(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE covering Open Source Summit, North America 2017, brought to you by the Linux Foundation, and the Red Hat. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. Live here in Los Angeles, is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of the Open Source Summit, North America. I'm John Furrier, your host, with my cohost, Stu Miniman with Wikibon. Our next guest is Ross Turk, Director of Evangelism at Red Hat. Welcome to theCUBE, good to see you again. >> Good to see you. >> So, evangelizing is now going to be super more important as Open Source Summit, formerly called The Linux Con, Linux kernel. So, Linux is really now the foundation. So, now all these new products are emerging, hence the new name Open Source Summit. You guys are in the middle of it. >> Ross: Mm-hmm. >> What's the themes that you guys are pumping out there right now from an evangelist standpoint? Give me the order of operations in terms of priorities. >> Well, gosh, we're trying to tell stories about how people operate infrastructure in today's modern world, right, which is a lot about making sure that, you know, dealing with ephemeral infrastructure, dealing with containerized applications, and that sort of thing. It gives a lot more flexibility to people who are doing modern operations. It's about applications that spill over across multiple machines and doing so in a way that doesn't require a lot of heavy lifting or wiring things up by hand. So, there's this whole modern operations experience thing we talk about, but we also talk about a modern developer experience. What does it mean to build applications today? And, of course, you combine those together it turns into Dev Ops, right. But, the large companies still work in these two separate worlds. But, people are building technology differently than they ever did in the past, and they're deploying it differently than they did in the past. So, there's lots of stories that can come out of that. >> Well, let's start with the story that we love. Stu and I were talking about the server list at the beginning because you have the Dev Ops movement certainly is going mainstream. You're seeing a lot of enterprises looking at that as viable. Now, they're operationalizing it, and they need to have that industrial strength Red Hat, Linux. But, now Kubernetes and Servalist, the younger developers, they just want an infrastructure as code. >> That seems to be a very hot story here, and Kubernetes server list is kind of in the hallway conversations. How do you guys bring that to bear? >> Well, I think that what Red Hat does is we give an operating environment that can sit underneath all of it with Rail and everything else we build that is stable and secure and reliable. And, you need that in order to have all of this chaos happening above it with developers deploying microservices and moving things around, and demands changing and all these other things, you need to have something really stable and reliable underneath that, something that you know can be if the applications and virtual machines and containers aren't long running, what sits underneath of them is long running, and it still needs to be stable and reliable. So, a lot of the work we've been doing for the past 20 years around Linux Engineering, I think, contributes to making this stable environment for a modern developer. >> Yeah, Ross, one of the challenges in scaling is usually I've got to worry things like storage. You know, state is there, you know data gravity is something we need to be concerned about. It's great to say ephemeral and I want everything anywhere, and, I can put it in this cloud or use it in that application, but at the end of the day it's tough to build some of these pieces. How's Red Hat helping there as containerization and scale, how does that fit into kind of this storage discussion moving on? >> It's a real struggle right, because you can talk to people and they say oh, every single one of the microservices held over and they scale out, and all this, and they talk about this really elaborate infrastructure like well, where is all your data being stored? Oh, it's sitting in Oracle, you know, so you find this sort of like dissonance between how data is managed and how applications are managed. At Red Hat, we believe that storage should be another microservice alongside all the other microservices make up and application. So, that's why we put a lot of engineering effort into making things like Ceph and Red Hat Gluster Storage work well alongside Open Shift so that a developer can provision storage as needed without having to go to an ops person, and that when that storage gets provisioned it's in containers alongside other containers that are providing the other things that your application needs. >> Software defined storage was the answer, it's the Holy Grail. We've heard software defined data center. We've been covering this also in the VM world, heard an awful lot about that. But, that still is a key part of the software, and now you have hardware stacks, so IOT and Cloud are opening up these new use cases for enterprises where whoa, we actually kind of didn't test that hardware with that software, so it's kind of interesting dynamic because software defined is still super important. What's your view on software defined storage, in particular, is that an answer, is it stable, what's your thoughts? >> Well, I think it's an answer, but it depends on what the question is, just to be kind of-- >> What is software defined storage? Let's start with that one. >> Well, so, what is software defined storage? Software defined storage is, okay, so I'll say it in more like what it isn't. >> The traditional storage, traditional storage solutions get deployed as appliances, which are vertically integrated hardware and software solutions that are built to do one thing, and to do that one thing well. And, that one thing is to store data. They're kind of like big refrigerator-sized things that you bring into your data center with a forklift and it's a big oepration, and then they provide storage for any number of applications. What software defined storage does is it implements those same services and those same capabilities, but it does it entirely in software. So, instead of being this vertically integrated software, hardware solution, you end up with software that lets you build it on any hardware, and that hardware can be physical hardware so you can build a storage cluster made up of 1,000 bare metal servers, or you could build that same cluster on a thousand VMs inside of a public cloud. So, in making storage no longer a hardware problem, like it used to be, I mean fundamentally it's a hardware problem, you get down bits are stored somewhere, but, the management of storage is no longer a hardware concern, it's a software concern, now, and that means it's a little bit more flexible. You can containerize it. You can deploy it in the public cloud. You can deploy it in VMs. You can deploy it on bare metal. So, that's what software defined storage is doing is it's changing things around, but it requires different skills. >> Come on Ross, I want a storageless environment, can we get on that? >> A storageless environment? Sure, I guess. Storage has become somebody else's problem at that point. >> Absolutely, how about, how is containers changing that whole discussion? You know, it took us like a decade to kind of get storage working in a virtualized environment, networking seems to be really tackling the container piece, storage seems a little further behind, you know, what're you seeing some of the big challenges there and how are we looking to solve that? >> Well, here there's when you look at containers and storage, there are really two things to consider. The first is how do you make storage such that a containerized environment can consume it easily, right. This is what at Red Hat we call container ready. So, we call a storage solution container ready, what it means that your container platform knows how to consume it. Most storage is container ready, all it takes is a Kubernetes volume driver to be container ready, and that's one half of it, and that's really, really important. It's the same kind of thing we had to do with virtualization, making sure every hypervisor could talk to every storage system. Now, we're making sure every container platform can talk to every storage system. That's important, but it's only half the puzzle, 'cause the other half is now that you have storage as a software thing, a distributed software thing, you can actually deploy that storage inside the same containers that you're using, that are driving the demand for that storage. So, it's this kind of weird, you know, snake eating it's own tail thing where you as a developer, let's say I'm deploying an application, I need a database, I need a web server, blah, blah, and a bunch of other things, and I need a scale out storage system, I can deploy that in containers just alongside everything else, and it uses the local storage of each of the container hosts to build that shared storage that then is used to provide services to other containerized applications. So, it's the ability to have storage in containers Which is really strange. We call that container native storage. >> It's interesting the markets going pretty crazy, so if you kind of take the Dev Ops and say assume for a minute infrastructure is programmable. >> Mm-hmm. >> But, then you look at the developer action right now on the App side, we've seen all kinds of new stuff Apple has their announcement today with the new iPhone 8. We've been covering that on siliconangle.com. Forbes has got great stories as well. New AR kit, so augmented reality is a huge deal, virtual reality obviously still hyped up, is still promised, those are going to require new chips. That's going to require consumer behavior change, so, the developers are staring at a different market than worrying about provisioning storage, right. So, but, these are now new pressures. New hardware, new opportunities, as a developer, advocate, and evangelist, and an industry participant, and user, how do you look at that, and how is that impacting the developer market because Androids got good stuff coming down, too, not just Apple, Samsung? >> Ross: Yeah. >> It's all multimedia, I mean. >> Well, what's interesting about AR kit is that if you go just back five years that same capability required a very, very particular type of phone, you know, like the project Tango stuff required all these depth cameras and like connect style stuff to do the AR kit, and Apple was able to solve a lot of that in software just using two cameras, right, and in software. And, I think that's really-- >> John: On a phone? >> On a phone, on a phone no less, and I think what's amazing about that is all of the capabilities that we walk around with in our pocket now were really hard to get a long time ago. >> Well, this is interesting, your point, let's stay on this because this really illustrates the point. AR kit, for example is proving that the iPhone now is smart enough and with software, enough horsepower to do that kind of thing, but that's replicable across all devices now as an IOT device. The Internet of Things is going to be a freight train coming down the tracks, security, endpoint security, whether it's, I mean all kinds of coolness, but yet threats are there. So, software has to do all this, right. So, how's that going to impact the cloud game, your business, you guys you have to move faster on hardening things, be more organic on the innovation side, not business-wise, but technical strategy. >> Well, I think a lot of it is enabling developers to work more quickly and build features more quickly, also, educating developers on the security and privacy ramifications of the things that they build because it's really easy to just go out in front and advance and innovate and forget about all of that stuff. So, it's about changing developer culture so that you consider security and privacy first, as opposed to later. And, also, maybe you want to consider storage as well if you're talking about machine learning or IOT and all of these types of things, you're -- >> Videos, I mean this is video, software rendering. That's a storage nightmare. >> It's all got to live somewhere, and once you put it in that place where it lives, it's really hard to move it. So, this is a thing you want to plan from the very beginning. >> And, I think that's what's cool about AI, too, and self-driving cars it's a consumer, you know, flashy, coolness that can say hey, this is happening. I mean how fast is happening, but the developer is now bringing it to the businesses and say, okay, we don't have an AR virtual reality strategy for our retail, for instance, you potentially could be out of business. So, these are the kind of thoughts that are going at the C-level that now are going into what used to be IT, but all of IT, how do you handle this? This is an architectural question, so your thoughts on that, because that seems to be a conversation we see a lot. Architectural that's going to solve problems today, not foreclose future opportunities. >> Well, it's cultural, too, inside of the company, like everywhere inside of a company there used to be Internet teams in companies, remember. We used to be like oh, go talk to the Internet team because something's wrong with the Web or whatever, now, there's no Internet team, everybody's the Internet team, Every single team in an organization is thinking about how to leverage the Internet to make their job more effective. The same is going to be true for everything that we're talking about, you know. Security, interestingly enough, so many people always thought security was somebody else's problem. but just this week, we were reminded that it's everybody's problem, hundreds of millions of people's problem, security. So, I think that as these things kind of advance-- >> John: Security first, and privacy first is critical. >> It is absolutely critical, and there used to be, I mean, I think at some point maybe there won't be a security team inside of a company because everybody's going to be the security team, but it's like everybody's the Internet team now, and I always felt the same way about open source communities. I thought there would never, you know, always everybody-- >> Well, people are ruling their own security now. You have these LifeLock or whatever they call them, these services for a password protection because you can't trust even all these databases that are out there. You have block chain with immutability, yeah, certainly the wallets are not yet, but I mean certainly this is where it might be a future scenario. >> Yeah, and I think for all of these things agility is going to be key. The ability to go down a path a certain distance and realize whoa I've run into a privacy problem, back up a little bit, continue down another path. I think that the faster we can make the development process, I think the less risky we make going into all these new frontiers. >> Yeah, Ross, one of the things we've really liked watching the last kind of five years or so is storage turning into a discussion of data and how can we leverage that data, real-time data, you know, decisions at the edge, analytics, what's exciting you the most about kind of the storage world these days? >> Oh boy. Well, you know, I just spent about five years in the storage infrastructure world, so a lot of what kind of kept me going day and night was saving people money, making things faster, making things easier, but also, giving storage platforms that were elastic enough to handle all of this really interesting stuff that happens on top of them. So, there's all kinds of new big data stacks that I find particularly interesting, a lot of the real time analysis stuff like Apache Spark and things like that. There's so much going into visualization right now, as well, how you handle large amounts of time series data and that sort of thing. There's been a lot of advancements in exactly that. Personally, I'm really excited lately in all the data of this stuff, all the ways you can extract meaning from all this data, you know, the ways that you can give it a business context that allows you to make better decisions with it. >> Not a lot of data conversations here at this conference as is open source software, but I mean data I mean I've said and I wrote a blog post in 2008 Dave always, Dave Olantho always jokes with me because I always reference it, I said data is the new development kit, meaning data is going to be part of the software development model, and it actually is with big data, but, you're not hearing a lot of it here because most people are talking about their communities, their projects, but the role of data is fundamental at the edge. >> Ross: Absolutely. >> And, so, how is that going to change some of these conversations and can data be developed on, and is data now part of the software development life cycle that's coming to fruition in the new way. >> Interesting, I think that's an interesting observation that as we see sort of Dev and Ops coming together, right, the world of the operator and the world of the developer coming together, I think we'll probably, at some point, see the world of the developer come together with the world of the data scientist because as I kind of wrack my brain I'm thinking okay, what type of future developer wouldn't have to be dealing with large amounts of data wouldn't have to have that kind of skill to be able to deal with it. So, I think we're going to start to see more software developers getting more involved in big data, machine learning, data analytics, and things like that for sure. >> Well, either way, this open source growth that's coming is going to be exponential. Data is already there. I mean we have a joke in our office software is eating the world as Mark Andreasen would say years ago, but, data is eating software. So, in terms of how you look at it someone's eating somebody, but, this becomes interesting for the IOT developer, or the industrial developer. Those systems were never connected to IT in the past. It was like they ran their own stuff from their own terminals. >> And, there's this idea that everybody's heard that data has gravity, right. And, I actually was talking to somebody about this and they said, well, actually the data has inertia, and I'm like, no, that's not really it 'cause once it's moving it's not hard to stop it. The idea that data has gravity means that let's say I'm putting together this new IOT application, or whatever, I'm gathering data from a bunch of sensors or whatever, and I've got the data in that place. Now, having all that data in that place is more meaningful to me than most of the software that I wrote. You know, it's like that is the value, the kernel of the data is there, and data having gravity means that it's hard to move once it's in a certain place, but, it also means that it attracts workloads to it, right. So, it used to be that software was king, and software created data and managed data, and now data is king, and it brings software to it, I think. >> I totally agree with you, and I think they might even call this the open data summit soon, but it's beyond open source. Now, this is going to be great. They work hand in hand. Software and data are going to be great. Stu what's your thoughts on the role that data's not being talked much here? >> Yeah, John at Amazon weighed in last year. When we talked to Andy Jassy it was the customers were the flywheel, and I think data's going to be that next flywheel of really feeding into that data gravity discussion that you were having, Ross. You know, when Hadoop came out it was like oh, we're going to bring the code to the data. Well, we know if I'm going to have more data I'm going to have my data sources, I'm going to have third party data sources that I want to be able to work and interact with those, so, data absolutely huge opportunities there, and the companies that can leverage that and get more value out of it is going to be a-- >> Well, we already see it's a competitive advantage, no doubt, but it's the privacy issue still the big debate like we know in our immediate businesses. Look at Facebook, I've got a free App I get to see all my friends' photos, their vacations, everyone's living a great life on Facebook, but, then all of a sudden I give my data away for free for the privilege to use that App, but all the sudden they start injecting fake news at me. I don't want that anymore, and you're still making money off of my data, so that's interesting. Facebook makes money off of my data. >> Yeah, that's-- >> That's my contract with them. >> Yeah, If you ask what their asset is, one person might think it's traffic, you know, or eyeballs, but, I think it's data. >> So, they're using data, I might not like it, so that might be an opportunity for somebody else so your point Stu, so if you start thinking about it differently, data decisions are going to be an architectural challenge. >> Yeah, absolutely. I think enterprise architecture thinking, even today, you're seeing enterprise architects thinking more and more and more about data than they have in the past. >> Ross, what do you think about the show, final word in the segment, what's going on Open Source Summit, share with the folks that are watching? >> The vibe here, it's now a new name, but it's still the same game, multiple events come together. >> Yeah, multiple events together. I like Open Source Summit as a name. I think it's a good name. It's properly named for what's going on here. It's been an interesting experience for me because I've been in this community for a really long time. So, I come here and I run into all kinds of old friends, the hallway track's always a good track for me. The content is fantastic, but the hallway track is always really good, and I can't think of anywhere else where you can go and get this selection of people, right. You have people who're working on all layers of the problem, and they can all come together and talk. So, I don't know-- >> It's really a cross-fertilization, cross-pollination, whatever word you want to use. I think this event's going to be in the 30,000 pretty quickly. I mean this is going to be. Well, if you look at the growth, the numbers, you know, presented on stage, Jim Zemlon, was pointing out the growth, by 2026, 400 million libraries. I mean people still think that's underestimated. >> Yeah. >> So, that's a lot of growth. >> I think it could get there, and I think these folks organize great shows, so I look forward to seeing them scale up to 30,000. >> Ross, thanks for your commentary, appreciate the perspective, and the insight here on theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for joining us. This is theCUBE live coverage from Open Source Summit, North America. I'm John, for Stu Miniman, back with more after this short break. (upbeat music)

from the noise it's the cube covering vmworld 2015 brought to you by VM world and its ecosystem sponsors now your host Stu minimun and Brian Grace Lee Patrick Shanna's on for a member of the technical staff for dr. Patrick saw you at the end of our spring tour and now you're here at the you know picking up the fall tour so thank you for joining us again hey thanks for having me alright so I mean last year you know containers with VMware I mean was a big discussion we kind of all had that you've got some background with Microsoft right and VMware yeah and VMware so you know there was kind of a joke of you know oh the old Microsoft you know extend embrace and we'll see how we go from there but you know it's been a year later so can you give us a little bit of the update of kind of you know how docker in VMware how do you guys see each other I could evm where is a great partner you so the announcement this morning VMware embrace containers so I'm super excited to be here some of the announcements that were made this morning is now this year is a control plane for containers there's this notion of native containers in this year one of the things that excites me the most is their project bonville that they talked about this morning it's actually been made by one of my friends on the ex-colleagues banchory and what they're doing in there that they are implemented the back end for the darker engine in terms of these fear primitives so when you're creating images it creates a set of vmdk layers and when you're creating when you want to create a container the isolation primitives are the ones of VMS as opposed to linux containers all right so that's a very good way of running container yes sir patrick last time we're in the cube you did a great job of helping us you know kind of walk the stack I don't know if you saw we actually did a research piece kind of layering the whole stack so here the announcement you mentioned this morning is the vSphere integrated containers and they've got photon and they've got Bonneville on and let me ask you am I looking at this right that we're VMware I mean VMware very much down at the infrastructure level yeah so when they build that photon layer you know whether they call it just enough virtualization as Kate kolbert said this morning when I heard him speak um but dr. sits on top of that am I getting that right yeah it's exactly right and actually one of my reasons for joining VMware I think four years ago was for them to go up stack and at that time it was with cloud foundry and I would argue that maybe with cloud foundry we were a little bit too much up stack compared to my vm worries at the bottom when I present the whole stack usually I talk about like the new hardware the new hardware today is your cloud provider it's a Amazon Microsoft Google and then the virtualization with VMware so that's the new hardware and that's where vmware is very strong so they manage networking storage and compute on top of that you have the OS layer and what really got me interested into moving to darker is that the whole landscape just changed when containers appear two years ago and the whole industry is reorganizing around that so what happened at the OS layer that all the OS providers starting with chorus initially who studied that friend started doing minimal release of their OS that are just designed to run containers so coral I started that trend but then very quickly read had followed with project atomic and then we went to with winter core the most interesting to me is Ranchero s where they run docker for everything so they have two darker system darker and userland occur and then VMware came out with photon I think twas last June or something like that and today I think they have a preview to of that coming out on top of that you have ducker so the rocker engine running and on top of the darker engine you have orchestration platforms and these are the ones that are replacing what used to be past platform as a service and when I was at Google I was doing google appengine at vmware i was doing cloud foundry now you see cloud foundry reinventing itself as a control plane for containers and so one of the announcement that excited me most in the keynote this morning is that now Cloud Foundry is running with photon they have an integrated distribution so finally vmware is going up stack with its own stack like vSphere at the bottom then on top of that you have photon and then on top of that you have cloud foundry yeah so really exciting times yeah I think for me one of the things that I always hear that feels like it's confusing or off the markets a lot of people want to kind of get into this containers replaces VMs or VMs versus container debate and as if they're both sort of infrastructure layer which if you think about them is something that holds that I could see you make the mistake but but Dockers is something that developers love they love to package their applications they love this idea of right on my laptop push it somewhere do you find that confusion a lot in the marketplace I mean oh yeah I find that a lot and I think it's tied to the rise of DevOps it really in the past five years the this new movement called DevOps like really took off and DevOps is a lot about people and processes a little bit about products as well and I think when docker appeared it was the right level of abstraction for DevOps to happen like the right packaging construct where developers can put all their dependencies in a container and then ups have all the right knobs to tweak for putting that in production but it's the same thing that you put in production that you have on your developer machine so to me a lot of the confusion assoc d2 docker is tied to that because it's a technology that you use both by developers and by ops I think vmware is doing a really good job of giving up so kind of control they need to put darker in production yeah so we're here at vmworld a lot of talk about vmware in containers you guys doing a ton of stuff with Microsoft like yeah talk a little bit about because you know for a long time people like to say what containers have been along for on for a long time Linux containers and but but windows and microsoft adopting this like what's going on there yeah so the partnership with Microsoft is super exciting so after a VMware I actually moved to Microsoft and at Microsoft my role was to help all the darker partners to get onto Azure and since I join I've seen all the work that happened with microsoft recently we've done tons of stuff we end many many different integration points to me the most important one is finally we have native windows containers that shipped with a Windows Server tv3 like literally I think two weeks ago so that's something that was pre announced that dark on and my croissan'wich came onstage with the ducati sure to do a demo now you can run it on Azure yourself what's exciting there is that the concepts that are at the heart of docker are based on using c groups and name spaces which are linux kernel features for isolation of your workloads the thing is these isolation primitive similar ones existed in windows server and especially the version of Windows Server that was running within Microsoft data center for to power Bing and things like that to have denser workloads in the data center where the Microsoft team has done is that they re implemented the darker back end in terms of windows containers primitives and so now you can create Windows net application running on windows server in windows native containers the beauty of it if you're a developer especially an enterprise developer in the enterprise basically you have half and half Java and.net very often like developers go from one to the other or they are developers who do Java others doing dotnet they have completely different tool chains now with darker they have a single tool chain that they can use to build a multi container application that use different technologies behind the scene so finally developers can use the best tools for the father father job yep so pattern one of the things we look at every year here at vmworld is how are we doing it kind of fixing the things that broke when virtualization went into both storage and networking yeah and it was big discussion point at dr. Khan this year you put up a beta of docker networking yep storage I'd say is even a little bit you know further behind there so you know what's the latest on how you guys think of that you know where are we along that maturity curve of you know storage and networking for for containers so I'm really glad you asked that because when i joined occur in march that was my first project to kick-start a project to do darker extensibility and the two extension points that we created based on ecosystem and customer demands were about storage and networking and so I'd acha kaun in June we announced to extension points for dr. a plug-in system one for networking and one for volumes and what I really love about what happened at vmworld today this morning in the keynote is that VMware implemented a networking plug-in based on NSX as well as a volume plug inning in collaboration with a cluster HQ who had built flutter and help us create that extension point four volumes so finally one of the big issues with containers is that when you were deploying it in a multi host set up especially with swarm and compose when you're stunning to the orchestration before June there was no way to to move one container when state full container with data to another machine with a volume plug-in now you can do that and with the networking aspect now you can refer to containers by instead of like doing links and there were some complicated ways to do that now you can use either the native networking driver that comes with ducker but as usual we use the philosophy of batteries included but replaceable and so you can plug networking plug-in coming from nsx if you're using this fear under the hood yeah so still we're we're going to be doing a panel tomorrow on on containers one of the things I want to dig into we're gonna have intel on the show and tells doing some neat things where they're they're calling it clear containers but in essence it's it's kind of the equivalent for the vm we're proud of you know VT technology right hardware isolation of processes talk about just what's the potential of that for containers ability to better leverage hardware to make containers a it's faster and yeah so that aspect of internal research is super exciting and it corroborates some of the things i see happening in the marketplace right now especially on the research side where you have both like Linux containers became super successful in the past two years now that we're going in production there will be lots of different type of isolation technologies applied to containers and so one of the first one I heard about West project banville where it's implemented in terms of this year primitives another one is the clear container by Intel another one that I heard about that that came through the oci project that will talk about that new standard that we announced a cocoon is called is called things of run V and it's based on the hyper SH container technology based on virtualization so I see more and more people using virtualization as an implementation for isolation in containers yeah talk about what's going on with run see so you know six months ago it was we had this you know are we gonna have diverging container standards you guys stood up with core OS and 20 other companies and said we're no we're going to have one standard what's going on with with oci and run c and that thing that's been super exciting so that was my second project that docker we announced it at Daka Connie you that we had a 20 of the biggest companies in the industry joining to create a standard container especially core OS joining as well as Google and Amazon and everybody and what blew my mind is that we're what were free month later less than three months later the team right now is preparing a first draft of the spec for September they've been working actively all throughout the summer we put out we started working on the spec just after dark on we had the darker contributor summit and the the working group for OC I was the largest we had like 15 people from different companies starting to iterate on the spec they continued throughout the summer and now we have something that's close to a first draft of the spec with a reference implementation that's runs in one of the most interesting development that happens there and that really speaks to the power of open source and open stone is is that once the specs started to mature we started to have already a second reference a second implementation of the spec that's called rungy that's been built by the hyper SH project based on virtualization and then why way contributed a test suite for compliance of the of the spec so that spec is advancing really fast yeah so I was having a conversation with Jim's emmalin who runs the Linux Foundation II week or so ago at linux con and we asked him we said you know it's hard because you love them all like your kids do you have a favorite project he said yeah no question oci is my favorite project right now just because of the promise of portability the sort of write once run anywhere so you're working on it it's an important product the Linux domain is really looking at you guys to make this work and and drive that portability yeah and the Linux Foundation has done a really great job at coordinating the work of all the maintainer Xin there it's really a neutral ground where we can advance so that all of us can innovate on top of it now a lot of the competition is happening at the upper layer of the stack like oci I think we all agree on the semantics of what a container runtime should be now at the higher level there are lots of discussions about how the orchestration should be done and there you have 15 different projects you have swarmed from darker this mess those this coup banaras which is very opinionated and one of the other development this summer is that Google and many others including us dr. with part of that announced an another foundation called the CNC F the cloud native computing foundation where the goal there is to create reference tax for orchestration that can interoperate together pretty much along the same line of the work that darker did with a mesosphere for having a swarm plugin for mezclas so Patrick boy there's been so much movement in this space we talked multiple foundations a lot going on one of the things we came out of dr. Khan that we were just I guess a little concerned about is how many people actually run an import and we know you know I mean live through the the VMware lived through the Linux you know adoption phases so is it fair to kind of gauge that piece of it you know what do you see when you know you're talking to the practitioners and the you pick users out there as to you know how should we be measuring you know that's a naturally occurring production yeah so I would say it's maturing a lot we see more and more users putting darker in production there are lots of holes still in the offering that needs to be filled and that's why I'm pretty excited to see VMware stepping in and saying hey for production use we have a lot of technology that you can use to put that in production some of the things that we've seen is a like networking and volumes so that was really needed now that there are lots of plugins I hope that people will have an easier time putting that into production the agreement on what orchestration should be so people are still asking a lot of question about which orchestrator should i use for my containers in production and so I've seen so people using measures others using coronary some are trying swarm there's still lots of questions out there about what the right stack should look like and I would say as usual in software project it kind of depends on what you're running well the one thing that concerns me and it's always there's so many good things going on around docker I've been doing some research over the last couple of months looking at all the different platforms so everything from you know dr. native to what hoshi corp is doing to what openshift is doing and we were we talkin to Adrian Cockroft he said you know dockers reached sort of plaid in terms of speed it moves so fast you guys are releasing some every two months how do you deal with that because you deal with the ecosystem how do they deal with the fact that you're now part of their core platform but you're releasing new stuff every two months I mean are we going to get into something where it's like well it's it's one dot six and two dot one and how do you deal with that yeah so ducker itself as a company is maturing addict Akane you one of the big things that we announced is a darker trusted registry and aqus yes so we have a version of docker that is supported where we're going to do backwards a porting of patches so for people who really want to run it in production we have an offering that supported for them so that they are not obliged to run on the tape every time some of the startups that I've seen out there like large startups with a more in the consumer space who have larger data center and a pretty mature ops team they some of them are running on tip or on the latest version of darker but in the enterprise you can assume that like the adoption of new versions will be slower and so we have that like support offering for for all the versions of darker now the darker open source project is continuing to fire I like to create lots of things and there are lots of poor request the project is more successful than ever I think in the last like recently the most prolific contributor was Microsoft in the project there are lots of torrid has a huge contributor that Google as well is sending lots of pull requests so there are not lots of new features coming with each new release but at the same time we're really working on a platform that everybody is going to use and that needs to mature that's why you have that really fast pace of innovation in that space yeah so I mean Patrick here you're you're in the weeds of some of this so the other one that comes up quite a bit of courses security so even just this last week there's a big back and forth on Twitter and a couple of blog posts talking about it you know what what your thought is to how how we should talk about kind of the maturity and where we're going with the container security discussion yeah so as you guess container security is one of our big focus abductor because that's one of the things that people are expecting from a platform especially to run in production my colleague yoga Monica did lots of blog posts recently about how to improve your security in production security is not only a factor of the software itself but on the all the processes that you put in place around it and basically around darker you have to put in place with some kind of processes you have for operating systems like getting the latest release of the official images I don't know if you saw that there's been a blog post like talking where they looked randomly at all the images in docker hub and evaluating them for security issues one of the things that they didn't look at is that the latest releases of operating systems that we have in there in blocker images are just tracking the upstream releases and people who have sound security practices internally I'll just pulling these latest releases all right last question I have for you Patrick it's it easy for people to come I come in here and be like oh well you know biggest threat to vmware is is docker what what I love talking to you is you know this is a real small community I over the last year a lot of former VMware people now working over a doctor and not that they're unhappy with VMware and you know Microsoft is is in the mix you know so I mean this whole community is pulling together and doing a lot of work a lot of contribution you know what do you see out there from the technology community to help mature this whole space yeah I'd say both VMware and Microsoft at the operating system an infrastructure level as well as Google at the orchestration layer VMware a red hat at the operating system layer like everybody is trying to make darker a sound platform to run in production so what I see in all corners is just darker getting solidified and getting part of most people's production infrastructure with all these efforts on the security and stability and processes as well as the development processes there are lots of innovation in the terms of CI CD integration with darker no no she saw the work that cloudbees has been doing for integrating jenkins with darker so doctor is both the platform for apps and for devs and in that in that qualification that the ecosystem is very broad both on the dev tools side as well as on the ops and platform side all right well Patrick unfortunately at a time is always great chatting with you thank you so much for joining us we'll be back with lots more coverage here from being real 2015 and thank you for watching you inseam six months you