>>From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of IBM. Think 20, 21 brought to you by IBM, everybody welcome back to the cubes. Continuous coverage of IBM think 20, 21, the virtual edition. My name is Dave Volante, and we're going to talk about observability, front and center for DevOps and developers. Things are really changing. We're going from monitoring and logs and metrics and just this mess. And now we're bringing in AI and machine intelligence and with us as Pablo Baron, who's the CTO of Instana, which is an IBM company that IBM acquired November of 2020 Pablo. Great to see you. Thanks for joining us from Munich. >>Thanks for having me. Thanks a lot. >>You're very welcome. So, you know, I always love to talk to founders and co-founders and try to understand sort of why they started their companies and congratulations on the exit. That's awesome. After, you know, five, five, I'm sure. Grinding, but relatively short years. Uh, why did you guys start in Stoneleigh and what were some of the trends that you saw and that you're seeing now in the observability space? >>Yeah, that's a very good question. So, um, the journey began, uh, as we worked in the company called code centric, the majority of the founders, and, uh, we actually specialized in troubleshooting, um, well, real hard customer performance problems. We used all different kinds of APM solutions for that. You know, we we've built expertise, uh, like, uh, collectively, maybe 300 years of the whole company. So we will go from one, um, adventure into the other and see customers suffer and to help them, you know, overcome this trouble. At some point we started seeing architectures, uh, coming up that were not well covered by the classic APM solutions. Like people went off to the suit, a suit, a suit of the virtualization, all in containers, you know, just dropping random, uh, workloads into container running this maybe in Cubanitos. Well, not, not actually not five, six ago but years ago, but you get the point we started with having continued containerization. >>And we've seen that a classic APM solution that is having the, you know, like machine oriented. And then, uh, some of them even counted by the number of CPU, et cetera, et cetera. The world very well suited for this plus all of the workloads are so dynamic. They keep coming and going. You cannot really, you know, place your agent there that is not adapting to change continuously. We've seen this coming and we really we've seen the trouble that we cannot really support the customers properly. So after looking around, we just said, Hey, uh, it's time to just implement the new one, right? This is, we started that adventure with the idea of a constant change to the AGL. If everything is containers with idea of everything goes towards cloud native people just, uh, run random, uh, um, workloads of all different versions that are linked all together that this whole microservices trend came up where people would just break down their model and resilience of, uh, literally very small components that could be deployed independently. Everything keeps changing all the time. The classic solution cannot keep up with it, >>Pick it up from there if I can. So it's interesting. Your timing is quite amazing because as you mentioned, it really wasn't cute Kubernetes when you started in the middle part of last decade, like containers have been around for a long time, but Coobernetti's, weren't that wasn't mainstream back then. So you had some foresight, uh, and, and the market has just come right into your vision, but, but maybe talk a little bit about the way APM used to work. It was, I started this talk about this. It was metrics, it was traces, it was logs. It was make your eyes bleed type of type of stuff. Um, and maybe you could talk about how, how you guys are different and how you're accommodating the rapid changes in the market today. >>Right? So, well, there is very, very many pieces to this. So first of all, we always have seen that the work that you should not be doing by hand, I mean, we already said that you should not be doing this and you shouldn't be automating as much as possible. We see this everywhere in the it industry that everything gets more and more automated and want to automate it through the whole continuous delivery cycle. Unfortunately, monitoring was the space that probably never was automated before installer came into place. So our idea was, Hey, just, just get rid of the unnecessary work because you keep people busy with stuff that they should not be doing, like manually watching dashboards, setting up agents, uh, with every single software change, like adopting configuration, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, all of these things can be done automatically, you know, to very, very, very large extent. >>And that's what we did. We, we did this from the beginning, everything we approach, uh, we, we, we think twice about, uh, can we automate, you know, the maximum out of it. And only if we see that it's, it's, you know, too much in effort, et cetera, we will, we will problem in onto this, but otherwise we're not, we don't do this. And yet, you know, you can compromise the other, right? The other aspect is, so this is different to the classic APM world that is typically very expert heavy. The expert comes into, you know, into the project and really starts configuring, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. This is, this is a totally different approach. The other approach is continuous change and, uh, you know, adapting to the continuous change container comes up. You need to know what this kind of workload, what kind of workload this thing is, how it is connected to all the others. >>And then at some point, probably it's gonna, it's gonna, you know, go through the change and get a new version, et cetera, et cetera. You need to capture this whole life cycle without really changing your monitoring system. Plus if you move your workloads from the classic monolith through microservices onto cause the need is you kind of trans transitioning, you know, it's a journey in this journey. You want to keep your business abstractions as stable as possible. The term application is nothing that you should be reconfiguring. Once you figured out what is payments in your system? This is a stable obstruction. It doesn't matter if you deliver it on containers. It doesn't matter if this is just a huge, you know, JVM that owns the whole box alone. It simply doesn't matter. So we, we decoupled everything infrastructure from everything logic and, uh, the foundation for this is what we call the dynamic graph. >>It's technically, it's pretty much a data structure. The regular route, the dispatcher would do no connections, uh, in, in, in multiple directions, from different nodes. But the point is that we actually decompose the whole it geography. This is the term I like to use because there is, there is no other it's infrastructure. It's typology. It is on the other hand, just, you know, same sides of the same thing. When you have a Linux process, it can be a JVM. It just, at the same time, it can be a problem with application. It's the same thing. I can give a different names and this different, you know, facets of this thing can be linked with everything else in a different way. So we're decomposing this from the beginning of the product, which allows us to, to have a very deep and hierarchical understanding of the problem when it appears so we can nail it, not down to a metric that probably doesn't make sense to any user, but really name the cause by look in this JVM, the drop wizard metric XYZ that is misbehaving. >>This indicates that this particular piece of technology is broken and here's how it's broken. So there's a built in explanation to a problem. So, um, the cloud, the classic APM, as I said, it is a very expert, heavy, um, uh, territory. We try to automate the expert. We have this guy called Stan. This is your, you know, kind of, uh, virtual dev ops engineer has AI in there. It has some, some artificial brain. It never sleeps. It observes all of the problems. It really is an amazing guy because nobody likes them because he always tells you what's broken. You don't need to invite them to the body and give them a raise. They're just there and conserving the system. >>I liked Stan. I liked Stan better than Fred. No offense to Fred, but Fred's is the guy in the lab coat that I have to call every time to help me fix my, and what you're describing is end to end visibility or observability, uh, in, in terms that the normal either normal people can understand, or certainly Stan can understand and can automate. And that kind of leads me to this notion of, of anti-patterns. Um, getting in software, we think of anti-patterns is, you know, you have software hairballs and software bloat. You've got stovepipe systems. You're, you're a data guy by background. And so you will understand, you know, stovepipe data systems, there's organizational examples of, of, of anti-patterns like micromanagement or over-analyze analysis by paralysis. If you will, how do anti-patterns fit into this world of observability? What do you see? >>Oh, there is many, I could write a whole book actually about that. Um, let, let me just list a few. So first of all, it is valid for any kind of automation. What you can automate, you should not be doing by hand. This is a very common pattern. People are just doing work by hand, just because the lazy where you know, like repetitive work or there is no kind of foundation to automate the, whatever, the reason, this is clearly an impact pattern. What we, what we also see in the monitoring space are very interesting things like normally since the problems in the observability and monitoring space are so hard, you would normally send your best people, watching rats want them to contribute to the business value rather than waste the time of serving charts. That's like 99% of them are marble. The other aspect of course, is what we also have seen is the other side of the spectrum where people just send total mobilizes into the, into the problem of ops observability and let them learn on the subject, which is also not a good thing, because you can not really, I mean, there are so many unknown unknowns for people who are not experts in this space. >>They will not catch the problem. You will go through pain, right? So it's not a learning project. It's not the research from a project. This is very essential to the operation of your business and to it. And there's many examples like that, >>Right? Yeah. So I want to end by just sort of connecting the dots. So this makes a lot of sense. And if you think about, you know, Auburn Christian said that IBM has got to win the architectural battle for hybrid cloud. And when I think of hybrid cloud, I think of on-prem connecting to public cloud, not only the IBM public cloud, but other public clouds going across clouds, going to the edge, bringing OpenShift and Kubernetes to the edge and developing new, supporting new workload. So as it is like the university keeps expanding and it gets more and more and more complicated. So to your point, humans are not going to be able to solve the classic performance problems in the classic way. Uh, they're going to need automation. So it really does fit well into IBM's hybrid cloud strategy, your, your thoughts, and I'll give you the last word. >>Yeah, totally. I mean IBM generally is of course, very far ahead in, in regards to AI and all these things, this desk, sorry, those could be combined within standard, very, very, you know, natively, right. We, we are prepared to automate using AI all of the, well, I would want to claim that all of the monitoring observability problems, of course there is manual work in some, uh, you know, in some cases you simply don't know what people want to observe, so you kind of need to give them names and that's what people come in, but this is more a creative work. Like you don't want to do the stupid work with people. It doesn't, you know, there is no, it doesn't make any sense. And IBM of course, um, requiring and Stan, I guess, you know, the foundation for all of the things that that used to be done by, by hand now fully automated, combined within starlet, combined with Watson AI ops. This is, this is huge. This is a real great story. Like the best research at the world meeting, uh, probably the best APM summit. >>That's great. Uh, Pablo really appreciate you taking us through and Stata and the trends and observability and what's going on at IBM and congratulations on your success. And thanks for hanging with us with all the craziness going on at your abode and, uh, really, it was a pleasure having you on. Thank you. Thanks a lot. Thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante and the ongoing coverage of IBM. Think 2021. You're watching the cube.

>>from >>around the >>globe, it's the cube >>with digital coverage of >>IBM think 2021 >>brought to >>you by IBM >>everybody welcome back to the cubes, continuous coverage of IBM think 2021 the virtual edition, my name is Dave Volonte and we're gonna talk about observe ability front and center for devops and developers, things are really changing. We're going from monitoring and logs and metrics and just this mess and now we're bringing in a I and machine intelligence and with us is Pablo Baron, who is the Ceo of inst ana, which is an IBM company that IBM acquired november of 2020. Pablo great to see you. Thanks for joining us from Munich. >>Thanks for having me. Thanks a lot. >>You're very welcome. So you know, I always love to talk to founders and co founders and try to understand sort of why they started their companies and congratulations on the exit. That's awesome. After 55 I'm sure grinding but relatively short years. Why did you guys start in stana? And what were some of the trends that you saw in that you're seeing now in the observe ability space? >>Yeah, that's a very good question. So, um, the journey began ah, as we worked in the company called code centric, the majority of the founders and uh, we actually specialized in troubleshooting uh, well, real hard customer performance problems. We used all different kinds of A PM solutions for that. You know, we, we've built expertise like collectively maybe 300 years in the whole company. So we would go from one um, adventure into the other and see customers suffer and help them, you know, overcome this trouble. At some point we started seeing architectures coming up that were not well covered by the classic KPM sellers, like people went after this. Sudha, Sudha, Sudha virtualization all in containers, you know, just dropping random workloads into container running this maybe in cabinet as well. Not not actually not 56 ago, but years ago. But you get the point, we started with the heavy continues container ization and we've seen that a classic A PM solution that is heavily, you know, like machinery rented and and some of them you've encountered by the number of CPU etcetera etcetera. They were very well suited for this. Plus all of the workloads are so dynamic. They keep coming and going. You cannot really, you know, place your agent there that is not adopting to change continuously. We've seen this coming and we really, we've seen the trouble that we cannot really support the customers properly. So after looking around, we just said, hey, uh, I think it's time to just implement a new one. Right? So we started that adventure with the idea of a constant change, with the idea of everything is containers, with idea of everything goes towards glove needed. People just run random uh workloads of all different versions that are linked altogether than this. Whole microservices trend came up where people would just break down their monoliths and resilience of literally very small components that could be deployed independently. Everything keeps changing all the time. The classic solution cannot keep up with that. >>So let me pick it up from there if I can. So it's interesting. Your timing is quite amazing because as you mentioned, it really wasn't kubernetes when you started in the middle part of last decade. You know, containers have been around for a long time, but kubernetes weren't, it wasn't mainstream back then. So you had some foresight uh and and the market has just come right into your vision but but maybe talk a little bit about the way A. P. M. Used to work. It was, I started to talk about this. It was metrics, it was traces, it was logs, it was make your eyes bleed type of type of stuff. Um, and maybe you can talk about how you guys are different and how you're accommodating the rapid changes in the market today. >>Right? So well there is very, very many um cases this. So first of all we always have seen that the work that you should not be doing by hand. I mean we already said that you should not be doing this and you should be automating as much as possible. We see this everywhere in the industry that everything gets more and more automated. We want to animate through the whole continuous delivery cycle. Unfortunately monitoring was the space that probably never was automated before installing a came into place. So our idea was, hey, just just get rid of the unnecessary work because you keep people busy with stuff they should not be doing like manually watching dashboards, setting up agents with every single software change, like adopting configuration etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. All of these things can be done automatically, you know, to very, very, very large extent. And that's what we did. We did this from the beginning, everything we approached, we, we, we think twice about can we automate, you know, the maximum out of it And only if we see that it's, it's, you know, too much an effort, etcetera. We will, we will probably not do this, but otherwise we're not, we don't do the same thing. You know, you can compromise the other right? The other aspect is, so this is different to the classic A PM world that is typically very expert heavy. The expert comes into, you know, into the project and really starts configuring etcetera, etcetera etcetera. This is this is a totally different approach the other approaches continuous change and you know, adapting to the continuous change, container comes up, you need to know what this kind of workload, what kind of work load this thing is, how it is connected to all the others. And then at some point probably it's gonna it's gonna go through the change and get a new versions etcetera etcetera. You need to capture this whole life cycle without really changing your monitoring system. Plus, if you move your workloads from the classic Monolith, through microservices on to cuba needs, you kind of transitioning, you know, it's a journey and this journey, you want to keep your business abstractions as stable as possible. The term application is nothing that you should be reconfiguring. Once you figure out what is payment in your system. This is a stable abstraction. It doesn't matter if you deliver it on containers. Doesn't matter if this is just a huge JBM that owns the whole box alone. It simply doesn't matter. So we we decoupled everything infrastructure from everything logic and uh the foundation for this is what we call the dynamic ground. It technically is pretty much a data structure. Regular graph data structure with, you know, connections in multiple directions from different notes. But the point is that we actually decompose the whole, I teach geography. This is the term I like to use because there is, there is no other its infrastructure, its topology, it is on the other hand, just, you know, same sides of the same thing. When you have a limits process, it can be HIV m it's just at the same time, it can be approached with an application, it's the same thing and given different names and this different faces of this thing can be linked with everything else in a totally different way. So we're decomposing this from the beginning of the product which allows us to to have a very deep and hierarchical understanding of problems when it appears. So we can nail it not down to a metric. That probably doesn't make sense to any user but really name the cause by look in this J. V. M, the drop wizard metric exercise that is misbehaving. This indicates that this particular piece of technology is broken and here's how it's broken. So there's a built in explanation to a problem. So um the the classic eight pm as I said, it is a very expert heavy um, territory we try to automate the expert. We have this guy called stan this is your you know, kind of virtual devoPS engineer has a I in there. It has some artificial brain, it never sleeps, it observes all of the problems. It really is an amazing guy because nobody likes him because he always tells you what's broken. You don't need to invite them to the party and give them a raise just there and conserving your systems. >>I like stand, I like stand better than fred, no offense to fred but friends of the guy in the lab coat that I have to call every time to help me fix my problems and what you're describing is end to end visibility or observe ability in terms that norm either normal people can understand or certainly stand, can understand and can automate. And that kind of leads me to this notion of anti patterns um getting software, we think of anti patterns as you know you have software hairballs and software bloat, you've got stovepipe systems, your your data guy by background and so you will understand stovepiped data systems, there's organizational examples of of of anti patterns like micromanagement or over an analysis by paralysis. If you will, how do anti patterns fit into this world? Of observe ability? What do you see? >>Oh there's many, I could write a whole book actually about that. Um let me just list a few. So first of all it is valid for any kind of automation, what you can automate you should not be doing by hand, this is a very common entire pattern. People are just doing work by hand just because the lazy word, you know like repetitive work or there is no kind of foundation to automate that whatever the reason, this is clearly an anti pattern. What we, what we also see in the monitoring space are very interesting things like normally since the problems in the observe ability monitoring space is so hard, You normally send your best people watching grants who want them to contribute to the business value rather than waste the time observing charts that like 99 of them are normal. The other aspect, of course, is what we also have seen is the other side of the spectrum where people just send total mobilizes into the, into the problem of observe ability and let them learn on the subject. Which is also not a good thing because you cannot really I mean there are so many unknown unknowns for people who are not experts in the space. They will not catch the problem. You will go through pain, right? So it's not the learning project, that's not the research from a project. This is very essential to the operation of humor, business and humanity. And there's many examples like that, >>right? Yeah. So I want to end by just sort of connecting the dots so this makes a lot of sense. And if you think about, you know, Ivan Kushner said that IBM has got to win the architectural battle for hybrid cloud. And when I think of Hybrid cloud, I think of on prem connecting to public cloud, not only the IBM public cloud but other public clouds going across clouds going to the edge, bringing open shift and kubernetes to the edge and developing new supporting new workloads. So as I. T. Is like the university keeps expanding and it gets more and more and more complicated. So to your point humans are not going to be able to solve the classic performance problems in the classic way. Uh they're gonna need automation. So it really does fit well into iBMS hybrid cloud strategy, your, your thoughts and I'll give you the last word. >>Yeah, totally. I mean, I'm IBM generally is of course very far ahead in regards to research AI and all these things this death, sorry, those could be combined with an stand a very, very, you know, natively right. We we are prepared to automate using AI all of the well, I would want to claim that all of the monitoring observe ability problems. Of course, there is manual work in some, you know, in some cases you simply don't know what people want to observe. So you kind of need to give them names and that's where people come in. But this is more creative work. Like you don't want to do the stupid work with people. It doesn't, you know, there is no, it doesn't make any sense. And IBM of course, um requiring in stana gets, you know, the foundation for all of the things that used to be done by hand. Now, fully automated, combined within standard, combined with Watson, the ions, This is, this is huge. This is like a real great story, like the best research of the world eating. Uh, probably the best a PMC. >>That's great Pablo, really appreciate you taking us through Astana and the trends and observe ability and what's going on at IBM. And congratulations on your, your success and thanks for hanging with us with all the craziness going on at your abode. And uh really, it was a pleasure having you on. Thank you. >>Thanks a lot. >>All right, and thank you for watching everybody says Dave Volonte and our ongoing coverage of IBM, think 2021 you're watching the Cube? Yeah. Mhm

>>from >>around the globe. It's the >>cube >>With digital coverage of IBM. Think 2021 brought to you by IBM. >>Welcome back to the cubes, continuous coverage of IBM Think 2021. My name is Dave Volonte and I'm one of your hosts for our virtual coverage. We're gonna talk about cloud and hybrid cloud, what it is, what it means to clients and how the cloud journey will likely unfold in the coming several years with me to address these issues is varun vigilante. Who is the managing partner? Hybrid cloud transformation at IBM Welcome Baron. Good to see you. >>Thank you. Dave. Wonderful to talk to you. >>So you hear people talk about, you know, they say cloud first cloud, we've got a cloud first strategy. What does that even mean? What is a cloud strategy? Is it a technology roadmap? Is it is it an experience? Is it a business strategy? What really is a cloud strategy all about? And importantly how does it support business outcomes? That's really what matters? >>Brilliant. Great question. I always believe it's less about the journey to the cloud and it's more important what you do when you get there. That is, you know, what business outcomes does it actually support no many different starting points for an enterprise to embark upon a cloud enabled transformation, you know, things like reducing technical debt and costs, creating new products and services, accelerating time to market and even changing working practices in an organization. Now, as we work with clients, we are seeing increasingly value coming from open innovation. What I mean by that is expanded revenue opportunities with broad ecosystems, you know, new ideas, new platforms and increased time to market. Now accessing value from what we call those ecosystems and that open innovation we believe requires open hybrid, multi cloud architecture with that, it enables you to plug into those those ecosystems, allows you to fully consider modernization across your estate and creates consistent operating models also helps reduce talent and risk a skill risks that organization have. And interestingly, this is exactly where Red Hat also shines as it's the best hybrid cloud platform out there today. But coming back to the main objective around business objectives, we're seeing that when leaders anchor their transformation on such a holistic strategy, they are driving towards 2.5 times uh increased economic return as compared to let's say, just a you know, singular one single public cloud strategy. And they're able to drive impact on their business case across multiple dimensions. Things like accelerating the business or impacting top line new products services. Number two is around accelerating application development and optimizing costs associated with that estate, uh improving infrastructure, utilization, um reducing the cost of security and compliance. And that gives that architectural flexibility. But that was the basis of approach with clients like Delta and somebody used. Therefore cloud is absolutely about business outcomes. Both top line and bottom line. >>Yeah, really trying to change that operating model versus of the of the organization versus just the I. T. Model. And then we can talk about some of the headwinds that organizations face and maybe some of the typical challenges after they get to the to the cloud, whether its organizational technical, this integration, the security, maybe even culture. What are you seeing in that regard? >>Spot on. I think you've already started recognizing some of those, you know, when when uh clients started earlier in the journey, they started focusing on consumer driven innovation. They had digital and AI experimentation and we saw user applications moving to the glove. Now they are recognizing the need to look at enterprise driven innovation and how do you start embedding AI into the business at scale. And therefore they are now realizing that they need to look at their core portfolio, Their mission critical applications. You know, 90 of companies, Uh, we're on the cloud in 2019, but In all estimates only about 20 of their work lords actually move to the cloud. So, uh, there are a number of different challenges that our our clients face. You know, things like economic limits to how many work lords you can move to the public club, you called out security and regulatory challenges yourself speed to value or dealing with complex applications and the uncertain interactions, the data, gravity and dependencies. Sometimes they get into the loop of analysis. Paralysis. You know, another one that I get quite closely involved with this. Does the cloud technology transformation actually drive and deliver process change. Does it take your old business process and make it into an intelligent workflow? The other dimension is execution in silos today and Federated organizational constructs, the lack of the right skill and expertise and then finally is things like technology locking and and the struggle that people have with inflexible tools and methods which hinder scale and speed. So those are a few things >>when I think about just the history of cloud, modern cloud, you know, there was there was a lot of tire kicking early on and then the financial crisis actually accelerated some moves to cloud and then coming out of that there was a lot of shadow I. T. But was still, as you pointed out very early days. Uh and then you know, the comment you made about mission critical. It is kind of interesting to me because I'm curious as and you set out a vision before of what I call this, this layer of abstraction that hides the complexity. I don't care if I'm on prem in a public cloud across clouds. The edge. I I just I want you to take care of that in R and D. I want to worry about my business and so, so we're early days. Do people want to move their mission critical workloads to the cloud and why? Or do they just want to create a modernization layer and hide that complexity? You know, maybe in the context of some of those challenges that you can talk about. What are you, how are you advising clients that they take the next step in? And of course how IBM can help? >>Oh, spot on. So yes, I think now they're recognizing that there is value of looking at those complex core applications and looking at where should that what needs to happen to my complex core application? My mission critical applications. Do I need to uh defragment that? Do I need to decompose into uh new capabilities? Do I need to just move it to the cloud? Do I need to keep it where it is? Because in some instances that's where I get maximum security and data gravity. So if I reflect on this, I think there are four key things I would call out as what I would call the get rights. Uh Number one is ensure that we are aligning with business outcomes. Number two, clarity of target architecture and portfolio. Number three is accelerating the journey with the right methods, tools and patterns. And The 4th 1 which is closest to my heart is about delivering via an improved operating model. So let's let's just scratched the surface on this a little bit. Now, when you talk about aligning with business outcomes, first, of course is clear business ownership and alignment with the overall strategy. What's important is what capabilities does the business need to deliver that strategy and how is cloud going to help enable those capabilities? For example, you know, integration with ecosystem partners, faster launch of new products and services, monetizing data assets, things like that. And this was one of the key drivers for a health care company that I recently worked with in north America. When we talk about clarity of target portfolio, you know, this is about what's my architects are going to be across the edge on prem private, public. What should I do to my applications and where should they decide Should I keep, should I kill, should I modernize? What should I do? So for example, we've seen, you know, a lot of companies around 15 of applications. You may not touch at all. 20 of those applications you may replace with Saas solutions Uh 45-50 is where you start looking at modernizing and that's where you look at. What do you do with your monolithic applications and how do you modernize them? And around 15 you might say is building brand new native capabilities on the cloud. So that's kind of the second get right. The third was about accelerating with proven patterns and methods and tools and this is about increasing speed to value early wins and being able to analyze and decompose complex applications quickly and reliably and once they're executing on their journey, how do you grow from garage? Two skilled capabilities. Now here we've made some uh you know, strong focus and investments in this space. We have a set of standard patterns that allow you to modernize and migrate applications, you know, depending on looking at your operating system, the integration technology, the container standards and so on. And it's important to have the right tools that bring in AI and machine learning to bear. For example, we have our own, you know, card advisory tool that looks at the operating system and the code to explain and give guidance on what disposition and what container Ization is most applicable. And then finally, you know, this consistent operating model, how should the ways of working actually change on the ground? How should platform engineering and the application teams work together? Should I instant share that with a competency center that helps me get onto the journey, How do I have the right skills not being siloed? The consistent security approach, especially for companies that are looking at real complex mission critical workloads to them, that becomes even more important and in regulated environments. So to recap, I'd say those four things, alignment with the business clarity of target portfolio accelerating with the right methods and tools and of course embedding through a sustainable operating model cause they're >>Great, thank you for that. I would say my takeaway is this is not your grandfather's application rationalization exercise, which was a kind of a one shot deal every 10 years, oh y two K we're going to whatever it was and what you're describing is essentially a way to have continuous improvement. There's obviously a lot of automation there, but very importantly there's a gain sharing aspect where you can reinvest in innovation and I think, you know, one of the areas you mentioned is ecosystem, we haven't even talked about it, we don't have the time, but the whole data opportunity there for around innovation because that is how ecosystems they're gonna form around, you know, that data model and it's a it's a it's a new world and and ruin. Thank you so much for your very articulate vision that you set out and congratulations on all the progress that you've made and I really appreciate your time. >>Thank you very much. A wonderful to talk to you. Looking forward to more conversations. >>Alright. I am as well. And thank you for watching everybody's day volonte for the Cube. You're watching our continuous coverage of IBM think 2021 the virtual edition will be right back. >>Mm.

>> Live from San Francisco. It's the cube covering IBM thing twenty nineteen brought to you by IBM. >> Hello and welcome back to the Cubes. Live coverage here and savor still were alive for IBM. Think twenty nineteen. The Cubes Exclusive contract. Jon for a stimulant in our next two guests of the Cloud gurus and IBM and VM Where A. J. Patel senior vice president general manager Cloud Providers Software Business Unit. Good to see you again. Baron. Scram A general manager. IBM Cloud Guys. Thanks for Spend the time. Get to the cloud gurus. Get it? They're having What's going on? Having privilege. Osti Cloud's been around. We've seen the public Cloud Momentum hybrid Certainly been around for a while. Multi clouds of big conversation. People are having role of data that is super important. Aye, aye, anywhere you guys, an IBM have announced because I've been on this. I'm on >> a journey or a >> library for awhile. On premise. It was on VM, where all the good stuff's happening. This the customers customers want this talk about the relationship you guys have with IBM. >> You know, the broad of'em were IBM relationship over nine, ten years old. I had the privilege of being part of the cloud the last couple years. The momentum is amazing. Over seventeen hundred plus customers and the Enterprise customers, not your you know, one node trial customer. These are really mission critical enterprise customers using this at that scale, and the number one thing we hear from customers is make it easy for me to leverage Plowed right, operate in the world when I'm using my own prim and my public cloud assets make it seamless, and this is really what we've talked about a lot, right? How do we provide that ubiquitous digital platform for them to operate in this hybrid world? And we're privileged to have IBM Of the great partner in this journey >> are some of the IBM cloud, Ginny Rometty said on CNBC this morning. We saw the interview with my friend John Ford over there. Aye, aye. Anywhere means going run on any cloud. Watson with containers. That's cloud DNA. Sitting the cloud with good Burnett ease and containers is changing the game. Now you can run a lot of things everywhere. This's what customers want. End to end from on. Premise to wherever. How has that changed the IBM cloud posture? Its products? You share a little bit of that. >> You absolutely so look I mean, people have their data in different places, and as you know, it's a really expensive to move stuff around. You gotta make sure it's safe, etcetera, So we want to take our applications and run them against the data wherever they are right? And when you think about today's landscape in the cloud industry, I think it's a perfect storm, a good, perfect storm and that containers and Kubernetes, you know, everyone's rallying around at the ecosystem that consumers, the providers. And it just makes us easy for us to take that capability and really make it available on multicloud. And that's what we're doing. >> to talk about your joint customers. Because the BM where has a lot of operators running, running virtually change? For a long time, you guys have been big supporters of that and open source that really grew that whole generation that was seeing with cloud talk about your customers, your mo mentum, Howyou, guys air, just ballpark. How many customers you guys have together? And what if some of the things that they're doing >> all right? So I know this is a really interesting story. I was actually away from IBM for just over two years. But one of the last things I did when I was an IBM the first time around was actually start this Veum where partnership and seated the team that did it. So coming back, it's really interesting to see the uptake it's had, You know, we've got, like, seven hundred customers together over seventeen hundred customers. Together, we've moved tens of thousands of'em workloads, and as I just said, we've done it in a mission. Critical fashion across multiple zones across multiple regions. On now, you know, we want to take it to the next level. We want to make sure that these people that have moved their basic infrastructure and the mission critical infrastructure across the public cloud can extend those applications by leveraging the cloud near application that we have on our cloud. Plus, we want to make it possible for them to move their workloads to other parts of the IBM ecosystem in terms of our capabilities. >> Any one of the things we found was the notion of modernizer infrastructure, first lift and then transform. He's starting to materialize, and we used to talk about this has really the way the best way to use, cowed or use hybrid cloud was start by just uplifting your infrastructure and whether it's west back, you ask for some customers. I respect a great example. I think that we're talking about it in the Parisian. I joined presentation tomorrow or you look at, you know, Kaiser, who's going to be on stage tomorrow? We're seeing industries across the board are saying, You know, I have a lot of complexity sitting on aging hardware, older versions of infrastructure software. How do I modernize A platform first lifted, shifted to leverage a cloud. And then I could transform my application using more and more portable service that'S covering decides to provide a kind of infrastructure portability. But what about my data, Right. What about if I could run my application with the data? So I think we're starting to see the securing of the use of cloud based on workloads and averaging that's that's >> Yeah, a J. What wonder if we could dig a little love level deeper on that? Because, you know, I think backto, you know, fifteen years or so ago, it was bm where allowed me to not have to worry about my infrastructure. My, you know OS in my you know, server that I was running on might be going end of life. Well, let me shove it in a V M. And then I couldn't stand the life, and then I can manage how that happens. Course. The critique I would have is maybe it's time to update that that application anyway, so I like the message that you're saying about Okay, let me get a to a process where I'm a little bit freer of where, and then I can do the hard work of updating that data. Updating that application, you know, help us understand. >> It's no longer about just unlocking the compute right, which was worth trying the server. It's What about my network we talked about earlier? Do I need a suffered If our network well, the reality is, everything is going programmable. If you want a program of infrastructure, it's compute network storage all software defined. So the building block for us is a suffer to find data center running on the infrastructure that IBM pride sixty plus data centers bare metal at Scholastic and then leering that with IBM cloud private, whether it's hosted or on premise, fear gives you that full stack that nirvana, the people talk about supportable stack going, talk about >> right and adding to what he said, right? You said, You know, it's not about just moving your old stuff to the to the cloud. Absolutely. So as I said in one of the earlier conversations that we have, we had is we have a whole wealth of new services, whether it's Blockchain R. I o. T or the that used. You spoke about leveraging those capabilities to further extend your app and give it a new lease of life to provide new insights is what it's all about. >> What? Well, that that that's great, because it's one thing to just say, Okay, I get it there. Can I get better utilization? Is that change my pricing? But it's the services, and that's kind of the promise of the cloud is, you know, if I built something in my environment, that's great and I can update and I can get updates. But if I put it in your environment, you can help manage some of those things as well as I should have access to all of these services. IBM's got a broad ecosystem can you give us? You know what are some of the low hanging fruit is to people when they get there, that they're unlocking data that they're using things like a I What? What What are some of the most prevalent services that people are adding when they go to the IBM clouds? >> So when you look at people who first moved their work list of the cloud, typically they tend to dip their toe in the water. They take what's running on Prem. They used the IRS capabilities in the cloud and start to move it there. But the real innovation really starts to happen further up the stock, so to speak. The platform is a service, things like a II OT blocked and all the things that I mentioned, eso es very natural. Next movement is to start to modernize those applications and add to it. Capability is that it could never have before because, you know it was built in a monolith and it was on prim, and it was kind of stuck there. So now the composition that the cloud gives you with all of these rich services where innovation happens first, that is the real benefit to our customers. >> Every she said, you took a little hiatus from IBM and went out outside IBM. Where did you go and what did you learn? What was that? Goldman Jack. JP Morgan, Where were you? >> So it was a large bank. You know, I'm not not allowed to say the name of the bank. >> One of those two. It >> was a large bank on, and it wasn't the U S. So that narrows down the field. Some >> What is it like to go outside? They'll come inside. U C Davis for cutting edge bank. Now you got IBM Cloud. You feel good about where things are. >> Yeah. You know, if you look at what a lot of these banks are trying to do, they start to attack the cloud journey saying we're going to take everything that ran in the bank for years and years and years. And we're going to, you know, make them micro services and put them all on public cloud. And that's when you really hit the eighty twenty percent problem because you've got a large monolith that don't lend themselves to be re factored and moved out. Tio, eh, Public cloud. So you know again, Enter communities and containers, etcetera. These allow you a way to modernize your applications where you can either deploy those containerized You know, piers you go type models on prim or on public. And if you have a rich enough set of services both on Prem in on the public loud, you can pretty much decide how much of it runs on Trevor's is becoming much more clouds >> moment choice. So really, it's finding deployment. So basically, what you're saying is that we get this right. I want to get your reaction. This You don't have to kill the old to bring in the new containers and Cooper netease and now service measures around the corner. You can bring in new work clothes, take advantage of the cutting edge technology and manage your life cycle of the work loads on the old side or it just can play along. I >> think what we're finding is, you know, we moved from hybrid being a destination to an operating model, and it's no longer about doing this at scale like my multi clark. Any given applications tied to a cloud or destination? It's a late binding decision, but as an aggregate. I may be amusing multiple close, right. So that more model we're moving to is really about a loving developer. Super your workload centric and services centric to see Where do I want to run in Africa? >> Okay, what one of the challenges with multi cloud is their skill sets. I need to worry about it. It can be complex. I want to touch on three points and love to get both your viewpoints, networking, security and management. How do we help tackle that? Make that simple >> right off customers? >> Yeah, sure. So you know, I think when you think about clouds, public clouds especially it's beyond your data center and the mindset out there as if it's beyond my data center. It can be safe. But when you start to build those constructs in the modern era, you really do take care of a lot of things that perhaps you're on Prem pieces that not take into consideration when they were built like many decades ago. Right? So with the IBM public Cloud, for example, you know, security's at the heart of it. We have a leadership position. There was one of the things that we've announced is people keep protect for not only Veum, where workload visa and we sphere etcetera, but also for other applications making use off our public cloud services. Then, when you talk about our Z, you know we have a hardware as security model, which is fifty one forty, level two or dash to level four, which nobody else in the industry has. So when you put your key in there on ly, the customer can take it out, not him. Azaz clouds of his providers can touch it. It will basically disintegrate, you know, sort of speak >> H ey. Talk about VM wears customer base inside the IBM ecosystem. What's new? What should they pay attention to? As you guys continue the momentum. >> So I think if you look at the last two years, it's been around what we call these larger enterprise. Dedicated clouds. Exciting thing in the horizon is we're adding a multi tenant IRS on top of this BM, we're dedicated. So being able to provide that Brett off access thing with dedicated multi tenant public out I, as fully programmable, allows us to go downmarket. So expect the customer kind of go up being able to consume it on a pay as you go basis leveraging kind of multi tenant with dedicated, but it's highly secure or for depth test. So are the use cases kind of joke. We're going to see a much larger sort of use cases that I'm most excited about >> is the bottom line. Bottom line me. I'm the customer. Bottom line me. What's in it for me? What I got >> for the customers with a safest choice, right? It's the mission critical secure cloud. You can now run the same application on Prem in a dedicated environment in public, Claude on IBM or in a multi tenant >> world. And on the Klaxon match on the cloud sign. I could take advantage of all the things you have and take advantage of that. Watson A. I think that Rob Thomas has been talking about Oh yeah, >> absolutely. And again. You know the way that we built I c P forty, which is IBM plowed private for data. You know, it's all containerized. It's orchestrated by Coop, so you can not only build it. You can either run it on crime. You can run it on our public loud or you can run it on other people's public clouds as well >> nourished for customers and for people. They're looking at IBM Cloud and re evaluating you guys now again saying Or for the first time, what should they look at? Cloud private? What key thing would you point someone to look at, IBM? They were going to inspect your cloud offering >> so again, and it's back to my story in the bank. Right? It's, uh you can't do everything in the public cloud, right? There are just certain things that need to remain on creme On. We'll be so for the foreseeable future. So when you take a look at our hybrid story, the fact that it is has a consistent based on which it is built on. It is a industry standard open source base. You know, you build your application to suit the needs of an application, right? Is it low lately? See, Put it on. Crim. You need some cloud Native services. Put it on the public cloud. Do you need to be near your data that lives on somebody else's cloud? Go put it on their cloud. Right. So it really is not a one. Size fits all its whatever your business >> customer where he is, right? That's often >> the way flexibility, choice, flexibility. Enjoy the store for all things cloud. >> Yeah, last thing I want to ask is where to developers fit in tow this joint Solucion >> es O. So I think the biggest thing is that's trying to change for us is making these services available in a portable manner. When do I couldn't lock into the public cloud service with particular data and unlocking that from the infrastructures will be a key trend. So for us, it's about staying true to Coburn eddies and upstream with the distribution. So it's portable for wanting more and more services and making it easy for them to access a catalogue of services on a bagel manner but then making operation a viable. So then you're deployed. You can support the day two operations that are needed. So it's a full life cycle with developers not having to worry about the heavy burden of running an operating. What >> exactly? You know, it's all about the developers. As you well know in the cloud world, the developer is the operator. So as long as you can give him or her, the right set of tools to do C. I C. Dev ops on DH get things out there in a consistent fashion, whether it is on a tram or a public cloud. I think it's a win for all. >> That's exactly the trend We're seeing operations moving to more developers and more big time operational scale questions where your programming, the infrastructure. Absolutely. Developers. You don't want to deal with it >> and making it work. Listen tricks. So you know when to deploy. What workload? Having full control. That's part of the deployment >> exam. Alright, final question. I know we got a break. We're in tight on time. Final point share perspective of what's what's important here happening. And IBM. Think twenty nineteen people who didn't make it here in San Francisco are watching. You have to top cloud executives on VM wear and IBM here as biased towards cloud, of course. But you know, if you're watching, what's the most important story happening this week? What's what's going on with IBM? Think Why is this conference this week important? >> I think for us, it's basically saying We're here to meet you where you are, regardless, where you on your customer journey. It's all about choice. It's no longer only about public Cloud, and you now have a lot of capably of your finger trips to take your legacy workloads or your neck, new workplace or any app anywhere we can help you on that journey. That would be the case with >> you, and I wouldn't go that right, said it slightly differently. You know, a lot of the public service of public cloud service providers kind of bring you over to their public loud, and then you're kind of stuck over there and customers don't like that. I mean, you look at the statistics for everybody has at least two or more public clouds. They're worried about the connective ity, the interoperability, the security costs, the cost, the skills to manage all of it. And I think we have the perfect solution of solutions that really start Teo. Speak to that problem. >> So the world's getting more complex as more functionalities here, Software's gonna distract it away. Developers need clean environment to work in programmable infrastructure. >> And you know where an IBM Safe Choice, choice, choice. >> We have to go on top to cloud executives here. Inside the cue from IBM of'em were bringing all the coverage. Was the Cube here in the lobby of Mosconi North on Howard Street in San Francisco for IBM? Think twenty. Stay with us for more coverage after this short break. Thank you. Thank you.