absolutely build on some of Ben's comments because I think what he articulated is one of the killer use cases of VMware cloud on a to us that I think is driving that momentum right which is we think it's one of the best solutions in the marketplace and customers have told us this to enable them to migrate and modernize right so let's talk about the migrate piece first right you have customers that have these tremendous enterprise class applications running on vSphere and their data centers they're built on top of that platform they depend upon it for performance availability everything else with VMware Club a native us we can migrate those applications with zero downtime no refactoring no additional cost in a matter of weeks or months as opposed to if you had to refactor everything to take years and millions of dollars right so that cloud migration use case I would say is that is the killer for us and that's you know exactly what Ben was we're definitely seeing that and I think that's the thing that really got me excited about a year ago was watching enterprises make that transition and say you know what the center of gravity has gone from architectures inside the on-prem data center is now moved to in the cloud I mean that shift has happened it happened to people talked about it five years ago but they didn't mean it and now when you talk to enterprises they are actually moving into the cloud not just talking about it and they're saying where that is the center of gravity and what's interesting to me was I think even just the tone of Andy Jesse today and what he was talking about was it's once you define what your architecture is you push it everywhere so cloud 1.0 and 2.0 was really more about taking my architecture that was on prem and pushing it into the cloud so let me take virtual appliance a virtual router basically my hardware router packaged it up put it on the cloud that's not cloud native it's cloud naive as we talk right and so what's the chase has happened is now everybody realizes the center of gravity is in the cloud and you start seeing things like outposts you see things like wavelength you see things like you know tgw network manager things getting pushed out the architecture of the cloud now actually pushing out and extending out into on-premises I've been at it for a couple of decades so in the beginning there was a lot of evangelism that this is safe it's consumable by the enterprise it's not some kind of crazy idea to bring open-source you're not going to lose your intellectual property or things like that those days I mean I I'm sure you can find an exception but those days are largely over in this in the sense that open-source has gone mainstream so I would say open-source is one most large enterprises have an open-source strategy they consider open source as critical to not only how they source software from vendors but also how they build their own applications so the world has really really evolved and now it's really a question of where are you partnering with vendors to build infrastructure that's critical to your business but not your differentiator and where are you leveraging open-source internally for your to differentiate your business I think that's a more sophisticated view it's not the safety question it's not is it is it legally you know that you're bringing legal concerns into the picture it's really a much different conversation and people in the enterprise are looking how can we contribute to these projects so that's really it's pretty exciting actually both are a great place for startups right they're not meters cluesive so I think if you go horizontal the amount of data being created by your applications your infrastructure your sensors time series data ridiculously large amount right and that's not going away anytime soon I recent did investment ain't chronosphere did you guys covered over at coupon a few weeks ago that's talking about metrics and absorbedly data time series data so they're gonna handle that horizontal amount of data petabytes and petabytes how can it query this quickly deeply with a lot of insight that's one play right cheaper better faster at scale the next play like you said is vertical it's how do I own data or slice the data the more contacts they know as can have we talked about like the virtual cycle of data right this the system of the tile well bye own set of da to be healthcare government or self-driving car data that no one else has I can build a solution and to end and go deep and so either pick a lane or pick a geography you can go either way it's hard to do both though it's hard for start-up any big company it's very few companies can do two things well starves especially succeed by doing one thing very well I'm impressed they got two CEOs the CEO of goldman sachs david solomon the CEO of Cerner coming to the show that's kind of rare that the CEO of your customer comes to the show I guess the second thing I'd say is you know Amazon is not a rinse and repeat company at these shows although they are when it comes to shock and awe so they ticked the Box on shock and awe but you're right John they're talking a lot about transformation I would sort of think of it as a disruption here's what I would say to that Amazon has a dual disruption agenda one is its disrupting the horizontal technology stack and two it's disrupting industries it wants to be the platform of which startups in particular but also incumbents can disrupt industries and it's in their DNA because it's in Amazon's DNA and I think it's the last thing I'll say as Amazon is the retai Amazon retail is the you can buy anything here store and now to your point Justin Amazon Web Services is you can get AWS anywhere at the edge and a little mini data centers that they're built on outpost and of course in the cloud absolutely you know I'd say primarily were most kind of pleased with the variety of workloads and these cases the customers are bringing us into you know I think when we started out on this journey we saw a tremendous promise for the technology to really improve the aw psycho system and customer experience for people that wanted to consume block storage in the cloud what we learned as we started working with customers is that because of the way we've architected the product brought a lot of the same capabilities we deliver on our flash arrays today into AWS it's a lot of customers to take us into all the same types of workloads that they put flush arrays into right so that's their Tier one you know mission-critical environments there VMware workloads their Oracle workloads or safety workloads they're also looking at us from everything from you know to do lifts and shifts test and dev in the cloud as well as dr right and and that again i think you know speaks to a couple things it speaks to the durability the higher level of service that were able to deliver in AWS but also the compatibility with which we're able to deliver the same sets of features and you know have it operate in exactly the same way on prime in the cloud because it's look if you're gonna dr the last time you know the last point in time you want to discover that there's a caveat hey this feature doesn't quite work the way you expect is when you have a dr failover and so the fact that we set out with this mission in mind to create that exact level of sameness you know it's really paying dividends in the types of use cases the customers are bringing us into I think we're delighted you know Mike obviously and I've been friends for years he's had some connections with VMware in his past that that that certainly helped in setting up this partnership so we're grateful to Mike and Andy and the team for that and it's you know two and a half to three years now since we announced it tremendous amount of customer interest listen you know we said at the beginning of this when you take sort of the king of the public cloud and the king the private cloud together and don't force customers to say these have to be separate doors you can do them both together customers like that message and what we've been really doing over the course the last 12 18 months is perfecting use cases for this platform I think to us the key word is migrations cloud migrations when people are moving their workloads of an app off vmware vsphere or our cloud foundation we want this to be the best place for it to land we are more cloud and AWS for migration opportunity and anything short of that refactoring app would be you know not something that would be a good use of people's time and money because they should be then modernizing with all the wonderful services that Amazon's built once they've migrated so we've really perfected our message in the course the last six 12 months to two ms migrated and modernized migrated modernized so we could migrate you into this avenue and then modernized with a set of container and other services so that mess is working we put on stage at VMware and there are many of them here too big Amazon customers VMware cloud and Amazon Freddie Mac and IHS market and they were telling are tens of thousands customers at those shows and similarly many of them here that that's the best option to be able to do things yeah so if you know public sector public sector actually has a lot of Windows or Microsoft workloads in it and so we're seeing a lot of public sector customers looking to modernize their Windows workloads in fact we made several announcements just yesterday around helping more public sector customers modernize for example one is Windows Server 2003 and 2008 will go out of support and so we have a great new offering with technology that can help them to not refactor but actually abstract those layers and move quickly to 2016 and 2019 because both of those will go out of support in January and Dave mentioned you know cloud first strategies but we're also seeing a lot of movement around data you know data is really powerful Andy mentioned this as well yesterday but for example in our partner keynote where I just came from we had on stage Avis yeah hey this not public sector customer but what they're doing is the the gentleman said you know your car can now talk to you and that data is now being given to local state officials local city officials they can use it for emergency response systems so that public and private use of data coming together is also a big trend that we're seeing it's all about breaking down I mean if devops is all about breaking down silos between Devon operations and in other parts of the business Deb sack ops or secure dev ops or whatever we want to call it is just bringing more people into the fold and helping security join that party and get at things earlier in the cycle so we can catch it before it you know before before there's a breach that's in the news so you know I think there's going to continue to be convergence between Amazon business in AWS over time and in the marketplace we offer kind of a goods marketplace they offer a software marketplace and a services marketplace and so I think we're still working on how do we harmonize that experience better and we've got a lot of work to do there we have a saying at Amazon that it's always day one and that's a great example where we still have a lot of work to do but one of the things that is another one of our partners Koopa which is a procure-to-pay a platform and a longtime Amazon business partner we've done some pretty creative things to improve the user experience and make it easier for customers use both Koopa and Amazon business and in concert together Koopa announced a couple months ago they've built an integration to the AWS marketplace and so that's a pretty exciting opportunity where people who are provisioning services via AWS be a Dobis marketplace can have that that transaction flows seamlessly into their prepare to pay solution and let you know the user who's provisioning that focus on what they want to do which is developing new solutions to serve customers I mean the spectrum is massive so the our biggest challenge is keeping up with everything and continuing to innovate with all the things that are happening but again the benefits of the platform that we have enables us to do that and the enhancements we weight made this year this year now that our platform is is more open we can connect a collect data from multiple entities not just the New Relic agents that we've that we were built on so the concept of observability and being able to observe the entire application environment it is built on the fact that data's got to come from all these different places then we need to turn that around and curate it into the right experience in the right use case that the customer is looking for so all I can say is that our company's built on innovation we try and stay on the cutting edge of all that trying to stay current with that and meet the customers needs as as everyone here is innovating like crazy at scale well I mean there's a lot of a lot of the technology we build comes from things that we're doing ourselves you know and that we're learning ourselves it's kind of how we started thinking about microservices serverless - we saw the need we know we would have we would build all these functions that when some kind of object came into an object store we would spin up compute all those tasks would take like three or four hundred milliseconds then we spin it back down and yet we'd have to keep a cluster up in multiple availability zones because we needed that fault tolerance and it was we just said this is wasteful and that's part of how we came up with lambda and you know when we were thinking about land that people understandably said well if we build lambda and we build this serverless event-driven computing a lot of people were keeping clusters of instances aren't going to use them anymore it's going to lead to less absolute revenue for us but we we have learned this lesson over the last 20 years at Amazon which is if it's something it's good for customers you're much better off cannibalizing yourself and doing the right thing for customers and being part of shaping something and I think if you look at the history of technology you always build things and people say well that's going to cannibalize this and people are gonna spend less money what really ends up happening is they spend spend less money per unit of compute but it allows them to do so much more that they ultimately long-term end up being you know more significant customer look I mean the the SHA this show estate Volante says amazon always delivers with the shock and awe you know broadest and deepest so many pieces here you know I took a selfie with many people and the biggest celebrity of the show AWS outpost the rack it's over in the corner there and people asking me about all the gear inside I said you should stop asking about that because you will never touch it only AWS will so put a curtain around it it's managed as a service and that's what I think people are still trying to understand we've been talking about cloud for what 15 years now but Amazon's positioning on cloud is still different than everyone else's when I think back to some of the waves there's that buzzword and there's one or two that really architectural er different in deliver and Amazon laid out their strategy even more and through the geeky pieces and transformation was the theme you [Music]

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCube. Covering AWS re:Invent 2019 brought to you by Amazon Web Services and Intel, along with it's ecosystem partners. >> Hello there and welcome back to theCube's live coverage here in Las Vegas for AWS re:Invent 2019. This is theCube's seventh year covering re:Invent. They've been doing this show for eight years, we missed the first year, I'm John Furr, and my co-host David Vellante. We're here extracting the signal from the noise, and we're here with an amazing guest, our friend, she's been here with us from the beginning of theCube, since inception. Always great to get to comment with her. Sandy Carter Vice President with Amazon Web Services. >> Thank you. >> Now in the public sector handling partners. Great to see you, thanks for coming on again and sharing your content. >> So great to see you guys, so dressed up and looking good guys, I have to say. (laughs) >> You're looking good to, but I can't help but stare at our other guest here, the IoT suitcase. >> First, tell us-- >> Yes. >> About the IoT suitcase. >> Well we, in public sector we have a partner program, and that program helps entrepreneurs. And we're really keen on especially helping female entrepreneurs. So one of our entrepreneurs created this suitcase, that's an IoT based suitcase, you can put your logo's and that sort of thing on it, but more importantly for public sectors, she created this safety ring, John. And so, if I touch it I've de-activated it, but if I touch it, it will call the police for me, if I'm being assaulted. Or if I'm having an emergency, I can touch it and have an ambulance come for me as well. And the really cool thing about it is she worked backwards from the customer, figuring out like how are most people assaulted, and if you have an emergency and you fall, what's the best way to get ahold of someone. It's not your phone, because you don't always carry it, it's for a device like this. >> Or a bigger device that you can't, or you leave on the table somewhere, but that's you know it's attractive. >> It's awesome. >> And it's boom, simple. >> And it's pink. (laughs) >> What I love fast about re:Invent as an event is that there's so much innovation going on, but one of the areas that's become modernized very rapidly is the public sector. Your now in this area, there's a lot of partners, a huge ecosystem going, and the modernization effort is real. >> It is. >> Could you share some commentary on what's going on. Give people a feel for the pace of change, what's accelerating? What are people doubling down on, what are some of the dynamics in public sector? >> Yeah, so if you know public sector, public sector actually has a lot of Windows or Microsoft workloads in it. And so we're seeing a lot of public sector customers looking to modernize their Windows workloads, in fact we made several announcements just yesterday around helping more public sector customers modernize. For example, one is Windows Servers 2003, and 2008 will go out of support, and so we have a great new offering, with technology, that can help them to not re-factor, but actually abstract those layers and move quickly to 2016 and 2019, because both of those will go out of support in January. >> A lot of people don't know, and I've learned this from talking with Andy Jassy in the keynote, as well as hearing from some other folks, is that you got, Amazon runs a lot of Windows. >> Oh, we have 57% Windows workloads on AWS in terms of market segment share. Which is 2x the next nearest cloud provider, 2x. And most customers choose to run their Windows workloads on us, because we are so innovative, we move really fast. We're more reliable. The latest public data from 2018 shows that the nearest cloud provider had seven times more downtime. So if your in public sector or even commercial, who can afford to be down that long, and then finally, we have better security. So one of the things we've been focused on for public sector is FedRamp solutions. We know have over 90 solutions that are FedRamp ready. Which is four times more than the next two cloud providers. Four times more than the two combined. >> That's interesting, so I got to ask the question that's popping up in my mind, I'm sure people are curious about. >> Yeah. >> I get the Windows working on Amazon, and that makes a lot of sense, why wouldn't you want to run on the best cloud. The question I would have is, how would the licensing work, because, that's seems to be lock-in spec, Oracle does it, Microsoft does it, does license become the lock-in. So, when something expires, what happens on the licensing side. Licensing is really tricky, and in fact, October 1st, Microsoft made some new licensing changes. And so, we have some announcement to help our customers still bring their own licenses, or what we call fondly, BYOL over to AWS, so they don't have to double invest on the license. >> So you can honor that license on AWS. >> Yeah, and you have to do it on a dedicated host. Which at midnight madness, we announced new dedicated host solution, that's very cloud-like. Makes it as easy to run a dedicated host instance as it is an EC2 instance. So, wicked easy, very cost effective if your moving those on-premises workloads over. >> I just want to point out John, something that's really important here is a lot of times, software companies will use scare tactics, to your point. They'll jack up the cost of the license, to say, ah you got to stay with us, if you run on our hardware or our platform, you pay half. And then they'll put out, "Oh, Amazon's twice as expensive." But these are all negotiable. I've talked to a number of customers, particularly on the Oracle side, and said, no, no, we just went to Oracle and said look, you got a choice, I either give us the same license price or we're migrating off your database. Okay, all right. But some of it is scare tactics, and I think you know increasingly, that's not working in the marketplace. So I just wanted to point that out. >> So what's the strategy for customers to take, I guess that's the question. Because, certainly the licensing becomes again like they get squeezed, I can see that. But what do customers do, is there a playbook? >> Well there is, and so the best one is you buy your license from Microsoft, and then using BYOL, you can bring that over to AWS. It's faster, more performance, more reliable, that sort of thing. If you do get restricted though John, like they are doing for instance with their end of support, you could run that on Azure, and get all the security fixes. We are trying to provide technical solutions, like the ability to abstract Windows Server 2003 and Server 2008 as it goes out of support. >> I mean certainly in the case of Oracle, it used to be you know 10-15 years ago, you didn't have a choice. Instead of one RDBMS, and now it's so much optionality in databases. >> And I will also tell you that we have a lot of customers today, who are migrating from SQL server, or Oracle over to Aurora. Aurora, is equally as performant, and a tenth of the cost. So we actually have this team called the database freedom team that will help you do that migration. In fact I was talking to a very large customer last night, and I was explaining some of the options. And their like, "Let's do the Aurora thing." Let's do it two-step. Let's start by migrating the database over, Oracle and SQL and then I want to go to Aurora. It's like database built for the cloud, it's faster and its cheaper. So why wouldn't you do that? >> Yeah, and I think the key is, to my question about a friction. What's frictionless? How can they get it done quickly without going through the trip-wires of the licensing. >> Certain workloads are tough, right. You know if you're running your business on high transaction volume. But a lot of the analytics stuff, the data warehouse, you know look at Amazon's own experiences. You guys are just ticking it off, moving over from Oracle to Aurora, it's been fun to watch. >> I want to get you guy's perspective Dave, you and Sandy, because I think you guys might have good insight on this, because everyone knows that I'm really passionate about public sector, I've been really enamored with Teresa's business from Day one, but when she won the CIA deal, that really got my attention. As I dug into the Jedi deal, and that all went sideways, it really jumped out at me, that public sector is probably the most transformative market, because they are modernizing at a record pace. I mean this is like a glacier moving market. They don't really have old ways, they got the beltway bandits, they got old procurement, old technology, and like literally in a short period of time, they have to modernize. So they're becoming more enterprise like, can you guys, I mean pros in the enterprise, what's your take? It just seems like a Tsunami of change in the public sector, because the technology is driving it. What do you guys think about this? Am I on or off base? What are some of the trends that are going on? >> I mean I have a perspective, but please. >> No, okay. So I'll start. So I see so much transformation regardless of what industry your looking at. If you're looking at Government for example working with SAP NS2, we just actually took 26 different flavors of SAP ERP for the Navy, and helped them to migrate to the cloud. For the US Navy, which is awesome. Arkis Global, did the same thing for the UK. We actually have Amazon Connect in there, so that's like a cool call center driven by Machine Learning, and the health care system for the UK. Or you can even look at things, like here in the U.S. there's a company that really looks at how you do monitoring for the children to keep them safe. They've partnered up with a National Police Association, and they are bringing that to the cloud. So regardless of education, non-profits, government, and it's around the world, it's not just the US. We are seeing these governments education, start-ups, non-profits, all moving to the cloud, and taking their own legacy systems to Linux, to Aurora, and moving very rapidly. >> And I think Andy hit on it yesterday, it's got to start with top-down leadership. And in the government, if you can get somebody whose a leading thinker, CIO, we're going cloud first. Mandate cloud, you know you saw that years ago, but today, I think it's becoming more mainstream. I think the one big challenge is obviously the disruption in defense and that's why you talked about Jedi, in defense it's very high risk, and it needs disruption, it's like healthcare its like certain parts of financial services are very high risk industries, so they need leadership, and they need the best platform underneath in a long term strategy. >> Well Jedi actually went different. It was actually the right call, but I reported on that. But I think that what gets me is that Cerner on stage yesterday, on Yaney's keynote highlights that it's just not inefficiencies that you can solve, there's multiple win-win-win benefits so in that health care example, lower the costs, better care, better, the providers are in better shape, so in government in public sector, there's really no excuse to take the slack out of the system. >> Yeah. >> Well, there's regulation though. >> Yeah, and Dave mentioned cloud first strategies, we're also seeing a lot of movement around data. You know data is really powerful. Andy mentioned this as well yesterday, but for example in our partner keynote where I just came from. We had on stage Avis. Now, Avis, not public sector customer, but what they're doing is, the gentleman said, was that your car can now talk to you, and that data is now being given to local state officials, local city officials, they can use it for emergency response systems. So that public and private use of data, coming together, is also a big trend that we're seeing. >> I think that's a great example, because Avis I think what he said is a 70 year old company, I think the fleet was 18 billion dollar fleet. >> 600,000 vehicles. >> 600,000 vehicles, 18 billion dollars worth of assets, this is not a born in the cloud start-up, right. That's essentially transformed the entire fleet and made it intelligent. >> Right, and using data to drive a lot of their changes. Like the way they manage fuel for 600,000 cars, and the way they exchange that with local officials is helping them to you know not just be number two, but to start to take over number one. >> But to your point, data is at the core, right. >> Yeah. >> If you are the incumbent and you want to transform, you got to start with the data. >> Sandy, I want to get your reaction to two memes that have been developing on theCube this week. One is, if you take the T out of Cloud Native, and it's Cloud Naive. (Sandy laughs) The other one is, if your born in the cloud, that's great, your winning, but at the price of becoming re-born in the cloud. This is the transformation. Some are, and they're going to not have a long shelf life. So there's a real enterprise and now public sector re-birth, re-borning in the cloud, the new awakening. This is something that is happening. You're an industry veteran, you've seen a lot of waves, what's the re-born, what's this getting back on the cloud, really happening. What is going on? >> It's really interesting, because now I'm in the partner business, and one of our most successful programs is called our partner transformation program. And what that does, is it's a hundred day transformation program to get our partners drinking our own champagne, which is to be on the cloud. And one of the things, we know we first started testing it out, we didn't have a lot of takers, but now, those partners who have gone through that transformation, they're seeing 70% year to year growth, versus other apion partners, even though they're at an advanced layer, they're only seeing 34% growth. So its 2x of revenue growth having transformed to the cloud. So I think, you know back to your question, I think some of this showing the power. Like, why do you go to the cloud, it's not just about cost, it's about agility, it's about innovation, it's about that revenue growth, right. I mean 2x, 70% growth, you can't sneeze at that. That's pretty impactful. >> And you know this really hits, something of passion for me and Dave and our team is the impact on a society. This is a real focus across all generations now, not just millennials, and born in the web, into older folks like us, who have seen before the web. There's real impact, mission driven things. This is a check for good, shaping technology for good. Educate you guys have. This is a big part of what you guys are doing. >> Absolutely, this is one of the reasons why I really wanted to come work in the public sector, because it's fun helping customers make money, and we still do that. But it's really better, when you can help them make money and do great things. So you know, making with the Mayo clinic, for example, and some of these non-profit hospitals, so they can get better data. The GE example that Andy used yesterday, that data is used in public sector. Doing things, like, I know that you guys are part of re-powered tech. You know we brought a 112 unrepresented minorities and women to the conference. And I have to tell you I got goosebumps when one person came up to me and he said, it's the first time he stayed in a hotel, and he's coming here to enhance his coding. You don't realize when I go back to my country, you will have changed my life. And that's just like, don't you get goosebumps from that, versus it's great to change a company, and we want to do that, but it's really great when you can impact people, and that form or fashion. >> And the agility makes that happen faster, its a communal activity, tech for good is here. >> Absolutely, and we just announced today, right before this in the partner's session, that we now have the public safety and disaster response competency for our partners. Because when a customer is dealing with some sort of disaster or emergency they need a disconnected environment for a long periods of time. They need a cloud solution to rally the troops. So we announced that, and we had 17 partners step up immediately to sign up for that. And again, that's all about, giving back, helping in emergency situations, whether it's Ebola in Africa or Hurricane Dorene, right. >> Well, Sandy congratulations, not only have you a senior leader for AWS doing a great job. >> Thank you. >> Just a great passion, and Women in Tech, Underabridged Minorities, you do an amazing job on Tech for Good. >> Thank you. Well it's such an honor to always be on the show. I love what you guys do. I love the memes, I'm going to steal them, okay. >> Can I ask you another question? >> Absolutely. >> Before you wrap. You've had an opportunity to work with developers, you've experienced other clouds. Now you're with AWS and a couple of different roles. Can you describe, what's different about AWS, is it cultural, is it the innovation, I mean what's tangible that you can share with our audience in terms of the difference. >> I think it's a couple of things, the first one the way they we hire. So we hire builders, and you know what it really starts from that hiring. I actually interviewed Vernor the other day, and he and I had a debate about can you transform a company where you have all the same people, or do you need to bring in some new talent as well. So I think it's the way we hire. We search for people that not only meet the leadership criteria, but also are builders, are innovators. And the second one is, you know when Andy says we're customer obsessed, we're partnered obsessed. We really are. We have the mechanisms in place, we have the product management discipline. We have the process to learn from customers. So my first service I launched at AWS, I personally talked to 141 customers and another 100 partners. So think about that, that's almost two hundred almost fifty customers and partners. And at most large companies, as a senior executive you only spend about 20% of your time with customers, I spent about 80% of my time here with customers and partners. And that's a big difference. >> Well we look forward to covering the partner network this year. >> Awesome >> Your amazing, we'll see Teresa Carson on theCube here at 3:30. We are going to ask her some tough questions. What should we ask Teresa? >> What to jest Teresa? Where did you get those red pants? (everyone laughs) >> She's amazing, and again. >> She is amazing. >> We totally believe in what you're doing, and we love the impact, not only the technology advancement for modernizing the public sector across the board. But there's real opportunity for the industry to make, shape technology for betterment. >> Yeah. >> You're doing a great job. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. I think we should start another hashtag for theCube too, is #technologyforgood. >> Awesome. >> What do you think? >> Let's do it. >> I love that. >> But Jonathan been doing a lot of work in that area. >> I know he has. >> We love that. #technologyforgood, #techforgood. This is theCube here live in Las Vegas for re:Invent. I want to thank Intel and AWS, this is the big stage. We had two stages, without sponsoring our mission we wouldn't be here. Thank you AWS and Intel. More coverage after this short break. (dramatic music)

(mellow music) >> Announcer: Live, from New Orleans, it's theCUBE, covering Veeam ON, 2017, brought to you by Veeam. >> We're back at the big easy, this is theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage Dave Valente with Stu Miniman, Jason Buffington, long time CUBE guest and lead analyst at ESG, Jason, great to see you again. >> Thanks for having me >> @JBuff you're welcome, it's always a pleasure. You are an icon in this business. Ratmeyer today on theCUBE brought you up, said my friend, Jason Buffington, made an observation about the industry, and it's great to see you again. >> Thank you. >> So, you got some good play in the keynotes this morning, you guys just recently did a study that you spearheaded, talking about the availability gap, tell us about that research. >> So, 24 countries, a little under 1100 enterprises. So all organizations, over 1000 employees, and what we wanted to look at was how often are you down, how much does it cost when you're down, what are the differences between what the business expects of you, versus what you can actually deliver. Right, and by the way, that's the definition of the gap. Right, so the business expects that we cannot tolerate more than 30 minutes of downtime, and yet your fail over window is two hours. You have the availability gap. If the business says I cannot tolerate more than an hour of data loss, but you only backup once per night, you have a protection gap, right. So, looking at those gaps between the business expectations, and what IT can deliver, via whatever tools they're using, it was an unbiased panel, is what we went off and quantified. There were some really interesting numbers in there. >> Were you able to go to the same firm and ask of business people and IT people at the same firm? >> No, in this case what we did is we looked for IT decision makers who were familiar with the data protection processes they were using, and as well as being able to speak to business issues. So kind of look for the director IT, VP IT, someone who already has the business grade conversation. Probably the person who is being held accountable by the business units when IT fails to deliver. >> Do you think that, we've had a bunch of conversations with the practitioners today about what's the business conversation like, "well we go to the business" "and say how much data are you willing to lose." "Well none!" and then they go back and say >> There's a price for that >> There's a price for that, right. And most are not doing charge backs, some are doing show backs, so it's up to IT to say okay, look, we know they can't afford it. We can't afford it, so this is the level of service that we're going to give them. Do you think that's where the availability gap exists? Or is it because people have the wrong architecture, the wrong processes? >> I think it's more the former than the latter. I did a breakout session on this report earlier today. There was a great question in Q & A, why is it backup is still broken? Why is it no one can fix these gaps? And, what I offered them was that there's a lot of folks that just underestimate backup. They think of it as a cost center. They think it's always broken. Well, backup is not broken, the problem is if we were all still using Windows server 2003 physical boxes and exchange and sequel were still on pram and file was just that, we'd have solved backup ten years ago, right. But every time that you modernize production, it forces a modernization of protection. If you do it reactively, it's because you put in this brand new shiny flex pod or v-block or whatever, and figured out oh that legacy backup doesn't work. If you do it proactively, then you're catching up with things. But the problem is if you underestimate the importance of that, you get these gaps, right? So, what I counseled to the room that I was in was the first thing you have to do is you have to stop talking about data protection, even availability as an IT problem. It is a business impact cause, period. Right, so the first thing you want to do is you want to get all the tech out of the conversation. So, I offer a formula up, I published a book back in 2010, and there's a free chapter. I'll get it to you, so you can put in online, but I basically breakdown the cost of downtime into four values. There's the cost of lost data, there's the cost of lost productivity, right. So there's time down and time you have to repeat. And you can equate those to R2 and RPO. But a parentheses around those and times what's the human cost plus the profitability cost. And that's overly simple, but the point is if you know how long you're down, if you know how much data you will have lost, multiply that times how many butts and seats are sitting idle and how much did the inside sales department not sell that hour, right. That tells you cost of outage. And then all you have to do at that point, and there's no tack in that, right. It's just what is your RPO in real, what's your RTO in real, how much do your humans cost, how much does your department lose? If you have those four things, you know how much the problem is. Then, all you have to do is just go back to your system log and say how many times did that happen this year. If you do that, you've turned an IT problem into a business problem. Anytime I get a hold of C-level executives, the first thing I talk to them about availability is downtime is not in your budget, right. The idea of doing nothing costs you money. That's not in your budget and I guarantee of you did a data protection and availability solution, that will cost you less to your bottom line than the downtime that's unplanned that you have not budgeted for. >> Jason, Ratmere in the keynote this morning talked about the last ten years and they launched a new logo, talked a lot about cloud and physical and the next 10 years. What's your take on the message? Veeam just changed the leadership up a little bit. Are they in a transitional phase? Where are they positioned for kind of that next wave? >> So, the whole market's kind of in a transitional phase. So, I've been in data protection for 28 years. The only thing I've done since before getting out of school. Every time that we've had a major IT platform shift, the leaders in data protection have not made that jump, right. I started when we were doing mid-range, going to netware and over to Windows. >> That was what Ratmeyer was saying today. I didn't want to steal your thunder, so I'm glad you've brought this up. He noted that you had observed this, so carry on. >> Yeah so in times passed, we went went from physical to virtual servers, those leaders didn't make the jump and Veeam did, right. Veeam kind of took the crown on that for this whole last run. Our platform is shifting again, right. Now the difference this time around is and by the way the reason that most people don't make the jump is because whatever made you great from a technology perspective the last time around, doesn't apply to the new platform, right. So, NLMs didn't apply to Windows, agents didn't apply to hosts. We're now moving into cloud, but it's not a cloud, right. Some folks want IS, some want SAS. Neither of those use the same approaches that Veeam's secret sauce for host-based protection will carry for. So, the industry is in kind of a flux, and the other thing which is different this time around is when I was helping people move on to Windows NT, the presumption was we we're going to shutdown all the netware when we were done, right. For most of us, as we move into virtual machines, the presumption was we'd get rid of the metal on the way out. In this case though, cloud is not necessarily the end state, the end state is hybrid. Some data will be on pram, most of that data will be virtualized, some of it will still be physical. Right, the data that's in the cloud. Some of it will just be cloud stores, some of it will be the IS hosted VM, some of it will be SAS. But that's not because it's a prolonged transition, it's because we shouldn't be talking about migration, we should be talking about agility, where some data starts in the cloud and comes home. Other data starts on pram and moves, or from cloud to cloud. Because of that multi-cloud hybrid architecture, if that's the new end state for what IT is going to be delivering on, then the rules change. There is no secret sauce that carries from the last generation over. Certainly, Veeam's going to continue to be thought of as the virtualization data protection solution. But, if you think about they've added agents for physical, they've added cloud-based support on the back end. They announced more support for Office 365 and SAS. They're not a virtualization only play anymore. So, the market is going to have to take a reset, where everybody is unified, the difference is you've got the legacy folks that are unified and trying to catch up on virtualization features. And you've got Veeam, who is unified, where their virtualization is their strong suit, and cloud hosted and physical are the catch ups. So they're flying in opposite directions. >> So, you're saying that Veeam's secret sauce doesn't and virtualization doesn't necessarily carry over, however, they're making moves that will allow them to bridge, is that right? >> Absolutely, so unlike everyone else, who is in that virtualization wave, who solved the end protection and then happily got sold for their IP and you don't know those brands anymore. In this case, Veeam has continually looked at what else do people need, let's go do that. So, 4 or 5 years ago they added snapshot support, which wasn't necessary, but added more scenarios. Then, they added tape, who adds tape in 2015? Right, but they did because they recognized that people needed tape out, and since then they've added cloud, a couple different versions of cloud. This week they announced continuous data protection. Now, I'm glad no one from SNIA is around, cause they have a very prescriptive definition of what CDP is supposed to look like, and this isn't exactly that, so it's really more like KCDP, Kind of CDP, kind of thing. But, they continue to arrow the edges. They added physical support, those agents walls will allow them for IS hosted. They're not unified anymore, and that forward motion, but the moment they've got coming off of the first strategy, that's what's going to keep them moving forward for the next ten years. >> What makes is not KCDP, and makes it pure CDP? Just an infinite granularity or? >> Well, if you ask SNIA folks, they would tell you it's not just about infinite granularity on the protection, it's also infinite recoverability on the way back. So every single microsecond, so-- >> Stu: That's CRR isn't it? >> Yeah, think more like sequel does with every given transaction, could we go back to a given point. >> You need a data base to be involved, to actually get there. >> Yeah, but again, what I think is interesting is it's not just about backup, so in the availability report we talked about the gap between how little downtime that an organization can tolerate, versus just backup can't meet that goal. You can't recover fast enough if the only thing you're going to do is restore from backup. So, being able to integrate snapshots, being able to have replication, which shrinks down that data loss window considerably, that's how you meet the rest of the story, that backup alone can't do. And kudos to Veeam for doing it. >> Jason, how should we think about some of these emerging players who are actually in Veeam's ecosystem? Like Rubric or Cohesity, or Datos. Datos is not here, These sort of new, emerging, they don't want to call themselves backup players, they want to call themselves data protection or availability. How should we think about those emerging players? >> So, I have a category in a slide. I put them all in the category that I lovingly call the disrupters, right, because it forces you to reconsider the conversation. If you kind of step back and I could put Veeam and some of the other legacy unified enterprise class data protection products in one category, and what all of them are saying is let's take the backups that you know and trust us with. We're going to add indexing, we're going to add orchestration, we're going to help you do more with your data along the way. The end result is what the industry is calling copy data management. What else can you do with that data, which is otherwise dormant, sitting away in a store. What the disrupter category would tell you, is instead of starting with backup, and trying to evolve it forward, start with new storage. Think of the things you could do with a new paradigm for storage. >> So, the storage that would automatically know where the footprints are, that would automatically back you up along the way, that would automatically allow for copy data management type scenarios. So, again, it's two ways to get there. There's the backup first approach, and building on who you trust, then, there's the, if you want to start over again, have I got a deal for you. And that's going to be really interesting. For the rest of 2017 and 2018, the whole space of copy data management, copy data virtualization, copy data fill in the blank, that whole idea of good, better, best. Good, keep all your data as long as you need. Better, and get rid of it a moment longer. Then best, what else can you do with it. Analytics, testing, reporting, et cetera. That'll be an interesting market to watch, and one that now that Veeam is broad enough, will start to play in now as the year moves forward. >> Jason, like us, you go to a lot of these conferences. You've been to the Veeam on trail, which was our first one here. For the audience it's not here. What differentiates this show from some of the other ones you go to. What excites you about the community, the show itself, anything surrounding it? >> Sure, Veeam has a wonderful sense of community that most of the other vendors have just not been able to capitalize on. You know, there's certainly, there are many many thousands of IT professionals that have made their career out of this storage platform, or that backup software platform, et cetera. And, they're all good for support. Veeam has somehow cracked that code like Microsoft MVPs. The difference between a post-sale's we'll help you if you want, to a pre-sale's advocates. They literally have a green army walking around on this floor, who is delighted to tell anybody who will listen how Veeam saved their bacon, gave them back their weekend, et cetera. That energy of community, that's what's different about not only Veeam ON, it's also what's different about like a Veeam party at Vmworld or a Microsoft event. That culture and community, they've tapped something special there, and it shows in their results. >> Alright, we've got to wrap there, but I'll give you the last word, any upcoming research we should be paying attention to, or you want to promote a little bit? >> Sure, my blog within ESG is technicaloptimist.com. I do primary research on a whole bunch of things. Next ones coming out are on data protection modernization. So, why are people staying put or changing. If so, why or why not, and then what features matter most. So that's the next one that'll come out for me, and then over the summer I'm going to look at appliances as form factor, there's a lot of those to look at this week. What the affect of the DVA and the VM are having in the market, and then also more on the availability study. What we did for Veeam was so interesting ESG is going to go and take a few other angles and look at it some more. >> Awesome, great research agenda you've got upcoming. We will be looking for that, so, Jason, thanks very much, it was a pleasure to see you. >> Thanks for having me. >> You're welcome, alright, keep it right there buddy. We'll be back, with our next guest at theCUBE. We're live from Veeam ON, 2017 in New Orleans, We'll be right back. (upbeat music)