(bright, peppy music) >> Announcer: From Chicago, it's theCUBE. Covering Veritas Vision Solution Day 2018. Brought to you by Veritas. >> Hello everyone, welcome to Chicago. We're here covering the Veritas Solution Day. Veritas, last year, had the Veritas Vision Conference and they brought together all their customers. This year they decided to go around the world, I think they have six or seven of these across the globe. And we just were in New York a few weeks ago at Tavern on the Green. We're here at the Palmer House in Chicago. Iconic hotel. About 60 to 70 customers here. Of course Chicago's a big opportunity for companies like Veritas because there's such a good customer base here. But what I want to do now is set up what's going on in the data protection business. According to a number of sources, Gartner, IDC Data, other survey data, certainly anecdotally when we talk to customers, about half of the customers that we talk to are going to replace their data protection platform within the next five years. Why is that? Well, there are a number of factors that are affecting that and I want to talk about the reasons why, the implications to the market, and what that means for customers. So if you look back 10 years ago, there was a similar dynamic going on catalyzed by the ascendancy of virtualization. What was happening is that you had all these servers that were underutilized and so the brilliance of virtualization was we're going to consolidate those servers, virtualize the compute power, dramatically increase the utilization and reduce the physical capacity that's on the floor. So you can get rid of stuff. Get rid of servers, spend less, and get more value out of that asset. Because you had all these underutilized hardware assets. Data protection backup in particular was the one workload that actually could use all that compute power. Why, because at the end of the day, you're backing up this huge stream of data. And so as a result, when you had to do a full backup, you didn't have the physical resources. So people had to rethink how they architected backup because of virtualization. So you now have a similar dynamic, but for different reasons. Some of the big trends that are going on here. The first one is of course digital. So digital means data and it's all about how you get value out of your data because data is increasingly an important asset. People are realizing that protecting that data is more and more important. As a result, people are rethinking just the definition of recovery. Recovery has to be faster, you've got to be always on in this digital world. So digital transformation is critical. You can't just bolt on backup as you have for the last 20, 30, 40 years really. Backup has been a bolt on. You've also got cloud. Everybody wants cloud-like. So you're seeing a shift from improving or dealing with resource utilization and allocation, as I explained in the virtualization world, now to automation. Why automation? Because people want a cloud-like experience. They realize they can't just shove all their data into the public cloud. There's data all over the place, and I'll talk about that in a moment in terms of distributed data, but specifically people want a cloud-like experience. What does that mean? That means they want pay-as-you-go, they want simple deployment, they want fast seamless recovery, and they want a lot of automation. While the price of technology comes down year after year, the price of people doesn't. And you can't just keep throwing people at the infrastructure problem, because it's so complex, you have to automate. And you want to shift resources toward higher value activities. Digital transformation, dev opps, application development. So this distributed data world, this multi-cloud world, and I'll talk a little bit more about that in a moment when I discuss the Edge, it's becoming a forcing function. Multi-cloud is a forcing function to rethink your backup. Because you've got different infrastructures, a service providers, you've got SAS providers, you've got all kinds of clouds that are popping up all over the lines of business and within your own data centers. As a result, you need to think about how do I catalog all that data, how do I protect that data, how do I govern that data, how do I deal with things like GDPR and make sure that I'm in compliance. So it becomes a much more complicated equation, and the variables are distinct. For example, I don't really understand what point in time means anymore. If you have distributed data, what does it mean to have a point in time copy? Point in what time? Who's the master? So you need some kind of controls in that multi-cloud world. That's a forcing function to rethink your backup. The other thing is platform. Platform beats products. I'll talk about that in a moment. People for years have looked at backup as purely insurance. Everybody hates buying insurance, we all know that, so you're seeing people trying to get more out of their backup and recovery platforms. For instance, integrating disaster recovery. So that's becoming an integral part of people's strategies. You're also seeing analytics becoming more and more important. People are trying to, because all the data sits in the corpus of the backup, people are saying why don't we analyze that data and get more out of it. Why don't we take snapshots of that data and make it available to dev opps. And what about ransomware, which again I'll talk about in a moment. Could I maybe look at anomalies in that data to determine if there are some problems. Many, many use cases emerging. Data classification, governance, I mentioned GDPR before, so you're seeing backup shift from pure insurance to a higher value business opportunity. And then of course, there's security, there's compliance, there's governance, ransomware is critical. Organizations are creating air gaps, meaning disconnecting from the internet, so that if they get hit with a ransomware attack they can isolate their data, but just even that is not enough. People can get through air gaps by physically putting in, whatever. Sticks or malware et cetera. So you still have to be able to use analytics to look at that corpus of backup data and identify anomalies. But again, because of those security risks and because of the importance of digital transformation and data people are rethinking how they do data protection. And finally, there's the Edge. We are living in a distributed world, it's a multi-cloud world, as I said before it's a forcing function, and the Edge is one of those clouds, if you will, which changes the way in which you think about backup. How does it change. Locality of the recovery data. If you've got Edge data, if you've got multi-cloud, you've, as I said before, got to have a global catalog and recover that data locally. Another thing to think about is SLAs. In a cloud world, you, the customer, are responsible for the recovery. Well, the cloud vendor can get the light back on on the disc system, or the computer, or the compute system, you are responsible for the people and the process to recover your business. That is not the cloud vendor's responsibility so you need to think about that. And think about recovery as recovery at the business level, not just recovery of the data, but recovery, getting your business back online. There's also the three laws of the cloud. We learned this from Pat Gelsinger this August at VMworld. The laws of physics, the laws of economics, and the law of the land. Those will dictate where you put data and how you back up that data. So all of this has created a new landscape in the data protection business. Let's run down that landscape. Who are the leaders. You've got Dell EMC, you've got Veritas, you've got Convault, and you've got IBM. Those guys comprise probably 2/3 or more of the marketplace. And you have startups like Cohesity and Rubrik who have raised hundreds of millions of dollars going after them and challenging them. You've got a whole new set of players that are taking new approaches. Actifio, for example, got the whole copy data management thing going. Datrium is creating end to end, both primary storage and data protection backup in the same platform with a software-based cloud-like, SAS-like offering. You've got companies like Zerto and Imanis Data that are specialists. You've got companies like WANdisco, again, taking new approaches. And then you have Oracle, with the Oracle recovery appliance, which is totally changing the way in which backup worked for Oracle databases exclusively. Taking a database-led approach to backup. And then of course you've got the storage players that are part of the ecosystem even though they're not directly competing with backup software vendors. Guys like Pure, NetApp, InfiniteApp. They're partnering with backup vendors. And then of course, there's the cloud guys. AWS, Azure, Google. The thing to think about as customers, really three things. Platform versus product. What's the platform look like? Is it an API-based platform? Because you want to program to that platform infrastructurer's code, you want to support your dev opps infrastructure. The second is cloud-like pricing, and cloud-like deployment. You want a cloud-based operating model to simplify your operations and lower your IT labor costs and shift those costs to more strategic efforts and initiatives such as digital transformation and application development. And the third is ecosystem alignment. Make sure that your backup software vendor and you backup solution vendors are all, their ecosystem is aligned with your ecosystem. Because you're going to get more facile integration and problem-solving and flexibility if those systems align. So take a look at that as well. Couple of things I want to mention and emphasize. New application development models. Cloud Native, Kubernetes. Function, you know people call it server-less, but function-based programming. Really to support dev opps and infrastructure as a code. That is going to have implications on how you protect data. And finally AI. How can you talk about anything today without talking about AI. Anticipatory staging of data for recovery, as in the example. Predicting where problems are going to occur. Machine intelligence will increasingly play a role in this whole landscape. So, as you can see, there's a lot going on. This is why data protection is such a hot space. That's why the VCs are getting in. It's why the incumbents like Veritas, Dell EMC, IBM, Convault, those that I mentioned are trying to re-platform and hang on to their large install bases and ultimately grow them. And it's why companies in the startup and the niche spaces, are tucking in and identifying new opportunities to participate. So that's a quick overview of what's going on here at the Veritas Vision Solution Day from Chicago. We'll be here all day talking to customers, talking to practitioners, technologists, and executives. So keep it right there, you're watching theCUBE. I'm Dave Vellante. Be right back. (bright music)

>> Narrator: From Chicago, it's theCUBE. Covering Veritas Vision Solution Day, 2018. Brought to you by Veritas. >> Welcome back to Chicago everybody, you're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Vellante, we're here covering the Veritas Vision Solution Day. Veritas last year had a big tent event thay thousands and thousands of customers. They decided this year to go out to the customers. Like us, we go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise. Jeff Kroth is here, he's the manager of data management and analytics at Softchoice, which is a Veritas partner. Welcome to theCube, thanks for coming on, Jeff. >> Thanks for having me. >> So tell me more about Softchoice, what's your sort of niche and differentiation in the market? >> Sure, so Softchoice is about a two billion dollar North American IT Solution proivder, we're actually the number three Global Midmarket Managed Service provider. We provide the breadth and coverage across a variety of vendors, helping our customers modernize their IT infrastructure. >> So Midmarket is unique, you know, it's not big enough to have like thousands of people do it, data protection for example, they're Generalists, typically, IT Generalists, they're not small, not like the CEO doing the back up. So talk a little bit about the unique aspects of Midmarket from your perspective. >> Well I think some of the things that we bring to the bare Midmarker is helping customers who don't have that deep IT staff with our technology mentorship, with our skills transfer that we provide our customers, we have a managed service that we provide which really helps our customers do more with what they have. >> So data protection is one of the hottest topics going here at VMworld in August, and for the last two years it's been probably one of the hottest topics. That along with Cloud and obviously the AWS partnership with VMWare. Why is data protection so hot right now? What are the factors? >> I would say data protection and data management is hot. It actually comes back to the underlying data behind it, they say, Gardener says data is the new gold and the new natural resource. Well if you don't have your data protected, available, and modernized, you can't leverage things like data analytics to get the most out of your data. Our customers, we see, customers use data as a competitive advantage. Go back look at Blockbuster and Netflix, they weren't able to take advantage of their data and understand that, so really to me data protection is the foundation and building block to grow into an analytics environment where you're really taking advantage of the underlying data for that competitive advantage. >> And I want to do a little tangent here, cause when you hear things like, "data is the new oil, its the new gold," it's actually, in our view, even more valuable, and here's why. Oil, you can put a quart of oil in your car or in your house, but you can't put the same quart in both. Data, using the Netflix example, you can use the same data in a variety of different ways. So in some regards, it's even more valuable. So I guess the bottom line here is digital transformation, which is real, is all about how you use data and that has direct implications on how you protect data, doesn't it? >> It does. >> And so, the other thing is Cloud. You hear a lot of talk about Cloud, and Multicloud, and we're moving into this world of more distributed data. What kind of challenges does that present for customers? >> I mean we are a big Microsoft partner and have a big partnership with Azure, you know, helping our customers on that Cloud journey I think is an important part. One of the things and one of the trends that we're finding is ensuring that you're monerizing your current data platform as you do that data migration to the Cloud. One of the things we see is customers really struggle with cost containment as they make that Cloud migration. So being able to understand what the data is and ensuring that you're only moving the right amount of data and the right workloads to the Cloud to keep costs down, I think is one of the important things, one of the things we're helping our customers, making sure they're getting real value out of the Cloud and doing that cost containment. >> We heard this morning Joe T was talking about some Cloud repatriation and you definitely are seeing it he gave an example of a large company in Dubai who said, "we're going all in on Cloud," and they went all in on Cloud and said, "wow, this is really expensive." Make sense, right? Renting is often times more expensive than owning. So I look at that as, you know, those that have had to repatriate, a lot of that is poor planning so how do you help your customers plan which work loads should be in the Cloud and follow those laws of economics, and physics, and governance, you know the law of the land, how do you help them? >> So it's really a couple of things, we have a couple of assessments that we use to help customers understand their existing workloads and what makes sense to move to the Cloud and what makes sense to keep on premise. So that's an assessment that Softchoice offers. The other thing is aligning to Veritas's 360 data management strategy is really getting a deeper understanding of what that data is that you have so you're aligning the right costs associated with that data to decide what you move to the Cloud and what stays on prem and I think that's a big thing, it's really understanding what that data is and aligning it to what needs to be moved. >> We talked to senior leaders in IT and business, they tell us that if you got to move to the Cloud you really want to change the operating model, that's where you're going to get the biggest bang for the buck. What does that mean in terms of data protection? If you're going to go digital, go Cloud, change your operating model, that's going to have implications on data protection, isn't it? And what do you see as the-- >> It is, and what I think we're seeing in Softchoice as a whole, you know we are a big proponent of the Cloud, what I think we see that, you really don't think that customers are going to go fully Cloud. It's really taking that hybrid approach and aligning what applications make sense to go to the Cloud, what applications make sense to stay on prem. So really having that full view of your environment so you can make intelligent decisions on what to move to the Cloud and what to keep on prem, aligning to the usage of that data. >> Now what about your partnership with Veritas? You kind of exclusive Veritas, you work with other back up vendors? Maybe talk about that a little bit and then what do you see as Veritas's strengths and what's on their to-do list? >> Yeah, so we're a Veritas Gold Partner both in the US and in Canada. We're not an exclusive to Veritas, we like to take a very agnostic approach and really help customers understand what their environment looks like and what makes sense for them. Veritas is a key player as part of our data management strategy and going down the road of our analytics strategy, helping customers really understand the value of their data. You can't get into the analytics world unless your data is in the right place so, again we like to take an agnostic approach but Veritas does align very well from a data management strategy for Softchoice. >> Why, why is that? Is that their stack, they've just been around longer, they focus a lot on governance, and I heard things like categorization, throwing out Federal rules of civil procedure today, that's a long history, so why, what's so special? >> I would say it's the overall breadth of their portfolio, it's helping customers back up to Cloud, back up for the Cloud, it's helping customers do things like DR and replication. It's really getting that full 360 view, you know one of the things we're big on is things like Infomap and Data Insights and really helping customers really understand what the underlying data is, associating the cost with that, so as they move workloads to the Cloud they get a full understanding of what they're moving so they're just not blindly moving things to the Cloud, helping keep costs down. Again, when customers, like as in the example we saw earlier today, a lot of customers think that Cloud is a logical strategy for them but over time they see that it increases cost. So it's really about aligning the right sizing of your environment, moving the right applications, the right data to the Cloud and using that as part of your overall strategy. We really see customers really taking a hybrid approach, it's not ever going to be fully public Cloud, it's not going to be fully private Cloud, it's going to be a combination. >> So we're going to ask you about the competitive landscape cause you are sort of Switzerland here, even though got an affinity, it seems, to Veritas, but you've seen a lot of VC money move into the space, you're seeing a lot of specialists emerge, you've seen some startups come after the Incumbents like Veritas, certainly you know Commvault's another, IBM's another, of course DELL EMC, add those guys up they probably have three quarters on the market place so of course the startups are going to come after them. And they're got shiny new toys and probably developing in Cloud Native and probably talking all the right language. But how do you squint through the hype from the marketing side and sort of help customers figure out how they're going to have the greatest business impact? >> I mean I think that's a good point. I think we're seeing a lot of small niche players that are born in the Cloud or have this shiny new marketing collatoral that they're going to market with and I think what's important for us is making sure our customers understand a full road map on what they're trying to do. So, we do see a lot of upstarts that are going after some of the Veritas, the IBM, the DELL EMC businesses, the world. But it's really making sure you're not taking a point solution and trying to go forward with that, it's understanding Portfolio, like Veritas's that has that depth and breadth and really has that history and background. You know, Veritas has been doing this forever and they really know their stuff. >> Yeah, so we've stressed that platforms are important to pay attention to, you know an API based platform is going to beat a product every time and have some legs. It might be it might have other implications in terms of complexities, but it can drive your business forward as opposed to your point, being a point product. And I'm curious as to your thoughts, particularly as it relates to analytics, which is in your title. For years people have looked at back up as just insurance, people that are trying to get more out of it. But how are people using the corpus of back up data and analytics use cases, why the affinity between data protection and analytics? >> I think data protection and data management are kind of clumped into one category. If you don't have a modernized IT infrastructure and you don't have a good data management strategy, it's impossible, you know poor data in, poor data out. You can't make intelligent analytics decisions or have that data for your analytics team if the information isn't there and accessible and good data. So it's really having a very keen data management strategy enabling your analytics users to have the right data to make the right decisions, cause if you don't have the right data you can't make the right decisions, and no analytics tool can go in and make informed decisions based off bad data. So data management is definitely part of the overall analytic strategy cause it's really the first step. >> And why the, in the back up corpuses, because you've got visibility on that data and it's the logical-- >> Sure. >> The logical one place, even if it's virtual, to actually be able to do those analytics, right? >> Exactly. >> Okay, and then I'll give you the last word. Thing's that your learning here today at the Vision Event, customers obviously Chicago, big customer center, you're based in Atlanta another big customer center. We were just in New York a few weeks ago meeting some pretty senior level folks. What are you learning here, what's the conversation like? >> I think the one key thing that I've taken out is that really customers aren't going full Cloud. It's you know, I think I saw a stat and 92% of customers are taking a hybrid approach and leveraging a really full data management policy to be able to handle on prem, to be able to handle private Cloud, public Cloud, and the combination. Really having that tool set to give you visualizations across an entire hybrid IT infrastructure I think it important. And that's really one of the key takeaways. >> We would agree, we've talked for quite some time now, years actually how organizations can't just shove data into the Cloud, they can't just put their business up into the public Cloud, rather they need to move the Cloud operating model to their business. it's very clearly, that's the trend, you're seeing so many signs of that. AWS and VMware partnering up. You certainly saw Google do that and this summer with Istio on prem, Microsoft obviously with Azure Stack, huge presence in hybrid Cloud. So those predictions are coming true. Jeff thanks very much for coming to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Yep, thanks for having me. >> Oh you're very welcome. Alright, keep it right there everybody, this is Dave Vellante, we'll be back from Veritas Vision Day in Chicago at the Palmer House Hotel, you're watching theCube. (soft techno music)

>> Announcer: From Chicago, it's theCUBE. Covering Veritas Vision Solution Day 2018. (funky music) Brought to you by Veritas. >> Welcome back to the Windy City everybody, my name is Dave Vellante. We're here covering the Veritas Vision Solution days at the Palmer House Hotel in Chicago right near the lake. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. Lurlene Brown is here. She's an independent security consultant with CJJFC. Lurlene, welcome, thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank You, thanks for inviting us. >> So CJJFC, what are you guys all about? >> Well, basically we're re-startup company, small, independent company. We work with SMBs and non-profits in dealing with their security issues basically. No matter how big, how small. It's the small companies that have one of those things that's, well it's not going to happen to us, or if it does happen to us, what do we do about it? Because they hear about the big breaches but it can happen to a small company as well an SMBs, especially if you have limited budgets and stuff, how do we deal with that? How do we deal with ransomware? How do we pay it off? A lot of questions and stuff like that that they are really concerned about, but a lot of them have the attitude that it's not going to happen to me, something like that, but it can happen. >> There's a lot to talk about there, so let's start with small business. Small business, there's often times not even a CEO, it's an owner, and the distance between the owner and the IT is very short. It's a flat organization. Like you said, they have so many things to worry about, the last thing they want to worry about is security. A lot of times they'll have the attitude of, well, I'm not really a target, which is, well yeah, you are. But let's hope. (chuckles) And a lot of them just clearly don't have, they don't have a SecOps team. >> That's true. >> Many of them just rely on cloud, they have a zillion different SaaS products. They'd rather not have IT. So that sort of paints a picture. >> That's true. >> How do you help them? And do they contact you, do you contact them? Both? >> Well, it goes both ways. Basically a lot of them don't even have an IT department or an IT person. They're going by somebody knows how to work a computer, turn it off and on. Make sure the stuff is backed up. (laughing) >> Fred's really good with this, ask him. >> And then turn it off at the end of the day. So you have to deal with that. You also have to deal with, if they do have an IT department, it's one person that's going to deal with a whole lot of issues. Back up, where is it going to go to? Do we have a cloud provider? If we do, who is it? What is it? Do we have anything else? Do we have on-site premise or off-sites? So it's a lot of stuff you got to do. And the main bottom line is budgeting. Do we have the money or the budget to get this stuff that we need, that we basically need in order for us to survive? Because it boils down to, if you don't have and then something happens to you, something major, a crash or whatever, do you have the backup? Do you have something viable to say to your clients, oh, we're okay, we got your data and we're secure, we can go on with business as usual; or will they just go off and find somebody else? >> So we always talk about on theCUBE people, process and technology, bad security practices by users can always trump good technology. So I presume a lot of your consulting is around people and processes. >> Mm-hmm, that's true, that's true And a lot of it is in transition, I'll give a good example. When Windows decided to go from XP to 7 and 8 and all this stuff, there was a big brouhaha about it. Some people still want to deal with XP. They don't want, because they hear about how good Windows 8 or 10 is and stuff like that. But a lot of people, it's a slow transition for a lot of people to move over from XP because it was very dependable, you didn't hear a lot of problems out of it. All of a sudden you hear, oh, Windows 10. We got some issues, we got some stuff we got to fix, and it kind of is like a panic attack mode. You're in panic modes. Do we want to go back to XP or do you want to, you know, one of our records are in XP and we want to go to 10, will they transfer over? How secure is going to be that? How secure is that? So it's like that kind of example. It takes time for people to slowly migrate from one thing to another to make sure it's safe and it's dependable. And also, it's secure enough, they can be comfortable with it so when the next phase comes up, they can be a little bit more comfortable and say, well, okay, we go to Windows 12 or something like that, and then we'll be okay from 10 to 12 and have no problems with it. >> So that's an example of just basically having core infrastructure that's kept up to date, you're up to date on patching. This is basic security hygiene. There's also the perimeter, and we always hear, well, people spend a lot of time and effort and money on the perimeter, but people are going to get through the perimeter. Phishing is a huge problem. >> Yes it is >> The threat matrix with mobile, you got a zillion mobile apps, and it's impossible to keep them up to date. So are small business owners, which I presume is your primary discussion point, how aware are they of this problem? On a scale from one to 10, is it a two? Because they have so many other things to worry about. Or is it escalating up to six, seven, eight? What do you-- >> It depends of the company. Some are twos and some are fives and sixes. One size doesn't fit all, and that's one thing they have to realize, that one can do more than the other and some can do less than the other. It all depends on the company, their attitude and it boils down to trust. Do we trust ourselves enough to go into that next phase of updating our security or updating our software and all that stuff, the patches and stuff? Do we have the equipment to do, to have that ability to do that as well too, because you got to look at your budget costs and your security. That goes hand-in-hand. >> Backup and security used to be largely two separate domains, sort of in their own little islands. They're certainly intertwined today. Why is that, and how are those two worlds coming together? >> Well, I think it was a gradual process because everybody wanted to keep things separate. But they found out there's a whole lot of commonality, a whole lot of links that they finally came to realize that it's together, dealing with security, because if you didn't have security we would have more than enough breaches than we have now. Especially with small businesses, you can't afford to have a breach because that makes or breaks your company. So you have to look at that and say, well, we need that. But like I said, within the perimeters of your business. Some can afford more, some can afford less or just stabilize what they have now. >> Mm-hmm, okay, so let's talk about ransomware a little bit. It's in the news. As a small business owner, you're like wow, oh god, I hope that never happens to me, but a lot of times they're thinking, well, that's never going to happen to me because I'm the small guy. But is could happen. >> Oh yeah! >> And so what do you advise people to do? You're trying to create air gaps. What role does backup and data protection play? >> Backup is a major thing especially if you have a lot of old data and you want to make sure you have that because once its lost, its lost. A lot of people are not really familiar with ransomware. They hear about it, they think oh, my, I have to, it's just like anything else, like if you kidnap somebody you hold them for ransom. You want this amount of money in order for them to get this person back. Ransomware is the same thing but you're using bitcoins instead of money. Well, it technically is money but a lot of them don't have that thing about it's not going to affect me. Like you was talking about earlier. Does it affect me? How will it affect me? I'll read up more about it. A lot of people have not really read up about it. They hear the word, it's like a buzz word and they say, oh ransomware, what is that? Is that a new software product? Or is that a new something like that, you know? So they have to really keep informed and keep up with what is going on, especially in small businesses. The possibility is, I think, is more greater than big businesses. Because big businesses can recover, small businesses can't. >> Big businesses, they've got the resources, they know what ransomware is, they maybe created some kind of air gap between their data center and their off-site. They've got something in the iron mountain and archived, Maybe they've got stuff on tapes. Small companies are like, they don't even think about that stuff-- >> No they don't, what resources do they have? Or do they have enough resources as well? And have they kept up with the different kind of resources that are available, especially gearing towards them? >> What's your relationship with Veritas? Why are you here? You're not a customer, you're not a big gold partner but what brought you here? >> Well, I want to see what's going on with Veritas, I've heard a lot about it. And we are here to get some information and how we're going to relate to what we're going to be dealing with future customers or present customers and stuff like that. So that's basically what we're here for. It's just to gather information, sort it out, how it will affect small business and non-profitS, and how it can help them and benefit them as much as for larger companies. >> My last question for you is could you summarize the advice that you would give to a small business owner or a non-profit, MD. What do you tell them in the context of security and data protection? >> Backup, especially backup and do your homework. A lot of them, do your due diligence because it makes or breaks you. >> And so they listen to that advice? >> Some of them do, and some of them... It's up to them. I have to say, everybody is an individual, you can't say, but just look at what happens to other people, find examples, talk to other people that you know and do your homework and backup, backup backup. >> Ignore that advice at your own peril. Lurlene, thanks very much for coming on theCUBE. It was great to have you. >> Thank you very much for inviting us. >> You're very welcome. Okay, you're watching theCUBE. We're here at Veritas Vision Day in Chicago, we'll be right back after this short break. (funky music)

>> Narrator: From Chicago, it's The Cube. Covering Veritas Vision Solution Day 2018. Brought to you by Veritas. >> Welcome back to the Windy City everybody. You're watching The Cube, the leader in live tech coverage. We're goin' out to the events, we extract a signal from the noise. We're here at the Veritas Vision Solution Days in Chicago. We were just a few weeks ago we were at the iconic Tavern on the Green in New York City. We're here at the Palmer House Hotel, beautiful hotel right in downtown Chicago near the lake. It's just an awesome venue, it's great to be here. Arista Thurman III is here, he's the principle computer engineer at the Argonne National Labs. Great to see you, thanks for coming on The Cube. >> Yah, good to be here, thanks. >> So tell the audience about Argonne National Labs. What do you guys all about? >> About science, so we're all about the advancement of science. We do a lot of different experiments from technology for batteries and chemistry. The project we're working on is the advanced photon source, which is a light source that's used to collect data in experiments with a photon source. >> OK, so you're an IT practitioner, >> Arista Thurman: That is correct. >> Serving scientists. >> Arista Thurman: Yes. >> What's that like? Is that like an IT guy serving doctors? Are they kind of particular? >> Arista Thurman: A little bit. >> There's some challenges there, but yah it's great. So basically you have a unique customer base, and they have additional requirements. So, it's not like a normal customer base. They're very smart people. They have a lot of demands and needs, and we do our best to provide all the services they require. >> Yah, so given that they're technical people, they may not be IT people but they have an affinity to technology. First of all, it must be hard to BS them, right? (laughter) >> Arista Thurman: No doubt, no doubt. >> They'd cut through that, so you got to be straight with them. And they're probably pretty demanding, right? I mean, they have limited resources and limited time and limited budgets, and they're probably pounding you pretty hard. Is that the case, or are they more forgiving? >> They're great people to work with, but there can be some challenges. I mean, it's unique in the idea that they work on multiple platforms. So it's from Unix to Linux to Mac. Multiple computers in their offices, multiple data requirements. And a lot of things happen without a lot of process and planning. Some things are ad hoc. So, it puts a little bit of strain sometimes on you to try to make everything happen in the amount of time they have. And everything is There's some challenges with regard to how to get things done in a timely fashion when you don't know what's going to happen with some of these experiments. >> I mean I imagine, right? They can probably deal with a lot of uncertain processes because that's kind of their lives, right? You must have to cobble things together for them to get them a solution sometimes, is that the case? >> We do sometimes. I think it's all about getting enough funding and enough resources to take care of all the different experiments. >> Dave Vellante: A balancing act. >> Yah. >> Dave Vellante: Ya so you look after, compute and storage. >> Arista Thurman: Yes. >> Right, so talk about what's happening generally there and then specifically data protection. >> So in general, my primary focus is Linux. Linus administration, Red Hat Linux. And we've seen a lot of data growth over the last five years and we've got projection for more growth as we are planning for an upgrade. So we're going to change our bmine and make it more efficient. Have a better light source and that's all planned in the next two to three years. And so, there's a lot of extra projects on top of our normal workload. We have a lot of equipment that probably needs to be refreshed. There's resources and with IT and any kind of data management things change. So whatever we're doing today, in the next three years we'll be doing something different because things change with regard to CPU speeds, performance of IO networking, storage requirements. All those things are continually growing exponentially. And when scientists want to do more experiments and they get new resources in, it's going to require more resources for us to maintain and keep them operational at the speeds and performance they want. >> Yah, we do hundreds of events with The Cube. We do about 130 events this year, and a lot of them are so-called "big data" orientation. And when you go to those data oriented events, you hear a lot of, sort of the roots of that. Or at least similarities to the scientific technical computing areas and it's sort of evolved into big data. A lot of the disciplines are similar. So, you're talking about a lot of data here. Sometimes it's really fast data, and there's a lot of variety, presumably, in that data. So how much data are we talking about? Is it huge volumes? Maybe you could describe your data environment. >> Primarily we have things broken up into different areas. So we have some block storage, and that provides a lot of our virtual the back-end for our virtualization environments which is either Microsoft or Red Hat RHV. I would estimate that's somewhere in a petabyte range. And then we also have our NAS file systems which spread across multiple environments providing NFS version three and four and also to Windows clients CIFS and some of the Mac clients also utilize that. And that's at about a little less than a petabyte. We also have high performance computing and that's a couple petabytes, at least. And all those numbers are just estimates because we're constantly growing. >> Any given time it's changing. But you're talking about multiple petabytes. So how do you back up, how do you protect multiple petabytes? >> Well I think it has to, it's all about a balancing act 'cause it's hard to back up everything in that same time window. So we have multiple backup environments providing resources for individual platforms. Like for Windows we'd do something a little different than we'd do for Linux. And we have different retention policies. Some environments need to be retained, retention is three years and some is six months, some three months, and so you have to have a system of migrating your storage to faster discs and then layer off the tape for long term retention. It's a challenge that we're constantly fighting with. >> How do you use Veritas? You're a customer obviously? >> Yah, we've been a Veritas customer for many years and we utilize Veritas in our virtualization environments. They kind of help us out with central platform. We've actually explored other things but the most cost effective thing to us at this point has been Veritas. We utilize them to back up primarily our NAS and our black files, our black file systems that provide most of the virtualization. >> Why Veritas? What is it about them that you have an affinity for? There's a zillion other backup software vendors out there, why Veritas? >> I think we have invested a lot in Veritas over the years. Predating my time at Argonne we've been using Veritas. In my previous career, in Sun Microsystems we also had some kind of relationship with Veritas. So it's easy and I think, like I mentioned earlier, we explored other things but it wasn't cost effective to make that kind of change. And it's been a reliable product. It does require work but it has been a reliable product. >> So, you'd mentioned your Linux, Red Hat Linux. >> Arista Thurman: Yes. >> So you saw this IBM announced it's going to buy Red Hat for 34 billion dollars. What were your thoughts when you heard that news? >> I was like, "Wow, what is going to happen now?" I was like, "How is that going to impact us?" Is it going to change our licensing model? Or is it going to be a good thing, or a bad thing? Right now we just don't really know. We're just kind of waiting and seeing. But it's like, OK, I mean that's a big deal. It is a biggest deal certainly from IBM. Their biggest previous deal was I think Cognos at five billion, so this dwarfs that. The deal of course doesn't close probably till the second half of 2019. So it's going to take a while. But look, IBM is known when it buys software companies, saw this with SPSS, you've seen it with other companies that it buys, it often times will change the pricing model. How do you license Red Hat? Do you have an enterprise license agreement? Do you know offhand? >> We do have an agreement with them. >> Dave Vellante: Lock that in. Lock that long term in now before the deal goes down. >> One of my counterparts is in charge of that part of it. So I'm sure we'll be having that conversation shortly. >> Yah, interesting. Well listen, Arista thanks very much for coming on The Cube, really appreciate your insight. >> Thank you. >> It's great to meet you, all right, you're welcome. Thanks for watching everybody, it's a wrap from Chicago. This has been The Cube, Veritas Vision Days. Check out SiliconAngle.com for all the news. TheCube.net is where you'll find these videos and a lot of others. You'll see where The Cube is next. Wikibon.com for all the research. Thanks for the team here, appreciate your help on the ground. We're out from Chicago, this is Dave Vellante. We'll see ya next time.