>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE, covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon brought to you by Redhat, a CloudNative computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, we are here in San Diego where we are keeping CloudNative classy. I'm Stu Miniman, and my cohost is John Troyer, and we are happy to welcome back to the program, our host, Dan Kohn, who is the executive director of the CloudNative computing foundation, or the CNCF. Dan, thank you so much for having us. >> Thrilled to be back again. >> All right, and, yeah, so our fourth year doing this show, the big shows-- >> Dan: Nothing's really changed. You just tear right along the same level. One year to the next, you can just confuse them pretty easily.. >> So, you know, Dan, we actually did a prediction show yesterday, and I said, maybe it's my math background, but I look back two years ago, it was four thousand, then eight thousand, now twelve thousand, so I predict Boston must be sixteen thousand because I was used to those standardized tests, but with the growth, you never know, and it is very difficult, you know, we talk about planning, we've talked, this facility was booked before-- >> Dan: Two years ago. >> --the curve really started taking off. So, help us set the stage a little bit, we're getting towards the end of the event, but you know, tons of day zero things, so many sessions, so many people, there were pre-show events I heard that started like the end of last week, so, it's a small city in this community in so many pieces, and the CNCF helps enable all of it. >> It does, and what's fun for us is just that, the community is out there adopting these technologies and contributing to it and growing, and being able to come together, this is always our biggest event in North America but also in Europe and China. It's just a really nice snapshot of the point of time, in saying, okay, where are things, how many companies are interested in having sponsor booths, how many developers are there, how many track, but, I think maybe my favorite anecdote from Kubecon CloudNativeCon San Diego is that there was a, so we offer, a CFP track, a call for proposals that's extremely competitive, only 12% of the talks get accepted. And then we have a maintainer track, where the different providers can have either an intro, a deep-dive, or both. So the deep dive for the project Helm, which is not even a graduated project yet, I mean, it's very widely used, package manager for Kubernetes, but the deep dive for Helm had more than 1600 people inside their session, which is more than we had at all of attending Kubecon 2015 and 2016 combined. >> So, Dan, one of the words that gets mentioned a lot in this space, and it has lots of different meanings, is "scale". You know, we talk about Kubernetes built for big scale, we're talking about Edge computing which goes to small scale. This event, you look at the ecosystem. There's a thirty foot banner with all of the logos there, you look at the landscape-- >> Dan: They're not that big, either. >> --there are so many logos on there. Actually, I really thought you had an enjoyable yet useful analogy in your opening keynote. You talk about Minecraft. I've got a boy, he plays Xbox, I've seen Minecraft, so when he pulls up the little chart and there's like, you know, all of these little things on the side, my son can tell you how they're used and what you can build with them, I would be completely daunted looking at that, much like many of the people coming to this show, and they look around and they're like, I don't even know where to start. >> And that was fun keynote for me to put together, because I did need to make sure, both on the Minecraft part, that all the formulas were correct, I didn't want anyone... But then I drew the analogy to Kubernetes and how it is based on a set of building blocks, hundreds of them, that have evolved over time, and for that, I actually did some software archeology of reaching out to the people who created the original IPFW, Linux firewall 20 years ago based on PSD and then the evolution since then, made sure that they were comfortable with my description of it. But now, bringing it out to Kubecon, CNCF, we have a lot of projects now, so we're up to 43. When we met in Seattle four years ago, it was 2. And so it's definitely incumbent on CNCF to do a good job, and we can probably do an even better one on trying to draw this trail map, this recommended path through understanding the technologies, deciding on which ones people might want to adopt. >> Yeah, I think that would be really interesting. In fact, the words trail map kind of came up on Twitter, today, I saw. And one of the things that struck me was how the first rule of Kubecon is, well, Kubernetes is not maybe in the center of everything, it's underneath everything, but, like you said, 42 projects in the CNCF, many more projects, open-source projects, of course, from different vendors, from different coalitions, that you can see here on the show floor as well, if not in a session, so, without giving a maybe a CNCF 101, what does the path forward look like in terms of that, the growth of projects within the CNCF umbrella, the prominence of Kubecon, are we headed towards CloudNativeCon? >> Well, we've always been calling it Kubecon CloudNativeCon, and we could reverse the names, but I don't see any particular drive to do that. But I would really emphasize, and give credit to Craig McLuckie and some of the other people who originally set up CNCF, where Google had this technology, if they'd come to the Linux Foundation and said, we want to call it the Kubernetes Foundation, we probably would've said yes to that. But the impact, then, would be that all of these other technologies and approaches would have come in and said, we need to become part of the Kubernetes project, and instead, there was a vision of an ecosystem, and the reality is that Kubernetes is still by far the largest project. I mean, if you look at the total number of contributors, I believe it's approximately the same between Kubernetes and our other 42 projects combined. So, and of course, there's overlap. But in that sense, in some ways, Kubernetes sort of represents the sun, and the other projects are orbiting around it, but from the beginning, the whole idea was to say that we wanted to allow a diversity of different approaches, and CNCF has had this very clear philosophy that we're not king makers, that if you look at our landscape document, where we look at different functions like key management or container run times or databases or others, there can be multiple CNCF hosted projects in each box. And so far at least, that approach seems to be working quite well. >> Yeah, Dan, having been to a number of these, the maturity and progress is obvious. Something we've said is Kubernetes is really table sticks at this point, no matter where I go, there is going to be Kubernetes, and therefore, I've seen it some over the last year or so, but very prominent on this show, we're talking about work loads, we're talking about applications, you know, it's defining and explaining that CloudNative piece of it, and the tough thing is, you know, modern applications and building applications and that AppDev community. So, you know, speak a little bit-- You've got a very diverse audience here, talk about the personas you have to communicate with, and who you're attracting to this. I know they put out lots of metrics as to the surveys and who's coming and who's participating. >> Well, we do, and we'll be publishing those, and I love the fact. I think some people misunderstand in the thinking that Kubecon CloudNativeCon is all infrastructure engineers, and something like a third or more of the attendees are application developers, and so I do think there's this natural move, particularly towards AppDev. The difference is that on the infrastructure side, there's just a really strong consensus about Kubernetes, as you're saying, where on the application development side, it's still very early days. And I mean, if anything, I think really the only area that there is consensus on is that the abstractions that Kubernetes provides are not the ones that we want to have regular application developers at most enterprises working with, that they shouldn't actually need to build their own container and then write the YAML in order to configure it. Brian Liles hit that point nicely with his keynote today around Rails. But so we can agree that what we have isn't the right outcome, we can agree that whatever are the winning solutions are very likely underneath going to be building those containers and writing the YAML. But there are so many different approaches right now, at a high layer on what that right interface is. >> Yeah, I mean, just, one example I have, I had the opportunity to interview Bloomberg for the second time. And a year ago, we had talked very much about the infrastructure, and this year we talked about really, they've built internally that PaaS layer, so that their AppDevs, they might know that there's Kubernetes, but they don't have to interface with that at all. I've had a number of the CNCF end user members participate, maybe, speak to that, the community of end users participating, and end user usage overall. >> Yeah, so when we first met in Seattle four years ago, we had three members of our end user community. We appreciated them joining early, but that was a tough call. But to be up to 124 now, representing almost every industry, all around the world, just a huge number of brand names, has been fantastic. What is interesting is, if you go talk to them, almost all of them are using Kubernetes as the underlying layer for their own internal PaaS, and so the regular developers in their organizations can often just want to type get push, and then have the continuous integration run and the things built and then deployed out and everything. But it's somewhat surprising there hasn't yet been a level of consensus on what that sort of common PaaS, the common set of abstractions on top should be. There's a ton of our members and developers and others are all working to sort of build that winning solution, but I don't have a prediction for you yet. >> And of course, skill interoperability and skill transferability is going to be key in growing this ecosystem, but I thought the stats on you know, the searches you can do on the number of job openings for Kubernetes is incredible. >> Yeah, so on the interoperability, we were very pleased to announce Tuesday that we've now passed 100 certified vendors, and of all the things that CNCF does, probably even including Kubecon, I might say that that certified Kubernetes program is the one that's had the biggest impact. To have implementations from over 100 different organizations that you can take the same workloads and move them across and have the confidence, those APIs will be supported, it's just a huge accomplishment, and in some ways, up there with WiFi or Bluetooth or some of the best interoperability standards. And then you mentioned the job support, which is another-- >> Yeah, I want to transfer engineers too, as well as workloads. >> --area that we're thrilled, and we just launched that, but we now have a couple hundred jobs listed on it and a bunch of people applying, and it's just a perfect example of the kind of ecosystem development that we're thrilled to do, and in particular the fact that we're not charging either the employers or the applicants, so it's jobs.CNCF.io to get access to that. >> Great. Dan, you also mentioned in your keynote, Kubernetes has crossed the chasm. That changes the challenges that you have when you start talking about you know, the early or mid majority environment, so I know you've been flying around the globe, there's not only the three big events, but many small events, talk about how CNCF6 mission helps you know, educate and push, I guess not push, but educate and further innovation. >> Yeah, and just enable. So, one of the other programs we have is the Kubernetes Certified service provider, these are organizations, essentially consulting firms, that have a deep expertise that have had at least three of their engineers pass our certified Kubernetes administrator exam, and it is amazing now that we've passed 100 of those, but they're in over 30 different countries. So we're just thrilled to see businesses all around the world be able to take advantage of that. And I do get to go to a lot of events around the world; we're actually, CNCF is hosting our first ever events in Seoul and in Sydney in two weeks, that I'm quite excited for, and then in February, we're going to be back in India, and we're going to be in Bengaluru, where we had a very successful event in March. We'll be there in February 2020 and then our first one in New Delhi, those are both in the third week of February. And I think it does just speak to the number of people who are really eager for these to soak this up, but one of the cool things about it is we're combining both local experts, half of our speakers are local, half are international, and then we do a beginner track and an advanced track. >> Yeah, Dan, you know, I'd just love a little bit of insight from you as to, there's a little bit of uncontrolled chaos when you talk about open source. Many of the things that we're talking about this year, a year ago, we would've been, oh my gosh, I would've never thought of that. So give us what it's like to be kind of at the eye of the hurricane, if you would. >> A lot of criticism, to be honest. An amazing number of people like to point out the things that we're not quite doing correctly. But you know, the huge challenge for an organization like CNCF, where, we're a non-profit, these events are actually spinning off money that we're then able to reinvest directly into the projects, so doing things like a quarter million dollars for a security audit for Kubernetes that we were able to publish. Or a Jepson testing for NCD, or improving documentation and such. So a big part of it is trying to create those positive feedback loops, and have that, and then another huge part is just, given all the different competing interests and the fact that we literally have every big technology company in the world on our board and then all of the, I mean, hundreds of start ups that tend to be very competitive, it's just really important that we treat organizations similarly. So that all of our platinum members are treated the same, all our gold, all our silver, and then within the projects, that all the graduated projects are treated similarly, incubating, sandbox, and people really notice. I have kids, and it's a little bit there, where they're sort of always believing that the other kid is getting extra attention. >> Yeah, right, you can't be the king maker, if it will, you're letting it out. Look out a little bit, Dan, and you know, we still have more growth to go in the community, obviously the event has room for growth. What do you see looking forward to 2020 and beyond? >> Yeah, I would love to predict some sort of amazing discontinuity where everyone adopts these technologies and then CNCF is not necessary anymore, something like that. But the reality is, I mean, I love that crossing the chasm metaphor, and I do think it's very powerful, and we really do say 2018 was the year that Kubernetes crossed the chasm from the early adopters to the early majority, but I would emphasize the fact that it's only the early majority. We haven't reached in to the entire second half of the curve, the late majority and the laggards. And so there are a ton of organizations here at the event who are just getting up to speed on this and realizing, oh, we really need to invest and start understanding it. And so, I mean, I don't, we also talk about there will be some point of peak Kubecon, just like peak Loyal, and I don't yet see any signs of it being 2019 or 2020, but it's something that we're very cognizant of and working hard to try and ensure that the event remains useful for people and that they're seeing value from it. I mean, there was a real question when we went from one thousand Seattle four years ago to four thousand in Austin three years ago, oh, is this event even still useful, can developers still interact, do you still have conversations, is the hallway track still valuable? And thankfully, I'm able to chat with a lot of the core developers, where this is their fifth North American Kubecon and they're saying, no, I'm still getting value out of it. Now, what we tend to hear from them is, "but I didn't get to go to any sessions," or "I have so many hallway tracks and private meetings and interactions and such," but the great thing there is that we actually get all of these sessions up on YouTube within 48 or 72 hours, and so, people ask me, "oh, there's 18 different tracks, how do I decide which one to go to?" And I always say, "go to the one where you want to interact with the speaker afterwards, or ask a question," because the other ones, you can watch later. But there isn't really a substitute for being here on the ground. >> Well, there's so much content there, Dan, I think if they start watching now, by the time you get to Amsterdam, they'll have dented a little bit. >> I'll give a quick pitch for my favorite Chrome extension, it's called Video Speed Player. And you can speed people up to 120, 125%, get a little bit of that time back. >> Yeah, absolutely, we have at the backend of ours, there is YouTube, so you can adjust the speed and it does help most of the time, and you can back up a few seconds if needed. Dan, look, congratulations, we know you have a tough role, you and the CNCF, we really appreciate the partnership. We love our community, it has had a phenomenal time this week at the show, and look forward to 2020 and beyond. >> I do as well, I really want to thank you for being with us through this whole way, and I think it is just an important part of the ecosystem. >> And I know John Furrier also says thank you and looks forward to seeing you next year. >> Oh, absolutely. >> Dan, thank you so much. John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, getting towards the end of our three days, wall-to-wall coverage here in sunny San Diego, California, thanks for watching theCUBE.

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. This is theCUBE's live coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019 here in Barcelona, Spain. 7,700 here in attendance, here about all the Cloud Native technologies. I'm Stu Miniman; my cohost to the two days of coverage is Corey Quinn. And to help us break down what's happening in this ecosystem, we've brought in Jason Bloomberg, who's the president at Intellyx. Jason, thanks so much for joining us. >> It's great to be here. >> All right. There's probably some things in the keynote I want to talk about, but I also want to get your general impression of the show and beyond the show, just the ecosystem here. Brian Liles came out this morning. He did not sing or rap for us this morning like he did yesterday. He did remind us that the dinners in Barcelona meant that people were a little late coming in here because, even once you've got through all of your rounds of tapas and everything like that, getting that final check might take a little while. They did eventually filter in, though. Always a fun city here in Barcelona. I found some interesting pieces. Always love some customer studies. Conde Nast talking about what they've done with their digital imprint. CERN, who we're going to have on this program. As a science lover, you want to geek out as to how they're finding the Higgs boson and how things like Kubernetes are helping them there. And digging into things like storage, which I worked at a storage company for 10 years. So, understanding that storage is hard. Well, yeah. When containers came out, I was like, "Oh, god, we just fixed it for virtualization, "and it took us a decade. "How are we going to do it this time?" And they actually quoted a crowd chat that we had in our community. Tim Hawken, of course one of the first Kubernetes guys, was in on that. And we're going to have Tim on this afternoon, too. So, just to set a little context there. Jason, what's your impressions of the show? Anything that has changed in your mind from when you came in here to today? Let's get into it from there. >> Well, this is my second KubeCon. The first one I went to was in Seattle in December. What's interesting from a big picture is really how quickly and broadly KubeCon has been adopted in the enterprise. It's still, in the broader scheme of things, relatively new, but it's really taking its place as the only container orchestrator anybody cares about. It sort of squashed the 20-or-so alternative container orchestrators that had a brief day in the sun. And furthermore, large enterprises are rapidly adopting it. It's remarkable how many of them have adopted it and how broadly, how large the deployment. The Conde Nast example was one. But there are quite a number. So we turned the corner, even though it's relatively immature technology. That's the interesting story as well, that there's still pieces missing. It's sort of like flying an airplane while you're still assembling it, which makes it that much more exciting. >> Yeah, one of the things that has excited me over the last 10 years in tech is how fast it takes me to go from ideation to production, has been shrinking. Big data was: "Let's take the thing that used to take five years "and get it down to 18 months." We all remember ERP deployments and how much money and people you need to throw at that. >> It still takes a lot of money and people. >> Right, because it's ERP. I was talking to one of the booths here, and they were doing an informal poll of, "How many of you are going to have Kubernetes "in production in the next six months?" Not testing it, but in production in the next six months, and it was more than half of the people were going to be ramping it up in that kind of environment. Anything architecturally? What's intriguing you? What's the area that you're digging down to? We know that we are not fully mature, and even though we're in production and huge growth, there's still plenty of work to do. >> An interesting thing about the audience here is it's primarily infrastructure engineers. And the show is aimed at the infrastructure engineers, so it's technical. It's focused on people who code for a living at the infrastructure level, not at the application level. So you have that overall context, and what you end up having, then, is a lot of discussions about the various components. "Here's how we do storage." "Here's how we do this, here's how we do that." And it's all these pieces that people now have to assemble, as opposed to thinking of it overall, from the broader context, which is where I like writing about, in terms of the bigger picture. So the bigger picture is really that Cloud Native, broadly speaking, is a new architectural paradigm. It's more than just an architectural trend. It's set of trends that really change the way we think about architecture. >> One interesting piece about Kubernetes, as well. One of the things we're seeing as we see Kubernetes start to expand out is, unlike serverless, it doesn't necessarily require the same level of, oh, just take everything you've done and spend 18 months rewriting it from scratch, and then it works in this new paradigm in a better way. It's much less of a painful conversion process. We saw in the keynote today that they took WebLogic, of all things, and dropped that into Kubernetes. If you can do it with something as challenging, in some respects, and as monolithic as WebLogic, then almost any other stack you're going to see winds up making some sense. >> Right, you mentioned serverless in contrast with Kubernetes, but actually, serverless is part of this Cloud Native paradigm as well. So it's broader than Kubernetes, although Kubernetes has established itself as the container orchestration platform of choice. But it's really an overall story about how we can leverage the best practices we've learned from cloud computing across the entire enterprise IT landscape, both in the cloud and on premises. And Kubernetes is driving this in large part, but it's bigger picture than the technology itself. That's what's so interesting, because it's so transformative, but people here are thinking about trees, not the forest. >> It's an interesting thing you say there, and I'm curious if you can help our community, Because they look at this, and they're like, "Kubernetes, Kubernetes, Kubernetes." Well, a bunch of the things sit on Kubernetes. As they've tried to say, it's a platform of platforms. It's not the piece. Many of the things can be with Kubernetes but don't have to be. So, the whole observability piece. We heard the merging of the OpenCensus, OpenTracing with OpenTelemetry. You don't have to have Kubernetes for that to be a piece of it. It can be serverless underneath it. It can be all these other pieces. Cloud Native architecture sits on top of it. So when you say Cloud Native architecture, what defines that? What are the pieces? How do I have to do it? Is it just, I have to have meditated properly and had a certain sense of being? What do we have to do to be Cloud Native? >> Well, an interesting way of looking at it is: What we have subtracted from the equation, so what is intentionally missing. Cloud Native is stateless, it is codeless, and it is trustless. Now, not to say that we don't have ways of dealing with state, and of course there's still plenty of code, and we still need trust. But those are architectural principals that really percolate through everything we do. So containers are inherently stateless; they're ephemeral. Kubernetes deals with ephemeral resources that come and go as needed. This is key part of how we achieve the scale we're looking for. So now we have to deal with state in a stateless environment, and we need to do that in a codeless way. By codeless, I mean declarative. Instead of saying, how are we going to do something? Let's write code for that, we're going to say, how are we going to do that? Let's write a configuration file, a YAML file, or some other declarative representation of what we want to do. And Kubernetes is driven this way. It's driven by configuration, which means that you don't need to fork it. You don't need to go in and monkey with the insides to do something with it. It's essentially configurable and extensible, as opposed to customizable. This is a new way of thinking about how to leverage open-source infrastructure software. In the past, it was open-source. Let's go in an monkey with the code, because that's one of the benefits of open-source. Nobody wants to do that now, because it's declaratively-driven, and it's configurable. >> Okay, I hear what you're saying, and I like what you're saying. But one of the things that people say here is everyone's a little bit different, and it is not one solution. There's lots of different paths, and that's what's causing a little bit of confusion as to which service mesh, or do I have a couple of pieces that overlap. And every deployment that I see of this is slightly different, so how do I have my cake and eat it, too? >> Well, you mentioned that Kubernetes is a platform of platforms, and there's little discussion of what we're actually doing with the Kubernetes here at the show. Occasionally, there's some talk about AI, and there's some talk about a few other things, but it's really up to the users of Kubernetes, who are now the development teams in the enterprises, to figure out what they want to do with it and, as such, figure out what capabilities they require. Depending upon what applications you're running and the business use cases, you may need certain things more than others. Because AI is very different from websites, it's very different from other things you might be running. So that's part of the benefit of a platform of platforms, is it's inherently configurable. You can pick and choose the capabilities you want without having to go into Kubernetes and fork it. We don't want 12 different Kubernetes that are incompatible with each other, but we're perfectly okay with different flavors that are all based on the same, fundamental, identical code base. >> We take a look at this entire conference, and it really comes across as, yes, it's KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. We look at the, I think, 36 projects that are now being managed by this. But if we look at the conversations of what's happening here, it's very clear that the focus of this show is Kubernetes and friends, where it tends to be taking the limelight of a lot of this. One of the challenges you start seeing as soon as you start moving up the stack, out through the rest of the stack, rather, and seeing what all of these Cloud Native technologies are is, increasingly, they're starting to be defined by what they aren't. I mean, you have the old saw of, serverless runs on servers, and other incredibly unhelpful sentiments. And we talk about what things aren't more so than we do what they are. And what about capabilities story? I don't have an answer for this. I think it's one of those areas where language is hard, and defining what these things are is incredibly difficult. But I see what you're saying. We absolutely are seeing a transformative moment. And one of the strangest things about it, to me at least, is the enthusiasm with which we're seeing large enterprises, that you don't generally think of as being particularly agile or fast-moving, are demonstrating otherwise. They're diving into this in fascinating ways. It's really been enlightening to have conversations for the last couple of days with companies that are embracing this new paradigm. >> Right. Well, in our perspective at Intellyx, we're focusing on digital transformation in the enterprise, which really means putting the customer first and having a customer-driven transformation of IT, as well as the organization itself. And it's hard to think in those terms, in customer-facing terms, when you're only talking about IT infrastructure. Be that as it may, it's still all customer-driven. And this is sometimes the missing piece, is how do we connect what we're doing on the infrastructure side with what customers require from these companies that are implementing it? Often, that missing piece centers on the workload. Because, from the infrastructure perspective, we have a notion of a workload, and we want workload portability. And portability is one of the key benefits of Kubernetes. It gives us a lot of flexibility in terms of scalability and deployment options, as well as resilience and other benefits. But the workload also represents the applications we're putting in front of our end users, whether they're employees or end customers. So that's they key piece that is like the keystone that ties the digital story, that is the customer-facing, technology-driven, technology-empowered story, with the IT infrastructure stories. How do we support the flexibility, scalability, resilience of the workloads that the business needs to meet its business goals? >> Yeah, I'm really glad you brought up that digital transformation piece, because I have two questions, and I want to make sure I'm allowing you to cover both of them. One is, the outcome we from people as well: "I need to be faster, and I need to be agile." But at the same point, which pieces should I, as an enterprise, really need to manage? Many of these pieces, shouldn't I just be able to consume it as a managed service? Because I don't need to worry about all of those pieces. The Google presentation this morning about storage was: You have two options. Path one is: we'll take care of all of that for you. Path two is: here's the level of turtles that you're going to go all the way down, and we all know how complicated storage is, and it's got to work. If I lose my state, if I lose my pieces there, I'm probably out of business or at least in really big trouble. The second piece on that, you talked about the application. And digital transformation. Speed's great and everything, but we've said at Wikibon that the thing that will differentiate the traditional companies and the digitally transformed is data will drive your business. You will have data, it will add value of business, and I don't feel that story has come out yet. Do you see that as the end result from this? And apologies for having two big, complex questions here for you. >> Well, data are core to the digital transformation story, and it's also an essential part of the Kubernetes story. Although, from the infrastructure perspective, we're really thinking more about compute than about data. But of course, everything boils down to the data. That is definitely always a key part of the story. And you're talking about the different options. You could run it yourself or run it as a managed service. This is a key part of the story as well, is that it's not about making a single choice. It's about having options, and this is part of the modern cloud storage. It's not just about, "Okay, we'll put everything in one public cloud." It's about having multiple public clouds, private clouds, on-premises virtualization, as well as legacy environments. This is what you call hybrid IT. Having an abstracted collection of environments that supports workload portability in order to meet the business needs for the infrastructure. And that workload portability, in the context of multiple clouds, that is becoming increasingly dependent on Kubernetes as an essential element of the infrastructure. So Kubernetes is not the be-all and end-all, but it's become an essentially necessary part of the infrastructure, to make this whole vision of hybrid IT and digital transformation work. >> For now. I mean, I maintain that, five years from now, no one is going to care about Kubernetes. And there's two ways that goes. Either it dries up, blows away, and something else replaces it, which I don't find likely, or, more likely, it slips beneath the surface of awareness for most people. >> I would agree, yeah. >> The same way that we're not sitting here, having an in-depth conversation about which distribution of Linux, or what Linux kernel or virtual memory manager we're working with. That stuff has all slipped under the surface, to the point where there are people who care tremendously about this, but you don't need to employ them at every company. And most companies don't even have to think about it. I think Kubernetes is heading that direction. >> Yeah, it looks like it. Obviously, things continue to evolve. Yeah, Linux is a good example. TCP/IP as well. I remember the network protocol wars of the early 90s, before the web came along, and it was, "Are we going to use Banyan VINES, "are we going to use NetWare?" Remember NetWare? "Or are we going to use TCP/IP or Token Ring?" Yeah! >> Thank you. >> We could use GDP, but I don't get it. >> Come on, KOBOL's coming back, we're going to bring back Token Ring, too. >> KOBOL never went away. Token Ring, though, it's long gone. >> I am disappointed in Corey, here, for not asking the question about portability. The concern we have, as you say: okay, I put Kubernetes in here because I want portability. Do I end up with least-common-denominator cloud? I'm making a decision that I'm not going to go deep on some of the pieces, because nice as the IPI lets things through, but we understand if I need to work across multiple environments, I'm usually making a trade-off there. What do you hear from customers? Are they aware that they're doing this? Is this a challenge for people, not getting the full benefit out of whichever primary or whichever clouds they are using? >> Well, portability is not just one thing. It's actually a set of capabilities, depending upon what you are trying to accomplish. So for instance, you may want to simply support backing up your workload, so you want to be able to move it from here to there, to back it up. Or you may want to leverage different public clouds, because different public clouds have different strengths. There may be some portability there. Or you may be doing cloud migration, where you're trying to move from on-premises to cloud, so it's kind of a one-time portability. So there could be a number of reasons why portability is important, and that could impact what it means to you, to move something from here to there. And why, how often you're going to do it, how important it is, whether it's a one-to-many kind of thing, or it's a one-to-one kind of thing. It really depends on what you're trying to accomplish. >> Jason, last thing real quick. What research do you see coming out of this? What follow-up? What should people be looking for from Intellyx in this space in the near future? >> Well, we continue to focus on hybrid IT, which include Kubernetes, as well as some of the interesting trends. One of the interesting stories is how Kubernetes is increasingly being deployed on the edge. And there's a very interesting story there with edge computing, because the telcos are, in large part, driving that, because of their 5G roll-outs. So we have this interesting confluence of disruptive trends. We have 5G, we have edge computing, we have Kubernetes, and it's also a key use case for OpenStack, as well. So it's like all of these interesting trends are converging to meet a new class of challenges. And AI is part of that story as well, because we want to run AI at the edge, as well. That's the sort of thing we do at Intellyx, is try to take multiple disruptive trends and show the big picture overall. And for my articles for SiliconANGLE, that's what I'm doing as well, so stay tuned for those. >> All right. Jason Bloomberg, thank you for helping us break down what we're doing in this environment. And as you said, actually, some people said OpenStack is dead. Look, it's alive and well in the Telco space and actually merging into a lot of these environments. Nothing ever dies in IT, and theCUBE always keeps rolling throughout all the shows. For Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. We have a full-packed day of interviews here, so be sure to stay with us. And thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat techno music)