>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is theCUBE Conversation. >> Hello everyone, welcome to this CUBE Conversation, I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE I'm in the Palo Alto CUBE Studios here with the quarantine crew, doing the remote interviews during this time of COVID. Of course, we want to check in with all of our great esteemed guests and CUBE alumni. We're here with Jerry Chen, partner at Greylock. Jerry, great to see you, it's been a while. Hope you're sheltering in place, nice camera, nice set up you got there at home, thanks for coming on. >> Thanks, John. I set up all the cameras are just for you. Everybody needs their quarantine hobbies, and for me, I kind of dust off the audio visual playbook and set this up, just for theCUBE interviews. But it's good to see you. Glad you and the family are healthy and sane as well. >> Yeah, and same to you. Let's just jump into it, obviously, COVID-19 has caused the virtualization trend, virtual everything. You're no stranger to virtualization, and VMware back in the day really changed the game on server virtualization, but the whole world's becoming virtual. And it's very interesting because now people are feeling, but we in the industry have been talking about inside the ropes for a long time, which is, the future is there, it's going to be about interactions online, software, cloud scale, these things just got accelerated, and the disruption, the change of behavior, Zoom fatigue, Webexing, all this stuff that's happening, people are kind of like, "Wow! This is the future." This is a real impact, and it's mainstream, everyone's feeling about business, to personal, your thoughts? >> Yeah, I think Satya Nadella at Microsoft had this quote recently that they've seen two decade's worth of digital acceleration and transformation in just two months, and I think what we've seen the past four months, John is all the kind of first order effects of virtualization events, not just infrastructure, but like virtualization meetings and people, telemedicine, telehealth, online education, delivery of food, all those trends are just accelerated. We're buying stuff on eCommerce, and Amazon, and Instacart before hand, that's just accelerated. We're moving towards virtualized events, online education, online healthcare, that's just accelerated. So I think we're seeing the first order effects of changing not only how we work, how we communicate, but how we shop, interact, and socialize, it compress two decades within two, three months. And so I think that's changing both how you and I interact and how we build relationships, also how companies interact with their customers, and how companies interact with employees. and it's been exciting time, because one, when there's disruption, there's opportunity, but two is giving guys like you and me a chance to kind of dust off or try new skills, and you and I are both figuring out how to exist and thrive in this role where we're now interacting in this virtualized world. >> And it's still the same game personal relationships. Content is now data. This is stuff that we've been preaching on theCUBE. You've been on many times talking about, I going to get your thoughts as a venture capitalist, whether you're making bets on the future for investments, you have a 10 year horizon, and roughly speaking average on VC deals, enterprises and customers who are building a cloud and data centers, they got to make new bets or double down on stuff they've been doing, or cancel stuff that they had going on, and refactoring. So I want to to get your thoughts on one, first on the VC side, how have you guys refactored your thinking, your meetings, and your bets? >> Yeah, so I would say, three areas, one is how we operate as a VC firm what's changed? Number two, I'll talk about what we're investing in what's good or bad, and thirdly is like, what I think changes for our portfolio companies and how startups think. So first and foremost obviously, we've gone all virtual too, with shelter-in-place, our entire team is now working remotely, working from home, but we're still open for business and we're looking to find new investments, we are investing aggressively right now, and we're just doing things over Zoom. And so we're either A, doing video calls as a partnership, or doing video calls with startups that we're meeting and founders, but I'll be honest, one thing I've done John, is I've turned off the screen more or less, I've done more phone calls because I find that a video call is great for the first or second meeting, but with a founder or executive you have relationship with, it's just really nice to actually, go on a virtual walk where me and the founder of both put AirPods or take the phone to walk outside and kind of have a conversation, that's a little of a higher bandwidth. So, I think how we're operating has changed a little bit, but to your point, is the same business, connecting with a person one-on-one, reading the market, reading the founder, and making a bet. So that hasn't changed. I think on the stuff we're investing in, like you said, all the trends around cloud and APIs and SaaS, that's accelerated. So all the trends around the new workplace, SaaS companies, collaboration, going cloud that's accelerated faster, so some of our companies like Cato Networks that does software defined, wide area networks plus cloud security that just accelerated there in this market called secure access serves edge. We've seen kind of a nice tailwind from that, more and more data is going to cloud so companies like Rockset, that's a database company that you had on theCUBE, they're going to see a benefit from that because more and more data is now in the cloud. Then finally for the founders we work with, the way to go to market, the way to sell like no one's flying around selling one-on-one anymore, you're not meeting a CSO, or the CIO over steak dinner, or you're not going to a conference anymore. So a lot of our companies are figuring out how to do more online sales, bottoms ups adoption, that could be an API, that could be open source, we're trying to find a couple more of our line of business entry to the company and sell that way, versus go to a conference or for one-on-one meeting. So it's interesting, everything's moved faster, but then this slight curve ball on how you connect with your customer has changed. And so what's the Darwin line, it's not the strongest that survives, but the most adaptable. So we're seeing the companies that founders that are most adaptable right now, they're going to thrive. >> It's interesting, we've always talked about from a tech standpoint with DevOps and cloud-native, integration or horizontally scalable has been that ethos of value creation, you've talked about moats in the past, but now it's more real life, is becoming immersed into software, and so I want to get your thoughts on this, and we have a phrase here in theCUBE team is that, every company will become a media company, that's something that we believe in, and you starting to see that people are doing more Zooms, doing more digital events, you mentioned some of the other things. Can you see any other examples where a company has to become blank? Because media is just one element of the new realities of life, right? You got to broadcast, and you got to share your stories and formats, that's media, is there other areas we're seeing, that things that weren't on the radar before with COVID, where companies have to become something like, every company will be blank? Fill in the blank. >> I would say, it's trite to say one, one, was every company is a data company, people have been saying that for a while, that's more true than ever. Number two, I'll be honest, every company now is a healthcare company, right? Because be it in health insurance for employees, the current pandemic is making the reality of both physical health, and emotional health, and mental health key for employees. And so if that was a top cost factor for hiring employees, this could be even more important going forward that every company is a health care company. And thirdly, like you said, every company becomes media company, I would say every company is also either one or two things, they're a Fintech company, because every company is now going online with their content. They wanting to create a one-to-one commercial relationship with a customer, right? That could be ads, could be transaction, could be selling something, so you're now doing business directly with your customer, so every company is a Fintech company, and I would say every company's now also, like you said, content company, right? It's the media creating, but also the data you're taking, the value you add on top of the data you're creating, and then how you share that back to your customer. So you as an enterprise company or a consumer company, you collect data from users, you're to use that data to improve your product, and this could be a SaaS offering, this could be an application, but then take that data through real time analytics, then make your product better and so because of that, if you're a data company, real time data, like our database company mentioned earlier, Rockset becomes more important. If you're a Fintech company, so all things around payments or commercial banking and relationship with your customer make sense. And if a you're a healthcare company because all your employees are now caring about healthcare, just thinking about how to make communication of healthcare with employees a lot more efficient, and a part of the reason why to work for theCUBE and work for a startup is important, so I think those three things are top of mind for all employees and all employers. I think things could change the next six or nine months, but right now I see those three being front and center. >> It's interesting. I wonder if you can add real estate company to that because if you look at the work from home, it's dynamic. >> Yeah >> I had a friend who was a fellow dad with my son's lacrosse team, he lives in Los Gatos, he's been involved in Google, Tesla, building up their facilities, and he had an interesting guest post on SiliconANGLE, and he was saying, it's not just give them some extra pay for their internet access, companies got to rethink the facilities question, right? Because do you pay rent for your employees? Do you provide the VPN, beyond VPN security, for instance? So again, you start to see these new opportunities or challenges, open up new thinking, this is going to be a wave of opportunity. >> Well, that virtualization between work and home has now been blurred like you said earlier, John and so if you're a technology company that enables remote access or distribute access, like Cato Networks when the portfolio comes and Greylock around our road office, home office, that is now how to right? So I had this conversation with Jason of Austin, askSpoke, one of our companies, there's like a mass of hierarchy for working out, and at the base of the mass of hierarchy is like good internet access, right? That's the how to, you need security, right? Because if you don't have secure access, you can't work, and then you have information management, knowledge management, how to communicate, right? And then collaboration, so, you have now this new hierarchy of what is required you to work in this new world, but also the tools and the technologies, be it secured access service edge like CATO or IT Helpdesk for all employees like askSpoke, both of those things become dial tone for any remote work. Just like videoconferencing, we couldn't do this in the same way, 10, 15 years ago, that's become kind of a must have, and so I think it'd be fascinating how we went from the office world where I gave you a laptop, or a computer, or a desk to this home office world, where maybe you now I have to pay for my fancy camera setup and my VPN. >> Well certainly you're getting good ROI on your setup and sure Greylock will take care of that plenty of dough big, billions of dollars under management. And by the way, must have hire things in our houses, ping and internet access, so we fight for that ping time, I got 12 I'm like what's going on? Who's gaming? We have to get the kids off of Twitch, and whatnot. but in all seriousness, this is what the reality is. So now for the average person out there, there's a lot of discussion around mental health, you mentioned taking it off the video conferencing and going for a walk, or just talking on the phone, this speaks to the humanization aspect of what's going on, mental health, social interaction, we're social creatures, collaboration has to be re-imagined. What's your view on all this? >> I think absolutely, look, humans are social creatures by nature, and I think part of the reason why I had this conversation with my founders early during COVID-19, that it's both a healthcare crisis. It's an economic crisis with all the million and millions of people unemployed, but it's also an emotional crisis because one, we're not connected to family, friends, and loved ones, and we're sheltering home with either ourselves or just a handful of people. And so we're trying to figure out ways to like, recreate social connections, and that's a phone call, it's a video call, it's Zoom dinners, it's Zoom dinners, the Zoom parties, is key. I think, going on socially just in walks is another thing to kind of like, play and experience things together. But my two cents is if you're a startup, right now, it can help connect people work-wise or socially, that's just going to be super critical for the new experience. And I think people are discovering new ways to use technology, so Zoom was never meant to be used the way it is today, I think that's amazing. I think how people think about voice video, and email, and chat are changing as well. So I'll finding new ways to like, play games online with my nieces, or communicate with them. And I think as an employer in these companies, like HR software, and how you like manage, and coach, and lead your employees is going to change as well. And so, you have this world where we're all in one building, and think about how you as a CEO, or as a leader now can actually coach, develop, and enable your employees across the world. >> I want to get your thoughts on cloud, we've had many conversations around cloud computing as to rise of AWS, I remember one it was a big Twitter conversation, I think about last year where what enabled Amazon and I think one of the things that came out of it was virtualization enabled them to have all these different servers. What do you see coming out of this virtualization of our lives with the COVID-19, as people start to figure out beyond the triage of stabilization, and as they get foundationally set up in COVID, coming out of it, companies and people have to have a growth strategy, whether it's life or business, people want to come out of this on the upside, whether it's emotional or with their business, what do you see being enabled? What needs to be in place? What kind of scale? What kind of environment? Because this is where I think the entrepreneurs are really going to sharpen their energy on their creativities looking at the expectations and experience needed coming out of this, it may look completely different than what we were talking about a year ago. What's your thoughts? >> Well, I think individually, people can use this time to prove their skills in different ways. So I think as an employee, as CEO, as a founder, you take the time to like invest in new skills, and that could be, "Hey, how do our community collaborate and manage my team remotely?" So I think CEOs and founders that can understand how to motivate, educate, train their employees in this new world, well, those are skills going forward. So communication has always been a great skill John, for any leader, any founder, it's 10X more important in this new virtualized work role, communication, motivation, and leading people over remote work is going to be a new skill that people have. Managing remote teams, managing fully distributed teams or half distributed, half headquarters, so understanding how to organize and lead your team in this kind of half in the office half out of the office role, that's going to be a challenge as well. So any tools, technology and tips there, but I think in terms of the founders that can now hire employees, find customers, sell customers, and manage a distributed team, those three things in this new world, even post COVID-19, we're not going back to the way we were, so the ability to actually use skills around email, creating content, Slack, Zoom, video chat, online conferences, what was that? "Video Killed the Radio Star", the first MTV Video. So, COVID-19, and Zoom, and video collaboration, what's that do to the old skills or the old founders? And what do they enable? So just like TV replaced radio as a medium, and now this virtualized world is going to replace kind of the medium we had beforehand, so, there'll be new generation of founders and investors coming out of this generation that would be for the next 10, 15 years, and I'm excited to be part of that. >> Yeah, and it's super big opportunity, because you have these kind of medium changes, new protocols get developed, new responsibilities and roles emerge, value creation capture, equations change, right? So you're looking at things like online events, for instance, they don't happen anymore, and even when they do come back they'll probably be hybrid anyway. So you got virtual, hybrid, public it sounds like a cloud play to me, public events, hybrid events, and private events, I guess. >> Yeah, virtual private events, but the same thing holds, just like cloud internet increased the reach, right? So all of a sudden, you can reach a bigger audience than just radio, TV, or the newspaper. Now you have these virtualized events like say private events, public events, hybrid events, you as a company or a media property, like theCUBE can now reach a larger audience, right? It's global, you don't have to be there in person, you're going to have the remote audience as a first class citizen, now more than ever, it's just like the internet replacing newspaper and print, people really care about print and newspaper, but really the reach online is always a magnitude larger than print, so all of a sudden you thought more about the print, so the online audience more than print audience. So now going forward, you're going to think about the virtual audience that's remote versus the physical audience. And so you're going to have to create experiences that are their world class or both properties. So just like the cloud, you think about the big three cloud providers, private cloud, as a technology company, you think about all three venues, all three infrastructures as a first class citizen. It's not going to be all one cloud, it's not all going to be one note, if you will. So it forces everyone to think, not just kind of one path, but multiple paths, so like classic problems a lot of founders think, okay, I'm going to do an enterprise private cloud strategy only or I'm going to do a cloud only SaaS strategy. Now founders of this do both the same time, I got to address the private cloud on premise business at the same time as the cloud business, and not just one cloud, three or four clouds around the world. So it forces founders to be able to do more things at one time and the ability for a company to attack multiple venues or multiple territories at the same time, they'll be successful. And the days where I can just do one cloud or one venue, or one audience, those are gone, and so, folks like yourself, John, and what you've built here at theCUBE with everyone else, they can reach multiple audiences at the same time, that's going to be very powerful. >> And we're going to be marketing and doing a lot more online events, like you said, it's going to be easier to tap into our 7000 plus alumni to get people together to create great content. And again, content value to remote audience is interesting. So that shifts into the conversation that everyone talks about the remote worker. Well, what about the remote customer, the remote prospects? So this is going to change how companies have to be change of behaviors. And it's going to be driven by developers, because it's not like one app can solve it, 'cause you got to integrate, you got to have some integration points. So this is the question, are we moving away from that monolithic SaaS app? Or is it going to be some SaaS apps that need to integrate with others? Will there be an abstraction layer of innovation around? Because at the end of the day, these new workloads and new apps going to be built. If you're going to run an event, if I'm a SAP or a big company, I'm not going to rely or may not want to rely on a vendor. In fact, the CEO of SAP said, 'cause their site crashed for their event, "I'm not going to rely on a third party to run my business event." 'Cause their business model is the event, not just a supplier selection for a SaaS app. So interesting kind of new surge of online activity might tip the scales for the supplier side. >> I think you're right John, I think because now the, just like the IT technology is now your business, you're going to basically do one or two things, one, vet the IT technology provider that much higher or harder. But number two to your point, I think the way you sell and you reach companies is going to be through developers and yes, you're going to have these large monolithic SaaS apps before, but almost every SaaS app now has APIs for integration, and so to your point, is that integration and the ability to have multiple companies work together, and share data, and collaborate, that's going to be more important. And so really at Greylock and myself, I've been investing in developer-led technologies and developer-led adoption, or API, or open source-led adoption, for seven plus years now. And the truth of matter is, that's going to be even more powerful going forward. Nassim Taleb would say that's anti-fragile, right? So having one giant app is fragile, but having a bunch of small apps, or a bunch of APIs, or a bunch of developers using your open source technology, or using your API technology to build an application, that's anti-fragile, because at the end of the day, that's going to be more reliable for your customer than a single point of failure, which can be one giant application. So all the big apps like Salesforce, have now other platforms, right? They have APIs, they have extensibility, they understand that there's a long fat tail of solutions needed to build. And all the new startups are doing open source, or API-led adoption 'cause they understand that the fastest route to create value for the customer, is also the most robust technology stack that a customer can build upon. I think that's super insightful, in fact, that is, I think so compelling, because if you think about it, that's the formula for great investments from a startup standpoint. But now, because of COVID, you said, everything's been pulled forward and accelerated at the same time, there's a collision, not all the enterprises are that strong, they're not that developer-led. So I think, to the point about acceleration, now, the enterprises, and we've seen pockets of this with cybersecurity where they have their own, in-house teams doing a variety of different development. The customers have to be developer-led, because that's where the value is, so they have to have a supplier with the right stack and integration frameworks. Now, the customers who haven't really been developer-led, have to be developer-led, what's your take on that? >> Absolutely true. 20 years ago, the CIO of a company that used to be the monopoly supplier technology for the company, they decided what hardware to use, what servers, what stores to use, what applications to buy. And then all of a sudden, like Amazon came around and said, "Well, look, here's a set of APIs, go build what you want." And so the competition for kind of like the centralized decision making became Amazon. And guess what? CIOs reacted, they got better, they got smarter, and those that embrace kind of like an API developer-led adoption, became the CIOs you wanted to have in the company. So I think, CIOs in this cloud mobile era have adopted that philosophy that, look, my job now as the CIO is to enable my developers, my employees, which really the assets of the company is the people, to have the right tools. So you're asked a bunch of cloud APIs, like Rockset or whatever for data, or here's a bunch of resources, or open source technologies for you to pull. So like I invested in a company recently called Chronosphere, it's an open source technology around metrics and monitoring. So, "Hey, use this open source time series database for monitoring your cloud and build upon that," and they're not going to say, "We're going to pick one large vendor that's monolithic," we're going to say, "Here's an open source tech company or a cloud API, go build upon that." And the companies that are embracing that philosophy of API-led or developer-led, John, they're going to be far ahead the better CIOs, the better companies, because the rate of digital adoption has just gone exponential, so we were on this super fast path already, and with quarantine in COVID, we've accelerated all that digital transformation, so every brick-and-mortar retailer now has to be eCommerce retailer. So they're making a slow digital transformation to go from brick-and-mortar stores to online stores. Now like brick-and-mortar retail is pretty much not happening, and probably won't come back to the same levels for a while, they need to accelerate their move towards digital transformation, right? >> And IT certainly exposes the people who haven't really made those investments, because literally action and the mandate, now take action, make those changes, totally want to dig into this developer-led vision, because I think that's very real. And the new decision is going to be made on what to do. I'm happy to see the DevOps thinking, the agile, speed become the table stakes. So with that, this week, Google is having their nine-week digital event of 200 plus sessions, essentially, an asynchronous event, it's going to be sprinkled out, they've kind of pretty much released the videos, most of them today. Over the next eight, nine weeks, you're going to see a lot of videos. Google, one of the big three got AWS, Azure, Google, what's your assessment of the horses on the track relative to the cloud? >> I've been talking about this for seven, eight, nine years, I first met it, like in the first or second Amazon reinvent and what was the forecast? And we said, well, it's not a winner take all, but right now, it's a winner take most. Amazon's clearly the market share leader, Azure coming up quickly behind the enterprise, Google's a third but they're doing some smart things around technology. Google announced a bunch of things today, which I think are very smart. So for example, they announced BigQuery Omni, which is BigQuery that's in query, their kind of a data warehouse, also query data and private cloud Azure or Amazon. And so strategically, if you're the number three player, you're going to push a multi-cloud agenda with BigQuery Omni, or Google Anthos, which is kind of a multi-cloud platform. And for Google, I think is the right strategy. I also think it's the right strategy for most customers to be multi-cloud, because you can't be dependent upon, a single point of failure in your applications. You can't be dependent on a single cloud as well. So I think multi-cloud is probably the direction we're headed as cloud matures. And I think Google's making a bunch of the right choices around embracing multi-cloud, and today they made that choice with BigQuery Omni, and so I think they're playing catch up but they're playing that game. I think Amazon's clue is still in the lead and still it blows my mind, and it's continuing to impress me what they've done over the past 10 years in terms of improving the cloud offering and the cloud services up and down the stack, and I think the past five, six years, what Azure has done, has been super impressive in terms of, Microsoft embracing, open source embracing, cloud as an ethos against their legacy business of operating systems and servers on premise, they've done a great job of embracing the next generation. But I do think, looking around the corner this new developer-led mindset is going to matter, right? So the cloud tomorrow will be APIs, like Stripe for payments, Twilio for communication. So I see the next evolution not just being VMs and containers, but also a bunch of cloud services around data, security, and privacy. And the cloud vendors can build this next generation of database APIs, or privacy APIs, security APIs, that they're going to be in the catbird seat for the next 10 years of applications are going to be built. >> And it'll be interesting to your developer-led position, our conversation around that, if the developer is going to be leading, is it going to be an abstraction layer across multiple clouds? Or do I have to have my Google developers, and my Amazon developers, and my Azure developers? How do you see that playing out? Because I do believe developer-led is the way, the question is, how do you avoid forking resources, right? So you might want to have an (mumbles) I get that, but if I'm going to go double down on say, a cloud, I'm going to go deep, I'm going to hire developers. >> It's interesting, history suggests you have multiple teams remember, we used to have a Unix team or a Sun team inside companies, right? You had a Windows team, you had a kind of a Solaris and Linux team, and there's a Microsoft team, and a non-Microsoft team, in most companies and they didn't really work well together and they had kind of two groups in most companies. I think that was an okay way to get started, but ultimately, to your point, that was not cost effective at all, it was defeating, you see now you had to like have to rethink it, what was my data backup strategy? Okay, I have a Windows backup strategy, and a Unix Solaris backup strategy. So I think we're not going to make the same mistake again, right? I think what will happen, we'll going to have multiple clouds, Amazon, Google, Azure, and then on premise private cloud, so call it, three, four, or five clouds. And then you're going to have a set of tools that can abstract away, not 100% of the clouds, but I think the best developer tools, the best APIs will be multi-cloud. So I can get 80% or 90% of what I want to be done through this developer-led layer of APIs, be it databases or analytics. And then, 10 to 20% of the code, you can write will be able to take care of what's unique to Amazon, what's unique to Azure, what's unique to Google or what's unique to your own private cloud. But I think we're seeing a layer of technology and that's true to all the startups. With back and true to all the startups I see that lets you get most of the way done with a single platform, seamlessly AI technologies, and that's what customers want, right? They don't want to create modal fiefdoms, they want-- >> They want choice. The want choice, but the reality is they don't always get it. I want to go through a throwback to 2010 when Paul Maritz, head of the VMware our first CUBE gig, he said, there's a hardened top. Okay, the hardened top was, you don't worry about what's underneath the top, we're just going to focus on top of the stack that was classic kind of, the stack would develop and you'd had standardization. You mentioned you had Windows teams and Unix teams, but also you could argue that, back then you had Cisco and Wellfleet vendors, but you didn't have two teams of routers, you had one standard that ran the remote interoperability, and OSPF routing, or whatever you had going on, so you had some standardization, how do you view that? Because you want some standardization to have the interoperability, the SLAs and the security, at the same time you want to have flexibility, kind of above what may be called a hardened top, is there a hardened top in multi-cloud? >> I'd say hard top doesn't exist in same way. I think back in the day, you had proprietary technologies, operating systems and firmware, right? So windows was closed, a lot of the network operating systems were closed source. Now you can't get away with that. So you have open source technologies today and public APIs. And so the pressure of both one, competition, two, public APIs that people can read, copy, adjust, three, open source, and it's just customer demand not to be locked into a hard top anymore, that's largely going to go away. So I think most of the major vendors success will try to kind of more or less lock you in and keep you stuck on their platform, their technology, and that's fine, right? Every successful company should be able to do that. But I think the ability to lock you in through proprietary software or operating systems, that's not going to happen anymore. I see through cloud and open source, what we've seen is kind of interoperability, and flexibility is the default, if you can't meet those needs, customers will go other ways. There'll be proprietary technologies, proprietary extensions along the way, but 60, 70% of what you want is going to be compatible with most technologies and most clouds. If you're not going to offer choice and freedom to our customers, they'll go elsewhere. If you don't offer a flexible solution, John, someone else will, and the customers will choose a more flexible solution. >> I would agree with you. Outside of latency, which is laws of physics, value is the lock in, if you're creating value, that's really what the customers want, they get to capture that value. Well, Jerry, great to have you on. I love the new setup. We're going to have to make this more of it. We can bring you in on the podcast when we get Zooms over the weekend, maybe put a panel together. Let's get Carl Eschenbach some VMware alarms to come on, give the perspective, what's going on. And I thank you for taking the time and great to see that you're healthy and doing well. Thanks. >> Me too. Thanks, john. Anytime, I love to be on theCUBE, so I look forward to my next trip. >> All right, Jerry Chen, great CUBE alumni, our first interview over nine years ago, he brought that up. That was at the second reinvent, boy has the world changed, and it's only going to accelerate even faster. Everything's changing new bets are being made, decisions have to be evolving quickly and faster. If you're not fast, you will be in the pile of dead companies and not making it. So, Jerry Chen breaking it down as venture capitalist for Greylock. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (soft music)

>> From Boston, Massachusetts. It's theCUBE. Covering WTG Transform 2019 brought to you by Winslow Technology Group. >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman, and we're at WTG Transform 2019 here in Boston, Massachusets. Happen to welcome back to the program the CTO of Winslow Technology Group. Rick Gouin spoke to the customers this morning, threw in a bunch of data points, got us all thinking about where we are today and where we're going tomorrow in the cloud. Rick, thanks so much for joining us >> Hey, thanks for having me. >> All right, so rick, you and I, we've known each other for a few years now, we have these great debates as to kind of where we are and where we're going. I attended a Nutanix event a couple years ago, and Nassim Taleb, who is the author of a number of books including Black Swan and Antifragile, he worked on Wall Street and he said look, we all try to make these predictions, but we think it's going to be a line, or maybe they'll be slow adoption, but the black swan that he said is something, just the quick thing is you've never seen a black swan, you'd think that all swans are white, and once you've seen a black swan, you're like, oh my god, everything that I thought I knew I have to think any questions. Predicting the future, especially in a never changing world where we don't have all the facts and when we can't predict, is really challenging. So understanding whether cloud will take 80% of the market or 30% in the next five years is a little bit of a complex thing. It's like trying to predict the weather here in New England where we're watching the clouds and the rain roll in and roll out. Start with us as to Winslow Technology, your customers, where they are with cloud, and how that conversation goes with them today. >> Yeah, so I think you make a great point about these statistics, these assertions, these predictions. We're getting bombarded with them without context, and I think that it leaves a lot of our customers feeling like they're behind the curve a little bit because have bandy about the, you'll hear 80% of cloud, of companies have a cloud strategy, and there's never the follow up to see did it change two weeks later, was it actually implemented. And so, I think what we can all agree on is that one, all of these technologies are going to continue to grow. Their adoption is going to continue to grow. We're going to continue to figure out different ways to extract value from those services, but the other part of this, and I think it's really where Winslow fits in, is that we want to help our customers position themselves to take advantage of that. So I want to help our customers transform what they're doing today. If we look out at that three, at that five year mark, we know that we're going to have a lot of workloads out there. I don't know what the percentage is going to be, I'm not going to throw a fake number out there, but we know that it's going to be bigger than the one today. And we also, I would assert, that there are things we can help you do in your on-prem environment today that will help you make you better prepared for that transition and allow you to attack that, hopefully, in a more strategic and well considered way. >> Yeah, absolutely. Well rick, I am very sure 87% of all statistics lie, and beyond that, I would poke and prod at any numbers that I see there because look, numbers are numbers, and as you said, things do change all the time. >> Context. >> When I look at some of the tailwinds that have been driving your business the last few years, hyper convergent infrastructure, some of the services wrapping around, help customers with their security journey, with their cloud journey. You've got a number of partners that are there. The bombardment that your customers get, it doesn't stop. If they open up, they open up the news today, it's like oh, AWS just unleased their latest on outpost, and VMware is partnering with all the clouds, and therefore you better be ready for it. The thing I'll poke a little bit at, I don't mind that customers think they're a little bit far behind because what they need to be doing is being that change mindset because the worse thing they can do is just say, well, I've got it the way I want it and I'm not going to change. And I think that that's something you would agree with and that Winslow's helping them to try to keep up because nobody can keep up by themselves, so they've got to be able to turn to partners like yourself to keep up. >> Yeah. I think one of the think one of the things that was telling that I touched on earlier today a little bit was the number three reason that we heard from our customers for why they weren't leveraging the public cloud was because they didn't know how. And I think that that's telling, I think that sort of response to the whole notion that they're feeling behind the curve, but I also feel like you mentioned hyper converged, you mentioned some of these other partners we work with. These guys all have some great stories that will allow our customers to take a first step. What we're not talking about is saying hey, customers, you've got to re-platform everything. You've got to re-write everything to leverage all these different cloud services and cloud platform. That's a big lift for a lot of our customers, but what might not be such a huge lift is leveraging some of those cloud services, cloud connectivity capabilities that are built into those platforms from those partners like Nutanix, like VMware, like Dell EMC. >> So rick, I really liked your line that most customers, many customers end up hybrid by accident. And unfortunately, I think that's where we are when you go talk to them, they might not understand hybrid cloud, multi cloud, they're just like oh, that's vendor terminology, but do you have SAS? Oh, absolutely, they've all got O365 and Salesforce, and a whole host of other ones. Three which probably IPO today. And are they using a public cloud? They definitely are. Most of them at least understand they're using it as opposed to five years ago it was like oh, wait, we actually checked all the IPs and we had three groups that we didn't realize that were doing the old stealth IT. So what is the advice, how do we make sure we get everybody talking in, what are some steps to move forward on that strategy to actually have a coherent cloud offering, not just the pieces that I put together because that's what different groups did. >> Sure, yeah. I think the hybrid by accident scenario is one that we're seeing more and more often from our customers and also just from other folks in the industry. And I guess just to kind of expand on that a little bit, what we're talking about there is when somebody that we're working with perhaps goes into a project, goes into a cycle with the notion that they're going to be all of one or all of the other. I'm going to put everything in the cloud or I'm going to put nothing in the cloud. And what happens is you find a workload that doesn't fit where your whatever your direction is. And so all of a sudden, if you're one of those people who say oh the cloud is just somebody else's computer. Next thing you know, you're on O365, next thing you know you're consuming Dropbox or who knows what. You've got all of these different public services and you have no integration between your on-prem environment and all these public services you're leveraging. And so, you find yourself in a scenario where you're in a hybrid by accident, and which means that you didn't build in the sort of management that would be able to consider these different silos of information. And so, what we kind of advocate is that when you're approaching these strategic decisions, recognize upfront that you may very well end up in hybrid scenario, at least in the next few years this is probably what it's going to look like, at least that's what I think. Recognize that upfront and build that into your plan. If you plan to end up in a hybrid end state, you're whole environment is going to be such much more cohesive, you're going to have that app mobility, you're going to have so much more flexibility than if you end up there by accident by moving half your workloads out, lift and shifting some things over here, some stuff gets left behind, different groups are managing different things 'cause they're different skillsets. If you plan to be in that state at the end, you're going to be in much better shape, but you're also going to be well positioned to continue to move things out as those services become more robust and as you can extract more value from those for your business. >> I think if you've looked at the history of IT, it's very rare that we get one thing to rule them all. >> Right. >> And it's like, well, Ethernet's done a good job at networking, and the mainframe had it's time there, but at the end of the day, five years from now, it might just be all my solutions are cloud, but it's just, as you said, that location matters a little bit less because by the way, it's not just public and private, that edge computing thing is a huge draw that most companies I talk to have some kind of IOT and censure strategy that they're picking out. How can users be data driven to get to the right things in the right place and really make smart decisions? >> Yeah. So I think that there's two facets here to being able to make data driven decisions. The first is that you have to collect the data. We have to put in the diligence, so certainly, that's one of the places that we're able to help our customers in collecting and in quantifying it, attaching dollars and cents. Here's what the services will cost, here's what the professional services, the re-platforming will cost. Let's wrap some numbers around this. If you're trying to make those decisions, if you're creating a strategy, and you haven't taken a look at what your costs are going to be, what your level of effort is going to be, that's a super incomplete strategy, and it's one of the frustrating things for me as a customer facing resource to walk into one of those situations where a customer is dead set on their strategy, but really doesn't understand it themselves. We really welcome the opportunity to help those kind of do their diligence to be able to create more informed and data drive strategies. Leveraging information from their own environments. >> All right. Rick, last thing is we know things are changing all the time. What's the last thing you want people to know about Winslow Technology 2019 that they might not have understood if they looked at the company a year or three years ago? >> Yeah, so I think that some of the big changes that have really come to us in the last couple years is we're adding technical firepower at alarming rate. Our growth is really focused on the services delivery, and the engineering talent we've brought in high end security resources, high end VMware resources. We're able to deliver those cloud connectivity capabilities from all those different products that you mentioned. We're able to deliver a fairly robust security portfolio today, not to mention, the highest level of VMware expertise that there is out there. So we put a lot of focus into the services, into professional services, into helping our customers sort of understand and make that journey, straddle that public, private, hybrid, multi sort of thing. And we think that services is going to drive a lot of this for us going forward. And so our capabilities are growing leaps and bounds, year over year in the services and engineering talent perspective. >> All right, well, Rick Gouin, CTO of Winslow Technology. Always a pleasure to catch up. My prediction, next year I think we'll be another five to 10% in our agreement as to what the future looks like. >> I like it. >> Just because it will be today as opposed to tomorrow >> Yes. >> in the viewpoint. Be back with much more here from WTG 2019. I'm Stu Miniman. And thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

(energetic, playful techno music) [Voiceover] - Live from Las Vegas, it's the CUBE covering AWS re:Invent 2018. Brought to you by Amazon web Services, Intel, and their ecosystem partners. >> We are live here at the Sands Expo, one of eight venues that are actually here for AWS re:Invent this week as we continue our three day coverage here with you Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday as well, live from Las Vegas here on the CUBE. Along with Justin Warren, I'm John Walls, and we're now joined by Phil Tee, who is the CEO and co-founder of Moodsoft. Phil, good to see you this afternoon. >> Great to be with you, thank you for inviting me along. >> You bet, nice to have you. In fact, I'm going to be the only guy without a charming accent on this set as a matter of fact. A UK and an Aussie here. Your world's data, right? And it kind of reminds me of the old movie Jaws when Robert says we're going to need a bigger boat, right? AI ops, is that your bigger boat? Is that how you're handling this world of data? >> I think that's exactly spot on and one of the things we observe at Moodsoft with our customers is just this crazy complexity that they have to deal with. I mean, we cover everything from large financials, telephone companies, e-commerce businesses, and the drive to adopt agile and cloud and software defined in the the enterprise has driven complexity to the point where the poor old human brain is just out of luck, right? The unaided "I'll figure it out by myself" approach, dead in the water, and you've got to use this artificial intelligence approach precisely as your "bigger boat" to go catch that shark. >> Right. So tell us, there's a lot of hype around AI, and machine learning, and all of these different buzzwords are getting thrown around. Dial us in a little bit. Explain what you mean by AI in the context you're talking about things with Moodsoft. >> So, I think that's very perceptive. There's a tweet going around at the moment which describes the difference between machine learning and AI as, if it's written in Python it's probably machine learning, if it's on a Powerpoint deck it's probably AI. Which is kind of funny, but to the point. And there is a ton of hype going around artificial intelligence. There are some purists who claim there is no such thing as AI and everything we talk about today is really machine learning or data driven algorithms. And there's some truth in that. Really, what we mean by AI is the full panoply of both feature detection, you know, looking for patterns that are not obvious to the human eye all the way through to deep learning, neural nets, convolutional neural nets, where you are training a system to recognize features of the data as representative of something underlying that you're hunting for. So in the case of AI ops it's looking for the cause of, or looking for the presence of, a potential service-impacting outage in the data that we monitor, in the events. But one thing it's not going to do is, it's not going to unplug itself from the internet and come and kill you anytime soon. It's really quite benign and very useful to our customers with what they deal with. >> So, to that point, because you have so much data, and it seems like, I hate to say, most of it isn't needed or most of it isn't of value, but a lot of it isn't, if not most. How do you then decern, how do you assess value and assign value to what really is important and then, put it to use today, when you're getting so much more information than you were even a year ago? >> So just to put a little bit of context on the amount of data, way back before the cloud and virtualization, a typical enterprise, a high event rate would have been 100, 200, events a second. Nowadays, in an average customer of ours, you add a zero or two to that rate, maybe even three. And it's one of the reasons why the legacy systems really struggle with that data. So, job one is, if you accept, and I certainly do, that most of that data is junk. Most of it is inconsequential. You've got to have an algorithmic way of getting rid of that. You know, the old-fashioned way was creating lists of "ignore it because it's a certain severity", "ignore it because it comes from this list of hosts", you know, the whole listing approach. What we do is we use information science. So we can measure the semantic content, and the informational content, of an event to work out whether it's telling us something of import. And we use that technique with great effectiveness to eliminate as much as ninety, ninety-five, percent of the inbound data as effectively affecting nothing. So that narrows the data lake, you feel, down to a point where we can process it in real time through much more computer-intensive AI algorithms to kind of get that high-quality indication of an instance or a potential instance. >> A lot of machine learning and AI is based on learning from history, so, "we've seen all this stuff before and we know what that means", or, even encouraging the machines to go and look at the historical data and then pull out the details as you said. Even things that a human might miss, you'll look at that data and then learn new things. How does that work when we're doing all of this innovation? When there's all of this change and novelty coming in, how does the AI system cope with that kind of environment? >> So, you have to have a dual approach. I mean, I guess everyone's familiar with Mikolas Nassim Taleb's book, The Black Swans. He was trying to explain why it is that you can get a bunch of Nobel Prize winners in a room to design a hedge fund and it can still go bankrupt in the blink of and eye, like the long-term capital management. And the truth of the matter is, yes, an awful lot of the techniques that are supervised and based upon a training set are vulnerable to the "unknown unknowns" to misquote Donald Rumsfeld, and that's why we use a combination of unsupervised feature detection and supervised learning. The unsupervised feature detection just knows something as an unusual, highly correlated, pattern or feature in the data and needs no prior understanding of what's going on. Now, interestingly, there are some hybrid techniques now. You may have heard of something called transfer learning, which is the idea that you partially train a neural net on some kind of standard corpus. It'd be like the stuff that you already know and adapting that sort of partially trained net to something that is literally very, very, very adapted to the system that it's monitoring, it does that very quickly rather than having to wait for a certain critical amount of data before the net is converged. And so those sort of techniques, which we also experiment with at Moodsoft, I think are going to be interesting directions for us in the future with our platform, but there's maybe a hundred PhDs a week given out in AI and machine learning these days. It's definitely getting a lot of focus and there's a ton of innovation that's coming down the line. One thing that we're particularly committed to is shortening the distance between when something's invented and when we can get it into our customer's hands. >> There's usually quite a lag, historically, it's about ten years before someone discovers something and then it actually makes it into the business world so if we could shorten that cycle that would be quite useful. >> We know an academic called professor Maggie Bowden who's just getting ready to retire and she was one of the original authors of the neural net papers in the 1960's, so that kind of gives you an idea of the lag, it could be many, many, decades and it's a shame because the truth of the matter is the pressure on all the people coming to a show like this that want to benefit from the public cloud, new ways of thinking about the application development toolchain, they don't have time to wait around for that innovation to come to them. We've got to drive it a lot faster and, certainly, we view that as one of our missions at Moodsoft, as being passionately involved and sort of shortening that gap between innovation and a production implementation as something really cool. >> So what have you seen at the show so far that you think you want to take to your customers and say, "oh, actually, this is happening and you need to get on to this now"? >> One thing I've observed here is, I guess if we would've been here two years ago, nobody was talking about AI ops. I mean essentially the entirety of how people looked at the cloud was "same old stuff, just lives somewhere different, we can use all of the old techniques". You walk around here, there's a bunch of startups, more established companies, recognizing that a new approach is necessary and my sense of it is that this market which, I mean, let's be honest, we were pretty lonely in it two or three years ago, is starting to feel like it's a little more populated and that's goodness, we're very happy about that, so that is definitely a take away. You know, to go to customers and say "this is no longer bleeding edge, it's simply leading edge". >> Not just a gap in the market, there is actually a market in that gap. >> You're the bigger boat. >> Well, we hope so. >> Phil, thanks for being with us. We appreciate your time here on the CUBE and once again, have a great show and we do thank you for your time, sir. >> Thank you very much indeed. Great talking to you both. >> Phil Tee from Moodsoft joining us here on the CUBE. We're at AWS re:Invent and we're at the Sands, and we're in Las Vegas. (energetic, playful techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE, covering Red Hat Summit 2017, brought to you by Red Hat. >> We are wrapping up day two of theCUBE's coverage here at the Red Hat Summit here in Boston, Massachusetts, I'm Rebecca Knight, I'm here with Stu Miniman. Stu, we started off the morning with Jim Whitehurst, CEO of Red Hat saying planning is dead. We work so hard to infer order where there is none, you're an analyst, you're a forecaster, so I'm sorry to tell you this, but it's not, stop trying. >> Yeah, thanks Rebecca, it's been great, yeah. No, it's funny, I've looked at this from the analyst world, read a book recently called Black Swan, by Nassim Taleb, talks about how really trying to predict some of these big game changers is really challenging. That being said, I've been involved in some technologies early, it's like, I remember playing with the internet when the first graphical browsers came out, and being like, this is going to be a game changer! I had no idea where it was going, but there, I happened to be involved really early in the VMware virtualization days. I started talking to Docker really early. I don't say I'm predicting the future, but, here at Red Hat, communities, we asked Jim Whitehurst about, you build on communities, and I feel I've got a pretty strong network, I'm tied in a lot, through social these days, and feel like I can kind of get the, where's the interesting stuff happening, and where is it just maybe a little bit too, you know, the hype doesn't meet the reality, and one of the other things is how long it takes for certain technologies to kind of mature, what it will look like when it comes through, it's easier to bet on the waves as opposed to some of the particular tools out there, we really loved the conversation with Jim Whitehurst, I always feel like I'm doing one of those executive case studies, that you take at a good business school when you get to sit down and talk with them. >> I agree, he's a great conversationalist, a great guy. During his keynote, and even when he sat down with us, he was talking about the management challenge of technology leaders today, and this is reflective of the theme of this year's conference, which is empowering the individual, and he said that the role of the leader today is to create the context for the individual to try and modify and try again and fail. My question for you is, it implies that the individual was unempowered beforehand, is that accurate? And did engineers not have a voice? >> It's, what is the role of the individual worker, do they know where they're going, do we have a shared clear vision, you talk about most companies, they have their mission statement, and you do studies, and 70% to 80% of most companies, most people in companies are like, "I'm disconnected from the work, "I don't understand how what I do "translates to where I'm going," Red Hat is an interesting, different company, about 10,000 people, we've heard from many of the Red Hatters that it doesn't feel and act like that company, go back to, this is the kind of military-style hierarchy that most businesses have, the structure there, Red Hat is a lot flatter, we talk in kind of the devops world about like two pizza groups, well, the Red Hats committee involved in all of these various projects, hundreds of them that they're involved, it's not one or two opensource things, it's all over the place, and you kind of put your business out on like, well, okay, how do you understand how to, you know, which do you drive and which ones create money, and how are you working in the right place, or are people just contributing to stuff that, you hope if I put good stuff out there in good code, eventually, it will translate to our business, but Red Hat keeps delivering, keeps growing their base, they've made certain acquisitions, and they keep moving forward. >> So I want to talk about those acquisitions, because we had some Ansible people on the show here today, it seems as though the acquisition has really gone well, and the two companies are blending, and it's setting itself up for success. Is that your take too? What do you see as potential obstacles down the road? >> Yeah, that's great, Rebecca, we talk to talk with three different angles of the Ansible team today, and 18 months after the acquisition, it's really broadly integrated. I can tell you, I've worked in big companies, I've worked through a number of acquisitions, 18 months from acquisition to oh my gosh, their secret sauce is all over the place, I'm like, that is quite impressive. It's just, they're a software company, they are agile in their development, and they get to move things forward. And I'd heard great things about Ansible before the acquisition, I hear good things from customers that are using it, some of the other companies in the space that are standalone have been facing some challenges, the third interview that we did, I talked a little bit about how cloud providers were starting to build some of those pieces in. Infrastructure companies have known for a long time that management is one of those big challenges, so, management still seems to be one of those jump balls, it feels like that beach ball bouncing around and everybody's trying to get ahold of it, but Red Hat's figuring how to bake Ansible in, make sure it's touching open shifts specifically, all those things like the cloud forms and insights, and all the other pieces, so, building in more automation fits a lot with what they're doing, and how the Linux administrators understand how to do things, they always wanted to get past, oh, great, I have to go create yet another script and another script and another script, that they'll do that, so, seems to be a great acquisition for them, and helping to move them forward in a lot of spaces. >> Another buzzword we heard a lot today, and it's going to be funny that I described this as a buzzword, but it's simple, simplified, this is what we kept hearing again from partners, saying that this is what they're hearing from customers, because they just have so many different application, they've got old infrastructure, new infrastructure, the cloud, they've got hybrid, and they just want things to work together and play nicely. They're coming out with solutions, are they solutions? Are they in fact simpler? What's your take? Are you skeptical that things are in fact getting simpler? >> Yeah, Rebecca, there's a line I used, the simple enterprise is an oxymoron, it does not exist. If you look at any enterprise today, how many applications they'd have, it's like, well, do you have hundreds of applications, or thousands of applications, depending on how old you are, what the size of your company is. Everything in IT is additive, we had somebody on this week who was talking about the AS/400 sitting in the back, we had HP on, I'm sure they've got lots of customers, still running Superdomes, we've covered the mainframe pieces, and oh, well, Red Hat Enterprise, Linux, lives on lots of these environments, so we're going to standardize the software pieces, but there's only pieces of the puzzle that I can simplify, and really building software that can live in many environments, and help me move towards more composable or distributed architectures is the way we need to go, I liked Red Hat stories, where they're taking us, but I think if you talk to most IT staffs, even if they're like, "Oh, yeah, we're doing a lot of public cloud," or, "We've standardized on a couple of piece and things," most people don't think that IT is simple. >> And then there's the cost, too, I think that one of our guests made this point about proprietary software, and how it really is, it has a higher bar, because customers are going to say, "Why can't I just get this on opensource? "Why do I have to pay for this?" And so that's another question too, where are you seeing the financials of this all play out? >> Yeah, it's interesting, we're talking a lot about hybrid cloud, and when we first started talking public cloud, it was like, oh wait, it'll be cheaper. And then it's like, wait, no, it'll help me be more agile, and maybe that will then lead to cost, it was like, the old faster cheaper better, there're certain people in the development culture, that's like, "Well, if I can just do faster, "faster, faster, it will make up for everything else," then again, if I move too fast, sometimes we're breaking things, we're not being able to take advantage of things, so, it goes back, is this that simple? It sure doesn't sound simple, so it's, IT is a complex world, pricing is one of those things that absolutely is getting sorted out, Red Hat has a nice position in the marketplace, when I look at the big companies in the market, you need to take software companies like Microsoft or an Oracle, one of the first things most people think about when you hear those companies is like, oh, their price. Red Hat has brought adoption, and a lot of customers, and do I hear issues here or there on certain product lines, where yes, they'd like it cheaper, or there? Yes, but it's not a general complaint, oh, well, hey, you want to do, let's just use the Fedora version, or the CentOS version rather than the full enterprise version, and they have some sliders to be able to manage with that, starting to hear more, kind of the elastic cloud-like pricing, from Red Hat and some of their partners that solution that these pieces with, so, yeah, pricing isn't simple yet, it's definitely something that we're going to see more and more as we kind of get to that cloud-like model. >> Today, as particularly in the morning keynote, some of the use cases were from the government, we had three, including British Columbia, which we just had on our show, also Singapore, so it sounds as though government is saying, "Wait, what is this opensource? "This can really help us, this can help us engage "our citizens and help make their lives easier, "and also, by the way, make it easier for us to govern," will government sort of always lag behind, or do you think that there is a possibility that government could really lead the way on a lot of these things? >> Well, it's funny, 'cause we've known for a long time that government typically doesn't get a lot of budget, so when they go to do something, first of all, they sometimes can leapfrog a generation or two, because they've waited, they've waited, they've waited, and I can't necessarily upgrade it, so I might need to skip a generation, secondly, government has, if we talk about things like IoT, and all of those data points out there, the data has gravity, data's the new oil, government has a lot of data, you just interviewed British Columbia, I'm sure there's the opportunity there that as data can be leveraged and turned into more value, working with entrepreneurs, working with communities, government now sits in a place where, if they can be a little bit more open, and they can take advantage of the new opportunity, they can actually be on the vanguard of some of these new technologies, anything you got from your interviews? >> Yes, no, absolutely, I think that one of the things that really struck me was the recruiting and retention piece, because that seems to be one of the hardest things. If you're a hot coder, or an engineer who's graduating from one of the best schools, it's going to take a lot to get you to go work for the government, it just will. >> Rebecca, when I was in college, I did an internship for a municipal government, I digitized all their land management, did a whole database creation, and did one of those things, the old process took two months, and when I was done with it, it could be anywhere from two minutes to maybe a little bit longer, but boy, that was a painful summer to work through some of the processes, their infrastructure was all antiquated, great people, but government moved at a slower speed than I'm used to. >> And that is what I got out of my interview, so they are using the same kind of tools that these coders and developers would be using in the private sector, they're also doing smaller engagements, so you're not signing your life away to the government, you're able to work on a stint here, a stint there, you can do it in your free time and then get paid on PayPal, so I think that that is one way to attract good talent. Stu, we got one more day of this, what do you hope to see tomorrow, what are you going to be looking for, what do you want to be talking about tomorrow at this time? >> Well, what we always get here is a lot of really good customers, I love the innovation stories, right past the hallway here, there's all of these pictures, and Red Hat's a great partner for us on theCUBE, they've brought us many of those customers, we're going to have more of them on, another two keynotes, full day of coverage, so we'll see how many people make it to the morning keynote after going to Fenway tonight, 4,000 people, pretty impressive, I think we'll see, it's not like we'll see more red in the audience than usual, at a game at Fenway, but yeah, you're rooting for the home team, I'm a transplant here, go Pats, you know? >> Mm, okay, alright, so it's the argument, I think, that they were hoping for. So I want to thank you so much, it's been great doing this with you, and I hope you will join us tomorrow for day three of the Red Hat Summit in Boston, Massachusetts, I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman, thank you, and see you tomorrow! (electronic jingle)