>> Live from Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE. Covering Microsoft Ignite brought to you by Cohesity and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone to day two of theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite. We are coming at you from the Orange County Civic Center in Orlando, Florida. I'm your host Rebecca Knight along with my cohost Stu Miniman. We're joined by Patrick Moorhead, he is the founder and president and principal analyst at Moor Insights and Strategy. Thank you so much for coming back on theCUBE. You're an esteemed CUBE-alum. >> Gosh, this is great, can you introduce me on every show please? >> I would be happy to, delighted. So, Patrick, before the cameras were rolling, we were talking about how many, frankly, tech shows you go to a year, you said 40, 45. >> That's about right, I live in Austin but I actually live on a bunch of planes, kind of like you do, right. >> Right, sure, sure, yeah. So this is your 10th time at Ignite, or an Ignite like show, it used to be called Tech Ed, so what are your first quick takes on what this conference, what you're seeing, what you're hearing? >> So, Microsoft has a three layers, like a three-layered cake to their events, you have developers, you have customers, and you have channel. And this is their customer event, so what might seem like rehash or maybe build or inspire is if customers who haven't heard this content before. So it's really about getting them engaged and things like that and, what we've heard, first and foremost is we had 45 Azure announcements but I think the biggest news, was about the open data initiative that, I mean, how often do you have the three CEOs up on stage, where most corporate data sits, with Microsoft, SAP and Adobe, so it was impressive. And that's probably the number one thing so far. >> Okay, let's dissect that a little bit. What are your thoughts, I mean, we're sort of questioning, it's a big idea, >> Right. >> When will customers actually see the benefit and is there a benefit to customers? >> When I look at these big corporate announcements I'm thinking, is this thing paper or is this thing real? How far does it go? I think this is real, when I dug under the covers, in some, bendy NDA things, that I can't give details on, there's meat there for sure, but, where this all starts, is, is two things are going on here, first of all, to do machine learning correctly, you have to have a lot of data, right? Yesterday's big data, is today's machine learning. You have to have it all together, now you can pull in disparate data sources into your enterprise and work on that data, but it takes a lot of cleansing, you know most of the time in machine learning, is getting the data ready to be worked on. What having data interoperability standards means is you can bring it in, you don't have to cleanse it as much and you can do real time analytics and machine learning on it so it's agreement that says, we're all going to come in, if it's customer data, it's going to look like this, with different fields. Now you would think that something like XML could do this, but this is bigger and from a competitive standpoint, I have to ask the big question, where's Salesforce and where's Oracle, they're the two odd-companies out. >> Really interesting, you mention that there were a lot of Azure announcements here, something like 45. I was reading, Corey Sanders had a blog of list and lists and lists and it's typical of what we've seen in the cloud. You and I, we go to AWS re:invents, and it's like let's talk about all the compute instances, all the cool new storage, all the things, there's cheering and, you know, everything for every micro and macro thing that happens there but are there any things that jumped out at you? We had Jeffrey Silver on the program yesterday, he talked about the databoxes, like the Edge and the various versions of those, those seem kind of interesting when we talk about data and movement but anything in the Azure space that got your attention? >> So aside from the databoxes, I was really excited about AutoML. So, three ways you can do ML, you can do everything from scratch, you can take an off-the-shelf API and then you can use something in the middle, which says, kind of like the three bears, right in the middle, Google at GCP announced something like this and so did Azure. And essentially what this is, is it auto-tags your data. It's smart enough to know that this is an image as opposed to you having to start at the very beginning and hand code some data and that's not automatic because the key, so a good example might be an audio machine learning algorithm where, you might need it for an airplane versus a car, versus the factory floor, versus a smart-phone application. Those are all different environments and your algorithm's going to be different but, as an enterprise, you might not have the PhD on staff to be able to do that, but you can't live with the off-the-shelf API. >> There's another thing that kind of struck me, a little bit of dissonance I saw there, you've got a Microsoft surface sitting in front of you, Microsoft, it's gotten into hardware in a lot of places when they talked about their IoT Ps, they're like, we're going to put things out on the edge and then on the other stream it's like, well, but they're open and it's APIs and developers and software, not only Adobe and SAP but the announcement with Red Hat, talking about all they're doing with Linux, how do you reconcile the, I've heard people in Microsoft, we want to completely vertically integrate the stack and that's not something that I hear from the Googles and Amazons of the world, I thought we were kind of past that, no one company can do it all. On the other hand, they're very open and give you choice. How do you look at those pieces? >> This all stems with the slowdown of Moore's Law for general CPU compute. So, as Moore's Law is slowing down, we need to throw different kinds of accelerators at the same problem, to keep innovation going up and to the right at an increasingly faster pace. So people have gone to GPUs and CPUs and almost every one of the big infrastructure players has done that, whether it's Google, Apple, AWS, they all have their own hardware. Part of it is to accelerate time to market, the other is to get a lock-in, I'm still trying to figure out which one this is. Microsoft is saying very clearly in Azure IoT Edge that you can send your data, even if you have their hardware to AWS and GCP and I think enterprises are going to take a quick look. I've been doing this almost 30 years, I've gray hairs to show for it, but you just have to pick your lock-in, right? Enterprise AT always gets locked in and the question is, what you lock in on? If you go with Oracle and then build applications around it you're locked into Oracle. If you go with a certain hardware OEM, you could be locked into a certain OEM with converse infrastructures, so, I think it's just picking the poison, you're going to have some people who are very comfortable with going all Microsoft and you'll have some people who'll want to piece part it together and look to the future We still have people who were brought up on mainframes and they don't want to be there, they want to have flexibility and fluidity. >> One of the things you were talking about with the slow down of Moore's Law, Microsoft and frankly every other technology giant is really trying to stay ahead of the innovation curve. Microsoft, 42 years old, a middle-aged company, and really, in the tech world, a really old company. Is Microsoft effective at this? I mean, do you see, that this is a creative, an ingenuitive, an innovative company? >> Microsoft is one of the only companies that has been able to turn the corner from being aged and experienced, I guess like us, and moving into the new zone and everybody, in everybody's work has had to do that. Analysts used to, I remember getting Gartner and IDC reports on paper, but now it's very different. We're up here on theCUBE, we're on Twitter, we're doing research reports, so everything is changing and Microsoft has had to change too. Five years ago, when Azure hadn't really taken off, they had a billion dollar write-down on surface hardware, bought Nokia, shut Nokia down, you're wondering, wait a second, what really is happening but then Satya came in and, to the company's credit, has completely turned around. I will state though there is a difference between perception and reality, I think a lot of the things that Ballmer had in place were absolutely the right things, I think Satya takes a lot of credit for it, but these things just didn't magically appear when Satya came in. So, a lot of the things they did were right, and it was perceived to be new leadership and therefore they're looking good. >> I love it, 'cause, we had quite a few Microsoft people on the program and a lot of them, 10, 20 years with the company, and they said, it's still the vision that we had but, one articulated it really well, he said, we're even more focused on the customer than ever and that gets me really excited. I want to ask you, when people look at this show, 'cause it's such a broad ecosystem, so many different views, what will they be talking about later in the year? My initial take coming out of it is, I'm a little surprised that we're talking so much about things like Windows 2019 and the Office 365, Microsoft 365, Dynamics 365, obviously it's Microsoft's strength, it's where they've got the most customers but are they operating still relevant in the future? >> I met with the program manager of Windows 29 servers last night, Erin, and she had said that they had 1,300 people they had to turn away from the Windows 2019 server and there was 4,000 people and I flippantly said, oh my gosh, I didn't think Microsoft still did that, it's all as a service, but I was just kidding of course. But I think that that shows the, how long it takes for people to move but I think what we'll be talking about in a year is has Microsoft delivered on its IoT commitments in IoT Azure Central, how much of their business has moved to, I'll call it, on-prem software in a box, to as a service, so, Dynamics 365, Office 365, and then finally I think we're going to see the workflow, and here's something that my head finally went ding on, is, Microsoft's strategy to surround the data and then do workflow on it to supplant Oracle SAP applications around the data. That's what I think we'll be talking about in a year. >> One other specific I wanted to see if you've got some data on because it's something we wanted to understand, Azure Stack, the press, all agog on it for the last couple of years, I really haven't talked to, I've talked to the partners that are working in, you know, people like Intel, Lenovo, and the like that are doing it but I haven't talked to too many customers they've employed service providers, yes, but what are you hearing, what are you seeing, is Azure Stack a big deal or is it just one of the pieces in a multi-cloud data applications strategy that Microsoft has? >> So, Azure Stack is a big deal and I think that it's getting to it's a slow boil, to be honest with you, the company changed hardware strategies, it was first an ODM model and then it went to an OEM model and a very narrow OEM model. The compute requirements to Azure Stack were too big to some people so it's a slow boil, but I look at what has the competition done? Now to be even a public cloud player, you have to have an on-prem capability. With Google it's PKE On-Prem, you have Greengrasss, and Amazon DB that's on-prem sitting on top of Vmware, so hyper-cloud, multi-cloud is a real thing, I just think it's getting a little bit slower start than everybody had thought. >> Great, well Patrick, thank you so much for your insights. These were terrific, it's great having you on the show. >> Thanks for having me. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman, we will have more from theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite in just a little bit. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Santa Clara, in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE. Covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2017. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation and Pivotal. >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman, joined by my cohost John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program, friend of theCUBE, James Watters SVP of Product at Pivotal. James, great to see you, and thanks for helping to get theCUBE to Cloud Foundry Summit. >> Yeah, I was just saying, this is the first time theCUBE is at CF Summit, so we're official now. We're all grown up. We're out in the daylight and you know you made it when theCUBE shows up, so excited to have you here. >> Absolutely. So a lot of things going on. We had Chip on talking about some of the big announcements. >> James: Yeah. >> From Pivotal's standpoint, what's some of the important milestones in releases happening. >> Yeah, I think in the simplest terms, the big new thing came out of our collaboration with Google is called Kubo, which is Kubernetes on BOSH. And I think that was a big move that got a lot of applause in the keynote when it was announced yesterday. And I think it shows two things. One is that Cloud Foundry really is going to embrace multiple ways of deploying artifacts and managing things, and that we're really the cloud native platform and willing to embrace container abstractions, app abstractions, data abstractions pretty uniquely, which is, there hasn't been another platform out there that embraces those with specialized ways of doing them. And I'm really excited about the customer response to that approach. >> Yeah, James, help us unpack that a little bit. So we look at the term seems this year, everybody, it's multi-cloud, we're all talking back-- >> James: Yeah. >> I think back to the days when we talked about platform as a service. One of the pieces was, oh, well, I should be able to have my application and move lots of places. That's what I heard when I talked about Cloud Foundry. When Docker came out everybody was like, oh PAS's dead, Docker's going to do this. When Kubernetes came out, oh wait, this takes the core value of what platform as a service has done. And today you're saying Kubo, Cloud Foundry, and Kubernetes with some BOSH, pulling it all together. Walk us through, 'cause it's nuanced. And there's pieces of that. So help us understand. >> Yeah, I like to say that even though sometimes you have open source communities have their own sense of identity, there's really not a god abstraction in cloud programming. Like there's not one abstraction that does it all. The simplest way you can see that is that people are interested in function as a service today. They're also interested in container as a service. Well, those two are not, they're not compatible. Right, like you don't deploy your whole Docker image to Amazon Lambda, but people are interested in both of those. And then, at the same time, there's this hyper growth of Spring Boot, which is, I think, the most efficient way of doing Java programming in the cloud, which is really at the core of our app abstraction. And so we see people, there's hyper growth, and function as a service, app as a service, especially with Spring Boot, and then also container. And I think the approach that we've had is beause there's not one god abstraction, that our platform needs to embrace all of those. And that actually, it's pretty intuitive, once you start using them, and you get beyond the slides and the buzz words. When to use one versus the other. And I think that's what users have been really excited about, is that Pivotal and Cloud Foundry communities embraced kind of that breadth, in terms of, different approaches to cloud native. Does that make sense to you, John? >> Yeah it's starting to, right? A lot of people like to do all or nothing about everything, right? >> James: Yeah. >> It's all going to be, we're going to be serverless by next year. And that doesn't make any sense at all. >> James: That's right. >> And so you have multiple programming models, like you said, multiple different kinds of abstractions, so when would somebody want to use, say containers, as a service, or container orchestration, versus some of the other application models. >> Yeah, it's a really, really great question. And I just had a really productive customer meeting this morning, where we went through that. They had some no-JS developers, that they said, look, these developers just want to get their code to production. They don't want to think about systems, they don't want to think about operating systems, they don't want to think about clusters. They're just like, here's my app, run it for me. And that's the core trick that Cloud Foundry's done the best of any platform in the world, which is CF Push, and so, for a no-JS developer, here's my app, run it for me, load balance it, health management, log aggregate it, give me quotas on my memory usage, everything. That's a good example of that. Then, they also had a team that was deploying Elasticsearch and some packaged applications. And they needed the level of control that Kubernetes in terms of pods, co-location, full control of a system image, the ability to do networking in certain ways, the ability to control storage. And you don't just take Elasticsearch and say here's my Elasticsearch tarball, run it for me. You actually start to set up a system, and that's where Kubernetes container as a service is perfect. Then the other question is how do you stitch those together, and you've seen the Kubernetes community adopt the Service broker API, the open Service Broker API out of Cloud Foundry, as a common way of saying, oh, I have an Elasticsearch over here, but I want to bind it to an application. Well, they use the CF services API. I think it's early days, but there's actually a coherent fabric forming across these different approaches, and it's also immediately intuitive. Like we didn't know, when we first conceived of adding Kubo to the mix, we didn't know what the educational level of education we have to provide, but it's been intuitive to every client I've talked so far, so that's fun for me to watch you say a few words like, oh, we get it. Yeah, we use that for this and this for this. >> All right, James, I have to up-level it a little bit, there. >> James: Little deep? >> You travel way more than I do. We kind of watch on social media. Prove me wrong, but i can't imagine when you're talking in the C-suite of a Fortune 100, pick your financial, or insurance company, that they are immersed in the languages and platform discussions that the hoodie crowd is. So where are you having those discussions? >> James: Yeah. >> One of the things, I come into the show and say Pivotal and Cloud Foundry are helping customers with that whole digital transformation. >> James: We are. >> And making that reality. So help us with that disconnect of, I'm down in the weeds trying to build this very complex stack, and the C-suite says, I want to be faster. >> I'll tell you what the C-suite has to solve. They've got to solve two things. One is they've got to deliver faster and more efficiently than ever before. That's their language, and our core app abstraction has been killer for digital transformation. Deliver apps faster, find your value line, and approach problems that way. They get that. That's why we've been succeeding economically, that's been a bit hit. But they also have another problem is, they want to retain talent, and when they're trying to retain talent some of those times, those folks are saying, well, we want little bit more control. We want to be able to use a container if we want, or think about something like Spring Cloud Data Flow to do high-end pipelines. And so they do care about having a partner in Pivotal and in Cloud Foundry, they can embrace those new trends. Because they've got to be able to not be completely top down in how they're enabling their organizations, while also encouraging efficiency. And so that's where the message of multiple abstractions really hits home for them, because they don't always want to referee some of the emerging trends and tech, and telling their team what they have to use. So by providing function, app, container, and data service, we can be the one partner that doesn't force that a priori in the discussion. Does that make sense? >> Is there friction ever, when saying, okay here, we've got this platform that actually is rather opinionated versus, hey, go choose everything open source and do whatever you want. I think that there's political boundaries between different parts of organization, this is a lot of what DevOps, I think, as a movement has been so important. Which is saying actually, you need to blur the political boundaries in the organization to get to faster end-to-end throughput and collaboration. So I think that's definitely a reality. At the same time, the ability that we've had to embrace these different approaches allows the level of empowerment that I think is appropriate. Like I think what we've been trying to do is not necessarily cater to a free-for-all, we've been saying, what are the right tools in the tool chest that people need to get their job done. So I think that's been very warmly received. So I guess I'd say that hasn't been a big problem for us. >> I want to ask you about the ecosystem. I think back when the ecosystem started, IBM, HPE, Cisco were big players. I come in this week, and it's Google Cloud, Microsoft Cloud, and Pivotal still is, last time I checked it was what, 70% of the code base created by Pivotal. >> James: I think it's 60 or 55 now. >> The change in the ecosystem what that means, and what that means to kind of open source, open core. >> Yeah, so I think in addition to the Kubo work that we've done, the other big news this week is that Microsoft joined the Cloud Foundry Foundation. So, essentially the largest software company in the world-- >> Wait, wait, Microsoft loves open source, I hear. Did you hear that one? >> They do. >> I know, it's still shocking for a lot of us that have known Microsoft for a long time, don't you think? And I'm not trying to be facetious, they totally are involved, I've talked to lots of Microsoft people. Kudos to them, they're doing a really good job. Even if I look at the big cloud guys and throw in VMware in there, Microsoft is one of the leaders in participating and embracing open source. >> They are and I think Corey Sanders, who got on stage, announced this, he leads the Azure virtual machine service, and a lot of the other Azure services for them, I think that their strategy is they want to run every workload. Like if you talk to Corey about it, he's like, you got workload, we want to be your partner. And I think that's been the change at Microsoft, is once you go into cloud, it's sort of like Pivotal embracing multiple program abstractions, right, once you have a platform you want as much critical mass on it as you can. And I think that's really helped Microsoft embrace the open source community in a very pragmatic way. Because they are a business, a company, right? And I think open source is required to do business in software these days, right, like in a way that it wasn't 10 years ago. As you look at your customer set and multi-cloud, right? From the very beginning multi-cloud was baked into the concept of Cloud Foundry. Like you said, just push, right? >> James: Yeah. >> So what do you see as common patterns? We've talked to folks already who, on-prem. Obviously, you all are running your CF service in partnership, your main one, your partnership with Google, You work with Amazon, what do you see in customer base, right? >> Yeah, so, let me just share a little bit from a good customer. This is a prospect conversation more, like someone who's starting the journey. They were currently running on-prem, on an OpenStack environment, which had some cost of maintenance for them. They were considering also using their vServer environment, to maybe not have to do as much customization of OpenStack. But there were certain geographies that they wanted to get into. They didn't want to build data centers. And what they were confronting was, they'd have to go learn networking and app management on a couple different clouds they wanted to use. And what they liked about our CF Fabric, across that, was that they said, oh, this is one operating model for any of those clouds. And that's the pattern that we see is that companies want to have one cloud operating model while there's five major cloud players today. So like how do those two forces in the market combine? And I think that's where multi-cloud becomes powerful. It's not necessarily multi-cloud for it's own sake, but it is the idea that you can engage and use multiple resources from these different data center providers without having to completely change your whole organization around it. Because taking on, how you run vServer versus OpenStack is different, as you know, right? >> Right, right, and talking about change, right? You and I were together at VMware when you launched this thing. >> James: Yeah. >> And there was a profound kind of conceptual chasm to leap for the VMware operators to figure out what was going on here. >> James: Yeah. >> So in this new world of services operation in multi-cloud, how are you seeing people, how's the adoption going, you just launched, or the foundation's launched its new certification stuff, can you talk a little bit about the new skill set needed, or how you're seeing people, the people formerly known as sys admins are now actually doing cloud operations. >> Well, I'm not sure if you saw Pat Gelsinger's announcement at Dell World, Dell EMC World, about developer-ready infrastructure. And I think this is a critical evolution that our partnership with VMware is more important than ever. Which is they're now saying all of these people that have been doing traditional system administration, you need to now offer developer-ready infrastructure. And this is an infrastructure that all the networking and network micro segmentation rules need to be there, all of the great things that the VMware admins have provided before needs to be there, but it needs to be turnkey for a developer. That developer shouldn't just get what we had and 2009, when you and I were working there together, which is like, here's a virtual machine, go build the rest of the environment. It should look more like, here's my application, run it for me. Here's my container, run it for me. And so what we're seeing is a lot of people upping their game now. To say, oh, the new thing is providing these services for developers 'cause that ties into digital transformation, ties into what the business is doing, ties into productivity. So I'm seeing a Renaissance of sys admins having a whole new set of tools. So that makes me excited. And one of the cool things we're seeing, I'd love to get your opinion on this is, this cool operating ratio of, we've had our clients present. Their administers of Cloud Foundry instances are able to run tens of thousands of apps in containers with two to four to five people. And so now they've got this super power, which is like, hey bring as many of the applications as the business needs to me. I can go run 10,000 app containers with a small team of people with a good lifestyle. To me, that's actually kind of incredible to see that leverage. >> Yeah, I think it's a huge shift, right? 'Cause you aren't setting up the VLANs and the micro segmentation and the rest of the stuff. >> Yeah, it's not all by hand, and so now the idea with our NSX partnership, is I'm really excited about, fun to talk to you about it. We used to work in Building E and have lunch out there, is that when you provision a CF app, we're working with the NSX team that all the segmentation will align with the app permissions. And this is a big deal, because it used to be that the network team and the app team didn't really have a good conduit of communication. So now it's like, okay I'm going to bind my app to this data service. I want NSX to make sure that permission is followed. To me, that's going to be a revolution of getting the app, and the DevOps teams and the networking teams to work together, clearly. So I'm pumped about that. >> Running low on time. A couple of quick questions about Pivotal. Number one is, now that you're doing Kubo, could we expect to see Pivotal join the CNCF? So EMC is is joining the CNCF. We have friendly relations with the CNCF, I don't think that's at all out of the cards. I just know current, I don't have any news on that today. But we've been very friendly with them, and we started working with Google on that, so no immediate plans there, but we'd be open to that, I believe. >> Okay, and secondly, my understanding, the last announcement on revenue, you can't speak to the IPO or anything, James, above your pay grade, but $275 million in billing on PCF, did I get that right? What do you see is kind of the mix of how you're revenued, are you a software company, a services company? The big data versus the cloud piece. How do we look at Pivotal going forward? >> Yeah, what'd I say is I primarily oversee the Cloud Foundry portion of what we do. And services are an incredibly important part of our mix, Pivotal labs. When you think about this developer-ready infrastructure tend, like a lot of the way you organize your developers can change too. So we talked about how the sys admins jobs change. They gets this platform scale, well the developer's job has changed now, too. They have to learn how to do CICD, they've got to learn how to potentially turn around agile requirements from the business on a weekly basis versus every six months. So Pivotal labs has certainly been critical to that mix for us. But PCF in and of itself, has been a very successful software business. And I think, I believe can grow into the billions of dollars a year in software, and that's what kind of keeps me excited about every day. >> All right, James, I want to give you the final word. You speak to so many customers. >> James: A few. >> The whole digital transformation thing, what are you seeing? How do we help customers along that moving faster. >> That's a, it's a big topic. And the thing that's really interesting about what PCF does is, that it helps people change their organizations, not just their technology. And this has certainly happened in the vServer environment, right? Like it would change your organization, but we're even going higher, which is like, how are your developers organized? How operating teams organize. How you think about security. How you think about patching. Like the reason why I agree that it's transformative, is that it's not just a change of technology, it's these new technologies allow you to rebuild your organization end-to-end, of how it delivers business results. And that makes it both a humbling and an exciting time to be in the industry, because I personally, don't have all the answers every time. People ask about organizations and what to do there. Those are complex issues, but I think we've tried to partner with them to go on that journey together. >> Unfortunately, James, we're going to have to leave it there. We will definitely catch up with you at many more events later this year. And we'll be back with more coverage here from the Cloud Foundry Summit 2017. You're watching theCUBE. (techno music)