>>I want to welcome back to the cubes coverage. We're here at another event in person I'm John furrier, host of the cube. We've got to CNCF coop con cloud native con for in-person 2021. And we're back. It's a hybrid event and we're streaming lives on all channels, as well as all the folks watching a great guest kicking off the show here from the co-chairs from cataract coast. Is that right? Danielle Cook. Who's the vice president at Fairwinds and John Foreman director at Accenture. Thanks for coming on your co-chair. Your third co-chair is not here, but you guys are here to talk about the cloud maturity model. Pretty mature funding is flowing tons of announcements. We're going to have a startup on $200 million. They're announcing in funding and observability of all of all hot spaces. Um, so the maturity is it's the journey in the cloud native space now is crossed over to mainstream. That's the we've been telling that story for a couple of years. Now, you guys have been working on this. Tell us about the cloud maturity model you guys worked on. >>So we got together earlier this year because we, um, four of us had been working on maturity models. So Simon Forester, who is one of the co-chairs, who isn't here, he had worked on a maturity model that looked at your legacy journey, all the way to cloud native, um, myself, I had been part of the Fairwinds team working on the Kubernetes maturity model. So, and then, um, we have Robbie, who's not here. And John Foreman, who we all got together, they had worked on a maturity model and we put it together and I've been working since February to go, what is cloud native maturity and what are the stages you need to go through to achieve maturity. So put this together and now we have this great model that people can use to take them from. I have no idea what cloud native is to the steps they can take to actually be a mature organization. >>And, you know, you've made it when you have a book here. So just hold that up to the camera real quick. So you can see it. It's very much in spirit of the community, but in all seriousness, it book's great, but this is a real need. What was the pain point? What was jumping out at you guys on the problem? Was it just where people like trying to get more cloud native, they want to go move faster. It was a confusing, what were the problems you solve in? >>Well, and if anything is, if we start at the beginning, right, there was during the cloud journey DevSecOps and the Kootenays being a thing that then there's journeys to DevSecOps tributaries as well. But everything is leading to cloud native. It's about the journey to cloud native. So everybody, you know, we're taught to go John, the ecosystem's an eyesore man. If I look at, you know, landscape, >>The whole map I >>Need, it's just like in trend map, it's just so confusing what we do. So every time we go to, I revert the wheel and I get them from zero to hero. So we just put together a model instead that we can re reuse yeah. As a good reference architecture. So from that is a primary, how we built because the native trademark you have with us today. So it's a five scale model from one to five what's twice today, or how to, to, you know, what our job is getting to a five where they could optimize a really rocket rolling. >>You know, it's interesting. I love these inflection points and, you know, being a student of history and the tech business there's moments where things are the new thing, and they're really truly new things like first-time operationalized dev ops. I mean the hardcore dev ops or early adopters we've been doing that, you know, we know that, but now mainstream, like, okay, this is a real disruption in a positive way. So the transformation is happening and it's new, new roles, new, new workflows, new, uh, team formations. So there's a, it's complicated in the sense of getting it up and running so I can see the need. How can you guys share your data on where people are? Because now you have more data coming in, you have more people doing dev ops, more cloud native development, and you mentioned security shepherds shifting left. Where's the data tell you, is it, as you said, people are more like a two or more. What's the, what's the data say? >>So we've had, so part of pulling this model together was your experience at Accenture, helping clients, the Fairwinds, um, experience, helping people manage Kubernetes. And so it's from out dozens of clusters that people have managed going, okay, where are people? And they don't even know where they are. So if we provide the guidelines from them, they can read it and go, oh, I am at about two. So the data is actually anecdotal from our experiences at our different companies. Um, but we, you know, we we've made it so that you can self identify, but we've also recognized that you might be at stage two for one application, but five for another application. So just because you're on this journey, doesn't mean everything is in, >>It's not boiler plate. It's really unique to every enterprise because they everyone's different >>Journey. Put you in journey with these things. A big part of this also torn apart one to five, your clients wants to in denial, you know? So, so Mr. CX level, you are level two. We are not, there's no way we would deal with this stuff for years. You've got to be a five. No, sorry. You're too. >>So >>There's use denial also about this. People think they do a cloud-native director rolling, and I'm looking at what they're doing and go, okay, do you do workups security? And they go, what's that? I go, exactly. So we really need to peel back the onion, start from seed year out and we need to be >>All right. So I want to ask more about the, um, the process and how that relates to the themes are involved. What are some of the themes around the maturity model that you guys can share that you see that people can look at and say, how do I self identify? What's the process will come to expect? >>Well, one of the things we did when we were putting it together was we realized that there were themes coming out amongst the maturity model itself. So we realized there's a whole people layer. There's a whole policy layer process and technology. So this maturity model does not just look at, Hey, this is the tech you need to do. It looks at how you introduce cloud native to your organization. How do you take the people along with it? What policies you need to put in place the process. So we did that first and foremost, but one of the things that was super important to all of us was that security was ever present throughout it. Because as everything is shifting left, you need to be looking at security from day one and considering how it's going to happen and roll out from your developers all the way to your compliance people. Um, it's super important. And one of the themes throughout. >>So, so it would be safe to say, then that security was a catalyst for the maturity models because you gotta be mature. I mean, security, you don't fool around security. >>About the last year when I created the program for, since I worked with Cheryl Holland, from CCF, we put together the community certification, her special program. I saw a need where security was a big gap in communities. Nobody knew anything about it. They wanted to use the old rack and stack ways of doing it. They wanted to use their tray micro tombs from yesteryear, and that doesn't work anymore. You need a new set of tools for Kubernetes. It's the upgrade system. It's different way of doing things. So that knowledge is critical. So I think you're part of this again, on this journey was getting certifications out there for people to understand how to do better. Now, the next phase of that now it's how do we put all these pieces together and built this roadmap? >>Well, it's a great group. You guys have the working groups hard to pronounce the name, but, uh, it's a great effort because one of the things I'm hearing and we've been reporting this one, the Cubans looking angle is the modern software developers want speed, and they don't want to wait for the old slow groups now and security, and it are viewed as blockers and like slow things down. And so you start to see a trend where those groups could provide policy and then start putting, feeding up, uh, data models that allow the developers in real time to do their coding, to shift left and to be efficient and move on and code not be waiting for weeks or days >>Comes to play. So today is the age of Caleb's right now, get up this emerging we're only to have now where everything is code policies, code, securities, code policies, cookie figures, code. That is the place for, and then again, walk a fusion more need for a cargo office. >>Okay. What's your thoughts on that? >>So I think what's really important is enabling service ownership, right? You need the developers to be able to do security, see policy, see it live and make sure that, you know, you're not your configuration, isn't stopping the build or getting into production. So, you know, we made sure that was part of the maturity model. Like you need to be looking continuous scanning throughout checking security checking policy. What is your process? Um, and we, you know, we made that ever present so that the developers are the ones who are making sure that you're getting to Kubernetes, you're getting to cloud native and you're doing it. >>Well, the folks watching, if you don't know the cloud native landscape slide, that ecosystem slide, it's getting bigger and bigger. There's more new things emerging. You see role of software abstractions coming in, automation and AI are coming in. So it makes it very challenging if you want to jump right in lifting and shifting to the clouds, really easy check, been there, done that, but companies want to refactor their applications, not just replatform refactoring means completely taking advantage of these higher level services. So, so it's going to be hard to navigate. So I guess with all that being said, what you guys advice to people who are saying, I need the navigation. I need to have the blueprint. What do I do? How do I get involved? And how do I leverage this? >>We want people to, you can go on to get hub and check out our group and read the maturity model. You can understand it, self identify where you're at, but we want people to get involved as well. So if they're seeing something that like, actually this needs to be adjusted slightly, please join the group. The cardiograph is group. Um, you can also get copies of our book available on the show. So if you, um, if you know, you can read it and it takes you line by line in a really playful way as to where you should be at in the maturity model. >>And on top of that, if you come Thursday was Sonia book. And of course, a lot of money, one day, I promise >>You guys are good. I gotta ask, you know, the final question is like more and more, just more personal commentary. If you don't mind, as teams start to change, this is obviously causing a lot of positive transformation if done, right? So the roles and the teams are starting to change. Hearing SRS are now not just the dev ops guys provisioning they're part of the, of the scale piece, the developers shifting left, new kind of workflows, the role of certain engineers and developers now, new team formations. Why were you guys seeing that evolve? Is there any trends that you see around how people are reconfiguring their team makeup? >>I think a lot of things is going to a single panic last tonight, where I'm taking dev and ops and putting them one panel where I can see everything going on in my environment, which is very critical. So right now we're seeing a pre-training where every client wants to be able to have the holy grail of a secret credit class to drive to that. But for you to get there, there's a lot of work you've got to do overnight that will not happen. And that's where this maturity model, I think again, will enhance that ability to do that. >>There's a cultural shift happening. I mean, people are changing there's new skillsets and you know, obviously there's a lot of people who don't have the skill. So it's super important that people work with Kubernetes, get certified, use the maturity model to help them know what skills they need. >>And it's a living document too. It's not, I mean, a book and I was living book. It's going to evolve. Uh, what areas you think are going to come next? So you guys have to predict if you had to see kind of where the pieces are going. Uh, obviously with cloud, everything's getting, you know, more Lego blocks to play with more coolness you have in the, in this world. What's coming next with Sue. Do you guys see any, any, uh, forecasts or >>We're working with each one of the tag groups within the CNCF to help us build it out and come up with what is next based on their expertise in the area. So we'll see lots more coming. Um, and we hope that the maturity grows and because of something that everybody relies on and that they can use alongside the landscape and the trail map. And, um, >>It's super valuable. I think you guys need a plug for any people want to, how they join. If I want to get involved, how do I, what do I do? >>Um, you can join the Carter Garfish group. You can check us out on, get hub and see all the information there. Um, we have a slack channel within the CNCF and we have calls every other Tuesday that people can see the pools. >>Awesome. Congratulations, we'll need it. And super important as people want to navigate and start building out, you know, you've got to edge right around the corner there it's happening real fast. Data's at the edge. You got cloud at the edge. Azure, AWS, Google. I mean, they're pushing really hardcore 5g, lot changes. >>Everybody wants to cloud today. Now one client is, one is more cloud. At least both the cloud is comfortable playing everywhere. One pump wife had DevOps. >>It's distributed computing back in the modern era. Thank you so much for coming on the keep appreciating. Okay. I'm Jennifer here for cube con cloud native con 2021 in person. It's a hybrid event. We're here live on the floor show floor, bringing you all the coverage. Thanks for watching station all day. Next three days here in Los Angeles. Thanks for watching. >>Thank you.

>> live from the Mandalay Bay Convention Center in Las Vegas. It's the cues covering via World 2016 brought to you by IBM Wear and its ecosystem sponsors. Now here you're Hope's Stool Minimum and John Walls. And welcome back to Las Vegas. Here on the cubicle, tear our coverage. Of'em world here. Mandalay Bay along with minimum. I'm John Woes. Thanks for joining us here for our coverage throughout the next three days. All that's happened in Vienna World. Almost 25,000 attendees to pretty good crowd. Well, I hadn't heard the number, so that would be the largest bm world ever. If we believe the numbers, so no reason not to With John Gill Martin, Who is the vice president? General manager of the integrated assistant business at VM. Where, John. Thanks for being with us once again. It's always a pleasure. Thanks for having me. You know, like you bet I am at this point. Yeah. Tell us about the vibe of the show. First off, day one things underway. A lot of excitement, I would think. Yeah, it's fantastic. You know, I think this is my 11 PM world in a row s so I've got to see a huge evolution in this program is amazing to see how much has changed over the years. Going back, you know, it used to be a server virtualization. What is this thing and where we are today? It's so different. There's a lot of excitement. People trying to figure out how to manage and deal with all the change happen in the industry right now. So, John, one of the things we're all coming into this week looking at is kind of the the cloud management suite, which is right in your area. Can you help us unpack? We looked at kind of V cloud sweet, and then there was some STD see stuff, and now it's cloud foundations. How did these things relate? Is it rebranding, Renaming, repackaging? Help us understand, Actually. So with that foundation, that's one of the key announcements we made today. The objective. There is what I think. How do we take what we have been talking about? Whats offered by Data Center and just make it easy? I don't make it easy for our customers to deploy easy for them to architect easy that even offer as a service from public cloud. That's kind of a key concept. So we are taking and integrating together the key components of softer, defined compute storage and network. There are wrapping some new capabilities to automate deployment autumn E provisioning. And so some ways is an extension, but also in evolution of what we've been doing previously. Okay, but this is still a software offering. Correct is what >> one of the components inside of that >> s O. There's four key components inside of my foundation. There's peace here, virtual sand NSX that gives you that software defined across all three domains and >> then a new component >> that we call STD. See, Manager. So what the SEC Manager does is sort of the glue that brings it all together to bring that integrated experience. It takes all the work that our customers do around you. How do I think about design? How does architect how to deploy? How'd I manage patches and upgrades over time and just automates all that inside of software so they can go from air medal systems deployed cloud infrastructure very, very quickly. So So what was the gap? You know what? What do you dress in here in terms of improvement in terms of change. You're talking about doing something a little bit differently for customers. Use a visa. What have you, But we're trying to get done it. So the key thing, just like the two key new things in this that are really different one is that just making it really easy on the private cloud side. But then we also take exactly that same sort of technologies and also work with our partners to offer it as a service. That's also the really new thing that we're doing today. So we had an announcement today with IBM as part of their IBM cloud. They're offering Cloud Foundation as a service, which >> means customers and go to a >> portal and provisioned out capacity based upon 100% consistent infrastructure. >> That means, you know, if I need some more capacity, as you have it inside my data center provisioned it out inside IBM Cloud. And now I have seen management tools, the same operations, everything I do in my data center. I can now do inside of this cloud environment. We'll extend that after other partners in the future. We'll send that out into the crowd air next quarter. This is really a great way for customers to start extending our migrating into the cloud. But do it based upon without having the architect. The applications are fundamentally change how they operate. >> Eso We've been arguing. We've been trying to figure out this hybrid cloud thing to the last few years, and there's many companies that are saying Okay, here's the software sack. You can put it in your own data center, or you can put it in some kind of public cloud environment. We see IBM does that sum. We see Oracle do that. Microsoft, of course, has azure and azure stacks coming some diamond next year. Is this The em wears answer to say OK in the data center where you know and love these fear, this is a full set, and then you can put it in IBM Soft Layer or a bunch of other writers. >> Yes, it is that concept of a consistent stack, yet a seem stacked inside the day's center, exactly the same stack outside the data center. So it is 100% consistent, right? That's part of what's really attractive about that. And then his customers think about well, what are the management tools or the cloud management platform, but I won't run on top of that. That can extend very seamlessly now across multiple environments. >> Okay, what about the interconnection between different locations? How does that >> work? So interconnections. You can take advantage of NSX and what it does around stretching, stretching, networking across environments like it's a very powerful capability to really think about it, really, as it's seamless extension of the data center. That's one of the unique capabilities and obviously with IBM has a first partner. They have almost having 50 data centers around the world, so it becomes very easy to collate. Locate your applications close to your private data center, which >> is important. So IBM is the first partner. How does this fit into, like the V Cloud their network, then, where you have thousands of >> partners already? Yeah, so they're the first Qatar network partner to offer a service, and then we expect that are working with other because our network partners to do the same offer Cloud Foundation as a service and, you know, kind of underlying that technology is this s CDC manager, which makes it easy for them as well. They go provision out these infrastructures very quickly and easily. >> Yeah, when you're about customers, what are the pain points that you were hearing from them that you were dressing? Because we take about the sophistication of technology, these of use efficiencies, high performance, all this stuff. It couldn't be any better, but obviously could have been better. So what we're hearing from them that led you to develop the new product. >> Well, the big thing is his customers were trying to think about how to the leverage public cloud is part of their architectures. You can kind of, It's pretty clear, that kind of result they want. They want to able to have an environment where their application owners and the developers sort of don't even know where things are running. They wanted to be a little bit transparent, kind of seamless. At the same time, they want to be able to have the ability to maintain control, maintain security policies, maintain operational control over the environment, have good insight into it. And so I sort of challenge that we're walking into, and your traditional infrastructure still very much stands in the way people trying to support the developers, people enterprise has spent too much time hugging components together trying to make things work together. And that's just not value added activity. It's not differentiating. It doesn't help them compete in the marketplace. And so we saw is what happened. We help them get out of that business and focus more on the things they want to do above the infrastructure layer. That's sort of the whole rationale for building a foundation was, Just take everything that they do today That's on value, out of activity. Put that in software, automated public empire the cloud and they can focus on what there is value out of business on. >> One of the challenges we've been facing in this transformation is kind of the go to market. If I think about traditionally the sphere, you know Veum. He's got a great channel partnership Lotto, EMS in the early days, and now, I mean just a huge amount of channel parts that know how to sell it, know how to make money. Cloud is a big shift for them. There's only a small percent of the channel that kind of understands this with IBM, kind of as a first partner. How do you see this playing out with kind of official panic Channel partners, service providers and the whole go to market. >> As you point out, it's clearly an evolving story. Right and different partners were kind of thinking about it in different ways. You know, there's still, you know, definitely in on premise opportunity that they're going after. But clearly having a good crowd strategy is going to be important for every reseller out there in every partner. And some of that is gonna be thinking about what are the kind of service is that you can offer your customers to help them make that transition. Yeah, if you think about you know, if I want to extend my data center, I need to migrate workloads or re architect workloads. Those types of service is I think they're going to be critical to become experts in and help customers. We think about their long term strategy. The fact is, the customers are gonna move warm or the workloads into clouds of some type over the next few years, and they're gonna need help in your advice and guidance and migration surfaces to get there. So there's a real business to go be built around those kinds of opportunities. >> Okay. Can you give us a little bit of what should we be looking for? Going forward, You know, if their customers that are running this stack already before it was called this And how do we How could we benchmark to say whether or not you're successful by the time we come back next year? >> Yeah, that's a good question. >> Tough questions, >> A challenge. So now it's a great question. So this software is gonna be available later this week, so it's actually generally available on September 1st. So it's just coming in the marketplace now. And so we've been working with Summerlee Beta customers on this over the last couple a couple of months, get great feedback and really help this steer perfectly towards this public cloud opportunity S O. I would expect as we come back in a few months, we'd be able to talk about our kind of initial lighthouse customers and how they're doing. But we see just huge interest in this right now, right? Customers want to move, and companies want to move away from kind of plugging things together. They want away from individuals, components. They really are looking to buy Seymour integrated ways. This is kind of a key enabling technology to help him do that. And we could do that also with our partners. >> Yeah, Um, one of the big challenges we've had is everybody is always like, okay, but my needs are a little bit different. So we understand that if we can eliminate diversity of the environments in the homogeneity is good, I can repeat it. I understand it. But everybody, all that you know, that's the problem with ideas. They always want to tweak it. So what do you do when they say, Oh, you know, the sand's great. But, you know, you've got all these ecosystem part partners in storage. I kind of want this storage. And it's ex. I understand some pieces. Maybe I want over. Yes, but I wanted till some other pieces. What do you do for customers that want to kind of go outside of this initial package? What kind of choice and options that they have? >> Yeah. Yeah, it's, uh so just like this year, you know, these here is sort of been the universal platform for running virtual machines and has a lot of those connections into different things, so foundation fundamentally is based on the sphere. So for the take storage, for example, no keys here can connect to external storage. We can connect national storage and on a road map for the automation software inside. We'll look at how we can take advantage of external storage and some of these things as well, so as new as we talk to customers. And we, as we learned those areas that are consistent across many, we can start to bring some of those things in tow the equation as well. This gives us a very powerful starting point, and we can look at what are the right connections out system? >> And do you still have folks who are trying to hang on to say I understand what you're doing understands the new service of a new opportunity here, But I'm not ready to cut the Courtauld away. And how do you bring them along to showing them? There are new efficiencies here and there is a better bottom line benefit to you. >> I think you know the history of I t is a history of things remaining right. So you still have a I actually feel mainframes. Eso this transition will take time. This is not gonna be on overnight time type of changes. We moved to these types of architectures that are fully suffered a find, but we made a huge amount of progress thus far. We have over 5000 customers on virtual sand. Your NSX is going incredibly fast. Both of these approved points that these are the architecture's customers are trying to move to the end of the same time. Though we have to find the right the right starting points. What is the right project to start with? This doesn't have to be a wholesale change. The data center it could be. Let's take a virtual desktop project and run now on top of that foundation must take a new invite. New server applications, unemployed run that on foundation. And just like the sphere kind of started with these use cases that expanded over time. Same thing of foundation. We could start with a project and then and that shows success to move into other projects. >> John, you've been with the, um where for quite a few years you've done two stints of the company as you hear the outside world talking about, you know, cloud and where things were going. What do you think people don't understand about bm Worse position in the cloud marketplace going forward. >> You know the one thing you know, I've talked a lot right now about Cloud Foundation, which was one of our announcements. I think the other thing that is really unique that we talked about this week is, uh, something called across Cloud Architecture and said across Cloud service Is that in addition foundation and what we're recognizing is just like with server virtualization, we were able to abstract multiple types of servers and provide consistent layer we're going to do the same. Thing is we were across multiple clouds. Even non GM were based clouds, right, working with Amazon Azure Google. And I think that's one thing that is maybe even surprising, folks. And it's very different than kind of the company strategy going back 10 years ago. So we are fully embracing that these will be part of our customer strategy in the future. We do expect to see them, but we see a unique opportunity for us to go help them when it comes to managing applications across the networking security where we have really unique assets we can help with. And also data management. Government. >> Well, John, I know you said it takes time. Transition state time. >> Still gave you a year. >> Yeah. So next year at the world will come back and the update you on the progress that we've made, >> we look forward to it. Thank you for joining us and the best left down the road. We'll see a year from now. >> Fantastic. Thank you very much. >> You bet John Gill Martin from VM where we'll be back with more from Veum World here in Vegas. Right after this, You're watching the Cube.