>> Voiceover: Live from Orlando, Florida. It's The Cube. Covering ServiceNow Knowledge 17. Brought to you by ServiceNow. (upbeat techno music) >> Welcome back to Orlando, everybody. This is The Cube, the leader in live tech coverage, and we're here in Orlando at the Knowledge conference. Knowledge 17, ServiceNow's big customer show, and that's one of the things Jeff and I, Jeff Frick my co-host and I'm Dave Vellante like about Knowledge is we get to talk to the practitioners, the customers, the doers Naresh Samlal is here, he's the director of mobility and process automation at VITAS Healthcare. Thanks for coming on The Cube. >> Ah, I am glad to be here thank you for having me. >> You're welcome. Tell us about VITAS. What's the organization about >> So VITAS is the largest hospice and palliative care provider in the country. What's unique about our business is that our patient care staff is really in the field. They're not bounded by four walls as compared to a typical healthcare provider. So our nurses, our chaplains, physicians and so forth go to the homes of our patients and being in hospice that, you know, our... We truly believe that Your best care is delivered in your own home, and so that's VITAS's directive is to really deliver that care in their home. Which really creates for a unique setting in managing you know, logistics and the staffing around that whole solution. But we've done it really well for 30 years and, you know we're looking forward to a great future with that. >> Well it's a really important service. Obviously, you know, families and loved ones can be together, and gather in very difficult times. Now in the past 30 years technology has changed quite a bit. How has that affected your business? >> Yes, that's a great question. In many ways, technology at VITAS has not changed. And so a lot of things that we have done historically have been... And still today there's many things that are still the same because that's what works and at the end of the day this fight, leveraging technology, the sensitive time in someone's life really needs that personal interaction and technology can't substitute that. However, we always are challenging ourselves to make that interaction more efficient with technology. So most recently, actually last year, we completed a deployment of 8,000 mobile devices to our patient care staff. So our nurses prior to this rollout walked around with 25 pounds of paper. They were traveling from their homes to our patients' homes, to our offices back and forth with paper, they didn't have access, real time access, to patient records like they do today. We replaced an entire binder with a mobile device. >> Dave: I was going to say these things change the world right? >> With an iPhone. Absolutely. >> So how many how many stops did it, you know, just a little bit of that kind of, their workflow how many stops a day do they make, kind of, what's kind of the scope of that? >> So that's a great question Um, they may, they'll have a starting point in a day, they know where their first patient they don't know where their last patient or how many they're going to see that day. So it could vary. It could be, you know five, it could be up to ten. And it varies based on the need, based on what that visit calls for. So it really varies and being able to have realtime information now and be more flexible and more efficient with these devices we're really able to allow them to give better care and more care quite frankly. >> Jeff: Right. >> So take us through the sort of case example of how you brought in ServiceNow Where's the driver and how did it change your organization. >> So there's quite a bit of efficiency and I talked about how the business has not changed very much over the course of time. But mobile devices as it relates to mobility and VITAS we really saw an opportunity to leverage the staff that we have to do more with them and give them the ability to give better care and not have to worry about the administrative aspects that come with that. For example, today they're able to access our EMR so they patient data right on their mobile device they can order drugs for our patients right on their mobile device. They can enter their time, their traveling, all these logistics that they weren't able to do they had to literally leave their home, go to a patient, go back to our main office or program office in that location, scan any documents they need to scan, enter any time, do some administrative stuff, go back out, that's kind of what the day looked like and so now with these devices we're able to free them up from having that extra travel. There's obviously a lot of cost saving opportunities around that, but it really allowed for, it allows for a nurse and a patient caregiver to maybe be able to see a patient, one patient more, two patients more in a day so that really transforms our business and really at the end of the day it's really going to allow VITAS to provide care because we believe we provide the best care in hospice and palliative care. You know, we feel that if you're not with VITAS you're not getting the best care and this really allows us to really see that through and position ourselves to deliver more. >> So where did you start with ServiceNow? >> So ServiceNow was actually introduced on the ITSM side so we brought it in to really fix our ticketing system get it up to, you know where it needed to be at the very least and out of that there was a parallel opportunity for us at management. So mobility was in its very infancy at the time. We knew we wanted to do it, we knew it could happen, we knew the benefits of it, but the reality of it was a little bit farfetched. Right? And so ServiceNow combined with a few other partners that we work with, really bringing that together and finding that secret sauce, and finding the right recipe for making that work allowed us to do this. One of the biggest things with managing so many devices and them being mobile, you know, physically off our premises is not knowing where they are, right? You know they don't actually hold patient data but there's some risk around security and exposing that so losing these devices, them getting in the wrong hands, was really important for us. So we really needed to first and foremost know where all our devices are at any given moment. Coupled with a few other pieces that work well with ServiceNow we now have that single pane of glass that we can really know exactly where the devices are, manage them in real time, we are able to tie our financial data right back to them so we're able to really get the full visibility of what mobility looks like and ServiceNow is at the core of that. They're at the center, we bring everything back into ServiceNow so we have one place to go manage our data, share and really, you know, be effective with it. >> So the data, the patient data, lives in the cloud? Is that right? >> So, essentially yes. So no data actually lives on the device, it's all a matter of the device being able to access the cloud. So through wifi, if they're at a hospital or if they're at a patient's home, or LTE coverage. >> And it used to live in paper that somehow got scanned, right? Which... >> I can't imagine, 'cause they don't know what the route is so now I assume they go to their first stop, it's got all that patient ABC, they finish, check in, I'm done, and then, where am I going next, get the data. >> I'm glad you brought that up, and so today they're able to access that information and I think part of the next step as to where VITAS is going is to really systematically tell them okay this is probably your next stop and not with a phone call to find out if they're available to do that but systematically know that they're available, when they're going to be available, and set them up with that information. And so that's really where we're looking to next. For mobility and technology at VITAS. >> What about all the, the compliance, the Affordable Care Act, EM, you had mentioned EMR, meaningful use, I mean all these things that you have to worry, HIPAA, maybe the potential unwinding of the Affordable Care Act, or maybe the evolution of it, I mean all these things you got to keep track of, where does that fit? >> So another great point, you know, one of the things, one of the things is, hospice is or end of life care really consumes about 30% of one's cost throughout their life. Most people don't realize that. That's your most expensive time in your life, in your cycle, that's going to go to what's healthcare. And that's where VITAS is very sensitive. And the other thing to note is that the average patient with VITAS is with us for two weeks. So timing is everything. >> Jeff: Two weeks. >> Yes. >> Dave: Yeah, short time. >> Right, so it gives... >> Jeff: And how many visits? What's the average number of visits in that two weeks? >> So we have 16,000 patients on our uh... >> No I mean for that particular, I mean what's kind of your average visits per patient over that two weeks? >> That may vary, depends on the patient, and this is average, right? So that may vary, sometimes it's 24/7 care other times it may be a couple times a day other times maybe once a day. And it really depends >> Dave: Okay, and so it's typically at least once a day, right? >> At least once a day, right. So that's not uncommon. So going back to your question, these things all come into play where as an organization, we feel the effects of regulation changes, right and that impacts our financials as well, so mobility, bringing mobility to the table with the help of ServiceNow and these other players that we make this work really helps us realize these efficiencies. Which at the end of the day, this is how we're able to really stay afloat in those areas and really not feel the impacts quite frankly. And if you look at our last quarter, we thrive. >> Yeah I mean and get paid on time, and not have to go back and forth, back and forth >> Well even like audit I would imagine I mean does the GPS data that demonstrates that your people were there, you know figure back into audits and all kinds of stuff I would imagine >> Right, and we are heavily audited with our devices as well. I mean they're very sensitive You got to think about it too, mobility and such a paradigm shift for a company like VITAS was and is very scrutinized, right? We spend a considerable amount of money in this program. We also see a lot of returns on it. But, it's a very different approach for folks that have done things a certain way for a really long time, right, so you talk about audits, going back to financials ServiceNow really allows us to stay really close to that. Be really tight, and speak with confidence when we provide our data, right, so our CFO is very sensitive to that and in a moment's notice we are able to respond to his request for last week's financials, last month's, what is our loss rate? You know, things like that just wasn't, we didn't have access to that type of date before. And quite frankly it's not something that's very common So most organizations see mobility I would have to say more as a luxury compared to how VITAS uses it today Today, this device is the clinical workstation at VITAS This is how our patient care staff works. This allows them to be productive. It's not a luxury. >> And how often do they come back to the barn, just to come back to the barn so they can get, they're you know, in the field most of the time actually working. >> So at the very least they may come back, they'll come back once a week now for a team meeting versus much more frequent for administrative work. Right? So that's had a tremendous impact on them. >> And how long ago again did you kind of roll out the solution? >> So we completed the rollout to the full audience at the end of last year so Q4 of last year so we've been at full feet for two quarters now and we're, and that really was setting the stage for what's to come next, right, so we're in the middle of rolling out an application right now which is going to allow our patient care staff to order drugs so our physicians and nurses can submit the request for drugs, and like items to treat our patients where as before, what that looked like was them having to leave the patient's house, run to the store, come back, or do a mail order request for drugs. So today... >> And will that be in the ServiceNow app or are you using ServiceNow to kind of manage everything and that's a separate kind of an app? >> Did you guys develop that app on top of ServiceNow or... >> We, so that is isolated from ServiceNow today, but we're standing it up as is, however that's something that we're actually considering looking at ServiceNow to see how we can play in that space as well because ServiceNow has done a lot for us, right we know it's a fantastic tool. We've used it in ways that are unconventional and we continue to do that. So part of, a lot of why we're here this week is to really capitalize on how they help us too. And so we're embarking on the journey program with ServiceNow to really look at how we can transform our business even further and opportunities like this really play a role into that. >> And so are you developing apps on ServiceNow or >> So we do have custom apps on ServiceNow, today they're very, you know, they're quick wins internally they really don't extend towards business they're more internal to IT, but that's really what the next phase of what we're looking at is how does ServiceNow really impact our business and our business processes, right, that's really our next step. >> And we can, can we differentiate just for my own edification, custom apps versus custom modifications, right? Those are two different things right? >> Configurations, right? >> Custom apps, you're building an app on top of the platform, what about custom mods, are you avoiding those at all costs? >> So, I can't say we're avoiding them at all costs and you really can't. You have to have some customization. We try to limit those so we can take on upgrades and take on, and be swift with all the new features that they bring on. So we're one version behind by, you know by design, and so, we're able to consume that as fast as they are able to release it because of our light customization. We try to stay out of the box. >> When you upgrade, do you test... So you're what in -1? >> Right. >> Okay, do you always upgrade to the next version, do you sometimes leapfrog? >> I have not had to leapfrog yet, so we've been pretty good about that and I plan to stick hard into that. >> So help us understand some maybe advice for other customers is you don't really want to leapfrog if you don't have to but sometimes you have to because you're too late in the upgrade cycle, is that right? >> Yeah. >> Okay, so. >> I mean, it's not ideal because you introduce a lot of unknowns if you have to leapfrog, right and ServiceNow, let me say this to your service, the upgrade process with ServiceNow has been unlike anything, any other upgrade process I've been through of any software. >> Dave: In what sense? >> It's been smooth, we've had very little issues coming out of it, we do full regression testing, but our findings are always very minimal, but the actual upgrade process is short, it's effective, it works, it's very informative, and they're getting even better at that, so for, you know that gives us a lot of peace of mind that we have a stable platform that we can really build and thrive on. >> How many upgrades have you gone through? >> We've done three so far? >> Okay >> What is short, Naresh with how long... >> I'm, you know I've done, I've seen inside of an hour at times, so our instance, we're two years into ServiceNow so we don't have you know, massive amount of data like maybe other companies do. We have substantial data there, but they're pretty quick I've seen an hour to do an upgrade. >> And how disruptive is an upgrade? >> Not at all. Here's one of my favorite parts about the upgrade is I don't have to announce that we're doing an upgrade to the general population. >> (laughs) >> Okay, they don't even know. >> That's a good indicator. >> They don't know. They're actually working in it while it's being upgraded. They log off, log back on, new version. Right? So I've been able to consume these upgrades as fast and as easily as I'm talking about. So I did one thing that was probably different than most people are doing. I'm suppressing the UI upgrade, and taking the platform upgrade, so the look and feel stays the same, and so we're in the middle of a program right now to relaunch ServiceNow with a new look and feel, new branding, just give it a whole new facelift, that's when I'm going to release the new UI. That's when we're going to give it... >> Jeff: But you really separate the skinning and the UI from the underlying platform. >> Yeah and you're allowed to do that, right? That's one of the points about it. >> And the UI changes, not on every cycle, is that correct? I mean it just changes periodically right? >> It's periodically. There's been subtle changes, and then there's been you know, full revamp for the better, but for the most part we're able to consume it and stay current with it because, you know, we can contain it that much. >> Yeah but it's different and then the user says oh, you know even like you know, crappy Gmail when they changed the, like oh it's new. >> You got to learn it all over again, you don't like it, it grows on you, well, you know we can control that now. We don't have to like, react to it every time. >> And the strategy to be in -1 is, can you explain that? What's the logic behind that? >> Yeah absolutely, so there's constantly a ton of new features. ServiceNow is learning from us and from many customers and really being reactive to that. And so I want that whatever we have and we're trying to do we're getting, we have access to the latest and greatest, and we don't have to go build something if I know it's there It also helps us identify and plug gaps in our system, so, in our processes. So, for example, we may know we have a host of different things that we need to regularly work on. Consuming an upgrade and it being so simple as just turning something on or just start using it means I can get to be more efficient quicker rather than having to put that on a priority list and get focused, and get a project going, and get a team behind it, it's just more consumable that way and we're able to be more agile, and improve quicker as well. So that's one of the reasons I like doing upgrades and staying current with it. >> Alright Naresh, thanks very much for coming onto The Cube, I appreciate you sharing >> I appreciate it, thank you so much for having me. >> Yeah, thank you. >> Alright keep it right there buddy, we'll be back with our next guest... (applause) Thank you! Right after this short break. (upbeat techno music)

>> Voiceover: Live, from Orlando Florida, it's theCUBE, covering ServiceNow Knowledge17, brought to you by ServiceNow. >> Welcome back, this is Day 3 of ServiceNow Knowledge17, and this is theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage, where we go out to the events and we extract the signal from the noise. My name is Dave Vellante, and my co-host this week has been Jeff Frick. Not only this week, Jeff, but for the last five years, we've been doing ServiceNow Knowledge events, really getting a sense as to what this company is all about, the evolution of the company, the transformation from really early days of IT, help desk, service management, to now just permeating throughout the enterprise. One of the key things, Jeff, that is notable, and that we saw a couple years ago, I think it was three years ago, when they had the first CreatorCon. In fact, actually, in 2013, I think you did a little sidebar, you went out-- >> It was the Hackathon, we went with Allan Leinwand and checked in on the Hackathon. >> The point I want to make is that we work with these events, we come to these events. We see a lot of large company events, And whether it's Oracle or IBM or HPE, even, in the past. Even EMC with its code initative, they are drooling over developers. They can't get enough developer action, and it's like ServiceNow builds this platform, they create, they open it up with this low-code development kit, essentially, throw their glove in the field, and everybody comes to the game. >> Right, right. >> It's just amazing, and so today, Day 3, is about CreatorCon, and it was hosted by Pat Casey, who's the senior vice president of DevOps, and really the closest, I think, to the Fred Luddy DNA. I mean that's really Pat, you know, Fred Luddy's the founder of the company and sort of the icon of ServiceNow, not here, you know? We're entering a new era and it's really underscored culturally by CreatorCon and Pat Casey. You were in there today. What'd you think? >> Was it Fred termed the citizen developer? I can't remember, I'll have to go back and check the tape, because he definitely talked about low code, and I think he may have been the one that said citizen developer. And it's funny, even with CJ Desai, right, when he was thinking about coming over, what was the first thing he did? He downloaded the app, and wanted to create a little app. So everybody here is a developer, and I think, just looking back at some of the interviews yesterday, Donna from Cox Automotive, she built a prototype app. It was her, one business analyst, and an intern to start a whole new perspective, so I think, you know, they're really trying to make everybody a developer. It's a different way to think, and not just the business analyst, then you have to pass it off to development, but using, again, a simple workflow tool, it's still a workflow tool, to let everybody automate processes. And we were just in the CreatorCon. The other piece that really strikes me, and it strikes me every time I look at my phone now, you know, my phone knows I follow the Warriors, and so it just automatically gives me an update. So it's kind of this soft, a push of AI and machine learning into your day-to-day activity without this heavy overlay. And that's really how they do it effectively, and then that's kind of the basis of what they're doing here with integrating the machine learning into the applications to collect the data, build the models, try to take some of the mundane, mind-numbing work off of your plate and get people doing it, real decisions based on the machine giving you better data. >> It's an incredible dynamic to me, Jeff, because it's not like this company has a blank sheet of paper and says, "Okay, let's go after developers." They have this impassioned community of people, and they just keep rolling out new function, and then of course, ServiceNow has some really killer developers, internally, and so they make those people available to inspire and educate other developers, and so, as they say, this platform just permeates throughout the organization. I mean, it's really hard to do platforms. We've seen it so many times, you know, companies saying, "Okay, we're developing a platform," and the platform gets a little traction and it gets bought out, but this company, ServiceNow, really has a foothold here. So 4,500 people at CreatorCon this year, it's up from 2,000 last year, so another example of just super meteoric growth. Pat Casey, I loved, he put up the, you know, he showed a mainframe. It actually looked like a VAX to me, but anyway he put up a mainframe, and then he showed the H-P-U-X, what did he call it, HPUX? And, oh yeah we thought that was better, and then client server, it kind of worked for a while, and then he put up "August of 1995," and of course I was immediately saying, that's Gabe Ryden. >> Right, right. >> And then he showed the NetScape logo, and that really changed the development paradigm. >> Just as a way to, you know, and I'm sure none of us thought of it, it was just kind of web bulletin boards with pictures now, when you saw NetScape back in the day, but really as an application delivery vehicle, when you think of what browsers have become, it's pretty fascinating. I had a friend who was working on Chrome, and they described it as kind of an OS in a browser, and I'm like, who would want an OS in a browser? Well, now we're basically here. It's like the old Sun Ray machine, right? Anytime you log onto your browser, you're basically into everything in your world. Whether it's your phone, your tablet, my computer, your desktop computer. It's pretty fascinating. The other thing that Pat talked about was, you know, these things that we grew up with kind of in our imagination. He talked about flying cars, and then he adjusted it to maybe electronic cars, this vision, and now, you know, electronic cars are here, and Tesla's the highest-selling luxury nameplate out there. But in my old world it was flat TVs. The Jetsons had flat TVs. The concept of a flat TV was completely bizarre, and I remember seeing the first one in Chicago, at the Consumer Electronics show. It was like nine inches, you had to have secret passes to get back to see it, but now look what happened. I can't help but think of a Mar's Law, Dave, and he's Gartner's Trough of Disillusionment. I like a Mar's Law better, which is we overestimate the impact in the short term, but way underestimate the impact in the long term. Look at flat screens now, compared to, well, it didn't even exist now. And that's going to happen in AI, it's going to happen in machine learning, and in a very short period of time, especially with the advances in compute-store, networking, cloud, speed of networks, IOT, it's going to be a phenomenal amount of horsepower driving your interaction with all these various objects. >> Look at even the dot-com, you know, how overhyped that was, when really it was underhyped. >> Jeff: Right, in the long term. >> So, the other thing I loved, we've been talking about data for quite some time, and every time we came to a Knowledge show, we'd say, is there a big data angle here? Eh, well kind of, and it's really now coming into focus what the machine learning and AI and big data angle is, and Pat threw up a really nice infographic. He went back to 1969, he gave some interesting stats that I wasn't aware of. I knew the 2k, the moon landing was done on a computer with 2k of memory, that I knew. What I did not know is that it had two programs: one for docking and one for landing, and there wasn't enough memory on the computer to have both programs, so they had to reprogram the computer after the dock. >> Not even reload, right? They couldn't just put the USB stick into it. >> They had the code, which is kind of cool. So that was 2k, he had an intern download the 1982 census, and it was 182 megabytes. And then the human genome project was 53 gigabytes, which he's right, it wouldn't have fit on your previous iPhone, but it will fit on this one. And then, I didn't know this stat, the spell-checker in all of our phones and the red lines and so forth, the back end of that, that's sitting in the cloud, is four terabytes. So you're seeing this explosion of data. These are just some simple examples. So this company, again, it's not just starting from scratch saying, here's some kind of machine learning tool, apply it. What they're doing is saying, we're going to build this into the platform, take the existing corpus of data that you have, now what is that corpus of data? It's a bunch of incidents, it's a bunch of categories and people and it's going to autocategorize, for example, all these incidents, on an existing corpus of data. That's not how most people are using machine learning today. What many people are talking about is a use case of real time continuous applications and doing machine learning in real time to try to affect an outcome, which means try to get you to buy something, or try to detect fraud, or whatever it is. Some healthcare outcome, even. Although you'd think healthcare could be some more post process, but essentially that's what ServiceNow is doing. They're using a post-process methodology on top of this corpus of data to add instant value that lives inside of the platform. It's very compelling, simple, and practical in my view. >> And that's the part I love the best, Dave, is simple and practical and delivers immediate results. Allen Leinwand, who we'll have on later and we've had on a number of times, made a mention that the other thing that's very different is now the apps are listening in real time, and they're adjusting what they're doing and rejiggering their algorithm based on stuff that's happening in real time. So it's a different way to think about applications. And just a couple of things I wanted to touch on from yesterday, with some of the guests we had, a great reason we love the show is the number of customers we get is so high. And I was just struck by Donna Woodruff from Cox Automotive, how much she understood innately that it's a platform. Yes, she bought some applications, but she really understood the platform component and was able to drive from it. And the other one I just wanted to touch on was Eresh from Vitas Healthcare, and the impact of mobile. All I could think about when he was talking about was delivery service. Where's my truck, I had my fridge fixed the other day, where's the guys he close called me, and then to apply that to something as powerful as the work they're doing around hospice and to enable that nurse to get to one more stop per day. Wow, what an impact, just by getting on mobile. And the funny part, he said, is some of their older nurses, when they saw the mobile device, said, "I'm done, I'm not doing it anymore. I'd rather schlep around 25 pages of case information and then go back and forth to the hub in between every stop." So again it's this combination of all this power, all this coming to bear along the three horses of compute that are now delivering phenomenal transformation to people that are willing to think of things in a slightly different lens. >> Yeah, and when you look at the problems that ServiceNow is solving, they are in the boring but important category. And that's why I think that this company for a long time sort of flew under the radar, and is still misunderstood. I mean, even CJ, who's basically in charge of all the products, when he was first approached by ServiceNow, he's like "Meh, I don't really know." And then he dug into it and said, "Wow." So a lot of people don't understand it. I talked to a lot of people in the software business, software sales, people that just don't understand the power of what this company does, and I would make a prediction, is that like Salesforce before it, and we've been talking about this for years, how these guys are on a collision course, and they'll say "No, no, no" but very clearly, the power of the platform that Salesforce has, for example, and ServiceNow is replicating, in some way is much much different. Because Salesforce has a lot of bulldogs, sorry, we love it, we use it, but my point is, my prediction is that over time this company is going to become a very well-known company because of the impacts that it's having on the business. It's going from boring but important to, you know, fundamental transformation of organizations. And I tell you, CRM, I even put it up there with ERP. I think that what ServiceNow is doing is as big as the ERP trend, potentially bigger when you put in all the IOT stuff and the machine learning capabilities and the like with what is a relatively modern platform. >> Well, we're in an attention game, right? On the consumer side it's about attention. The thing that people have the least amount of anymore is time, so how do you get their attention? Do they spend their time on Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, watching TV, looking at YouTube videos? Watch your kids. How do they spend those hours of their day? On the work side, what screen are you interacting with in your day? Are you in Salesforce all day? Are you in email all day? Are you in Salesforce all day? Are you in Marketo all day? That's where the competition is going to come. And there's only going to be two or three primary applications in which you engage and get work done, and they're making a hard play to say, "We are the application that we want basically in your face, that you're using to get stuff done all day long." >> One of the things, too, I wonder, you always wonder, is think about blind spots to a company like this. They're on this amazing ascendancy. What could come in and disrupt ServiceNow? And you think about the millenials, there's no question that ServiceNow is on to the new way to work. I call it the new way to work, I don't think they use that term. And the millenials are going to come in, and they don't want to use email. They're going to be much more open to adopting a platform. Now, is that platform going to be something like ServiceNow or is it going to be too boring but important? Are they going to do something more like Facebook? My feeling is this is enterprise, and as we talked about yesterday, is it possible that enterprise could actually begin adopting a lot of these consumer-like interfaces and user experiences and leapfrog in some regards because of the use of AI and the enterprise nature and the security capabilities that a company like this can bring? I don't know, maybe that's a stretch, but the gap between consumer and enterprise has to close. It is closing, and I think it will continue to close. >> I think it's the automation piece, to automate themselves out of their customer base. As more and more things are automated, there's going to be less and less and less people looking at the screen to do fewer tasks in terms of just an in. Blind spots always come where you're not looking, that's what's going to hit them, but certainly as more and more of this mundane stuff can be automated, if they can actually execute their vision so these autocategorization and autorouting and things are getting solved before they get to a customer service agent, happen, then their C-base licenses, but that's why they're trying to find other places to go. Facilities management, HR management, integration on the human connection across multiple applications, and to even these other systems, like we've heard about on the HR side, etc. So, I think that's, as the nature of work changes, what will people be doing with their work, or are they just going to be getting assigned tasks to go execute what the machines can't do? It's going to be interesting to watch it evolve. >> Well, and then coming back to the top of this segment, the developers, and that's really where the innovation occurs. The developer ecosystem here continues to grow. The importance of developers is very well understood. We've seen it previously with companies like Microsoft. We see all the big enterprise companies trying to appeal to the developer community. Certainly Amazon, Google, having great, very strong developer ecosystems, Apple as well, Facebook, and so forth. Enterprise guys continue to struggle, frankly, in that regard, and IBM's done a good job with Bluemix, but it's been a real heavy lift for IBM, HP. We've talked to, from Kadifa to all their software execs, and they just never were able to figure it out. Oracle kind of lost its developer edge, despite the fact that it owns Java now, and it's trying to get that back, whereas, as they say, ServiceNow just says, "Hey, let's have a game," and they throw their glove in the field and boom, everybody shows up. >> Think of the focus of a SaaS software company, or even like an Amazon, AWS, right? Everyone here in the company is working on platforms and derivative products from that platform. They don't have this hardware group, that hardware group, this software group, that software group. It's a single application at the end of the day. Salesforce is a single application at the end of the day, work day, single application at the end of the day. AWS, infrastructure for customers at the end of the day. So I think that gives them a huge advantage in terms of focus, everybody going in the same direction, and ability to execute. >> Everybody talks about platform as a service, and it's really, a lot of people say that whole market's collapsing. It's IaaS+, think Amazon, and it's SaaS-, think Salesforce and ServiceNow. All right, we've got to wrap. Keep it right there, buddy. We'll be back with our next guest at theCUBE, we're live, Day 3 from Knowledge17. We're right back. (upbeat music)