>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2021-Virtual, brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone to theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2021-Virtual. I'm John Furrier, your host here on theCUBE. We've got Steve Gordon, Director of Product Management, Cloud Platforms at Red Hat. Steve, welcome to theCUBE, good to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Hey John, thanks for having me on, it's great to be back. >> So soon we'll be in real life, I think North America show, this is for the Europe Virtual, I think the North American one might be in person. It's not yet official. We'll hear, but we'll find out, but looking good so far. But thanks for all your collaboration. You guys have been a big part of the CNCF we've been covering on theCUBE, as you know, since the beginning. But, I wanted to get into the Edge conversation that's been going on. And first I want to just get this out there. You guys are sponsoring Edge Day here at KubeCon. I want you to bring that together for us, because this is a big part of what Red Hat's talking about and frankly customers. The Edge is the most explosive growth area. It's got the most complexity, it's crazy. It's got data, it's got everything at the Edge. Everything's happening. How important is Kubernetes to Edge Computing? >> Yeah, it's certainly interesting to be here talking about it now, and having kind of a dedicated Kubernetes Edge Day. I was thinking back earlier, I think it was one of the last in-person KubeCon events I think, if not the last, the San Diego event where there was already kind of a cresting of interest in Edge and kind of topics on the agenda around Edge. And it's just great to see that momentum has continued up to where we are today. And really more and more people not only talking about using Kubernetes for Edge, but actually getting in there and doing it. And I think, when we look at why people are doing that, they're really leaning into some of the things that they saw as strengths of Kubernetes in general, that they're now able to apply to edge computing use cases in terms of what they can actually do in terms of having a common interface to this very powerful platform that you can take to a growing multitude of footprints, be they your public cloud providers, where a lot of people may have started their Kubernetes journey or their own data center, to these edge locations where they're increasingly trying to do processing closer to where they're collecting data, basically. >> You know, when you think about Edge and all the evolution with Cloud Native, what's interesting is Kubernetes is enabling a lot of value. I'd like to get your thoughts. What are you hearing from customers around use cases? I mean, you are doing product management, you've got to document all the features, the wishlist. You have the keys to the kingdom on what's going on over at Red Hat. You know, we're seeing just the amazing connectivity between businesses with hybrid cloud. It's a game changer. Haven't seen this kind of change at this level since the late '80s, early '90s in terms of inflection point impact. This is huge. What are you hearing? >> I think it's really interesting that you use the word connectivity there because one of the first edge computing use cases that I've really been closely involved with and working a lot on, which then grows into the others, is around telecommunications and 5G networking. And the reason we're working with service providers on that adoption of Kubernetes as they build 5G basically as a cloud native platform from the ground up, is they're really leveraging what they've seen with Kubernetes elsewhere and taking that to deliver this connectivity, which is going to be crucial for other use cases. If you think about people whether they're trying to do automotive edge cases, where they're increasingly putting more sensors on the car to make smarter decisions, but also things around the infotainment system using more and more data there as well. If you think about factory edge, all of these use cases build on connectivity as one of the core fundamental things they need. So that's why we've been really zoomed in there with the service providers and our partners, trying to deliver a 5G networking capabilities as fast as we can and the throughput and latency benefits that come with that. >> If you don't mind me asking, I got to just go one step deeper if you don't mind. You mentioned some of these use cases, the connectivity. You know, IoT was the big buzz word, okay IoT. It's an Edge, it's Operational Technology, or it's a dumb endpoint or a node on the network has connectivity. It's got power. It's a purpose built device. It's operating, it's getting surveillance data, whatever the hell it's doing, right. It's got Edge. Now you're bringing in more intelligent, which is an IT kind of thing, state, databases, caching. Is the database too slow? Is it too fast? So again, it brings up more complexity. Can you just talk about how you view that? Because this is what I'm hearing, what do you think? >> Yeah, I agree. I think there's a real spectrum, when we talk about edge computing, both in terms of the footprints and the locations, and the various constraints that each of those imply. And sometimes those strengths can be, as you're talking about as a specially designed board which has a very specific chip on it, has very specific memory and storage constraints or it can be a literal physical constraint in terms of I only have this much space in this location to actually put something, or that space is subject to excess heat or other considerations environmentally. And I think when we look at what we're trying to provide, not just with Kubernetes but also with Linux, is a variety of solutions that can help people no matter where they are along that spectrum of the smallest devices where maybe Red Hat Enterprise Linux, or REL for Edge is suitable to those use cases where maybe there's a little more flexibility in terms of, what are the workloads I might want to run on that in the future? Or how do I want to grow that environment potentially in the future as well? If I want to add nodes, then all of a sudden, the capability that nannies brings can be a more flexible building base for them to start with. >> So with all of these use cases and the changing dynamics and the power dynamics between Operational Technology in IT, which we're kind of riffing on, what should developers take away from that when they're considering their development, whether they just want an app, be app developers, programming the infrastructure or they're tinkering with the underlying, some database work, or if they're under the hood kind of full dev ops? What should developers take into consideration for all these new use cases? >> Yeah, I think one of the key things is that we're trying to minimize the impact to the developer as much as we can. Now of course, with an edge computing use case where you may be designing your application specifically for that board or device, then that's a more challenging proposition. But there's also the case increasingly where that intelligence already exists in the application somewhere, whether it's in the data center or in the cloud, and they're just trying to move it closer to that endpoint, where the actual data is collected. And that's where I think there's a really powerful story in terms of being able to use Kubernetes and OpenShift as that interface that the application developer interacts with but can use that same interface, whether they're running in the cloud maybe for development purposes, but also when they take it to production and it's running somewhere else. >> I got to ask you the AI impact because every conversation I have or everyone I interview that's an expert as a practitioner is usually something along the lines of chief architect of cloud and AI. You're seeing a lot of cloud, SRE, cloud-scale architects meeting and also running the AI piece, especially in industries. So AI as a certain component seems to be resonating from a functional persona standpoint. People who are doing these transformations tend to have cloud and AI responsibility. Is that a fluke or is that just the pattern that's real? >> No, I think that's very real. And I think when you look at AI and machine learning and how it works, it's very data centric in terms of what is the data I'm collecting, sending back to the mothership, maybe in terms of actually training my model. But when I actually go to processing something, I want to make that as close as I can to the actual data collection, so that I can minimize what I'm trying to send back. Particularly, people may not be as cognizant of it, but even today, many times we're talking about sites where that connectivity is actually fairly limited in some of these edge use cases still today. So what you're actually putting over the pipe is something you're still trying to minimize, while trying to advance your business and improve your agility, by making these decisions closer to the edge. >> What's the advantage for Red Hat? Talk about the benefits. What are you guys bringing to the table? Obviously, hybrid cloud is the new shift. Everyone's agreed to that. I mean, pretty much the consensus is public clouds, great, been there, done that. It's out there pumping out as a resource, but now enterprise is goading us to keep stuff on premises, especially when you talk about factories or whatever, on premises, things that they might need, stuff on premise. So it's clear hybrid is happening. Everyone's in agreement. What does Red Hat bring to the table? What's in it for the customer? >> Yeah, I think I would say hybrid is really an evolving at the moment in terms of, I think, Hybrid has kind of gone through this transition where, first of all, it was maybe moving from my data center to public cloud and I'm managing most of those through that transition, and maybe I'm (indistinct) public clouds. And now we're seeing this transition where it's almost that some of that processing is moving back out again closer to the use case of the data. And that's where we really see as an extension of our existing hybrid cloud story, which is simply to say that we're trying to provide a consistent experience and interface for any footprint, any location, basically. And that's where OpenShift is a really powerful platform for doing this. But also, it's got Kubernetes at the heart of it. but it's also worth considering when we look at Kubernetes, is there's this entire Cloud Native ecosystem around it. And that's an increasingly crucial part of why people are making these decisions as well. It's not just Kubernetes itself, but all of those other projects both directly in the CNCF ecosystem itself, but also in that broader CNCF landscape of projects which people can leverage, and even if they don't leverage them today, know they have options out there for when they need to change in the future if they have a new need for their application. >> Yeah, Steve, I totally agree with you. And I want to just get your thoughts on this because I was kind of riffing with Brian Gracely who works at Red Hat on your team. And he was saying that, you know, we were talking about KubeCon + CloudNativeCon as the name of the conference. He's a little bit more CloudNativeCon this year than KubeCon, inferring, implying, and saying that, okay so what about Kubernetes, Kubernetes, Kubernetes? Now it's like, whoa, CloudNative is starting to come to the table, which shows the enablement of Kubernetes. That was our point. The point was, okay, if Kubernetes does its job as creating a lever, some leverage to create value and that's being rendered in CloudNative, and that enterprise is, not the hardcore hyperscalers and/or the early adopters, I call it classic enterprise, are coming in. They're contributing to open source as participants, and they're harvesting the value in creating CloudNative. What's your reaction to that? And can you share your perspective on there's more CloudNative going on than ever before? >> Yeah, I certainly think, you know, we've always thought from the beginning of OpenShift that it was about more than just Linux and Kubernetes and even the container technologies that came before them from the point of view of, to really build a fully operational and useful platform, you need more than just those pieces. That's something that's been core to what we've been trying to build from the beginning. But it's also what you see in the community is people making those decisions as well, as you know, what are these pieces I need, whether it's fairly fundamental infrastructure concerns like logging and monitoring, or whether it's things like trying to enable different applications on top using projects like KubeVert for virtualization, Istio for service mesh and so on. You know, those are all considerations that people have been making gradually. I think what you're seeing now is there's a growing concern in some of these areas within that broad CNCF landscape in terms of, okay, what is the right option for each of these things that I need to build the platform? And certainly, we see our role is to guide customers to those solutions, but it's also great to see that consensus emerging in the communities that we care about, like the CNCF. >> Great stuff. Steve, I got to ask you a final question here. As you guys innovate in the open, I know your roadmaps are all out there in the open. And I got to ask you, product managing is about making decisions about what you what you work on. I know there's a lot of debates. Red Hat has a culture of innovation and engineering, so there's heated arguments, but you guys align at the end of the day. That's kind of the culture. What's top of mind, if someone asks you, "Hey, Steve, bottom line, I'm a Red Hat customer. I'm going full throttle as a hybrid. We're investing. You guys have the cloud platforms, what's in it for me? What's the bottom line?" What do you say? >> Yeah, I think the big thing for us is, you know, I talked about that this is extending the hybrid cloud to the edge. And we're certainly very conscious that we've done a great job at addressing a number of footprints that are core to the way people have done computing today. And now as we move to the edge, that there's a real challenge to go and address more of those footprints. And that's, whether it's delivering OpenShift on a single node of itself, but also working with cloud providers on their edge solutions, as they move further out from the cloud as well. So I think that's really core to the mission is continuing to enable those footprints so that we can be true to that mission of delivering a platform that is consistent across any footprint at any location. And certainly that's core to me. I think the other big trend that we're tracking and really continuing to work on, you know, you talked about AI machine learning, the other other space we really see kind of continuing to develop and certainly relevant in the work with the telecommunications companies I do but also increasingly in the accelerator space where there's really a lot of new and very interesting things happening with hardware and silicon, whether it be kind of FPGAs, EA6, and even the data processing units, lots of things happening in that space that I think are very interesting and going to be key to the next three to five years. >> Yeah, and software needs to run on hardware. Love your tagline there. It sounds like a nice marketing slogan. Any workload, any footprint, any location. (laughs) Hey, DevSecOps, you got to scale it up. So good job. Thank you very much for coming on. Steve Gordon, Director of Product Management, Clout Platforms, Red Hat, Steve, thanks for coming on. >> Thanks, John, really appreciate it. >> Okay, this is theCUBE coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2021 Europe Virtual. I'm John Furrier, your host from theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (serene music)

>> From around the globe, it's theCUBE, with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2021 Virtual. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Hello, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon 2021 CloudNativeCon Europe Virtual, I'm John Furrier your host, preview with Brian Gracely from Red Hat Senior Director Product Strategy Cloud Business Unit Brian Gracely great to see you. Former CUBE host CUBE alumni, big time strategist at Red Hat, great to see you, always great. And also the founder of Cloudcast which is an amazing podcast on cloud, part of the cloud (indistinct), great to see you Brian. Hope's all well. >> Great to see you too, you know for years, theCUBE was always sort of the ESPN of tech, I feel like, you know ESPN has become nothing but highlights. This is where all the good conversation is. It's theCUBE has become sort of the the clubhouse of tech, if you will. I know that's that's an area you're focused on, so yeah I'm excited to be back on and good to talk to you. >> It's funny you know, with all the events going away loved going out extracting the signal from the noise, you know, game day kind of vibe. CUBE Virtual has really expanded, so it's been so much more fun because we can get more people easy to dial in. So we're going to keep that feature post COVID. You're going to hear more about theCUBE Virtual hybrid events are going to be a big part of it, which is great because as you know and we've talked about communities and ecosystems are huge advantage right now it's been a big part of the Red Hat story. Now part of IBM bringing that mojo to the table the role of ecosystems with hybrid cloud is so critical. Can you share your thoughts on this? Because I know you study it, you have podcasts you've had one for many years, you understand that democratization and this new direct to audience kind of concept. Share your thoughts on this new ecosystem. >> Yeah, I think so, you know, we're sort of putting this in the context of what we all sort of familiarly call KubeCon but you know, if we think about it, it started as KubeCon it was sort of about this one technology but it's always been CloudNativeCon and we've sort of downplayed the cloud native part of it. But even if we think about it now, you know Kubernetes to a certain extent has kind of, you know there's this feeling around the community that, that piece of the puzzle is kind of boring. You know, it's 21 releases in, and there's lots of different offerings that you can get access to. There's still, you know, a lot of innovation but the rest of the ecosystem has just exploded. So it's, you know, there are ecosystem partners and companies that are working on edge and miniaturization. You know, we're seeing things like Kubernetes now getting into outer space and it's in the space station. We're seeing, you know, Linux get on Mars. But we're also seeing, you know, stuff on the other side of the spectrum. We're sort of seeing, you know awesome people doing database work and streaming and AI and ML on top of Kubernetes. So, you know, the ecosystem is doing what you'd expect it to do once one part of it gets stable. The innovation sort of builds on top of it. And, you know, even though we're virtual, we're still seeing just tons and tons of contributions, different companies different people stepping up and leading. So it's been really cool to watch the last few years. >> Yes, interesting point about the CloudNativeCon. That's an interesting insight, and I totally agree with you. And I think it's worth double clicking on. Let me just ask you, because when you look at like, say Kubernetes, okay, it's enabled a lot. Okay, it's been called the dial tone of Cloud native. I think Pat Gelsinger of VMware used that term. We call it the kind of the interoperability layer it enables more large scale deployments. So you're seeing a lot more Kubernetes enablement on clusters. Which is causing more hybrid cloud which means more Cloud native. So it actually is creating a network effect in and of itself with more Cloud native components and it's changing the development cycle. So the question I want to ask you is one how does a customer deal with that? Because people are saying, I like hybrid. I agree, Multicloud is coming around the corner. And of course, Multicloud is just a subsystem of resource underneath hybrid. How do I connect it all? Now I have multiple vendors, I have multiple clusters. I'm cross-cloud, I'm connecting multiple clouds multiple services, Kubernetes clusters, some get stood up some gets to down, it's very dynamic. >> Yeah, it's very dynamic. It's actually, you know, just coincidentally, you know, our lead architect, a guy named Clayton Coleman, who was one of the Kubernetes founders, is going to give a talk on sort of Kubernetes is this hybrid control plane. So we're already starting to see the tentacles come out of it. So you know how we do cross cloud networking how we do cross cloud provisioning of services. So like, how do I go discover what's in other clouds? You know and I think like you said, it took people a few years to figure out, like how do I use this new thing, this Kubernetes thing. How do I harness it. And, but the demand has since become "I have to do multi-cloud." And that means, you know, hey our company acquires companies, so you know, we don't necessarily know where that next company we acquire is going to run. Are they going to run on AWS? Are they going to, you know, run on Azure I've got to be able to run in multiple places. You know, we're seeing banking industries say, "hey, look cloud's now a viable target for you to put your applications, but you have to treat multiple clouds as if they're your backup domains." And so we're, you know, we're seeing both, you know the way business operates whether it's acquisitions or new things driving it. We're seeing regulations driving hybrid and multi-cloud and, even you know, even if the stalwart were to you know, set for a long time, well the world's only going to be public cloud and sort of you know, legacy data centers even those folks are now coming around to "I've got to bring hybrid to, to these places." So it's been more than just technology. It's been, you know, industries pushing it regulations pushing it, a lot of stuff. So, but like I said, we're going to be talking about kind of our future, our vision on that, our future on that. And, you know Red Hat everything we end up doing is a community activity. So we expect a lot of people will get on board with it >> You know, for all the old timers out there they can relate to this. But I remember in the 80's the OSI Open Systems Interconnect, and I was chatting with Paul Cormier about this because we were kind of grew up through that generation. That disrupted network protocols that were proprietary and that opened the door for massive, massive growth massive innovation around just getting that interoperability with TCP/IP, and then everything else happened. So Kubernetes does that, that's a phenomenal impact. So Cloud native to me is at that stage where it's totally next-gen and it's happening really fast. And a lot of people getting caught off guard, Brian. So you know, I got to to ask you as a product strategist, what's your, how would you give them the navigation of where that North star is? If I'm a customer, okay, I got to figure out where I got to navigate now. I know it's super volatile, changing super fast. What's your advice? >> I think it's a couple of pieces, you know we're seeing more and more that, you know, the technology decisions don't get driven out of sort of central IT as much anymore right? We sort of talk all the time that every business opportunity, every business project has a technology component to it. And I think what we're seeing is the companies that tend to be successful with it have built up the muscle, built up the skill set to say, okay, when this line of business says, I need to do something new and innovative I've got the capabilities to sort of stand behind that. They're not out trying to learn it new they're not chasing it. So that's a big piece of it, is letting the business drive your technology decisions as opposed to what happened for a long time which was we built out technology, we hope they would come. You know, the other piece of it is I think because we're seeing so much push from different directions. So we're seeing, you know people put technology out at the edge. We're able to do some, you know unique scalable things, you know in the cloud and so forth That, you know more and more companies are having to say, "hey, look, I'm not, I'm not in the pharmaceutical business. I'm not in the automotive business, I'm in software." And so, you know the companies that realize that faster, and then, you know once they sort of come to those realizations they realize, that's my new normal, those are the ones that are investing in software skills. And they're not afraid to say, look, you know even if my existing staff is, you know, 30 years of sort of history, I'm not afraid to bring in some folks that that'll break a few eggs and, you know, and use them as a lighthouse within their organization to retrain and sort of reset, you know, what's possible. So it's the business doesn't move. That's the the thing that drives all of them. And it's, if you embrace it, we see a lot of success. It's the ones that, that push back on it really hard. And, you know the market tends to sort of push back on them as well. >> Well we're previewing KubeCon CloudNativeCon. We'll amplify that it's CloudNativeCon as well. You guys bought StackRox, okay, so interesting company, not an open source company they have soon to be, I'm assuring, but Advanced Cluster Security, ACS, as it's known it's really been a key part of Red Hat. Can you give us the strategy behind that deal? What does that product, how does it fit in that's a lot of people are really talking about this acquisition. >> Yeah so here's the way we looked at it, is we've learned a couple of things over the last say five years that we've been really head down in Kubernetes, right? One is, we've always embedded a lot of security capabilities in the platform. So OpenShift being our core Kubernetes platform. And then what's happened over time is customers have said to us, "that's great, you've made the platform very secure" but the reality is, you know, our software supply chain. So the way that we build applications that, you know we need to secure that better. We need to deal with these more dynamic environments. And then once the applications are deployed they interact with various types of networks. I need to better secure those environments too. So we realized that we needed to expand our functionality beyond the core platform of OpenShift. And then the second thing that we've learned over the last number of years is to be successful in this space, it's really hard to take technology that wasn't designed for containers, or it wasn't designed for Kubernetes and kind of retrofit it back into that. And so when we were looking at potential acquisition targets, we really narrowed down to companies whose fundamental technologies were you know, Kubernetes-centric, you know having had to modify something to get to Kubernetes, and StackRox was really the leader in that space. They really, you know have been the leader in enterprise Kubernetes security. And the great thing about them was, you know not only did they have this Kubernetes expertise but on top of that, probably half of their customers were already OpenShift customers. And about 3/4 of their customers were using you know, native Kubernetes services and other clouds. So, you know, when we went and talked to them and said, "Hey we believe in Kubernetes, we believe in multi-cloud. We believe in open source," they said, "yeah, those are all the foundational things for us." And to your point about it, you know, maybe not being an open source company, they actually had a number of sort of ancillary projects that were open source. So they weren't unfamiliar to it. And then now that the acquisition's closed, we will do what we do with every piece of Red Hat technology. We'll make sure that within a reasonable period of time that it's made open source. And so you know, it's good for the community. It allows them to keep focusing on their innovation. >> Yeah you've got to get that code out there cool. Brian, I'm hearing about Platform Plus what is that about? Take us through that. >> Yeah, so you know, one of the things that our customers, you know, have come to us over time is it's you know, it's like, I've been saying kind of throughout this discussion, right? Kubernetes is foundational, but it's become pretty stable. The things that people are solving for now are like, you highlighted lots and lots of clusters, they're all over the place. That was something that our advanced cluster management capabilities were able to solve for people. Once you start getting into lots of places you've got to be able to secure things everywhere you go. And so OpenShift for us really allows us to bundle together, you know, sort of the complete set of the portfolio. So the platform, security management, and it also gives us the foundational pieces or it allows our customers to buy the foundational pieces that are going to help them do multi and hybrid cloud. And, you know, when we bundle that we can save them probably 25% in terms of sort of product acquisition. And then obviously the integration work we do you know, saves a ton on the operational side. So it's a new way for us to, to not only bundle the platform and the technologies but it gets customers in a mindset that says, "hey we've moved past sort of single environments to hybrid and multi-cloud environments. >> Awesome, well thanks for the update on that, appreciate it. One of the things going into KubeCon, and that we're watching closely is this Cloud native developer action. Certainly end users want to get that in a separate section with you but the end user contribution, which is like exploding. But on the developer side there's a real trend towards adding stronger consistency programmability support for more use cases okay. Where it's becoming more of a data platform as a requirement. >> Brian: Right. >> So how, so that's a trend so I'm kind of thinking, there's no disagreement on that. >> Brian: No, absolutely. >> What does that mean? Like I'm a customer, that sounds good. How do I make that happen? 'Cause that's the critical discussion right now in the DevOps, DevSecOps day, two operations. What you want to call it. This is the number one concern for developers and that solution architect, consistency, programmability more use cases with data as a platform. >> Yeah, I think, you know the way I kind of frame this up was you know, for any for any organization, the last thing you want to to do is sort of keep investing in lots of platforms, right? So platforms are great on their surface but once you're having to manage five and six and, you know 10 or however many you're managing, the economies of scale go away. And so what's been really interesting to watch with Kubernetes is, you know when we first got started everything was Cloud native application but that really was sort of, you know shorthand for stateless applications. We quickly saw a move to, you know, people that said, "Hey I can modernize something, you know, a Stateful application and we add that into Kubernetes, right? The community added the ability to do Stateful applications and that got people a certain amount of the way. And they sort of started saying, okay maybe Kubernetes can help me peel off some things of an existing platform. So I can peel off, you know Java workloads or I can peel off, what's been this explosion is the data community, if you will. So, you know, the TensorFlows the PItorches, you know, the Apache community with things like Couchbase and Kafka, TensorFlow, all these things that, you know maybe in the past didn't necessarily, had their own sort of underlying system are now defaulting to Kubernetes. And what we see because of that is, you know people now can say, okay, these data workloads these AI and ML workloads are so important to my business, right? Like I can directly point to cost savings. I can point to, you know, driving innovation and because Kubernetes is now their default sort of way of running, you know we're seeing just sort of what used to be, you know small islands of clusters become these enormous footprints whether they're in the cloud or in their data center. And that's almost become, you know, the most prevalent most widely used use case. And again, it makes total sense. It's exactly the trends that we've seen in our industry, even before Kubernetes. And now people are saying, okay, I can consolidate a lot of stuff on Kubernetes. I can get away from all those silos. So, you know, that's been a huge thing over the last probably year plus. And the cool thing is we've also seen, you know the hardware vendors. So whether it's Intel or Nvidia, especially around GPUs, really getting on board and trying to make that simpler. So it's not just the software ecosystem. It's also the hardware ecosystem, really getting on board. >> Awesome, Brian let me get your thoughts on the cloud versus the power dynamics between the cloud players and the open source software vendors. So what's the Red Hat relationship with the cloud players with the hybrid architecture, 'cause you want to set up the modern day developer environment, we get that right. And it's hybrid, what's the relationship with the cloud players? >> You know, I think so we we've always had two philosophies that haven't really changed. One is, we believe in open source and open licensing. So you haven't seen us look at the cloud as, a competitive threat, right? We didn't want to make our business, and the way we compete in business, you know change our philosophy in software. So we've always sort of maintained open licenses permissive licenses, but the second piece is you know, we've looked at the cloud providers as very much partners. And mostly because our customers look at them as partners. So, you know, if Delta Airlines or Deutsche Bank or somebody says, "hey that cloud provider is going to be our partner and we want you to be part of that journey, we need to be partners with that cloud as well." And you've seen that sort of manifest itself in terms of, you know, we haven't gone and set up new SaaS offerings that are Red Hat offerings. We've actually taken a different approach than a lot of the open source companies. And we've said we're going to embed our capabilities, especially, you know OpenShift into AWS, into Azure into IBM cloud working with Google cloud. So we'd look at them very much as a partner. I think it aligns to how Red Hat's done things in the past. And you know, we think, you know even though it maybe easy to sort of see a way of monetizing things you know, changing licensing, we've always found that, you've got to allow the ecosystem to compete. You've got to allow customers to go where they want to go. And we try and be there in the most consumable way possible. So that's worked out really well for us. >> So I got to bring up the end user participation component. That's a big theme here at KubeCon going into it and around the event is, and we've seen this trend happen. I mean, Envoy, Lyft the laying examples are out there. But they're more end-use enterprises coming in. So the enterprise class I call classic enterprise end user participation is at an all time high in opensource. You guys have the biggest portfolio of enterprises in the business. What's the trend that you're seeing because it used to be limited to the hyperscalers the Lyfts and the Facebooks and the big guys. Now you have, you know enterprises coming in the business model is working, can you just share your thoughts on CloudNativeCons participation for end users? >> Yeah, I think we're definitely seeing a blurring of lines between what used to be the Silicon Valley companies were the ones that would create innovation. So like you mentioned Lyft, or, you know LinkedIn doing Kafka or Twitter doing you know, whatever. But as we've seen more and more especially enterprises look at themselves as software companies right. So, you know if you talk about, you know, Ford or Volkswagen they think of themselves as a software company, almost more than they think about themselves as a car company, right. They're a sort of mobile transportation company you know, something like that. And so they look at themselves as I've got to I've got to have software as an expertise. I've got to compete for the best talent, no matter where that talent is, right? So it doesn't have to be in Detroit or in Germany or wherever I can go get that anywhere. And I think what they really, they look for us to do is you know, they've got great technology chops but they don't always understand kind of the the nuances and the dynamics of open-source right. They're used to having their own proprietary internal stuff. And so a lot of times they'll come to us, not you know, "Hey how do we work with the project?" But you know like here's new technology. But they'll come to us and they'll say "how do we be good, good stewards in this community? How do we make sure that we can set up our own internal open source office and have that group, work with communities?" And so the dynamics have really changed. I think a lot of them have, you know they've looked at Silicon Valley for years and now they're modeling it, but it's, you know, for us it's great because now we're talking the same language, you know we're able to share sort of experiences we're able to share best practices. So it is really, really interesting in terms of, you know, how far that whole sort of software is eating the world thing is materialized in sort of every industry. >> Yeah and it's the workloads of expanding Cloud native everywhere edge is blowing up big time. Brian, final question for you before we break. >> You bet. >> Thanks for coming on and always great to chat with you. It's always riffing and getting the data out too. What's your expectation for KubeCon CloudNativeCon this year? What are you expecting to see? What highlights do you expect will come out of CloudNativeCon KubeCon this year? >> Yeah, I think, you know like I said, I think it's going to be much more on the Cloud native side, you know we're seeing a ton of new communities come out. I think that's going to be the big headline is the number of new communities that are, you know have sort of built up a following. So whether it's Crossplane or whether it's, you know get-ops or whether it's, you know expanding around the work that's going on in operators we're going to see a whole bunch of projects around, you know, developer sort of frameworks and developer experience and so forth. So I think the big thing we're going to see is sort of this next stage of, you know a thousand flowers are blooming and we're going to see probably a half dozen or so new communities come out of this one really strong and you know the trends around those are going to accelerate. So I think that'll probably be the biggest takeaway. And then I think just the fact that the community is going to come out stronger after the pandemic than maybe it did before, because we're learning you know, new ways to work remotely, and that, that brings in a ton of new companies and contributors. So I think those two big things will be the headlines. And, you know, the state of the community is strong as they, as they like to say >> Yeah, love the ecosystem, I think the values are going to be network effect, ecosystems, integration standards evolving very quickly out in the open. Great to see Brian Gracely Senior Director Product Strategy at Red Hat for the cloud business unit, also podcasts are over a million episode downloads for the cloud cast podcast, thecloudcast.net. What's it Brian, what's the stats now. >> Yeah, I think we've, we've done over 500 shows. We're you know, about a million and a half listeners a year. So it's, you know again, it's great to have community followings and, you know, and meet people from around the world. So, you know, so many of these things intersect it's a real pleasure to work with everybody >> You're going to create a culture, well done. We're all been there, done that great job. >> Thank you >> Check out the cloud cast, of course, Red Hat's got the great OpenShift mojo going on into KubeCon. Brian, thanks for coming on. >> Thanks John. >> Okay so CUBE coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon Europe 2021 Virtual, I'm John Furrier with theCUBE virtual. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)