(upbeat music) >> Okay, we're back here in theCUBE, this is day three of our coverage right here in the middle of all the action of Cloud City at Mobile World Congress. This is the hit of the entire show in Barcelona, not only in person, but out on the interwebs virtually, this is a hybrid event. This is back to real life, and theCUBE is here. I'm John Furrier and Dave Vellante and DR is here, Danielle Royston. >> Totally. >> Welcome back to theCUBE for the fourth time now at the anchor desk, coming back, we love you. >> Well, it's been a busy day, it's been a busy week. It's been an awesome week. >> John: Feeling good? >> Oh my God. >> You made the call. >> I've made the call. >> You did on your podcast what, months ago. >> Yeah, right? >> You made the call. >> Made the call. >> You're on the right side of history. >> Right, and people were like, it's going to be canceled. COVID won't be handled, blahbity blah. >> She's crazy. >> Nope, I was just crazy, I'm okay with that, right? >> Crazy good. >> Right, I'm like I'm forward looking in a lot of ways. And we were looking towards June and we're like, I think this is going to be the first event back. >> You know, the crazy ones commercial that Apple ran is one of the best commercials of all time. You can't ignore the crazy ones in a good way. You can't ignore what you're doing. And I think to me, what I'm so excited about is cause we've been covering cloud we're cloud bigots, we love the cloud, public cloud. We've been on that train from day one. But when you hear the interviews we did here in theCUBE and interviews that we talked about with the top people, Google, Amazon Web Services. We're talking about the top people, both technology leaders like Bill Vass and the people who run the telecom verticals like Alfonzo, Adolfo, I mean, Hernandez. We had Google's top networking executive, we had their industry leader and the telecom, Microsoft and the Silicon all are validating, and it's like, surround sound to what you're saying here, and it cannot be ignored. >> I mean, we are coming to a big moment in Telco, right? And I mean, I've been saying it's coming. I called 2021, the year of Public Cloud and Telco. It helped that Erickson bailed. So thank you, Erickson people. >> It was a gift. >> It was a gift. >> It was. >> It really was a gift. And it was not just for me, but I think also for the vendors in the booth, I mean, we have a Cloud City army, right? Here we go, let's start marching, and it's awesome. >> He reminds me of that baseball player that took a break, cause he had a hangover and, Cal Ripkin. >> Cal Ripkin? >> Yeah, what was that guy's name? >> Did that really happen? >> Yeah, he took a break and uh- >> New guy stepped in. >> Yeah, and so well, not Cal Ripkin. >> No, no, so before, you want to know, who was it, Lou Gehrig? >> Lou Gehrig, yeah, Lou Gehrig. >> Right, so, Lou Gehrig was nobody, and we can't remember the guy's name, nobody knows the guy's name, what was that guy's name? Nobody knows, oh, there's Lou Gehrig, he got hurt. He sat out and Lou Gehrig replaced him and never hear of him again. >> Danielle: Love it, I'll take that. >> Never, never missed a game for his entire career. So again, this is what Erickson did, they just okay, take a break. >> Yeah, but I mean, it's been great again. I had a great day yesterday, my keynote was delivered. Things are going well with the booth, we had Jon Bon Jovi. I mean, that was just epic and it was acoustic and it was right after lockdown. I think everyone was really excited to be there. But I was talking to a vendor that said we'd been able to accomplish in three days, what normally it would take three years from a sales funnel perspective. I mean, that's big and that's not me. That's not my organization. That's other organizations that are benefiting from this energy. Oh, it's awesome. >> The post isolation economy has become a living metaphor for transformation, and I've been trying to sort of grok and put the pieces together as to how this thing progresses in my interview with Portal One in particular really brought it into focus for me, anyway, I'd love to get your thoughts. One of the things we haven't talked much about is public policy, and I think about all the time, all the discussion in the United States about infrastructure, this is critical infrastructure, right? And the spectrum is a country like South Africa saying, come on in, we want to open up. We want to innovate, to me, that's the model for these tier two and tier three Telcos that are just going to disrupt the big guys, whereas, maybe China's maybe on the other end of the spectrum, very controlling, but it's the former that is going to adopt the cloud sooner, and it's going to completely transform the next decade. >> Yeah, I think this is a great technology for a smaller challenge or CSP that still is a large successful company to challenge the incumbents that are, they are dinosaurs too, they move a little bit slow, and maybe if you're a little bit faster, quicker dinosaur you'll survive longer, maybe you'll be able to transform and, and a public cloud enables that. And I think, you know I'm playing the long game here, right? Is public cloud already for every Telco in every corner of the world, no. And there's a couple of things that are barriers to that. We don't really talk about the downsides, and so maybe we sort of wrap up with- there are challenges and acknowledge there are challenges, you know, in some cases their data regulations and issues, right? And you can't right? There's not a hyperscaler in your country, right? And so you're having a little bit of challenges, but you trend this out over 10 years and then pace it with the hyperscalers that are building new data centers. They're each at 25 plus each, you know, plus or minus a few, right? They're marching along, and you trend this out over 10 years, I think one of two things happened, your data regulations are eased or a hyperscaler appears in a place you can use it, and those points converge and hopefully the software's there, and that's my effort and (claps) yeah. >> Dave: You know what's an interesting trend, DR and John, that is maybe a harbinger to this, is you just mentioned something. If the hyperscalers might not have a presence in, in a country, you know what they're doing? And our data shows this, I do that weekly series breaking analysis and the data Openstack was popping up. Like where does OpenStack come from, well, guess what, when you cut the data, it was Telcos using open source to build clouds in regions where there was no hyperscalers. >> It's a gap filler. >> Yeah, it's a gap filler, it's a bandaid. >> But I think this is where, like. outpost is such a great idea, right? Like getting outposts, and I think Microsoft has the ability to do this as well, Google less so, right? They're not providing the staff, they're doing Anthos. So you're still managing this, the rack, but they're giving you the ability to tap into their services. But I was talking to a CTO in Bolivia. He was like, we have data privacy issues in our country. There's no hyperscaler, not sure Bolivia is like next on the list for AWS, right? But he's like, I'm going to build my own public cloud. And I'm like why would you do that when you can just use outposts? And then when your data regulations release, where they get to Bolivia, you can switch and you're on the stack, and you're ready to go. I think that's what you should do. You should totally do that. >> John: Yeah, one of the things that's come up on here in the interviews, in theCUBE and here, the show is that there are risk takers and innovators and there's operators. And this has been the consistent theme around, yeah, the on-premises world you mentioned this regulation reasons, and or some workflows just have to be on premise for security reasons, whatever, that's the corner case. But the operating model of the technology architecture is shifted. And that reality, I don't think is debatable, so I find it, I got to ask you this because I'm really curious. I know you get a lot of people staring at ya, oh the public cloud's just a hosting, but why aren't people getting this architectural shift? I mean, you mentioned outpost and wavelength, which Amazon has, is a game changer. It's Amazon cloud at the hub. >> Yeah, at the edge. >> Okay, that's a low latency, again, low-hanging fruit applications, real buys, whatnot. I mean, that's an architectural dot that's been connected. Why are people getting it. >> In our industry, I think it is a lot of not invented here syndrome, right? And that's a very sort of nineties thought and I have been advocating stand on the shoulders of the greatest technologists in the world, right, and you know, there's, there is a geopolitical US thing, I think we lived through a presidency that had a sort of nationalistic approach and a lot of those conversations pop up, but I've also looked to these guys and I'm like, you're still, you still have your Huawei kit installed. And there's concerns with that too. So, and you picked it because of cost, and it's really hard to switch off of, so give me a break with your public cloud USA stuff, right? You can use it, you're just making excuses, you're just afraid. What are you afraid of, the HR implications? Let's talk about that, right? And the minute I take it there, conversation changes. >> Yeah, I talked to Teresa Carlson when she was running the public sector at AWS, she's now president of Splunk. I call her a Renaissance woman. She's been a great leader and public sector for this weird little pocket of AWS where it's a guess a sales division, but it's still its own company. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> And she's, did the CIA deal, the DOD, and the public sector partnerships are now private, a lot more private relationships, So it's not like just governments, you mentioned government and national security, and these things, you started to see the ecosystem not, not just be about companies, >> Danielle: Yeah. >> Government and private sector. So this whole vibe of the telecom being regulated, unregulated, unbundled is an interesting kind of theory. What's your thoughts and reactions to this, kind of this, melting pot of ecosystem change and evolution? >> Danielle: Yeah, I mean. I think there's a very nationalistic approach by the Telcos, right? They sort of think about the countries that they operate in. There's a couple of groups that go across multiple countries, but can there be a global Telco? Can that happen, right? Just like we say, you were saying it earlier, Netflix, right? You can say Netflix, UK. Right, and so can we have a global Telco, right. That is challenging on a lot of different levels. But think about that in a public cloud start to enable that idea, right? Elon Musk is going to get to Mars. You need a planetary level Telco. And I can, I think that day is, I mean, I don't think it's tomorrow, but I think that's like 10, 20 years away. >> Dave: You're done, we're going to see it start this decade, it's already starting. We're going to see the fruits of that dividend. >> Danielle: Yeah, it's crazy. >> I've got to ask you, you're a student of the industry and you get so much experience, it's great to have you on theCUBE and chat about, riff about these things, but, the classic who's ready for disruption question comes up, and I think there's no doubt that the Telcos as an industry has been slow moving and the role and the importance has changed. People need the need to have the internet access they need to access. >> Yeah. >> So, and you've got the edge, now applications are now running on it, since the iPhone 14 years ago, as you pointed out, people now are interested in how packets move. That's fast whether it's a doctor or an emergency worker or someone. >> Danielle: What we have done in 2020 without the internet and broadband and our mobile phones, I mean? >> You know, I think about 1920 when the Spanish flu pandemic hit a hundred years ago, those guys did not have mobile phones and they must have been bored, right? I mean, what are you going to do, right? And so, yeah I think last year really moved a lot of thinking forward in this respect, so. >> Yeah, it's always like that, that animal out in the Serengeti that gets taken down, you know, by the cheetah or the lion. How do know when someone is going to be disrupted What's the, what's the tell sign in your mind, you look at the Telco landscape. What is someone waiting to be disrupted or replaced like? >> You know what they're ostriches, how do you say that word, right? They stick their head in the sand. Like I don't want to talk about it, la la la, I don't want to, I don't want to think about it. You know, they bring up all these like roadblocks, and I'm like, okay, I'm going to come visit you in another six months to a year, and let's see what happens when the guys that are moving fast that are open-minded to this, and it's, I mean, when you start to use the public cloud, you don't, like, turn it on overnight. You start experimenting, right? You start, you take an application that is non-threatening. You have, I mean, these guys are running thousands of apps inside their data centers. Pick some boring ones, pick some old ones that no one likes, and move that to the public cloud, play with it. Right, I'm not talking about moving a whole network overnight tomorrow. You got to learn, you have no, I mean, very little talent in the Telco that know how to program against the AWS stack. Start hiring, start doing it, and you're going to start to learn about the compensation, and I used to do compensation, right? I spent a lot of time in HR, right? The compensation points and structures, they compare AWS and Google, versus a Telco. Do you want Telco stock? Do you want Google stock? >> Dave: Right, where do you want to go? >> Right, right? like that's going to challenge the HR organization in terms of compensate. How do we compensate our people when they're learning these new valuable skills? >> When you think about disruption, you know, the master or the professor of disruption, Clay Christensen, one of the best lectures he ever gave was who at Cambridge, and he gave a lecture on the steel industry, and he was describing it, it was like four layers of value in the steel industry, the value chain, it started with rebar, like the lowest end, right? >> Danielle: Yeah yeah. >> And the Telco's actually the opposite, so that, you know, when, when the international companies came in, they went after rebar, and the higher end steel companies said, nah, let them have it, that's the low margin stuff. And then eventually, uh, when they got up to the high end. >> Danielle: It was over, yeah. >> The Telcos are the opposite. They're like, the, you know, in the, in the conductivity and they're hanging on to that because it's so big, but all the high value stuff, it's already gone to the, over the top players, right. >> It's being eaten away, and I'm like, what is going to wake you guys up to realize those are your competitors, that's where the battle is, right? >> John: That's really where the value is. >> The battle of the bastards, you're there by yourself, like "Game of Thrones" and they're coming at you. >> John: You need a dragon. >> What are you doing about it? >> John: I need a dragon to compete in this market. Riding a dragon would be a good strategy. >> I know, I was just watching. Cause I have a podcast, I have a podcast called "Telco In 20" and we always put like little nuggets in the show notes, I personally reviewed them, I was just reviewing the one for the keynote that we're putting out, and I had a dragon in my keynote, right? It was a really great moment, it was really fun to do, but there's, I don't know if you guys are "Game of Thrones" fans. >> Yeah. >> Sure. >> Right, but there's a great moment when Daenerys gets her dragons, the baby dragons, and she takes over the Unsullied Army, right? And it's just this, right? Like all of a sudden the tables turn in an instant where she has nothing, and she's like on her quest, right. I'm on a quest. >> Dave: Comes out of the fire. >> Right, comes out of the fire, the unburnt, right? She has her dragons, right? She has them hatch. She takes over the Unsullied Army, right? Slaves, it starts her march, right? And I'm like, we're putting that clip into the show notes because I think that's where we are. I think I've hatched some dragons, right? The Cloud City army, let's go, let's go take on Telco. >> John: Well, I mean, this to me. >> Easy. >> It definitely have made, made it happen because I heard many people talking about cloud, this is turning into a cloud show. The question is, when does this going to be a cloud show? That's just Cloud City, it's a big section of the show. I mean, all the big players are behind it. >> Danielle: Yeah, yeah. >> Amazon Web Services, Google Azure, Ecosystem, startups, thinking differently, but everyone's agreeing why aren't we doing this? >> I think, like I said, I mean, people are like, you're such a visionary, and how did, why do you think this will work, I'm like, it's worked in every other industry. Am I really that visionary, and like, these are the three best tech companies in the world, like, are, are you kidding me? And so I think we've shown the momentum here. I think we're looking forward to 2022, you know? And that we see 2022, you got to start planning this the minute we get back, right? Like I wouldn't recommend doing this in a hundred days again, that was a very painful, but you know, February, I was, there's a sign inside NWC, February 28th. Right, we're talking seven months. You got to get going now. >> John: Let's get on the phone. >> With Telco, I mean, I think you're right on. I mean, you know, remember Skype, in the early days, right? >> Danielle: Yeah, yeah. >> It wasn't regional. It was just, plug into the internet. >> Danielle: It was just Skype, it was just WhatsApp. >> Well this is a great location, if you can get a shot guys of the people behind us, I don't know if you can, if you're watching check out the scene here, It's winding down, a lot of people having happy hour. Now this is a social construct here at Cloud City, not only is it chock full of information, reporting that we're doing and getting all the data and with the presentations on the main stage, with Adam and the studio and the team, this is a place where people are meeting and there's deals being done face to face, intimate relationships, the best of the best are here, they make the trek. So there's been a successful formula. Of course theCUBE is in the middle of all the action, which we love, we're psyched to be back. I want to thank you personally, while we have you on stage here. >> I want to thank you guys, and the crew, the crew has been amazing, turning out videos on short order. We have all these crews in different cities, it's, our own show has been virtual. You know, Adam's in Bristol, right? We're here, this was an experiment, we talked about this a hundred days ago, 90 days ago. Could we get theCUBE there, do the show but also theCUBE. >> You are a visionary, you said made for TV hybrid event with your team, produce television shows, theCUBE, we're digital, we love you guys, great alignment, but it's magical because the content doesn't end here, the show might end, they might break down the beautiful plants and the exhibits, but the community is going to continue, the content and the conversations. >> Yeah. >> So, we were looking forward to it and- >> I'm super glad, super glad we did this. >> Awesome, well, any final moments that you would like to share in the last two minutes we have, favorite moments, observations, funny things that have happened to you, weird things that have happened to you, share something that people might not know, or a favorite moment? >> I think, I don't know that people know, we have a 3D printer in the coffee shops, and so you can upload any picture and they're 3d printing, coffee art, right? So I've been seeing lots of social posts around people uploading their, their logos and things like that. I think Jon Bon Jovi, he was super thankful to be back. He thanked me personally two different times of like, I'm just glad to be out in front of people. And I think just even just the people walking around, thank you for being brave, thank you for coming back. You've helped Barcelona and we're happy to be together. Even if it is with masks, it's hard to do business with masks on, everyone's happy and psyched. >> John: Well the one thing that people cannot do relative to you is they cannot ignore you. You are making a great big wave. >> Danielle: I shout pretty loud, It's kind of hard to ignore me. >> You're making a great big wave, you're on the right side, we believe, of history, public cloud is driving the bus down main street of Cloud City, and if people don't get out of the way, they will be under the bus. >> I'm, like I said, in my keynote, it's go time let's do it. >> Okay. Thank you so much for all your attention and mission behind the cloud and the success. >> Danielle: We'll do it again. We're going to do it again soon. >> After Togi's a hundred million dollar investment, you're the CEO of Togi that, let's follow that progress, and of course, Telco DR, Danielle Royston, the digital revolution. Thanks for coming on with you. >> Thank you guys, it was super fun. >> This is theCUBE I'm John Furrier with Dave Vallante, we're going to send it back to Adam in the studio. Thanks, the team here. >> Woo! (audience applauding) >> I want to thank the team, everyone here, Adam is great, Chloe. >> Great working with you guys. >> Awesome, and what a great crew. >> So great. >> Thank you everybody. That's it for theCUBE, here on the last day, Wednesday of theCUBE, stay tuned for tomorrow more action on the main stage, here in Cloud City. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Hey, we're back here in theCube. This is day three of our coverage right here in the middle of all the action of Cloud City at Mobile World Congress. This is the hit of the entire show in Barcelona, not only in person, but out on the interwebs virtually. This is a hybrid event. This is back to real life, and theCube is here. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante and D. R. is here, Danielle Royston. >> Totally. >> Welcome back to theCube for fourth time. now at the anchor desk, coming back. >> I don't know. It's been a busy day. It's been a busy week. It's been an awesome week. >> Dave: Feeling good? >> Oh, my god. >> You made the call. >> I made the call. You finished your podcast, what months ago? >> Yeah. >> Made the call. >> Made the call. You're on the right side of history. >> Right? And people were like, "It's going to be canceled. COVID won't be handled." Blahbity blah. >> She's crazy. >> And I'm like, nope. She's crazy. I'm okay with that. Right? But I'm like... >> Crazy good. >> Right, I'm like, I'm forward-looking in a lot of ways. And we were looking towards June, and we're like, "I think this is going to be the first event back. We're going to be able to do it." >> You know, the crazy one's commercial that Apple ran, probably one of the best commercials of all time. You can't ignore the crazy ones in a good way. You can't ignore what you're doing. And I think to me, what I'm so excited about is, 'cause we've been covering cloud. We're cloud bigots. We love the cloud, public cloud. We've been on that train from day one. But when you hear the interviews we did here on theCube and interviews that we talked about with the top people, Google, Amazon Web Services. We're talking about the top people, both technology leaders like Bill Vass and the people who run the Telecom Verticals like Alf, Alfonzo. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> Adolfo, I mean, Hernandez. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> We had Google's top networking executive. We had their industry leader in the telecom, Microsoft, and the Silicon. All are validating, and it's like surround sound to what you're saying here. And it cannot be ignored. >> I mean, we are coming to a big moment in Telco, right? And I mean, I've been saying that it's coming. I called 2021, the year of public cloud and Telco. It helped that Ericcson bailed. So thank you, Ericcson people. >> Dave: It was a gift. >> It was a gift. >> John: It really was. >> It really was a gift. And it was not just for me, but I think also for the vendors in the booth. I mean, we have a Cloud City army, right? Here we go. Let's start marching. And it's awesome. >> He reminds me of that baseball player that took a break 'cause he had a hangover and Cal Ripken. >> Cal Ripken, right, yeah, yeah. What was that guy's name? >> Did it really happen? >> Yeah, he took a break and... >> The new guy stepped in? >> Yeah, and so we'll go to Cal Ripken. >> No, no, so before it was it? Lou Gehrig. >> Lou Gehrig, yeah. >> Right, so Lou Gehrig was nobody. And we can't remember the guy's name. Nobody knows the guy's name. >> Danielle: Yeah, yeah. >> What was that guy's name? Nobody knows. Oh, 'cause Lou Garrett, he got hurt. >> Danielle: And Lou Gehrig stepped in. >> He sat out, and Lou Gehrig replaced him. >> Danielle: Love it. >> And never heard of him again. >> Danielle: I'll take that. >> Never missed a game. Never missed a game for his entire career. So again, this is what Ericcson did. They just okay, take a break and... >> But I mean, it's been great. Again, I had a great day yesterday. My keynote was delivered. Things are going well with the booth. We had Jon Bon Jovi. I mean, that was just epic, and it was acoustic, and it was right after lockdown. I think everyone was really excited to be there. But I was talking to a vendor that said we'd been able to accomplish in three days what normally it would take three years from a sales funnel perspective. I mean, that is, that's big, and that's not me. That's not my organization. That's other organizations that are benefiting from this energy. Oh, that's awesome. >> The post-isolation economy has become a living metaphor for transformation. And I've been trying to sort of grok and put the pieces together as to how this thing progresses. And my interview with Portaone, in particular, >> Danielle: Yeah. >> really brought it into focus for me, anyway. I'd love to get your thoughts. One of the things we haven't talked much about is public policy. And I think about all the time, all the discussion in the United States about infrastructure, this is critical infrastructure, right? >> Danielle: Yeah. >> And the spectrum is a country like South Africa saying, "Come on in. We want to open up." >> Danielle: Yeah. >> "We want to innovate." And to me that's to me, that's the model for these tier two and tier three telcos that are just going to disrupt the big guys. Whereas, you know, China, may be using the other end of the spectrum, very controlling, but it's the former that is going to adopt the cloud sooner. It's going to completely transform the next decade. >> Yeah, I think this is a great technology for a smaller challenger CSP that still is a large successful company to challenge the incumbents that are, they are dinosaurs too. They move a little bit slow. And maybe if you're a little bit faster, quicker dinosaur you'll survive longer. Maybe it will be able to transform and a public cloud enables that. And I think, you know, I'm playing the long game here, right? >> Dave: Yeah. >> Is public cloud ready for every telco in every corner of the world? No. And there's a couple of things that are barriers to that. We don't really talk about the downsides, and so maybe we sort of wrap up with, there are challenges, and I acknowledge there are challenges. You know, in some cases there are data regulations and issues, right? And you can't, right? There's not a hyperscaler in your country, right? And so you're having a little bit of challenges, but you trend this out over 10 years and then pace it with the hyperscalers are building new data centers. They're each at 25 plus each, plus or minus a few, right? They're marching along, and you trend this out over 10 years, I think one of two things happens. Your data regulations are eased or you a hyperscaler appears in a place you can use it. And those points converge, and hopefully the software's there, and that's my effort. And, yeah. >> You know what's an interesting trend, D. R., John? That is maybe a harbinger to this. You just mentioned something. If the hyperscalers might not have a presence in a country, you know what they're doing? And our data shows this, I do that weekly series "Breaking Analysis," and the data, OpenStack was popping up. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> Like where does OpenStack come from? Well, guess what. When you cut the data, it was telcos using open source to build clouds in regions where there was no hyperscaler. >> Where it didn't exist, yeah. >> So it's a-- >> Gap-filler. >> Yeah, it's a gap-filler. It's a Band-aid. >> But I think this is where like Outpost is such a great idea, right? Like getting Outposts, and I think Microsoft has the ability to do this as well, Google less so, right. They're not providing the staff. They're doing Anthos, so you're still managing this, the rack, but they're giving you the ability to tap into those services. But I was talking to a CE, a CTO in Bolivia. He was like, "We have data privacy issues in our country. There's no hyperscaler." Not sure Bolivia is like next on the list for AWS, right? But he's like, "I'm going to build my own public cloud." And I'm like, "Why would you do that when you can just use Outposts?" And then when your data regulations release or there's a, they get to Bolivia, you can switch and you're on the stack and you're ready to go. I think that's what you should do. You should totally do that. >> Yeah, and one of the things that's come up here on the interviews and theCube and here, the show, is that there are risk takers and innovators and there's operators. And this has been the consistent theme around, yeah, the on-premises world. You mentioned this regulation reasons and/or some workflows just have to be on premise for security reasons, whatever. That's the corner case. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> But the operating model of the technology architecture is shifted. >> Danielle: Yep. >> And that reality, I don't think, is debatable. So I find it. I've got to ask you this because I'm really curious. I know you get a lot of people steering 'ya, oh the public cloud's just a hosting, but why aren't people getting this architectural shift? I mean, you mentioned Outpost, and Wavelength, which Amazon has, is a game changer. It's Amazon Cloud at the hub. >> Yeah, at the edge, yeah. >> Okay, that's a low latency again, low-hanging fruit applications, robotics, whatnot. I mean, that's an architectural dot that's been connected. >> Yeah. >> Why aren't people getting it? >> In our industry, I think it is a lot of not invented here syndrome, right? And that's a very sort of nineties thought, and I have been advocating stand on the shoulders of the greatest technologists in the world. Right? And you know, there is a geopolitical US thing. I think we lived through a presidency that had a sort of nationalistic approach and a lot of those conversations pop up, but I've also looked to these guys and I'm like, you still have your Huawei kit installed, and there's concerns with that, too. So, and you picked it because of cost. And it's really hard to switch off of. >> John: Yeah. >> So give me a break with your public cloud USA stuff, right? You can use it. You're just making excuses. You're just afraid. What are you afraid of? The HR implications? Let's talk about that, right? And the minute I take it there, conversation changes. >> I talked to Teresa Carlson when she was running the public sector at AWS. She's now president of Splunk. I call her a Renaissance woman. She's been a great leader. In public sector there's been this weird little pocket of AWS where it's, I guess, a sales division, but it's still its own company. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> And she just did the CIA deal. The DOD and the public sector partnerships are now private, a lot more private relationships. So it's not like just governments. You mentioned government and national security and these things. You start to see the ecosystem, not, not just be about companies, government and private sector. So this whole vibe of the telecomm being regulated, unregulated, unbundled is an interesting kind of theory. What's your thoughts and reactions to this kind melting pot of ecosystem change and evolution? >> Yeah, I mean, I think there's a very nationalistic approach by the telcos, right? They sort of think about the countries that they operate in. There's a couple of groups that go across multiple countries, but can there be a global telco? Can that happen, right? Just like we say, you were saying it earlier, Netflix. Right? You didn't say Netflix, UK, right? And so can we have a global telco, right? That is challenging on a lot of different levels. But think about that in a public cloud starts to enable that idea. Right? Elon Musk is going to get Mars. >> Dave: Yep. >> John: Yeah. >> You need a planetary level telco, and I think that day is, I mean, I don't think it's tomorrow, but I think that's like 10, 20 years away. >> You're done. We're going to see it start this decade. It's already starting. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> But we're going to see the fruits of that dividend. >> Danielle: Right, yeah. >> I got to ask you. You're a student of the industry and you got so much experience. It's great to have you on theCube and chat about, riff about, these things, but the the classic "Who's ready for disruption?" question comes up. And I think there's no doubt that the telcos, as an industry, has been slow moving, and the role and the importance has changed. People need the need to have the internet access. They need to access. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> So and you've got the Edge. Now applications are now running on a, since the iPhone 14 years ago, as you pointed out, people now are interested in how packets move. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> That's fast, whether it's a doctor or an emergency worker or someone. >> What would we have done in 2020 without the internet and broadband and our mobile phones? I mean. >> Dave: We would have been miserable. >> You know, I think about 1920 when the Spanish flu pandemic hit a hundred years ago. Those guys did not have mobile phones, and they must have been bored, right? I mean, what are you going to do? Right? And so, yeah, I think, I think last year really moved a lot of thinking forward in this respect, so. >> Yeah, it's always like that animal out in the Serengeti that gets taken down, you know, by the cheetah or the lion. How do you know when someone is going to be disrupted? What's the, what's the tell sign in your mind? You look at the telco landscape, what is someone waiting to be disrupted or replaced look like? >> Know what? They're ostriches. Ostriches, how do you say that word right? They stick their head in the sand. Like they don't want to talk about it. La, la, la, I don't want to. I don't want to think about it. You know, they bring up all these like roadblocks, and I'm like, okay, I'm going to come visit you in another six months to a year, and let's see what happens when the guys that are moving fast that are open-minded to this. And it's, I mean, when you start to use the public cloud, you don't like turn it on overnight. You start experimenting, right? You start. You take an application that is non-threatening. You have, I mean, these guys are running thousands of apps inside their data centers. Pick some boring ones. Pick some old ones that no one likes. Move that to the public cloud. Play with it, right? I'm not talking about moving your whole network overnight tomorrow. You got to learn. You have no, I mean, very little talent in the telco that know how to program against the AWS stack. Start hiring. Start doing it. And you're going to start to learn about the compensation. And I used to do compensation, right? I spent a lot of time in HR, right? The compensation points and structures, and they can bear AWS and Google versus a telco. You want Telco stock? Do you want Google stock? >> John: Right, where do you want to go? >> Right? Right? And so you need to start. Like that's going to challenge the HR organization in terms of compensate. How do we compensate our people when they're learning these new, valuable skills? >> When you think about disruption, you know, the master or the professor of disruption, Clay Christensen, one of the best lectures he ever gave is we were at Cambridge, and he gave a lecture on the steel industry and he was describing it. It was like four layers of value in the steel industry, the value chain. It started with rebar, like the lowest end. Right? >> Danielle: Yeah, yeah. >> And the telco's actually the opposite. So, you know, when the international companies came in, they went after rebar, and the higher end steel companies said, "Nah, let them have it." >> Danielle: Let it go. >> "That's the low margin stuff." And then eventually when they got up to the high end, they all got killed. >> Danielle: It was over, yeah. >> The telcos are the opposite. They're like, you know, in the connectivity, and they're hanging on to that because it's so big, but all the high value stuff, it's already gone to the over-the-top players, right? >> It's being eaten away. And I'm like, "What is going to wake you guys up to realize those are your competitors?" That's where the battle is, right? >> Dave: That's really where the value is. >> The battle of the bastards. You're there by yourself, the Game of Thrones, and they're coming at you. >> John: You need a dragon. >> What are you doing about it? >> I need a dragon. I need a dragon to compete in this market. Riding on the dragon would be a good strategy. >> I know. I was just watching. 'Cause I have a podcast. I have a podcast called "Telco in 20," and we always put like little nuggets in the show notes. I personally review them. I was just reviewing the one for the keynote that we're putting out. And I had a dragon in my keynote, right? It was a really great moment. It was really fun to do. But there's, I don't know if you guys are Game of Thrones fans. >> Dave: Oh, yeah. >> John: For sure. >> Right? But there's a great moment when Daenerys guts her dragons, the baby dragons, and she takes over the Unsullied Army. Right? And it's just this, right? Like all of a sudden, the tables turn in an instant where she has nothing, and she's like on her quest, right? I'm on a quest. >> John: Comes out of the fire. >> Right, comes out of the fire. The unburnt, right? She has her dragons, right? She has them hatch. She takes over the Unsullied Army, right? Slays and starts her march, right? And I'm like, we're putting that clip into the show notes because I think that's where we are. I think I've hatched some dragons, right? The Cloud City Army, let's go, let's go take on Telco. >> John: Well, I mean to me... >> Easy. >> I definitely have made it happen because I heard many people talking about cloud. This is turning into a cloud show. The question is, when does this be, going to be a cloud show? You know it's just Cloud City is a big section of the show. I mean, all the big players are behind it. >> Danielle: Yeah, yeah. >> Amazon Web Services, Google, Azure, Ecosystem, startups thinking differently, but everyone's agreeing, "Why aren't we doing this?" >> I think, like I said, I mean, people are like, you're such a visionary. And how did, why do you think this will work? I'm like, it's worked in every other industry. Am I really that visionary? And like, these are the three best tech companies in the world. Like, are you kidding me? And so I think we've shown the momentum here. I think we're looking forward to 2022, you know? And do we see 2022, you get to start planning this the minute we get back. Right? >> John: Yeah. >> Like I wouldn't recommend doing this in a hundred days again. That was a very painful, but you know, February, I was, there's a sign inside NWC, February 28th, right? We're talking seven months. You got to get going now. >> John: Let's get on the phone. (John and Dave talking at the same time) >> I mean, I think you're right on. I mean, you know, remember Skype in the early days? >> Danielle: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> It wasn't regional. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> It was just plug into the internet, right? >> Danielle: It was just Skype. It was just WhatsApp. >> Well, this great location, and if you can get a shot, guys, of the people behind us. I don't know if you can. If you're watching, check out the scene here. It's winding down. A lot of people having happy hour now. This is a social construct here at Cloud City. Not only is it chock full of information, reporting that we're doing and getting all the data and with the presentations on the main stage with Adam and the studio and the team. This is a place where people are meeting and there's deals being done face to face, intimate relationships. The best of the best are here. They make the trek, so there's been a successful formula. Of course theCube is in the middle of all the action, which we love. We're excited to be back. I want to thank you personally while we have you on stage here. >> I want to thank you guys and the crew. The crew has been amazing turning out videos on short order. We have all these crews in different cities. It's our own show has been virtual. You know, Adam's at Bristol, right? We're here. This was an experiment. We talked about this a hundred days ago, 90 days ago. Could we get theCube there and do the show, but also theCube. >> You are a visionary. And you said, made for TV hybrid event with your team, reduced television shows, theCube. We're digital. We love you guys. Great alignment, but it's magical because the content doesn't end here. The show might end. They might break down the beautiful plants and the exhibits, but the community is going to continue. The content and the conversations. >> Yeah. >> So. >> We are looking forward to it and. >> Yeah, super-glad, super-glad we did this. >> Awesome. Well, any final moments that you would like to share? And the last two minutes we have, favorite moments, observations, funny things that have happened to you, weird things that have happened to you. Share something that people might not know or a favorite moment. >> I think, I mean I don't know that people know we have a 3D printer in the coffee shops, and so you can upload any picture, and there are three 3D printing coffee art, right? So I've been seeing lots of social posts around people uploading their, their logos and things like that. I think Jon Bon Jovi, he was super-thankful to be back. He thanked me personally two different times of like, I'm just glad to be out in front of people. And I think just even just the people walking around, thank you for being brave, thank you for coming back. You've helped Barcelona, and we're happy to be together even if it is with masks. It's hard to do business with masks on. Everyone's happy and psyched. >> The one thing that people cannot do relative to you is they cannot ignore you. You are making a great big waves. >> Danielle: I shout pretty loud. It's kind of hard to ignore me. >> Okay, you're making a great big wave. You're on the right side, we believe, of history. Public cloud is driving the bus down main street of Cloud City, and if people don't get out of the way, they will be under the bus. >> And like I said, in my keynote, it's go time. Let's do it. >> Okay, thank you so much for all your tension and mission behind the cloud and the success of... >> Danielle: We'll do it again. We're going to do it again soon. >> Ketogi's hundred million dollar investment. Be the CEO of Togi as we follow that progress. And of course, Telco D. R. Danielle Royston, the digital revolution. Thanks for coming on theCube. >> Thank you, guys. It was super-fun. Thank you so much. >> This is theCube. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. We're going to send it back to Adam in the studio. Thanks the team here. (Danielle clapping and cheering) I want to thank the team, everyone here. Adam is great. Chloe, great working with you guys. Awesome. And what a great crew. >> So great. >> Thank you everybody. That's it for theCube here on the last day, Wednesday, of theCube. Stay tuned for tomorrow, more action on the main stage here in Cloud City. Thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: From around the globe it's theCUBE, covering HPE Discover Virtual Experience brought to you by HPE. >> Hi everybody. Welcome back. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, and this is our coverage of discover 2020, the virtual experience of HPE discover. We've done many, many discoveries, as usually we're on the show floor, theCUBE has been virtualized and we talk a lot at HPE discovers, a lot of storage and server and infrastructure and networking which is great. But the conversation we're going to have now is really, we're going to be talking about helping the world solve some big problems. And I'm very excited to welcome back to theCUBE Dr. Eng Lim Goh. He's a senior vice president of and CTO for AI, at HPE. Hello, Dr. Goh. Great to see you again. >> Hello. Thank you for having us, Dave. >> You're welcome. And then our next guest is Professor Joachim Schultze, who is the Professor for Genomics, and Immunoregulation at the university of Bonn amongst other things Professor, welcome. >> Thank you all. Welcome. >> And then Prasad Shastry, is the Chief Technologist for the India Advanced Development Center at HPE. Welcome, Prasad. Great to see you. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me. >> So guys, we have a CUBE first. I don't believe we've ever had of three guests in three separate times zones. I'm in a fourth time zone. (guests chuckling) So I'm in Boston. Dr. Goh, you're in Singapore, Professor Schultze, you're in Germany and Prasad, you're in India. So, we've got four different time zones. Plus our studio in Palo Alto. Who's running this program. So we've got actually got five times zones, a CUBE first. >> Amazing. >> Very good. (Prasad chuckles) >> Such as the world we live in. So we're going to talk about some of the big problems. I mean, here's the thing we're obviously in the middle of this pandemic, we're thinking about the post isolation economy, et cetera. People compare obviously no surprise to the Spanish flu early part of last century. They talk about the great depression, but the big difference this time is technology. Technology has completely changed the way in which we've approached this pandemic. And we're going to talk about that. Dr. Goh, I want to start with you. You've done a lot of work on this topic of swarm learning. If we could, (mumbles) my limited knowledge of this is we're kind of borrowing from nature. You think about, bees looking for a hive as sort of independent agents, but somehow they come together and communicate, but tell us what do we need to know about swarm learning and how it relates to artificial intelligence and we'll get into it. >> Oh, Dave, that's a great analogy using swarm of bees. That's exactly what we do at HPE. So let's use the of here. When deploying artificial intelligence, a hospital does machine learning of the outpatient data that could be biased, due to demographics and the types of cases they see more also. Sharing patient data across different hospitals to remove this bias is limited, given privacy or even sovereignty the restrictions, right? Like for example, across countries in the EU. HPE, so I'm learning fixers this by allowing each hospital, let's still continue learning locally, but at each cycle we collect the lumped weights of the neural networks, average them and sending it back down to older hospitals. And after a few cycles of doing this, all the hospitals would have learned from each other, removing biases without having to share any private patient data. That's the key. So, the ability to allow you to learn from everybody without having to share your private patients. That's swarm learning, >> And part of the key to that privacy is blockchain, correct? I mean, you you've been too involved in blockchain and invented some things in blockchain and that's part of the privacy angle, is it not? >> Yes, yes, absolutely. There are different ways of doing this kind of distributed learning, which swarm learning is over many of the other distributed learning methods. Require you to have some central control. Right? So, Prasad, and the team and us came up together. We have a method where you would, instead of central control, use blockchain to do this coordination. So, there is no more a central control or coordinator, especially important if you want to have a truly distributed swamp type learning system. >> Yeah, no need for so-called trusted third party or adjudicator. Okay. Professor Schultze, let's go to you. You're essentially the use case of this swarm learning application. Tell us a little bit more about what you do and how you're applying this concept. >> I'm actually by training a physician, although I haven't seen patients for a very long time. I'm interested in bringing new technologies to what we call precision medicine. So, new technologies both from the laboratories, but also from computational sciences, married them. And then I basically allow precision medicine, which is a medicine that is built on new measurements, many measurements of molecular phenotypes, how we call them. So, basically that process on different levels, for example, the genome or genes that are transcribed from the genome. We have thousands of such data and we have to make sense out of this. This can only be done by computation. And as we discussed already one of the hope for the future is that the new wave of developments in artificial intelligence and machine learning. We can make more sense out of this huge data that we generate right now in medicine. And that's what we're interesting in to find out how can we leverage these new technologies to build a new diagnostics, new therapy outcome predictors. So, to know the patient benefits from a disease, from a diagnostics or a therapy or not, and that's what we are doing for the last 10 years. The most exciting thing I have been  through in the last three, four, five years is really when HPE introduced us to swarm learning. >> Okay and Prasad, you've been helping Professor Schultze, actually implements swarm learning for specific use cases that we're going to talk about COVID, but maybe describe a little bit about what you've been or your participation in this whole equation. >> Yep, thank. As Dr Eng Lim Goh, mentioned. So, we have used blockchain as a backbone to implement the decentralized network. And through that we're enabling a privacy preserved these centralized network without having any control points, as Professor explained in terms of depression medicines. So, one of the use case we are looking at he's looking at the blood transcriptomes, think of it, different hospitals having a different set of transcriptome data, which they cannot share due to the privacy regulations. And now each of those hospitals, will clean the model depending upon their local data, which is available in that hospital. And shared the learnings coming out of that training with the other hospitals. And we played to over several cycles to merge all these learnings and then finally get into a global model. So, through that we are able to kind of get into a model which provides the performance is equal of collecting all the data into a central repository and trying to do it. And we could really think of when we are doing it, them, could be multiple kinds of challenges. So, it's good to do decentralized learning. But what about if you have a non ID type of data, what about if there is a dropout in the network connections? What about if there are some of the compute nodes we just practice or probably they're not seeing sufficient amount of data. So, that's something we tried to build into the swarm learning framework. You'll handle the scenarios of having non ID data. All in a simple word we could call it as seeing having the biases. An example, one of the hospital might see EPR trying to, look at, in terms of let's say the tumors, how many number of cases and whereas the other hospital might have very less number of cases. So, if you have kind of implemented some techniques in terms of doing the merging or providing the way that different kind of weights or the tuneable parameters to overcome these set of challenges in the swarm learning. >> And Professor Schultze, you you've applied this to really try to better understand and attack the COVID pandemic, can you describe in more detail your goals there and what you've actually done and accomplished? >> Yeah. So, we have actually really done it for COVID. The reason why we really were trying to do this already now is that we have to generate it to these transcriptomes from COVID-19 patients ourselves. And we realized that the scene of the disease is so strong and so unique compared to other infectious diseases, which we looked at in some detail that we felt that the blood transcriptome would be good starting point actually to identify patients. But maybe even more important to identify those with severe diseases. So, if you can identify them early enough that'd be basically could care for those more and find particular for those treatments and therapies. And the reason why we could do that is because we also had some other test cases done before. So, we used the time wisely with large data sets that we had collected beforehand. So, use cases learned how to apply swarm learning, and we are now basically ready to test directly with COVID-19. So, this is really a step wise process, although it was extremely fast, it was still a step wise probably we're guided by data where we had much more knowledge of which was with the black leukemia. So, we had worked on that for years. We had collected many data. So, we could really simulate a Swarm learning very nicely. And based on all the experience we get and gain together with Prasad, and his team, we could quickly then also apply that knowledge to the data that are coming now from COVID-19 patients. >> So, Dr. Goh, it really comes back to how we apply machine intelligence to the data, and this is such an interesting use case. I mean, the United States, we have 50 different States with 50 different policies, different counties. We certainly have differences around the world in terms of how people are approaching this pandemic. And so the data is very rich and varied. Let's talk about that dynamic. >> Yeah. If you, for the listeners who are or viewers who are new to this, right? The workflow could be a patient comes in, you take the blood, and you send it through an analysis? DNA is made up of genes and our genes express, right? They express in two steps the first they transcribe, then they translate. But what we are analyzing is the middle step, the transcription stage. And tens of thousands of these Transcripts that are produced after the analysis of the blood. The thing is, can we find in the tens of thousands of items, right? Or biomarkers a signature that tells us, this is COVID-19 and how serious it is for this patient, right? Now, the data is enormous, right? For every patient. And then you have a collection of patients in each hospitals that have a certain demographic. And then you have also a number of hospitals around. The point is how'd you get to share all that data in order to have good training of your machine? The ACO is of course a know privacy of data, right? And as such, how do you then share that information if privacy restricts you from sharing the data? So in this case, swarm learning only shares the learnings, not the private patient data. So we hope this approach would allow all the different hospitals to come together and unite sharing the learnings removing biases so that we have high accuracy in our prediction as well at the same time, maintaining privacy. >> It's really well explained. And I would like to add at least for the European union, that this is extremely important because the lawmakers have clearly stated, and the governments that even non of these crisis conditions, they will not minimize the rules of privacy laws, their compliance to privacy laws has to stay as high as outside of the pandemic. And I think there's good reasons for that, because if you lower the bond, now, why shouldn't you lower the bar in other times as well? And I think that was a wise decision, yes. If you would see in the medical field, how difficult it is to discuss, how do we share the data fast enough? I think swarm learning is really an amazing solution to that. Yeah, because this discussion is gone basically. Now we can discuss about how we do learning together. I'd rather than discussing what would be a lengthy procedure to go towards sharing. Which is very difficult under the current privacy laws. So, I think that's why I was so excited when I learned about it, the first place with faster, we can do things that otherwise are either not possible or would take forever. And for a crisis that's key. That's absolutely key. >> And is the byproduct. It's also the fact that all the data stay where they are at the different hospitals with no movement. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Learn locally but only shared the learnings. >> Right. Very important in the EU of course, even in the United States, People are debating. What about contact tracing and using technology and cell phones, and smartphones to do that. Beside, I don't know what the situation is like in India, but nonetheless, that Dr. Goh's point about just sharing the learnings, bubbling it up, trickling just kind of metadata. If you will, back down, protects us. But at the same time, it allows us to iterate and improve the models. And so, that's a key part of this, the starting point and the conclusions that we draw from the models they're going to, and we've seen this with the pandemic, it changes daily, certainly weekly, but even daily. We continuously improve the conclusions and the models don't we. >> Absolutely, as Dr. Goh explained well. So, we could look at like they have the clinics or the testing centers, which are done in the remote places or wherever. So, we could collect those data at the time. And then if we could run it to the transcripting kind of a sequencing. And then as in, when we learn to these new samples and the new pieces all of them put kind of, how is that in the local data participate in the kind of use swarm learning, not just within the state or in a country could participate into an swarm learning globally to share all this data, which is coming up in a new way, and then also implement some kind of continuous learning to pick up the new signals or the new insight. It comes a bit new set of data and also help to immediately deploy it back into the inference or into the practice of identification. To do these, I think one of the key things which we have realized is to making it very simple. It's making it simple, to convert the machine learning models into the swarm learning, because we know that our subject matter experts who are going to develop these models on their choice of platforms and also making it simple to integrate into that complete machine learning workflow from the time of collecting a data pre processing and then doing the model training and then putting it onto inferencing and looking performance. So, we have kept that in the mind from the beginning while developing it. So, we kind of developed it as a plug able microservices kind of packed data with containers. So the whole library could be given it as a container with a kind of a decentralized management command controls, which would help to manage the whole swarm network and to start and initiate and children enrollment of new hospitals or the new nodes into the swarm network. At the same time, we also looked into the task of the data scientists and then try to make it very, very easy for them to take their existing models and convert that into the swarm learning frameworks so that they can convert or enabled they're models to participate in a decentralized learning. So, we have made it to a set callable rest APIs. And I could say that the example, which we are working with the Professor either in the case of leukemia or in the COVID kind of things. The noodle network model. So we're kind of using the 10 layer neural network things. We could convert that into the swarm model with less than 10 lines of code changes. So, that's kind of a simply three we are looking at so that it helps to make it quicker, faster and loaded the benefits. >> So, that's an exciting thing here Dr. Goh is, this is not an R and D project. This is something that you're actually, implementing in a real world, even though it's a narrow example, but there are so many other examples that I'd love to talk about, but please, you had a comment. >> Yes. The key thing here is that in addition to allowing privacy to be kept at each hospital, you also have the issue of different hospitals having day to day skewed differently. Right? For example, a demographics could be that this hospital is seeing a lot more younger patients, and other hospitals seeing a lot more older patients. Right? And then if you are doing machine learning in isolation then your machine might be better at recognizing the condition in the younger population, but not older and vice versa by using this approach of swarm learning, we then have the biases removed so that both hospitals can detect for younger and older population. All right. So, this is an important point, right? The ability to remove biases here. And you can see biases in the different hospitals because of the type of cases they see and the demographics. Now, the other point that's very important to reemphasize is what precise Professor Schultze mentioned, right? It's how we made it very easy to implement this.Right? This started out being so, for example, each hospital has their own neural network and they training their own. All you do is we come in, as Pasad mentioned, change a few lines of code in the original, machine learning model. And now you're part of the collective swarm. This is how we want to easy to implement so that we can get again, as I like to call, hospitals of the world to uniting. >> Yeah. >> Without sharing private patient data. So, let's double click on that Professor. So, tell us about sort of your team, how you're taking advantage of this Dr. Goh, just describe, sort of the simplicity, but what are the skills that you need to take advantage of this? What's your team look like? >> Yeah. So, we actually have a team that's comes from physicians to biologists, from medical experts up to computational scientists. So, we have early on invested in having these interdisciplinary research teams so that we can actually spend the whole spectrum. So, people know about the medicine they know about them the biological basics, but they also know how to implement such new technology. So, they are probably a little bit spearheading that, but this is the way to go in the future. And I see that with many institutions going this way many other groups are going into this direction because finally medicine understands that without computational sciences, without artificial intelligence and machine learning, we will not answer those questions with this large data that we're using. So, I'm here fine. But I also realize that when we entered this project, we had basically our model, we had our machine learning model from the leukemia's, and it really took almost no efforts to get this into the swarm. So, we were really ready to go in very short time, but I also would like to say, and then it goes towards the bias that is existing in medicine between different places. Dr. Goh said this very nicely. It's one aspect is the patient and so on, but also the techniques, how we do clinical essays, we're using different robots a bit. Using different automates to do the analysis. And we actually try to find out what the Swan learning is doing if we actually provide such a bias by prep itself. So, I did the following thing. We know that there's different ways of measuring these transcriptomes. And we actually simulated that two hospitals had an older technology and a third hospital had a much newer technology, which is good for understanding the biology and the diseases. But it is the new technology is prone for not being able anymore to generate data that can be used to learn and then predicting the old technology. So, there was basically, it's deteriorating, if you do take the new one and you'll make a classifier model and you try old data, it doesn't work anymore. So, that's a very hard challenge. We knew it didn't work anymore in the old way. So, we've pushed it into swarm learning and to swarm recognize that, and it didn't take care of it. It didn't care anymore because the results were even better by bringing everything together. I was astonished. I mean, it's absolutely amazing. That's although we knew about this limitations on that one hospital data, this form basically could deal with it. I think there's more to learn about these advantages. Yeah. And I'm very excited. It's not only a transcriptome that people do. I hope we can very soon do it with imaging or the DCNE has 10 sites in Germany connected to 10 university hospitals. There's a lot of imaging data, CT scans and MRIs, Rachel Grimes. And this is the next next domain in medicine that we would like to apply as well as running. Absolutely. >> Well, it's very exciting being able to bring this to the clinical world And make it in sort of an ongoing learnings. I mean, you think about, again, coming back to the pandemic, initially, we thought putting people on ventilators was the right thing to do. We learned, okay. Maybe, maybe not so much the efficacy of vaccines and other therapeutics. It's going to be really interesting to see how those play out. My understanding is that the vaccines coming out of China, or built to for speed, get to market fast, be interested in U.S. Maybe, try to build vaccines that are maybe more longterm effective. Let's see if that actually occurs some of those other biases and tests that we can do. That is a very exciting, continuous use case. Isn't it? >> Yeah, I think so. Go ahead. >> Yes. I, in fact, we have another project ongoing to use a transcriptome data and other data like metabolic and cytokines that data, all these biomarkers from the blood, right? Volunteers during a clinical trial. But the whole idea of looking at all those biomarkers, we talking tens of thousands of them, the same thing again, and then see if we can streamline it clinical trials by looking at it data and training with that data. So again, here you go. Right? We have very good that we have many vaccines on. In candidates out there right now, the next long pole in the tenth is the clinical trial. And we are working on that also by applying the same concept. Yeah. But for clinical trials. >> Right. And then Prasad, it seems to me that this is a good, an example of sort of an edge use case. Right? You've got a lot of distributed data. And I know you've spoken in the past about the edge generally, where data lives bringing moving data back to sort of the centralized model. But of course you don't want to move data if you don't have to real time AI inferencing at the edge. So, what are you thinking in terms of other other edge use cases that were there swarm learning can be applied. >> Yeah, that's a great point. We could kind of look at this both in the medical and also in the other fields, as we talked about Professor just mentioned about this radiographs and then probably, Using this with a medical image data, think of it as a scenario in the future. So, if we could have an edge note sitting next to these medical imaging systems, very close to that. And then as in when this the systems producers, the medical immediate speed could be an X-ray or a CT scan or MRI scan types of thing. The system next to that, sitting on the attached to that. From the modernity is already built with the swarm lending. It can do the inferencing. And also with the new setup data, if it looks some kind of an outlier sees the new or images are probably a new signals. It could use that new data to initiate another round up as form learning with all the involved or the other medical images across the globe. So, all this can happen without really sharing any of the raw data outside of the systems but just getting the inferencing and then trying to make all of these systems to come together and try to build a better model. >> So, the last question. Yeah. >> If I may, we got to wrap, but I mean, I first, I think we've heard about swarm learning, maybe read about it probably 30 years ago and then just ignored it and forgot about it. And now here we are today, blockchain of course, first heard about with Bitcoin and you're seeing all kinds of really interesting examples, but Dr. Goh, start with you. This is really an exciting area, and we're just getting started. Where do you see swarm learning, by let's say the end of the decade, what are the possibilities? >> Yeah. You could see this being applied in many other industries, right? So, we've spoken about life sciences, to the healthcare industry or you can't imagine the scenario of manufacturing where a decade from now you have intelligent robots that can learn from looking at across men building a product and then to replicate it, right? By just looking, listening, learning and imagine now you have multiple of these robots, all sharing their learnings across boundaries, right? Across state boundaries, across country boundaries provided you allow that without having to share what they are seeing. Right? They can share, what they have lunch learnt You see, that's the difference without having to need to share what they see and hear, they can share what they have learned across all the different robots around the world. Right? All in the community that you allow, you mentioned that time, right? That will even in manufacturing, you get intelligent robots learning from each other. >> Professor, I wonder if as a practitioner, if you could sort of lay out your vision for where you see something like this going in the future, >> I'll stay with the medical field at the moment being, although I agree, it will be in many other areas, medicine has two traditions for sure. One is learning from each other. So, that's an old tradition in medicine for thousands of years, but what's interesting and that's even more in the modern times, we have no traditional sharing data. It's just not really inherent to medicine. So, that's the mindset. So yes, learning from each other is fine, but sharing data is not so fine, but swarm learning deals with that, we can still learn from each other. We can, help each other by learning and this time by machine learning. We don't have to actually dealing with the data sharing anymore because that's that's us. So for me, it's a really perfect situation. Medicine could benefit dramatically from that because it goes along the traditions and that's very often very important to get adopted. And on top of that, what also is not seen very well in medicine is that there's a hierarchy in the sense of serious certain institutions rule others and swarm learning is exactly helping us there because it democratizes, onboarding everybody. And even if you're not sort of a small entity or a small institutional or small hospital, you could become remembering the swarm and you will become as a member important. And there is no no central institution that actually rules everything. But this democratization, I really laugh, I have to say, >> Pasad, we'll give you the final word. I mean, your job is very helping to apply these technologies to solve problems. what's your vision or for this. >> Yeah. I think Professor mentioned about one of the very key points to use saying that democratization of BI I'd like to just expand a little bit. So, it has a very profound application. So, Dr. Goh, mentioned about, the manufacturing. So, if you look at any field, it could be health science, manufacturing, autonomous vehicles and those to the democratization, and also using that a blockchain, we are kind of building a framework also to incentivize the people who own certain set of data and then bring the insight from the data into the table for doing and swarm learning. So, we could build some kind of alternative monetization framework or an incentivization framework on top of the existing fund learning stuff, which we are working on to enable the participants to bring their data or insight and then get rewarded accordingly kind of a thing. So, if you look at eventually, we could completely make dais a democratized AI, with having the complete monitorization incentivization system which is built into that. You may call the parties to seamlessly work together. >> So, I think this is just a fabulous example of we hear a lot in the media about, the tech backlash breaking up big tech but how tech has disrupted our lives. But this is a great example of tech for good and responsible tech for good. And if you think about this pandemic, if there's one thing that it's taught us is that disruptions outside of technology, pandemics or natural disasters or climate change, et cetera, are probably going to be the bigger disruptions then technology yet technology is going to help us solve those problems and address those disruptions. Gentlemen, I really appreciate you coming on theCUBE and sharing this great example and wish you best of luck in your endeavors. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for having me. >> And thank you everybody for watching. This is theCUBE's coverage of HPE discover 2020, the virtual experience. We'll be right back right after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. (intense music) >> Hi, everybody, this is Dave Vellante in theCUBE, and as you know, I've been doing a CEO series, and welcome to the isolation economy. We're here at theCUBE's remote studio, and really pleased to have Charlie Giancarlo, who is the CEO of PureStorage. Charlie, I wish we were face-to-face at Pure Accelerate, but this'll have to do. Thanks for coming on. >> You know, Dave, it's always fun to be face-to-face with you. At Pure Accelerate when we do it in person is great fun, but we do what we have to do, and actually, this has been a great event for us, so appreciate you coming on air with me. >> Yeah, and we're going to chat about that, but I want to start off with this meme that's been going around the internet. I was going to use the wrecking ball. I don't know if you've seen that. It's got the people, the executives in the office building saying, "Eh, digital transformation; "not in my lifetime," complacency, and then this big wrecking ball, the COVID-19. You've probably seen it, but as you can see here, somebody created a survey, Who's leading the digital transformation at your company? The CEO, the CTO, or of course circled is COVID-19, and so we've seen that, right? You had no choice but to be a digital company. >> Well, there's that, and there's also the fact that the CEOs who've been wanting to push a digital transformation against a team that wants to stick with the status quo, it gives the CEO now, and even within our own company in Pure, to drive towards that digital transformation when people didn't really take up the mantle. So no, it's a great opportunity for digital transformation, and of course, the companies that have been doing it all along have been getting ahead during this crisis, and the ones that haven't are having some real trouble. And you and I have had some really interesting conversations. Again, that's, I think, the thing I miss most, not only having you in theCUBE, but the side conversations at the cocktail parties, et cetera. And we've talked about IP, and China, and the history of the US, and all kinds of interesting things there, but one of the things I want to put forth, and I know you guys, Kix especially, has done a lot of work on Tech For Good, but the narrative pre-COVID, PC I guess we'd call it, was really a lot of vitriol toward big tech especially, but you know what? That tech lash... Without tech, where would we be right now? >> Well, just think about it, right? Where would we be without videoconferencing, without the internet, right? We'd be sheltered in place with literally nothing to do, and all business would stop, and of course many businesses that require in-person have, but thank God you can still get goods at your home. You can still get food, you can still get all these things that today is enabled by technology. We've seen this ourselves, in terms of having to make emergency shipments during our first quarter to critical infrastructure to keep things going. It's been quite a quarter. I was saying to my team recently that we had just gotten everyone together in February for our sales kickoff for the year, and it felt like a full year since I had seen them all. >> Well, I had interviewed, I think, is it Mike Fitzgerald, your head of supply chain. >> Yes. >> In March, and he was saying, "No. "We have no disruptions. "We're delivering for clients," and we certainly saw that in your results in the quarter. >> Yeah, no, we're very fortunate, but we had been planning for doing our normal business continuity disaster planning, and actually, once we saw COVID in Asia in January we started exercising all those muscles, including pre-shipping product around to depos around the world in case transportation got clogged, which it in fact did. So we were well-prepared, but we're also, I think, very fortunate in terms of the fact that we had a very distributed supply chain. >> Yeah, I mean you guys obviously did a good job. You saw in Dell's earnings they held pretty firm. HPE, on the other hand, really saw some disruption, so congratulations to you and the team on that. So as we think about exiting this isolation economy, we've done work that shows about 44% of CIOs see a U-shaped recovery, but it's very fragmented. It varies by industry. It varies by how digital the organizations are. Are they able to provide physical distancing? How essential are these organizations? And so I'm sure you're seeing that in your customer base as well. How are you thinking about exiting this isolation economy? >> Well, I've certainly resisted trying to predict a U- or a V-shape, because I think there are many more unknowns than there are knowns, and in particular, we don't know if there's a second wave. If there is a second wave, is it going to be more or less lethal than the first wave? And as you know, maybe some of your audience knows, I contracted COVID in March. So I've done a lot of reading on not just COVID, but also on the Spanish flu of 1918-1919. It's going to take a while before this settles down, and we don't know what it's going to look like the rest of the year or next year. So a lot of the recovery is going to depend on that. What we can do, however, is make sure that we're prepared to work from home, work in the office, that we make sure that our team out in the field is well-placed to be able to support our customers in the environment, and the way that we're incenting our overall team now has less to do with the macro than it does with our specific segment, and what I mean by that is we're incenting our team to continue to build market share, and to continue to outperform our competition as we go forward, and also on our customer satisfaction figure, which you know is our Net Promoter Score, which is the highest in the industry. So that's how we're incenting our team. >> Yeah, and we're going to talk about that, and by the way, yes, I did know, and it's great to see you healthy, and I'd be remiss if I didn't also express my condolences, Matt, the loss of Matt Danziger, your head of IR, terrible tragedy. Of course Matt had some roots in Boston, went to school in Maine. >> Yeah. >> Loved Cape Cod, and so really sad loss, I'm sure, for all of the Puritans. >> It's affected us all very personally, because Matt was just an incredible team member, a great friend, and so young and vital. When someone that young dies for almost unexplainable reasons. It turned out to be a congenital heart condition that nobody knew about, but it just breaks... It just breaks everyone's heart, so thank you for your condolences. I appreciate it. >> You're welcome. Okay, so let's get into the earnings a little bit. I want to just pull up one of the charts that shows roughly, I have approximately Q1 because some companies like NetApp, Dell, HPE, are sort of staggered, but the latest results you saw IBM growing at 19%. Now we know that was mainframe-driven in a very easy compare. Pure plus 12, and then everybody else in the negative. Dell, minus five, so actually doing pretty well relative to NetApp and HPE, who, as I said, had some challenges with deliveries. But let's talk about your quarter. You continue to be the one sort of shining star in the storage business. Let's get into it. What are your big takeaways that you want us to know about? >> Well, of course I'd rather see everybody in the black, right, everybody in the positive, but we continue to take market share and continue to grow 20 to 30% faster than the rest of the industry combined, and it's quarter after quarter. It's not just a peak in one quarter and then behind in another quarter. Every quarter we're ahead of the rest of the industry, and I think the reasoning is really quite straightforward. We're the one company that invests in storage as if it's high technology. You do hear quite often, and even among some customers, that storage is commoditized, and all of our competitors invest in it, or don't invest in it, as if it's a commoditized market. Our view is quite straightforward. The science and the engineering of computing and data centers continues to evolve, continues to advance, has to advance if we continue down this path of becoming more of a digital economy. As we all know, processors advance in speed and capability. Networking advances in terms of speed and capability. Well, data storage is a third of data center spend, and if it doesn't continue to advance at the same pace or faster than everything else, it becomes a major bottleneck. We've been the innovator. If you look at a number of different studies, year after year, now over six or seven years, we are the leader in innovation in the data storage market, and we're being rewarded for that by penetrating more and more of the customer base. >> All right, let's talk about that. And you mentioned in your keynote at Accelerate that you guys spend more on R&D as a percentage of revenue than anybody, and so I want to throw out some stats. I'm sorry, folks, I don't have a slide on this. HPE spends about 1.8 billion a year on R&D, about 6% of revenues. IBM, I've reported on IBM and how it's spending the last 10 years, spent a huge amount on dividends and stock buybacks, and they spent six billion perpetually on R&D, which is now 8% of revenue. Dell at five billion. Of course Dell used to spend well under a billion before the EMC acquisition. That's about 6% of revenue. And NetApp, 800 million, much higher. They're a pure play, about 13%. Pure spends 430 million last year on R&D, which is over 30% of revenue on R&D, to your point. >> Yeah, yeah, well, as I said, we treat it like it's high technology, which it is, right? If you're not spending at an appropriate level you're going to fall behind, and so we continue to advance. I will say that you mentioned big numbers by the other players, but I was part of a big organization as well with a huge R&D budget, but what matters is what percent of the revenue of a specific area are you spending, right? You mentioned Dell and VMware. A very large fraction of their spend is on VMware. Great product and great company, but very little is being spent in the area of storage. >> Well, and the same thing's true for IBM, and I've made this point. In fact, I made this point about Snowflake last week in my breaking analysis. How is Snowflake able to compete with all these big whales? And the same thing for you guys. Every dime you spend on R&D goes to making your storage products better for your customers. Your go-to-market, same thing. Your partner ecosystem, same thing, and so you're the much more focused play. >> Right, well I think it boils down to one very simple thing, right? Most of our competitors are, you might call them one-stop shops, so the shopping mall of IT gear, right? The Best Buy, if you will, of information technology. We're really the sole best of breed player in data storage, right, and if you're a company that wants two vendors, you might choose one that's a one-stop shop. If you have the one-stop shop, the next one you want is a best of breed player, right? And we fill that role for our customers. >> Look it, this business is a technology business, and technology and innovation is driven by research and development, period, the end. But I want to ask you, so the storage business generally, look, you're kind of the one-eyed man in the land of the blind here. I mean the storage business has been somewhat on the back burner. In part it's your fault because you put so much flash into the data center, gave so much headroom that organizations didn't have to buy spindles anymore to get to performance, the cloud has also been a factor. But look, last decade was a better decade for storage than the previous decade when you look at the exits that you guys had and escape velocity, Nutanix, if you can kind of put them in there, too. Much larger than say the Compellents or 3PARs. They didn't make it to a billion. So my question is storage businesses, is it going to come back as a growth business? Like you said, you wish everybody were in the black here. >> Right, well a lot of what's being measured, of course, is enterprise on-prem storage, right? If we add on-prem and cloud, it actually continues to be a big growth business, because data is not shrinking. In fact, data is still growing faster than the price reduction of the media underneath, right, so it's still growing. And as you know, more recently we've introduced what we call Pure as-a-Service and Cloud Block Store. So now we have our same software, which we call Purity, that runs on our on-prem arrays, also running on AWS, and currently in beta on Azure. So from our point of view this is a... First of all, it's a big market, about $30 to $40 billion total. If you add in cloud, it's another $10 to $15 billion, which is a new opportunity for us. Last year we were about 1.65 billion. We're still less than, as you know, less than 10% of the overall market. So the opportunity for us to grow is just tremendous out there, and whether or not total storage grows, for us it's less important right now than the market share that we pick up. >> Right, okay, so I want to stay on that for a minute and talk about... I love talking about the competition. So what I'm showing here with this kind of wheel slide is data from our data partner ETR, and they go out every quarter. They have a very simple methodology. It's like Net Promoter Score, and it's very consistent. They say relative to last year, are you adopting the platform, that's the lime green, and so this is Pure's data. Are you increasing spend by 6% or more? That's the 32%, the forest green. Is spending going to be flat? Is it going to decrease by more than 6%? That's the 9%. And then are you replacing the platform, 2%. Now this was taken at the height of the US lockdown. This last survey. >> Wow. >> So you can see the vast majority of customers are either keeping spending the same, or they're spending more. >> Yeah. >> So that's very, very strong. And I want to just bring up another data point, which is we like to plot that Net Score here on the vertical axis, and then what we call market share. It's not like IDC market share, but it's pervasiveness in the survey. And you can see here, to your point, Pure is really the only, and I've cited the other vendors on the right hand, that box there, you're the only company in the green with a 40% Net Score, and you can see everybody else is well below the line in the red, but to your point, you got a long way to go in terms of gaining market share. >> Exactly, right, and the reason... I think the reason why you're seeing that is really our fundamental and basic value is that our product and our company is easy to do business with and easy to operate, and it's such a pleasure to use versus the competition that customers really appreciate the product and the company. We do have a Net Promoter Score of over 80, which I think you'd be hard-pressed to find another company in any industry with Net Promoter Scores that high. >> Yeah, so I want to stay on the R&D thing for a minute, because you guys bet the company from day one on simplicity, and that's really where you put a lot of effort. So the cloud is vital here, and I want to get your perspective on it. You mentioned your Cloud Block Store, which I like that, it's native to AWS. I think you're adding other platforms. I think you're adding Azure as well, and I'm sure you'll do Google. >> Azure, Azure's in beta, yes. >> Yeah, Google's just a matter of time. Alibaba, you'll get them all, but the key here is that you're taking advantage of the native services, and let's take AWS as an example. You're using EC2, and high priority instances of EC2, as an example, to essentially improve block storage on Amazon. Amazon loves it because it sells Compute. Maybe the storage guys in Amazon don't love it so much, but it's all about the customer, and so the native cloud services are critical. I'm sure you're going to do the same thing for Azure and other clouds, and that takes a lot of investment, but I heard George Kurian today addressing some analysts, talking about they're the only company doing kind of that cloud native approach. Where are you placing your bets? How much of it is cloud versus kind of on-prem, if you will? >> Yeah, well... So first of all, an increasing fraction is cloud, as you might imagine, right? We started off with a few dozen developers, and now we're at many more than that. Of course the majority of our revenue still comes from on-prem, but the value is the following in our case, which is that we literally have the same software operating, from a customer and from a application standpoint. It is the same software operating on-prem as in the cloud, which means that the customer doesn't have to refactor their application to move it into the cloud, and we're the one vendor that's focused on block. What NetApp is doing is great, but it's a file-based system. It's really designed for smaller workloads and low performance workloads. Our system's designed for high performance enterprise workloads, Tier 1 workloads in the cloud. To say that they're both cloud sort of washes over the fact that they're almost going after two completely separate markets. >> Well, I think it's interesting that you're both really emphasizing cloud native, which I think is very important. I think that some of the others have some catching up to do in that regard, and again, that takes a big investment in not just wrapping your stack, and shoving it in the cloud, and hosting it in the cloud. You're actually taking advantage of the local services. >> Well, I mean one thing I'll mention was Amazon gave us an award, which they give to very few vendors. It's called the Well-Architected AWS Award, because we've designed it not to operate, let's say, in a virtualized environment on AWS. We really make use of the native AWS EC2 services. It is designed like a web service on EC2. >> And the reason why this is so important is just, again, to share with our audience is because when you start talking about multi-cloud and hybrid cloud, you want the same exact experience on-prem as you do in the cloud, whether it's hybrid or across clouds, and the key is if you're using cloud native services, you have the most efficient, the highest performance, lowest latency, and lowest cost solution. That is going to be... That's going to be a determinate of the winner. >> Yes, I believe so. Customers don't want to be doing... Be working with software that is going to change, fundamentally change and cause them to have to refactor their applications. If it's not designed natively to the cloud, then when Amazon upgrades it may cause a real problem with the software or with the environment, and so customers don't want that. They want to know they're cloud native. >> Well, your task over the next 10 years is something. Look it, it's very challenging to grow a company the size of Pure, period, but let's face it, you guys caught EMC off-guard. You were driving a truck through the Symmetrics base and the VNX base. Not that that was easy. (chuckling) And they certainly didn't make it easy for ya. But now we've got this sort of next chapter, and I want to talk a little bit about this. You guys call it the Modern Data Experience. You laid it out last Accelerate, kind of your vision. You talked about it more at this year's Accelerate. I wonder if you could tell us the key takeaways from your conference this year. >> Right, the key takeaway... So let me talk about both. I'll start with Modern Data Experience and then key takeaways from this Accelerate. So Modern Data Experience, for those that are not yet familiar with it, is the idea that an on-prem experience would look very similar, if not identical, to a cloud experience. That is to say that applications and orchestrators just use APIs to be able to call upon and have delivered the storage environment that they want to see instantaneously over a high speed network. The amazing thing about storage, even today, is that it's highly mechanical, it's highly hardware-oriented to where if you have a new application and you want storage, you actually have to buy an array and connect it. It's physical. Where we want to be is just like in the cloud. If you have a new application and you want storage or you want data services, you just write a few APIs in your application and it's delivered immediately and automatically, and that's what we're delivering on-prem with the Modern Data Experience. What we're also doing, though, is extending that to the cloud, and with Cloud Block Store as part of this, with that set of interfaces and management system exactly the same as on-prem, you now have that cloud experience across all the clouds without having to refactor applications in one or the other. So that's our Modern Data Experience. That's the vision that drives us. We've delivered more and more against it starting at the last Accelerate, but even more now. Part of this is being able to deliver storage that is flexible and able to be delivered by API. On this Accelerate we delivered our Purity 6.0 for Flash Array, which adds not only greater resiliency characteristics, but now file for the first time in a Flash Array environment, and so now the same Flash Array can deliver both file and block. Which is a unified experience, but all delivered by API and simple to operate. We've also delivered, more recently, Flash Array 3.0... I'm sorry, Purity 3.0 on FlashBlade that delivers the ability for FlashBlade now to have very high resiliency characteristics, and to be able to even better deliver the ability to restore applications when there's been a failure of their data systems very, very rapidly, something that we call Rapid Restore. So these are huge benefits. And the last one I'll mention, Pure as-a-Service allows a customer today to be able to contract for storage as a service on-prem and in the cloud with one unified subscription. So they only pay for what they use. They only pay for what they use when they use it, and they only pay for it, regardless of where it's used, on-prem or in the cloud, and it's a true subscription model. It's owned and operated by Pure, but the customer gets the benefit of only paying for what they use, regardless of where they use it. >> Awesome, thanks for that run through. And a couple other notes that I had, I mean you obviously talked about the support for the work from home and remote capabilities. Automation came up a lot. >> Yep. >> You and I, I said, we have these great conversations, and one of the ones I would have with you if we were having a drink somewhere would be if you look at productivity stats in US and Europe, they're declining-- >> Yes. >> Pretty dramatically. And if you think about the grand challenges we have, the global challenges, whether it's pandemics, or healthcare, or feeding people, et cetera, we're not going to be able to meet those challenges without automation. I mean people, for years, have been afraid of automation. "Oh, we're going to lose jobs." We don't have enough people to solve all these problems, and so I think that's behind us, right-- >> Yeah, I agree. >> The fear of automation. So that came up. Yeah, go ahead, please. >> I once met with Alan Greenspan. You may remember him. >> Of course. >> This is after he was the chairman, and he said, "Look, I've studied the economies now "for the last 100 years, "and the fact of the matter is "that wealth follows productivity." The more productive you are as a society, that means the greater the wealth that exists for every individual, right? The standard of living follows productivity, and without productivity there's no wealth creation for society. So to your point, yeah, if we don't become more productive, more efficient, people don't live better, right? >> Yeah, I knew you'd have some good thoughts on that, and of course, speaking of Greenspan, we're seeing a little bit of rational exuberance maybe in the market. (chuckling) Pretty amazing. But you also talked about containers, and persisting containers, and Kubernetes, the importance of Kubernetes. That seems to be a big trend that you guys are hopping on as well. >> You bet. It is the wave of the future. Now, like all waves of the future, it's going to take time. Containers work entirely differently from VMs and from machines in terms of how they utilize resources inside a data center environment, and they are extraordinarily dynamic. They require the ability to build up, tear down connections to storage, and create storage, and spin it down at very, very rapid rates, and again, it's all API-driven. It's all responsive, not to human operators, but it's got to be responsive to the application itself and to the orchestration environment. And again, I'll go back to what we talked about with our Modern Data Experience. It's exactly the kind of experience that our customers want to be able to be that responsive to this new environment. >> My last question is from John Furrier. He asked me, "Hey, Charlie knows a lot about networking." We were talking about multi-cloud. Obviously cross-cloud networks are going to become increasingly important. People are trying to get rid of their MPLS networks, really moving to an SD-WAN environment. Your thoughts on the evolution of networking over the next decade. >> Well, I'll tell you. I'm a big believer that even SD-WANs, over time, are going to become obsolete. Another way to phrase it is the new private network is the internet. I mean look at it now. What does SD-WAN mean when nobody's in the local office, right? No one's in the remote office; they're all at home. And so now we need to think about the fact... Sometimes it's called Zero Trust. I don't like that term. Nobody wants to talk about zero anything. What it really is about is that there is no internal network anymore. The fact of the matter is even for... Let's say I'm inside my own company's network. Well, do they trust my machine? Maybe not. They may trust me but not my machine, and so what we need to have is going to a cloud model where all communication to all servers goes through a giant, call it a firewall or a proxy service, where everything is cleaned before it's delivered. People, individuals only get, and applications, only get access to the applications that they're authorized to use, not to a network, because once they're in the network they can get anywhere. So they should only get access to the applications they're able to use. So my personal opinion is the internet is the future private network, and that requires a very different methodology for authentication for security and so forth, and if we think that we protect ourselves now by firewalls, we have to rethink that. >> Great perspectives. And by the way, you're seeing more than glimpses of that. You look at Zscaler's results recently, and that's kind of the security cloud, and I'm glad you mentioned that you don't like that sort of Zero Trust. You guys, even today, talked about near zero RPO. That's an honest statement-- >> Right. >> Because there's no such thing as zero RPO. (chuckling) >> Right, yeah. >> Charlie, great to have you on. Thanks so much for coming back in theCUBE. Great to see you again. >> Dave, always a pleasure. Thank you so much, and hopefully next time in person. >> I hope so. All right, and thank you for watching, everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, and we'll see you next time. (smooth music)

>> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, it's theCUBE, covering IBM Think. Brought to you by IBM. >> Hi everybody, welcome back. This is Dave Vellante, and you're watching theCUBE's coverage of IBM Think 2020, the digital version of IBM Think and theCUBE is pleased to be providing the wall-to-wall coverage as we have physically for so many years at big IBM events. Jesus Mantas is here, he's the managing partner for Global Strategy for IBM and the Global Business Services. Jesus, great to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Great to be here, Dave. >> So, every guest that we've talked to this week, really, we've talked about COVID but just briefly. Here, we're going to do a bigger drill down and really try to get, Jesus your perspectives as an IBM's point of view on what's going on here. So let me start with, we've never seen anything like this before, obviously. I mean, there are some examples you got to go back to 1918, try to get some similarities, but 1918 is a long long time ago, so, what's different about this? What are the similarities? >> Yeah, it's, you know what Mark Twain used to say that history doesn't repeat, but it often rhymes. I think there are similarities of what we are experiencing right now in this pandemic with other pandemics like Spanish flu. I think the situation is unique in terms of the impact, and the synchronicity of that impact, right? So we can go back, whether if you want, economic crisis, or our society crisis, where you have either one country or one aspect being disrupted. But this is really society being interrupted, on a global scale. So its impact is unprecedented in that perspective in modern time, and I think all of us are adjusting to it. >> I want to ask you about digital transformation, because I've made the point that, while a lot of people talk digital transformation, there's been a lot of complacency, people say, not my lifetime, we're a bank, we're making a lot of money, we're doing okay. How do you think COVID-19 will sort of change that complacency and really accelerate digital transformation as a mindset and actually turn it into action? >> Yeah, I think the best way to put it is digital transformation five months ago was about obtaining competitive advantage and digital transformation today in many industries is about survival. That is how big of a change it is. The need for efficiency and cost savings, the need for resiliency that we have talked about, the need to be able to drive agility, to be able to switch and adapt, the need to make hyper local decisions, right, to use data, none of that can be done unless you have fully digitized processes, you are consuming local data and you have trained the people to really operate in those new, more intelligent processes. So, it has gone from optionality is okay, you can do okay but if you digitize you're going to do better to unless you digitize your business may not exist next year. I think that's the change, the change is, I think now is widely understood that the majority of our digitization processes have to be accelerated, and I would say there is a great statistic that when we go back in history, and there has been many, as I mentioned, of this crisis. You can look back at the two behaviors that businesses have, one is, to play defense and then what happens two years later, and the other one is, okay, you defense but you immediately switch to offense and then what happens two year later. Those companies that use this time to just defend and hunker down, history said in a couple of years later, 21% of them outperform. But those businesses that they shift from defense to offense and actually accelerate in these cases, programs like digitalization, 37% outperform. So, there is a premium for businesses that right now actually immediately switch to offense, focus on this set of digitalization and empowering cloud, managing data, ensuring the skills of the people, they're more likely not only to survive, but thrive in the next few years than those that just use this time to defend. >> To your point, it's about survival, it's not about, not getting disrupted, 'cause you're going to get disrupted, it's almost a certainty, and so in order to survive, you've got to digitally transform. Your final thoughts on digital transformation, then I want to ask you if there's a silver lining in all this. >> I think, what we do, we can't change the context. But we cannot let the context define who we are either as individuals or as company. What we can do, is to choose how do we act on that context. I would say, those organizations and those individuals that take advantage of the situation to understand that some of these behaviors are going to change, understand that the more that we shift technology to the cloud, the more that we shift work close to the cloud, the more that we use technologies like artificial intelligence and drive nonlinear decisions that massively optimize everything we do from the way that we deliver health care, to the way that we manage supply chains, to the way that we secure food, frankly, to the way that we protect the environment, there is a silver lining that technology it is one of those solutions that can help in all of these areas, and the silver lining of this is, hopefully, let's use this time to get better prepared for the next pandemia, to get better prepared for the next crisis, to implement technologies that drive efficiency faster, that create new jobs, that protect the environment, and while we cannot change the fact that we have COVID-19, we can change what happens after COVID-19, so what we return to is something better that what we enter before COVID-19. >> Very thoughtful commentary, Jesus. Thank you so much for coming on theCUBE, blessings to your family and yourself. >> Appreciated Dave, thank you, and thank you for everything you do to keep everybody informed. >> Really a pleasure. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of IBM Think 2020 the digital event, to be right back right after the short break. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> Hello everybody, welcome to this special CUBE conversation. My name is Dave Vellante and you're watching theCUBE. We're here with Sanjay Poonen who's the COO of VMware and a good friend of theCUBE. Sanjay great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Dave it's a pleasure. In these new circumstances, shelter at home and remote working. I hope you and your family are doing well. >> Yeah, and back at you Sanjay. Of course I saw you on Kramer Mad Money the other night. I was jealous. I said, "I need Sanjay on to get an optimism injection." You're a great leader And I think, a role model for all of us. And of course the "Go Niners" in the background really incented me to get-- I got my Red Sox cap and we have a lack of sports, but, and we miss it, But hey, we're making the best. >> Okay Red Sox is better than the Patriots. Although I love the Patriots. If i was in the east coast, especially now that Brady's gone. I guess you guys are probably ruing a little bit that Jimmy G came to us. >> I am a huge Tampa Bay fan all of a sudden. I be honest with you. Tom Brady can become a Yankee and I would root for them. I tell you that's how much I love the guy. But anyway, I'm really excited to have you on. It's obviously as you mentioned, these times are tough, but we're making the best do and it's great to see you. You are a huge optimist, but I want to ask you, I want to start with Narendra Modi just announced, basically a lockdown for 21 days. 1.3 billion people in your native country. I wonder if you could give us some, some thoughts on that. >> I'm, my parents live half their time in Bangalore and half here. They happen to be right now in the US, and they're doing well. My dad's 80 and my mom's 77. I go to India a lot. I spent about 18 years of my life there, and the last 32 odd years here and I still go there a lot. Have a lots friends and my family there. And , it's I'm glad that the situation is kind of , as best as they can serve it. It's weird, I was watching some of the social media photos of Bangalore. I tweeted this out last night. The roads look so clean and beautiful. I mean, it looks like 40 years ago when I was growing up. When I would take a bicycle to school. I mean Bangalore's one of the most beautiful cities in India, very green and you can kind of see it all again. And I think, as I've been watching some of the satellite photos of the various big cities to just watch sort of Mother Nature. Obviously, we're in a tough time and, I open my empathy and thoughts and prayers go to every family that's affected by this. And certainly ones who have lost loved ones, but it's sort of, I think it's neat, that we're starting to see some of the beautiful aspects of nature. Even as we deal with the tough aspects of sheltered home. And the incredible tough impacts of this pandemic across the world. >> Yeah, I think you're right. There is a silver lining as much as, our hearts go out to those that are that are suffering. You're seeing the canals in Venice run clear. As you mentioned, the nitrous oxide levels over China. what's going on in Bangalore. So, there is a little bit of light in the end of the tunnel for the environment, I hope. and at least there's an indication that we maybe, need to be more sensitized to this. Okay, let's get into it. I want to ask you, so last week in our breaking analysis. We worked with a data company called ETR down in New York City. They do constant surveys of CIO's. I want to read you something that they came out with just on Monday and get your reaction. Basically, their annual growth and IT spend they're saying, is showing a slight decline for 2020. As a significant number of organizations plan to cut and/or delay IT expenditures due to the coronavirus. Though the current climate may suggest worse many organizations are accelerating spending for 2020 as they ramp up their work-from-home infrastructure. These organizations are offsetting what would otherwise be a notable decline in global IT spend versus last year. Now we've gone from the 4% consensus at the beginning of the year. ETR brought it down to zero percent and then just on Monday, they went to slight negative. But, what's not been reported widely is the somewhat offsetting factor of work-from-home infrastructure. VMware obviously plays there. So I wonder if you could comment on what you're seeing. >> Yeah, Dave, I think , we'll have to see . I'm not an economic pundit. So we're going to have to see what the, IT landscape looks like in the overall sense and we'll probably play off GDP. Certain industries: travel, hospitality, I mean, it's brutal for them. I mean, and I hope that, what I really hope, that's going to happen to that industry, especially there's an infusion through recovery type of bill. Is that no real big company goes under, and goes bankrupt. I mean kind of the situation in 2008. I mean, people wondering what will happen to the Airlines. Boeing, hospital-- these are ic-- some of them like Boeing are iconic brands of the United States and of the world. There's only two real companies that make planes. So we've got to make sure that those industries stay afloat and stay good for the health of the world. Health of the US economy, jobs, and so on. That's always one end. Listen, health and safety of our employees always comes first. Before we even think about that. I always tell people the profits of VMware will wait if you are not well, if your loved ones not well, if your going to take care of people, take care of that first. We will be fine. This too shall pass. But if you're healthy, let's turn our attention because we're not going to just sit at home and play games. We're going to serve our customers. How do we do that? A lot of our customers are adjusting to this new normal. As a result, they have to either order devices with a laptop, screens, things of those kinds, to allow a work-from-home environment to be as close to productive as they work environment. So I expect that there will be a surge in the, sort of, end points that people need. I will have to see how Dell and HP and Lenovo, but I expect that they will probably see some surge in their laptops. As people, kind of, want those in the home and hopefully their supply chains are able to respond. But then with every one of those endpoints and screens that we need now for these types of organizations. You need to manage them, end point management. Often, you need virtual desktops on them. You need to end point security and then in some cases you will probably need, if it's a remote office, branch office, and into the home office, network security and app acceleration. So those Solutions, end point management, Workspace ONE, inclusive of a full-fledged virtual desktop capability That's our product Workspace ONE. Endpoint Securities, Carbon Black and the Network Platform NSX being software-defined was relegated for things like, load balancers and SDWAN capabilities and it's kind of almost feels like good, that we got those solutions, the last three, four years through acquisitions, in many cases. I mean, of course, Airwatch and Nicira were six, seven, eight years ago. But even SD-WAN, we acquired Velocloud three and a half years ago, Carbon Black just four months ago, and Avi in the last year. Those are all parts of that kind of portfolio now, and I feel we were able to, as customers come to us we're not going in ambulance-chasing. But as customers come to us and say, "What do you have as a work-at-home "for business continuity?" We're able to offer them a solution. So we did a webcast earlier this week. Where we talked about, we're calling it work in home with business continuity. It's led with our EUC offerings Workspace ONE. Accompanied by Carbon Black to secure that, and then underneath it, will obviously be the cloud foundation and our Network capabilities of NSX. >> Yeah, so I want to double down on that because it was not, the survey results, showed it was not just collaboration tools. Like Zoom and WebEx and gotomeeting Etc. It was, as you're pointing out, it was other infrastructure that was of VPN's. It was Network bandwidth. It was virtualization, security because they need to secure that work-from-home infrastructure. So a lot of sort of, ancillary activity. It was surprising to me, when I saw the data, that 21% of the CIO's that we surveyed, said that they actually plan on spending more in 2020 because of these factors. And so now we're tracking that daily. And the sentiment changes daily. I showed some other data that showed the CIO sentiment through March. Every day of the survey it dropped. Okay, so it's prudent to be cautious. But nonetheless, people to your point aren't just sitting on their hands. They're not standing still. They're moving to support this new work-from-home normal. >> Yeah, I mean listen, I forgot to say that, Yeah, we are using the video collaboration tools. Zoom a lot. We use Slack. We'll use Teams. So we are, those are accompanied. We were actually one of the first customers to use Zoom. I'm a big fan of my friend Eric Yuan and what they're doing there in modernizing, making it available on a mobile device. Just really fast. They've been very responsive and they reciprocated by using Workspace ONE there. We've been doing ads joined to VMware and zoom in the market for the last several years. So we're a big fan of their technology. So far be it from me to proclaim that the only thing you need here's VMware. There's a lot of other things on the stack. I think the best way, Dave, for us that we've sought to do this is again, I'm very sensitive to not ambulance-chase, which is, kind of go after this. To do it authentically, and the way that authentically is to be, I think Satya Nadella put this pretty well in an interview he did yesterday. Be a first responder to the first responder. A digital first responder, if I could. So when the, our biggest customers are hospital and school and universities and retailers and pharmacies. These are some of our biggest customers. They are looking, in some cases, actually hire more people to serve their communities and customers. And every one of them, as they , hire new people and so and so on, will I just naturally coming to us and when they come to us, serve them. And it's been really gratifying Dave. If I could read you the emails I've been getting the last few days. I got one from a very prominent City, the United States, the mayor's office, the CTO, just thanking us and our people. For being available who are being careful not to, we're being very sensitive to the pricing. To making sure customers don't feel like, in any way, that we're looking at the economics of it will always come just serve your customer. I got an email yesterday from a very large pharmacy. Routinely we were talking to folks in the, in the healthcare industry. University, a president of a school. In fact, Southern New Hampshire University, who I mentioned Jim Cramer. Sent me a note saying, "hey, we're really grateful you even mentioned our name." and I'm not doing this because, Southern New Hampshire University is doing an incredible job of moving a lot of their platform to online to help tens of thousands. And they were one of the early customers to adopt virtual desktops, and the cloud desktops, and the services. So, as we call. So in any of these use cases, I just tell our employees, "Be authentic. "First off take care of your families. "It's really important to take care of your own health and safety. But once you've done that, be authentic in serving our customers." That's what VR has always done. From the days of dying green, to bombers, to Pat, and all of us here now. Take care of our customers and we'll be fine. >> Yeah, and I perfectly understand your sensitivity to that notion of ambulance-chasing and I'm by no means trying to bait you into doing that. But I would stress, the industry needs you and the tech it-- many in the tech industry, like VMware, have very strong balance sheets. They're extremely viable companies and we as a community, as an industry, need companies like VMware to step up, be flexible on pricing, and terms, and payment, and things like that nature. Which it sounds like you're doing. Because the heroes that are on the front lines, they're fighting a battle every day, every hour, every minute and they need infrastructure to be able to work remotely with the stay-at-home mandates. >> I think that's right. And listen, let me talk a little bit of one of the things you talked about. Which is financing and we moved a lot of our business to increasingly, to the cloud. And SaaS and subscription services are a lot more radical than offer license and maintenance. We make that choice available to customers, in many cases we lead with cloud-first solutions. And then we also have financing services from our partners like Dell financial services that really allow a more gradual, radibal payment. Do people want financing? And , I think if there are other scenarios. Jim asked me on his show, "What will you do if one of your companies go bankrupt?" I don't know, that's an unprecedented, we didn't have, we had obviously, the financial crisis. I wasn't here at VMware during the dot-com blow up where companies just went bankrupt in 2000. I was at Informatica at the time. So, I'm sure we will see some unprecedented-- but I will tell you, we have a very fortunate to be profitable, have a good balance sheet. Whatever scenario, if we take care of our customers, I mean, we have been very fortunate to be one of the highest NPS, Net promoter scorer, companies in the industry. And , I've been reaching out to many of our top customers. Just a courtesy, without any agenda other than, we're just checking in. A friend in need is a friend indeed. It's a line that I remembered. And just reach out your customers. Hey listen. Checking in. No, other than can we help you, if there's anything and thank you, especially for ones who are retailers, pharmacies, hospitals, first responders. Thank them for what they're doing to serve many of their people. Especially people in retail. Think about the people who have to go into warehouses to service us, to deliver the stuff that comes to our home. I mean, these people are potentially at risk, but they do it. Put on masks. Braving health situations. That often need the paycheck. We're very grateful for that, and our hope is that this world situation, listen, I mentioned it on on TV as a kind of a little bit of a traffic jam. I love to ski and when I go off and to Tahoe, I tell my family, "I don't know how long it's going to take." with check up on Waze or Google Maps and usually takes four hours, no traffic. Every now and then it'll take five, six, seven. Worst case eight. I had some situation, never happen to me but some of my friends would just got stuck there and had to sleep in their car. But it's pretty much the case, you will eventually get there. I was talking to my dad, who is 80, and he's doing well. And he said, this feels a little bit like World War Two because you're kind of, in many places there. They had a bunker, shelter. Not just shelter in place, but bunker shelter in that time. But that lasted, whatever five, six years. I don't think this is going to last five, six years. It may be five, six months. It might be a whole year. I don't know. I can guarantee it's not going to be six years. So it won't be as bad as World War two. It certainly won't be as bad as the Spanish Flu. Which took 39 people and two percent of the world. Including five percent of my country, India in the 1918 to 1920 period, a hundred years ago. So we will get through this. I like, we shall overcome. I'm not going to sing it for you. It's one of my favorite Louis Armstrong songs, but find ways by which you encourage, uplift people. Making sure, it is tough, it is very tough times and we have to make sure that we get through this. That jobs are preserved as best as we can because that's the part I'm really, really concerned about. The loss of jobs and how we're going to recover as US economy, but we will make it through this. >> Yeah, and I want to sort of second what you're saying. That look, I know there are a lot of people at home that going a little bit stir crazy and this, the maybe a little bit of depression setting in. But to your point, we have to be empathic for those that are suffering. The elderly, who are in intensive care and also those frontline workers. And then I love your optimism. We will get through this. This is not the Spanish Flu. We have, it's a different world, a different technology world. Our focus, like many other small businesses is, we obviously want to survive. We want to maintain our full employment. We want to serve our customers and we, as you, believe that that is the recipe for getting through this. And so, I love the optimism. >> And listen, and we can help be a part of my the moment you texted me and said, "Hey, can I be in your show?" If it helps you drive, whatever you need, sponsorship revenue, advertising. I'm here and the same thing for all of our friends who have to adjust the way in which the wo-- we want to be there to help them. And I've chosen as best as I can, in terms of how I can support my family, the sort of five, five of us at home now. All fighting over bandwidth, the three kids, and my wife, and I. To be positive with them, to be in my social media presence, as best as possible. Every day to be positive in what I tweet out to the world And point people to a hope of what's going to come. I don't know how long this is going to last. But I can tell you. I mean, just the fact that you and I are talking over video interview. High fidelity, reasonably high fidelity, high bandwidth. The ability to connect. I mean it is a whole lot better than a lot of what happened in World War 2 or the Spanish flu. And I hope at the end of it, some of us, some of this will forever change our life. I hope for for example in a lot of our profession. We have to travel to visit customers. And now that I'm building some of these relationships virtually. I hope that maybe my travel percentage will drop. It's actually good for the environment, good for my family life. But if we can lower that percentage, still get things done through Zoom calls, and Workspace ONE, and things of those kinds, that would be awesome. So that's how I think about the way in which I'm adapting my life. And then I set certain personal goals. This year, for example, we're expanding a lot of our focus in security. We have a billion dollar security business and we're looking to grow that NSX, Common Black, Workspace ONE, and accompanying tools and I made it a goal to try and meet at all my sales teams. A thousand C-ISOs. I mean off I know a lot of CIO's in the 25 years, I've had, maybe five, six thousand of them in the world. And blessed to build that relationship over the years of my SAP and VMware experience, but I don't know. I mean, I knew probably 50 or 100. Maybe a few hundred CISO's. And now that we have a portfolio it's relevant to grant them and I think very compelling across network security and End Point security. We own the companies with such a strong portfolio in both those areas. I'm reaching out to them and I'm happy to tell you, I connected, I've got the names of 1,000 of the top CISO's in the Fortune 1000, Global 2000, and connecting with many of them through LinkedIn and other mixers. I hope I talked to many of them through the course of the year. And many of them will be virtual conversations. Again, just to talk to them about being a trusted advisor to us. Seeing if we can help them. And then of course, there will be a product pitch for NSX and Carbon Black and how we're different from whoever it is, Palo Alto and F5 and Netscaler and the SD line players or semantic McAfee Crowdstrike. We're differentiated so I want to certainly earn some of the business. But these are ways in which you adjust to a virtual kind of economy. Where I'm not having to physically go and meet them. >> Yeah, and we share your optimism and those CISO's are, they're heroes, superheroes on the front line. I'll tell ya a quick aside. So John Furrier and I, we're in Barcelona. When really, the coronavirus came to our heightened awareness and John looked at me and said, "Dave we've been doing digital for 10 years. "We have to take all of the software that we've developed, "all these assets and help our customers pivot." So we share that optimism and we're actually lucky to be able to have the studios and be able to have these conversations with you guys. So again, we share that, that optimism. I want to ask you, just on guidance. A lot of companies have come out and said we're not giving guidance anymore. I didn't see anything relative to VMware. Have you guys announced anything on guidance in terms of how you're going to communicate? Where are you at with that? >> No, I think we're just, I mean listen, we take this very carefully because of reg FD and the regulations of public company. So we just allow the normal quarterly ins. And of outside of that, if our CFO decides they may. But right now we're just continuing business as usual. We're in the middle of our, kind of, whatever, middle of our quarter. Quarter ends April. So work hard do the best we can in all the regions, be available for all of our teams. Pat, myself, and others we're, to the extent that we're healthy and we're doing well, but thank God, is reach out to CISO's and CIO's and CTO's and CEOs and help them. And I believe people will spend money. The questions we have to go over. And I think the stronger will survive. The companies with better balance sheet and unfortunately, some of the weaker companies won't. And I think quite frankly, if you do your job well. I don't mean this in any negative sense. The stronger companies will take share in these environments. I was watching a segment for John Chambers. He has been through a number of different, when I know him, so an I have, I've talked to him about some of the stuff. He will tell you that he, advises is a lot of his companies now. From the experiences he saw in 2008, 2001, in many of the crisis and supply chain issues. This is a time where leadership counts. The strong get stronger. Never waste a good crisis, as Winston Churchill said. And as you do that, the strong will come strong because you figure out ways by which, if you're going to make changes that were planned for one or two years from now. Maybe a good time to make them is now. And as you do that you communicate a vision for where you're going. Very clearly to your employees. Again incessantly over and over again. They, hopefully, are able to repeat it in their own words in a simple fashion, and then you get all of your employees in our case 30,000 plus employees of VMware lined up. So one of the things that we've been doing a lot of these days is communicate, communicate, communicate, internally. I've talked a lot about our communication with customer. But inside, our employees, we do calls with our top leaders over Zoom. Calls, intimate calls, and many, often we're adjusting to where I'll say a few words. I have a mandatory every two week goal with all of my senior most leaders. I'll speak for about five minutes and then for the next 25 minutes, the top 12, 15 of them I listen. To things, I want all of them to speak up. There's nobody who should stay silent, because I want to hear what's going on in that corner of the world. >> But fantastic Sanjay. Well, I mean, Boeing, I heard this morning's going to get some support from the government. And strategically that's very important for our country. Congress finally passed, looks like they're passing that bill, and support which is awesome. It's been, especially for all these small businesses that are struggling and want to maintain full employment. I heard Steve Mnuchin the other day saying, "Look, we're talking about two months of payroll "for people if they agree to keep people employed. "or hire them back." I mean the Fed. people say, oh the FED is out of arrows. The Feds, not out of arrows. I mean, I'm not an economist either. But the Fed. has a lot of bullets in their gun, as they say. So Sanjay, thanks so much. You're an awesome leader and really an inspirational executive and a good friend so thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Dave, always a pleasure. Please say hi to all of my friends, your co-anchors, and the staff at CUBE. Thank them for all their hard work. It's a pleasure to talk to you this morning. I wish you, your family, and your friends and all of our community, stay safe and be well. >> Thank you Sanjay and thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for the cube and we'll see you next time. (soft music)