>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE. Covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, The Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage of CloudNativeCon and Kubecon for Kubernetes conference. This is the second year, it's really getting large, community's awesome. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE. I'm here with Stu Miniman, Wikibon analyst with SiliconANGLE. Our next guest is Chen Goldberg, engineering director at Google; on stage today, Keynote. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, thank you very much for inviting me. >> We'd love to have Google on... Google is the guard in cloud, you guys are doing a lot of amazing technology, it's fun to watch. It's also fun to watch how Google's handled the Kubernetes evolution. I know it was a hard decision internally from the conversation we had with Craig, back in the day, and Brendan. But really, what a good decision that was, to bring it out into the open, CNCF gets ahold of it, really created a community here, so congratulations. >> Thank you. I think there is more to that than just bringing it to the open and creating a community, it's also about the culture and values. I've started in my Keynote talking about empowerment. But this is really one of the core values of the engineering culture in Google. That anyone can come up with a great idea. So having that thought into the design of Kubernetes with modularity and extensibility is really key. >> And you guys are no stranger to large-scale technology. We've been talking on theCUBE here and certainly for the past year about the democratization with containers and microservices. Really showing a clear path to value, you start to have this accelerated goodness happening in developer community. You've got software engineering happening at levels of the stack, and then you've got really focused application development happening, infrastructurous code. Kind of for the first time, we're starting to see some real cohesiveness there, on both sides. >> We are getting there. I will not say we are there already, but definitely, that's the goal. >> What are you most excited about with Kubernetes here at the show, what are some of the things that you see that's standing out for you in Kubernetes? >> I would say two things. The first one is, if you have noticed, in all the Keynotes, there was a very consistent message coming from all the speakers, regardless of what company they're on. So in my mind, it just shows that the leadership of the Kubernetes community is aligned. We have the same vision in mind. We all know it's just the beginning. We all know that there's more work to do. We all talk about the core: extensibility, and I'm happy to see that. And we all talk about the same values, by the way. Which is also very important. Because I've been an engineering major for many years, and in my mind, the key of building a strong team is with the alignment of the leadership. Once you have that, you can do whatever you want. >> Google has a long history of just building amazing technology. One of the knocks is sometimes the industry is like "Well Google builds really amazing stuff "that only Google people can understand how to use." We've talked to the founder of Kubernetes, and they said "Well, we wanted to help bring some "of that operating model to the world." It sure feels like, at this show, it feels a little bit more Google-y. If I can use the term. What have you been seeing out there? What do you hear when you talk with the community, with customers? >> I think that one thing that helped my team work well with Kubernetes' community is being Google-y, and being humble, and listening, and being pragmatic. You know, there was asked today, at Zig Architecture, a team said that he had to defend of why we are only supporting 100 nodes in the first release of Kubernetes. And they explained that they know how to build for scale, they know how to do it, but realistically, most of users don't need large clusters. So why create this complexity, for example. >> Scale is one of those things that we all bat around as to what scale really means. There's only a handful of customers that have Google type of scale, so what does it mean when you're building these type of technologies? What does scale mean to the community and the customers? Scale. >> From the perspective of the community, what it means? >> Like when Kubernetes, all these projects, you said limit to 100 nodes, I've heard there were some people that... >> So now it's 5000 nodes. >> Okay, 5000. But there have been some alternatives to Kubernetes that said Kubernetes didn't scale big enough, and I've yet to find customers that say that. >> I think, again going to be pragmatic, is what do you do first, and how do you show value when building a product? So when we started, the 100 nodes was sufficient. Today, we support 5000 nodes. Do you want to grow than that, think there are better ways to scale than just improve with nodes? For example, we are supporting, again, part of the vision of Kubernetes is the multi-workloads. Can you take the same cluster and run different type of workloads and then utilize the resources in a more efficient way? Because there's also, of course, the toll of managing different nodes. Scale is on many aspects, you usually think about how you scale your team. This will mean, again, that I think Google is bringing a lot to the community. We have, for example, our SRE team did a talk here in Kubecon on how we are managing our clusters. And how we bring our own experience, and much of the automation of a Kubernetes cluster is built on top of our experience. Saying that, this is also where we differentiate. Our goal is to bring everything we know from Google into the Kubernetes community. The tooling, developer experience, this is what we bring as add on to the Kubernetes. Operational excellence, we do that for you. >> You've done that. You've had great container mindset from day one. Not so much VMs either so you had that microservices vision. When you guys look at building the cloud for customers, we are seeing that customers aren't yet there yet, some are, they seek, they want microservices, but they're still in their old VM worlds of dealing with virtual machines and some bare metal. How is Kubernetes an opportunity for customers? Because they're looking at this announcement, saying "I like Cloud-Native, I like Kubernetes. "This is good for me. "I got to get more developers, I have to port my applications." They're going to need some cloud to go with that. Your thoughts. >> I have many thoughts on that. Definitely we cannot cover that in the time we have. I do believe in containerization and Kubernetes. I do expect that the majority of the workloads, at least in clouds, will be containerized. Saying that, I'm confident that not all of them will be containerized. Which is important to acknowledge. Definitely in building such a platform. I think the first value that Kubernetes brings to those customers is that they can have it on-prem. And it's easy to manage, and with the new set of technologies, like Estio, for example, and our effort to, and a service vocal to be across broader than just Kubernetes, we are allowing them to have a hybrid setting, even within their own prem. So I can manage with Kubernetes, but also have some other workloads. And you can see that much of the obstruction that we are trying to build in the co-ed community. We are trying to make sure that they will be relevant outside of the Kubernetes scope, because we acknowledge that. >> Could you expand on, you were talking about Kubernetes can be both on-premises and the public cloud, obviously Google Cloud has to be a major focus for what you're doing. How do you look at that experience between the data center and the public cloud? I know it's a pretty broad question, but. >> So some things are similar. For example, from tuning perspective and experience, I think that we can, we, and also customers on-prem can achieve a consistent experience whatever they run. Like for example, we have some little customers that are running Kubernetes on the warehouse and in the data centers, and they are happy with that. You can probably not get to zero to one, and you can not just start a new node, so your auto-scaling is different from management prospective. Upgrade, of course other aspects, but the way we are working with some obstructions, we are allowing the vendors in particular to make sure that there is a good foundation to run Kubernetes on-prem. >> And I want to get your thoughts on the questions. So pretend that I bring you into a talk, and in the audience is all these IT, architects, and CIOs, and CDOs, and CSOs, and I raise my hand, I say "And why should I go, I like the vision, "but what does it mean to me? "I have all this stuff." >> Consistency. >> What talk do you give to those folks and saying "Here's what Kubernetes is, here's what "the impact is for you, and here's some of the outcomes you might see if you go down that path." >> I talk about consistency and freedom of choice. I've been working for a long time with IT teams, and also including myself building software. And where we spend most of our money and time... It's not about even building more hollow, it's about educating teams and mobility of engineers. And then there is a new technology or something that takes all of effort to bake into whatever we already have existing, and I think that's the promise for enterprises. Imagine that everything run on Kubernetes. And it's the same Kubernetes everywhere. So how upgrade or application running on Kubernetes will look like. I know how hard it is to do upgrades today. I was in IT department, leading IT department, and that's all that we did. Our annual planning was how we upgrade the middleware and the infrastructure. Q1 we are doing that, Q2, we are doing that. And why? Because it's all very different. And we are trying to get to a place where it's not. I know it's a vision, I know it's a dream. >> ServiceMesh points to this. This is what ServiceMesh can bring. This notion of having this architecture where you can have multiple codebases. >> But it's relying on Kubernetes. It has to have that consistent infrastructure. So that would be one, it would be the consistency between environments. And really the freedom of choice I think is very important, from what I hear from customers. They want to move to cloud in their own pace. They want to move to maybe more than one cloud. So that gives them that ability without being locked-in. >> So we get one piece of the stack that's consistent with Kubernetes, but one of the things we've heard is some people say "It's too complicated", but that's also the opportunity, because every customer can kind of build what they need, you know, build Kubernetes the hard way, and have the adjustments so it's not one solution, a simple kind of homogenous stack, there's a lot of layers there. >> So before you asked me what are the two things that I was most happy seeing here at the con. So the first one was the alignment of the leadership. The other one was the amount of innovation. Like if you look around us, the amount of companies that innovate on top of Kubernetes, I'm super happy about it, like that's a dream come true. >> Two years only, three years maybe. The gestation period's very short. >> Yes. So first of all, Kubernetes is not hard today. Splitting off a cluster is not hard. We did it, we already help fixing that. But there are still harder problems. Talking about developer experience, signing into other environments. We have more things to solve, but it's not just on us. We are building this ecosystem around us that can help you do that. >> One of the things I'm most impressed with this event is, first of all, it's super exciting, great community of smart people really contributing. We had Lifton earlier, I mean just amazing end user, building out scale, donating it, participating. Kind of a new generation of open source is coming. Real, hardcore practitioners who had to build some hard stuff at scale. And you guys, obviously Google's been doing it for many, many years. But now, contributing these gifts. The gifts of open source are, it's amazing. How does someone make, so that means that it's a dream for developers. How do developers make sense of it? If you were a young developer again, just getting into the business, what would you do? How would you attack this? How would you get creative? What would you sink your teeth into? >> So I think two things. So first of all, I think it will change a bit, the industry and the way we innovate. Because I am a believer that the open source pace is faster. That's one thing that we already see, that we have to keep up with everything that is going up in the community. Another thing that I think sometimes we as infrastructure engineers, we forget, this would be boring. There are bigger problems to solve. There are other ways to make the world better. And I would love, as a software engineer, to try and solve those problems. How can we make other processes to have more machine learning? You see my eyes, you see how excited, there's so many more interesting things to solve than this. >> And that's what you guys are enabling. With Kubernetes, that creates an abstraction layer. So I guess the theme going forward is more abstractions and more primitives. Declarative primitives, right? >> Yes. >> We're getting excited here on theCUBE. Chen, you are an inspiration, thanks for coming on theCUBE, I really appreciate it. Keynote was fantastic. >> Thank you very much. >> You had a great shirt on with all the names of all the pioneers and women intact. Certainly awesome to see the great engineering work you guys are doing, congratulations. And of course, we're doing our part, just trying to share that data here, open sourcing the content here on theCUBE at Kubecon and CloudNativeCon. This is theCUBE, I'm John and with Stu. We'll be right back with more live coverage. From Austin, Texas, after this short break. >> Woman: Awesome. (electronic music)