>> Narrator: From Austin, Texas. It's theCUBE, covering KubeKon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to our live exclusive coverage of the CloudNative Conference and KubeKon, put on by the Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconAngle Media. My co-host Stu Miniman, we're here breaking down all the action in the tsunami of open source developers, a renaissance of software development. As you know I've been talking about our next guest. We're excited to have Kelsey Hightower, who's the co-chair of the committee here for the program for this awesome conference that's exploding, but is also a staff engineer at Google, known in the industry as a very active participant. Kelsey, great to have you on. >> Awesome, happy to be here, feel like I've made it now. >> Well, not really, you make it every day on Twitter, we follow you, I mean, you've been an active voice, and it's been fun to watch this community. We've been present at the creation of KubeKon, and we've been watching the evolution, really kind of, the, it's like jello that kind of forms in the refrigerator. A couple years ago, you saw it come together, containers, microservices, the drive or the tailwind for now Kubernetes orchestration opportunity, it's changed the game. What is the bottom line? How is Kubernetes, because, everything was all about containerization, that was going to change the world, but it kind of did, but it's evolving. What's so important about Kubernetes? >> I think Kubernetes is really an actual thing you can use that takes all the ideas we've been working on for the last 20 years, and just gives us a new starting point. So, less about changing the game, but actually making the game available to everybody, right. So, we always talk about containers as this revolution, but you think about containers as more like, let's take VMs and make them faster to use, shrink them down, and then the configuration management world of deploying those things, Kubernetes wraps all that hard-to work into a single thing, and if you start there it feels like you just leapfrog where you were. >> Kelsey, I want to ask on that, so much we get excited about, you know, the cool little tool, but it's about the patterns, it's about what I can build with it. When I look at this community, you know, that boring infrastructure stuff is important, but it's about building the applications and what I can do with it that we seem to really see coming out of this event. >> Yeah, Kubernetes represents the experience of like the Red Hats, the CoreOS's, the Googles of the world into a thing you use. So when I talk about Kubernetes, is like when we solve a new problem, just like in Linux, it rolls back into the platform, but it covers this big problem set that almost anyone writing software has, and I think this is why the traction of Kubernetes is so big so fast. >> So many successes, I mean, I just love watching the tech evolution. Uber, Lyft, Netflix, building scale software on open source. And there are a lot of success stories. Two things jumped out at me in the keynote. Pluggable architectures and service meshes, two dynamics that are pretty instrumental and part of it. It sounds intoxicating and it's cool, but then if I'm just a practitioner out there, and like, all the other stuff I'm used to is hard, what about security and storage? So, there is a lot of other things that are important to customers, the blocking and tackling, storage networking, whatever, and then new things are coming to the table. So you've got new vocabulary, new concepts, combined with the existing, pre-existing, old guard concepts like storage, networking. How does that, how do you connect that? So, for the person who's running IT, or the CIO or the person doing technical architecture in a large, big IT department or company, they got to grok this. How do they figure it out, how do you dissect it? >> So the problems didn't change. Your app takes input, does something, produces output. About 30 years in the making now, that doesn't change. Kubernetes doesn't change that, containers doesn't change that. So I think all this stuff, if you look at what you've been building your whole career, all the bash scripts, all the tools that you brought in, their whole goal was to let you focus on building those applications. We've taken all of those things, realized what the patterns were, so if you look at Kubernetes and you lay out OS on top of all the storage, the compute and the networking and just says hey, here's a new set of primitives, and we're going to make it easy to consume those. And then the next level on top of that, security, is inherently baked in for the most part. So, I used to work in finance. When you look it and say, what's running? Most people can't answer that question. Not easily, or with a straight face. In Kubernetes, we have a declarative object that tells you, these are the things running, they were started at this time by this person. That's what you get by default, even though we don't talk about it as a security primitive, it totally is. >> How, hold on, so declarative continues innovation and integration, how is, why is that important? Does that speak to the distributed nature of it? I mean, why is declarative piece so important? >> So, distributed, I think a lot of times people have been dealing with distributed systems for a long time without understanding how to actually deal with the patterns. So we've just been doing it badly. Once you add more than one machine to your stack, you now have a distributed system. But we've been able to deal with this with like the meet cloud, through a bunch of people at it, right. And everyone just deals with their subsection of the servers. Now we're just laying a thing that lets you treat it like one, single machine, that's how we now start to think about this new problem. So, once you start to have that kind of, those primitives at your disposal, it just changes the way you tackle this particular problem. So, I'm not sure that this is like a whole new mind shift required. It's just that now you can just rebase, right. Like with the mobile phone, you're not necessarily writing apps at the very low level anymore, you're writing way up here with a bunch of new abstractions. >> So you brought up security hits. You know, one of the hot button topics, you know there's the low level, like, wait, do I put it in a VM, or do I do it at the container level, you know, what do you see as kind of the state of security in this space. What do we still need to do? >> There's two levels of this, right. There's the security in my app, so no matter how great Kubernetes gets, no matter how great we do at the very low level of like, this container shouldn't do these things, you still have this layer where your app will set requests from your users, and more than likely, that's where your problems are going to be. No one's doing brute force anymore, I'm just going to come in, on the port that your security team opened, and I'm going to abuse your app, because there's probably some hidden behavior that you are unaware of. So that level of security, we hope that that industry starts to have more people focus at that real value layer, than the stuff down here. So Kubernetes may take care of this down here, so we talk about the declarative piece. I know that this is what's running on these machines, and I can be assured of it, you can actually assert things, and that's part of security. Is it working the way you intended it to work? >> So it decouples security, is what you're saying. Do it, keep it at the declarative level, infrastructure, let the app guys fend for themselves, or is that. >> It's more it's like, let's make it easy to do the right thing. Kubernetes doesn't solve all the problems, but the problems it does solve we make security just be a built-in primitive. >> That's a good argument, it should solve its own problem, not try to do too much. >> But the pattern's now, we start talking about security, if you think about Istio, that goes a little bit higher up the security stack, it also takes a declarative approach. So when you say only these apps can talk to each other, you can declare that, and let the system do the enforcement rather than people. >> Okay I got to give you kind of the question on demographics shift in the developer community here. Obviously the growth is big, the numbers are here, better than all the other events combined. How do you break down the, if you had to draw a line in the sand, kind of infrastructure developers, configuration management, provisioning, all that stuff, to kind of pure app developers who say, hey, I'm devops, I don't really, I'm just want serverless, I want a full pool of resources, all that stuff's taken care of. How would you kind of, 60 40, 30 to 70, how would you, because we've got a lot of new people in here. What's the numbers in your mind? Just guess. >> In my mind I would probably say, this movement has about 70% of people who identify themselves as I'm a developer, I really want a different set of primitives so I can move on. If you look at the last maybe five to ten years where you've been brought into devops, you now have been exposed to infrastructure, and if you're going to be exposed to infrastructure, you want this kind of infrastructure, and not what you had before. And I think the ops people took a little longer. They were like, ah, I don't know, this just looks like something that doesn't solve my problems, or it's only for startups. Now we're starting to see that it'll work for almost any workload, if you understand what Kubernetes is trying to do >> It's hard to parse through the developer definition. >> Well, I mean, look it's 4,000 people here this time, right. We started with 300 people, maybe 500, and now we're at 4,000. You're starting to see everyone say all right, Kubernetes has a spot for me, here's how I contribute and leverage the platform. >> Kelsey, what do you say to people that look at this environment and say it's too complex. There's layers and layers, and I learn one piece, and it's changing constantly. This opportunity, threat, you know-- >> Here's the thing, everything is life is too complex. Anything you don't understand is too complex, okay. But if I go to your company and say, how long will it take me to learn all of your systems? Years, probably. Not everyone knows everything, so I think all these things by their very nature are complex. But if you think about what Kubernetes does, it at least takes all that complexity and gives it an API. You can now reason about it. So if you take the time to learn Kubernetes, all of this stuff from how do I deploy my app, to how we manage the hardware, at least has a defined API for the first time. It isn't going to be random from corporation to corporation, we're now aggregating the complexity and giving it a name. >> In your mind, how you would you define a high-quality pluggable architecture to leverages the goodness of Kubernetes. What does that look like, how should someone kind of check their, checksum their code, if you will, look at it and say okay, that's a pluggable architecture? What does it look like? >> So Kubernetes, if you think about it, the whole thing is extensible. So when people talk about the complexity, it's because there are a lot of moving pieces. So it was designed to leverage its own API since day one. So if you want to add a new scheduler, the thing that does, where does this application run, our current scheduler uses the Kubernetes API to do that, you can bring in your own, and Univa's a good example from two years ago, adding their own scheduler to Kubernetes. If you want like a TLS certificate from Let's Encrypt, there's a very obvious way that you would do that in Kubernetes. So our whole platform is API-driven from the outset. >> John: And the benefit of that is integration, right? >> Integration, extensibility, like, one thing that has always plagued our industry is, you buy this big software package, you want to do something custom, and now you're screwed. Now what you have is, we expect it to be extended, and your technology partner of choice will be able to extend it in a way that you can actually upgrade the thing. >> All right, so slightly different area. Kubernetes now, there's what, 42 certified partners out there. Will anybody make money on it? I come in saying, I don't think it's directly, I think it more like the cloud platforms, the other platforms. What's your take on the whole business aspect of this? >> I think it's kind of like Linux. How many people make money on Linux. I think even the people that do make money on Linux, it's the support, it's the service, and I think Kubernetes sets the stage for technology partners. You can't just sell me Kubernetes and walk away. You have to give me Kubernetes and envision how my business will extend on top of it. So, I want to do machine learning. Kubernetes is a great platform for doing machine learning. The value is above that, with the machine learning and all that other stuff. What's your take on the dynamic of all contributors here. I know joining Google, one of the reasons if I remember right from reading, you know, it's just, their participation in open source. Microsoft, big on open source, Adrian Cockcroft was in the keynote this morning, talking about AWS's participation. What your take? >> Honestly if you're a big provider, the value is not proprietary software for you. I'm in a cloud provider, we sell CPU cycles. If you want to use Mesos to spin those CPU cycles, that's great. We happen to believe in Kubernetes, so we provide that based on our experience. So to me, Kubernetes is much more part of our experience, than it is something just, we're all here trying to compete in the market. So, that's why I think people find it valuable, it solves problems that you have and share amongst your peers. >> What's your advice to app developers? Because the impact seems to be obviously to the value creation is going to be on solving problems in a way, new creative way, and again, we're predicting in theCUBE that we're going to see a swing back to the craftsmanship of software development. I mean Agile's great, and it kind of took that craftsmanship, but it de-risked it because you could make it run faster. But we're seeing a renaissance around craft, artisanship. Not just UI, I'm talking about real value. Style change, cultural impact, that's in a value opportunity. Your thoughts? >> When you talk about craftsmanship, the thing that we always look at when craftsmanship, we always talk about how long it takes to do something. I made this by hand. This was aged for 50 years before we drink it. And I think what we're doing now in the enterprises, we don't have time now to focus on the craft, I need it by Friday. And I also got to figure out the infrastructure first. So when you get things like Kubernetes, and then you layer on platforms like serverless and these PaaS's that sit on top, now you can actually focus on craftsmanship. Let me get this library right. Or, if there's another company that has already figured it out, and they've taken 10 years to get that library perfect, I get to actually use their hand-crafted piece in my hand-crafted piece, and then we start to get to the actual visions. So, I think the key missing element today is time. These platforms get you your time back, then you can actually invest in that craftsmanship. >> All that heavy lifting around redundant stuff that you shouldn't have to do, I mean, hell, I'm old, I remember how we used to have to do our own graphics libraries, now it's like, the artisanship is coming back. I 100% agree with you, but this is an opportunity that no one's yet monetized because it had never existed before, at this level of speed, reliability. >> They're monetizing, you're seeing the business monetizes. So remember, I don't necessary think that the vendors, the traditional IT vendors will be the one that monetize this, it's going to be the Netflixes of the world, the people that have an idea and they to market and then within two years, they have this large control of the market, because now they look at it and say, start with Kubernetes, grab Prometheus, grab these pieces that have been handcrafted by a large community that cares, and we're just going to focus on my business piece. That's who's cashing in. >> The value is shifting, the value is shifting. >> Kelsey, you mentioned time. First of all I want to say thank you for giving us some time and this community. I've seen so many examples, people are like, Kelsey Hightower gave me a call and talked to me for 10 15 minutes, you know, I'm nobody, podcasts, writing, everything else. How do you keep on about it, how do you look and see kind of this community continue to grow? >> Honestly you got to be, I'm a people person. And people are like, no, no, you work at a vendor, you're super biased. It's like, no, I am actually a people person >> You work at a vendor? >> Yeah, exactly. So for me, the people are first, because these people helped me get to where I am today, and I'm super appreciative of it. So when I get a chance, someone DMs me on Twitter and says, hey, Kelsey, I'm trying to reinvent my career. If I'm busy, I say call me. And I pick up the phone and say hey, how are you doing? Here's what worked for me. I'll listen for a while and say hey, here's my professional opinion, and I don't actually mind when other people do well. And I think a lot of times you want to shine by ourselves so much that we don't want to give away the secret sauce too early, because then I might be able to shine. I actually find it very enjoyable if I helped you with your talk, and you go and you rock the stage, and you go back to work and you get promoted, and then you tell me, hey, I really appreciate that. I found the ability to say you know what, you win, I win. >> You know, pay it forward in community is critical, that is a great example. More people should do it, congratulations. Paying it forward is all about selflessness. >> But it feels good when you do it. People don't understand, it feels good when you're around people that also feel good. >> You're so selfish with your selflessness. >> There you go (laughs). >> All right, final question for you. By the way, everyone should be like that because that's what communities do, good, thriving, robust communities help each other, they might be a little bit cocky but that's swagger, I like that, but, helping people's key. You have some good swagger, we appreciate your work on Twitter. My final question, your talk. What are you going to be talking about?6 What's the keynote like? Give a preview. >> So the preview is that I was going through the release notes of Kubernetes, and it's actually boring. 1.9, if you look at what we're shipping, it's all about stability, it's all about delivering the promises we made years ago, they're finally becoming V1 now. That's about it. There's nothing that I'm going to change in my cluster because of 1.9, and that's the major feature. We've been talking about getting infrastructure to become boring, and when I can look at a new release of Kubernetes and not freak out that I have to go change a bunch of stuff, we've finally done it. We've done the part that we're designed to do. So what I want to do is say hey, if Kubernetes is boring, where does the excitement live, and what does it look like? So I'm going do a lot of live demos of here's what it looks like when you're doing it correctly from my point of view, based on experience. >> Boring is calm, boring is reliable, the action is on top >> There you go. >> All right. Kelsey Hightower, thank you so much, it's been a time. Appreciate you coming on theCUBE, and sharing your insights and commentary. You'd be a great CUBE analyst, we'd love to have you on anytime. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman here at CloudNativeCon KubeKon live in Austin, Texas. Back with more live coverage after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from Austin Texas, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, this is theCUBE live in Austin, Texas for our exclusive coverage at the CloudNative Conference and KubeCon with Kubernetes via theCUBE. theCUBE which we're live, and 8 years running, I'm John Furrier, the founder of SiliconANGLE Media, my colleague, Stu Miniman. And I'm excited to have Cube alumni, and its distinguished industry legend, Lew Tucker, Vice President CT of Cloud Computing at Cisco Systems. Welcome back to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Great to be back, it's one of my favorite shows. >> Lou, we've had many conversations over the years, and it's always great to have you on because you're on the cutting-edge perspective, but you have a historical view as well, you've seen many waves of innovation. And obviously you own lots of property in the Computer's History museum, your resume goes on and on. But, you got to admire this community. Three years old, it was you, me and JJ we're sitting around at OpenStack in Vancouver three and a half years ago, having a beer after the event one of these days, and we were talking about Kubernetes, and we were really riffing on orchestration and kind of shooting the arrow forward, kind of reading the tea leaves. And we were predicting inter-clouding, inter-networking, Cisco core competency, the notion of application developers wanting infrastructure as code. We didn't actually say mircoservices but we were kind of describing a world that would be microservices, and this awesomeness that's going on with the Cloud. What a ... [Lew] You were right. You were right. >> We were right, it wasn't me, it was the community. This is how communities operate. >> It is. I think that what we're seeing, and particularly in these open source communities, you're getting the best ideas. And therefore, a lot of people are looking at this future space, and then we bring the kids out of the communities, get the projects that we work together on it, and that's how we move it forward. >> You've been a great leader in the community, just want to give you some props for that, you deserve it, but more importantly is just the momentum going on right now. And I want to get your take, you're squinting through the growth, you're looking at the innovation, looking at the big picture, certainly from a Cisco perspective, but also as an industry participant. Where's the action? Obviously containers grew, that tide came in, a lot of boats floated up. We saw microservices boom, then we now, Kubernetes' getting better and better, multiple versions, it's - some say commoditized, some would say more inter-operable. Really, that's the connection tissue for multi-cloud. >> Exactly right. >> Do you see the same thing? Where's the action? >> So, cloud computing is going everywhere now. And so it's natural that we see one of the next phases of this is in the area of multi-cloud. The customers, they are in public cloud, they have private data centers where they want to run similar applications. They don't want to have a completely different environment. What they really want to see is a consistent environment across which they can deploy applications. And that consistent environment also has to have security policies, authentication services, and a lot of these things. And to really drive the innovation, what I find interesting is that, the services that are coming now out of public cloud, whether it be an AI or server list, event-driven kind of programming models. Enterprises want to connect into them. And so one of the things I think that that leads to is that you're beginning to hear talk now, just beginning to hear it, which is this project called Istio. Which is a service mesh, because what that really allows -- >> John: What's the project name? >> It's called Istio? >> John: Istio. >> Lew: I-S-T-I-O. >> Okay. >> dot I-O. Everything is open source, it's a project that's contributed to by Google, and IBM, and Lyft, and now Cisco's getting involved in it, as well. And what it really plays into is this world of multi-cloud. That now we can actually access services in the public cloud from your own private data center, or from the public running applications in a public cloud, you can access services that are back in your data center. So it's really about this kind of application-level networking stack, that means that application developers can now off-load all of that heavy work to a service mesh, and therefore that'll accelerate application development. >> So it's interesting, I heard some talk about things like Envoy edge and service proxies, and service proxies have been a nice tool to kind of cobble together old legacy stuff, but now you're seeing stuff go to the next level. This data I heard in the keynote, I want to get your reaction 'cause this kind of jumps out at me. Lyft had created a mesh over hundreds of thousands of services over millions of transactions per second. Lyft. Uber's got some stuff on the monitoring side, Google's donated - This is large scale cloud guys who had to build their own stuff with open source, now contributing all this stuff back. This is the mesh you're talking about, correct? >> This is exactly right, yes. Because what we're seeing is, we've talked about micro services, and Kubernetes is about orchestration of containers. And that has accelerated application development and deploying it. But now the services, each one of those services still has all of this networking stuff they have to deal with. They have to deal with load balancing, they have to deal with retries, they have to deal with authentication. So instead, what is happening now, we're recognizing these common patterns, this is what the community does (mumbles). You see a common pattern, you abstract it, and you push that out into what is known as side cars now, so that the application developer doesn't have to -- the application doesn't get changed when you need to change, like, 'bring up a couple more services over here' 'put this on a different cloud'. The individual components now are unaffected by that, because all of that work has been offloaded into a service mesh. >> Lew, bring us inside a little bit. Dig into that next level of kind of networking. 'Cause you speak, kind of networking administrator, running around the data center, you get everything from pulling cables to zoning and everything like that. Now it's multi-cloud, multi-service, everything's faster. Through all the architect, the person running it, automation ... We don't have an hour, but give us a little bit about what it means to be a networking person these days. >> Well, it's interesting, because one of the things that we know application developers did not want to become, is to be a network engineer. And yet to do a lot of what they had to do, they had to learn a lot of those skills. And instead they would rather set things up by policy. For example, they would like to be able to say, 'if I'm deploying now the version two of my application', it's a classic thing we talk about in this deal, 'the next version we want to just direct' '5% of the traffic to it, make sure it's okay' 'before we turn over the whole thing.' You should be able to do that at the application level, and through a service mesh that is built in networking at the application level, the application guys can do it. Now the role of the network engineer is still the same, they have to provide the basic infrastructure to allow that to happen. And for example, a lot of the infrastructure now is extending the Cloud from public cloud through the cloud BPM services that they have back into the data center. So Cisco, for example, is putting technologies that are running at AWS and at Google, and Azure, that allows that to come back into the data center. So we can run Cisco virtual routers in the Cloud, connected back up in the data center. So their standard networking policy that the networking engineers really want to see enforced, they can be assured that that's enforced, and then Istio layers on top of it. >> And that's decoupled from the application. >> Right. Right. >> This is what we've been talking about since 2010, our eighth year of theCUBE, infrastructure as code. This is what DevOps was all about, and now it's evolving mainstream. >> Absolutely right. You really want infrastructure to be as boring as possible. And capable and then secure. And now give a lot more control over to the application developer. And we also know, right now it's really based largely on Kubernetes, it's a great example, but that will connect into virtual machines, it will connect into legacy services. So all of this has to do with connecting all of those pieces that are today in an enterprise, moving to a public cloud. And that transition doesn't happen wholesale. You move a couple over. >> Lew, one thing. I want you to look back, John talked about - We interviewed a bunch of years in OpenStack. What's your take on the role of OpenStack today, is there still a roll in OpenStack, and how's that kind of compare/contrast to what we're doing here? >> Happy to answer, because I actually am on both boards, I'm on the CNCF board and I'm on the OpenStack board, and I have contributors on my teams to both efforts across the board. And I think that the role that we're seeing of OpenStack is Openstack is evolving also, and it's becoming more embracive and it's becoming about open infrastructure. And it's really about, how do you create these open infrastructure plays. So it is about virtual machines, and containers, and bare metal, and setting up of those services. So Kubernetes works just great on top of OpenStack, and so now people get to have a choice, because one of the hard things I think for, mostly enterprise developers and everything else, is that the pace is changing so fast. So how do they try out some of the newer technologies that still can be connected back into the existing legacy systems? And that's why I think that we're seeing the role for OpenStack is to make that, you can put it with virtual machines, you can stand them up in there, and you can have the same virtual machines essentially running in the Cloud. >> So virtual machines versus other approaches has come up as a trade off, we heard in the keynote, between cost - I mean, speed, and security. Security's super important. So let me get your thoughts on how that plays out, because we've got the pluggable logger tech, which is another big theme we heard in the keynote, which is essentially just meaning, having a very focused, leverageable piece of code that can be connected into Kubernetes. But with VM's now, some are saying VM's are slow when you're trying to do security, but you want slow, boring when you need it, but you want speed and secure when you need it, too. How do you get both out of that? >> Without being too geeky in terms of, a virtual machine is emulating an entire computer. And so it looks like a computer, so you're running your traditional applications on top of a virtual machine. The same as they would if they were running on what we call, bare metal machine. So that is by necessity, much heavier. You're bringing around a whole operating system and things like that. Containers -- >> And there's a role for that, too. >> There's absolutely a role for that. >> Now containers? >> But containers, then, are really much more about, it's an application packaging exercise, so that you can say, 'I'm going to run this application, I just want all its dependencies packaged up.' I'll assume there's an operating system there. I'm going to count on the fact that there's a single operating system. So you can spin up containers, they're much more lightweight, much more quickly. And now there's even things such as Kata Containers that are coming out of Intel, which is now merging those technologies. >> Male: The clear containers. >> Clear containers, they came originally Clear Containers, and now it's merging, because we're saying, 'we want the security and the protection that you get' 'with a virtual machine, tied into, like the VTX' 'instruction set, in the hardware'. So you can get that level of security, assurances, but now you get the speed of containers. So, I think we're continuing to see the whole community evolving in this direction and making things easier for application developers, faster to do. They're increasing in scale, so management and orchestration - we talked about that three years ago, that that would be a big issue, and guess what? Of course it is. That's exactly what Kubernetes is addressing. >> And the role of the data is going to be critical, this is where a lot of people in the enterprise that we talked to, love the story, they love the narrative, but they're hearing things that they've never heard before and they kind of, slow down. So I'd like you to take a minute, Lew, and explain to the person watching, CIO, chief architect, network guy, whatever - what the hell is this Kubernetes hubbub about? What is Kubernetes, from your perspective? How would you wrap that up and describe the, what it is, and the impact to the customer? >> So, formally it's an orchestration of the container. So what that means is that, when you're developing an application, if you want it to be resilient, you want several instances of that application running, and you want traffic, then, to be low-balanced across it. Kubernetes provides that level of orchestration, to make sure there's always three running. If one fails, it can bring up another one. And it can do that completely automated. So it's a layer that really manages the deployment of containers. As an application developer, you still write your application, you package it up into a container, could be a doc or a container, and then you deploy it using Kubernetes in there. What is interesting, and I think that this is what we've recognized in this last year, I think, is that Kubernetes has a very simple networking model. Which is basically that of having a way to load-balance across multiple containers and keep them running. If you have anything more complicated about different services that you want to talk to from those containers, that may be different places in the universe, we don't have a mechanism for doing that. And everybody was having to write their own. So again, that's where the idea of a service mesh, STF -- >> John: That's where the meshing comes in. >> That's where the mesh ... >> Hundreds and hundreds of services. >> Lynkerd has been doing it for a while, Envoy. >> And Lyft and Uber, they had to do it because they had massive explosion of devices. >> Right, exactly right. And so that's why getting together the code from Lyft and Envoy, adding a control plane to it, which is what Istio really is about, brings that out, too. >> Sounds like an operating system to me, but Lew I one more question for you. You mentioned in, as you described it, Kubernetes, isn't that auto-scaling? If I'm familiar with AWS, isn't that just auto-scaling? Or is it auto-scaling for application instances? Or is auto-scaling more - defined differently? >> It does do the scaling part, it does the resiliency part, but it has a very simple model for that. And that's why you need to have other - but it's a beginning of that orchestration layer. >> Because at the container level, it has all those inherent problems. >> Right. And it can make sure to keep those containers alive and well, and manage the life cycle. >> John: And that's the difference. >> And that's the real difference. Whereas the auto-scaling from Amazon, as a service, is purely a networking capability then tied into bringing up new instances. >> So this is like auto-scaling on steroids. >> It is. But one of the differences also is that Kubernetes and what we're doing here is all open source. So you can run it anywhere. You don't get, a lot of people are very concerned about being locked in to, it used to be, you were locked into Oracle, or to Microsoft, or Java, on premise of things like that. >> Whatever proprietary operating system. >> And now they have concern being locked into these services that are in the public cloud providers. And what we're seeing now with Kubernetes and we're seeing in almost everything around here, by open sourcing them, the advantage is now the enterprise can run the same technology inside, without being locked into a vendor, as they do in the public cloud. >> Lew, so we spent a bunch of time talking about multi-cloud. Some of the more interesting pieces is what's happening at the edge, and IOT. We've heard Cisco talking about it for many years, networking of course important. What's your take, what are you working on, with regards to that these days. >> There's a couple new trends that we've been, IOT is actually now really getting realized, I think, because it is pushing a lot of the computing out to the edge, whether it be in cell phone towers or base stations, retail stores, that kind of edge. At the same time, we're seeing this multi-cloud that we want the big services. If I want to use a machine learning service, I want to use it up in the cloud, and I need to now connect it back to those devices. So multi-cloud is really about, addressing how do you develop applications that run across multiple, in the cloud, on the edge, in an IOT device. There's also, I think you've probably been hearing, server lists, and function as a service. These are, again, a lighter weight way to have kind of an event-driven model, so that if you have an IOT device and it just causes an event, you want to be able to spawn essentially a service, in the cloud, that only runs to process that one event, and then it goes away. So you're not paying to run instances of virtual machines or whatever, sitting there waiting for some event. You get a trigger, and you only pay - so it has this micro-billing capability as a part of it - so that you just can use only the resources. We finally realized the promise that we always had in cloud computing, which is that, pay for only what you need, for what you use. And so this is another way to do that. >> Lew, it's great to have you on theCUBE again, good to see you, great to get the update. I'd like to ask you one more final question to end the segment here. You always have your ear to the ground, reading the tea leaves, you have a unique skill to understand the tech at the root level. What's coming next? If we go back and we have these nice conversations where we're riffing on what's coming out in the next two, three years. It's unclear to some of the visionaries out there, so I got to ask you, what's going to be hot, what do you see emerging? As we saw Kubernetes and discussed, we couldn't have predicted this, I couldn't have. I knew it was going to be hot, I knew it was going to be big, but not this big, changing industry. What do you see out there? What would be the conversation you'd say, 'You know, we've got to watch this,' 'this is going to be a value creation opportunity,' 'enabling technology that's going to make a lot of things' 'flow nicely' - what kind of tech should ... >> Well, it may be a trite answer, 'cause I think a lot of people are seeing the same thing, is that we're actually laying the groundwork here, when we talk about multi-cloud, things that are distributed across multiple things. Accessing different services. I'm still a big believer in, it's going to be in the strength of those services. Whether they be speech-translation services, whether they be recommendation engine, whether it means big data services. Access to those services is what's going to be important. Three or four years from now, we're going to be talking about the intelligence -- >> Without a lot of heavy lifting to integrate it. >> Yes, that's exactly the point. We want it so that somebody can almost visually wire up these things, and take advantage of tremendously powerful machine-learning algorithms. That they don't want to have to hire the machine-learning experts to do it, they want to use that as a service. >> Slinging API, slinging services, wiring things up, sounds like it's an operating system to me. >> It's always an operating system at the end of the day. >> Lew Tucker, Vice President and CTO at Cisco Systems. Industry legend, on the board of CNCF, the fastest-growing organization, where projects equal products equals profit, and of course the OpenStack. Lew, thanks for coming on theCUBE, I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman, back here live in Austin for more live coverage of CloudNativeCon and KubeCon, after this short break. >> Lew: Thank you.