requirements, and we're listening to customers. Okay, great. He loves that, he loves to say that it's true. I know that I've seen that. What is the customer work backwards document look like here? What is the, what was the need and what made this become such an important part of AWS? What was the, and then what are they saying now, now that the products out there? >> Well, OpenShift has a very wide footprint as does AWS. Some working backwards documents kind of write themselves, because now the customer demand is so strong that there's just no avoiding it. Now, it really just becomes about making sure you have a good plan so it becomes much more operational at that point. ROSA's definitely one of those services. We had so much demand and as a result, no surprise that we're getting a lot of enthusiasm for customers because so many of them asked us for it. (crosstalk) >> What's been the reaction in asking demand. That's kind of got the sense of that, but okay. So there's demand now, what's the what's the use cases? What are customers saying? What's the reaction been? >> Lot of the use cases are these Hybrid kind of use cases where a customer has a big OpenShift footprint. What we see from a lot of these customers is a strong demand for consistency in order to reduce IT sprawl. What they really want to do is have the smallest number of simplest environments they can. And so when customers that standardized on OpenShift really wants to be able to standardize OpenShifts, both in their on premises environment and on AWS and get managed service options just to remove the undifferentiated heavy lifting. >> Hey, what's your take on the product marketing side of this, where you got open-source becoming very enterprise specific, Red Hat's been there for a very long time. I've been user of Red Hat since the beginning and following them, and Linux, obviously is Linux where that's come from. But what features specifically jump out in this offering that customers are resonating around? What's the vibe here? >> John, you kind of alluded to it early on, which is I don't know that I'd necessarily call it Hybrid but the reality is our customers have environments that are on premises in the cloud and all the way out to the Edge. Today, when you think of a lot of solutions and services, it's a fractured experience that they have between those three locations. And one of our biggest commitments to our customers, just to make things super simple, remove the complexity do all of the hard work, which means, customers are looking for a consistent experience environment and tooling that spans data center to cloud, to Edge. And that's probably the biggest kind of core asset here for customers who might have standardized on OpenShift in the data centers. They come to the cloud, they want to continue to leverage those skills. I think probably one of the, an interesting one is we headed down in this path, we all know Delta Airlines. Delta is a great example of a customer who, joint customer, who have been doing stuff inside of AWS for a long time. They've been standardizing on Red Hat for a long time and bringing this together just gave them that simple extension to take their investment in Red Hat OpenShift and leverage their experience. And again, the scale and performance of what AWS brings them. >> Next question, what's next for a Red Hat OpenShift on AWS in your work with Red Hat. Where does this go next? What's the big to-do item, what do you guys see as the vision? >> I'm glad you mentioned open-source collaboration at the start there. We're taking to point out is that AWS works on the Kubernetes project upstream as does the Red Hat teams. So one of the ways that we collaborate with the Red Hat team is in open-source. One of those projects is on a new project called ACK. It was on controllers for Kubernetes and this is a kind of Kubernetes friendly way for my customers to use an API to manage AWS services. So that's one of the things that we're looking forward to as that goes GA wobbling out into both ROSA and onto our other services. >> Awesome. I got to ask you guys this while you're here, because it's very rare to get two luminaries within AWS on the open-source side. This has been a huge build-out over the many, many years for AWS, and some people really kind of don't understand kind of the position. So take a minute to clarify the position of AWS on open-source. You guys are very active in a lot of projects. You mentioned upstream with Kubernetes in other areas. I've had many countries with Adrian Cockcroft on this, as well as others within AWS. Huge proponents web services, I mean, you go back to the original Amazon. I mean, Jeff Barr was saying 15 years ago some of those API's are still in play here. API's back in 15 years ago, that was kind of not main stream at that time. So you had open standards, really made Amazon web services successful and you guys are continuing it but as the modern era is very enterprise, like and you see a lot of legacy, you seeing a lot more operations that they're going to be driven by open technologies that you guys are investing in. I'll take a minute to explain what AWS is doing and what you guys care about and your mission? >> Yeah. Well, why don't I start? And then we'll kick it over to Bob 'cause I think Bob can also talk about some of the key contribution sides, but the best way to think about it is kind of in three different pillars. So let's start with the first one, which is, around the fact of ensuring that our customer's favorite open-source projects run best on AWS. Since 2006, we've been helping our customers operationalize their open-source investments and really kind of achieve that scale and focus more on how they use and innovate on the products versus how they set up and run. And for myself being an open-source since the late 90s, the biggest opportunity, yet challenge was the access to the technology, but it still required you as a customer to learn how to set up, configure, operationalized support and sustain. AWS removes that heavy lifting and, again, back to that earlier point from the beginning of AWS, we helped customers scale and implement their Apache services, their database services, all of these different types of open-source projects to make them really work exceptionally well on AWS. And back to that point, make sure that AWS was the best place for their open-source projects. I think the second thing that we do, and you're seeing that today with what we're doing with ROSA and Red Hat is we partner with open-source leaders from Red Hat to Redis and Confluent to a number of different players out there, Grafana, and Prometheus, to even foundations like the LF and the CNCF. We partner with these leaders to ensure that we're working together to grow grow the overall experience and the overall the overall pie, if you will. And this kind of gets into that point you were making John in that, the old world legacy proprietary stuff, there's a huge chance for refresh and new opportunity and rethinking or modernization if you will, as you come into the cloud having the expertise and the partnerships with these key players is as enterprises move in, is so crucial. And then the third piece I'd like to talk about that's important to our open-source strategies is really around contribution. We have a number of projects that we've delivered ourselves. I think the two most recent ones that really come top of mind for me is, what we did with Babel Fish, as well as with OpenSearch. So contributing and driving a true open-source project that helps our customers, take advantage of things like an SQL, a proprietary to open-source SQL conversion tool, or what we're doing to make Elasticsearch, the opportune or the primary open platform for our customers. But it's not just about those services, it's also collaborating with key industry initiatives. Bob's at the forefront of that with what we're doing with the CNCF around things, like Kubernetes and Prometheus et cetera, Bob you want to jump in on some of that? >> Sure, I think the one thing I would add here is that customers love using those open-source projects. The one of the challenges with them frequently is security. And this is job zero to AWS. So a lot of the collaboration work we do, a lot of the work that we do on upstream projects is go specifically around kind of security oriented things because that is what customers expect when they come to get a managed service at AWS. Some of those efforts are somewhat unsung because you generally do more work and less talk, in security oriented things. But projects across AWS, that's always a key contribution focus for us. >> Good way to call out security too. I think that's being built-in to the everything now, that's an operating model. People call it shift-left day two operations. Whatever you want to look at it. You got this nice formation going between under the hood kind of programmability of the infrastructure at scale. And then you have the modern application development which is just beginning, programmable DevSecOps. It's funny, Bob, I'd love to get your take on this because I remember in the 80s and during the Unix generation I used to peddle software under the table. Like, here's a copy of, you just don't tell anyone, people in the younger generation don't get the fact that it wasn't always open. And so now you have open and you have this idea of an enterprise that's going to be a system management system view. So you got engineering and you got computer science kind of coming together, this SRE middle layer. You're hearing that as a, kind of a new discipline. So DevOps kind of has won. I mean, we kind of knew this for many, many years. I said this in 2013 on theCUBE actually at re-inventing. I just recently shared that clip. But okay, now you've got SecOps, DevSecOps. So now you have an era where it's a system thinking and open-source is driving all of that. So can you share your perspective because this is kind of where the puck is going. It's an open to open world. That's going to have to be open and scalable. How does open-source and you guys take it to the next level to give that same scale and reliability? What's your vision? >> The key here is really around automation and what we're seeing you could look at Kubernetes. Kubernetes, is essentially a robot. It was like the early design of it was built around robotics principles. So it's a giant software robot and the world has changed. If you just look at the influx of all kinds of automation to not just the DevOps world but to all industries, you see a similar kind of trend. And so the world of IT operations person is changing from doing the work that the robot did and replacing it with the robot to managing large numbers of robots. And in this case, the robots are like a little early and a little hard to talk to. And so, you end up using languages like YAML and other things, but it turns out robots still just do what you tell them to do. And so one of the things you have to do is be really, really careful because robots will go and do whatever it is you ask them to do. On the other hand, they're really, really good at doing that. So in the security area, they take the research points to the largest single source of security issues, being people making manual mistakes. And a lot of people are still a little bit terrified if human beings aren't touching things on the way to production. In AWS, we're terrified if humans aren't touching it. And that is a super hard chasm to cross and open-source projects have really, are really playing a big role in what's really a IT wide migration to a whole new set of, not just tools, but organizational approaches. >> What's your reaction to that? Because we're talking that essentially software concepts, because if you write bad code, the code will execute what you did. So assuming it compiles left in the old days. Now, if you're going to scale a large scale operations that has dynamic capabilities, services being initiated in terminating tear down up started, you need the automation, but if you really don't design it right, you could be screwed. This is a huge deal. >> This is one reason why we've put so much effort into getops that you can think of it as a more narrowly defined subset of the DevOps world with a specific set of principles around using kind of simplified declarative approaches, along with robots that converge the desired state, converge the system to the desired state. And when you get into large distributed systems, you end up needing to take those kinds of approaches to get it to work at scale. Otherwise you have problems. >> Yeah, just adding to that. And it's funny, you said DevOps has won. I actually think DevOps has won, but DevOps hasn't changed (indistinct) Bob, you were right, the reality is it was founded back what quite a while ago, it was more around CICD in the enterprise and the closed data center. And it was one of those where automation and runbooks took addressed the fact that, every pair of hands between service requests and service delivery recreated or created an issue. So that growth and that mental model of moving from a waterfall, agile to DevOps, you built it, you run it, type of a model, I think is really, really important. But as it comes out into the cloud, you no longer have those controls of the data center and you actually have infinite scale. So back to your point of you got to get this right. You have to architect correctly you have to make sure that your code is good, you have to make sure that you have full visibility. This is where it gets really interesting at AWS. And some of the things that we're tying in. So whether we're talking about getops like what Bob just went through, or what you brought up with DevSecOps, you also have things like, AIOps. And so looking at how we take our machine learning tools to really implement the appropriate types of code reviews to assessing your infrastructure or your choices against well-architected principles and providing automated remediation is key, adding to that is observability, developers, especially in a highly distributed environment need to have better understanding, fidelity and touchpoints of what's going on with our application as it runs in production. And so what we do with regards to the work we have in observability around Grafana and Prometheus projects only accelerate that co-whole concept of continuous monitoring and continuous observability, and then kind of really, adding to that, I think it was last month, we introduce our fault injection simulator, a chaos engineering tool that, again takes advantage of all of this automation and machine learning to really help our developers, our customers operate at scale. And make sure that when they are releasing code, they're releasing code that is not just great in a small sense, it works on my laptop, but it works great in a highly distributed massively scaled environment around the globe. >> You know, this is one of the things that impresses me about Red Hat this year. And I've said this before all the covers events I've covered with them is that they get the cloud scale piece and I think their relationship with you guys shows that I think, DevOps has won, but it's the gift that keeps giving in open-source because what you have here is no longer a conversation about the cloud moving to the cloud. It's the cloud has become the operating model. So the conversation shifts to much more complicated enterprise or, and or intelligent Edge, and whether it's industrial or human or whatever, you got a data problem. So that's about a programmability issue at scale. So what's interesting is that Red Hat is on those bandwagon. It's an operating system. I mean, basically it's a distributed computing paradigm, essentially ala AWS concept as a cloud. Now it goes to the Edge, it's just distributed services via an open-source. So what's your reaction to that? >> Yeah, it's back to the original point, John where I said, any CIO is thinking about their IT environment from data center to cloud, to Edge and the more consistency automation and, kind of tools that they're at their disposal to enable them to create that kind of, I think you started to talk about an infrastructure the whole as code infrastructure's code, it's now, almost everything is code. And that starts with the operating system, obviously. And that's why this is so critical that we're partnering with companies like Red Hat on our vision and their vision, because they aligned to where our customers were ultimately going. Bob, you want to, you want to add to that? >> Bob: No, I think you said it. >> John: You guys are crushing it. Bob, one quick question for you, while I got you here. You mentioned getops, I've heard this before, I kind of understand it. Can you just quickly define from your perspective. What is getops? >> Sure, well, getops is really taking the, I said before it's a kind of narrowed version of DevOps. Sure, it's infrastructure is code. Sure, you're doing things incrementally but the getops principle, it's back to like, what are the good, what are the best practices we are managing large numbers, large numbers of robots. And in this case, it's around this idea of declarative intent. So instead of having systems that reach into production and change things, what you do is you set up the defined declared state of the system that you want and then leave the robots to constantly work to converge the state there. That seems kind of nebulous. Let me give you like a really concrete example from Kubernetes, by the way the entire Kubernetes system design is based on this. You say, I want five pods running in production and that's running my application. So what Kubernetes does is it sits there and it constantly checks, Oh, I'm supposed to have five pods. Do I have five? Well, what happens if the machine running one of those pods goes away. Now, suddenly it goes and checks and says, Oh, I'm supposed to have five pods, but there's four pods. What action do I take to now try to get the system back to the state. So you don't have a system running, reaching out and checking externally to Kubernetes, you let Kubernetes do the heavy lifting there. And so it goes through, goes through a loop of, Oh, I need to start a new pod and then it converges the system state back to running five pods. So it's really taking that kind of declarative intent combined with constant convergence loops to fully production at scale. >> That's awesome. Well, we do a whole segment on state and stateless future, but we don't have time. I do want to summarize real quick. We're here at the Red Hat Summit 2021. You got Red Hat OpenShift on AWS. The big news, Bob and Peder tell us quickly in summary, why AWS? Why Red Hat? Why better together? Give the quick overview, Bob, we'll start with you. >> Bob, you want to kick us off? >> I'm going to repeat peanut butter and chocolate. Customers love OpenShift, they love managed services. They want a simplified operations, simplified supply chain. So you get the best of both worlds. You get the OpenShift that you want fully managed on AWS, where you get all of the security and scale. Yeah, I can't add much to that. Other than saying, Red Hat is powerhouse obviously on data centers it is the operating system of the data center. Bringing together the best in the cloud, with the best in the data center is such a huge benefit to our customers. Because back to your point, John, our customers are thinking about what are they doing from data center to cloud, to Edge and bringing the best of those pieces together in a seamless solution is so, so critical. And that that's why AW. (indistinct) >> Thanks for coming on, I really appreciate it. I just want to give you guys a plug for you and being humble, but you've worked in the CNCF and standards bodies has been well, well known and I'm getting the word out. Congratulations for the commitment to open-source. Really appreciate the community. Thanks you, thank you for your time. >> Thanks, John. >> Okay, Cube coverage here, covering Red Hat Summit 2021. I'm John Ferry, host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (smart gentle music)

>> Narrator: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is theCUBE Conversation. >> Hello everyone, welcome to this special CUBE virtual coverage of AWS Summit 2020 Online. This is the 80th summit that has now moved from a physical event to a digital event, a virtual event, it's all online. Of course theCUBE, normally at the summits, are virtual as well. We have an all day program of CUBE coverage here from our Palo Alto studios with our quarantine crew. Great team, who's been sheltering in place for the past two and a half months as well as our team in Boston with Dave Vellante and Stu Miniman. theCUBE is virtual because we have to be and we are going to be continuing doing more coverage and we're going to continue to do that with all the other big events in the enterprise and emerging tech business. Stu and Dave are going to join me. >> Hey John, good to see you, thank you. >> Stu, we're going to do a segment later on more a breakdown in some of the news and highlights. We got Matt Garman coming on, who's the new vice president of sales and marketing. He ran EC2. He now reports to Andy Jassy he's run the field. We got Sanjay Poonen, the chief operating officer at VMware. Coming on as well. And then we got a customer there. We've got a slew of great guests, Swami, Dave Brown, who now runs EC2. The GM of Analytics. Stu, are you going to do a segment with Corey Quinn? Which should be fun. And Dave, of course, you can do a breaking analysis at the end of the day. And we've got a lot of other great content on theCUBE.net. Check it out. Guys let's just jump into it. AWS is really feeling all the pressure as all these cloud guys are. Everyone's working at home. The cloud is on the front stage of the world in terms of delivering capacity, compute everything else. And now they're got to run a digital event. So pretty crazy times. What you guys think?. Dave what's your thoughts? Stu. >> Do you want me to jump in there? >> Yeah. >> So really impressive watching Werner Vogels. First of all last year I saw him up on stage at the New York City summit. Of course, we've seen him on stage at re:Invent many times. But well produced really looks good. You know, challenging to have that keynote feel when you're sitting at home. But they did a nice job of editing. They put him up on it on a big white space here. But what Werner talked about is the scale of cloud. This is what they've been building for. You never know when you're going to have a Cyber Monday. And I just need to be able to scale. He talked about examples like Netflix more than doubling. How many minutes they're doing and walking through all the ways that Amazon is stepping up. You know something we've been looking at close, Dave has been digging into the analysis here. You know, public cloud is being put under the spotlight right now can they react? And Amazon, to their credit is doing a really good job have not been hearing any challenges. They're not leaving their customers behind. They're having lots of people coming and wanting more. They don't want to get people, yeah. >> I want to dig into that a little bit later on, in terms of uptime and high availability. The table stakes right now in this new virtualized world of living and working at home, competing with life is. What services stay up the most? Which ones are failing? Are the staffing levels there? Are they dealing with the remote workforce? All these things are going to impact the cloud. But ultimately, what we're talking about now is who's really leading this? Dave, you know you and I have been riffing on this around who really has the market share lead and what the numbers are. Clearly, Amazon is winning. The numbers all point that way. And some people even have Microsoft ahead of Amazon, don't know how they get there. But bottom line, Microsoft is catching up. But what is the real lead? What's the market share numbers look like? What are you finding in the research that we're doing? >> Well as you know John, we've been tracking this for a while now. And all three companies, the big three, Amazon, Google and Microsoft just reported it well. We actually have some data on this. Guys, if you can maybe share that with our audience. But we saw this last quarter. The reason why, John, that people some maybe people have Microsoft ahead is because they bundle a lot of the stuff into their intelligent cloud and includes GitHub, Azure stack, hybrid, private cloud services and. Oh, yeah, by the way, Azure. But nonetheless, they give us some clues as to what Azure looked like. So this is our estimate of infrastructure as a service and platform as a service. Both Google and Microsoft sort of hide the ball a little bit on the pure play. Amazon very cleanly provides that guidance. And so you can see here, I guess the key points are like you said, Azure and GCP are growing faster than Amazon. Amazon is much bigger. I would say though, if you go back to 2018, Amazon was well over 2x Azure. 2019 it was just kind of around 2x, you're seeing that now with the trailing twelve months. And this last quarter dipping a little bit below. So you are seeing Azure close that gap. But as I say, the numbers are fuzzy. So you have to do your best to squint through them. I look, I read 10ks till my eyes bleed. So you don't have to. >> Stu, what are you talking hearing in terms of uptime Azure had some fails, Google had some fails. But you starting to see the cloud starting to differentiate. See Google doing much more vertical focus. They're obviously going after retail. It's an easy one. Microsoft with Office 365. Doing well on the enterprise. The numbers are there. What's your thoughts on the reliability and uptime? >> Yes so, John first of all Amazon I'm not hearing any reports of issues there. As you noted, where are Microsoft and Google going after Amazon? Where they can. So retail is an obvious one. The ecosystem how well can they partner with companies? Because the fear of many companies is if I partner with Amazon, are they going to come after my business? So when I looked at the online events, John, I got a sneak peek last night of where the Asia-Pacific region. I kind of logged in as if I was from Australia or New Zealand. >> John: I did that too. >> You know, they have regional partner things set up. So, once again, Amazon, a huge global presence, doing a really good job there. And as Dave showed in the numbers while Azure and Google have much higher growth rates, if you just look at raw numbers, Amazon just adding another Google cloud like every quarter to their revenue. So it is still Amazon in the clear lead out in front. >> You know, I think it's important to point out that these clouds have different capabilities. You know, Microsoft put out a blog just very recently saying that it was going to prioritize some of the essential businesses some of the health care workers and several others that were, quote unquote, essentials. So if you're one of those essential business, they were going to sort of allocate capacity toward you. So they're clearly having some scaling issues and they're somewhat using the COVID-19 pandemic as a bit of a heat shield there. Or by the way, they're prioritizing teams as well for the work from home. So it's caveat emptor there, as I said in my breaking analysis, I mean unless you're one of those sort of priority customers and maybe even if you are, you might want to sort of be careful as to what you're actually running in Azure. At the same time you know, clearly Microsoft's doing well. It's got a lot of spending momentum for its platform. And so that's undeniable. A lot of workloads are kind of good enough. >> Yeah and I think just to put a quick plug, if you're watching this segment now, Dave will do a breaking analysis at three o'clock on our stream here. And of course, it'll be on demand on theCUBE.net as well as YouTube. Guys, I want to get your thoughts on some of the hot spots here. Usually around this time, Amazon comes out and shows a lot of GA, general availability. A lot of stuff they announce that reinvents. So, Kendra is going general availability as well as some other services. But one of the things that was interesting to me, I'll get your thoughts on it, because I held the processor in my hand. Jassi tweeted about yesterday, the new arm, EC2 M6G, which is their graviton two processor. It's like super small. This has really been the competitive Edge for Amazon's performance. The stuff that they're doing now is they're lowering the cost and increasing the performance. That's their Amazon law. That's what they do. So, you got the processor, you got analytics. You start to see these GAs. Can you squint through some of the announcements and try to get a feel for where this is going? How's this machine learning? If I'm an enterprise, I got to make some tough calls right now because I've got to double down on the products that are working that are going to get me through the pandemic. And on a growth trajectory and I've got to get rid of the people in the projects or redeploy them quickly. This is going to impact, positioning and ultimately revenues. >> I mean, I think if you look at the Edge specifically and you think about Arm, I think what Amazon's got right is they're not just throwing traditional data center boxes over the fence to the Edge and say, "Okay, here you go, data center in a box." What they're doing is they're sort of rethinking it and then realizing that you're going to have real time workloads running at the Edge, processing very, you have to be very efficient and very inexpensive. So that's where Arm fits. And I think you're going to have to be able to do the processing at the Edge. Much of the data, if not most of that data, is going to stay at the Edge. And it's not a traditional processing architecture. New architectures are going to emerge. David Florrick calls these things matrix workloads. He's written a lot about it. It's just a whole new way of thinking about computing architectures. And really the Edge is going to be driving that. >> Stu, I want to get your opinion on something. And Dave, you can weigh in too, that'd b great. You know, I was watching a little bit of the Down Under APACS stuff yesterday, Stu as well. And I saw Ben Capps, one of our friends, CUBE alumni and co-host, helps the Saudis live in New Zealand. He brought a couple of interesting things I want to get your thoughts on this. It's more of a community angle. Andy Jass, he's been with Amazon for 23 years. Ben mentioned the cloud rod he's still going back. You know, thinking about cloud was 2008 around that timeframe was only a small cast of characters talking about what was going on. And finally, he mentioned the point about Jass's keynote a Fireside Chat. He mentioned, "One way door decisions versus "two door decisions. "The former cannot be undone hence need to be thought over." So you start to see Jass. Twenty three years of experience, you get the cloud arod kind of ecosystem influencers that are out there that we all know. We've been covering this for that long of time. And you've got this notion of the two way door. You started to connect the dots here and what's going on. You start to see a maturation of AWS. But not only that, the community, the truth is out there and it's interesting to see how this plays out in terms of how they talk about the information as we're all on virtual online. Who are the experts? Who are the YouTubers trying to get a flash in the pan? What's the real story? The data, the misinformation is flying around. There's a ton of that going on, I want to see more of it with virtual. But you've got to experience set in the table with Amazon and the community, your thoughts? >> Yes, so John, absolutely it's about you need to have optionality. We know that things change really fast. 2020 key example of having to react to things that I weren't prepared for. Dave was just talking about Edge computing. What I need to succeed an Edge is very different from how I was attacking clouds before. So is Amazon a walled garden? Everything goes in, Hotel California that it was active for years? Or are they going to be flexible? You know, you see Google and Microsoft really trying to attack Amazon here. Many of us that are proponents of open source have attacked Microsoft, have attacked Amazon for years. They've hired some really good people for Adrian Cockcroft couple years ago, Peder Ulander more recently. They've even hired some people from Red Hat and the Linux Foundation. So getting involved in open source and they've been leading some of the efforts when you talked about Edge. But emerging technologies like Serverless and Edge computing. Is it the Amazon way or everything else? Or will they play in an open ecosystem? Will they allow things to be more flexible? You know, we we've talked for a bunch of years. They really softened on their hybrid stance in 2020. Will Amazon soften on their multi cloud stance, especially if you start burrowing in where Edge fits in this environment? It can't be a one way ladder to everything for public cloud. We know it needs to be a diverse environment. And therefore, you know that net community and ecosystem, you know, wants to play with Amazon but also wants a mature and competitive marketplace. We've all seen what happens when there's a monopoly or duopoly out there. It's not good for innovation. It's not good for the customers long term. >> Dave the reality of the marketplace is changing. Customers are going to be virtualize in their world, literally, physically and digitally. How the work's going to get done is to mention open source ones, probably see a revolution of new applications Cambrian explosion of new kinds of capabilities, new demands, new expectations. There's going to be favor here for the people with the steep learning curve who have those has that trajectory as Amazons, as you know, there's no compression algorithm for experience. This is a real kind of nuance point. It's kind of exposed for the next year. Who's got the juice in the marketplace? Your thoughts? >> Well, Werner Vogels today talked about he said, "There's a shift, a fundamental shift going on, "a sort of early COVID-19. "It's not just about the technology, "but it's about how we access applications, "how we build applications." And Amazon is clearly making some bets and betting on data. We know that. And they are also betting on video because they know that's where a lot of the data comes from. When you talk about who's got experience, I mean, clearly Amazon is seeing a huge demand for video services and we're seeing a giant disruption in content distribution networks. And Amazon, I think, is at the heart of that. So, I mean, it's you know, it's interesting to see him doubling down on that, talking about the whole workflow. So I think in terms of experience, obviously at Amazon, they're going to, that's one of their clear sweet spots. But there are obviously other. >> You know, I've heard the term reinvent many times in the past couple of months, especially during the COVID crisis. And it wasn't in context to the Amazon show. There's a real reinvention going on in the marketplace, in enterprises, in small, medium sized enterprises to every business they have to rethink and reinvent what they're doing to get a growth trajectory. And traditionally, we look at these crisis of 2008. Companies that came out on the upswing became a real master master class, examples of growth and a lot of people who weren't prepared, flatline or dropped off. So we are in this point. Even theCUBE we're are digital, we're virtual. We're rethinking it. We're open to new ideas. There's going to be an experimentation phase at the same time, how do you leverage what's out there? This is going to be an opportunity for the cloud, guys. How do you guys react to all that? >> Well, the last downturn was good for cloud, and still you we've talked about how this one certainly is shaping up to be a tailwind as well for cloud. Cloud is doing better than others. I think Gartner put out a stat today they've seen like a 5x increase in inquiries around cloud. Not surprising companies that previously wouldn't even think about cloud now they really have no choice. >> Guys, we've got to cut it there, we've got to go to Cocky. We had all day with theCUBE. CUBE Virtual AWS Summit Online. Check out they got a big portal. It's complicated. Is a lot of a lot of education going on there. It's the classic Emison Summit. We've got great interviews. Guys we've got a great interview coming up next with Matt Garman, who's the new senior vice president or vice president of sales and marketing. He runs all the field, public sector, both of those areas under massive growth opportunities. So, we're going to hear from him. Thanks for coming on, guys. Really appreciate it. Good to celebrate as well in Boston.. And thanks for the insight. So, we'll be right back with more CUBE coverage after the short break. And Matt Garman up next. (upbeat music)