from the silicon angle media office in Boston Massachusetts it's the queue now here's your host David on tape hi everybody welcome to this special cube in size powered by ET our enterprise Technology Research our partner who's got this database to solve the spending data and what we're gonna do is a braking analysis on the analytic database market we're seeing that cloud and cloud players are disrupting that marketplace and that marketplace really traditionally has been known as the enterprise data warehouse market so Alex if you wouldn't mind bringing up the first slide I want to talk about some of the trends in the traditional EDW market I almost don't like to use that term anymore because it's sort of a pejorative but let's look at it's a very large market it's about twenty billion dollars today growing it you know high single digits low double digits it's expected to be in the 30 to 35 billion dollar size by mid next decade now historically this is dominated by teradata who started this market really back in the 1980s with the first appliance the first converged appliance or coal with Exadata you know IBM I'll talk about IBM a little bit they bought a company called mateesah back in the day and they've basically this month just basically killed the t's and killed the brand Microsoft has entered the fray and so it's it's been a fairly large market but I say it's failed to really live up to the promises that we heard about in the late 90s early parts of the 2000 namely that you were going to be able to get a 360 degree view of your data and you're gonna have this flexible easy access to the data you know the reality is data warehouses were really expensive they were slow you had to go through a few experts to to get data it took a long time I'll tell you I've done a lot of research on this space and when you talked to the the data warehouse practitioners they would tell you we always had to chase the chips anytime Intel would come out with a new chip we forced it in there because we just didn't have the performance to really run the analytics as we need to it's took so long one practitioner described it as a snake swallowing a basketball so you've got all those data which is the sort of metaphor for the basketball just really practitioners had a hard time standing up infrastructure and what happened as a spate of new players came into the marketplace these these MPP players trying to disrupt the market you had Vertica who was eventually purchased by HP and then they sold them to Micro Focus greenplum was buy bought by EMC and really you know company is de-emphasized greenplum Netezza 1.7 billion dollar acquisition by IBM IBM just this month month killed the brand they're kind of you know refactoring everything par Excel was interesting was it was a company based on an open-source platform that Amazon AWS did a one-time license with and created a redshift it ever actually put a lot of innovation redshift this is really doing well well show you some data on that we've also at the time saw a major shift toward unstructured data and read much much greater emphasis on analytics it coincided with Hadoop which also disrupted the market economics I often joked it the ROI of a dupe was reduction on investment and so you saw all these data lakes being built and of course they turned into the data swamps and you had dozens of companies come into the database space which used to be rather boring but Mike Amazon with dynamodb s AP with HANA data stacks Redis Mongo you know snowflake is another one that I'm going to talk about in detail today so you're starting to see the blurring of lines between relational and non relational and what was was what once thought of is no sequel became not only sequel sequel became the killer app for Hadoop and so at any rate you saw this new class of data stores emerging and snowflake was one of the more interesting and and I want to share some of that data with you some of the spending intentions so over the last several weeks and months we've shared spending intentions from ETR enterprise technology research they're a company that that the manages of the spending data and has a panel of about 4,500 end-users they go out and do spending in tension surveys periodically so Alex if you bring up this survey data I want to show you this so this is spending intentions and and what it shows is that the public cloud vendors in snowflake who really is a database as a service offering so cloud like are really leading the pack here so the sector that I'm showing is the enterprise data warehouse and I've added in the the analytics business intelligence and Big Data section so what this chart shows is the vendor on the left-hand side and then this bar chart has colors the the red is we're leaving the platform the gray is our spending will be flat so this is from the July survey expect to expectations for the second half of 2019 so gray is flat the the dark green is increase and the lime green is we are a new customer coming on to the platform so if you take the the greens and subtract out the red and there's two Reds the dark red is leaving the lighter red is spending less so if you subtract the Reds from the greens you get what's called a net score so the higher the net score the better so you can see here the net score of snowflake is 81% so that very very high you can also see AWS in Microsoft a very high and Google so the cloud vendors of which I would consider a snowflake at cloud vendor like at the cloud model all kicking butt now look at Oracle look at the the incumbents Oracle IBM and Tara data Oracle and IBM are in the single digits for a net score and the Terra data is in a negative 10% so that's obviously not a good sign for those guys so you're seeing share gains from the cloud company snowflake AWS Microsoft and Google at the expense of certainly of teradata but likely IBM and Oracle Oracle's little for animal they got Exadata and they're putting a lot of investments in there maybe talk about that a little bit more now you see on the right hand side this black says shared accounts so the N in this survey this July survey that ETR did is a thousand sixty eight so of a thousand sixty eight customers each er is asking them okay what's your spending going to be on enterprise data warehouse and analytics big data platforms and you can see the number of accounts out of that thousand sixty eight that are being cited so snowflake only had 52 and I'll show you some other data from from past surveys AWS 319 Microsoft the big you know whale here trillion dollar valuation 851 going down the line you see Oracle a number you know very large number and in Tara data and IBM pretty large as well certainly enough to get statistically valid results so takeaway here is snowflake you know very very strong and the other cloud vendors the hyper scale is AWS Microsoft and Google and their data stores doing very well in the marketplace and challenging the incumbents now the next slide that I want to show you is a time series for selected suppliers that can only show five on this chart but it's the spending intentions again in that EDW and analytics bi big data segment and it shows the spending intentions from January 17 survey all the way through July 19 so you can see the the period the periods that ETR takes this the snapshots and again the latest July survey is over a thousand n the other ones are very very large too so you can see here at the very top snowflake is that yellow line and they just showed up in the January 19 a survey and so you're seeing now actually you go back one yeah January 19 survey and then you see them in July you see the net score is the July next net score that I'm showing that's 35 that's the number of accounts out of the corpus of data that snowflake had in the survey back in January and now it's up to 52 you can see they lead the packet just in terms of the spending intention in terms of mentions AWS and Microsoft also up there very strong you see big gap down to Oracle and Terra data I didn't show I BM didn't show Google Google actually would be quite high to just around where Microsoft is but you can see the pressure that the cloud is placing on the incumbents so what are the incumbents going to do about it well certainly you're gonna see you know in the case of Oracle spending a lot of money trying to maybe rethink the the architecture refactor the architecture Oracle open worlds coming up shortly I'm sure you're gonna see a lot of new announcements around Exadata they're putting a lot of wood behind the the exadata arrow so you know we'll keep in touch with that and stay tuned but you can see again the big takeaways here is that cloud guys are really disrupting the traditional edw marketplace alright let's talk a little bit about snowflakes so I'm gonna highlight those guys and maybe give a little bit of inside baseball here but what you need to know about snowflakes so I've put some some points here just some quick points on the slide Alex if you want to bring that up very fast-growing cloud and SAS based data warehousing player growing that couple hundred percent annually their annual recurring revenue very high these guys are getting ready to do an IPO talk about that a little bit they were founded in 2012 and it kind of came out of stealth and hiding in 2014 after bringing Bob Moog Leon from Microsoft as the CEO it was really the background on these guys is they're three engineers from Oracle will probably bored out of their mind like you know what we got this great idea why should we give it to Oracle let's go pop out and start a company and that NIN's and as such they started a snowflake they really are disrupting the incumbents they've raised over 900 million dollars in venture and they've got almost a four billion dollar valuation last May they brought on Frank salute Minh and this is really a pivot point I think for the company and they're getting ready to do an IPO so and so let's talk a little bit about that in a moment but before we do that I want to bring up just this really simple picture of Alex if you if you'd bring this this slide up this block diagram it's like a kindergarten so that you know people like you know I can even understand it but basically the innovation around the snowflake architecture was that they they separated their claim is that they separated the storage from the compute and they've got this other layer called cloud services so let me talk about that for a minute snowflake fundamentally rethought the architecture of the data warehouse to really try to take advantage of the cloud so traditionally enterprise data warehouses are static you've got infrastructure that kind of dictates what you can do with the data warehouse and you got to predict you know your peak needs and you bring in a bunch of storage and compute and you say okay here's the infrastructure and this is what I got it's static if your workload grows or some new compliance regulation comes out or some new data set has to be analyzed well this is what you got you you got your infrastructure and yeah you can add to it in chunks of compute and storage together or you can forklift out and put in new infrastructure or you can chase more chips as I said it's that snake swallowing a basketball was not pretty so very static situation and you have to over provision whereas the cloud is all about you know pay buy the drink and it's about elasticity and on demand resources you got cheap storage and cheap compute and you can just pay for it as you use it so the innovation from snowflake was to separate the compute from storage so that you could independently scale those and decoupling those in a way that allowed you to sort of tune the knobs oh I need more compute dial it up I need more storage dial it up or dial it down and pay for only what you need now another nuance here is traditionally the computing and data warehousing happens on one cluster so you got contention for the resources of that cluster what snowflake does is you can spin up a warehouse on the fly you can size it up you can size it down based on the needs of the workload so that workload is what dictates the infrastructure also in snowflakes architecture you can access the same data from many many different houses so you got again that three layers that I'm showing you the storage the compute and the cloud services so let me go through some examples so you can really better understand this so you've got storage data you got customer data you got you know order data you got log files you might have parts data you know what's an inventory kind of thing and you want to build warehouses based on that data you might have marketing a warehouse you might have a sales warehouse you might have a finance warehouse maybe there's a supply chain warehouse so again by separating the compute from that sort of virtualized compute from the from the storage layer you can access any data leave the data where it is and I'll talk about this in more and bring the compute to the data so this is what in part the cloud layer does they've got security and governance they got data warehouse management in that cloud layer and and resource optimization but the key in in my opinion is this metadata management I think that's part of snowflakes secret sauce is the ability to leave data where it is and have the smarts and the algorithms to really efficiently bring the compute to the data so that you're not moving data around if you think about how traditional data warehouses work you put all the data into a central location so you can you know operate on it well that data movement takes a long long time it's very very complicated so that's part of the secret sauce is knowing what data lives where and efficiently bringing that compute to the data this dramatically improves performance it's a game changer and it's much much less expensive now when I come back to Frank's Luqman this is somebody that I've is a career that I've followed I've known had him on the cube of a number of times I first met Frank Sloot when he was at data domain he took that company took it public and then sold it originally NetApp made a bid for the company EMC Joe Tucci in the defensive play said no we're not gonna let Ned afgan it there was a little auction he ended up selling the company for I think two and a half billion dollars sloop and came in he helped clean up the the data protection business of EMC and then left did a stint as a VC and then took over service now when snoop and took over ServiceNow and a lot of people know this the ServiceNow is the the shiny toy on Wall Street today service that was a mess when saluteth took it over it's about 100 120 million dollar company he and his team took it to 1.2 billion dramatically increased the the valuation and one of the ways they did that was by thinking about the Tam and expanding that Tim that's part of a CEOs job as Tam expansion Steuben is also a great operational guy and he brought in an amazing team to do that I'll talk a little bit about that team effect uh well he just brought in Mike Scarpelli he was the CFO was the CFO of ServiceNow brought him in to run finance for snowflake so you've seen that playbook emerge you know be interesting Beth white was the CMO at data domain she was the CMO at ServiceNow helped take that company she's an amazing resource she kind of you know and in retirement she's young but she's kind of in retirement doing some advisory roles wonder if slooping will bring her back I wonder if Dan Magee who was ServiceNow is operational you know guru wonder if he'll come out of retirement how about Dave Schneider who runs the sales team at at ServiceNow well he you know be be lord over we'll see the kinds of things that Sluman looks for just in my view of observing his playbook over the years he looks for great product he looks for a big market he looks for disruption and he looks for off-the-chart ROI so his sales teams can go in and really make a strong business case to disrupt the existing legacy players so I one of the things I said that snoopin looks for is a large market so let's look at this market and this is the thing that people missed around ServiceNow and to credit Pat myself and David for in the back you know we saw the Tam potential of ServiceNow is to be many many tens of billions you know Gartner when they when ServiceNow first came out said hey helpdesk it's a small market couple billion dollars we saw the potential to transform not only IT operations but go beyond helpdesk change management at cetera IT Service Management into lines of business and we wrote a piece on wiki Vaughn back then it's showing the potential Tam and we think something similar could happen here so the market today let's call 20 billion growing to 30 Billy big first of all but a lot of players in here what if so one of the things that we see snowflake potentially being able to do with its architecture and its vision is able to bring enterprise search you know to the marketplace 80% of the data that's out there today sits behind firewalls it's not searchable by Google what if you could unlock that data and access it in query at anytime anywhere put the power in the hands of the line of business users to do that maybe think Google search for enterprises but with provenance and security and governance and compliance and the ability to run analytics for a line of business users it's think of it as citizens data analytics we think that tam could be 70 plus billion dollars so just think about that in terms of how this company might this company snowflake might go to market you by the time they do their IPO you know it could be they could be you know three four five hundred billion dollar company so we'll see we'll keep an eye on that now because the markets so big this is not like the ITSM the the market that ServiceNow was going after they crushed BMC HP was there but really not paying attention to it IBM had a product it had all these products that were old legacy products they weren't designed for the cloud and so you know ServiceNow was able to really crush that market and caught everybody by surprise and just really blew it out there's a similar dynamic here in that these guys are disrupting the legacy players with a cloud like model but at the same time so the Amazon with redshift so is Microsoft with its analytics platform you know teradata is trying to figure it out they you know they've got an inertia of a large install base but it's a big on-prem install base I think they struggle a little bit but their their advantages they've got customers locked in or go with exudate is very interesting Oracle has burned the boats and in gone to cloud first in Oracle mark my words is is reacting everything for the cloud now you can say Oh Oracle they're old school they're old guard that's fine but one of the things about Oracle and Larry Ellison they spend money on R&D they're very very heavy investor in Rd and and I think that you know you can see the exadata as it's actually been a very successful product they will react attacked exadata believe you me to to bring compute to the data they understand you can't just move all this the InfiniBand is not gonna solve their problem in terms of moving data around their architecture so you know watch Oracle you've got other competitors like Google who shows up well in the ETR survey so they got bigquery and BigTable and you got a you know a lot of other players here you know guys like data stacks are in there and you've got you've got Amazon with dynamo DB you've got couch base you've got all kinds of database players that are sort of blurring the lines as I said between sequel no sequel but the real takeaway here from the ETR data is you've got cloud again is winning it's driving the discussion and the spending discussion with an IT watch this company snowflake they're gonna do an IPO I guarantee it hopefully they will see if they'll get in before the booth before the market turns down but we've seen this play by Frank Sluman before and his team and and and the spending data shows that this company is hot you see them all over Silicon Valley you're seeing them show up in the in the spending data so we'll keep an eye on this it's an exciting market database market used to be kind of boring now it's red-hot so there you have it folks thanks for listening is a Dave Volante cube insights we'll see you next time

>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum World 2019. Brought to you by VM Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone. Day three Q coverage here in San Francisco for V emerald. 2019. I'm just for a student, Um, in here with David Lan. Take days free kick off. We have two sets wall to wall coverage. Guys, this is the time where we get to take a deep breath two days under our belts look and reflect on all the news we've covered in a dark to last analysis sessions but also kind of riff on. We got two nights in hallway conversations we learned a lot of the party means do. I learned a lot last night. Dave. I know you. You learned a lots, do you, Thomas? When things that the chatter Certainly twittersphere hashtag the emerald. A lot of action on there, but it's the hallway conversations. It's the party that people have a few cocktails in them day that you start to hear the truth. The real deal comes out, >> No doubt. And and again Jon Stewart, there's real concern over from the from the practitioners we talked to about this acquisition spree. Are they going to be integrated? Are they going to just throw all this stuff at us and keep jamming products and service is down our throats? Or is this going to be a coherent set of solutions that solves our problem? We also had a little little interesting side conversation about, you know, Snowflake, Frank's lumens new company and how basically Frank is bringing back the Pirates from Data Domain and from service. Now Mike Scarpelli is over there. He's a rock star. CFO Beth White is eventually is back over there. And Frank's Lupin. He's the guy who takes companies from, you know, 100 million to a billion, so that's gonna be >> very serious money making him going on there. >> We have been following his career for a number of years now. We watched him take data domain. We watched him pull that that rabbit out of his hat with the sale with net app, and then the emcee swooped in. And then we saw what he did service. Now we've documented this is an individual to watch, you know, >> he's a world class management team member I mean, he's executes. >> Oh, yeah, no doubt. And >> he has >> a formula that's been proven and in time and time again. And to me, the biggest testament salute Min is the success of the continued success of Data Domain. After he left Hey, he really helped clean up the emcees data protection mess. Um, and then the second thing is, look at service now is performance after he left, I haven't missed a beat. And, yeah, John Donahoe, great executive and all, but it's because Frank's Lubin had everything in place and that was a really well run >> dry. And they got a nice little oracle like business model. >> Yeah. No, you're right. They kind of, you know, the big complaint now as well. Your price is too high that Oracle. >> What have you learned? What you hear in the hallways? I mean, a lot of chatter. >> Yes, John, we We've been reflecting back a lot. It's 10 years in 10th year of the Cube here and back here in San Francisco. The new Mosconi, our third show that I've been at this year in Mosconi and we always track year to year. But since it's been what 45 years since we were here for VM World. When I talked to the average vendor. When I talk to you know, the analysts here were like, Oh, thank goodness we're not in Vegas. When I talked to the average attendee, they're like, Oh my God, what happened to San Francisco since last time we were here? It is too expensive. And the experience walking around San Francisco has really not nearly as nice as it might have been five or 10 years ago. And many of them we were talking to, Ah, woman that runs an event that has been Vegas in San Francisco. And she said, Oh, we did in San Francisco and got tremendous feedback. Don't do it there again. Brings back to Vegas both for costs and the enjoyment of being around the environment. >> Where was a shit show here in San Francisco is horrible right now, I got to say to your right eye was walking this morning from my hotel. Literally. A homeless person passed out the middle of the sidewalk. Um, your smells like urine. It's P, and it's It's just I mean, it's really bad this tense now. I mean City of San Francisco is gonna do some. Mosconi, by the way, has been rebuilt. Awesome. So, you know, in terms of the new Mosconi stew, that's a serious upgrade. Hotel rooms are scarce and just the homeless problem. It's just ridiculous. I don't know what they're >> doing. So one of the other big things when I was reflecting coming into here two years ago when VM wear really started down right before the war on AWS announcement, they made a big announcement. IBM because they had sold off the cloud air toe Oh, VH And for two years Oh, VH was a big partner, Talked about that transition, said we handed off this great asset over h isn't here at the show. I was like, Oh, my gosh, you know, that was, you know, such a big story and other companies like New >> 12. That's good. One lets someone who's not at the show and why. Yeah, oh, VH wired to hear >> They aren't here because, well, they've got customers. More of them are in Europe That was supposed to be a big entry into the United States. Obviously, it wasn't as valuable for them to be here, even though I'm sure they're still part of that service provider ecosystem. They have other big one for us, and we've had on the Cube Nutanix. You know, we've had Dheeraj Pandey. First time we had him on was that this show is still the majority of Nutanix. Customers are VM where customers I've talked to lots of Nutanix customers at the event, even part of the analyst event. Some of the customers I talked to were like, Oh, yeah, my hardware stacks Nutanix and amusing NSX. And I'm using other things there. But they are not here. They're not allowed to be at the show. And I >> mean, they were blatantly told they can't come. >> They can't come here. They can't come to the regional things. They can't do the partner things. So that that that relationship is definitely >> from red hat. What kind of presence have you seen from Red s? >> So their number companies like red Hat that they're kept at a lower level of sponsorship. So they're here. They participate, you know. Open shift, of course, is you know, big enemy for cloud native. Lots of open shift runs on V sphere. So many of those companies that are part of the ecosystem, but not the ones that they want to celebrate and put front and forward. So it's always interesting kind of walk around on those. Even Microsoft is an interesting relationship for, you know, decades with the M wear. You know, of course, azure they partner with. But hyper V was long a competitors. So, you know, we understand those competitive relationships >> could be interesting. Stew and Dave on the ecosystem Jerry Chan Day when we just doing my interview yesterday on the other set mentioned that the ecosystem reinvents itself the community. The question now is with Delhi emceeing Del Technologies obviously heard Michael Dell essentially laying out his plan, which is he's got. He's trying to keep people distracted, but the bottom line is going to top people putting together the cloud right well service provider model. So you know, that's what he's gonna be a big impact. VM wear the crown jewel of Del Technologies certainly is looking more and more like It's >> well and yesterday remember the first VM world we did in 2010? It was It was del I mean course and see only the time Who's Del? It was H p Yes, the emcee was there, but it was net app. I mean, everybody could've had equal standing yesterday at the keynotes. It was Project Dimension of V M, where cloud on Delhi emcee and long keynotes >> data protection into the VM were >> also it's It's all very heavily, you know, Jeff Clarke has his his thumb on, you know, the the deli emcee folks pushing that through Veum where Michael is orchestrating the whole thing. Pat obviously is allowing it. I was sitting in the audience Next next, Some folks from Netapp they're like, you know, this kind of a bummer. Calvin Sito from h p e tweeted Wow how to stick it in the face of your ecosystem partners. He then later went on Facebook saying, Hey, I love this ecosystem, so sort of balancing it out because, you know, he wants to be a good, good citizen, but clearly the ecosystem partners who basically brought VM where you know, to the the position where it's in through distribution, our little ruffled. Right now you can't blame him, But at the same time, the mandate is clear. Michael Dell is driving his products and his solutions through VM were period the end. And, you know, if you don't like it, leave >> right. They had such great success with V San and VX rail in that joint product development and go to market. If they can replicate that with a number of other solutions, they get that the synergies. If >> you don't like it, don't leave. That leave is worse than that. They say you don't like it, you know, invited you. But >> how about what Pat said yesterday in the Cube about when they announced on Gwen heavily leaned into V san. He said publicly that Joe Tucci was pissed and I hate her. They were going at it so that so that shows you the change, right? I mean, so so so e m. C. When it owned VM where was very cautious about allowing Veum wears a software company to drive value somewhere Now is just acting like a software company. >> Well, I think I mean, I learned last night's do, um and you can appreciate this. I learned that the top executives of'em where are looking heavily and working hard at understanding and drive them kubernetes cloud native thing because this is not a throwaway deal. This is not a you know, far anything that they are investing. They get their top brass tech execs on kubernetes fto. Two big players job. Ada, Craig McCaw calumnies. We know interviews since day one, but I think the cloud native thing is going to be interesting. And I think it's gonna be evolution. I think there's gonna be a very dynamic road thing's gonna be a series, of course, corrections, but directionally they're all in on. They're going for it, they're not. >> And actually, I had a, you know, good discussion with Chad Attack. It's a good friend of the program now working at GM, where for the first time, but came from AMC worked at Pivotal. He said, culturally, such a gap between VM wear don't have to touch your app, you know, move everything along lifted shift is nice and easy versus pivotal, you know must go completely You know, dual programming, you know, agile everything there, so bridging those because there's multiple paths and the rail pharaoh announcement is that would be cloud native stuff that won't necessarily go to the EMS. We're going to retool V EMS to now be a platform for kubernetes so that they have a few passed to bridge or to build towards the future. Here's the >> answer strategy. Discussion That and Rayo Farrell was now running Cloud native. Think this is just really >> ties in the interesting discussion that I had with some folks was that you've essentially got well, Jerry Chen brought this up last time we had him on it and reinventing because >> we have >> a conversation all the time about this Amazon have to go up the stack. And Jerry Chen made a really he said, Look, it they're not They're not gonna become an e r peace offer company. What they're gonna do is give tools to the builders so that they can disrupt Europea. They can disrupt service. Now they can disrupt Oracle. That's their strategy, at least for now. Okay, so what does that say? I think the strategy discussion inside of'em were and and l is about by whatever clouds gonna be 35 to 50% of the market. Fine. And the cloud native abs. Great. But you got this mission critical. E r p is an example. Database saps that are on Prem. What we have to do is keep them there. So we're going to sell to the incumbents and we're going to give them cloud native tools, toe modernize. Those APS have build new acts on Prem, and that's the that is the collision course that's coming. So the big question is, can the cloud native guys and AWS disrupt that >> huge? I've always said I'm is on and like the way they're coming in, a tsunami is coming in. And who's gonna build that sea wall to stop it right? And that's essentially only hope that these guys have. You look at all the competitive strategy. Was Oracle. Whoever just gotta stop it? You can't like >> the sea >> wall. That's a great building. A sea wall I was, I would say, is Is that you know, they're only hope at this point is to, you know, get in the game because see Amazon is the stack. They're not really moving up the stack. You hear that from Cisco and Dale and other people? That's where it's a game of musical chairs. Right now, the music's you know, there's still a lot of shares left, but soon chairs getting pulled away and Cisco Deli emcee VM, where they're all fighting for these big chairs. And one >> thing >> we talked about yesterday is that VM wears very directional, product driven. Otherwise they pick a direction, is a statement of direction and don't really have a lot of meat on the bone. In the product side, Sister is actually in market with service providers there in market with NETWORKINGS to this no vapor there that's installed basis and incumbent business. You have developers Esso Baton talks about suffered to find data center, suffer defined networking. I mean, come on, Really. I mean, they're getting there, but it didn't have the complete solution. Cisco >> Coming into this week, I expected here a bit more about the progress and all the customers of'em wear on AWS and feel like Vienna actually downplayed the AWS. We know what a strong partnership it is at every Amazon show we go to, and we got a lot of them Now there's a big presence there, and I can talk to customers that are starting to roll out and move there, but it felt like it was David's. You pointed out there are some messaging differences when you talk about multi cloud and how they're positioning it. So, you know, put those >> here Amazon. If your Amazon you're not happy with Microsoft Dell Technologies World The big announcement that was positioned a cloud foundation Although it wasn't a joint engineering, But the press picked it up as though the Amazon deal has been replicated with Microsoft and Google. I mean, you gotta be gotta be hurt if your Amazon >> So I've I've just been taking notes this this event, there's I've noted at least five major points of difference between a W s what they're saying and their philosophy and the anywhere so eight of us. We know they they don't talk multi cloud. They've told their partners, If you're doing joint marketing with us, you cannot say multi cloud aws that reinforce John. We saw this. Steven Schmidt said that this narrative that security is broken doesn't help the industry. Security's not broken, you know, we're doing great. The state of the nation is wonderful. Aws Matt. Not really. I agree. By the way. Uh, that's not the case. I agree with Pat saying Security's broken. It's a do over VM where wants to be the best infrastructure and developer software company. Who's the best infrastructure and software development platform. Eight of us. The M one wants to be the security cloud. Who's the security cloud? Eight of us. And then, uh, they talked about 10,000 cloud data Listeners are those really cloud data centers at Vienna. And the last one was this was a little nuanced Veum was talking about We know about migrating, modernize, lifted ship shift and then modernize The empire's not talking about modernize and then migrate. If you want to. I totally in conflict >> as a collision course. That's got Look, look, look at the data center was Look, it looks like we're going. We're going away, right to the data center. Staying. That's music to Michael Dell's VM. Where's years they live in the Data City? Do you pointed out yesterday? Data Senate goes away. So does begin. Where's business? >> One of things. I'm surprised. I'm wondering you both have talked to some of the service fighter telco pieces of'em, where they're doing that project dimension, which is the VM where stack on del that looks just like outposts on. And I know they had deployments on this for months. If I was them, you know, it's everybody's hearing about Outpost to talk about it, being more like we're already doing it in. This has you in that Amazon ecosystem. It might be a little strong for the Amazon story, but have you been hearing any about that this week? >> I think they keep a lot of cards close to the chest, but it's clear from the announces that they're doing certainly del the VM, where on Delhi Emcee Cloud or whatever it's called, it's not a cloud but their their infrastructure that is essentially a managed service. That's gonna be really strong for I t. People, because I think that the value proposition of going toe i t and saying we have this, you don't need to do anything. It's very strong, I mean, because I didn't want him >> and justified because this the project to mention it is that single, that thinner stack like what we saw on Outpost in the Amazon video, as opposed to Veum, where cloud on AWS, which is the full C i r h d. I stack. >> I haven't heard anything still on >> well, but the conversation I had from from Vienna, where standpoint, they could make money on that manage service. That's why it's the preferred partnership, right? And so that's their part of their cloud play. If you don't have a public cloud, I said this yesterday, you have to redefine Cloud and you have to get into cloud service. And that's what's happening. And that's exactly what's happening. And what I like about what V M where is doing is they are transitioning their model to a sass based model. Now it's only 12 and 1/2 percent of the revenues today. But both pivotal and carbon black are gonna add, you know, ah, $1,000,000,000 next year to that subscription based $3 billion in year two. Um, and so you know, Pat said the other day, I think we could get to 50 50. I don't necessarily think in the near term we're gonna go beyond that. It's not the Adobe >> way could be critical. Critical of'em were in some areas, but I gotta tell you their core strength that they went to a software operators on the data center friend of prices. That's been a great strategy. Focusing on their core building from there is Jerry 10 point out adding other products so their software company, So I think they're really got a good solution. And you? The data shows that people are increasing their spending, John. Just one based on >> that. Because I had a couple of really good conversation with customers, customers that would deploy VCF So they've got the full stack on there. So using H C I, but not necessarily on Dell hardware, could be Cisco Hardware. Could be HB hardware in the like or they're buying NSX. But the virtual ization team owns it, and they get kind of put in. A box storage team says That's not the array I'm used to buy. Well, maybe I'll put a pure storage box and put it in between. The networking team says I'm refreshing my Cisco hardware. You know, we're like, but we have NSX, and it's great. Well, you can use NSX over there. We're going to use a C I over here. So the term I heard from a number of customers is organizations still have hardware to find roles, and they're trying to figure out how to move to that software world. Which hurts me, cause I spent years trying to get beyond silos and helping people you know, move through those environments. And still, in 2019 it's a big challenge. That organizational shift is we know how tough that is. >> So just couple points in the data, because you're right. There are some countervailing trends, though. So, yes, people are spending Maurin VM where in the second half. But at the same time, the data shows that cloud is hurting VM wear spend. So this that's kind of gets interesting. Our containers gonna kill VM where? No, there's no evidence that container's air hurting VM where spend. But there's clearly risks there, you know, as we've talked about who's best position of multi cloud. Well, it turns out three guys with the public cloud are best positioned in multi Google and Microsoft on, and so and then the pivotal thing is interesting, and ties ties all this in so that the data is actually really interesting. It's like you're seeing tugs at both sides, and I think your your notion about the seawall is dead on. That's exactly what they're doing. >> You see that with Oracle's trying to stop jet. I just want they can't win this one to stop Amazon just on the tracks gave great data. Great reporting, Stoop. Good observations. Get all the day that night and parties we're gonna certainly keep doing that. Day three of wall to wall coverage here. You bringing to the insights and interviews here live from the Emerald Twin 19. Stay with us for more after this short break.