>> Live from Seattle, Washington it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018 brought to you by Red Hat the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's Ecosystem Partners. >> Well, everyone welcome back to theCube's live coverage here in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Three days of coverage around the Cloud Native growth, around the Ecosystem around open source, and the role of micro servers in the cloud. Our next guest is Roland Barcia who's the IBM Distinguished Engineer for IBM's Hybrid Cloud. Welcome to theCube. >> Thank you, glad to be here. >> Thanks for joining us. Being a Distinguished Engineer of IBM is a pretty big honor so congratulations. >> Thank you. >> it means you got technical chops so we can get down and dirty if we want to. >> Sure. >> I want to get your take on this because a lot of companies in IT are transforming and then that's been called digital transformation, it's happening and cloud has developed scale. And the wish list if you had the magic wand that could make things do better is actually happening. Supernetting's actually creating some goodness that if you had the magic wand, if I asked that question three years ago, if you had a magic wand what would an environment look like? Seamless operations around the cloud, so it's kind of happening. How are you guys positioned for this? Talk about the IBM cloud, what you're doing here, and how you see this cloud native market exploding. It's almost 8,000 people here up from 4,000 last year. >> Yeah, that's a great question I think. I work a lot with our enterprise clients. I'm part of what's called the IBM Cloud Garage, so I'm very customer facing. And often times, we're seeing that there is different paces of a journey. And so for example, I worked with a client that started building a cloud native application. They built about 60 micro services. And at the end of that, they were deploying it as one job which means they defeated the whole purpose of micro service architecture. And so what we really need to think about is an end to end journey. I think the developers are probably the more modern role in an enterprise, but we're starting to see modernization of an operations team for example, and adopting culture, and cutting down the walls of IT organizational groups into mixed squads, adopting something like a Spotify model. And I think a lot of the challenges in adopting kubernetes is really in cultural aspects and in enterprise. Does that make sense? >> Yeah. And because network guys are different than the app guys, and now they have policy knobs on kubernetes they can play with. Network guys love policy. >> Yeah, and they're fighting over ownership, right? >> Roland indeed. We look at that modernization, the application modernization really is that long home intent. And what we hear here is you need to be able to meet customers where they are. Sure, there's some stuff they're building shiny and new and have the developers, but enterprises have a lot of application and therefore there's a grand spectrum. What do you hear from customers? What's the easy part and where's the parts they're getting stuck? >> Yeah, so I think the easy part is writing the application. I think where they're getting stuck is really scaling it to the enterprise, doing the operations, doing the DevOps. I always tell people that a modernization journey might be better started by taking a certain class of applications like middleware where we have a WebSphere heritage from IBM, and saying why don't we take a look at containerizing that. We've built tools like Transformation Advisor that'll scan your WebSphere applications and tell you what do you need to change in that middleware application to make it behave well in a containerized platform. Then from there, you build your DevOps engine, your DevOps pipeline and you really start to get your operations teams going in delivering containers, delivering applications as containers. And then getting your policies and your standards in place. Then you can start opening up around innovation and start really driving towards building cloud native new applications in addition to that. >> One of those areas we've been talking about in the industry for decades is automation. The conversation's a little bit different these days. Maybe you can bring us up to speed about what's different than say it was earlier days. >> Yeah, I think IT organizations have always done a bit of automation. I think they write scripts, they automate builds. I think the mantra that I use is automate everything, right? Organizations need to really start to automate in a new way. How I deliver containers, but delivering the app is not enough. I need to automate all levels of testing in a modern way. Test driven development is big. At the IBM Cloud Garage, we have something we call the IBM Cloud Garage Method which really takes a set of practices like test driven development, pair programming, things out of lean startup, extreme programming, and really start to help enterprises adopt those practices. So I say why can't we automate end to end performance testing in the pipeline, and functional testing, and writing them early and in the beginning of projects? That way, as I'm deploying containers which are very dynamic, along with configuration, and along with policy you're testing it continuously. And I think that level of automation is what we need to get to. >> Talk about security as well 'cause security's one of those things where it's got to be baked in upfront. You got to think about it holistically. It's also now being pulled out of IT, it's more of a board function because the risk management is one hack you could get crushed. And so you got to have security. And the container there's a security boundary issue, so it's important. >> Last week we met with an insurance company. We did a workshop. And they walked us through all the compliant steps that they need to go through today. How they do it with traditional middleware and virtual machines and hardware and it was a very, what I'm going to say governance driven process. And so a lot of checks and balances, stop don't move forward, which is really the industry for developing and innovating is going the opposite way: self service and enabling. And there's a lot of risk with that. And so what we're really trying to do with technology is like Multicloud Manager, technology we have around multicluster, management is how do I do things like I want to check which clusters are Hipaa compliant and which ones are out. How do i force that policy? >> That's smart. >> Now that everything is software driven, software developed, there's an opportunity to really automate those checks. >> So your point automate everything. >> Yeah, I want to automate everything. >> Governance is a service. (laughing) >> Yeah, that's right. And actually, that can help get away from error prone human checks where they had all these tons of documents of all different policies they have to go through can now be automated in a seamless way. >> So compliance and governance could be a stumbling block or it can be just part of the software. That's what you're getting at here. >> That's right, that's what I'm getting at. I think the transition is look at it as an opportunity now that everything is software driven, use software disciplines that developers are used to in those security roles and those CSO roles, etc. >> So I want to ask you a question. So one of the things we're seeing obviously with the cloud is it's great for certain things, and then on premises it has latency issues. We saw Amazon essentially endorse this by saying RDS on VMware on premises. They announced Outpost had reinvent oh, latency. Things aren't moving into the cloud as fast. So you're going to see this hybrid environment. So hybrids, we get that, it's been around, check. No real discussion other than it's happening. The real trend is multicloud, right? >> That' right. >> And so multicloud is just a modern version of the word multi vendor about the client server days. So systems were a multi vendor man choice. This is a fundamental thing. It's not so much about multicloud as it is about choice. How do you guys see that? You are in an environment where you have a lot of customers who don't have one cloud, so this is a big upcoming trend in 2019. >> Most of our clients have at least five different clouds that they deal with, whether it be an IaaS, a PaaS, a SaaS base solution. What we're seeing as a trend is we talked about on premise and private and enterprise is I think is 80% of workloads are still in the data center. And so they want to build that private cloud environment as a transitionary point to public, but what we're seeing across the multicloud space is I'm going to say a new integration space. So if you really think 15 years ago, SOA and enterprise service bosses in a very centralized fashion, I think there's a new opportunity for integration across clouds and on-prem in a more decentralized way. So I think integration is kind of the next trend that we're seeing in this multicloud space because the new applications that we're seeing with cognitive data AI are mixing data sources from multiple clouds and on-prem and needing to control that in a hybrid control plane is key. >> It's funny, the industry always talks about these buzzwords, multicloud. If we're talkin' about multicloud, then it's a problem. The idea of infrastructure as code it's not even use the word multicloud. I mean, if you think about it, if you're programming the infrastructure and enabling the stuff under the covers, why even talk about cloud? It should be automated, so that's the future state, but in reality, that's kind of what enterprisers are tryin' to think about. >> They are, and I think it's a tension between innovation and moving fast and control, right? The enterprisers want to move fast, but they want to make sure that they don't break security protocol, that they don't break resiliency that they're maybe have used to with their existing customers and applications. I do think the challenge is how operations teams and management teams start to act like developers to get to that point. And I think that's part of the journey. >> Open source obviously a big part of this show, and that's open source, people contribute upstream It's great stuff. IBM is a big contributor, and it'll be even more when Red Hat gets into the mix. So upstream's great, but as you got 8,000 people here, you're startin' to see people talkin' about business issues, and other things. One of the downstream impacts of this conference being so open source centric is the IT equation and then just the classic developer. So you have multiple personas now kind of interacting. You got the developer, you got the IT architect, cloud architect pro whatever, and then you got the open source community members. Melting pot: good, challenges, thoughts? >> So I think it's so developers love that, right? I think from an enterprise perspective, there are issues. We're seeing a lot of our clients with our private cloud platform ask us to build out what's called air gapped environment which is how do I build up an open source style ecosystem within my enterprise. So things like getting an artifactory registry or a Docker registry or whatever type of registry where I get certified, open source packages in my enterprise that I've gone and done security vulnerability scans with, or that I've made sure that I look at every layer from the Linux kernel all the way up to whatever software is included. So what we're seeing is how do I open the aperture a bit, but do it in a more responsible fashion I think is the key. >> Yeah, and that's for stability, right? So Stu, one of things I've been talkin' about and want to get your thoughts on this role is that you got the cloud as a scalable system then one of the things that's being discussed in Silicon Valley now for the first time, we've been sitting on theCube for years, is the cloud's a system. It's just some architecture, it's network distributing, computing, art paradigm, all that computer science has been around for awhile, right? >> Yes, yes. >> So if you've been a systems person whether hardware or whatever, operating systems, you get cloud. But also you got the horizontal specialism of applications that are using machine learning and data and applications which is unique on top. So you have the collision of those two worlds. This is kind of a modern version of two worlds that we used to call systems and apps, but they're happening in a real dynamic way. What's your thoughts on this? Because you got the benefits of horizontally scalable cloud and you now have the ability to power that so we're seeing things like AI, which has been around for a long, long time, have a renaissance because now you got a lot of compute. >> That's right, and I think data is the real big challenge we're seeing with a lot of our clients. They have a lot of it in their enterprise, they don't want to unlock it all right away. We recently did what's called IBM Cloud Private for Data, in which we brought in a set of technologies around our AI, our Watson core to really start leveraging some of those tools in a private manner. And then what we're seeing is a lot of applications that are moving to the cloud have a data drag. It might start as something as simple as caching data and no SQL databases, but very quickly they want to learn a lot more about that data. So we're seeing that mix happening all the time. >> We've had it, we've had someone say in theCube ML's the new SQL. >> Yeah. >> Because you're starting to see SQL abstraction layers are a beautiful thing if they're connected. So I want to get your thoughts on this because everyone's kind of in discovery mode right now. Learning, there's a lot of education. I mean, we're talkin' about real, big time players. Architects are becoming cloud architects. Sysadmins are becoming operators for large infrastructure scale. You see network guys goin' wait a minute, if I don't get on the new network programmable model I'm going to be irrelevant. So a lot of persona changes in the enterprise. How are you guys handling that with customers? I know you guys have the expert program. Comment on that dynamic. >> I think what we're doing is we use the IBM Cloud Garage to bring in practices like the Spotify method where we start pushing things like >> What's the Spotify method? >> Spotify method is a way of doing kind of development where rather than having your disciplines of architects, development, operations, we're now splitting teams, let's say functionally, where I have mixed disciplines in a squad and maybe saying hey, the person building the account team has an SRE, an ops guy, a dev guy all within their same squad. And then maybe have guilds across disciplines, right? And so what we do at the Garage is we bring 'em in to one of the Garages. We have four team locations worldwide. Maybe do your first project. Then we build enablement and education around that, bring it back to the enterprise and start making that viral. And that's what we're doing in the IBM Cloud Garage. >> So not a monolithic thing, breakin' it down, integrating multiple disciplines, kind of like a playlist. >> Yeah, that's right. And I think the best way to do it is to practice it, right, in action. Let's pick a project rather than talking about it. >> If I had to ask you in 2019, what is the IT investment going to look like with kubernetes impact? How does kubernetes change the IT priorities and investments for an enterprise? >> Yeah, so I think you'll see kubernetes become a vehicle for enterprises to deliver content. So one, the whole area around helm and other package managers as a way to bundle software. I think as people build more clusters, multicluster management is going to be the big trend of how do I deal now with clusters that I have in public cloud and private cloud, all different clouds? And I think that integration layer that I talked about where what does modern integration look like across kubernetes based applications. >> Someone asked me last week at Reinvent hey, can't we just automate kubernetes? And then I was like, well it's kind of automated now. What's your thoughts on that? >> So I think when someone asks a question what does it mean to automate that I think the kubernetes stack really sits on top of IaaS infrastructure. And so for example, our IBM Cloud Private you can run it on zLinux or Power. And we have a lot of IBM folks that run multi architecture clusters. And therefore, they still need a level of automating how I create clusters over IaaS and there's technologies like Terraform and others that help with that, but then there's also automating standing up the DevOps stack, automating deployment of the applications over that stack. And I think they mean automating how I use kubernetes in an environment. >> So 2019, the year of programmability and automation creating goodness around kubernetes. >> Yeah, absolutely, >> Roland, thanks for comin' >> Thank you, it was great. >> on theCube, thanks for that smart insight. TheCube coverage here, day two winding down. We got day three tomorrow. This is theCube covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. We'll be right back with more day two coverage after this short break. (happy electronic music)

>> Live from Orlando Florida, it's theCUBE. Covering Cisco Live 2018, brought to you by Cisco, NetApp, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. (electronic music flourish) >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of Cisco Live 2018 in Orlando Florida. Joining me, my co-host for this segment Dave Vellante sitting in for John Furrier and happy to welcome to the program Jeff Eckard, who's the Vice President of Storage Solutions at IBM. Jeff, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you, good to see you guys. >> All right, and 26,000 people here. It'd been many years since I'd been to Cisco Live. There's some things that are same, many of the same faces, but a lot of new jobs, a lot of buzz going on. What's your impression been of the show this week? >> Yeah, it's been an interesting, great show for IBM and our presence, but it's a very large ecosystem of Cisco partners, a lot of their, our joint end users and a lot of focus on multi-cloud. You've consistently heard that as a theme from Cisco as well as IBM since last fall at their partner forum and they've continued it here with a lot of focus on being able to take tools and capabilities and enabling enterprises to manage data where they want to manage it. And it's really interesting, from traditional systems vendors like Cisco, to see that focus particularly around developers. >> It's been fascinating for me to watch. Jeff, you and I have some background in the storage and storage networking piece, specifically, where it was like, OK, where I sit in the stack and I've got a couple of integrations, and we work on our standards here. It's much broader. >> Oh, absolutely. The things that we're working on. We're talking about cloud. There's a lot of software that flows. Data and applications are critically important. Talk a little bit about some of that transformation and how you're seeing the expansion, and-- >> Yeah, no, it's a interesting time. If you think about the opportunities and challenges facing all enterprises, data is at the core of digital transformation, digital enhancement, whatever term you wanna use with it. Typically, it's focused in on wanting to provide realtime insights so that you make better decisions against threats or opportunities. Being able to deliver personalized services to your clients, and then also improving your internal processes and business outcomes. And so data is core for digital transformation, and you kinda see, kind of this web of what we're talking about here and then what we're doing with clients as well. >> You know, Jeff, you talk about multi-cloud, you've been in the business for a while, and throughout your career you've tried to help customers simplify their lives, and everybody felt, I thought, OK, I'm gonna put stuff in the cloud, it's gonna get simpler, and now you see this spate of clouds, whether it's infrastructures of service, private clouds, SaaS, and complexity is, in some regards, never have been higher, particularly as it relates to the data. >> That's right. >> You've gotta figure out, where do you put this stuff? How do you protect it, what about governance? Even if you think security's better in the cloud, it might be different for every cloud. So how is IBM approaching, generally in your team, specifically approaching simplifying the complex of this multi-cloud world? >> Sure, so from an IBM Perspective, at the top level we approached it with innovative technology and a lot of industry expertise, whether it's in financial services or healthcare, cloud and what we do with the public IBM cloud is really important around the services we provide there, data and AI, and then as you come down from that, modern infrastructure is key because modern infrastructure supports the data. So when you look at 80% of enterprises are intending to be multi-cloud. Something like 70% already are, right? Because of what you referenced with the consumption of SaaS. So, multi-cloud is the defacto operating model for applications and then, therefore, for the data. So from an IBM storage and SDI perspective, we kind of view... There are three primary adoption patterns that we're seeing with our clients. The first is around modernizing traditional applications or workloads, which also drags modern infrastructure, flash-based systems, leveraging more of storage efficiency technologies, like compression and dedupe, being able to protect that data, whether it's in a traditional VMware environment or the emerging containers environment. So, yeah, data's at the core. The partnership that we have with Cisco around VersaStack enables us to support traditional private clouds, whether those are built on the VMware set of tools or now, as last week we announced, the VersaStack for IBM Cloud Private. IBM Cloud Private is an enterprise platform for developers to leverage microservices and containerized IBM Middleware Services, whether that's WebSphere or MQ or Microservices Builder, as well as a whole catalog of open source technologies and tools to get agility out of the DevOps process and then also layer on analytics on top of that. >> So customers, they're gonna want consistency across all those clouds. So what role do you guys bring? Are you trying to be a platform of platforms, or is that too aspirational? Obviously, you can't have 100% market shares, so that's not practical. But to the extent that people adopt your technologies, is that how we should be thinking of about it? >> Well, so IBM Cloud Private is an open platform. It's built on Docker runtimes and Kubernetes orchestration. It's open to where you can leverage things like Red Hat OpenShift if you've chosen them for your containers platform, and then we also support the traditional Private Clouds with VMware. So, there's a whole set of tools in there. What we're trying to do from a data management perspective is protect it, whether that's backup and recovery, morphing into this new category of secondary data reuse. So, for instance, from a traditional workflow of just doing backup and recovery, we can now take native format copies of the data, whether that's in Oracle or SQL Server database, et cetera, and take that data to the Public Cloud, where different personas and use cases can act on that data. So you can spin up a VM from that Native format within our tools in the IBM cloud. So that's from a data protection standpoint. On data management, we have, later this year, we'll talk more formally about programs that we have around metadata management. That's where you can index and classify, for instance, unstructured or structured data, and act on that in terms of, where was it last accessed? Who should be accessing it? Is it personally identifiable information? Do I wanna run analytics on it? So the metadata management is an opportunity to plug in to broader IBM things, whether it's Watson data platform or information governance catalogs, to provide that kind of uber across cloud infrastructure management. >> And that's a machine sort of intelligence, automation component, that scale, right? >> It could absolutely be used for augmented intelligence, artificial intelligence, some of the machine learning pieces as well. >> Jeff, Jeff, I'm wondering if you could give us a little insight of some of the places that customers are falling down. We were just talking to a systems integrator before you came on and he said, "Well, sometimes I take a virtualized environment "and I move it and it's not really geared "for this modern platform." Containerization can help in a lot of these environments, so when you talk about the pattern we've seen that works many times is you modernize the platform, and then I can modernize the application, start pulling things apart, start refactoring, start playing with some of these environments because I can't just... Lift and shift can help, but it can't be that's the only move. There's a lot of work that needs to get done, and a lot of time that's underestimated. >> Right, well it's not a panacea, but there is a key tool called Transformation Advisor that is part of the IBM cloud platform. It's intended to assist with the challenge that you just stated, which is, OK, how do I take a traditional workload, determine if it's ready to be containerized, and then start the process of containerization. You can go back to some of the VM migration pieces, too. There's a whole set of tools that enterprises have used. Transformation Advisor is one tooling example of what we can do in the platform. And then we obviously have services through Global Services that can help at a large scale for enterprises to kinda make that step. >> You bring up a good point there, 'cause we always struggle with some of these tool transformations, but if you go back to virtualization it was really some of the organizational things that had to shift. Wonder if you can talk about some of the things that are changing here. This show, we've spent a lot of time talking about Cisco's moving up the stack, network people are much more closer tied to some of those new application development, especially with things like intent-based networking. >> Well, it's a interesting reminder that we get often from clients, 'cause you're really touching at some of the remember the operational steps, things like containerization are interesting new technologies, and there's a lot of advantages to them. But just going back a minute, of the heritage with what we've been doing with Cisco around VersaStack, leveraging it on a VMware environment, we hear a lot from customers that their operational practices really are set around Vmware and the VMware tooling. So one of the things that we did with IBM Cloud Private is, it can run on top of VMware. So as customers want to take a kind of transitive step towards microservices, they can continue to leverage their operational practices around VMware. So it's important to, it sometimes takes enterprises a little bit longer than you may guess, right, to embrace the new set of things. Our product portfolio and our directions are set where they can leverage some of the operational pieces they already have. >> Well, just for our viewers who may not know, I mean, the recent history of IBM and Cisco is quite interesting. IBM at one point purchased a company called BNT, which got sold as part of the X86 sale to Lenovo. That opened up a huge opportunity for IBM and Cisco to partner because it was very clear swim lanes. And that sorta catalyzed a relationship that from your standpoint, VersaStack was sort of the first instantiation of that relationship. So, take us through, sort of, where you guys are in the partnership and where you see it going. >> Sure, yeah, so VersaStack, for folks who may not be familiar, it's a Converge System, right? So it's IBM storage, flash or otherwise, leverages Cisco UCS servers, and then their Nexus and MDS Switching. So it's integrated, validated as a single solution to, as the name implies, to be very versatile and provide agility and flexibility. And so, through our routes to market, either with distribution or resellers or system integrators, it is a way that we can address platforms that matter to our joint customers. We've talked about IBM Cloud Private. A lot of heritage around VMware and SQL server and Oracle and a lot of focus around SAP HANA. So, we typically will partner around which enterprise platforms are we going, and then we also partner, in general, around MDS Switching with Cisco, and we'll talk more about that in months to come as we enhance that relationship. >> So, the solutions part of your title, you just mentioned VMware, Oracle, SAP HANA, there may be others. How do you guys approach solutions? Maybe you can talk about that a little bit. >> Yeah, so a solution, at a PetaLogic level, is a successful repeatable outcome. And what we focus on, then, are the integrations that matter. Those could be, integrations with IBM tools, like we talked about with IBM Cloud Private. Could be the integrations that we do jointly with Cisco through the validated design process for some of these applications or databases. And so we have teams that do the validation work and figure out how we marry IBM capabilities with ecosystem capabilities. And there's a whole, whether we're automating private clouds or accelerating workloads including the partnership that IBM and Cisco have with Horton Works. And then in industry context as well, particularly in healthcare and financial services. We'll pick the platforms that really matter and then do the integrations that enable us to take, whether it's our systems or our software or IBM level capabilities to market. >> I wanna come back to this simplicity theme, specifically in the context of data protection. With all this multi-cloud, data protection has become a really hot topic. You guys have dramatically simplified your data protection offering with Spectra Protect Plus. Talk about data protection, how it's changing from where it used to be just, OK, it's a virtualized world. We kind of understand the challenges of virtual data protection. That has played itself out, and now there's a whole new wave coming. What's your perspective on this? >> Well, I don't know if the virtual is play, I mean, the virtualized environment is still kind of paying the freight, if you will. >> Yeah, played out in terms of-- >> Yes, no, no, yeah, right. >> We understand what had to change. >> Right. And customers have made that change >> Yeah, and your simplicity point on that is really key. So one of the enhancements that we announced last year at VMWorld was Spectrum Protect Plus. So that's an agent list, OVA based, VM based backup and recovery tool. And it's very simple to use. The trick is that we've focused its capabilities around secondary data re-use. So I mentioned earlier, that whole workflow has evolved to where the data has increasing value beyond its primary use, right? So backup and recover, but then we can leverage those native format copies. Spectrum Protect Plus is available either on a bring your own license or a monthly subscription in the IBM cloud, other clouds over time. And so we enable enterprises to not only do the traditional backup and protection, but very simply, move that data to either a secondary or tertiary data center, if that's still a part of their backup architecture, or into the public cloud. And so the simplicity factor comes in, again, that it's agent lists. There's a catalog of where all your copies are, and you can reuse that data for whether it's DevOps or DevTest or analytics purposes. >> OK, so that's helpful. So what I'm trying to get to was sort of the enablers, maybe from a technology standpoint, because in the virtualization world, it was all about efficiency because you didn't have the underutilized physical resources anymore. >> Yep, right. >> All the servers utilized 10%. (chuckles) Well, I got rid of a lot of those physical servers, and the one job that needed that power was backup, so I needed a new way to approach it. What I'm hearing is, in this multi-cloud world, it's a focus on simplicity. I'm inferring from that, a cloud-like experience, maybe some other capabilities that you guys are-- >> Yeah, so. >> Doing away with. >> The containers are a progression. I mean, VMware came around to maximize your CPU and storage utilization. Containers provide yet another level of efficiency on top of that. They bring with them the need for changes in your data protection. And so we, at Think in March, we talked about our directions around container aware data protection and container aware snapshots. Most vendors will use snapshots and then volume level controls of how we've traditionally done backup. We have a progression, and we'll talk more about it later in the year, of how we do snapshots, again, that are container aware. They leverage our tools, such as Spectrum Copy Data Management, Spectrum Protect Plus, integrate with our arrays. But they'll bring the same level of capability that we've had traditionally in a virtualized environment to also support data protection in a container world. >> Well, it's an interesting landscape right now in data protection. >> Oh, it's awesome! There's so many new tools, and it's great to be able, (Dave chuckling) like we talked about earlier, to partner with Cisco around some of this as well. >> Great, Jeff, I wanna give you the final word, as if, for those that couldn't make it to the show, either share key conversation you're having, you're hearing from customers, or a big takeaway from the show that you'd like to share. >> Sure, yeah, we've had a lot of customers come up and wanna know, OK, well, how do you start, right? And we talked about, there are three primary adoption patterns, whether it's modernizing, and typically it will start with modernizing traditional workloads. 70% of private cloud usage is for that particular use case. Well, you can pretty quickly show them, then, the progression to, OK, they wanna be more agile. They wanna go cloud-native. From that private cloud infrastructure, you can do that, and then you can have a consistent way that you interact around services in the public cloud. And so that's what we've been talking to clients about. They wanted to know, how do I start with what I have, and then how do I get to this better future? And how do I leverage your tools and capabilities? And so whether that's with IBM systems components or what we do with our partnership with Cisco, we're showing them how we, collectively, can help them on that journey. >> All right, Jeff, I really appreciate all the updates. Dave, thanks so much for joining me for this segment. >> Yeah, thank you. >> We still have a full day here, three days wall-to-wall coverage of theCUBE, Cisco Live 2018. Thanks so much for watching. (techno musical flourish)