>> Announcer: From Palo Alto, it's theCube, covering Women Transforming Technology 2017. Brought to you by VMware. >> Welcome back to theCube's coverage of Women Transforming Technology here at VMware in beautiful, sunny Palo Alto, California. I'm Rebecca Knight, your host, and I'm joined by Lori MacKenzie. She is the executive director of the Clayman Institute for Research at Stanford University. Lori, thank you so much for joining us here today. >> So happy to be here. >> So, we were talking before the cameras were rolling about your research and one of the things you were talking about is the frozen middle and I really like that terminology because there's so much research about the subtle biases that women face in the workplace and how management can make all the difference. So, tell us a little bit about this frozen middle and about the strategies you're using to help middle managers become better managers. >> You know, people often say employees leave managers, they don't leave companies, and so, the manager really is setting the experience of every employee and so, our question is this: Can you help managers be more inclusive in a way it makes them feel like they're both better managers and better business leaders? So, what we do is we do experiments with them. We say, "Try this" or "Try that," that will block bias and make you more effective. For example, do you know what you're evaluating people on? Do you have a toolkit for that? What kind of dashboard might you create to make yourself more effective? It turns out, when managers create something themselves, based on gender research, and it helps them be more effective. They'll even fight new HR people trying to change them back to a different process because they know it works. And for me, that's the win-win. Managers co-design it, it's based on gender research, and because it makes them more effective, they're more likely to redo these processes themselves, even if they don't have any HR support. >> So, part of it is training, but it also, it sounds like a lot of it is also ownership, too. >> Yes, absolutely. What we found is sometimes inclusion or diversity training is decoupled from what people do everyday at work. What if we put them together and talk about you creating something using the gender knowledge and thinking about what you do every day at work? When you couple those back together, that's when it really matters to managers and makes them feel more effective. >> So often, diversity and gender issues is part of the HR function of a company. >> Lori: Absolutely. >> But your approach is really different. Tell us a little bit about what how you recommend companies think about gender and diversity. >> So, you need diversity inclusion to live somewhere. You need an owner of it and it makes sense that it's owned by the HR function. And we think that's essential. >> Rebecca: And it makes sense because it starts with hiring? Or because? >> And with people 'cause it starts with people. These are all people and people crosses every single function, from marketing to technology, to law, and that makes sense. It's necessary, but not sufficient to motivate change. Change happens because each function and each person believes that it improves what they're doing. So, for example, the rollout of something like Agile software development, software developers use it because they were told it makes them develop better software. What if we approached diversity like that? Managers start to be curious about it and engage in it because they thought made them better developing software that was unbiased, their team meetings went better, more voices were included, people weren't leaving. When you embed it in what people do every day, that's when it's not something that disappears when the HR person disappears. It's embedded in what people do every day and we think that's really important. >> And you were also talking about, you were talking about thinking about this in terms of product rollout, but also, in terms of how people are introduced and how they interact. >> So, we've discovered language matters. And often, if we don't think strategically about language, stereotypes will guide how we call people, regardless of who they are. So, we might tend to say, "I love working with Lori. "She's so great. "She's my best friend." And "I appreciate working with," let's say, "Brian, because he's a strong leader and very strategic." And even though I think they're both really great and really strategic, the audience takes a very different perspective of what people's contribution is. So, language matters, how we introduce people. I always tell people look closely at your LinkedIn profile. Look at how you're endorsing people and try to use language that reflects your values, which are both very driving, strategic, and collaborative teamworking. Combine them, don't default to one or the other, based on stereotypes. >> So, can you, let's unpack that a little bit more. In terms of the stereotypes and the way you described Lori on the one hand and Brian on the other, how is it different and what would you say is typically done and what should we be thinking about to do better? >> Well, it turns out that men and women leaders behave very similarly, that we describe their successes and failures very differently in language, based on stereotypes. So, for not thinking about what do I want to say and then instead, think about what I happen to say, we'll wind up describing them very differently for the exact same outcome. Some descriptions are more aligned with getting promoted and some are more aligned with kind of that helper, supporter-type person. And over time, you could start to see someone gaining an advantage, based on how we perceive them, not their actual contribution. So, one of our recommendations is to think strategically about language to prevent that kind of perception difference from being replicated in how we introduce people, how we describe them, how we talk about them. >> In terms of diversity programs, we were talking a little bit about this before the show started. Does it matter where you start? Do you start with thinking about being more inclusive of women or minorities or people of different sexual orientations? I mean, where do you start and does it matter? >> That's such a great question. It's something I grapple with all the time and in all my years of working in this field, my new line is, "There is no trickle down diversity." And what I mean by that is, by working on the kind of the broadest segment, for example, women, does not mean that Black women, Latino women, and Asian women will benefit for their fair share of these efforts and it might be harder to design for everyone, men of color, sexually diverse people, people with disabilities, but if we don't start there, it seems like we never get there. So, my new perspective is, we really have to start with the hard questions and in the end, whatever we develop will benefit far more people than starting somewhere and having them make up for the fact that we didn't include everybody equally in our programs. >> As the executive director of the Clayman Institute at Stanford, what do you make of what's happening right now in Uber, in Silicon Valley? We've seen so much really depressing, horrible news coming out and this is just a couple of years after the Ellen Pao lawsuit. Why aren't things better and what's your take? >> So, the mechanism of what's behind all the news today is the same. It's privilege. That someone's story is believed and someone's story is not believed and we act on the stories that more align with our cultural norms of expectation, high performance, and that perpetuates itself. And to tell you the truth, there are many days when I just can't look at the newsfeed, but then, I hope that every day I get a little bolder. I found I've spoken a little more strongly, I've pushed a little harder, I've tried not to be complacent myself, but more importantly, I'm trying to support the men and women who are trying to make a difference because we're all feeling a little bit beat down by some of the news and I think now, more than ever, we need to support the well-intentioned people who are trying to do good and know that it's a long view and we're in it for the long run, so let's not get distracted by anything but keep pushing forward, even down to making sure our daughters know that they matter, that if something happens to them, it matters, and that our sons, it matters that they're good men, that they grow up not to have locker talk. I think all of that matters. >> And are you working on anything in particular right now that is directly, I mean of course it directly, it all addresses it, but that really is about what you're hearing women's tales from Silicon Valley? >> You know, what's really exciting about being at an institute that's over 40 years old is that we have a range of topics that we work on and at the Clayman Institute, we've been working on breaking the culture of sexual assault for two years now and we're looking at what are the cultural configurations that enable these actions to be kind of, happen frequently and what can we do to address the culture in which assault and harassment happens. So, we've been studying things like how do you announce, how does a company make an announcement about their findings about sexual assault? Does it matter that you announce with a big statistic? Does it matter that you say these things are unacceptable? Or to just say it's part of, kind of every day life? So we're studying the language of these announcements. We're studying the frequency of them and it's something we've been working on for years because I think when you think about gender equality, it's complex and it's got a lot of dimensions and if we only go in one direction, we're going to miss something. So, I think it's always keeping your eye on all the barriers that women face from harassment to language, to promotions, to access and figuring out what are common ways that we can address and attack all of those issues and find workable solutions. >> What is your best advice to a, let's say a male executive in Silicon Valley who says, "Lori, I want my company to be different. "I want it to be a more welcoming, inclusive, "nurturing culture for everyone." What would you say to him? >> I would say, "Start with the assumption "that everything might have bias in it." Then-- >> Because we're human or-- >> Because we're human. >> Okay, okay. >> And just like software, you always assume there's something you can debug and you're looking for ways that it might be broken and we're often complacent about how people are treated in team meetings, how we hire, who gets promoted. And if we assume that there could be a bug in any one of those processes and we're vigilant about getting better and better over time at tracking them and proving them and then, getting ahead of 'em, that's where a company can take real traction. But the moment we become complacent, we actually open the door to more bias 'cause then we stop looking and the bias is always going to be there. >> But I like what you said too about assume that there's something you can debug. I mean, that's real software, but that's, (laughs) you're talking their language. >> Right, right, and I talk to a lot of male executives. Very well intended, who really want solutions, so part of my optimism is there are a lot of well intentioned people in all of these companies. Let's get them the tools and perspectives to be effective and I think we will continue to see positive momentum, even though the environment right now is a little hostile. I think keep driving forward with the long view, make your cultures as inclusive and safe for all your employees as possible, and take a good hard look at where there might be bias and let's not be afraid to tackle it together. >> And now, let's give advice to that young woman who's starting out at a company in Silicon Valley, who maybe is freshly graduated from college and has never experienced the workforce before. What would you say to her? >> I'd say, "You're awesome." And you know, there are challenges for everyone. Even CEOs get coached about their presence and everything else and there probably will be more barriers as a woman or a woman of color that you're going to have to get better at, but I'm like Gloria Steinem. I'm a hopeaholic. I believe we can all develop the skills. I think we should work together, break the barriers, and develop the skills. But in the end of the day, your voice matters and having you develop the future of technology matters so, let's work on that together. >> Lori MacKenzie, thank you so much for joining us. >> Yeah, thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for theCube. This is Women Transforming Technology. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Commentator: Live from Palo Alto, it's theCUBE, covering Women Transforming Technology 2017, brought to you by VMware. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Women Transforming Technology here in sunny Palo Alto at the VMware conference. I am Rebecca Knight, your host. I'm joined by Josie Gillan. She is the Senior Director of Engineering at Cloudera and a passionate advocate for getting more women into technology. Josie, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you very much for inviting me. Pleasure to be here. >> So I want to start out by asking a question that should be obvious but it may not be. Why do we need more women in technology? >> Right, so that's the classic question and I think I probably would have the classic answer which is just so many studies have shown that diversity results in much better products, much better ideas and we've found numerous stories where products were developed by mostly white males and they just have actually alienated many, many of their customers, right? So it's definitely that we need to have that diversity and I think 50%, 51% I think actually, of the population is women, right? So let's not disregard half of them. I just think women have a lot to offer and a lot to add. It's a generalization, but women generally are more collaborative and supportive so it's the right thing to do and obviously the numbers in tech are just so far skewed off what the actual numbers and population are that it's time to continue to do something about it, but it's hard. >> I want to talk to you about what you just said about women in their approach to work, their approach to being on a team. You said they're more collaborative. You were talking a little bit earlier about EQ and the importance of EQ. Can you comment on the perspective that women bring and the approach that they take to being on a team that is different in your experience? >> It's just that women are generally probably, again I'm really generalizing here, but the way that women network with each other and support each other and generally want to touch and connect, I think that's a lot of what it is about networking. So for example, again this is not all women, but in 101s and meeting with your fellow peers, I think connection is really important and building the relationships and probably being a little more vulnerable I think is really important rather than the stoic I'm here to get what I need. I think women generally tend to say, "Okay, what can we get together?" And I think that's a natural trait that women have, but again purely generalizing. >> In terms of Silicon Valley, you've been around at a lot of different companies. You built your career here. Is it better? Now also particularly now at a time where we are hearing so many horrible stories about overt sexism, everything from subtle biases to overt sexism and sexual harassment. What's it like? Tell us the tales from the trenches. Do you have? >> Well, first of all, I think you were going to start to say, "Is it getting better?" >> Rebecca: Yeah. (laughs) >> Unfortunately it's not and there's a lot of studies to show that. What I think is changing though is that we are talking about it more and more starting with I guess it was two years ago and there was this grassroots effort after one of the Grace Hopper Conferences to get companies to actually publicize their diversity data so I think that's number one, right? That we're actually getting companies to say what their numbers are, both for gender and people of color, right? >> Rebecca: So the first step is really awareness that there could be a problem. >> Exactly. And then that there's a lot of companies investing in and obviously hiring a diversity inclusion leader. I've been at Atlassian before I came to Cloudera and Atlassian is a great company, got some really good two CEOs who really believed in diversity but again like other companies, the numbers were pretty, pretty bad. And it was in Australia too, probably you knew that. I actually moved to Australia for a year and I think it was very young. It was not only not so diverse on the gender but also very young which is again very common in tech companies, but they've gone and hired a diversity inclusion leader and she's doing an amazing job at bringing in more programs, getting awareness out there and trying to make a difference, but it's not an easy job. I think she's doing amazing. I think our folks at Cloudera are doing amazing. Salesforce is doing amazing. There's awareness but it's a very difficult issue. >> So that's the hiring part of it, it's bringing more women in. What about the culture too? We were talking earlier too about the supportive environment and supportive leadership. What will it take for a big cultural shift in the technology industry? >> So when I came back, basically this is my story, is I'm from New Zealand originally but I've lived over here, I moved to America in '98 and worked for several different companies, Oracle, Salesforce and thought always hey I wouldn't mind going back home and being closer to my family so we actually moved to Sydney for a year and that's where I worked for Atlassian which was a really interesting experience, but it made me realize that the bay area was home and I think the culture of Silicon Valley is something that you can't get outside of Silicon Valley. >> For better or for worse. >> For better or for worse but again, back to that collaboration, in Sydney there's not that many tech companies, right? So I didn't find that collaboration. These kinds of events were very, very rare and especially in engineering, right? I could meet people who worked for the Google office in Sydney, but they're more in nontechnical roles. I mean, there were some. So when I came back, it was really important for me to find a company that again, as you mentioned, had that high EQ and a really good culture and what I mean by that is not it's got a free lunch. Cloudera has free lunches, but that's not what attracted me to Cloudera. What attracted me to Cloudera was talking to my manager is the SVP of Engineering and my peers are all VPs of Engineering and it was the conversation in the interviews that really were conversations and just very, very respectful and it wasn't all about this is what I do and this is what you must do. It was about a collaborative conversation. And one thing I really got from talking with both my manager and my peers was that they really were out to support each other. And one thing I think is amazing about the culture we have at Cloudera is that what will happen is I'm leading quality, performance, build and infrastructure and quality is at the top of our list at the moment. We can always improve on quality and we had an extraordinary developer in one of my peer's teams who wanted to come and help with quality problems. Now normally what would happen is the development VP might say, "I don't want to leave him." >> Yes, there are silos. >> But he was like, the development VP was, "Well, really sad to lose him, "but this is a much bigger problem and I'm going to help him. "I'm going to help him move." And I think that is a really interesting leaderships style that isn't prevalent throughout Silicon Valley which is I'm going to do what's good for the company and the overall good of the company and just what's right rather than particularly my own. >> Rebecca: My department, my unit. >> My own turf, yeah. And what we want to do at Cloudera is bring that further through the chains because as a company, as it's growing, we've got many different product teams and we want to make sure that that collaboration goes across the development managers, the quality engineering managers to really learn from each other and support each other. Your question is how do we, that to me is very, very important and I think we need to start talking about it and we need to showcase companies that do it well. We've actually gone through one of those personality tests or it wasn't actually a personality test, what drives you whether it's more strategic or problem solving, people are into the process, and I think those are really good things to do so that you can all work to communicate with each other and work with each other. >> You mentioned earlier that one of the things about working in Sydney that struck you is that conferences like this one, the Women Transforming Technology, are rare. Why are they so important do you think? >> Oh right. I've been to the Grace Hopper Conference four times. You're so used to being the minority. You're so used to being the minority and it's fantastic to come to a conference like that where you're not the minority anymore. And I think one thing that's extraordinary, have you been to the Grace Hopper Conference? >> Rebecca: I have, I was there in Houston in October. >> One thing that I find extraordinary about the Grace Hopper is the camaraderie. And you'll be lining up to get a coffee and just the people that you'll start a conversation and I've actually made some really, really great friends from Grace Hopper that I still keep in contact with and it's the networking and oh hang on a minute, she's having the same problem I'm having. >> Are these professional problems that you're facing or are these strategic? >> A bit of both. It could be technical problems. A lot of it's how do I get a team to collaborate on something. It's how do I overcome my imposter syndrome? How do I be a good leader? And the connections you make. I really feel that you can truly be yourself and I love what Cara was just saying before about being authentic and being genuine. I think something like Grace Hopper is somewhere where you can truly, truly feel authentic and genuine. The thing for me is it always gives me a great big confidence. I just feel great after these conferences and I'm inspired to just go back and really continue to move the needle. >> This is a women's conference. It's mostly women attending. If you could send a message to the men of Silicon Valley, what would it be? If you could just gather all of them in a room and say give them some advice about either helping a young woman in her career or just hey fellas know this. >> I think the big advice is listen, right? Were you at the Grace Hopper Conference two years ago? >> Rebecca: No I wasn't, I missed that one. >> I'm not sure if you heard about the male allies panel, but it was interesting because basically there's a male allies panel which was done with all good intention, but it got a lot of flak because why the hell am I flaking about the space and what the people who were on the panel did which was really interesting is they actually created a second panel the next day and said, "Okay, we're going to shut up. "We're going to listen." And it's really quite hard. For all of us in technology, we're all used to solving problems and we want to have our say and to get them to be quiet and listen is so important and not try and solve the problem, just try and understand and Cara was just saying that before, right, about some of the stuff that's going on with Uber and everything is some of the males she talks to say, "But I don't see it." Well of course you don't see it because you're not experiencing it, right? So listen, talk to women and make it very clear that it's a safe space and that you're just here to listen and you're not going to try and solve the problem, but try and get an understanding because they're in a very, very different space than we are. >> The story that's going on with Uber, it is depressing as a woman, as a woman in technology in Silicon Valley particularly just a couple of years after the Ellen Pao lawsuit. Are you hopeful that things will get better? >> I'm hopeful things will get better. It's brave women like Susan who are they telling their stories. We need to support each other and really support people like Susan who were brave enough to say that and obviously now because she's done it, a lot of other people are coming forward and Uber has to take some responsibility and has to do something so I'm hopeful it's getting better because we're talking about it a lot more, but it's a very, very difficult situation and the more we talk about it and there's people who are a lot smarter than me and a lot different, who are very experienced in this kind of social issue to be able to figure out how the hell we address this, but a lot of it is to get the conversation going and as I said to listen. >> If you could give a piece of advice to the younger version of you, that young girl in New Zealand dreaming of a career in technology, you mentioned imposter syndrome, what would you say? >> Getting back to Cara's talk, she talked about don't worry so much about what people think of you. >> Oh that's so hard though, it's so hard. >> And I remember gosh in my early days in my career, I was sitting there and I can't say anything. I really want to say something but I'm going to look stupid and it's like be curious. I think that's my best advice. What I love when I'm interviewing, I've done a lot interviewing of college grads and what I'll do is see what questions they ask so I think you don't have to have all the answers and you don't have to show I'm the best Java programmer there is, but oh tell me about this and I really love that your company does this and how do you approach this kind of problem? And just their thirst for knowledge and that curiosity and their eagerness to learn, I think it's really important to ask questions. And I think that's a good way to get over the imposter syndrome because you're not necessarily coming up as like I'm trying to be an expert on something, it's like I'm trying to contribute to conversation and help me understand and I think it's a really good way to get people out there and getting people talking. >> So be curious, don't care so much what people think of you. >> Josie: Right, right. >> You don't have to be the smartest person at the table. >> And build your network and especially if you see somebody in a meeting that handled a particular situation very well, I think it's really great to be able to go up to them afterwards and say, "Look, I loved how you said that. "Can you maybe chat to me about how you came up with that? "'Cause I'd love to learn from you." There's a lot of this talk about mentorship and I think it's really true that Sheryl Sandberg says it's not really the best way to say, "Could you be my mentor please?" But to actually just say, "I love this." >> Ask for advice. >> Ask for advice and very few women would say, "I don't want to talk about that." Most women are like, "Wow that's great," and want to be able to help out the younger generation. >> Josie Gillan, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a pleasure talking to you. >> Thank you so much. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for theCUBE in our coverage of Women Transforming Technology. We'll be right back. (modern techno music)

(rhythmic music) >> From Phoenix, Arizona, The Cube. At Catalyst Conference, here's your host, Jeff Frick. (rhythmic music) >> Hey, Jeff Frick here with The Cube. We are in Phoenix, Arizona at the Girls Who Code Catalyst Conference It's a great show, about 400 people; they're fourth year. It's going back to the Bay Area next year, so I wanted to come down, talk to some of the key notes, some of the speakers. And really give you a taste if you weren't able to make the trip to Phoenix this year of what's going on. So we're really excited to be joined by our next guest, Fran Maier, she co-founded Match, she co-founded TRUSTe. Serial entrepreneur, the start-up veteran. Fran, welcome. >> Thank you so much Jeff, It's great to be here. >> Absolutely. So you were giving a presentation on really what it is to be a woman entrepreneur. >> Yes, so I've been a internet entrepreneur for now more than twenty years going back to when we started Match.com. And I joined that in late 1994. We really launched around 1995, about 21 years ago, this month, April of 1995. >> Time flies >> And many of the things that were still very much, I think, in the early years of the impact of the internet and mobile and cloud and connectivity on our lives, but Match.com has proven to be what they call a unicorn, a very successful new business model, but more than that many, many people have found their life partner or at least a few good dates on Match.com. So I am always very happy about that. >> And you're way ahead of the curve. Now, I think, I don't know, I've been married for over twenty years, but I think a lot of people that's kind of the first way >> Yeah. to meet people. >> Not the second way. Where when you guys first made Match.com, that was a pretty novel idea. >> Well, well now they call dating where like we used to do it, where you met people at parties and bars, now that's called dating in the wild. >> In the wild (laughing) >> So the more natural thing is using Match.com. But from an entrepreneurial support, I was one of the only women who was involved in starting company in the mid-1990's, still women are less than 10% of TechFounders or venture-backed founders. Women raise a lot less money. And so one of my passions and why I am here at Girls in Tech is to try and impart some of the wisdom gleamed over twenty plus years. >> So what are some of the ways that you see that barrier starting to break down? Is it just, you just got to keep banging on it and slowly and slowly it will move and >> (murmers) >> So I think there's been some difference, I think it's a lot easier to be an entrepreneur of any kind now >> Well that's true. >> than it was twenty years ago. I mean, now having meals delivered to you and the sort of support like Girls in Tech, there was very little of that guidance or certainly there were very few role models, >> Right. >> Twenty years ago. So that certainly has changed. I think another big change, and this is probably over the last two or three years, is that now women feel they can speak out loud about some of the issues. And that there is some, men are willing to listen, >> Right >> Right >> at least some are. >> We still see things like TechCrunch a couple of years ago had a team present a new mobile app called Titstare. We still hear about things like that. We still, there was a survey called The Elephant in Silicon Valley that itemized stories and stats about women and sexual abuse, other kinds of harassment, exclusion, not being invited to sit at the table. So a lot of that stuff is still going on. But I feel like we can call it out a little bit easier. >> Right, right. And it's ... >> Without retribution potentially. >> Is there, is there, kind of a tipping point event, action, that you see potentially as to kind of accelerating ... accelerating it? >> Well I think the media, since lead-in has really kind of picked up on this and discovering it. And the Ellen Pao trial, last year; I spoke a little bit about that, where she brought suit to Kleiner Perkins. She lost the suit, but it started the dialogue. >> Right. >> So I think a lot of this is, is happening and my approach is to try and ... I see, I advise so many start ups. And I see business plans. And almost invariably the business plans from women aren't big enough. They don't say "Hey we're going to be a hundred million dollar company in five years. And we need to raise five million dollars to get there." >> Right. >> Women play it more safe, and, I don't think that, I'm trying to encourage them to take more risk, to figure out how to do it, to play to win. >> Right. Play big to win, right? Playing big. >> Play big to win, yes, swing big. >> It's interesting, on the Lean In, you know Sheryl Sandberg's, I don't know if ground breaking is the right word, but certainly ground breaking. >> Surely, yeah. >> But the Golden State Warriors right now, probably the most popular professional sports team in the country, at the zenith of their success, they have a Lean In commercial. I don't know if you've seen it in the Bay Area, >> I havent seen it! >> where all of the players talk about leaning in. And it just so happens that Steph Curry, their number one superstar, >> Sure. is very close to his wife. She has a cooking show. They're very family orientated. Green ... >> But I thought you were going to ... >> Draymond Green has his mom, who he just constantly just gushes about his mom. And so they, as a male sports team, have a whole commercial they run quite frequently on specifically Lean In. >> Well I, I appreciate that. I also, though, read the article that, that team is owned by bunch of venture capitalists. They all get together and play basketball and it reminded me of a little bit of another place where women have been excluded. And so I was talking to a venture capital friend of mine saying "Buy into the Warriors, or let's buy into a women's soccer team." And you know sports being what they are, it's almost a different thing, but the news about the women's soccer players being paid much less than the men, even though they generate more income. It's just another example, profession by profession where women are paid less or have less opportunity to advance. >> But to your point, I think people understand it, it's not right, but I think everyone pretty much knows that women aren't paid the same as men. But that was interesting about the soccer story, to your point is it was brought up. >> Yeah we could talk about it. >> It wasn't a retribution, right? It's like hey, you know, we're not getting paid and they listed the numbers in Sports Illustrated. They were dramatically different. And, in fact, you know, one of the knocks in the WNBA is that you can't make a living as a player in the WNBA. You just can't. They pay them like, I don't know >> So they should have been. Yeah. >> $60,000. Whatever it is. You know they have to go play in other places, foreign countries to make enough money to live. So I do think its interesting, your point that, you know, the exposure of the problem, the kind of acceptance that we need to do something about it, does seem to be in a much better place than it used to be. >> The other thing that I think that these things illustrate is one of the messages I try and get across, is women tend to settle for too little. You know, they don't necessarily negotiate for themselves. Out of college they don't do as well. They, I've talked to many women who they felt that when they were raising capital, or negotiating deals, that the men on the other side of the table, mostly, not always of course, it sort of said, "Hey this is great, you should be happy to get this. How many women get this?" And that's not really the issue. The issue should be, you should be getting what you deserve. I learned that the hard way, we talked about it a little bit, awhile ago, where Match.com was sold in 1998 for less than $10,000,000. And I was the general manager, I had grown it, we were number one, we were cash flow positive, although probably shouldn't have been. And I walked away with a hundred thousand dollars. And, at the time, sure that's a lot of money, but nobody seemed to encourage me that I probably could have raised the money and led the investment and had an equity round. A year later Match.com was sold from Send It to ISC for $70,000,000. And of course I didn't get anything. >> Yeah. >> So that's my big lesson. The good news is, ten years later, I took TRUSTe, which was a nonprofit, switched it to a for-profit, I raised the capital, and got my ownership in equity position. But tough lesson. >> Yeah, expensive one. >> Yeah. >> But those are the ones you learn though. (laughter) >> I could go through a few of those too. So Fran, we're running low on time. I wanted to give you the last word and get your perspective on, kind of, mentorship and sponsorship. We hear those words tossed around a lot. And that there's a significant difference between just being a mentor and actually being a sponsor, taking an active role in someone else's career. Pushing them to maybe uncomfortable places. Giving them, you know, kind of, the oomph, if you will, that, "Yes you can do this, you do belong." What are you seeing kind of the development of that as people try to help more women ascend, kind of up the line? >> Well, you know, I tend to think of mentorship as something that happens within a company and sponsorship can happen within a company, but advising, sponsoring, promoting, championing, are things that we certainly need to do within the entrepreneurial community of women. So, mentoring is, I see that as a little bit more passive, and I don't know why. But, it's important to have people to look up to and for you, role models are really important. But I think the active thing of championing or sponsoring or even being a more active coach or advisor, is a little bit more hands-on and willing to challenge, you know, you're not just a role model, you're really saying, "Tell me what you're dealing with, and let me see how I can help." I just got off a phone call from one of my advisees, she just raised the money, great news, you know, now she's freaking out about how to spend it. (laughing) >> Maybe with your next problem. >> Yeah. (laughter) >> Been there, done that. >> Right, right. >> You know. >> Well, it's good, good for helpin' them out, and Fran, thanks for taking a few minutes. >> Sure. Lot of fun. >> Absolutely. Track Fran down if you're a budding entrepreneur. She's been there, she's got the scars and the wounds from the early days, and learned from it on the success with TRUSTe. >> Thank you. >> And, some great videos on the web, by the way. I was watching them, the whole story on the Match thing was pretty funny. You'll enjoy it, so take the time ... >> There's one of them where I start to cry, I hate that, but what can you do? >> I didn't get to the crying part, but that's okay. >> Yeah, yeah, that's all right. >> That's what happens in Jerry McGuire all the time. All right, well thanks a lot Fran. >> Thanks so much. >> I'm Jeff Frick, you are watching The Cube. We are in Phoenix, Arizona, at the Girls in Tech Catalyst Conference. (rhythmic music)