>> Voiceover: Live from Las Vegas, it's The Cube, covering ServiceNow Knowledge 2018. Brought to you by ServiceNow. >> Welcome back everyone to The Cube's live coverage of ServiceNow Knowledge 2018, #Know18. I'm Rebecca Knight your host, along with my co-host Dave Vellante. We have two guests joining us, we have Mitch Kenfield who is an Advisory Principal CIO advisory at KPMG, And Adrian Hubbard, Service and Process Manager at Linklaters, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Adrian, I want to start with you. Can you describe for our viewers what was sort of happening, what was going on at Linklaters, sort of the inflection point when you realized you needed to step up your game in this arena, and just lay that our for our viewers. >> Yeah, I think, from Linklaters' point of view, we're very much, kind of, use the telephone more than anything else, it's very much a contact organization through voice. And we wanted to implement a platform that would engage the users in a different way, more to be self-serving, more chats, more routes to service, if you like. And we saw ServiceNow as the right tool for that. We did some due diligence, an RFP process, but that wasn't enough, we had to build a strong business case to make sure we were doing the right things. And that's where we kind of reached out to KPMG to see what they could offer us in this space. >> Talk more about your business, and-- >> So we're a global firm, we're kind of part of the magical circle, so there's four or five in that arena we call our strong peers. And yeah, as I say, fairness can be very challenging, their day themselves needs to be very efficient and very effective, and they don't always want to have to tell Serve. So one of our challenges is the more time they spend with us the less time they're billing their clients, which is obviously the revenue of the firm. But then when you've got 450 plus partners they all feel they want to run the firm in a way that perhaps is regional, office-based. So some of those challenges play into delivering service also. >> You talked about doing your due diligence, how did you go about that? What was the, what was your process? >> So we engaged with a consultancy firm to help us through the process. Through that, we worked out where do we want to get to, our vision. We short-listed some top-set firms, there was about three or four on the list that we knew met the requirement. So we then went through the process of the next layer down and series of workshops with each provider. Obviously, there was a cost model, we got supplier guys involved from a contract perspective, tried to get the best price. But I think deep down we always felt ServiceNow was the right fit for us. And I've been at Linklaters six years, when I first joined Linklaters that time ago, we went through the same process. We chose the different tool then, but ServiceNow was in the list and we really would have liked to have gone there six years ago. But I think ServiceNow have improved a lot during that time, and now was the right time for us to choose them. >> It was the one that got away, and now you've brought it back. >> Absolutely, yeah, yeah. >> So, Linklaters reached out to you, so then describe about, describe how you sort of shepherded them through the process? >> Yeah, so they had reached out in our London office, and I guess I had happened to be there and jumped on the phone with them, and first of all, when Adrian mentions about the culture of a law firm, so we are a consulting firm you know, consultants and tax and audit and finance folks, so we kind of understand that, it's kind of like the industry where everybody's the boss and nobody's the boss. So we jumped on the phone, and one thing that I mentioned as Adrian was describing, is that we see this space as an opportunity to truly change the way the technology business is running, and therefore change the ultimate business. >> Adrian: Yeah. >> And so, we tell our clients a lot, if you're just going to kind of implement, it might not be the right thing for you. But if you're ready to transform the way you run technology, and the way that supports the business, we think we can help, and we brought something to them that we call Powered IT, which I can give some details on, but just at the highest levels it's our view of an accelerated transformation that includes some technology components, but more than that includes operating models and process to say let's not reinvent things, let's bring to you what's good, and that way we can spend our time focusing on the specifics for you, to get you to the business result you're looking for, and that was kind of that first conversation we had. >> Sure. >> The word "agile transformation" is popping into my head. It's such a common theme today, but is it relevant to what we're talking about? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, I'll start, Adrian, and maybe you can give your perspective on it. When we bring our view, and again, we call it Powered just as a tag, but really what it is, it's an acceleration. It's the components from an organizational aspect's process, metrics, supporting ServiceNow with some kind of near-the-box configurations to add in to that. And then, to your question, it's how do we deliver that in an agile way, where you see it constantly. We don't take six months before we show something, you're seeing it regularly and we can course correct and tweak to say we have a limited amount of effort we can spend, let's spend that in that agile methodology for things that transform you sooner and get it done. Would you, what was y'all's reaction? >> Yeah, to add to that, so what's really important for me is that we hadn't worked with KPMG before although, we were talking early doors, we didn't know what this Powered IT was, what it would bring us. So we made sure we had a number of kind of pre-sales workshops, where I could see the product and they've got a very strong environment where I could see exactly was I was going to get at the end, which is important for me because there's always a risky element, going in with a new incumbent, it was going to be success of this, or not, and I had to be sure that we did the right risk assessment. So actually, to be able to be provided with that kind of out-of-the-box experience, because often you go into sales call, or into the RFP process, and then you come out the back end of it and actually you see, actually getting what you saw in that sales demo. So it's important that we did that extra look. So I think we're able to see the end product, if you like, and then through talking with Mitch and the team and the UK guys, we then knew what the approach would be, very agile and quite aggressive as well. We delivered end-to-end in 14 weeks, which, considering that it took us from the old tool to ServiceNow, it took us from the old way of working to a new way of working on day one. We switched the old tool off on day one. There was a lot going on, it was... you know, we had to really stick to scope, as well, to manage mistake holders. >> I'm interested in how you managed risk, because that's the one thing that popped into my head. When you transform and your business processes are affected you know, you want to move fast, but there are dependencies. So how did you identify those, how did you guys manage the risks? >> I think, in terms of... We were quite strong on what our service improvement plans were looking like, we knew that we needed a new tool, we knew the tool would unlock it, but we didn't know is the extras that KPMG would bring through the Powered IT. So it's more than just the tool set itself, it's actually the processes and the policies. So because we're able to look at those day one, we knew what the end product was going to be. And plus we went with the preferred Powered IT platform. What we didn't try to do was to impose our current way of thinking. We took the KPMG way of thinking, which was the less risky approach, it meant that we weren't customizing, which was a big danger for us, potentially. So we also knew it was fully supported, because KPMG have put this Powered IT module together, built with other clients as well, so we knew we were adopting best practices from other clients. But actually it was fitting, the way we needed to get to from our vision. I think the thing that made me a little bit nervous was we'd been through a number of maturity assessments over the years that said our processes were quite mature. Where we were weak, really, was some of the reporting, the visibility of performance. So again, but they were kind of the key things from risk assessment, let's make sure the key things we could see working. And then we knew the risk was less. But, you know, as always, when you engage with a new incumbent for the first time, we had to make sure that we met the team as well, that was also a key part for us, to make sure the people we'd be working with, from day one, we met them at the beginning. And they stayed throughout. So that was also very good for us. >> So, Adrian, I'm curious about your particular experience, and then Mitch, I wonder if you could chime in on other clients that you might see. You always hear, "You got to have buy-in from the C-suite, top down." But when you go change the operating model, I often hear, the senior management goes, and then the rest of the company's like, "Well, we got to run the business," and they're trying to catch up. >> Yep. >> Is that a common problem? How do you guys deal with that? >> I think our senior team have been in place, they've been very supportive. There hasn't really been an issue there. And a lot of the senior team also supported the decision to go ServiceNow, which is important for me. I have to say, not all parts of the IT organization thought it was the right decision, but we had to demonstrate that as we went through, and the series of workshops was important, early doors. So we made sure we engaged the right stakeholders, they felt part of the whole solution end-to-end. And yes, people tried to push the scope at times, tried to scope creep, but actually senior management were very good and supportive of me to stick to scope. Stick to what we've agreed to do, help me push back certain people when they became challenging. And because we stuck to that scope, we delivered on-time. The fear would've been, as you know, you customize, you go off track-- >> I think what we see, to your analogy and I think your degree, you have to have that senior commitment. There can't be a question of why. But what breaks down often is that kind of next layer of key managers and stakeholders that maybe didn't show up to that meeting, and you know, didn't, you know... And those are the little things that can kind of take it off rail. And to your question earlier about agile, the great thing about a well-executed agile methodology is not about doing agile configuration it's about doing agile business transformation. It's about having regular interaction points where those stakeholders are involved in the process. And every day they're in those sessions and they're seeing something, and they get the chance, and we connect together. And that's what gets you to the end of it, to where instead of just in 14 weeks, we deployed a technology that kind of feels the same way we used to work. You deploy a technology and people are doing things different, and that's a key aspect. >> Dave: Lot of repetition. >> A lot of repetition. >> A lot of overcommunicating-- >> And we tell our clients a lot, it's going to be a rough 14 weeks, because you're going to be involved. This isn't the old-- >> Adrian: You didn't tell me that. >> Well (laughs). It's not where you're going to give me requirements we're going to go away and build something and hope we got it right and you're going to say, like you said, "That's not, wait, I thought I was going to get..." We're going to be in it and the teams are working collaboratively, stand up meetings, and all those kind of things. And it can be interesting, and for many of our clients, it changes the way they think about programs, right? >> So how's it going? I mean, what's the business impact been? >> It's been really positive. Of course, it talks for itself, it's really good. The fact that you've got 20 thousand people here kind of demonstrates that, but it is the industry platform, and there isn't anything that comes close to it, if we're being honest. But in terms of where we are now, we are gaining a lot of benefit from the dashboards, the reporting. We've still got to make sure the quality of data is good, of course, but actually visualizing our performance is really powerful. But we've also introduced new ways of interacting with our user base, so chat is a big thing for us. We now have a user pool to what we want to market out to the firm. So we're trying to get away from the telephone as the first point of contact, and move into other contact areas, like the portal. So that's the kind of areas that we need to kind of market outwards. But we're about three months in from go live. So we're now kind of looking back on some of the improvements already that we want to make, so looking at how we're using it, working with teams on using it better. So the improvement cycle is kicking in. And we've already made some minor improvements, and there will be more to come. >> So you avoided custom mods-- >> Yes. - Which is very important because the allure of custom modifications, it's so attractive, and then you know, you get technical debt and stuck with it. What have you learned, if you had a mulligan, would you choose anything differently? >> Yeah, it's an interesting point, because I think one of the things we could've done better already was the training. Because what was really powerful about Powered IT, there was training material, we had to kind of adapt that for our own change process, of course. Understanding our culture and how training with Linklaters, isn't necessarily the same as perhaps other technology firms, where they're expected to sell flurn. Very much the model at Linklaters is kind of classroom-led training, that tends to be our culture. And we perhaps didn't do enough of that before go live. So yes, everyone went live day one, they could log a ticket, but they couldn't unlock all the other benefits that we were really trying to deliver. So I guess that training's one of those areas that you could always overdo, but I think I would go back and arrange training earlier, make sure people know the training's coming, make sure their diaries are free as well, because we're all busy people. But I think, yeah, I think for now, I think we did a good job in the 14 weeks, but I'd come back and look at training again. >> And when was your go live? >> We went live on the 12th of February, this year. >> Oh okay, and single CMDB is the vision, or goal, or? >> Yeah, so we went live with the CMDB, we're now able to populate that out, and everyone knows that can be a pain point. So that's one of the kind of evolutions we're going through now, but as I said, we switched off the old tool on the day one, so we had to make sure the customer-facing processes were working, that we could may control changes, problem management could deal with issues that reoccur. So all of that was in place, but actually we've unlocked the power of the tool for visibility, managing the tasks across teams is quite big for us, as well. But that whole transparency of data has really improved the way we work. >> Rebecca: Great. >> I think one aspect, to play on your question, there are certain aspects of the platform in that transformation that you may not do all, but you need to design an architecture right the first time. So on the CMDB, you might not have it all the way populated, but if it's not architected with a good CMDB data model, it'll catch up later on, to your point. And so, a lot of, I think, that effort is a certain amount of time you have to show value, and then you lay that groundwork, you start improving, and then you make the decision of if and when do we expand into new things. When do we move into new areas, outside of the core, and those kind of things. >> For you know this, Mitch, too, and one of... I'm going to comment, maybe you could... You could give me your observations, early on in the ServiceNow, before the big ascendancy, a lot of mistakes were made, in terms of companies not standardizing, getting the CMDB architecture right, for a lot reasons, you had politics, people were trying to slide it in. And now you see a much more consistent vision around CMDB, how to architect it, single CMDB, one throat to choke, essentially. >> Yeah, I agree totally, and I think if you look at the ecosystem of what this all is, you have to level set on it, it was drastically different from a platform perspective, and three or four years ago to now. And to your point, I think there were a lot of relatively quick implementations, if you will. And again, quick implementation is okay, as long as it's architected and thought through for the long term, and I think we're seeing in the market some implementations that maybe made some short cuts, if you will, but to your point, the things that you got to get right, you got to get the CMDB and the data model, that layer, right. You got to get the employee experience right. You only get one chance to set an employee experience. If you underwhelm, then you've lost that audience, right? Then they're like, "Eh, well, yeah," you know? And you only get one chance to have some transformation, and it doesn't have to be going from crawling to, you know, sprinting, but if you go from crawling and it feels kind of the same way, you lose interest in expanding the capabilities. So I think that's, we've all, you know, the ecosystem has learned from that, and there are some things that you've got to get correct, and what we try to do with our clients is try to say, "Hey, let's not argue about those things, right, let's not start with a whiteboard and argue about the things that should be the same for Linklaters, that should be the same for anybody." Let's get that 80% where it's, let's focus on the things that are specific to you and not deal with that common stuff. >> Right, capture their attention right away. >> Absolutely. And we use a term internally, and sometimes with our clients too, everybody knows the 80/20 rule, right? You do 80% of it, you just should stop, it's not worth the effort. We switch that, we say 20% is what makes it work for you. We should just power through the 80% that should be the same for everybody else, and the 20% that makes it work for you. How do you deal with employee experience in a law firm, right, where everybody are knowledge workers, that have all, that's very different than employee experience in a, you know, industrial manufacturing firm, right? So that's what matters and what makes it transformational to a specific organization. >> And you're in Jakarta, or Kingston? >> We're on Jakarta-- >> Yeah, okay. - Yeah. >> Great. >> And again, because it's delivered through Powered IT, KPMG do a lot of the testing, once the new version's available, it's their offer to us in terms of making sure it's fit for purpose for their Powered IT platform. And as been said, it's the 20% that we've configured for Linklaters is what we need to test. >> So we're big believers, and John mentioned it this morning of only stay one behind at most. We're big believers in we should help our clients learn what's in the new upgrade, and how it applies to them. So we've heard this week, there's some great things coming out with London, some new things in the experience, and some automations, and so on. So our job is to bring that to our clients with Powered, and say, "Yep, we're ready, here's what's in it, and by the way, here's what they've advanced, and here's what you should look to add, and let's have that ready for you." >> So, you keep people, at worst, in minus one-- >> Correct. - Is really your objective-- >> And our general advice to clients, is if you need to go to N, if there's functional new capabilities that change your business, go to N right away. If it's more just add-ons, stay at N-1, learn from the others, and keep advancing, but never go later than that, absolutely. >> And but, ServiceNow will allow you to be N-2, right? >> They will. Going forward, they're going to keep you more to N-1-- >> Dave: Pushing you along, right? >> Exactly. So you want to save just one release back and you want to make sure, and again, to use that term I used earlier, as long as you stay near-to-the-box, you know, and out-of-the-box, if you turn it on, you need to add it, get it into your environment, you need tailor it, right? But there's a fine line between staying close to that and doing way too much, and over-configuring, not even customization, just making it to where it's really complex, and that's where we try to keep our clients away from. >> Do they still do cakes, you get a cake? >> Yes. >> Had a good one. >> Yeah, we had a really good one on go live. Yeah, it's actually on LinkedIn so yeah, go and have a look. >> A bunch of law books, it looks really smart. >> It looks really good. >> Yeah, it looked very good. >> And it tasted great, too. (laughing) >> That's important. Adrian, Mitch, thanks so much for coming on The Cube, we had a great time. >> Thank you both. >> You're welcome, thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Knight, for Dave Vellante, we will have more from ServiceNow Knowledge18, coming up just after this. (music)