>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum World 2019. Brought to you by VM Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to two cubes. Live coverage in San Francisco, California for VM World 2019. I'm John Ferrier, Postal Cuba David Lattin, My Coast, Dave. 10 years covering the BM World Paul Maritz laid out the stack early on. We saw that and watch it go through Its motions now >> remain from the marketing people got a hold of >> that mainframe turned into cloud Now hybrid cloud seven years after we first started about 2012 has been great Our next guest, Paul Falsone, S V. P and general manager of the Cloud Native APS. This is a business unit within VM where that is going to the next level. This is the Act three is Jerry Chen said any of you I talked earlier for VM wears a company. I won't say moving up the staff because there is no stack. It's cloud, right? So its applications on top of operating infrastructure Dev ops going enterprise scale is about developers building APS operating them in scale. This is a big focus of what you're doing. >> It is a dead end of the day. One of my close friend of mine, who's in front of customers all the time, reminds our team constantly that our customers applications matter of the most cause. That's what they used to get in front of their customers with the Dillman teams and the tools they're building the user. Japs come second cause that's what supports the abs. And then the infrastructure comes third zone away. There is that stacks it, but never forget you were at the bottom of the pecking order, if you will, when it comes to ultimately bringing full customer value to our company, our customers, businesses. >> And it's one of the things we've been looking back at our 10 years covering VM where I think you're 13 15 of'em world is that the virtual ization of all very quickly around really optimizing server virtualization really kind of change. The game of one kind of knows that our knows the history there, but it did it without any code changes, too, APs and I think that was a very innovative thing. Now we looking containers and what Kubernetes is bringing to the table. You're starting to get some clear visibility into what's happening and what's possible. Could >> you >> share your vision on what that visibility is that you guys are eyeing for the marketplace in four of'em, where, >> sure, the APP development methodologies are changing, changing more today than they have in the last 20 years. We're seeing ah lot of new concepts and approaches that right now really only accessible to a small percentage of application developers worldwide. We want to try to bring those application development methodologies, practices tools to the mainstream so we can. We can touch the 13 or $14 million.1,000,000 enterprise developers around the world and help the CEOs in their line of business counterparts at our customers get a CZ much productivity out of their development teams as possible. At the end of the day, those APS we're gonna power the next decade of those organizations success or failures with their customers, and so that's becoming a real competitive asset. I've had a number of customer discussions here this week where the primary theme is how me help my developers move faster at enterprise scale, but in a regulated environment in an environment where compliance is is front center >> to big things going on in your world that we covered extensively, honestly, pretty impactful to the Vienna, where portfolio one as open source and hefty oh, acquisition half a billion dollars almost a year ago, about a year left in less than a year, probably was that we close in December last year. So yes, ovary. Just recently we know those guys all people. I mean, I've been covering that for a while, and then I'll see the pivotal acquisition. Just announced a drink from the fire hose. There be doing tons of press briefings, those to impact points, kind of leaving a mark. >> So we've been we've been building up to this. I joined AA Drink them were in 2012 through the Sierra acquisition, but I moved into this role about just about three years ago, and one of the things that we identified early on was, ah, close partnership with Pivotal was going to be essential inside of the Del Technologies umbrella for us to exist in thrive together. And so that's where the idea for P Cass was born. So the combination of V. M. R. R and D with pivotal RND focused on delivering our first community service to our enterprise. Customers we brought helped you in last year. Once they saw what we were doing and thought about the possibility of what would happen if we actually took some of the concepts of communities and p ks and embed them into V sphere, That was, I think, the real ah ha moment for for us and the happier team coming together in the power of what that could enable. But all along the way, we always believed that that was just covering the infrastructure side of the equation. You still needed to get through the making the APP developers productive and efficient in this new infrastructure world and so on to be able to do so on any cloud. And that's where the pivotal piece finally came together last just last month. July Pivotal put out a lot of information in the market around how they're evolving their portfolio to be very cool, bernetti centric, moving forward. And that was a big part about getting all the pieces lined up so that the M word could deliver what we announced this week. The in the town's a portfolio with the component tree for building running in managing modern applications on any club, >> we've kind of come full circle here, predates, and I Sarah, But you guys talking about the stack? Yeah. Paul Moretz. I used to have the whole stack. Ed actually applications up here with Simba. Spring sources around. Exactly. And then you had these when I used to call the misfit toys. Have you had some assets in the M. C as coming in Vienna, where Paul Maritz, Joe Tucci decided, create pivotal as the The platform developed next generation applications. Now it's all come full circle there. So my question is related to that stack and particularly the death part of that stack. This audience is not Deb's not, but increasingly, you've gotta attract that audience. So what's what's your thoughts there? And so >> I think pivotals done a very nice job over the years through the Con Foundry Foundation. The work they've done there through the spring community Spring is at this stage is is arguably the most popular modern Java development environment on the planet. So, you know, we're seeing a tremendous amount of leverage of that of that framework and so between the events of pimples is actively involved in Leeds and their ability to help customers, um teach their enterprise developers how to get the most out of this modern tool kit. We think that there is some wonderful ingredients to a recipe to really scale this thing up in a big way. We way. I also believe that Veum we're still has a lot to learn about what it means to best support enterprise developers and their organizations. And so we are quite a bit in learning mode right now. We're gonna take a lot of lessons from the pivotal team as we as we move forward towards the close and learn a lot more about the team in the culture and their customer engagements. But one of the things I think is is front and center to what pivotal has for customers today is their transformation Service's customers. You've got different groups inside a customer summer looking to build the newest applications. Some of them are just trying to get more operational efficiency out of what they have today. Some of these customers have 12,000 applications in their environments. Um, pivotal has ah set of service is that come in and they help them take their existing monolithic applications and just modernize key components of them so they can operate them more efficiently and reclaim a lot of resources to go do other things. That, I think is probably the lowest hanging fruit for enterprise organizations today. And I'm very, very excited about the service is that pimple has to make available the customers on that front. >> Assad and Jerry Chen, earlier than the other set I was mentioning earlier is a VC now, Greylock, big time to your one. We see former VM Where, uh, guy from 22,003. He also worked on cloud foundries in sight. We ask about the white spaces where starts to thrive in one of the transit is kind of pointing to was have some cummings going public. Some are being bought at sizable numbers, but we rift on. The idea of monitoring was a boring category right now. Observe ability, which is just be monitoring 2.0, you got I pose. You got acquisitions. I mean, major action happening in this observe ability space. I bring this up because that's an area you think, Oh, it's a white space Data opportunities for companies to build service is really points to this cloud. 2.0 application Renaissance And I want to get your thoughts on that environment. What needs to be in place to make that happen? Honestly, pivotals keep for you guys. I get that on Vienna. Where side, but for the ecosystem and for the marketplace, people trying to make careers and or do things What is that cloud 2.0, complexity that need to be abstracted away or >> so The Pepto team had a great Craig and Joe had this great, uh, one liner on kubernetes is all about where the people structure meets the infrastructure. When you think about that, our enterprise organizations have thousands if not tens of thousands of developers all trying to do similar. But a lot of cases different things at the same time, across lots of different cloud infrastructures. On the infrastructure team side, you've got private cloud, you've got hybrid cloud. You've got public cloud environments that you have to get your arms around, monitor, manage, secure and get visibility into. We believe that Carini sits at that perfect layer between the two domains on. This is a big part of why we developed Tom's a mission control. It's just that that perfect layer between the two domains, too, access the company's later and give you full visibility into what all of your developers were doing on every piece of your infrastructure. And we also think that's gonna be a very interesting place for third parties to plug into to gain access to all of the community's clusters that we're helping. Our customers managed across their app landscape to do very interesting things. And so we're really excited about the ecosystem that that project will open up. >> You think this opportunity to start ups in there? >> I do. I do. I think there's a ton of other I mean, think about it just really basic math. Ah, VM based application. When it gets containerized, it has just on the compute side alone. Never mind the networking in the storage site. There are 10 times as many moving parts. A typical containerized EPA's 10 times as many moving parts as avian bay Step. If you think about that applied to the networking layer, you think about that applied to the storage layer, the security layer. You've got 10 times as many points to secure. Now, how do you get your head around that level of complexity As a an operations person, you can't do it. Humans can't do it anywhere. You can't write down your actions. Control this on a pad of paper and know what's what's accessing what anymore, >> Dave. One more question, if I may, on the on the VM container thing, there's a debate or are architectural kind of conversation, and customers are having around when to do containers in three days on bare metal or with V EMS. How do you guys talk to that house? The >> steam going because that was my question. So there was a snarky tweets yesterday. I want to get your reaction to it. And the tweet was during yesterday's keynote. I thought we we launched pivotal so that we didn't have to run containers on V EMS. Now the reality to your point is that people are running containers on bare metal. They're running him on vehement the EMS. I don't have any data, but I wonder if you could comment on that >> so way Probably have a couple of snarky comments of our own on this three share one of the things that put up on stage. Yes, I'll start at the kind of a little little. And I worked my way up at the base layer. The testing we're doing with Project Pacific, which is something we announced this week, which is effectively bringing kubernetes into the heart of the sphere. We're actually using combinations to make the sphere better. We're also going to expose communities to our customers through V sphere, just like we exposed the EMS today. This is a pretty exciting project for the for the company in our early testing of this project, based on the advanced scheduling capabilities of the SX hyper visor take advantage of modern hardware. We're seeing an 8% better performance in a certain test sweet versus what you'd see on bare metal so are ready at the early stages. We're seeing some benefits now take that a step further. The big public college for writers out there if you look at service is like G K on Google. If you look at a ks, uh, recast on Amazon, a cast on his door, every single one of their community service is is run against a virtualized environment, not on a bare metal environment. Why is that? Well, because their customers are using containers in VM, side by side, the flexibility you get out of that virtualization layer. Whether you're a big public cloud provider or your ah smaller enterprise shop running your own data centers, the benefits are proportionate, rather equal on dso >> the narratives off a little bit. What you're saying. What I hear you saying is people use virtualization for a lot of efficiency and scale reasons that's independent of what happens with bearnaise decisions. So if you decide you want to run Cubans on bare metal, go >> to go to town. We think >> if you want to do that, >> you want to do that. But we don't. We actually see a lot of customers who have started down that path. When they go to get to that operational stage, they're realizing they're now dealing with firm where again, they're dealing with Nick drivers again. They're dealing with stuff, and they can easily take that and turn it over to their ops team that's already managing a huge virtualized state and operated with the same tool. >> That's a really a layer thing around round scale. You do the virtual ization for Ryan reasons, and then cos sits on top of it for a whole another reason. >> And the I'd say its operations scale these operations teams need to, you know, just look at the number of announcements we made this week. For an ops team to get their head around all of these new technologies simultaneously is impossible to bring them in one new capability of time into the thing that they're already operating for. That organization is very >> positive. If I understood yesterday, you're claiming better before 8% better performance relative to bare metal. I know that's apples to apples. Or what kind of juicing you're doing on the benchmark >> sex schedule that it chooses it right there. >> I want to ask you about integration and look at it as a quasi. His story of the the industry. You go back to see A with all the acquisitions, right? Historical force it with fusion. Different layer of the stack. I know. Certainly Del did a lot of acquisitions. Some of them work. Some of them didn t m c. Same thing pretty successful. Actually. VM were great engineering. Um, very strong. Go to market on really good acquisitions. My question is on integration with the nice Sarah background, I wonder. I mean, nice. Sarah seems to be very well integrated into the VM. Where platform How is integration The state of integration today within V. M. Where is it a lot easier today because we're living in this AP I economy. What about VM? Wears sort of integration ethos. One of the challenges. I wonder if you could comment and that long. So >> I've been through, uh, to significant integrations of'em where the 1st 1 was with this nice era on. I was on the I was on the incoming side, not the receiving side. The next was with hep Theo. I was on the receiving side, not the incoming side. And so, as coming into this year, back in 2012 Pat was extremely supportive and asked his entire team to be very supportive of getting us integrated quickly and productive. A CZ fastest possible. We were on campus on the via more campus from the next era office within days of the deal closing. That's how efficient Veum work. That's like that's the mindset hammerhead coming into. We were in a building. We were co located with the other networking engineers and product managers. Within the first week on, we were off to the races. That was about 100 20 person company. Hep Ko is about 100% company, Um, about the same efficiency we were consolidating. Offices were bringing them over again, mostly distributed team, but they had a center of gravity. In Seattle. We had a center of gravity in Bellevue. We brought the team's over within within a couple of months in about three months. In three and 1/2 months in, we had the team fully integrated. The organizational design done all the tools in a greater we're all in the same systems. So what happens very quickly now, an organization that's much bigger like like pivotal 3000 employees. Public company takes a little bit longer to get from Deal announced the deal close because it's too public entities. It'll take a little bit longer to do all the integration, but we're already thinking thinking about we know them so well and they know us so well. We already know where the potential landmines are, where the potential rough spots are. Pat prides himself and, uh, this pushes down into the rest of them were on well, welcoming new team members in new groups into the company. And so we try to do that really were very culturally sensitive way optimized for the right tool kit s O that we take, we take some learning like cloud health. When they came in, they had a lot of expertise around. SAS drooling and support of customers were adopting all of that, right. Were jettisoned some of our older tools in favor of some of the things that >> we're gonna win the modernization. So I want to get your thoughts on the last question for the second congratulations, your your your area. We love what you're doing. We think it's super important. Would be covering it like a blanket this year and going forward. But Pakistan came on was wrapped. Talking about 10 years and doing the riffing on the Cube are 10 years covering it. We have some 10 years forward, which waves to be on. They highlighted on the past 10 years in this ear acquisition as a critical moment to bring VM. We're into the S T D C kind of concept started networking up, so we know the history they're sti n and then going forward, he says. If you're not a networking and security in the next wave and Kubernetes is Number one, you're really gonna be missing out. So we highlighted networking, security and kubernetes. But networking. It's nice here on both sides of that 10 year spectrum. You're part of that. >> Why is that? Why is that wise >> watching people know that networking is the most important piece of the wave here? What's the relevance of what he's saying? Share their thoughts on >> Think about the increasing complexity of what at modernization drives into the infrastructure. You're getting smaller and smaller moving parts that that need to operate together at scale in a comprehensive, logical way. But at any point in time, if you're if you're an enterprise organization, if you've got if you've got compliance requirements, audit ability, requirements. If you want to protect, you hear about the number of of small towns that get blackmailed on a daily basis because someone's secured an encrypted There, there, there count taxpayer data and they're there, their victims. All right, this is this >> is some say, cyber warfare. >> It is something. So if you think about in orderto help, our customers get the most out of their developers, these tools that open up I think the potential of a lot more avenues of attack get a lot more complex. And so we think that these two have to progress hand in hand. One. We do want to help developers go as fast as possible. We won't help enterprises get the most out of those developers. That's a big part of why we brought them were into into the damn warfare. We're bringing a pivotal into the VM. We're family, but at the same time, we recognize that the infrastructure has to progress. Every bit is fast, and the network is the thing that ties all these parts together. Whether it's a layer three year layer for networking today or level layer several networking layer seven AP I based networking in the future >> all. I mean, I'm not gonna bring up I ot or industrial i ot to takeovers of physical devices, whether it's a self driving bus off a cliff or taking over towns and cities warfare, I mean the service areas of enormous networks, Internet connectivity applications over the cloud native. Anyway, we know that, right? So a lot to talk about. Thanks for coming on. The Cube Sharing your insight. Senior Vice President, General manager, The Cloud Native APS Group. This is really the key instrument with envy em where to take kubernetes and the advancement of cloud to 0.0 to the next level. I'm John for a day. Volante, be back after this short break.

>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage, It's the Cube! Covering VM World 2019 Brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners >> Hello everyone and welcome to the Cube's coverage here in San Francisco, California of the VMWorld 2019. I'm John Furrier with my cohost Dave Vellante Dave, 10 years covering VMWorld since 2010, it's been quite a ride, lot of changes. >> Dave: Sure has. >> John: We're going to do a Power Panel our format we normally do it remote guests in our Palo Alto and Boston studios in person because we're here. Why not do it? Of course, Keith Townsend, CTO Advisor friend of the Cube, Cube host sometimes and Sarbjeet Johal, cloud architect cloud expert, friends on Twitter. We're always jammin' on Twitter. So we'll have to take it to the video. Guys, thanks for joining us on the Power Panel. >> Good to see you, Gents. >> Good seein' ya. >> Good to be here. >> Yeah, I, I hope we don't come to blows, Sarbjeet. I mean we've had some passionate conversations over the past couple months. >> Yeah, Santoro, yes, yes. >> John: The activity has been at an all time high. I mean, snark aside, there's real things to talk about. >> Yes. >> I mean we are talking about VMware a software company, staying with their roots. We know what happened in 2016 The Amazon relationship cleared the air so to speak, pun intended. Vcloud air kind of goes it's way stock prices go up and to the right Yeah, fluctuations happening but still financially doing well. >> Keith: Yeah. >> Customers have clarity. They're an operate. They run, they target operators not developers. We're living in a DevOps world we talk about this all the time dev and ops this is the cloud world that they want Michael Dell was on the Cube Dell Technologies owns VMware they put Pivotal on VMware moves are being made. Keith, how do you make sense of it? What's your take? You've been on the inside. >> Well, you know, VMware has a tough time. Pat came in, 2013, we remember it. He said we are going to double down on virtualization. He is literally paying the cost for that hockey stick movement VMware has had this reputation of being an operator based company Infrastructure based, you go into accounts, you're stuck in this IT Infrastructure cells movement. VMware has done awesome over the past year. Few years, I had to eat a little crow and say that the move to eject Pivotal was the right thing for the Stock but for the reputation, VMware is stuck so Pat, what, tallied up 5 billion dollars in sales, in purchases last week to get out of this motion of being stuck in the IT Infrastructure realm Will it pay off? I think it's going to be a good conversation because they're going to need those Pivotal guys to push this PKS vision of theirs. This PKS and Kubernetes vision that they have >> Well they got to figure it out but certainly it's a software world and one of the things that's interesting we were talking before we started is, they are stuck in that operator world but it's part of DevOps, Dev and Ops. This is the world that they operate in Google's cloud shows how to do it. You got SRE's run things and developers this program infrastructure is code. This is the promise of this new generation. Sarbjeet, we talk about it all the time on Twitter developers coding away not dealing with the infrastructure, that's the goal >> Yeah, traditionally, developers never sort of mucked around with infrastructure. Gradually we are moving into where developers have to take care of infrastructure themselves the teams are like two person teams we hear that all the time. They are responsible for running the show from beginning to the end. Operations are under them, it's Dev and Ops are put together, right? But I'll speak from my own personal experience with working at VMware in the past that from all the companies which are operations focused, that's HP, IBM, and Oracle to a certain extent. So portfolio and all that. And BMC, and CA, those are pure companies in the operations space, right? I think VMware is one of those which values software a lot. So it's a purely, inside the VMware it's purely software driven. But to the outside, what they produce what they have produced in the past that's all operations, right? So I think they can move that switch because of the culture and then with Pivotal acquisition I think it will make it much easier because there's some following of the Pivotal stack, if you will the only caveat I think on that side is it is kind of a little bit of interlocking-ish, right? That is one of the fears I have. >> Who's not, even RedHat these days is, locking you in. >> Yeah, you know, I pulled some interesting stat metadata from a blog post from Paul Fazzone announcing the Pivotal acquisition. He mentioned Kubernetes 22 times. He mentioned Pivotal Cloud Foundry once. So VMware is all in on this open-shift type movement I think VMware is looking at the Red shift I mean Red OpenShift acquisition by IBM and thinking, "Man, I wish we didn't have this "Sense of relationship with Pivotal "So we could have went out and bought RedHat." >> Well that's a good point about Kubernetes, I think you're right on that. And remember, we've been covering Open Stack up until about a year ago, and they changed the name it's now something else, but I remember when Open Shift wasn't doing well. >> Keith: I do too! >> And what really was a tipping point for them was they had all the elements, but it was Kubernetes that really put them in a position to take advantage of what they were trying to do and I think you're right, I think VMware sees that, now that IBM owns RedHat and Open Shift, it's clear. But I think the vSphere deal with Project Pacific points out that they want to use Kubernetes as a distraction layer for developers, and have a developer interface to vSphere. So they get the operators with vSphere, they put Kubernetes in there and they say, "Hey developers, use us." Now I think that's a hedge also against Pivotal 'cause if that horse doesn't come across the track to the finish line, you know... >> It's definitely a hedge on Containers just a finer point of what you were saying there was a slight difference in the cash outlay for RedHat, 34 billion versus the cash outlay for Pivotal was 800 million. So they picked up an 800 million dollar asset or a 4 billion dollar asset for 2.7 billion. >> Hold on, explain that because 2.7 billion was the number we reported you're saying that VMware put out only 800 million in cash, which, what's that mean? >> That's correct. So they put out 800 million in cash to the existing shareholders of Pivotal, which is a minority of the shareholders. Michael Dell owns 70% of it, VMware owns 15% of it. So they take the public shareholders get the 800 million >> John: They get taken out, yep. >> Michael Dell gets more VMware stock, so now he owns more of VMware. VMware already owns 15% of Pivotal, so for 800 million, they get Pivotal. >> So, the VMware independent shareholders get... they get diluted. >> Right. >> Did they lose out in the deal is the question and I think the thing that most people are missing in this conversation is that Pivotal has a army of developers. Regardless of whether developers focus on PCF or Kubernetes is irrelevant. VMware has a army, a services army now that they can point towards the industry and say, "We have the chops to have "The conversation around why you should "Come to us for developing." >> So I want to come back to that but just, a good question is, Do the VMware shareholders get screwed? Near term, the stock drops, right? Which is what happens, right? Pivotal was up 77% on the day that the Dow dropped 800 points. Here's where I think it makes sense, and there are some external risks. Pivotal plus Carbon Black, the combination they shelled out 2.7 billion in cash. They're going to add a billion dollars to VMware's subscription business next year. VMware trades at 5x revenue multiple, so the shareholders will, in theory, get back 5 billion. In year two, it's going to be 3 billion that they're going to add to the subscription revenue so in theory, that's 15 billion of value added. I think that goes into the thinking, so, now, are people going to flock to VMware? Are Kubernetes developers going to flock to VMware? I mean to your point, that to me, that's the value of Pivotal is they can get VMware into the developer community. 'Cause where is VMware with developers? Nobody, no developers in this audience. >> That's true. >> What are your guys' thoughts on that? >> Yeah, I think that we have to dissect the workload of applications at the enterprise level, right? There are a variety of applications, right, from SAPs Oracles of the world those are two heavyweights in the application space. And then there's a long trail of ISVs, right. And then there's homegrown applications I think where Pivotal plays a big role is the homegrown applications. When you're shipping a lot as an ISV or within your enterprise, you're writing software you're shipping applications to the user base. It could be internal for partners, for customers, right, I think that's where Pivotal plays Pivotal is pivotal, if you will. >> I think that's a good bet too, one of the things we've been pulling the CESoEs data for when we got reinforced we started pulling CESoEs in our network, and it's interesting. They're under the gun to produce security solutions and manage the vendors and do all that stuff they're all telling us, the majority of them are telling us that they're building their own stacks internally to handle the crisis and the challenge of security, which I think's a leading indicator versus the kind of slow, slower CIO which LOVES multi-anything. Multi-vendor, control, a deal with contracts CESoEs, they don't have the DOGMA because they can't have the DOGMA. They got to deliver and they're saying, "We're going to build a stack "On one cloud. "Have a backup cloud, "I want all my developer resources "On this cloud, not fork my team "And I'm going to build a stack "And then I'm going to ship APIs "And say to my suppliers, in the RFP process, "If you support these APIs, "You could do business with us." >> Keith: So, if you don't -- >> That's kind of a cutting edge. If you don't, you can't, you can't. And that's the new normal. We're seeing it with the Jedi deal with Oracle not getting, playing 'cause they're not certified at the level that Amazon is, and you're going to start to see these new requirements emerging this is a huge point. I think that's where Pivotal could really shine not being the, quote, developer channel for VMware. I think it's more of really writing apps >> And John, I think people aren't even going to question that model. Capital One is probably the poster child for that model they actually went out and acquired a start-up, a security, a container security start up, integrated them into their operations and they still failed. Security in the cloud is hard. I think we'll get into a multi-cloud discussion this is one of the reasons why I'm not a big fan of multi-cloud from an architecture perspective, but from a practical challenge, security is one of the number one challenges. >> That's a great point on Capital One in fact, that's a great example. In fact, I love to argue this point. On Twitter, I was heavily arguing this point which is, yeah, they had a breach. But that was a very low-level it's like the equivalent of a S3 bucket not being configured, right? I mean it was so trivial of a problem but still, it takes one whole-- (hearty laughing) One, one entry point for malware to get in. One entry point to get into any network where it's IOT This is the huge challenge. So the question there is, automation. Do you do the, so, again, these are the, that's a solvable problem with Capital One. What we don't know is, what has Capital One done that we don't know that they've solved? So, again, I look at that breech as pretty, obviously, major, but it was a freakin' misconfigured firewall. >> So, come back to your comments on multi-cloud. I'm inferring from what you said, and I'd love to get your opinion, Sarbjeet. That multi-cloud is not an architectural strategy. I've said this. It's kind of a symptom of multiple vendors playing but so, can multi-cloud become, because certainly VMware IBM RedHat, Google with Anthos, maybe a little bit less Microsoft but those three-- >> Dell Technologies. >> Cisco, Cisco and certainly Dell all talking about multi-cloud is the clear strategy that's where CIOs are going, you're not buying it. Will it ever become a clear strategy from an architectural standpoint? >> Multi-cloud is the NSX and I don't mean NSX in VMware NSX it's the Acura NSX of enterprise IT. The idea of owning the NSX is great it brings me into the showroom, but I am going to buy, I'm going to go over to the Honda side or I'm going to go buy the MDX or something more reasonable. Multi-cloud, the idea, sure it's possible. It's possible for me to own a NSX sports car. But it's more practical for me to be able to shop around I can go to Google via cloud simple I mean I can go via cloud simple to Azure, GCP or I can go BMC, I have options to where I land, but to say that I am going to operate across all three? That's the NSX. >> If you had a NSX sports car, by the way, to use the analogy in my mind is great one, the roads aren't open yet. So, yeah, okay great. (hearty laughing) >> Or you go to Germany and you're in California. So, the transport, and again in the applications you could build tech for good applications all you want, and they're talking about tech for good here but if it's insecure, those apps are going to create more entry points. Again, for cyber threats, for malware, so again, the security equation, and you're right is super important, and they don't have it. >> Dave: What's your thought on all (mumble)? >> Sarbjeet: I think on multi-cloud you are, when you are going to use multi-cloud you going to expand the threat surface if you will 'cause you're putting stuff at different places. But I don't think it, like as you said Dave, the multi-cloud is not more of an architectural choice, it's more like a risk mitigation strategy from the vendor point of view. Like, Amazon, who they don't compete with or who they won't compete with in the future we don't know, right? So... >> You mean within the industry. >> Yeah, within the industry right-- >> Autos or healthcare or... >> Sarbjeet: Yeah, they will, they are talking about that, right? So if you put all, all sort of all your bets on that or Azure, let's say even Azure, right? They are not in that kind of category, but still if you go with one vendor, and that's mission critical and something happens like government breaks them up or they go under, sideways, whatever, right? And then your business is stuck with them and another thing is that the whole US business, if you think about it at a global scale, like where US stands and all that stuff and even global companies are using these hourglass providers based in US, these companies are becoming like they're becoming too big to fail, right? If you put everything on one company, right, and then something happens will we bail them out? Right, will the government bail them out? Like stuff like that. Like banks became too big to fail, I think. I think from that point of view, bigger companies will shift to multi-cloud for, to hedge, right, >> Risk Mitigation >> Risk mitigation. >> Yeah, that's, okay, that's fair. >> I mean, I believe in multi-cloud in one definition only. I think, for now, the nirvana of having different workload management across utility bases, that's fantasy. >> Keith: Yeah, that's fantasy. >> I think you could probably engineer it, but there might not be a workload for that or maybe data analytics I could see moving around as a use case, certainly, but I think-- >> D-R! >> The reality is, is that all companies will probably have multiple clouds, clearly like, if you're going to run Office 365, and it's going to be on Azure, you're an Azure customer, okay. You have Azure cloud. If you're building your security stack on Amazon, and got a development team, you're on Amazon. You got two clouds. You add Google in there, big tables, great for certain things you know, Big Query, you got Google. You might even have Alibaba if you're operating in China So, again, you going to have multiple clouds the question is, the workloads define cloud selection. So, I've been on this thing, if you got a workload, an app, that app should choose its best infrastructure possible that maximizes what the outcome is. >> And John, I think what people fail to realize, that users, when you give them a set of tools, they're going to do what users do, which is, be productive. Just like users went out and took credit cards swiped it and got Amazon. If you, if in your environment you have Amazon you have GCP, you have Azure, you have Salesforce, O-365, and a user has access to all five platforms, whether or not you built a multi-cloud application a user's going to find a way to get their work done with all five, and you're going to have multi-cloud fallout because users will build data sets and workloads across that, even if IT isn't the one that designed it. >> All right, guys, final question of the Power Panel Dave, I want to include this for you too, and I'll weigh in as well. Take a minute to share what you're thinking right now is on the industry. What's taking up your attention? What's dominating your Twittershpere right now? What's the bee in your bonnet? What's the hot-button issue that you're kicking the tires on, learning about, or promoting? Sarbjeet, we'll start with you. What's on top of the mind for you these days? >> I think with talk about multi-cloud all the time, that's in discussions all the time and then Blockchain is another like slow-moving train, if you will, I think it's arriving now, and we will see some solutions coming down the pike from different, like a platformization of the Blockchain, if you will, that's happening, I think those are two actually things I keep my eyes on and how developers going to move, which side to take and then how the AWSs dominance is challenged by Microsoft and Google there's one thing I usually talk about on Twittersphere, is that there's a data gravity and there's a scales gravity, right? So people who are getting trained on Amazon, they will tend to stay with them 'cause that's, at the end of the day, it's people using technology, right? So, moving from one to another is a challenge. Whoever throws in a lot of education at the developers and operators, they will win. >> Keith, what are you gettin' excited about? >> So, CTO advisor has this theory about the data framework, or data infrastructure. Multi-cloud is the conversation about workloads going here, there, irrelevant, it's all about the data. How do I have a consistent data policy? A data protection policy, data management policy across SAS, O-365, Sales Force Workday, my IAF providers, my PATH providers, and OMPRIM, how do I move that data and make sure another data management backup company won Best of VMWorld this year. This is like the third or fourth year and a reason it's not because of backup. It's because CIOs, CDOs are concerned about this data challenge, and as much as we want to talk about multi-cloud, I think well, the industry will discover the problem isn't in Kubernetes the solution isn't in Kubernetes it's going to be one of these cool start-ups or one of these legacy vendors such as NetAp, Dell, EMC that solves that data management layer. >> All right, great stuff. My hot button is cloud 2.0 as everyone knows, I think there's new requirements that are coming out, and what got my attention is this enterprise action of VMware, the CIA deal at Amazon, the Jedi deal show that there are new requirements that our customers are driving that the vendors don't have, and that's a function that cloud providers are going to provide, and I think that's that's the canary in the coal mine. >> I've got to chime in. I've got to chime in. Sorry, Lenard, but it's the combination what excites me is the combination of data plus machine intelligence and cloud scale. A new scenario of disruption moving beyond a remote set of cloud services to a ubiquitous set of digital services powered by data that are going to disrupt every industry. That's what I get excited about. >> Guys, great Power Panel. We'll pick this up online. We'll actually get the Power Panels working out of our Palo Alto studio. If you haven't seen the Power Panels, check them out. Search Power Panels the Cube on Google, you'll see the videos. We talk about an issue, we get experts it's an editorial product. You'll see more of that online. More coverage here at VMWorld 2019 after this short break. (lively techno music)