>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering DockerCon '18, brought to you by Docker and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, we are live at DockerCon 2018 in San Francisco on a spectacular day. I am Lisa Martin with my with my co-host for the day, John Troyer, and we're very pleased to welcome back to theCUBE a distinguished CUBE alumni and Docker veteran, Steve Johnston, Chief Product Officer at Docker. Welcome back. >> Thank you, thank you very much. That's Scott Johnston but that's okay. >> What did I say? Steve? >> Steve. That's okay. >> Oh, I gave you a new name. >> You know, I get that all the time. >> I'm sorry, Scott. >> That's alright. >> This event, between five and six thousand people. >> Yes. >> You were saying in your general session in keynote this morning, that this is the fifth DockerCon. You started a few years ago with just 300 people and when I was walking out of the keynote this morning, I took a photograph, incredible. People as far as the eye can see. It was literally standing room only. >> It's crazy, right? And you think about four years ago, June 2014 when we did our very first DockerCon, here in San Francisco, 300 people, right? And we've gone from 300 to over 5,000 in that time, grown the community, grown the products, grown the partnerships and it's just, it's very humbling, honestly, to be part of something that's literally industry changing. >> You gave some great numbers during your keynote. You talked about 500 customers using Docker Enterprise Edition. >> Yes. >> Some big names. >> Yes. >> MET Life, Visa, PayPal, McKesson, who was on stage and that was a really interesting. McKesson is what, 183 years old? >> Healthcare company, yeah. >> Talking about data, life and death type of data. >> Right. >> Their transformation working with Docker and containers was really pretty impressive. >> It's exciting that companies get their hands on the technology and they start maybe on a small project or a small team but very quickly they see the potential impact of the solution and very quickly, it's almost infectious inside the organization and more and more teams want to jump on, understand how they can use it to help with their applications, their business to get impact in their operations and it just spreads, spreads like wildflower. That was really the story that McKesson was sharing, just how quickly they were seeing the adoption throughout their org. >> I thought that was really interesting and they did point it out on stage, how that developer adoption did help them go to the next level. >> Yes. >> And kind of transform their whole pipeline. >> Yes. >> Now Scott, you've been here the whole line of time and that through line has been, for Docker, that developer experience. >> That's exactly right. >> Now, as Product Lead here, you've got the Docker Desktop side and the Docker EE side and it's clear, there were some great announcements about desktop here, previews today but how do you balance the enterprise side with the developer centric desktop side and that developer experience idea? >> No, it's a great question, John. I'd reshape it almost to say, it's a continuous platform from developer experience to the operation side and you have to stand back and kind of see it as one and less about trading off one versus the other and how do you create an experience that carries all the way through. So a lot of Gareth's demonstration and the Lily Mason play, was showing how you can create apps in Docker very easily as a developer but those same artifacts that they put their apps in to carry all the way through into production, all the way through into operations. So it's about providing a consistent user experience, consistent set of artifacts that can be used by all the different personas that are building software so that they can be successful moving these Docker applications through the entire application development life cycle. Does that make sense? >> It does, thank you. I'd love to get your perspective, when you're talking with enterprises who might have some trepidation about the container journey, they probably know they have to do it to stay agile and competitive. I think in the press release, I believe it was you, that was quoted saying, "An estimated 85% of enterprise organizations are in a multi Cloud world." >> That's right. >> In a multi Cloud strategy. >> That's right. >> So when you're talking with customers, what's that executive conversation like? C level to C level, what are some of the main concerns that you hear and how influential are the developers in that C suite saying, "Hey guys, we've got to go this direction"? >> No, that's right. That's a great question, Lisa and what we hear again, and again, and again, is a realization going on in the C suite, that having software capabilities is strategic to their business, right? That was not always the case, as much as a decade ago, as recently as a decade ago, inside kind of big manufacturing businesses or big verticals that weren't kind of tech first, IT was a back office, right? It was not front and center but now they're seeing the disruption that software can have in other verticals and they're saying, "Wait a minute, we need to make software capabilities a core capability in our business." And who starts that whole cycle? It's the developers, right? If the developers can integrate with the lines of business, understand their objectives, understand how software can help them achieve those objectives, that's where it kicks off the whole process of, "Okay, we're going to build competitive applications. We then need an operations team to manage and deploy those applications to help us deploy them in a competitive way by taking them to the Cloud." So developers are absolutely pivotal in that conversation and core to helping these very large, Fortune 500, hundred year old companies, transform into new, agile, software driven businesses. >> Modernizing enterprise apps has been a theme >> Yes. >> also at Docker for a few years now. >> Yup. >> Up on stage Microsoft demonstrating the results of a multiyear partnership >> That's right. >> between Microsoft and Docker both with Docker integrating well with Windows server as well as, you talked about, Kubernetes now. >> That's right. >> Can you talk a little bit about what the implications of this are? The demo on stage, of course, was a very old enterprise app written in dot net, with just a few clicks, up and running in the Cloud on Kubernetes no less. >> That's right. >> Managed by Docker, that's actually very cool. You want to talk a little bit about, again, your conversations? >> Absolutely. >> Is this all about Cloud native or how much of your conversations are also supporting enterprise apps? >> Tying back to Lisa's question, so how do we help these organizations get started on their transformation? So they realize they need to transform, where do you start? Well guess what? 90% of their IT budget right now is going into these legacy applications and these legacy infrastructures, so if you start there and it can help modernize what they already have and bring it to modern platforms like Docker and Kubernetes, modern platforms like Window Server 2016, it's a modern operating system, modern platforms like Clouds, that's where you can create a lot of value out of existing application assets, reduce your costs, make these apps agile, even though they're thirteen years old and it's a way for the organization to start to get comfortable with the technology, to adopt it in a surface area that's very well known, to see results very, very quickly and then they gain the confidence to then spread it further into new applications, to spread it further into IOT, to spread it further into big data. But you've got to start it somewhere, right? So the MTA, Modernized Traditional Apps, is a very practical, pragmatic but also high, very quick, return way to get started. >> Oh, go ahead. >> Well I just, the other big announcement involving Kubernetes was managing Kubernetes in the Cloud and I wanted to make sure we hit that. >> That's right, that's right. >> Because I think if people aren't paying attention, they're just going to hear multi Cloud and they're going to go on and say, "Well everybody does multi Cloud, Docker's no different, Docker's just kind of catching up." Actually, this tech preview, I think, is a step forward. I think it's something- >> Thank you. >> I haven't actually seen in practice, so I'm kind of curious, again, how you as an engineering leader make those trade offs. Kind of talk a little bit about what you did and how deciding, "Well there's multi Cloud but the devil's in the details." You actually have integrated now with the native Kubernetes in these three Clouds, EKS, AKS and GKE. >> GKE, no that's right. No, it's a great question, John. The wonderful and fascinating but double edged sword of technology is that the race is always moving the abstraction up, right? You're always moving the abstraction up and you're always having to stay ahead and find where you can create real value for your customers. There was two factors that were going on, that you saw us kind of lean in to that and realize there's an opportunity here. One is, the Cloud providers are doing a wonderful job investing in Kubernetes and making it a manage service on their platforms, great. Now, let's take advantage of that because that's a horizontal infrastructure piece. At parallel we were seeing customers want to take advantage of these different Clouds but getting frustrated that every time they went to a different Cloud they were setting up another stack of process and tooling and automation and management and they're like, "Wait a minute. This is going to slow us down if we have to maintain these stacks." So we leaned in to that and said, "Okay, great. Let's take advantage of commoditized infrastructure, hosting Kubernetes. Let's also then take advantage of our ability to ingest and onboard them into Docker Enterprise Edition, and provide a consistent experience user based APIs, so that the enterprise doesn't get tied into these individual silos of tools, processes and stacks." Really, it's the combination of those two that you see a product opportunity emerged that we leaned heavily into and you saw the fruits of this morning. >> I saw a stat on the docker.com website that said that customers migrating to EE containers can reduce total cost by around 50%? >> Yes. >> That's a significant number. >> It's huge, right? You're reducing your cost of maintaining a ten year old app by 50% and you've made it Cloud portable, and you've made it more secure by putting it in the Docker container than outside and so it's like, "Why wouldn't you invest in that?" It shows a way to get comfortable with the technology, free up some cashflow that then you can pour back into additional innovation, so it's really a wonderful formula. That again, is why we start a lot of customers with their legacy applications because it has these types of benefits that gets them going in other parts of their business. >> And as you mentioned, 90% of an enterprise IT budget is spent keeping the lights on. >> That's right. >> Which means 10% for innovation and as we've talked about before, John, it's the aggressively innovating organizations that are the winners. >> That's exactly right and we're giving them tools, we're giving them a road map even, on how they can become an aggressively innovating organization. >> What about the visibility, in terms of, you know, an organization that's got eight different IT platforms, on prem, public Cloud, hybrid- >> Right. >> What are you doing with respect to being able to deliver visibility across containers and multiple clusters? >> That's right. Well that's a big part of today's announcement, was being able ... Every time we ingest one of these clusters, whether it's on prem, whether it's in the Cloud, whether it's a hosted Kubernetes cluster, that gives us that visibility of now we can manage applications across that, we can aggregate the logging, aggregate the monitoring. You can see, are your apps up, down, are they running out of resources? Do you need to load balance them to another cluster? So it's very much aligned with the vision that we shared on stage, which is fully federated management of the applications across clusters which includes visibility and all the tools necessary for that. >> Scott, I wanted to ask about culture and engineering culture >> Thank you. >> The DockerCon here is very, I think we called it humane in our intro, right? There's childcare on site, there's spoustivities, there's other places to take care of the people who are here and give them a great experience and a lot of training, of course, and things like that. But internally, engineering, there's a war for talent. Docker is very small compared to the Googles of the world but yet you have a very ambitious agenda. The theme of choice today, CLI versus GUI, Kubernetes versus Swarm, Lennox and Windows, not versus, Lennox and Windows, you know and, and, and, and now all these different Clouds and on prem. That's very ambitious and each "and" there takes engineering resources, so I'm kind of curious how the engineering team is growing, how you want to build the culture internally and how you use that to attract the right people? >> Well it certainly helps to be the start up that kicked off this entire movement, right? So a lot of credit to Solomon Hykes, our founder, and the original crew that ... Docker was a Skunkworks project in the previous version of our company and they had the vision to bring it forward and bring it to the world in an opensource model which at the time was a brand new language, go language. That was a catalyst that really got the company off and running in 2013/2014. We're staying true to that in that there's still a very strong opensource culture in the company and that attracts a lot of talent, as well as continuing to balance enterprise features and innovation and you see a combination of that on stage. You're also going to see a wonderful combination of that on the show floor, both from our own employees but also from the community. And I think that's the third dimension, John, which is being humble and call it "aware" that innovation doesn't just come from inside our four walls but that we give our engineers license to bring things in from the outside that add value to their projects. The Kubernetes is a great example of that, right? Our team saw the need for orchestration, we had our own IP in the form of Swarm, but they saw the capabilities of Kubernetes is very complimentary to that, or some customers were preferring to deploy that. So, no ifs, ands or buts, let's take advantage of that innovation, bring it inside the four walls and go. So, it's that kind of flexibility and awareness to attract great engineers who want to work on cutting edge, industry building technologies but also who are aware enough of, there's exciting things happening outside with the community and partnering with that community to bring those into the platform as well. >> So Scott, you guys are doing a lot of collaboration internally, but you're also doing a lot of collaboration with customers. How influential are customers to the development of Docker technologies? >> At ground zero, literally and we have at DockerCon, we call it a customer advisor group, where the customers who have been with us, who have deployed with us in production, we have them. And it's a very select group, it's about twelve to sixteen, and they tell us straight talk in terms of where it's working, where we need to improve. They give us feedback on the road map and so that happens every DockerCon, so that's once every six months. But then we actually have targets inside engineering and product management to be out in the field on a regular basis to make sure we're continuing to get that customer feedback. Innovation's a tricky balance, right? Because you want to be out in front and go where folks aren't asking you to, but you know there's opportunity, at the same time here, where they are today, and make sure you're not getting too far ahead. It's the old joke, Henry Ford, where if he's just listened to his customers, he would have made faster horses but instead he was listening to their problems, their real problems which was transportation and his genius, or his innovation, was to give them the Model T, right? We're trying to balance that ourselves inside Docker. Listen to customers but also know where the innovation, where the technology can take you to give you new solutions, hopefully many of which you saw on stage today. >> We did, well Scott, thanks so much for stopping by theCUBE again and sharing some of the exciting announcements that Docker has made and what you're doing to innovate internally and for the external enterprise community. We appreciate your time. >> Thank you, Lisa. Thank you, John. >> We want to thank you for watching theCUBE. Again, Lisa Martin with John Troyer, live in San Francisco at DockerCon 2018. Stick around, John and I will be right back with our next guest. (upbeat techno music)

>> Narrator: From Austin, Texas it's the Cube, covering DockerCon 2017, brought to you by Docker and support from its ecosystem partners. (upbeat music) >> Hi I'm Stu Miniman, and this is the Cube's coverage of DockerCon 2017 here in Austin, Texas. Getting towards the end of our two days of coverage. Really been geeking out on a lot of the technology here, and I was happy to be able to pull in two guys I know, I've had them on the Cube before, to really go in into how this who container wave is impacting their business, to go into the technology some. So I want to welcome back to the program, first you know John White. He's the Vice President of Product Strategy with Expedient and who I'm happy to see not wearing his football jersey. John, thanks for joining me again. >> (laughs) Good to see you. >> And Joep Piscaer, who is the CTO of OGD. I had the pleasure of interviewing Joep over in Europe last year at a show, so, you know, welcome over to Austin. I think Vienna and Austin, woe meet coma at both of those places. >> Oh yeah. >> So yeah, it seems every time we get together there's a lot of that going around. >> There's always a meet excuse, right? >> Right, so maybe start with you, have you been to DockerCon before? What's your experience been here at the show so far? >> Yeah, so this is my second DockerCon. I've been here last year as well, in Seattle. And I'm kind of liking the vibe this time round. So last year it was really, you know, all about developers. I'm kind of liking it, more about the enterprise right now. You know, as an enterprise guy, work for an MSP, so you know, we deal with a lot of enterprises. And it's good to see that Docker is, you know, giving the enterprise a lot of thought and a lot of attention because, you know, that was one area where they were lacking last year. >> So John, you know, you look at a lot of the ecosystem, you're also a service provider. What's your take so far? >> Yeah, so this is the first time for me at DockerCon. I go to a lot of conferences, so I read the room a little bit differently, I guess, than most. It's been interesting for me. These two days have been jam-packed. I've been soaking up a lot of new knowledge and new vendors, new potential partners for us to look into. But I'll agree, I think a lot of the focus on the enterprise, figuring out maybe how this is relevant to them and the future is actually a really great way to go and I hope to see more of that. Looking for those use cases right now is a little bit hard, especially when you have people like Visa that have been working on this for, you know, a few years now and only six months into production. We're just so very, very early in this technology that I think we're still walking, maybe, probably still crawling even, through it. >> Yeah, before we go into the tech, let's talk about ecosystems. So it's a word that I heard over and over again in the keynotes. You know, John, I was talking with you at VN World at AWS Free Invent, as a service provider sometimes, it feels like body blows and head shots, going to some of these shows because how they're partnering with you, how do you see Docker? What kind of things do they build? How does that, you know, help or hurt your business? >> Yeah, so Docker is a company, we really haven't worked with them quite yet. The ecosystem, though, is interesting here. There's a lot of new faces here, a lot of faces that I've interacted with on the Virtualization Days, now kind of porting over to here, so, you know, I've already started to reach out to some of them to kind of get an understanding, like for instance, of risks on the network side, what they're doing, how they're actually interacting with Docker. And think that's going to be really important because I think that's going to be one of my bigger challenges in the future, is how I actually network all this stuff together. You know, I can see us definitely starting to work closer with Docker, with Docker Data Center. I think customers are going to demand something like that. And they're not going to want to host it inside of their data centers. They're going to want to host it in probably a third party service provider. >> Yeah, I'm sure both of you were looking at, I think it was the Visa case study, we talked about utilization of what they had and I thought of you guys, cause it was like, oh, wait, big surprise, my utilization is really low because wait, why am I doing this in house when I should be going to somebody to handle that. Your thoughts on the ecosystem, you know, we talked at the Nucanic Show, you know, when you look at technology partners, you know, how does Docker and their ecosystem fit in to your thoughts? >> So it's like a whole new ecosystem to get into, right? So it's kind of discovering from ground zero again, what's the ecosystem look like? Who's doing what, who's developing what kind of new trends? So it's good to be there early, just to get a good feel about the ecosystem, get to know the people and be able to kind of develop a strategy around Docker, because it is early days, right? So it's way too early to go in to a customer and say we have a complete package for you. That's just not going to happen between now and like six months. So the issue really is how you get to a point with the customer where you can jointly develop a strategy to get Docker into your service profile. And going to events like DockerCon really helps to actually kind of achieve that goal. >> So you guys are always in an interesting space, you know, you're consuming some of the technologies from the vendor, you've got your customers, you know, putting demands on you, so you know, CTO sets strategy, why not dig in for us a little bit as to what your seeing, what's good, what's bad, you know. There's networking, there's storage, there's security, you know. Maybe John, start with you. I don't know if networking would be the one to start, but I'll let you choose. >> Yeah I think we're going to run, I mean, we're an infrastructure company. We've been running virtual infrastructure since 2007. We know it, we understand it. And you start to understand where the pitfalls are. This is going to change it. I mean, the bin packing problem is going to change significantly over the next few years. Some of the people, I went to their use case session, they're saying they're seeing 70% reduction in resources. Now, they're not saying 70% reduction in resources, you know, just because they made things smaller. They just packed them tighter into a smaller group of boxes. That's going to be interesting. And you know, discovering how we can actually provide that at the true infrastructure layer for our customers is going to be a really big challenge for us. And it's going to revolve around us having pretty strong partner relationships since we don't do the professional services to kind of figure out how to transform your application. We're going to need somebody to help us there. We're going to handle the infrastructure underneath. >> Maybe explain that a little more. Like you know, if I'm saying well, if I'm Amazon and I can just do that, they've got kind of infinite resources there and therefore as a customer I don't need to worry about that, you know. What do you have to worry about? And should your customers care or will you make that transparent to them? >> Let's think about, you know, we went to virtualization. We had P to V converters, right? We all used them, we all tested them. We said okay, this physical server now can run as a virtual server, that works. You really don't have, even though they announce something where you can take a VMDK to an image, Docker image, you really don't have a clean way to do that unless you think that building a big monolithic container is going to save you time and money. Maybe it will. But there's going to be some sort of application transformation that you have to do to be really successful inside of this new platform in the future. And that's something where I think you're going to have to have partners really ingrained to help build the cultural, help build the bridges to the operational teams, help to show the value to the executive team and why you're going to save money, why you're going to do something more secure, you know, how it's going to benefit you in the future. And those are just pretty big challenges that are out there in front of us. >> Joep? >> Yeah so that's the major issue, right? So from our perspective, we use ISVs for the software we deploy for customers, you know, a lot. I'd probably say like 90% of the applications we deploy, we didn't develop or the customer didn't develop in house. It's just all, you know, standardized V stuff. And having a networks of ISVs around you to help you transition from virtual machines into some kind of container format, to address the bin packing problem, that's going to be, that's going to be the biggest challenge to solve, right? It's not just packing up an application and moving it into a container. It's actually transforming it from whatever it is now into something more efficient, more scalable, more resilient. And that's you know really the issue we're trying to tackle, as far as looking at the ecosystem, looking at how to build our practice around it. It's not just infrastructure anymore. It is really all about the application now. So you have to develop a whole new set of skills. You have to develop new people around you. You have to develop new services. And that's interesting because it does have real advantages for the customers, but it's going to take a while to have that mature to a level the customers can actually pull it off the shelf and implement it in their own companies. >> One thing I think on the infrastructure side that I just was in Visa's use case, they were talking about how they're doing it on bare metal. That's different for us. We've been running virtualization for so long, now to say to the engineers, hey look, we're actually just going to run a Linux operating system, or even a Microsoft operating system now on bare metal, and we're going to run containers and get rid of that hypervisor. That's going to be a pretty unique conversation to have. We've already created the monitoring tools and unit performance tools, looking all at the VM. Now we might go back to just running servers again. It'll be a new challenge. >> Yeah really interesting. So there was a lot of focus in the keynote about how they've been maturing security. Want to get your take on that. You know, two years ago it was like oh wait, that's one of the biggest barriers to putting things in production. It feels at a high level like we've made some good progress. Is security still an issue? Are you comfortable with where we are? Maybe anything that still needs to be done? >> You want to go first? >> Sure. (laughing) >> This is a can of worms. >> Yeah so security is always, you know, it's always a can of worms. But you know, my take on it, it doesn't actually matter if it runs in a container or VM. Like 90% of the threads come from outside the compute right? So it's going to come off the network, off the internet, off the users. So really from a security perspective, I'm kind of ambiguous which way to go. But again, the ecosystem story comes back into play, right? Is the ecosystem mature enough to actually deliver security products for containers? The VMware ecosystem was completely mature in that sense. It can just pick off, you know, 20 products and basically do that same thing. And for Docker, that's going to be, you know, a challenge to say the least, to get up to a point where you can pick whatever you actually need. And it's going to be a discovery and it's going to be a little while before we get there. >> Yeah, so I have to read through your tweets to find the answer, John? >> No, no, I'll give you, I think well, security's a mess kind of in general but it's, I think some of the things that they're doing you know, early on, that before there's any critical mass adoption yet, making sure encrypted traffic and handling TLS certificates in an easy fashion, that's great. I was impressed with the notary function, where it can go and look at the image and know if there's any vulnerabilities, and go and identify the problems. It really helps the developers kind of understand the operational asks that people actually have to make sure, okay look, you're going to roll out this new image, this new code? Let's make sure it's secure to get started, at least. We all know it's going to kind of, maybe fall out of the norm once it actually gets up and running operational and production. But let's make sure it's secure at least to boot the thing. >> What do you see containers, when does it have a significant impact on your business? Does it transform the way that you deliver your service? Will it change pricing? >> Yeah, I think it's going to. I mean, a few things that are going to happen. I mean, it's going to increase in scale, so you're going to have more to actually manage, which is going to be a new challenge. That's one side of it. But you're going to probably end up consuming more infrastructure in the long run. And that infrastructure is going to get commoditized even more than it already is right now. And you're going to have to make sure that that's down to the minimum dollars or the minimum cents that you need to provide that very small segment of actual storage or RAM or compute that you need. And that's going to really shift the business. And especially when you look at a lot of containers where you have some that may be run on a monthly basis, a lot of them are only going to be running maybe a few seconds, a few minutes. So you're going to have to have very granular tracking and understanding for that show back charge back to the CFO that you're actually running the services for so they know exactly what they can expect for the bill that month. That's really different than what we're doing today. >> You know will that be a challenge for you to continue to compete against the public clouds, where it seems that that's a more natural fit for some of the pricing and the models that they've built? >> I don't think so. I think this is something where you're even getting more high touch with the application. You know, data sovereignty, that was listed up there I think on Met Life's use case today. That's always going to be important. They're going to want to know where the data's living, why it's living there, how to audit, how to do compliance against it. That's always going to be really important, that'll make us be a little bit different than the public cloud. >> Alright, your business? >> So I agree, right. So the pricing is going to be something to kind of readjust. But I kind of see a lot of advantages in terms of security, the secure software supply chain. So I'm really liking that message. So instead of having a big unknown in terms of whatever is coming into your data center, you now can say with a certain degree of certainty that the application you are running is secure, it's been tested, it's been tested by the compliance team. And I think enterprises in the end are really looking at how to mitigate those security risks and having such a secure software supply chain is absolutely going to help in that respect. >> Alright, so what feedback would you give to the community, what more do you want to see developed, areas where you think we need to make some progress, you know? Joep, I'll start with you. >> So the biggest is monolithic applications. So a lot of enterprises still have legacy applications. >> Well, you've got Oracle in the Docker store now. >> Yeah, exactly. (laughs) But it's still a monolith, right? So addressing that problem one way or the other, but especially in terms of availability, recoverability, I think that's one major area where Docker needs to focus on in the coming months. >> Alright, so John, same question, with a little twist for you is what you'd like to see and anything that if you're talking to VM Ware, what they should be doing more in this space. >> Okay, yeah. I think, I want to see from Docker a lot more use cases. I want to see them start to build their user group and community a little bit more, a lot more sharing needs to occur. The use case session that they had, it was basically two days of use cases running, were great. A lot of those companies, I had a hard time relating to my customers, I mean, Visa, Met Life, they're huge. I really don't, our service, you know, small to medium into the large, but those, they don't have the same use cases. So continue to focus on, you know, how we can actually work on this together with these new customers. On the VMware side of it, VMware's in every data center in the world. And they have a story around VIC, they have a story around Photon. They need to continue to figure out how to build that bridge to, maybe that VM decay to container tool that they have. Work on it together, see what you can do together to take this on to the next level of understanding of really how we can actually transform these applications that were all built in Vms. >> Alright, well, John, Joep, really appreciate you guys coming through. You never hold back sharing your opinions on it. Look forward to reading, I'm sure you'll probably do write ups from the show, too. And we've actually got Visa on as our next guest here. You've probably given me a couple of questions to ask there too, when I go into it. But getting towards the end of Cube's coverage here at DockerCon 2017. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)